Debunking "Bible vs Book of Mormon" – Joel Kramer’s Old Anti-Mormon Video Destroyed

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[00:00:00]No wonder these people hate us and when we show up to these Christian conferences, they literally treat us as though a leper just walked into the Roman Colosseum or something. Have disagreement if you want. It just goes to show that if you're trying to present oh the Bible like it's airtight the art the archaeology is all there all the ducks are in a row. Meanwhile the Book of Mormon has nothing. Uh you're wrong not only about the Book of Mormon but you're also wrong about the Bible. How do you ride something that's a little bit bigger than a dog in the battle? It it Uh what what?

[00:00:31]He's supposed to be the expert on this.

[00:00:33]>> Yeah. He's supposed to be the LDS anthropologist.

[00:00:36]Yeah, he's not LDS. Oh no, he's not. He is not an LDS scholar.

[00:00:43]What? This episode is brought to you by Tiny 3D Temples. For more information on Tiny 3D Temples, please make sure you check out the links in the description.

[00:00:54]Welcome ladies and gentlemen back to World Radio. I am your host Cardell Estime. I'm joined in the studio by Luke Hansen Doctrine and Covenants. And we're going to be reacting to Um what is this?

[00:01:05]It's a video titled You know >> Debunking the Bible versus the Book of Mormon. So are we debunking a debunking here? What are we doing here?

[00:01:13]Oh yeah. We are debunking a video titled The Bible versus The Book of Mormon.

[00:01:18]Okay. If you are watching on YouTube, this looks like early 2000s HD VHS. I'm loving it.

[00:01:26]>> you are there. But can you guess the year? What year is this? Oh man. For those listening on radio, um judging by his shirt, I would say 2004.

[00:01:42]Dude, 2005. Not bad.

[00:01:44]>> Oh shut up.

[00:01:45]>> have recorded it in 2004. Yeah, so you're like right on. But the the reason why we are going to this is actually because this video was recommended to me by somebody like "Oh, you need to learn the facts of your religion." And they sent me a link to this video, which actually doesn't happen very often. So, the fact that this is being sent around is kind of crazy.

[00:02:07]Do you remember when we debunked the Bible versus Joseph Smith? Yeah, was it the same guy? Mhm. Yeah, the same group.

[00:02:13]>> Oh, interesting.

[00:02:15]>> posted this video to YouTube about 2 years ago, and it has like 350,000 views.

[00:02:21]In addition to all the views, it apparently it was so big at the time that FAIR Latter-day Saints Fairly LDS put out their own debunking video of it.

[00:02:33]Really?

[00:02:34]>> the whole panel of Sorensen and and Scott Peterson and all these guys. We're going to look at that a little bit later, their response to it. But, yeah, big deal back then apparently, and even still a big deal today with hundreds of thousands of views. And it's silly. It is a silly silly video.

[00:02:54]We're We're going to see what they're up to here.

[00:02:56]>> Well, look, I'm not trying to be presentist here, all right? But, I must say, when it is filmed in 4 by 3, when it is filmed in 4 by 3, and it still gets a half million views as an anti-Mormon production, I'm not going to say it's a recycled trope. But, 4 by 3 aspect ratio is about as recycled as it can get. You might as well give me an eight-track player at this point. And Pre-YouTube, baby. Okay.

[00:03:23]>> of our audience like doesn't even remember 2004 at this point.

[00:03:26]>> Yeah, that's interesting. Okay. So, are we just going to dive right in here? And >> I put the premise of the video right in the intro. We have about 6 minutes of the hour and 20-minute long documentary to go through.

[00:03:39]And so, yeah, we can just hit play and let them introduce us to the video.

[00:03:43]>> Okay. Awesome. Okay, so here it goes from the very beginning. We got Scott R.

[00:03:47]Johnson. Oh, it's this guy.

[00:03:51]Oh, this guy has a fun YouTube channel on biblical Yeah.

[00:03:57]>> like interviewed the real Latter-Day Saint that sounded suspiciously like not a real Latter-Day Saint.

[00:04:03]>> the nicest, sweetest man in Mormonism to agree to an interview that probably knew the least about this subject of anybody in the entire church and then put him on blast in front of millions >> Little bit of a little bit of spoiler warning, this video commits a similar error to to that video.

[00:04:20]>> Oh, okay. I love how seriously these cats take themselves. Look at that. You think he's interviewing, you know, the police that beat Rodney King in like 1996 or something. Look at this. Okay, so here we go >> Yeah, let's hit it.

[00:04:34]>> from the very beginning The Bible versus the Book of Mormon, a closer examination. In our interviews, we ask the same questions about both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

[00:04:46]In all, we conducted nearly 40 interviews throughout the United States and in six different countries around the world.

[00:04:52]And we were investigating one simple question. Is the Book of Mormon comparable to the Bible?

[00:04:58]There's no map.

[00:05:00]>> Okay. So, Okay, okay.

[00:05:02]>> That's that's the video. There That's the video.

[00:05:04]>> And but what we're going to find is that they're just going to ask certain questions. Questions designed to make the Bible look as good as possible and the Book of Mormon to look as bad as possible and then they ignore all other relevant questions.

[00:05:18]And yeah, as you as you hit they have their panel of experts in here. So, if you just hit play, we will see what one of the first experts they have. Okay.

[00:05:27]This is going to be awesome. Let's see what he's got to say. Go.

[00:05:29]>> Bible There's no map. Now, take a notice of his name.

[00:05:33]>> Mormon Okay.

[00:05:35]>> Wilson and it says LDS anthropologist.

[00:05:39]Yeah, he's not LDS.

[00:05:41]Oh, no, he's not? He is not an LDS scholar.

[00:05:47]Uh-uh. What?

[00:05:49]They got away with Okay, wait, wait, wait. Is he once upon a time LDS?

[00:05:55]>> No, no, at the time. So, um Fair I I think it was Brant Gardner.

[00:05:59]Let me Let me double-check here, but yeah, Fair put out a debunking of this, like a whole written out thing in addition to the documentary that they did. And yeah, he's not an LDS scholar.

[00:06:12]Wait a second. Okay, I want to make sure that I understand this right. A video on YouTube in 4x3 format shot by this guy right here in the blue shirt. Uh you said what was his name, Kramer?

[00:06:25]>> Joel Kramer. So, this cat, Joel Kramer makes a hit piece video on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka Mormonism. Where the first person I see him citing after Scott R. Johnson, producer of Living Hope Ministries is a supposed quote LDS anthropologist or Mormon anthropologist from Northern University, William Wilson, who's about to dump on the Book of Mormon and say there's no map, right? That's the only sound bite I saw. I have not seen this video yet. So, you've seen it, you've prepped the debunking. Me, I'm just reacting, doing some little bit of comedic relief. But you're telling me that William Wilson, his first person cited in this video is not at all what that lower third said, an LDS anthropologist.

[00:07:14]Yeah.

[00:07:15]That is such a dereliction of journalistic duty.

[00:07:19]>> Now, if if you hit play, so we'll listen to what these guys say. If you hit play, they actually do have a and this time a real LDS I forget what he is. He archaeologist, anthropologist, he'll tell us. But they do have one real one.

[00:07:32]And then whoever was editing this thing decided to Dude, like no wonder these people hate us. No wonder these people hate us and when we show up to these Christian conferences, they literally treat us as though a leper just walked into the Roman Coliseum or something.

[00:07:50]Because of just just content like this. Man.

[00:07:56]So, all right, we'll just we'll just we'll just keep going. Man, I can't believe this. Let's go. The Bible.

[00:08:03]There's no map showing the Book of Mormon lands because they can't place it on Earth.

[00:08:14]They don't know where it is.

[00:08:16]I'm trying to give these people grace.

[00:08:18]Is he trying to say LDS anthropologist in the sense that he's trying to say an anthropologist that's studying Latter-day Saints so much he considers himself a Latter-day Saint or an anthropologist of Latter-day Saints?

[00:08:33]Like >> There's the possibility that earlier in his life he was but they're representing it at any rate he is not at the point of this video.

[00:08:43]>> in LDS archaeology and I've never seen this guy before and I've been a lifetime member. So, at this point I'm thinking it is at best misleading, at worst just plain old factually false.

[00:08:55]So, okay, let's keep going.

[00:08:58]What about all these illustrated maps you see for the Book of Mormon lands? I mean, why don't they agree with one another and I guess more important than that, why don't they correspond to any real landmass on Earth? Okay, first off, why don't they agree with one another?

[00:09:11]The internal geography of the Book of Mormon is so cohesive.

[00:09:15]>> with the text.

[00:09:17]That's That's like, well, I but the city is like 5 in higher on this one than on the other one. It's like Okay, but they all agree with the text and that's where they come from. It's like Well, also the internal the internal geography of the Book of Mormon is bulletproof.

[00:09:34]Like there's no way that somebody just made this up on the fly. 500 references or something. Well, and even little details that you wouldn't even really think about like up and down to signify elevation change which is consistently used correctly in the geography we do know in the old world with Jerusalem.

[00:09:51]But then when you put it into the new world, you find it's once again consistent throughout and also shows you unique geographic features like north flowing rivers with the river of Sidon.

[00:10:01]Yeah. That stay consistent throughout.

[00:10:03]Also, I hate it when members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka Mormons, get lampooned for being a record keeping people.

[00:10:11]Okay. They always try and quote mine anti-Mormons always and by the way it doesn't mean if you do not believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you're anti-Mormon. It depends on how you engage with it. If you're constantly cynically trying to quote mine pri- quote mine primary sources to make somebody look stupid then that's anti-Mormonism, okay? And I hate it when we get punished for being a good record keeping people as we are commanded in scripture. And then like these well-intentioned pioneers that recorded their folklore all of a sudden get lampooned as like doctrinally innovating the idea that Bigfoot was Cain or something like that. It's it's the most cynical and cruel thing and then also I don't like it when members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, especially our leadership, they're big time into orthopraxy meaning it doesn't matter where the Garden of Eden is as long as you understand the fall. It doesn't matter where the the mount of the Sermon on the Mount was as long as you actually apply the Beatitudes to your daily life and mourn with those that mourn comfort those that stand in need of comfort. You know, and so when they make the maps manifesting the internal geography of the Book of Mormon I don't agree with this take, okay, but in order to avoid conflict over where it happened and in order to facilitate talking about what happened, they purposely try and keep the maps generic not looking like any specific landmass. So, the people that think it happened in Mesoamerica, uh you know, um above the I don't know, whatever river, don't argue with the people that think that oh no, it was 30 mi to the west. All right, that they're trying to diffuse contention, not create it. And and that should be respected for what it is. I I I I think a beautiful thing. Uh your thoughts before we continue. You see them presenting things in the most uncharitable way towards the Book of Mormon like, "Whoa, they don't even agree with each other." Yeah. By the way, good luck good luck talking >> the early maps that they made of the Americas and how like completely wacky like Florida's this giant thing sticking out sometimes it's not even there. It's a huge bulge, it's very skinny. Like, go back and look at them. Does that mean that the New World didn't exist cuz the maps didn't agree with each other? Have you seen biblical maps? Talk to biblical archaeologists.

[00:12:28]None of them agree where the Garden of Eden was, what ziggurat was the Tower of Babel. None of them.

[00:12:35]Yeah.

[00:12:37]All right, here we go.

[00:12:38]You can't have a geography because there is no real world setting for the events described in the Book of Mormon. We can't agree upon it because anytime we attempt to try to put it in a real world setting, we have to distort either that real world setting or the text itself. Oh, do Garden of Eden next.

[00:12:56]Do the Garden of Eden next, bro.

[00:12:58]That's silly. It's poisoning the well.

[00:13:01]It's like, don't look further into this.

[00:13:02]Like, we already know the reason why they can't find it. Yeah, let's just press play. Let's keep going. Okay. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes no official position on the geography of the Book of Mormon. Yeah, most churches take no official position.

[00:13:15]>> good academic practice to not take a firm position on something while you're still collecting all the data. It's just kind of like a normal thing to do.

[00:13:23]It's almost a good thing.

[00:13:24]>> Yeah.

[00:13:25]And this thing came out in 2005. Like of all people, people in 2005 should know that we don't actually know that much about Mesoamerica. Wow, this is interesting.

[00:13:36]Okay.

[00:13:37]>> Yeah. let's keep going. One of the reasons for this is obvious.

[00:13:41]Is that the events never took place anywhere.

[00:13:44]The Jews still exist today, both in the countries to which they were exiled and in the land of Israel.

[00:13:50]All of the civilizations surrounding Palestine have also been well established through archaeology. And Yeah, you're right. Except for there's only like 900 Samaritans left. And it doesn't look like their numbers are really growing from what they were anciently. If if the Samaritan culture goes extinct for lack of a better term, are you going to say that it never existed, too? Like they always end up arguing like atheists or like Sadducees, not like Christians. And it is so absolutely disappointing. History. The remains of the ancient Greek and Roman empires, which are written about in the Bible, are clearly visible throughout the old world.

[00:14:29]Likewise, the Book of Mormon also records the existence of empires in the New World.

[00:14:34]>> Okay. Mhm. We get the Jaredite civilization in the Book of Ether a promise that they will become >> Okay, here's another guy referenced as an LDS anthropologist.

[00:14:45]So he actually is. And he's the same guy Now he's the same guy that's standing in front of like Mayan ruins uh previous that we already saw in the video. So they do have one actual one, yeah. Okay, interesting. Okay.

[00:14:59]Here we go. He continues. the Book of Ether a promise that they will become the greatest nation in the world. Uh this greatest nation on Earth.

[00:15:09]I love the videography. So you find Let's just pick a random place that doesn't have a building and film it like that's where the Jaredites were supposed to be. Oh, no. Where are they? Okay.

[00:15:19]It's like you go to parts of California, the most populated state in California and I mean in the US and you could find big open empty spaces to film like I thought there was supposed to be 30 million people here. Where did they go?

[00:15:33]Guess it's a conspiracy. Dude, by the way, can we all please can we all please just take a moment to recognize this man's necktie?

[00:15:44]Like that right there It's a very 2005.

[00:15:47]>> Yes, that's very actually 1998.

[00:15:51]Well, yeah, but you keep it in your closet for like 10 years. Most of my ties are from my mission 8 years ago.

[00:15:57]Yeah.

[00:15:57]>> This is like post vaporwave and that haircut man, this is amazing. This looks like one of my TAs when I was in college.

[00:16:05]This this is royal. I'm loving this is like a memory. This is a trip down memory lane and for us it's funny, but man, they are taking it very seriously.

[00:16:17]No traces of it. Would it be possible let's say in the Americas um for an empire to exist there and leave no archaeology? No, it's impossible.

[00:16:28]Yes, you're right. It is impossible for an empire to exist and leave no archaeology.

[00:16:36]But we only have 1% of the Americas archaeology performed already. I I have the quote. I have the quote.

[00:16:44]Quotes, this is William Saturno.

[00:16:47]Saturno. Saturn with an O. Saturno.

[00:16:52]Less than 1%. This is the quote. Of Mesoamerica has been professionally surveyed. Of all the Maya sites that we know to exist, we have excavated less than 1% of them. In addition to that, the sites themselves that we've done excavation on, so now we're in the 1%.

[00:17:08]We've excavated less than 10% of the site itself. So less than 10% of 1% of what they knew in 2015. What has happened and has increasingly um born fruit in Mesoamerica since 2015.

[00:17:25]>> Uh-huh.

[00:17:27]LiDAR. Okay. What's anti-Mormon rule number five? Oh, man.

[00:17:32]>> That their most cynical claims do not withstand a 5-second Google search. I literally just typed >> Yeah, I literally just typed into Google, okay? I literally just typed into Google right here, right now. You can see it on your screen.

[00:17:46]Mayan LiDAR discovers new pyramid.

[00:17:49]Because we're always hearing about this every 2 weeks they're discovering some new pyramid down there, right?

[00:17:55]>> Well, here's the first click. Look. PhD student finds lost city in Mexico jungle by accident in October 2024. Second article on CNN, nearly 3,000-year-old Mayan complex discovered. This is a May 30th, 2025. This is the most recent.

[00:18:10]Look at this. An entire new complex is discovered because they're using LiDAR technology. They're going down and literally scanning complex they already know about and they say, "Oh my gosh, that hill we've been climbing over looks like that's another pyramid."

[00:18:27]>> But Carl, >> Let's go check that one out.

[00:18:28]>> maybe maybe these are just sensationalized headlines, you know? So, once we drill in, this is from National Geographic from 2018 and they've done even more since 2018.

[00:18:38]>> Okay. He says, "The LiDAR images make it clear that this entire region was a settlement system whose scale and population density has been grossly underestimated." This is Thomas Garrison, the Ithaca College archaeologist and National Geographic Explorer who specializes in using digital digital technology for archaeological research.

[00:18:58]Wow.

[00:18:59]>> 2018.

[00:19:00]And we've done eight more years worth of this kind of work since then. And the the thing that bothers me, all right, and we're just going to talk cultural heritage here, okay? I do not believe, and I'm going to categor categorically say this, I do not believe that uh the son is responsible for the sins of the father or in the collective punishment that was rampant in the Old Testament, okay?

[00:19:24]But, I will say it frustrates me when I see anti-Mormon anti-Mormon pastors or evangelicals or Protestants making like literal just abject open-faced hit pieces on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, okay?

[00:19:42]When they're using arguments against us uh that actually are the exact opposite of the ones they were using against us only 100 years earlier. The first anti-Mormon Protestant pastors that came at us and made hit pieces like E.D. Howe in Mormonism Unveiled, the very first anti-Mormon book that led to real anti-Mormon violence, actually criticized people who believed in the Book of Mormon, you know why?

[00:20:10]Because we believed that there was a great and advanced civilization in the New World first. During the era of Jacksonian Democrats kicking out American Indians under reservations and the Trail of Tears, they had to justify this brutality by literally saying that they were less than human. They were trying to justify through evolution this concept that slaves and and and black Americans were less than human, okay?

[00:20:37]And then when Joseph Smith comes along and says, "Hey, hold on a second. Maybe we got to treat these people better. In fact, maybe we need to engage in positive discourse with these folks because I think they could be the remnant of actually a great and a beautiful civilization that existed here, and I've seen and had revelations that there were great civilizations here before." He was utterly lampooned and called an archaeological fraud for saying there were great civilizations. But, now that we found the great civilizations, they're saying, "Oh, no, no, not good enough. It's it it's not your version or the one that we like or the fake version we put up there." So so this is just The crazy thing is these people are using like the 1830s version of the argument against the Book of Mormon cuz they're making it I mean, you can replay it again or or people can just scroll back and watch again, but they're basically saying like but it's like there's no evidence of these civilizations anywhere. Like, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying there's no evidence of civilization from 600 BC to 400 AD in the No, no, no, that's not what we're saying. Just there's no evidence of the Book of Mormon ones.

[00:21:43]It's like, well, how do you know if there's Book of Mormon ones or not?

[00:21:47]>> Atheists say, "Show me the Tower of Babel. Show me the Garden of Eden. Show me the Altar of Abraham. Show me the bones of Jesus Christ." So on and so forth, right?

[00:21:55]>> going to get to that, yeah. Okay, awesome. So just keep playing. Uh yes.

[00:21:59]Um oh, wait, but I want to I want to bring out once again that the the kind of what they're hiding here with these questions cuz they're saying, "Oh my gosh, like the Jews are still there. We have all this archaeology. We know the reign of all the Roman emperors all the way down from the beginning. We have all their cities. They're easy to find and all that stuff."

[00:22:19]But then we don't have that for the Book of Mormon. It's like, is there possibly a difference between the level of information that we have from that time period in the Middle East versus Mesoamerica or or the rest of the Americas?

[00:22:33]Yeah, there is. So it's like, "Oh my gosh, when you compare apples to oranges, they're different."

[00:22:39]Well, also, you want to Yes, your point is? You want to talk Jewish population?

[00:22:44]We still have less Jews in the world now than we did in 1939.

[00:22:49]And if you want to track the population of Jews in the traditionally dominated Protestant and Catholic countries and those populations and start taking averages, um I don't think you have a lot of wiggle room to make criticisms.

[00:23:07]You know what I'm saying? It's It's It's not a hill you're going to want to die on. All right? So, here we continue.

[00:23:15]>> a Cumorah's hill joke. Uh I see what you did there. Oh, now I see what you did seeing what I did there.

[00:23:21]>> Cumorah in New York is not a hill I would want the Nephite civilization to die on. Oh, that's funny.

[00:23:26]>> really have stuff from there. If you know >> bring that up in this video, but that's for another time. So, we're not covering it here.

[00:23:32]>> Yeah. If you know, you know. So, here we go. Let's hit it. to exist there and leave no archaeology? No, it's impossible. No, it's impossible.

[00:23:41]Get a wind sock, bro. Get a wind sock.

[00:23:43]>> that archaeology never lie.

[00:23:45]Because of the development of the uh epigraphy, uh we now are able to read, you know, the ancient names of most of the of the sites. Yeah. Yeah, like spear thrower owl. Did you ever see Jerry Grover Yep. Yep. actually figuring out who he thinks Who did he say spear thrower owl owl was? It was the last Lamanite king? The last What was it again? I think these were like the Jaredites, but gosh, it might have been the Gadiantons. I can't remember which one it was. But, I know he has like a plausible No, it was the last battle of Cumorah I saw.

[00:24:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, interesting. And there's other stuff with that. There's actually a recorded city that got wiped out from the north.

[00:24:27]>> Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to put a link in the description. But, um okay.

[00:24:31]>> on. Go back a little bit to when this guy starts talking and then we play it for about 30 seconds or so and this is where it gets a little wild.

[00:24:38]They just They're They're kind of making up stuff at this point. Okay, so let me let me uh let me just start right here.

[00:24:44]development of the uh epigraphy, uh we now are able to read, you know, the ancient names of most of the of the sites. You ever heard of names in um like Zarahemla?

[00:24:59]No.

[00:25:00]Or Nephi?

[00:25:07]A good friend once asked me, "What sort of evidence would it take to convince you that the Book of Mormon was an ancient document?"

[00:25:15]And my response to him was it'd be nice if we could even find cities that are similar to the ones described in the Book of Mormon. All right. All right.

[00:25:23]Uh go to the timestamp link that I sent you in the Discord, Carden. Timestamp link?

[00:25:30]>> Yes.

[00:25:30]>> Okay. And this is the FAIR response. Um FAIR meaning the organization, FAIR FairMormon, FAIRLDS.

[00:25:39]And let's see what some of the uh Mesoamerican experts, some of them Brant Gardner, is a Mesoamerican expert, what they have to say about this. Remember, the claim is Okay.

[00:25:51]>> Oh, there are no cities that are named Zarahemla. Oh my gosh. Okay, here we go.

[00:25:55]Here we go. Let's check it out.

[00:25:57]The fact is, we all believe John Sorenson believes, John Clark believes, I believe that um that we probably have found Book of Mormon cities. We just don't know because there aren't inscriptions informing us of what their names were. Oh.

[00:26:11]>> know the names of these cities.

[00:26:13]I'm not aware of any of them in Book of Mormon times where scholars know the native name for that site.

[00:26:23]When the Maya began carving the glyphs into stone so that we they were preserved, uh one of the things that they would carve into stone is called an emblem glyph. And the emblem glyph is a set of pieces of information all put together uh that long ago scholars recognized were was specifically connected to a certain site.

[00:26:47]Uh it hasn't been until I think the last 10 years or so that they've been able to apply some phonetics to some of those emblem glyphs and retrieve some of the earlier names. The Which by the way is totally true.

[00:27:01]The linguistic shift of the name of a city over time >> Mhm. is insane.

[00:27:08]Like the amount of civilizational markers in the modern day that carry the name they had anciently is less than 1/10 of 1%. Okay? Like watch archaeologists argue over the nature of the name of London, right?

[00:27:28]Most people think actually that it's it it it it comes from some like derivation of I think it was like Babylon or something like that. But I've seen 17 different I've seen 17 different solid explanations that all appeal to linguistic analysis.

[00:27:40]And it's like, dude, like you Nope. You know what I'm saying? And also from a Christian framework, it's like, you can't be you if you live in a glass house, you can't be throwing stones, man. Like there can't be seven skulls of John the Baptist floating around. You know what I'm saying? But of course, actually, this isn't really a problem. Catholics play a lot nicer about this. This really is a North American uh Protestant Evangelical anti-Mormon uh kind of position to take. And I know that's very, very niche and I'm getting very, very specific, but I try and do be specific so I don't throw people under the bus unnecessarily. But >> Um Yeah. Yeah, I think you're unfamiliar with the ancients if you're thinking that why isn't Chicago Even Manhattan.

[00:28:28]The term Manhattan is is a derivative of the latest tribe that lived there. Has nothing to do with how it was spoken before that. Yeah.

[00:28:36]>> and they Yeah, they they can change and evolve, especially if if the language changes. And actually, the interesting thing is that I did a little bit of research in addition to what they said here. and we do have good phonetics, meaning uh I attach pronunciations that they would have had to those words, but those start at about the same time that the Book of Mormon ends.

[00:28:58]It's like right in like that 300-400 time period.

[00:29:01]>> Yeah, it's true.

[00:29:02]>> Which is like Joseph Smith got pretty lucky again to to put all his names before what we're going to end up having pronunciation for. But yeah, even Jesus is like Yeshua.

[00:29:13]It's like, well, that's you wouldn't write you would write that differently.

[00:29:17]Yeah. In English based on the pronunciation. So, even having the pronunciation doesn't really tell us that much about if the Book of Mormon name is right or not. So, >> Yeah, the way we pronounce things is maybe not the pronunciation that you you have there.

[00:29:31]>> and this is the point where they're kind of starting to just misrepresent the facts. Like, oh, we we should have city names is basically what they're saying and we don't. And then you go to the Latter-day Saint scholars and they're like, yeah, we we don't have any city names.

[00:29:45]So, Uh which we do. We do with some of those later glyphs. But yeah, like the the sites that we're talking about.

[00:29:52]Okay.

[00:29:53]>> I don't know what they call them. All right.

[00:29:55]>> Let's keep going.

[00:29:55]>> Let's go. Let's dive right in.

[00:29:57]>> It gets worse.

[00:29:57]>> Are we uh watching the FairMormon video or are >> with that one. Okay. We're going back to it.

[00:30:03]>> It's a good video. All right. I like that you made all these little clips. We got clip master Luke.

[00:30:08]>> I know. I'm back, baby.

[00:30:09]>> back in town. So, here we go with the second half of the video.

[00:30:13]>> There is no evidence uh as far as uh where Zarahemla is, which is one of the big cities that's men- mentioned in Oh, why do you say wrong?

[00:30:24]They have candidates for Zarahemla in the models. Oh, candidates. Yes, absolutely. And and coincidentally >> evidence. If you have a candidate and you can go and read yourself, but it's because you've put it together and put together with the the geography and the time that the city grows and how big it was and when it if it was involved in battles, and they found uh alignments.

[00:30:46]Same with the Tower of Babel. It's like we have candidates for where this could have been and archaeological sites we think could have been the Tower of Babel. Now, yes, you're right. We don't have an inscription on the wall that says Mhm. um the brother of Jared was here. We don't have an inscription on the wall that says uh who is the great hunter Nimrod was here, right? We We We don't have that, okay?

[00:31:09]But we've got a pretty good of idea where this went down, and we can hone in pretty accurately on a timeline and a place with multiple attestations that gives us an idea of, okay, most likely happened here. This narrative is real. Well, and people basically just like change the word the meaning of the word evidence to suit whether they agree with it or not.

[00:31:34]So, if there's something that they want to believe that's not definitively proved, they'll they'll point to all this evidence that points in this direction, even if we haven't proved it.

[00:31:44]And then if there's something that they disagree with, they'll say it, there's no evidence. And then if you try to give them any evidence, they'll say, "Oh, but that doesn't like prove it or anything."

[00:31:52]It's like, I know, but that's why the word evidence and proof are two different words. That's why in a court case both sides present evidence. Does that mean because both sides are true?

[00:32:02]No, it's because there are indications that can point both ways, and you have to weigh them and figure out which one is stronger.

[00:32:10]Okay.

[00:32:10]>> So, when people insist on saying there's no evidence, you just know that they insist on not representing it correctly. Okay. Cool.

[00:32:22]Uh I think that's fair. Here we are standing in Palenque today. The buildings that we see in front of us were in fact constructed several centuries after the events described in the Book of Mormon.

[00:32:33]>> what does that have to do with anything?

[00:32:35]As though Look, I found a city. It was built after the Book of Mormon.

[00:32:43]Hey guys, we're going to pause the video here just for a second to highlight one of our sponsors. We are super grateful for the sponsorship of Tiny 3D Temples.

[00:32:51]They are a company that produces all kinds of LDS decor. You can see it around our studio and not only do they help us financially with the program, but they also provide us with all of these cool giveaways for listeners of our program. We are super grateful for their sponsorship. And if you would like to know more, please make sure you guys check them out at tiny3dtemples.com.

[00:33:17]Look, I'm looking up Palenque construction timeline. All right, I'm just looking this up right now. This was recommended to me on X, okay? Like people are still sending this thing around. Yeah, seriously. So, um all right, so I just literally looked up uh Palenque Mexico's construction timeline here on Google.

[00:33:39]And look at this. Palenque was constructed primarily between 226 BCE and 799 CE. All right, with its peak or golden age occurring during the 7th century reign of Pakal the Great in 615 to 683 CE. So, it's a predominantly uh its golden age was after Christ. And it's really only in the 3rd century before Christ, right?

[00:34:04]So, he says it with this like mic drop iron. We got to go back and play it again. We got to go play back get back and play it again. And then literally just like analyze the insinuation here, okay? Here we are standing in Palenque today. The buildings that we see in front of us were in fact constructed several centuries after the events described in the Book of Mormon. Yeah, as Okay.

[00:34:36]Well, here here we go. Here we go. You ready for this?

[00:34:39]>> There's ruins made after the as though the Book of Mormon claims to be the origin of all civilization.

[00:34:45]>> that's that's like what they they don't really state it in the video, so they never have to back it up, but they just kind of assume like a hemispheric model of the Book of Mormon.

[00:34:56]>> too, bro. Like, Yeah, they just kind of they just kind of like assume that the Book of Mormon is the history of like the entire North and South America when it suits them and when it doesn't suit them. So, yeah, that's Well, how about how about this? Ready?

[00:35:11]From 1 CE to 350 CE, Teotihuacan exhibited explosive growth and emerged as the largest metropoli metropolis in Mesoamerica.

[00:35:21]That's Book of Mormon times. Done done done done done. There we go. I proved it.

[00:35:26]Wow, dude.

[00:35:28]>> Do Do Jericho next.

[00:35:29]>> guess I need to fly out there and stand in front of it.

[00:35:31]>> you know how long and how hard atheist anthropologists tried to absolutely dunk on Christians as believing fairy tales?

[00:35:43]All the way up until the 19th century, people didn't think King David existed or that Israel was as ancient a civilization. Yeah, they said that the the lions in Daniel in the lions' den was just an anachronism.

[00:35:57]Oh, wait. Crap. We're finding We're finding stele that actually mention Israel and Egyptian conquest. Uh and oh, a city actually with a guy named David.

[00:36:08]Oh, jeez. This isn't so good for us after all, but I uh Never mind. You're still stupid if you believe, you know?

[00:36:13]And so, it's like these are the people that persecuted you. Why are you now using their talking talking points to come after us? Okay.

[00:36:22]>> finish these clips, we're going to go through a couple things on the Bible that uh they didn't bring up for some reason in this video. Not to bash on the Bible, but to show that look, this picture that they're trying to paint of the Bible just being like, "Oh my gosh, we found everything. We found it a long time ago. It's all there. Nothing's there for the Book of Mormon."

[00:36:42]Nah, not quite. Okay.

[00:36:43]>> It's good. Like it's good. It's it's reliable, but not quite. Okay, so here we go. 3 2 1 go.

[00:36:49]>> described in the Book of Mormon.

[00:36:51]And the Book of Mormon DESCRIBES THE USE OF STRONG chariots during massive battles involving tens of thousands of warriors. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

[00:36:59]Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

[00:36:59]Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Hold on.

[00:37:00]Hold on. They didn't just go with horses, okay? They didn't just go with horses.

[00:37:06]They went with horses pulling chariots in battles of ten tens of thousands of people.

[00:37:13]Verse, please. Dude.

[00:37:15]>> I I was like they were like gaslighting me a little bit. I had to I went back and checked. I was like, "Control F horses. Horses.

[00:37:23]ChatGPT, horses. Anybody Anybody horses horses horses?" They are not mentioned in the battles. Oh.

[00:37:30]>> Like the closest that they get to being mentioned in a battle is when um oh, what's the city's name? They're running away from the Gadianton robbers, and so they like take all their stuff and they take they take their horses and their chariots into their stronghold along with the rest of their livestock to withstand. And so >> I think I included if you hit play.

[00:37:50]Okay.

[00:37:51]>> Oh gosh, I hope I put it in the right order.

[00:37:52]>> back. We got to listen to that again.

[00:37:53]>> order, yeah.

[00:37:54]>> We got to listen to that again.

[00:37:55]>> down on it. Like they just keep doubling down on it.

[00:37:58]>> This anti-horses anti-Mormon rant thing keeps getting more and more elaborate. At least people these days don't say like they were doing the the charge of the ride of the Rohirrim from Lord of the Rings at the siege of Minas Tirith or something like that.

[00:38:14]>> was like, "Why are horses mentioned in the Book of Mormon?" And then we started discovering like, "Oh, not all the horses actually came over from from uh the Spaniards. It was impossible cuz all the horses were female. And there's this archaeology done in Texas.

[00:38:27]There's this archaeological I mean, we did a whole entire episode with Jonah Barnes on it. It was really funny. It couldn't all They couldn't have all just have escaped from the Pueblo Revolt, right? And so, like So, now they kind of got to refine their argument. Finally, they're like, "The Book of Mormon says that there was musketeers on Clydesdales with 12-foot rapiers."

[00:38:48]Jacob, the brother of Nephi, spoke French because he said, "I do."

[00:38:53]at the end of his book.

[00:38:55]It's like, at least you could point to a verse in the text that would say that instead of this one. Yeah, but just hit it.

[00:39:00]>> Dude, this is crazy.

[00:39:02]>> I put these in the right order. Could you press play, right?

[00:39:04]>> Okay. They used war strong chariots during massive battles involving tens of thousands of warriors.

[00:39:10]The Book of Mormon also records other aspects of the culture, including its agriculture. Sweet.

[00:39:16]>> In Mosiah chapter 9, it says, "They began to till the ground with seeds of wheat and barley." Ah, this is funny.

[00:39:24]>> see in the Book of Mormon are all the wrong plants, things like wheat and barley.

[00:39:29]>> Yeah, and till you don't.

[00:39:32]Domestication. Hold on.

[00:39:35]Domesticated pre-Columbian barley in the Old World in Arizona dating to the Hohokam culture, which thrived from 300 BC to 1000 AD.

[00:39:47]And that and you know, try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Now, was this found after this 2005 thing? No, it was found in like the 1980s.

[00:39:55]Really?

[00:39:56]>> sure they've found even more since then.

[00:39:59]So, that's intriguing. We have domesticated barley in the Americas despite 20 years later after that research was done, this video claiming otherwise. Oh, interesting. You go, Clipmaster Luke. Let's keep burning.

[00:40:14]This is funny. specific types of metal in the Americas that poses a serious problem for the Book of Mormon account, which claims that both the Jaredites and Nephites use metal armor and weapons in their warfare, metal coins for their currency, and are even described as using metal plates to write on. Hmm, metal coins for their Okay, so maybe the script, the person writing the script just didn't research this very well. So, let's hear the expert say his thing.

[00:40:39]Yeah, this is kind of smooth-brained 2007 anti-Mormon Reddit takes, but yeah, let's let's let's give it let's give it a minute. come up with really outrageous ideas that any bonafide anthropologist or archaeologist would simply shake their head at.

[00:40:59]For example, horses.

[00:41:02]They say, "Well, maybe Okay.

[00:41:03]>> I I did put it out of order. I was worried that I would. But yeah, you can just press play on it. Yeah, let's play it.

[00:41:08]>> they were tapir or deer. Well, how do you ride something that's a little bit bigger than a dog into battle? It's not a horse.

[00:41:17]What? He's supposed to be the expert on this. He's supposed to be the LDS anthropologist.

[00:41:22]They never mention them riding into battle, my guy. Yeah. There's only like six references in the whole Book of Mormon. Like, how is this hard to research? There's there's plenty of ancients that use what is now modernly translated to cattle for all kinds of other domesticated animals, whether it was for food or for labor. Not every form of domesticated animal is ridden into battle.

[00:41:45]>> And And there's lots of hints in the text itself that >> Uh-huh. that they don't have a horse culture. Horses are mentioned, but they don't have a horse culture, which Joseph Smith had. He had the horse culture. And Nathaniel Givens, actually on X just a couple weeks ago, pointed out an interesting one that I hadn't seen before. You know the story where I think it's Nephi. He's praying because of the wickedness of the people along the path outside of the city on like his garden tower. And the people gather around and he says, "Oh, you're so wicked. It's at your doorstep. The the chief judge of the king lies dead." Okay. And then what happens? It says that five fast men go and run over there.

[00:42:25]Okay. If you're on the city path outside of a major city and you're along the highway going into that city and you live in a horse culture and there's a large crowd of people there, what are you going to have at least a couple of in that crowd?

[00:42:38]Horses. Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's that's the mode of transportation people have.

[00:42:42]Okay. But what happens in this story?

[00:42:45]It's far enough that not everybody just runs over there real quick.

[00:42:49]So, there's the five fast men who run over there to it.

[00:42:54]If horses were here being used in everyday use like they were at Joseph Smith's time, this is where you would expect to see horses, but you don't. You just see foot travel.

[00:43:04]Oh, interesting. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

[00:43:06]>> Yeah. And so, it's And and that I mean, like in battle, there's no horse scouts, there's no horse charges.

[00:43:12]>> have included those details that then would have been proven as anachronistic.

[00:43:16]>> aren't in the battle.

[00:43:18]>> of those details actually fit with horse culture in So, all we have is the words.

[00:43:24]And then we don't see them being used in the way that Joseph Smith you would expect him to use them, so. And then of course, going back to the video, I mean, we gave it way too much benefit of the doubt. We went into way too much research for them cuz they're over here thinking that Joseph Smith is talking about like horse charges or something.

[00:43:41]>> a blind spot. They think they can just dunk on us and it's not a dunk.

[00:43:47]>> Yeah, if I slap PhD on it and say that he's LDS and then put a compelling soundtrack behind it and put it on a DVD, then people will believe it.

[00:43:56]Yeah, jeez.

[00:43:58]>> unfortunately, that's usually how it works. Okay. All right. So, >> the coins. The coins.

[00:44:04]Coins are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

[00:44:07]Coins are mentioned in the heading of one of the chapters in the Book of Mormon. And it's already been it's already been modified, correct?

[00:44:14]>> I'm pretty sure it has in the newest one. Not in 2005, but yeah, in the newest one.

[00:44:18]>> ancestors of the American >> in this video, too.

[00:44:21]>> Indians and the whole coinage thing is it's just smooth brain MySpace and like early 2000s Reddit Well, and you >> anti-Mormonism. You'll even notice in the video it said like, "Well, it talks about metals in the Nephite and Jaredite cultures, including things like coins."

[00:44:39]It's like, uh no, nothing like that is mentioned at all in Jaredites. And then one thing that is not called coins, but has been taken to be coins by some readers is mentioned in the Nephites. So, you're you're double wrong. We're going to have to put uh there's evidence of meteoric iron being used in the New World.

[00:45:02]>> Yeah, that's Jerry Grover, too, right?

[00:45:03]>> Jerry Yeah, Jerry Grover talks about that um in the Swords of Shule, how they could have made Swords of Shule in the cinder cones. I it it it's it's it's it's wild. You know what I'm saying? So, I mean, obviously, I don't even remember all the details of that. I just remember thinking, "Holy smoke.

[00:45:21]There actually is a way and tons of literature written on that way that this could happen.

[00:45:28]And they just it's it it it's like a confidence trick, just pure dismissal in order to make people fear looking stupid. When in reality, if you just look into it for 5 seconds, you say, "Oh, actually, this is doable." So, um all right, we keep going.

[00:45:46]>> We have around 5,500 manuscripts.

[00:45:51]That's containing parts or all of the Greek New Testament. Yeah, he's just smart. With that accent, whoever he is, he's just smart.

[00:45:58]>> guy might show him up, actually. Okay.

[00:46:00]So, we've got plenty of evidence for the Greek Gospels, for the Greek letters in the New Testament.

[00:46:06]>> Yeah, cuz he's a professor of Old Testament and he's got a PhD.

[00:46:10]>> Yeah, he's got a smart person name. Here we go. They go way, way back to very early on, to only a matter of a few decades after they were first written.

[00:46:20]By contrast, we have no ancient copy of the Book of Mormon.

[00:46:24]We have manuscript Well, yeah, cuz it was It's an It's translated in 1830.

[00:46:30]Well, no, no, no, but but like the story of the Book of Mormon is that there was this Yeah.

[00:46:35]>> Not the Book of Mormon, okay.

[00:46:36]>> story of the New Testament is the Gospels are written to be sent out to everybody.

[00:46:42]Or the Old Testament prophets are written for the consumption of the people. Or the letters of Paul are written for the exact same reason. And then people copy it to preserve that thing that they're supposed to have. The Book of Mormon narrative is such that there's a hidden collection of records kept by kind of the the priestly class of the king class in in the beginning with Nephi that are held throughout time to kind of be kept as the memory of the prophets for the people.

[00:47:08]Yeah.

[00:47:08]>> That But then the Book of Mormon itself doesn't even exist until Mormon, finished off by Moroni, makes the single and only copy of it before burying it in the ground. Yeah. So, it would actually be more concerning if we found copies of the Book of Mormon >> forgeries.

[00:47:26]if we found copies of the Book of Mormon that date to before Joseph Smith, cuz that would also tell us that the Book of Mormon is wrong because it's not a single copy buried in the ground like the narrative says.

[00:47:37]Okay.

[00:47:38]>> So, it's just So, it's just it's apples to oranges again. But they they just kind of hide it in a way that you like is right in front of your face but they don't mention it. Uh-huh. And they just act like they're com- they're making a one-to-one comparison. And so, the wool just kind of gets pulled over the eyes of people who aren't thinking critically about this while they're watching. That's funny. Also, is it I For a second there, I thought he had some of the works of Hugh Nibley behind him, top left of his head.

[00:48:06]>> the fancy books look like that.

[00:48:07]>> I realized, nah, that's just uh books written in the '70s and '80s with the colored bar on the side thing.

[00:48:12]>> Academic books written in the '70s, yeah.

[00:48:15]>> Here we go.

[00:48:15]>> evidence. It's almost 2,000 years old for the New Testament and over 2,000 years old for the Old Testament.

[00:48:22]For the Book of Mormon, I'm not aware of any manuscript evidence. Okay, if Richard Dawkins had an effeminate younger brother, it would sound >> Oh dear.

[00:48:32]Oh dear.

[00:48:33]Well, true or not true? You can't unhear it.

[00:48:36]>> No comment.

[00:48:37]>> When you hear it, you can't unhear it.

[00:48:39]Okay, listen to this guy and then listen to the next guys. after they were first written.

[00:48:44]By contrast, we have no ancient copy of the Book of Mormon. This guy, he's going to give me a bank loan from the Bank of England.

[00:48:51]>> I think he wins the smart accent.

[00:48:52]manuscript evidence. It's almost 2,000 years old for the New Testament and over 2,000 years old for the Old It's like Terrell Givens had a baby with Richard Dawkins.

[00:49:02]You know what I said? It's like I'm sorry, bro. Like you're not you're not I You know, I am unconvinced. I'm unconvinced and I actually kind of think your arrogance is a little bit of a put off here. But that that's fine. That's fine. We're just defending some sincerely held religious beliefs here, but let's go.

[00:49:24]For the Book of Mormon, I'm not aware of any manuscript evidence at all.

[00:49:29]But with the Book of Mormon, we have no documentary trail.

[00:49:33]We do not have texts that we can go to until 1830.

[00:49:40]Chapter 11 of the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon, the chapter heading says, "Nephite coinage set There we go. There we go.

[00:49:48]Then it goes through and describes Now, in all fairness, in all fairness, Okay, look, this was debunked like in the literally this has been debunked since what? The the 30s or the 40s?

[00:50:01]When they put that in the heading and then realized oh, there were some errors in the headings that we put on there.

[00:50:05]>> was the 80s when they like made the Bible dictionary and made all the cross-references that we have today.

[00:50:10]>> E. Talmage in the 20s or the 30s?

[00:50:15]I was I was under the impression that the first set of headings or was it Bruce R. McConkie? There has been multiple sets of them that have happened. I was under the impression that what we had until like 2013-ish was what McConkie and the other >> But either way, this was this was the last millennium we're talking about here. Like >> It's like we see in the heading to the chapter and either like what's worse?

[00:50:37]This supposedly expert on the topic doesn't know what actually was the translated part versus the summarized part by church correlation or are they just intentionally being deceptive? I don't know which one's worse. What's it called when you say can't instead of cannot?

[00:50:57]An abbreviation or a contraction?

[00:50:59]>> a contraction. That's what I was looking for.

[00:51:01]This is as smooth-brained a take as literally saying the Bible's not true because I read in one of the headings of the Bible a contraction.

[00:51:14]And as we know Oh, yeah. ancient Greek had no spaces and no apostrophes and no contractions.

[00:51:23]So, the Book of John is fraudulent.

[00:51:27]And it's like you you know that's the modern summary is in the heading of the chapter. Like you know that, right? You're not You're not saying the Bible's fake cuz somebody said uh Pharaoh can't stop persecuting the Jews in Exodus that the can't a contraction but like you know they're not the same thing, right? That's literally how bad this take is.

[00:51:59]Oh man, that is so bad.

[00:52:01]>> Yep. And I think we're right about at the end here, aren't we?

[00:52:04]>> No, almost.

[00:52:05]>> How the the money system of the Book of Mormon worked. Now, if we take these images of coins we find in the Book of Mormon and contrast them to this in the Book of Mormon to places in ancient America, we find that they're not at all alike.

[00:52:22]There were no metallic coins being used.

[00:52:25]>> Where does it say metallic coins?

[00:52:27]It doesn't say it anywhere.

[00:52:28]>> Oh, you're It doesn't say coins in the text.

[00:52:30]>> Smith was very smart if he's making it up.

[00:52:33]He doesn't mention metal coins.

[00:52:36]There's a little bit of armor going on but also not cuz like why would the Nephites not wear armor?

[00:52:41]>> I think it's coming from the weights and the measures and the Yeah.

[00:52:44]>> and he's comparing it to like things of barley and things of of wheat.

[00:52:47]>> Yeah. They're like, yeah.

[00:52:49]Yeah. Uh it words of the mode of exchange con- conversions.

[00:52:55]>> Instead of saying Nephite coinage, it should have been Nephite commerce is discussed.

[00:52:59]It or like the monetary system. Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:02]>> Which we do know like he's saying, "Oh, their monetary system's nothing like the Maya." Wait, wait, you mean to tell me that Joseph Smith predicted that a civilization that existed in 0 BC would have a monetary system? That's another win for Joseph. No.

[00:53:17]>> Like that's another win for him.

[00:53:19]>> Yeah, coins weren't actually invented Coins weren't invented I I actually I find it to be a proof of the Book of Mormon. Coins weren't invented until about I think 550 BC or so, maybe 500 BC was when a city called Lydia invented coins with a square stamped on the back and it had a lion on front and it was to standardize standardize commerce and the coin was I can't it's a mixture of silver and gold. I can't remember what it's called but it's a naturally occurring alloy that's a mixture of silver and gold. Let me put this up on here it is.

[00:54:02]>> What we do know is these ancient peoples going back to the Olmec actually if I'm not mistaken they had a word for metal.

[00:54:12]Now if metal was just something that was like part of the dirt in the ground and like an ore seam or something you wouldn't really have a word in your language that persisted throughout time.

[00:54:23]>> And so we we know that they had to have had some limited interaction with metal and Joseph Smith if he's making this up is very very smart because he doesn't talk about metal coins. Those are harder to make. They have to be mass produced used widely. They would show up in archaeology and they're just a more advanced use of metal than some other early primitive ones. What he does use is metal plates primarily held by just the Nephite kings that are very difficult to make and so they have to shove as much on the to them as possible. And so what Joseph Smith is creating in the Book of Mormon if he's making it up is a very primitive and limited metal culture which is actually what the archaeology suggests.

[00:55:06]>> Well also might be why well also when you say sword it's just cuz you're doing a dynamic translation of the term sword. It doesn't mean that that you weren't >> Yeah even even the Bible has an anachronistic use of the word steel.

[00:55:17]Like what we consider steel today is not when the Bible says steel is not what it's talking about.

[00:55:23]>> So well the the only reason I I mention this is just because I actually think the lack of widespread use of terminology surrounding coinage in the Book of Mormon is actually an evidence of its authenticity not an anachronistic evidence against its authenticity. And one of the reasons why is when you actually study the This is just the first article. I haven't read this whole article here. Uh but it's Sardis expedition.org.

[00:55:52]Okay, there's also 15 articles if you just look up uh Lydian coinage, which was the first coinage basically the city of Lydia was was credited with having made the first coins. And I I I looked up the metal.

[00:56:09]It's called electrum. And the only reason I mention this is because this happened When did Nephi leave for the New World?

[00:56:17]Uh 81, like 581-ish?

[00:56:20]Or 592-ish?

[00:56:22]>> Yeah, generally you say about 600 years before Christ, basically. More or >> Oh, I was getting too specific.

[00:56:26]>> yeah, but about 600 years before Christ, right?

[00:56:28]>> Yeah. Well, it's believed that at about that same time, but further north, okay, in modern Turkey, is And let me actually put this here so that you can see the entirety of the article here.

[00:56:41]Um I haven't seen people say that it happened in as far as 650 BC. Most of the articles I've read put it at 550 BC.

[00:56:51]But coinage as a metric of currency exchange in merchant and capitalistic society, shall we call it, in air quotes, all right, was not the method of trade.

[00:57:08]It was generally what I guess modern times you'd call barter or else item for item, right?

[00:57:14]>> Mhm.

[00:57:15]And so standardized coinage wasn't really really widespread until I think like Alexander the Great or sometime around there.

[00:57:22]Um and so if Nephi really were to leave Jerusalem in 581 550 BC the coins were invented. He would have left a world with no coin coinage to go start or incorporate into a new civilization that didn't use coinage.

[00:57:43]And the fact that they never adopted a nomenclature of coinage to me shows, okay, he probably authentically left before coinage was widespread in the Greco-Roman world. And sure enough, when you look up the literal history of coinage, the very first city-state to quote mint coins was Lydia in 650 to 550 BC using a natural curling alloy electrum, which is a mixture, I believe, of silver and gold.

[00:58:09]So, I I It's like this actually isn't a dunk, but a reverse dunk if you go deeper in the information.

[00:58:17]Um all right, do we keep playing or Yes, except I'm pretty sure we are just about at the end.

[00:58:23]Okay, cool, awesome. Well, I'm digging this so far.

[00:58:26]>> And then we'll discuss a few problems with the Bible before we wrap up.

[00:58:29]>> Okay, so um well, we wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily want to say problems as much as just analogs in the Bible >> Well, I'm saying if you overlook if you take the lens that they were pointing at the Book of Mormon and shifted it over to the Bible Okay. They're going to be Bible problems. Yes, I hear you. So, we finish in the last 10 seconds.

[00:58:47]>> Mormon just flat has it wrong.

[00:58:50]And all your excavating, you haven't found any coins that would predate This is funny.

[00:58:56]>> Nothing. This is funny.

[00:58:58]>> metallic coins were not in use in any part of ancient America.

[00:59:03]We didn't use coins. We didn't have them. We took coins when they first came, which were not until Europeans came around, and we usually kind of flattened them out and made them into jewelry. Yeah, but they did too.

[00:59:14]But it's the same question that arises.

[00:59:16]But by the way, look at this. I think I realized what they're doing cuz here again they're saying LDS/Native American anthropologist University of Washington.

[00:59:24]I I they're just >> guy They're literally calling anybody that makes fun of Mormons an LDS anthropologist. Those ones might be.

[00:59:35]Cuz like as you recall, in the last video where they were interviewing the Latter-Day Saint guy that Jonah was convinced was not Latter-Day Saint.

[00:59:42]Okay.

[00:59:43]>> up actually being Latter-Day Saint. Cuz his answers were so bad that it was like, bro.

[00:59:48]>> I think they just have the budget to find Latter-Day Saints that will say what they want them to say.

[00:59:53]Okay, well, I'm just >> knows, maybe it was a different time back in 2004. I was 8 years old. I wasn't plugged in. Okay, so I'm just looking up Angelo Baca.

[01:00:03]>> seeing how much they are just drilling down into this. Like they spend multiple minutes on these horses that are being ridden into battle that can't possibly be deers or tapirs cuz how could you ride a deer into battle?

[01:00:17]Something that never happens in the Book of Mormon. They do the same thing with the coins.

[01:00:21]And they're just blatantly lying about or conveniently choosing to go with one interpretation of the Book of Mormon to And these are like some of the main points of this video. Look, I just looked up Angelo Baca, the guy that literally just showed up on How do we know it's the same guy? Yeah, so look, here's Angelo Baca. Says right there that says LDS / Native American Anthropologist, University of Washington. Okay. So this guy here is saying this dude's an expert on Latter-Day Saints, and Latter-Day Saints are stupid because coinage, right? So I'm like, wow, that's a pretty serious indictment, right?

[01:01:04]So I look up Angelo Baca, right? And just this is the first thing that comes up, bro. It's his resume. He looks like a cool guy. I mean, I'm digging the hair. Native Americans, phenomenal hair.

[01:01:15]I used to do Bracato.

[01:01:17]Sorry, I used to do not Wella. What was I used to do all kinds of different hair dye and uh beauty product uh commercials back in the early days of digital um uh digital uh you know the shift between the analog to the digital era back when social media was new in like the early 2000s and stuff. And so in doing all these different commercials for different uh hair especially products, Native Americans, Koreans, great hair, just thick, black, dense. If I could do long hair in a ponytail like that with the freaking camera in a heartbeat. I would have long hair, bro. I'm so jealous. But anyway, so I looked this guy up, right?

[01:01:58]And areas of interest, yes, indeed, indigenous American health and wellness, visual representation.

[01:02:04]Looks like he's uh working somewhere in NYU Arts and Sciences. Okay, that's cool.

[01:02:11]And um yeah, he's got a PhD in sociocultural anthropology.

[01:02:17]And uh did his dissertation on hearing stories with bears' ears, media narratives, perspectives, yada yada this and that.

[01:02:25]And here's his areas of research. I I see no overwhelming indications on his resume at least that he is either LDS himself or a specialist in LDS anthropology.

[01:02:45]Um yet here he is represented in a video now with a half million views as Angelo Baca LDS/Native American anthropologist. So either they're saying he is Latter-day Saint when he's not Well, he could be.

[01:03:01]>> and a Native American anthropologist.

[01:03:04]Oh, sorry. Where we assume he's not, but like >> that's not This is consistent with the labeling that they had of other people that we knew weren't. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? So we've kind of ruled out that if they say LDS, it means he is a Latter-day Saint. And this again is just >> He could be. Like the other guy was.

[01:03:22]Point being, what's going on here? Is there talking to a Native American and saying, "Did you guys have coins?" As like proof that the Book of Mormon people couldn't have.

[01:03:32]But that's just one part of the Americas. It's like, "Oh, look.

[01:03:37]North Africa over here didn't have." And then list something that happened in Jerusalem in the Bible.

[01:03:44]Look, the archaeology's against it. Um not really. Dude, that's kind of cool.

[01:03:48]This guy's uh This guy says he's an expert in the Hopi. That is a cool culture.

[01:03:55]They're all Like, yeah, yeah. But dude, I dude, Southwestern United States >> or I dude >> sketchy. It's It One of my uh One of my best buddies at BYU was Navajo.

[01:04:06]Dude, Navajo, Hopi, Southwestern United States, American Indian culture, everything everything surrounding Four Corners, I just think it's like so cool.

[01:04:16]Um and I used to donate to this organization that was trying to go in and record all of the oldest chiefs and elders in these tribes to try and preserve some of their languages because unfortunately, there's a lot of indigenous languages >> in archaeology? Uh yeah. Yeah, I'd actually be curious I'd be curious to see if this Angelo Baca guy has been involved in the uh >> the language is there. It's just supposed to stay there. Like if we haven't found it, that means that it doesn't exist.

[01:04:42]>> Yeah, exactly. So, anyway, So, here we have Yeah, so that's the that's the video. It's the video. If they were a little more looking to represent both sides fairly, they might have brought up some of this stuff about the Bible, okay? Uh here is Michael Grant.

[01:05:00]And we're talking about when Herod goes and kills like all the two-year-olds in the story of Jesus Okay.

[01:05:06]>> narrative. He says, quote, "The massacre of the innocents is all that most people have heard about Herod the Great. As will become clear, however, when we come to this last phase of Herod's long life, the tale is not history, but myth or folklore, a a portentous symbol of the grip which one man's formidable personality exerted upon the imagination of his contemporaries.

[01:05:29]So, fairly widely, and there is some responses to this just as we discussed responses to the Book of Mormon stuff, but fairly widely regarded the massacre of innocents in the story birth story of Jesus not a thing that actually happened. Yeah.

[01:05:44]>> Uh we have the Red Sea.

[01:05:46]They talked about not knowing where the Book of Mormon took place. Actually, the Red Sea is not confirmed to be the Exodus path. And they might be the sea that they took.

[01:05:56]Yeah, the Reed Sea. There's a sea with reeds, and it got like mis- understood to be the Red Sea that we think about today. Interesting.

[01:06:05]>> this channel themselves, Expedition Bible, it holds disputed claims about which pharaoh was the pharaoh of the Exodus.

[01:06:13]So, they've produced content saying that it was Amenhotep the Second.

[01:06:20]While there are alternative and stronger, yeah, alternative and more strongly held hypotheses that it was either Thutmose the Third or Ramses the Second.

[01:06:33]And so, I've heard Ramses the Second most often. Yes.

[01:06:36]>> And that's the one from like the DreamWorks movie. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:40]>> Yeah. But so, here they are saying, "Oh my gosh, like the Book of Mormon can't agree on these kind of things." Meanwhile, they're out there making content disagreeing on where the Exodus is Exodus took place from the experts. Same thing with the the tomb of Jesus, you know, the resurrection of Jesus is the key linchpin historical event that grounds all of Christianity.

[01:07:03]There is strong consensus that the Catholics hold to a specific site. I forget its name at the moment. But then there are actually a group usually of Protestants that hold to a garden tomb location. And then so once again, we have some disagreement on the most key like it doesn't really matter that whoever wrote the Bible got Jerusalem right. I mean they were they were like living in or near Jerusalem or that they got it right that Egypt was a civilization that existed like not impressive whatsoever. Nobody's being convinced of the Bible for this.

[01:07:39]But the resurrection of Jesus now, that if you have that tomb is pretty important. Yeah. But there's disagreement on it. So I'm reading right now the NIV Study Bible as we do come follow me.

[01:07:52]>> Mhm. Okay. Uh because A, I would just like to read the Bible uh in cover to cover in another translation other than uh the King James version.

[01:08:03]Um I've I've read a lot of the Reina Valera cuz obviously I served my mission in Argentina, which is kind of like the Spanish King James version. It's the most widespread and uh popular and poetic uh version of the Bible in Spanish. Um and I've obviously uh read most of the Bible most of my life in most situations uh in the King James version. Okay. So So now I'm reading the NIV Study Bible, but I am loving it. Okay. I am loving it because um these study Bibles I'm going I think it's actually this one right here and I'll put it up on the screen so that uh anybody else that's interested actually can see it. I think I'm reading this one.

[01:08:47]The NIV Quest Only Q&A Study Bible where in the margins you can actually see that there's uh like questions like okay, so why did God harden the heart of Pharaoh is what I I yesterday just as we're causing the exodus. They're like, "Oh, well, how could livestock be killed again if all of livestock were killed a chapter ago by the hail or whatever?"

[01:09:10]And and I'm telling you on the archaeological questions that this study Bible sets out to try and answer, okay? And the archaeological questions that this study Bible sets out to try and answer, they're batting like 50 50% where they're just like, "You know what? Uh we don't know. There's no real clear indication. There's like And so you just kind of think like, "Guys, why do you get that out?" Why do you get it, but we don't?

[01:09:42]>> how you turn your own people into atheists is when you set up these standards for the Book of Mormon to meet and you present it in a certain way that makes it look like it doesn't meet it or you just lie about what's in the text like they did here.

[01:09:55]And then it turns out that the truth is more complicated than that. Like people are going to lose confidence. And this is what we were just with Jared from Heliocentric not that long ago. And he actually cites this uh slaughter of the innocents and the fact that a lot of people think it's not supported in the historical record as one of the not the thing, but just kind of one of those things along the path that makes him not want to have faith Yeah.

[01:10:23]>> in the events of the Bible. And actually to kind of back what what you're saying with the NIV Study Bible, here's William G. Dever, Dever, a professor of Near Eastern Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona, who believes in the Bible. He's a Christian. However, he says, "The archaeological revolution in biblical studies confidently predicted by George E. Wright and his teacher, the legendary William Foxwell Albright, has come about by the 1980s.

[01:10:50]But not entirely in the positive way that they had expected. Many of the central events as narrated narrated in the Hebrew Bible turn out to be his not to be historically verifiable, i.e. not true at all.

[01:11:05]Well, I think that's a little bit cynical to say not historically via verifiable i.e. not true at >> eastern archaeology and anthropology professor who believes the Bible and this is his analysis. So have have disagreement if you want. It's just to show it's just it just goes to show that if you're trying to present oh the Bible like it's airtight the the archaeology is all there all the ducks are in a row.

[01:11:28]Meanwhile the Book of Mormon has nothing. You're wrong not only about the Book of Mormon, but you're also wrong about the Bible and that is to your detriment.

[01:11:36]>> yeah, but I'm just saying also I I I bristle so much to that phrase because one of the greatest parties I ever went to in college was on Utah Lake. There's a guy that figured out how to blow up magnesium cores in a Volkswagen engines.

[01:11:48]Apparently Volkswagen engines their cores made out of magnesium. And there's a certain way if you load them up with dynamite or something you create a massive explosion or whatever.

[01:11:57]>> to explode with dynamite, yeah.

[01:11:59]>> Yeah, and so it was so cool. I don't have a photo of that. So if I tell my children one of the greatest parties ever had in humankind was in 2004 all in Utah Lake where we blew up a Volkswagen engines and it was the biggest blow up awesome party ever. Do I want some cynical atheistic professor saying well there was no photographic evidence that there was ever a core blown up anywhere in Utah Lake. So therefore your father's party never actually happened. He's an untrustworthy source and a liar. And you're just like what?

[01:12:31]Bro, come on.

[01:12:33]You have to watch out with terminologies like this, right?

[01:12:36]>> And and the thing also with Book of Mormon archaeology like they'll say things along the lines of well, it's not so much a matter of I need to get to a certain point of evidence. It'd just be nice to have any evidence at all.

[01:12:49]The we haven't found any of the cities, you know, any of the battles. The thing is if we do end up pinning down one of the cities or one of the battles or one of the rivers, tons of stuff follows from that. If you pin where Zarahemla is, then you've basically got the narrow neck, the river Sidon, the bountiful, the land of first inheritance, the land of desolation on lockdown. You know, you've you've basically nailed down all the rest of those just with that one site. And so that so it's not as far off from the Bible like it as it seems. You don't need to get each one one at a time independently. They will fall like dominoes.

[01:13:31]>> got to If we start to, you know, if these 1% of 10%, 10% of 1% sites start to come out with a good Book of Mormon geography, which it's already it's already looking there.

[01:13:44]There's candidates, so. So, riddle me this. How many hundreds of thousands of views does this video have? I believe it was 350, but I can That's a lot. That's that's that's that's bumping up to almost half a million views. Oh, I am I apologize. It was It was put out almost exactly 3 years ago and has 486,000 views.

[01:14:06]>> So, by by the time I'm done editing this one, it's going to have a half million views. And that's only on one platform.

[01:14:13]>> there eventually, yeah. Geez Louise. All right, well >> And it's just it's just a repost of a video that was made in 2005 and already did the rounds back then. Oh gosh, this is so bad. It's just like so bad, yeah.

[01:14:25]>> This is so so bad. So, um wow, I guess that's all it takes. Uh consider this debunked. I think that's a uh Ooh, that's a disappointment. But hey, let's invite this guy on our show. He's made enough anti-Mormon material.

[01:14:41]What's his name? Joel Kramer? Joel Kramer, Expedition Bible.

[01:14:45]>> have any And it's so sad cuz sometimes his stuff is really interesting on like the Bible in the old world. He like went He made this super awesome and intriguing video about like is this the river Pishon mentioned in the Bible? Cuz you know how there was in the Bible coming out of Eden there was you know the Tigris, the Euphrates, the the Pishon. Oh gosh, what was the fourth river? I can't remember the other river.

[01:15:11]But um there's multiple rivers that come out of the Garden of Eden and they carry their names. A lot of people think that the modern Tigris and Euphrates carry their actual ancient uh name. That's a little bit difficult to uh truly verify and whatnot. But um he made this fun video saying like oh is this dry riverbed basically the ancient river of uh the Paishon, the Pishon, depending on how you want to uh pronounce it. It was like super fun. It was like it was like brain candy. I liked it. So um you got something to say before we jam?

[01:15:40]I was just looking up their videos and yeah they have a lot of this kind of stuff.

[01:15:44]However, people have cautioned against the way that they use the evidence for for stuff. As we kind of saw with this video, they're willing to massage things a little bit to fit certain narratives. So And call everybody involved in the production LDS or LDS anthropologists. Yeah, the editor is just like maybe this is some It's like PhD but there's some sort of other thing if you're an anthropologist called an LDS degree. I don't know what this is. I'm just slapping on all of them.

[01:16:12]Bloody, that was funny. All right, so guys let us know what you guys think in the comments below. Do any of these criticisms carry water or we just up a creek without uh our paddles?

[01:16:22]Um let us know what you guys think. Uh I was going to say where can people find you? You want to find you, Luke? Luke F Han on Twitter. Luke F Han on Twitter.

[01:16:31]On X. Okay, awesome. For this and more guys, please make sure you check us out at wardradio.com.