“We DON'T Have Two-Tier Policing" | Jeremy Kyle CLASHES With Labour MP

Added: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]and delighted and by that I mean this because there aren't many people that have the uh the courage the guts or the desire to stick their head above the parapit the Labour MP for St. Olan Nuki very posh Noah Law good morning >> morning >> um he said off air I used to watch you on the telly the poor man so he's obviously affected um Noah there's so much I want to talk to you about um firstly and obviously about the appalling situation with Henry Noak we know now what happened we've seen the police uh response there are people calling for prosecutions we know about the IOPC um I got a text this morning at 6:25 And I've asked all MPs this as the first question. Theresa said that six years ago when George Floyd and it didn't matter as I said before the break what George Floyd had done in his life. He was callously killed at the hands of well criminal police uhmen in California who were later jailed. Um the world recoiled in horror. Everybody took the knee. coppers, football supporters, politicians, your own leader, Kia Starmer. What annoyed this woman is this. There was a minute silence in the House of Commons for George Floyd and the House of Lords. Nobody in any position in the last 48 hours has thought it wise to suggest that Matt Vickers is taking this to the speaker.

[00:01:27]Nigel Farer, Nigel um Evans is going to speak to Celinda Hill. Kate uh Katie Lamb is going. Nick Timothy is going. Do you support a minute silence for this young boy in both houses?

[00:01:38]>> I mean, I'd happily take a minute silence myself. Obviously, I don't direct business in the house, but um it's obviously devastating for Henry's family and um just such an awful incident and and as you suggest such awful incompetence at the heart of it, which has to be held to account.

[00:01:57]>> Um great, great to hear that. Um I started this morning. I know different politicians have had their say. Nigel Farage speaking yesterday. He said white lives matter and paused. He said as much as black lives and people tore into him and said you're talking unfairly. Kemmy Benedo came out and said all lives matter which I think is where I stand. and your leader came out and said that um it was wrong for politicians to use the family's misery um and he wasn't going to get into that. Um I sort of feel that was somewhat of a shield because he won't face up to the reality and this is the accusation against Starmer I think from many people. Certainly in the last election he lost five seats including Jonathan Ashworth in leads to independent candidates, Muslim candidates who have every right to stand but they only stood on a Gaza ticket. We know that they won.

[00:02:52]>> [snorts] >> Is it fair to say of your leader that he refuses to deal with things that matter to millions of Britons for fear of upsetting a certain minority or a certain group or perhaps in even bigger criticism people who he knows would usually have voted for him?

[00:03:09]>> No, I don't think that's what's occurring at all, Jeremy. I think this is the time for uh calm and collected reflection and a proper investigation as the IOPC is undertaking. Um Henry's family themselves have said precisely what the prime minister has suggested that we do not use this event to sew up any more division than is already out there. But but there's division because there's unfairness >> that there is there is division because and I'm and I'm I've had the conversation for three hours and I think it's a really important conversation.

[00:03:42]The last thing no I want to give the impression of is that we're just banging some drum here. But let me ask you this.

[00:03:49]Peter Blexley a brilliant commentator and ex- police officer came yesterday and he talked about the incompetence of the police. He also said a question which I set to you. How would we as a society when you consider George Floyd have responded to the Henry Novak thing if Henry Novak had been sick and the thug that beat him up and lied to the police had been white? I suspect and it makes me sick to the stomach because there isn't all racism is abhorrent.

[00:04:18]There would be a very very different response right now.

[00:04:21]>> Well, I I think the that people are united to a degree as much as some people are trying to say division.

[00:04:27]people are united in their disgust at what's happened and and and I think that the response of the public has been that of shock and appalledness um at what's happened. So I I don't know exactly what you're suggesting but >> why is there two-tier [clears throat] policing encouraged by your government?

[00:04:44]>> No, the the two-tier policing concept is is something that's been invented by Farage and others to to basically so division. I mean it it it's >> so it doesn't exist. We don't have two-tier policing.

[00:04:57]>> But what about the National Police Chiefs Council saying, "Our commitment to racial equity means producing equality of policing outcomes for people from different ethnic groups," which is great. But goes on to say, "By responding to individuals and communities according to their specific needs and then says it does not mean treating everyone the same."

[00:05:16]>> No, that's >> that's that's two-tier policing. I I wouldn't say that because one has to appreciate the difference between equality and and equity and that can mean adjusting for whatever biases the the police may have. So and and and that's really important because you know not everyone is the same. You don't treat everyone the same. I'm sure I'm sure you would agree with that. [snorts] >> No, no, but but surely this was I think it was Edward Lee. Can I play you a clip actually? Edward Lee yesterday in the Commons. I thought he's the oldest MP.

[00:05:47]He's older than me. Um, he's been there about 100 years. He made a point that I think is quite relevant. Can we play the Edward Lee clip?

[00:05:54]>> I agree with everything the Home Secretary says, and I agree that we shouldn't weaponize this issue, but nor should we tiptoe around it. The truth is that many white people in this country feel that the police are so terrified of being called racist that either they underreact in the case of the appalling grooming scandal or they overreact in this case. So there is a role for the home secretary now. She needs to really summon in these top police officers and say things have got to change. We are all equal. Don't be terrified of what people think about you. Just carry out the law as you're supposed to do as police officers.

[00:06:33]>> I think everybody would agree with Edward Lee, wouldn't they?

[00:06:36]>> Yeah. I mean, I think I think it's a fair point to say that that you you know that that we shouldn't have this differential treatment other than for appreciating the context of what's gone on. But I think people at here are trying to read into this a context that that perhaps doesn't exist. That of course well no I mean listen it's a debate and everybody and I appreciate you being here. I did an interview some time ago, several months ago, maybe a year ago, with an ex senior ranking police officer in Rotherham who said, and I quote, and he said it, it's on the record. Um, I said, "Why has it taken you eight years to bring these these people to justice? They've been raping young girls." He said, "Well, we we we didn't we didn't want to stir up any tension, and so we've taken our time and done it in the right way." And the point that Edward Lee is making is if whether it's is for me, crime is crime. It doesn't matter about the color of your skin. You're nothing. It's irrelevant.

[00:07:34]>> But there are many examples I think nowadays where people in this country feel that it just isn't done like that.

[00:07:42]And I think they feel that the Henry Novak situation rather sums that up.

[00:07:48]>> I don't I don't think this is that the situation here. I mean that we're not talking for a start about Rotherham.

[00:07:54]We're talking about uh Southampton. And it's really important that we just look at the context of of of this incident.

[00:08:01]And you know, I think if almost if you played um without the sort of some of the divisive commentary that's that's come up around this, if you'd simply played the incident, >> what who's been divisive?

[00:08:16]>> Well, well, there are people that are saying that that there was kind of a racial motivation. I don't think that's what was going through the police's mind. Again, there needs to be >> What is going through their mind when a guy with respect? Well, either they're the most incompetent police officer or they're terrified of their own shadow cuz there's a kid that even I could tell from 200 miles away down the line was I don't mean to upset anybody was choking on his own blood and you've got a copper going I don't think you have been stabbed mate.

[00:08:42]>> I don't I personally >> whilst he's believing a bloke I'm being completely serious.

[00:08:47]>> Personally, I didn't read this kind of racial lens into it. I think unfortunately, Jeremy, the the Britain I grew up in isn't one where we see everything through the prism of race.

[00:08:59]And unfortunately, there are people trying to create that Britain.

[00:09:02]>> Why don't you think we're all equal?

[00:09:04]>> Why don't you think we're all equal?

[00:09:05]>> Well, that's just reality. That is that that we're not all equal in that in that sense, you know. So, so we all have differences. We should all be treated equally >> in the eyes of the law. We should all be equal.

[00:09:18]>> Yes. And it's really important that that that equal treatment recognizes contextual factors to ensure equity and and I'm sure most people are familiar with the the difference between equality and equity, aren't they?

[00:09:30]>> Yeah. I I just I agree with you, but I also fight against not having this conversation for fear of people saying we're only talking about this conversation.

[00:09:43]We have to have this conversation because it seems to me that the very fabric of what I mean like when I was a kid you were scared of the police. Now people can go into a supermarket or an offlic and nick 200 quid and just laugh at the police. There's no police on the streets and I blame the tourists for that. Don't think I'm blaming your lot in in your instance. But there is an ideology from the top and whether it's perpetrated by government or not. You know um that that that certain people are treated differently. that there are different offending rates, whether people like this or not, >> amongst different ethnicities. That's an absolute fact. I'm not saying I had a I had a a woman the other day say to me, I was talking about the one of the situations in Bournemouth where I live and and two illegal migrants that had sat this girl and they got off in the court and I was saying to this female how disgusting this was and she went, "White men rape women as well." I said, "I don't care what the color of your skin. If you rape a woman or you rape a child or you stab a kid on the street, I don't care where you come from. I want you off the street and in prison. That's how I genuinely see it.

[00:10:44]>> Yeah, absolutely. We we can all agree with that. But um I mean I I guess for me it's just this seeing everything through the lens of race. It's relentless.

[00:10:55]>> Do you think that certain races are treated differently?

[00:10:59]>> Yes, I do. I mean racist >> by the police.

[00:11:02]>> Um I I can't speak for every individual police officer. There will be police officers that are racist.

[00:11:08]There was certainly racism in the police forces years and years ago. I want to make that point. I think that's a really important point. But I wonder whether in a view of trying to balance that a bit like DI, we've gone too far the other way. That's that would be my sort of summing up.

[00:11:24]>> Personally, I don't see it that way.

[00:11:25]That's not even what I see in this in incidents. And by all means, bring forward other examples where you you think that might be the case. But I don't look at this horrible incident and read that kind of racial lens into it. I read it through a lens of sheer professional incompetence which needs to be investigated.

[00:11:44]>> Do you think those police officers should be prosecuted and jailed if that I mean one's got a full pension?

[00:11:49]>> That's that's not my decision to make.

[00:11:51]Absolutely not. These things have to be investigated independently and that's really important to make that point as well.

[00:11:56]>> And you'll hit me over the head after we go off there. Uh do you want Star in or out? I think the PM needs to continue what he's doing.

[00:12:03]>> So, you're not an Andy Bernham fan?

[00:12:04]>> I'm very much an Andy Burnham fan as as we uh as we documented here the other the other week. Um but of course, both of them have got to got a job to do and and in my case, that that job is delivering the the deal that I'm looking for for Cornwall. So, I've made that very clear that that's uh that's the condition of my my >> I don't want to sound like your dad, but you're pretty good at this at 32. I really appreciate you being in and I mean that because it's important that we get all sides on this station as often as possible. No law. Thank you very much indeed. It is 3 minutes to 9. He would talk breakfast.