What REALLY happened when the Rwanda Uganda border was closed by Paul Kagame

Added: 2026-05-24

[00:00:00]I got to really know your work and who you are during the times between I think it was 2019 when we're seeing border closures >> and major tensions.

[00:00:15]When there's a border closure, that doesn't just say that we're stopping trade and movement of people. We're saying that there is a breakdown in trust.

[00:00:28]I don't trust you enough to allow you in my country and to allow my citizens into yours. From your position, what what did the situation look like behind closed doors? Because we know what it looked like in the media on social media, uh, trucks not moving, people being forced to fly rather than drive the way they used to. And I'd like to know what it looked like behind closed doors. And I'd also like to know how close it became to becoming something much much worse because as we've seen in with uh some of these uh issues around the globe, one chess moves creates another chess move that then creates another chess move and then all of a sudden >> even us in Africa are suffering from very expensive petroleum.

[00:01:24]>> Walk us through that time. Uh thank you.

[00:01:28]I will uh also take you back uh a little back like 10 years before >> when I became a diplomat.

[00:01:36]>> That's in 2009.

[00:01:38]>> 2007 >> not earlier than that 2005 >> when I became ambassador of Uganda tow >> you know 2019 is recent.

[00:01:51]>> We have had series of tension. It's our relationship has been unfortunately >> it was through phases up and down you know since around early 2000s I mean I don't want to bore you with the history but as you know these two countries are you know you go 1990 >> you know these you know even earlier 1988s this uh two uh not governments movements RPF and NRM go a long You know people know each other. Our leaders are one. I mean your president could as well be a hero of the Ugandan revolution. He was among the 27 people that liberated this country. He's my hero from that. He's my liberator from that perspective. So you're dealing with two movements that know each other. Uh but unfortunately when the two states I think where we failed to manage was the relationship between the two states not the two peoples. So you're saying there's a difference between interstate versus inter people.

[00:02:55]>> Inter people. Yes. And that is that is really fundamental.

[00:02:59]>> Uh because I don't think people Ran people and Ugandan people have a problem a fundamental problem. I mean you actually portrayed yourself and myself.

[00:03:09]I consider myself as Ugandan but also as Randes because that's that's my origins and I'm proud to call myself you know I don't want to sound American you know Ugandan Randes no I'm both Ugandan and because I share their braies within me >> uh but I think to really answer your question I think there was unfortunate tension between the two countries that went through phases you know that led even to the unfortunate fights in Kangani when our two armies were in Congo pursuing you know security objectives um 2019 was really a culmination of a long mismanagement of the two state affairs of the two states and I don't want to aortion blame it was an unfortunate situation how do I come in >> but maybe before you go into how you come in so there are a lot of people I remember during the time. So n uh 2019 2020 a lot of people would young people in Randa even people my age who would ask me but what is going on here?

[00:04:22]Why is it this way? You talk about history there's a lot of people who actually don't even understand the history. There's a an entire generation who do not I mean you think about NRM NRM has been in power since 1986 >> that's uh 40 years >> uh the RPF has been in power uh for 32 years now >> there's an entire generation even two generations that >> don't understand >> the inner workings of the personal relationships that then create the kind of t state by state tensions that we see. Maybe you can, you know, help us understand the why.

[00:05:10]>> Why are there tensions? Why would there be tensions based off of what?

[00:05:16]>> Yeah. I mean when you introduce the concept of a state in the relationship between peoples and I think 94 when after the genocide when the other people went into power to me that was a fundamental departure fundamental change and this side of the border we needed to really understand that >> so fundamental change between what and what >> between people who were friends people who had fought together in Uganda a creation of another state >> mm M >> which is a Rwanda state. How now that relates to the Ugandan state is important and I think the seeds for problems were laid in how initially that was managed.

[00:06:00]>> I think people took a lot of things for granted.

[00:06:03]You know Rwanda became a state on its own >> not a district of Uganda.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah. And you had such a things in the newspapers in Uganda that this was the 40th district.

[00:06:15]>> Yes. like 50th district.

[00:06:16]>> 50th district. Then we had 40th district. Now we have over 100. So to me that was really careless.

[00:06:26]That was beginning because states are a creation of the western world western concept >> and it comes with how it's managed. You know the people the institutions you know states don't need to be friends but they need to be managed well see that people >> can be friends >> can be friends but states don't need to be friends can be they become the interests come into play the borders you know me and you we can proudly say that we became victim of borders but most people didn't they are Ugandans, they are one and that needs to be managed by these are neo colonial states.

[00:07:15]It's difficult to manage themh you know uh and and I think you know our leaders had to come in and make sure that you know they manage these states properly.

[00:07:28]I mean the closure of the border 2019 was a wakeup call.

[00:07:34]I I had people asking me how could the Rwanda border be closed? Nobody has a right to close this border. But I reminded people here that the government of Rwanda can close their border.

[00:07:44]>> Why was that so shocking? It seems as if it shocked the system here. It it it it it did in a way because people finally realized that Rwanda was a state that could take decisions however unparable they are to Uganda and we needed to respond to that by listening and trying to figure out the reasons and respond and and I think to me that really woke up and I hopefully we learned lessons that will not be repeated >> but 26 because at the time it would have 26 years.

[00:08:23]Uh, is that 26 years? Yes.

[00:08:25]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:26]>> 26 years after 94.4.

[00:08:28]>> Why would it take people to understand 26 years to understand?

[00:08:32]>> Exactly. Because people don't understand that states are states.

[00:08:40]It's it's a European concept which we need to learn to live with. You know, you have to have a formal relationship.

[00:08:48]When I became ambassador at Kegali, I pushed an idea that we should have memorandum of understanding on how we manage every sector >> from livestock to transport uh to law and order. We should have you know an extradition treaty >> so that when there is a problem it's managed by interstate not that I know sunny >> hey hey sunny >> you know I'm I'm in trouble in Rwanda traffic can you please help me >> yes >> or so but given that the societies were interconnected and interrelated it was difficult even for officials to understand that but I could see that if we didn't really officialize the way we related, we were inevitably going to be in trouble. And I was fairly vocal into within our system that we needed to really make sure that the relationship was formal. And 2019 when it happens, we are kind of stuck. We go now. How do we address this? And I think the lessons we have learned and you asked about closed door the way these things are >> perceived and it's like first it's a shock second is what did we do wrong and how can we correct it >> can I ask you a question um listening to say uh president Paul speeches around that time >> and he would talk about I asked them to do this we asked for this we We talked about this. We said this and this and this.

[00:10:29]Why would you be shocked after conversations have already been had? Cuz if you were to tell me, Sunny, I have a problem with you because of this, this, this, this, this, and this.

[00:10:42]And if we want to continue being friends, let's let's try to figure out this, this, this, and this.

[00:10:49]And then I tell it to you in very clear language, not uh what we call in kinaran amarena not gestures >> then where is the disconnect because I also also believe that communication is not just about saying it's also about how the other person perceives >> the information and acts on the information where was the disconnect from what was being requested >> uh sist uh states are run by individuals >> uh uh and the way they process information even clear requests >> you know come and the way they are processed I think the problem was the informality the informality of the relationship between the two states has had reached very dangerous kind of level informality I mean informality even if a message is clear I said ah we will talk to them >> they are my friends >> they're my friends we will talk to them then frustration builds and and and I think that's the lesson we learned >> from the unfortunate incidents of the border closure in 2019.

[00:12:03]And and I you know I've been working for these states for some some time now.

[00:12:09]You have to really appreciate the fact that Rwanda and Uganda is really a special case >> of how states how not states relate.

[00:12:22]It's a case of how states should not relate.

[00:12:25]>> Tell me more >> in the past >> because you you cannot have informality running states. You have to have institutions that relate with each other across the border. Yeah. Uh you you you have to have channels of communication that are predictable and and uh as I really did my job both as ambassador and even after I left as ambassador, I was privileged the president trust me to be a special envoy tower. I realized that you know we needed to do more than having personal relationships. we needed to but every time there was always >> push back >> push back and and until unfortunately we reached 2019 but I'm happy that some of the important people rised that that also you needed to use those individual contacts to uh promote formal interstate relations you can it is easy actually to build on that >> don't mistake me you know individual relationships are important >> that's how I managed to work as ambassador in Kari at a very difficult time you know given my unique background you know having relationship across the border I would use those relationship to make sure that we advance our interests and interests between Rwanda and Uganda are easy to discern to discern they are not we don't have a border conflict >> you know people-to-people relationship are excellent now later another really positive layer was added we are part of the east African community where the treaty really allows movement of people and goods so eas >> but again I'm happy that now we are in a better space and as the relationship became really intractably complic complex to manage other players came on board uh >> to to play as spoilers >> to play to play a positive role There was no one who was paying a cuz whenever there's a conflict >> there'll both be >> in the past we had a lot of spoilers >> from both sides a lot of spoilers >> were they individual states or organizations or individual >> no individuals powerful individuals >> on both sides of the >> on both sid both sides of the border um and I dealt with both of with them and here they would push back there they would push back and I had partners in Rwanda that I worked with that saw That really was the same thinking. Huh?

[00:15:06]>> What were what? Okay, let's because you said you dealt with spoilers on both sides. So to understand the problems, it's also sometimes good to also understand >> what we call them spoilers, but it's also maybe someone with a counternarrative.

[00:15:21]>> Yeah.

[00:15:22]>> So help me understand your experience of say what was the counternarrative >> say in Uganda? What was the counternarrative in Ronda?

[00:15:32]you know spoilers in a sense that you know when you're managing such a states you know there's a there's a tendency to be nationalistic they are wrong >> and we're correct I think it was more complex than that then when you believe like that you inevitably become a spoiler >> you know you have to realize that these are states with interests you I cannot be a Ugandan official and say Uganda does not does not have its interests that are that I must respect and respond on to >> or vice versa and that was lacking.

[00:16:06]>> It was a zam game.

[00:16:08]>> I I win and they lose.

[00:16:10]>> Exactly. And we found ourself in that situation.

[00:16:15]And to me when joined the East African community to me I celebrated why our interests were intertwined.

[00:16:23]But then when I think about Uganda and Rhonda, I see us as a there is no interest of Rhonda that goes anti the interests of of Uganda >> and vice versa. Why ours should be I think sometimes the easiest ones.

[00:16:48]>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and once you do that conceptualization it's easy to understand but in reality when it collides with reality there is a problem but it should be easy I mean look at both countries I mean one time I made I did an experiment when the problems between one and Uganda were at it climax I sat at Katuna border >> on the Ugandan side I sat there for a whole day and counted trucks that were crossing from Wanda to Uganda and from Uganda to Wanda and the trucks that were crossing to Uganda were 10 times more than the ones that were crossing from I said Uganda here has a trade advantage >> why wouldn't I protect that >> by promoting a good relationship >> yes >> you see now I'm going to c national interest >> even from that >> whatever angle you look at it >> the balance of trade >> it's a win-win Mhm.

[00:17:51]It's a win-win. So then the East African community brings in a treaty that really makes all East African countries one even to defense and security.

[00:18:01]You know the the sovereign areas where states cooperate there are clear guidelines. I I think when I think the issue of siblings comes in >> I think when siblings fight it becomes more intractable than people who don't know each other. M >> but we had to reach a stage where we had to become grown up siblings and really uh improve and really but to really thank our leadersh and president Kagam it could have been worse what let's create a worst case scenario because again things when when border closures come into being I think I was having a conversation with one of our mutual friends Andrew Menda last year and he was talking about just how close >> it was >> it was to actual actual armed conflict >> it was and I was privy to it >> and that's what >> was it actually >> you know there's you there's him then there's you >> right was it actually as >> it was it was and that kept me awake at night >> there was actually going to be a shooting war >> yeah and we would have reached a reversible stage me and you maybe would not be seated here >> hey if you Like this snippet? There's a lot more waiting for you on the Long Form Podcast YouTube channel. Go check out the full conversation. And while you're there, hit the subscribe button so you don't miss what's coming