'Don't Display Arrogance to members' questions', Drama as MPs SCREW Ndindi Nyoro over fuel crisis

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:01]When you are the chair of the budget committee, VAT on fuel was 16%.

[00:00:10]Now it is 8%.

[00:00:15]And you want to propose that it moved to 0%.

[00:00:20]these innovative ideas, why didn't you uh use them when you are the chairman and bring up them up when you are the chairman at that time when it was 16%.

[00:00:36]Secondly, chair in these areas which you have mentioned that they have witnessed abnormal increments.

[00:00:52]Were these increments in the various sectors were they there when you are the chairman or you've just noticed them when you are not the chairman? Thank you.

[00:01:02]>> Thank you. Next question. Honorable Chairman uh thank you uh I want to thank the honorable lead for finding time to come and appear before this committee.

[00:01:12]All of us here are members of parliament and we understand the constitutional role of the member of parliament with legislation oversight budget making and representation.

[00:01:26]These are very important generalized suggestions.

[00:01:30]Have you thought of contextualizing the Sent into a bill that will go through the legal, public, administrative, parliamentary stages because you can see some of the things that is suggesting is not something that can be done through a roadside uh declaration.

[00:01:54]Two and maybe this I expect either yes or no. You're also aware that the budget making process first and foremost is constitutional.

[00:02:07]Two, just like all over the world and Kenya being part of the civilized world, it's also political.

[00:02:15]Three, it's also driven by party manifestos.

[00:02:22]But that party manifesto again does not limit because you can also have an alternative. That's why in other civilist world we have uh the alternative uh position on anything that the party in power also says and fourth and more fundamentally is public driven.

[00:02:41]Some of us are privileged. I've known you as even when you work with honorable Kangata. I know you as member of father I've interacted with you as the chair of this committee in the Kenyan scenario chairman and this is the the most unfortunate part we speak from both sides depending on where we are at that particular time and that's why we are not doing well as a country what is missing is the consistency honesty peopledriven people tailor made policy pronouncement we change it's like weather today because I am here politically and this is convenient. I just want to circumvent all other process and say this is what I think because all of us here have taken an oath to stand and protect and even say project the image of this premier republic.

[00:03:39]That's why I've taken an oath of office as a member of parliament for elders.

[00:03:44]So I want to ask my good friend here these suggestions are very good but you also remember this is not the first time that when this crisis this is my last part this crisis was there immediately after the election and you are privileged to have been the chairman of this very important committee and this is not going to be again the last challenge I'm sure uh uh the world is very dynamic the whole international environment his climate is conflated and therefore we are likely we may be through with the Iranian American Middle East challenges but we may that might be again rude root to something else.

[00:04:26]What are the differences at that time in terms of you as the chair then and right now being the chair Americas and the circumstances immediately after the countdown of 2022 and the circumstances right now during this war visav these proposals. Thank you chairman.

[00:04:52]>> Members I I something chairman I I just want to allow members to ask then you just respond.

[00:05:00]>> Would you not want to to take all the questions I respond at the end chairman it's my I'm just requesting for your intelligence.

[00:05:08]>> Yes.

[00:05:09]>> Uh because I'm a human being and I want to give the best answers for questions.

[00:05:14]>> Yes.

[00:05:14]>> Let's not take more than four in terms of routes. That's my observation.

[00:05:19]>> Okay. So we have taken two. So let me let's be constraint.

[00:05:24]>> Yes. Thank you chair and thank you honorable.

[00:05:28]Honorable this fuel crisis is not just affecting Kenya. It's affecting the whole world due to the due to the war in uh Middle East between the US and Iran. Would you be able to tell us which other country you you have benchmarked your proposals from because this is happening worldwide and uh me I'm I'm a doctor I'm not an economist but I would want to understand where else have you painted these proposals that you are coming up with and it is working. Secondly on the reduction of the seven shilling fuel levy.

[00:06:15]You understand that uh this is on the road maintenance levy. You understand that uh we have seven shillings for the securitization on the infrastructure fund. Could you be having uh other motives that you are targeting that infrastructure fund so that uh the government is not able to deliver on its infrastructure? And lastly, the president pronounced himself after meeting with the with the with the team that we'll have a reduction in the next uh in the next cycle by the April of 10 shillings. But there was this other reduction which was agreed between the transporters of 10 shillings.

[00:07:04]You made a statement that it seems you it seems it's not very clear but when we as a lay man when I go to the petrol station I'm able now to uh put fuel into my car diesel at 232.

[00:07:24]Initially it had gone to 242.

[00:07:27]So what how do you understand that 10 shillings reduction? Is it not happening or you you seem not to have very clear uh understanding of uh that reduction because I think there are two reductions. One will occur in the next cycle and this other one occurred instantly when the team met and agreed to suspend this to to stop the strike.

[00:07:54]Thank you.

[00:07:56]you're the last then can respond.

[00:07:59]>> Thank you chair and thank you brother honorable for your presentation.

[00:08:05]First of all uh most of your proposals I think should come from parliament as bills from what I've uh gone through.

[00:08:14]Number two uh my brother uh the vice chair has spoken about it. the seven shillings that you want reduced from RMLF.

[00:08:26]When you were the chairman here, we had an issue of stalled roads that we could not be able to get funding for out of wisdom from other sources or other people. We were able to securitize that money and were able to pay pending bills and the roads that had stalled were able to be done and new roads are currently being done because of the secitization that some wise people somewhere sat down and thought about it. When you say we reduce that money, you want to tell us, you want us to go back to where we were when you were the chairman of the budget and appropriations committee.

[00:09:10]Lastly, you have spoken about the confidential vote. This confidential vote has assisted this country.

[00:09:24]I don't think uh spoken about. Okay, just let let me leave it at that uh on the RMLF. I don't I don't I don't think we should go that way uh as a committee or as parliament because the securityization has helped us in supporting all the stored roads and started new roads. Thank you chair. You can respond quickly then we can take the second phase of questions.

[00:09:49]>> Thank you very much chair and I will start with the honorable Jati.

[00:09:54]Honorable Chikati, as you are all aware being a member of this committee, economies are dynamic, I've been consistent on what needs to be done when it comes to such a time like this because you asked the VA 16 then it is now 8 and I'm proposing we take it to zero. It's actually not the first time Kenya is having a tax exempt in terms of fuel prices. Before it was eight before, it was actually zero. But this is the reasoning honorable the reasoning is that global oil prices just the economic parameters are dynamic.

[00:10:32]That time we have had a summer in terms of fuel prices globally averaging $60 per barrel. Now we are talking about today it was $90 per barrel but previously it has been $100 per barrel.

[00:10:48]And if you look at my proposal the more the reasoning that this is for in the intervening period of 6 months. So h even when you want to bring the issue of having been chairman of budget it is always or it is important you contextualize that through facts.

[00:11:07]The second thing you asked and now attaching the same question to honorable Kanan.

[00:11:16]What did you do then? Because this was purely the questions is majorly about you are chairman of budget. What did you do? I'm very proud of the interventions that we did. When I came in the first business that we handled in this committee was actually the appropriation of 45 billion Kenya shillings in fuel subsidies. So I walked the talk then I am walking the talk now. It is this committee that did it. Honorable Chikati, you are part of this committee.

[00:11:46]It's not my responsibility to remind you of what we did.

[00:11:54]Um, Honorable Kanan talked about um again about why not do it as a bill.

[00:12:10]when we have proposals like this honorable Kanan and you know I respect you a lot and thank you for even the delight at which you answer the question um we write proposals to parliament it's usually upon the wisdom of the bureaucracy of parliament to choose the path when I wrote the proposals my intention was actually for a bill but the bureaucracy of parliament thought it would take wrong. The turnaround time of a private members's bill will be talking by December. So it will not be helpful at the moment. So that is why the cler actually called me and requested that we do this process using this current scenario. And on the other one of why now and he talked about consistency.

[00:13:01]I think I have exhibited consistency when fuel prices were up in the year 2022.

[00:13:10]My clips are all allowed when I was calling for the then government to reduce fuel prices specifically for such reasons like this and they went ahead and did it. So I've been consistent on that. In fact, you never find anywhere.

[00:13:26]I have been a proponent of higher oil prices nowhere. And even if you found one, it can only be AI generated.

[00:13:34]So in terms of then consistency, we allocated for subsidy. Then when I was chairman, I calling for subsidies now when I am not. I I I we appropriated that money because we thought it was important that we reduce fuel prices then and it is still my intention even now that we reduce fuel prices.

[00:14:02]the vice chair, honorable Pukos.

[00:14:06]The first thing was about fuel prices and which countries I have benchmarked in terms of the interventions and I am I'll try to be very civil in my uh don't take it don't take my word as determinina it's only that I don't have more other words to replace with those as a member of parliament in Kenya my ambition should be for other countries to benchmark with Kenya. It should not be for me to benchmark with other countries. So I'm doing this because it is right for Kenya. I was elected as a member of parliament to sit in the national assembly of Kenya and one of the duties in to benchmark with any other country. It is to make our country a model so that other countries can benchmark with us and that is why I have brought forth the proposals which are objective. But if you ask the question subjectively, I also reserve the right to answer it subjectively.

[00:15:11]On number the Kenya shielding seven for RMLF honorable.

[00:15:18]>> Yes, I I don't want to disrupt you but you know you are appearing before us with proposals for us to consider so that we come up with a legislation that is uh helpful to the economy. So I would propose that uh you you don't you don't display arrogance to the member's questions just give just propose these solutions and we will at the end of the day this committee is supposed to you know adopt resolutions which will be good for the economy but if you if you begin to you know uh talk down the members then it means you're not expecting these members to adopt your resolutions. I think spend more time persuading members they'll be able to you know adopt your resolutions for the sake of the of the economy. Please proceed.

[00:16:00]Chairman, I'm I'm well guided and if you note the way I answered honorable Kenyan, it is exactly the same way he asked question. If you replay the question of the honorable member I'm replying to, I'm replying with the exact same gim. So going to the issue of RMA level seven shillings and the honorable insulated that the money has been securitized.

[00:16:29]I was yes.

[00:16:32]>> Yes. Okay. Now this is a house I have a lot of respect for my good friend. This house of records we are aware all of us are parliamentary practitioners and the whole dinoro is an experienced legislator.

[00:16:48]When you appear before a parliamentary committee basically which is an extension of the house you expected to abide by all the rules and therefore whereas in your appearance in your responses you attempt to respond to what a particular member has asked your obligation is to the me to the entire membership not to that particular member. To that extent I request you because really this is everything here is on hand.

[00:17:22]It is going to be historical. Our brother here and times change, positions change. Kenya remains. He was our chairman. Tomorrow he may be the minister for finance. The other day because he ages on the side he may be something even bigger. We must be procedural.

[00:17:40]procedural does not mean you are being demeaned. So I expected you to say when I ask a question as a member of parliament for elders and as a member of this committee the answer belongs to the entire committee.

[00:17:54]So that bit and I know he's not saying so that bit I think must be corrected so that what we get is directed at the entire membership not to the person who has asked so that we remain procedural.

[00:18:07]I rest my case.

[00:18:10]Just on a point of order.

[00:18:11]>> Yes.

[00:18:13]chair, I'm not satisfied with the first with the response about uh my question because uh you know there's what we call evidence based and the reason why I was asking is that this is a global phenomena from my point of view as even as a medical doctor you've had outbreaks of Ebola you've had outbreaks the other day of corona. Yeah. And we borrow evidence from other areas on what they are doing.

[00:18:50]They are doing immunization. So this is a global phenomena and I would expected fine you you are an economist. I'm a medical doctor.

[00:19:02]I would expected this has not happened anywhere. These proposals are these are my original proposals and that would be satisfied that it has not been done in any other country. I would be satisfied that answer. Yeah.

[00:19:16]But because once you you you know we must be able to respect each other's professions.

[00:19:24]I cannot I if it's an economic question I'll ask you. If it's a medical question I you you I'm the expert on that. I'll be able to advise you. So I was asking just as a layman, where has this happened? These proposals you are coming up with. They look they they look brilliant but where are they coming from? Are they your original or you've copied them from somewhere else? That's the question. Thank you. So I think the the point raised by the honorable Kenan is valid that you are responding to the committee. the questions are are not for the individual members who ask them. So please desist from responding in a manner like you are trying to uh you know to respond to the to the questioner let us uh let the your feedback be for the benefit of the of the entire sitting and the entire committee. Thank you. You can proceed and I'm well guided. It was just the atmosphere that was there before.

[00:20:25]uh and I'll try as much as possible to be objective but I also request you that even in the asking of the questions uh we also be objective uh honorable vice chair um these are my original proposals but the other countries that have done something about oil prices many of them I just highlight a few uh a country like Zambia they have done something around VAT and others.

[00:20:56]However, I have only read that qualitatively.

[00:20:59]The reasoning uh for this honorable Pukos and chair is that the proposals where you may need some evidence based it is a place where you may not be able to quant to quantify. Now my proposals are quantifiable because it's only purely about money. it is either money forfeiting money or spending money and that is the reasoning uh members that I didn't find it fit uh to borrow these proposals from any other country maybe peace meal but not holistic yes they are my original Yes.