Landau analyses refugee processing and deportation plans

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]uh you are doing is exploring comparative perspectives on how mobility is shaping the politics of rapidly diversifying and expanding communities and you have looked at the South African situation in particular.

[00:00:21]>> Absolutely right and I should note I'm I'm still also at the University of the Vivard in Johannesburg. So uh yes I mean we are looking at this we're looking at at responses to migrants around the world and what we see in South Africa of course is in line with what we see in the UK in the United States and elsewhere where people who are facing enormous uncertainty in their own lives are turning against immigrants blaming them for the the challenges that they face uh taking joy as you see in in expelling them from their communities.

[00:00:52]All of this while distracting themselves from the real issues which are are behind uh the the problems that they're they're addressing they're trying to address. Of course I mean places like Europe um this anti- immigrant sentiments have been blamed on uh economic uncertainty on domestic uh political pressures. Um, is that also the case or it's just that's also the case in in in South Africa?

[00:01:24]>> Yeah, I think what we see in many parts of the world is that when the political and economic order starts to become shaky, where there is increased competition for politics like we're seeing in in South Africa, especially with the local government elections where national governments are losing credibility, people will turn to scapegoating. they turn to kind of nationalist or uh uh kind of communitarian rhetoric to try to gain support to try to make themselves feel secure and that is precisely what we're seeing in South Africa where uh officials whether the local level counselors or other kinds of leaders of marches or new political parties are don't have much to offer in terms of a concrete plan for making life better. So they turn to this kind of of rhetoric uh to try to to offer what is effectively a false promise to the South African people.

[00:02:19]Well, I mean, in in in Europe, for example, um I mean, in addition to the couple um of reasons I've I've I've mentioned, there's also been or people often add um right the the rise of right leaning parties and I'm isolating this because when the people who have seen who have been driving um this I mean who have been behind their marches like your marches and matches um we seeing now for example uh even on our screen members of the MK party um being part um of that uh of that movement or or or sentiment and yet such a party like the MK party for example doesn't regard or don't regard themselves as being as being right-wing >> right I think the dimensions of politics in South Africa are somewhat different.

[00:03:21]Uh the right-wing leftwing doesn't really map very well onto the way in which South African politics exists now.

[00:03:27]It's unclear where we would put even the major parties on on that scale. where I think there is a kind of commonality is an effort to try to uh capitalize on on disaection among uh especially young voters but among a broader voting public and to try to use that kind of communitarian idea to build a support whether that's on the right or the left no one has a monopoly on this and I think what we see in South Africa is now this is the strategy people are using to try to gain support and in that way they're very similar to a Trump they're similar between Nigel Farage and the Reform Party uh in England or or alternatives for Dutchland in in Germany.

[00:04:10]>> What the question I suppose is is is what needs to be done. I mean a lot of people have been saying well the government by and large is is blue ticking this this problem to use modern parlance um hoping and praying that it'll disappear and yet the reality as far as many people are concerned is that it is not going to disappear not anytime soon.

[00:04:36]I think the even what the problem is varies greatly depending on who you ask.

[00:04:41]Is the problem the attacks on the foreigners or is the problem as many South Africans understand it that there is too much immigration. And I think what what the government is under enormous pressure to do is respond to the South African population to show that they're doing something to try to regulate migration. migration numbers have not increased dramatically, but the politics around it has made it an imperative that they do something. It wouldn't be hard to stop this kind of movement. Holding people accountable for uh for the violence, holding people accountable for hate speech would dramatically sort of deflate these movements. But instead of that, what we're having is basically endorsement, implicit or complicit endorsement from all levels of politics for this kind of speech and really for this kind of action. Will that make South African safer? Will it ultimately stop people from coming to South Africa? Probably not. But what it does do is show that the government is doing something.

[00:05:40]What have what have what have other countries or jurisdictions that have been uh a lot more successful in managing the problem done that which >> uh we are not doing.

[00:05:55]>> What we see around the world is that people get upset about immigration when two things happen. one when they personally feel uncertain usually because of economics or or conflict and when they have a sense that the borders are out of control that this is part of their uncertainty whether it's the UK or the United States it doesn't have much to do with numbers it doesn't have much to do with the real impact of immigration but what governments need to do to address that is suggest that they're in control to change the narrative to suggest show that they are doing something to give people a sense that they are managing this process. Of course, South Africa is struggling to manage many processes, whether it's water or electricity or crime or infrastructure.

[00:06:39]The government has lost control of many things. This is one where I think they can show that they're doing something and unfortunately that means uh more border controls. It means deportations, but that really ultimately it might satisfy the South African people, but it's not going to make life better for anybody. And that is the problem, isn't it? It's a lot of these things are easier said uh than done. I mean, the president can wake up on a um uh on a on a on a Monday morning and send us a letter that says um we should uh we shouldn't treat uh foreign nationals the way the way we do. a minister or a premier or an MSE or a mayor can stand in front of people and say we are doing something about your unemployment situation about our education um and but if people are not feeling it in or experiencing that um in their lives chances are they're not going to listen uh or read those speeches.

[00:07:45]>> That's absolutely right. and and people are often the their emotions are being fanned through social media, through algorithms that reinforce much of what they already feel. So if what they're looking at one day is is a message about how immigrants are stealing jobs or causing crime, the next day they're seeing more and more of those images and that tends to circulate. Those who are trying to counter those message have been far less savvy than March on March or Doula or MK in getting those messages out that immigration is not the source of their problem. The only one we're really hearing that from is Julius Malemma who has tried to reframe this discussion. But we also see that his popularity is declining and he clearly is not reaching the average South African.

[00:08:29]Does it necessarily follow then prof as long as we are not dealing with the problems that give rise to an anti-immigration uh uh sentiment anti-immigrant sentiment um then no amount of uh words or warnings or cautioning people will actually help us resolve solve this problem for as long as we are not able to deal with the underlying causes of what makes people to be angry and to take their anger, you know, um on on on immigrants.

[00:09:14]>> Obviously, we would like to see everyone being offered a job, getting access to housing, feeling safe on the streets.

[00:09:21]Those things will take a long time. uh and and it seems unlikely that that's going to happen in before the next election cycle. What can happen however is condemnation of the violence and a reframing at the political level to say look we will sec accept uh responsibility we have not delivered or you the opposition party I'm fighting has not delivered and let's focus on those things let's focus on why it is that you don't have water why you don't have a job that however given the structure of government given the coalition government that we have a government of unity that's particularly unlikely to happen as different parties are not fighting fighting each other.

[00:09:59]They rather seem to be fighting somebody else, which in this case is immigrants.

[00:10:03]And that seems likely to continue.

[00:10:05]>> And we have an election in a few months uh a time probably going to make matters worse as uh the various political parties and people contesting um elections try to of course have an edge over their competitors.

[00:10:29]Thank you very much, Prof, for your time.