Why is Right-Wing Populism rising in Australia?

本站添加: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to the rightest leftist. I am the rightest leftist Nathan Oggovy and today on the show we're discussing economics and populism and the rise of one nation with our special guest Owen from the Australian Prosperity Institute. Hey, >> welcome Owen.

[00:00:14]>> Hey, >> thank you for coming on the show.

[00:00:17]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:00:18]>> This is going to be this episode is going to be a little bit of a companion piece to your podcast with uh our friend Ethan called GE.

[00:00:26]>> Yeah. So my my first question is what is GE and what does GE mean to you?

[00:00:32]>> Um G is a podcast I'm making with my mate Ethan. Um basically we just take you know we take a question uh every week and I you know both of us try and figure out the answer to the question and we talk about it. Um yeah, but the idea is I think what's is the the answers sort of maybe, >> you know, dial the temperature down a little bit and have a bit of raisin and it's it's not uh Yeah. So sort of, you know, chill answers, I suppose.

[00:00:57]>> Yeah.

[00:00:57]>> Yeah.

[00:00:58]>> Yeah. Cuz in Australia, we're we've especially with the rise of One Nation that we're going to talk about today. Um I don't know how dramatic to say but it's been a big shift in the political landscape because even in the last election there was almost a year ago now they got like 6 and a half%. And then they've now been tested in South Australia and in the bi-election in EP and have get like between 20 to 25%. So that was something that in your podcast that I've been listening to those episodes on the rise of one nation. It sounds like you and Ethan were talking about that through two different lenses like the economics of what's going on in Australia and the cultural issues >> and it sounds like you sort of landed that it's sort of somewhere in the middle. So maybe to the audience I would hope everyone goes and checks out good and have a listen before you listen to this but >> thanks for the show.

[00:01:44]>> If you just listen to this if you're just listening to this go over and subscribe. If you're just listening to this do you want to give us maybe what like the the one or two minute summary of that thesis of what do you and and Ethan's sort of off to the side. I might disclose here. He's like a bit of a ghost hanging on. But um what's your your Ethan thesis for why one nation's rising?

[00:02:03]>> I don't think we really landed on a a uh singular issue. It's definitely like a very fascinating thing that's happening in Australian politics. Um you know, I mean, if you look to the Victorian election, like looking at polls for the upcoming Victorian election, it it almost looks like Europe. Like it's, you know, it could very much be like a multi-party coalition. that could be the territory that we're heading towards, which is really, really interesting. Um, the rise of one nation, I thought it was really interesting because it kind of mirrored a lot of changes that have been happening overseas and it almost felt like Australia was just lagging a little bit like we might be, you know, 10, 15 years behind like the UK had Brexit and then the rise of reform and, you know, everybody knows obviously like Trump and MAGA in the States, but then also all the way through Europe, you know, there's these like populist right parties that are just just sprouting up and a lot of them have been around forever, you know, like Marine Le Pen's father, you know, was was saying similar things to what Marine Le Pen's saying.

[00:03:02]Um but for some reason that you know these these far-right parties have just found this recent legitimacy and then Australia sort of follows maybe maybe their lead you know with with One Nation having this resurgence and Pauline Hansen you're right like coming out of the woodwork like you know coming from from the political wastelands and then all of a sudden hitting you know like being second in the polls you know uh >> and and in the votes in South Australia.

[00:03:32]>> Yeah. And um and it hasn't really translated into many seats yet, which is another kind of interesting thing. But um you know, you would you would it it follows that there's a lot of Australian people who are really upset with the status quo and they're really cranky and they're looking for especially on the right like Liberal voters are trying to find a place to park their protest vote.

[00:03:51]And also, as we were talking about, some some Labour voters in their sort of outer suburban seats where they're like maybe like more, you know, like working class or or what have you. you know, some of them are bleeding out to One Nation as well. So, there's just general disaection with the state of things. And me and Ethan were sort of throwing out we threw out sort of three, I guess, hypotheses for why why Australians might be sort of disaffected and and upset with the status quo. You know, the first one's the economy. And we sort of said that maybe it's a little bit naive to just think it's just economic even though there are things that are difficult in the economy like housing and you know rising inequality and and you know job insecurity etc etc. um cultural thing is like is a difficult thing for leftwing people to talk about because you know it's you you sort of have to I mean the scary thing is that if if the you know if the economy gets fixed and this they still believe that you know they still believe that that that immigrants are this huge you know problem even even if they could buy a house for for $200,000.

[00:04:54]>> Mhm.

[00:04:55]>> Um that's kind of spooky. Um and then the other thing that I think we didn't mention but um was was this you know this social media uh medium is the message kind of argument like you know the the way that we consume news has changed and um now it's just you know compared to TV which has gatekeepers and you know it's I mean it can be nuts it was nuts in the 2000s and the 90s but it's it's not as like you know uh feeble and explosive as vertical video and Instagram and maybe One Nation just suit this era of communications.

[00:05:29]>> Well, yeah. And Paul Hansen's YouTube channel is pretty wild. If you've seen it, they've got these animations and things. Yeah.

[00:05:35]>> They're exploiting that. Yeah. So, I think at a very basic level, it's not just one thing. There's a lot going on in politics in Australia that could be leading to this.

[00:05:44]>> I think just go back to the very basic like One Nation, I think most people agree, is like a populist party. Meaning that with a populist framing at its basic is it's everyday people versus the elites. And that's kind of how Pauline Hansen is framing herself. And that message seems to have been resonating with people because if we look at it, there's there's without grouping everyone together, there's a few different kinds of One Nation voters.

[00:06:08]There's the ones that have always supported them. So because they did get, you know, 6 and a half% nationally is still pretty decent. Uh so they've got their voters that have always been with them. But the reality is, let's just say even at its best, it's like 20% of the national vote, which is about the average of the polls. That means like nearly 14% of people have changed their mind since last election and thought we'll give them a go. Do you think I I think this and I've you know I've been doing a series of videos on that. I think it does come from that messaging about the elites that people are pretty pissed off with whoever we define the elites as that that message seems to have been resonating with with a bunch of people.

[00:06:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. And the Liberal Party really represents the elites, I think, more so than the Nationals, who kind of agrarian socialists and, you know, supposedly represent the country, although I I personally think they represent mining interests, but that's uh neither here nor there. But um the the Liberals, you know, like they're they're historically have been on the side of, you know, big business and and that might be sort of toxic in this in this arena, but I mean, they've also been like incredibly incompetent since since they lost. I mean, really since they lost the the last election, like Peter Dutton's time has been, you know, like if you if you know, if I was sitting in the Liberal Party, I would just be hoping and praying that the answer is really just that like, all right, we've dropped the ball. our voters, not One Nations voters, our voters have just like left us for a little bit and they're going to come back once we get our act together.

[00:07:36]Um, that's that's another possibility.

[00:07:38]>> So, it's they're taking a break rather than a full separation. They might come back.

[00:07:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. What a break.

[00:07:44]>> On a break.

[00:07:45]>> Yeah. Because my thing that I've sort of been observing over the last couple of weeks is like you started with talking about that with globally this sort of populist rise in in America it's a bit different because they've got the two parties but MAGA which is like the populist right has kind of just through Donald Trump taken over that party basically and in the UK reform which is like the populist right the Nigel Farage um has basically I think they're polling number one but now the Greens I think first poll ever in the last month taken over Labor, but that hasn't >> nuts.

[00:08:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. I thought you said it's not true. I was like, I think Labor is declining, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:08:23]>> Yeah. Labor Labor's in a real bad state in the UK.

[00:08:26]>> Yeah. And so in Australia, Albanesei, our Labour leader, hasn't has had a disastrous run as prime minister, as Kish Dharma seems to have had with a lot of other things, you know, like the Peter Mendes, Epstein stuff, like things that are not just directly related to the economy and all that, >> but I think the Greens and One Nation I'm seeing as kind of they they would never form a coalition. like they couldn't be more apart in many many like core values.

[00:08:50]>> But they're a bit of a mirror image where the Greens are like the inner city, the inner city party that's rebelling kind of against Labor sort of from a populist point of view. Whether you agree that they're actually populist or not, they have that framing.

[00:09:02]>> It's like us versus the billionaires.

[00:09:04]Whereas the One Nation is sort of the populist against the Liberal Party of like they're the elites, the Uni Party in CRA and they've got most of their vote concentrated in the regions.

[00:09:14]because I think that that's the answer to why the votes haven't translated to seats is because they're geographically.

[00:09:19]So there could be 20% but if that 20% in the regions they're going to top out at a certain amount of seats but that exact same thing happens with the greens in reverse from the city.

[00:09:28]>> Yeah.

[00:09:28]>> And I just find that an interesting phenomenon that Albanese has somehow been able to not have the Greens rise. I don't know if it's whether some positive stuff that he's doing for the economy or that the Greens just have a ceiling, but One Nation seems to have been in Australia broke. They've sort of broken through that >> that ceiling that populist parties seem to have.

[00:09:46]>> I mean, Zack Zack Plansky, the Greenser in the UK, um he's like a very very very powerful communicator >> and he's just cutting through. And I think the other thing that um you got to keep in mind when you I suppose when you're comparing the UK and Australia is just is just how brutal the last like 20 years has been in the UK like since the crash.

[00:10:10]>> Like it just feels like um and I lived there for a little bit after the crash.

[00:10:14]>> Yeah. And is that the 2008 crash?

[00:10:16]>> Yeah. since the since the global financial crisis, you know, like austerity um you know, tripling the the the student um you know, loans and uh it just it just seems like it's just been like one thing after another and and you know, like real incomes have been going sort of backwards or being stagnant for a very very long time there. Um and you know, like the NHS is falling to bits.

[00:10:39]No one can see a doctor. Like all of the the local councils are all going bankrupt. They're not picking up bins.

[00:10:45]Like there's just so many compounding factors that are just making like I think you can you can really like >> you know hand on heart say life is worse than it was in the year 2000 in the UK and I just don't think that like Australia has gotten that quite that bad. I think and I think you can say the same about the US, you know, like I feel like like inequality in like >> Australia's got a lot of things going for it that might make a might make um at least a populist revolt against the incumbent Labor government >> Sure.

[00:11:18]>> less likely.

[00:11:18]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:19]>> But also like you know I mean the Greens just haven't got their act together.

[00:11:23]You're you're right. Like where are they? like they maybe they should they should be maybe they should be it should be like 2020 2020 you know like >> four major parties like like why haven't the Greens like you know been able to do to replicate the success of One Nation.

[00:11:37]It's a good it's a good question and it's a and they're probably kicking themselves about it I would imagine.

[00:11:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. You got a little fly there couple of us around. Yeah. Um the other thing we we're sort of just throwing you to the audience. It's we don't have to go fully into your like political philosophy, but I think one thing you and I would at least agree on is like we're both kind of on the social democratic end, would you say, where it's like >> we sort of have faith in government and that the government's role should be to protect people and properly invest in public institutions like Medicare and education, things like that. We might we might not fully agree on all of that, but like that philosophy we agree on cuz the UK example is really interesting where austerity is basically >> the budget's tied or the government's finances are tied so we're going to cut in public investment essentially, right?

[00:12:17]And that's what was it David Cameron that sort of brought that in.

[00:12:20]>> Yeah.

[00:12:21]>> And he was a conservative which is kind of like their liberals.

[00:12:23]>> Yeah. Um the thing that I don't understand and this is a populist reasoning and this is where my One Nation people can comment is like you see that the things that government invests in falling apart and your answer is to go to a party that's going to cut that even more.

[00:12:37]>> That's the part I don't really understand cuz the right-wing side of things is often more towards pro business than pro government, especially the One Nation people. You'll just look at the comment section of any video, they're very distrustful of government.

[00:12:47]I actually went back and forth with a commenter on the Topa Field podcast cuz I I love like throwing my ideas out to those people cuz he was talking about how um like uh he refused to take the vaccine so they didn't let him into the hospital or something and then they cut his Medicare and he couldn't get seen by someone. And I just commented back like so why are you voting for One Nation?

[00:13:07]Because although One Nation claimed to be pretty pro Medicare, a lot of the time their solution is to cut this stuff. And this I'm really worried about the Liberals in Victoria is, you know, going to be tough on crime, like investing in police and um tightening up bail, but that means the crimes are already being committed. Shouldn't we invest in all the public infrastructure and services so people aren't in poverty and desperation that commit the crimes?

[00:13:29]So, I guess the question underlying all that is this populist message. I totally understand that populist feeling like when the Reserve Bank of Australia raises interest rates and the the millionaire the the head of the Reserve Bank Michelle Bullock is on like $1.1 million a year. I can feel that populist energy of like oh this wealthy person is telling me I have to suffer.

[00:13:51]>> But I don't see then the answer is to go and vote for someone that's going to cut this stuff even more cuz that's what reform's kind of planning isn't it? In the UK their solution is kind of more austerity.

[00:14:01]>> Yeah, it's Yeah, it's an interesting one. And I mean, I suppose the the you know, a lot of critiques of like populists is like that they're just they're just going to tell you whatever they think you want to hear.

[00:14:13]>> Yeah.

[00:14:13]>> Um so so maybe reform.

[00:14:16]>> So it's like a raw shark thing.

[00:14:17]>> Yeah. Maybe >> just project your image onto what they >> like don't re maybe they're not reliably consistent on on on where they're going to land on on you know how much money the government should be spending like all of the in fact actually like I read this thing recently. They were saying like, you know, maybe maybe one of the reasons why their polling numbers are kind of taking a little bit of a dip is because they've actually won all these councils. and they want all these councils with these big lofty promises about, you know, the like this is the I think this is the classic like definition of well maybe like a a it's a bit of a put down but as a definition but it it makes a lot of sense to me is populists you know they're sort of saying like the only problem the only problem in the world is that the wrong people are in charge.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> If I was in charge all of the problems would go away. Yeah, the only, you know, the only problem is the the elites, you know, the billionaires are in charge. If we just replace the billionaires or we get rid of the billionaires, everything will be fine. Or or like, you know, if we just replace the, you know, um, you know, the incompetent major parties, you know, like it's just they're incompetent. It's not that, you know, problems are complicated and there's zero sum like trade-offs and running the economy is really difficult and you know like may so you know reform get all these like councils and then they say they're not going to put up council taxes and they say they're going to be able to increase fix all the broken services at the same time >> but they can't. So they get power and then and then people realize oh these guys are just as full of [ __ ] as everybody else.

[00:15:46]>> Yeah.

[00:15:46]>> And then you know they sort of wayne after that I guess.

[00:15:48]>> Yeah. And that's exactly what's happening in the US with Trump, right?

[00:15:51]He promised to lower the cost of living and take care of everything. And now he's literally said to people like last Christmas, the the comment that's burned into my brain was like >> he was telling parents, why do your kids need 30 toys? That can be fine with one.

[00:16:03]>> That's like chairman mau stuff. But like totally scarcity when Trump was all about prosperity and like we can, you know, we want, you know, that's how businesses thrive. Like we will bring back the economy.

[00:16:12]>> Yeah. But this is my thing in Australia and what I I I don't know how to get it through to the the people that are considering one nation is like they will not make it better. They won't make the economy better. This argument about immigration, you get rid of all the immigrants or you reduce significantly reduce immigration or you get rid of the ones that are staying there illegally.

[00:16:29]The economic shocks of that'll be oh we'll have to like we need to find a good way to brand it like the Hansen recession or something. We have to pin that future recession on Pauline Hansen.

[00:16:38]>> Yeah. Because we've we've actually got examples with like Trump what's happening now like he's losing so much support from people that even voted for him because he doesn't fix it. Nigel F as you're saying like it's now happening in the UK it sounds like where they're getting seats and not fixing the problem either.

[00:16:53]>> How do we get people in Australia to see that that's not the answer before we go down that path because the appeal is so strong obviously. Is there something that One Nation is saying or doing that's appealing to a wide number of people that they're going, "Yeah, they're fighting for me." Whereas Elbow is not.

[00:17:10]>> Yeah. So, I guess I mean I'd probably I'd probably agree with you on the last point. When they hit like 30% of the vote or 35% of the vote, like once they're like a fully majoritarian, I think they might have >> hit their ceiling.

[00:17:24]>> Yeah, that's true. So they might might you know you talk about how Trump might be doing that our work for us because you know if >> a live example of it yeah >> where Australia might be on the verge of giving their orange person a crack and then we look at what the other orange person's doing and he's I mean he's really like a singular force of economic vandalism like the fact that there is we're literally like on the brink of a stagflationary recession because of one dude Yeah.

[00:17:55]>> Like there was no, you know what I mean?

[00:17:57]There was no like >> Yeah. I mean, one dude, but also the 77 million that voted for it that saw that message and and chose to vote him over Carmela. That's that's the other thing.

[00:18:05]Like, >> we can pin it all on Trump, but that's my thing is there's a bubbling rise of frustration and resentment.

[00:18:11]>> And this is the thing is like, is it just that lefties like us are so annoying that they prefer to vote against their own interests to teach us a lesson?

[00:18:18]>> Yes.

[00:18:19]>> Yes. You know, cuz that's the thing is that the c that's the cultural side is that >> some of them hate over in the US are primed to hate Democrats so much that even piercing and the blue hair like >> Yeah. Like usually >> Yeah. Um >> people with families that are just trying to live our lives >> as as like a as a theoretical framework for understanding this sort of thing. I mean it's very social media. It's very like you know but >> it could be that simple. You know what I mean? Like it could be that simple that they've just sort of been like whipped into this like frenzy of like ridicule and you know like oh I hate people in the cities and I hate people who you know talk this way or or they're so you know they're so dumb with their like you know like 17 genders and stuff and like you know maybe that's just like a really powerful kind of like way to you know agitate people and get them get them you know politically uh fired up. Um, you know, it's Yeah. Yeah. Spite. I mean, it's it's sad, I suppose, but you know, like and and that really like all of those other, you know, maybe like a bit more like sophisticated theories like, oh, well, it's the economy or it's this or, you know, or it's or it's uh they all sort of fall apart if you if it's just they just want to own the libs.

[00:19:36]Like that's the that's the whole like >> you know reason for being like you know like like Ethan was telling me I didn't watch Po Hansen's cartoon cuz I didn't feel like >> there's a lot of there's a lot of them >> Ethan was telling me about like how they're going to like just like lock all of the lefties in N and you know and then Australia's going to be so great when they don't have to deal with all of these annoying lefties anymore >> you know uh I don't know I don't know what my responsibility is in this situation. I don't know.

[00:20:04]>> I do think it's it's hard sometimes to reckon with like cuz I've said this and the One Nation people even agreed in the comments is like there are a portion of them that are just racist and that's they just don't like brown people and that's why they're going to vote for One Nation.

[00:20:17]>> Sure.

[00:20:18]>> But there's definitely and I think this is what you and Ethan covered in the Australian Prosperity Institutees podcast g which you should listen to now. uh is that it's it's more complicated because there's the cultural angle and we can be very I know I can be very idolistic of people and in the job that I do you know like believing people can make changes I always see humanity overall as good and people are tended towards that >> but there is that thing of like there is a lot of resentment and frustration and or fear and people I think the right-wing populists are really good this is when I say like Pauline Hansen's good at marketing she might not be good to us like we might see a message and cringe at it but for the people she's trying going to aim it at. It's really good marketing because it takes that the fear it takes the fear, confusion and anger.

[00:21:01]Gives it a simple solution to the immigrants and then targets that anger cuz that's like you know that's even from like Plato in democracies originally is like whoever can control the anger of a population and then Trump did is the greatest example too. If you can like sort of get that anger from a population and channel it into something to the common enemy, >> that's sort of how you win. And I don't know how we do that in reverse because clearly in Australia the Greens are not really the even though I did believe for quite some time they were the answer to that. What that's why I was a supporter.

[00:21:30]>> I don't know how we sort of count like what does counter that even mean? Cuz I don't really like the idea of ridiculing fellow Australians. We can ridicule Pauline Hansen, but I do think a lot of her voters have genuinely good um grievances, especially on the economic issues.

[00:21:45]>> They feel like they've been neglected for some time.

[00:21:47]>> And how do we speak to that if a person like that is also racist or they're a bit confused by the messaging and they've, >> you know, it's a really unempathetic, cruel position of like we should kick people out, but what's underlying it maybe actually has some validity. That's that's sort of where I'm struggling with it at the moment.

[00:22:04]>> And how do we work with this rise >> because we can't ignore it. I think that's the thing. I think if we ignore it, that's that's how you end up with like a 2016 US where the Democrats just tried to make it out as a joke >> and look where we are now.

[00:22:18]>> Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And then and then you know maybe it's a bit of a tragedy that Australia is sort of going through our little populist rightwing populist wave but then maybe it's actually a wakeup call you know like um uh there's I mean the big critique of the current Albanese government is that they're like too incremental and they they haven't they haven't like grabbed grabbed the reform you know all by the horns and >> um uh you know maybe um it's a tricky one cuz you know if if the problem is like if if if the problems are fully like discursive for One Nation. You know, it's really just about the way that communication is like kind of creating these like straw men sort of boogeymen people to hate and and it's not a policy problem. Then sensible government's not going to fix it, you know? It's like sensible government that delivers for people is not going to fix the problem.

[00:23:09]>> I mean, the government should do that anyway, right?

[00:23:11]>> Yeah. But >> yeah, but they won't get the credit. And I think what Ethan and I talked about in in our other episode was that good governance is kind of boring.

[00:23:19]>> It's very complicated, so it's hard to explain in a >> slogan. Yeah.

[00:23:23]>> Um and also people just expect the basic like the One Nation people that I go back and forth with online are upset about not getting services. And that's a part that I just it's like wouldn't you then want to go for the party that's going to invest in the services rather than one that's telling you they're going to cut them?

[00:23:39]>> You know, with austerity that's what right-wing governments do, especially the centeright ones. They call that economic responsibility. And this is where the the reality of what economics actually is doing means a lot of people are going to go be unemployed or if inflation, we're going to have to raise interest rates, which means >> mortgage holders are going to have to suffer.

[00:23:58]>> But it's like the people that are frustrated with the government not delivering want to tear down government even more.

[00:24:04]>> That's the part it's like, you know, most people agree like One Nation is kind of a burn it all down sort of party.

[00:24:09]>> Yeah.

[00:24:10]>> Like we want to throw a grenade into CRA. It's like, yeah, but then I don't know if that's going to help you get the medical care you need.

[00:24:18]>> True. Or like I'm not even sure if that's really what they're upset about it. Or maybe they're just looking for a reason why they're upset. And then and then they're like casting a net and saying, "Oh, it's housing, you know, or oh, it's uh Medicare is not good enough.

[00:24:30]Oh, my doctor didn't do this." You know, >> is Yeah. I I sometimes wonder is that the the approach it's it's always difficult to know exactly what Labour's position is behind the scenes but like example is they haven't run candidates in these sort of in the Nepan and then the Farah election um and I think the calculation they make is it's just not worth spending the money cuz they're not going to win tradition.

[00:24:54]Okay, we've got a labor fact checker here. No, no, no. Labor doesn't >> Is that God or is that labor?

[00:25:06]>> Yeah.

[00:25:08]>> Yeah. So, the message So, I agree that's fine. But the thing is then it's like this if the message from One Nation people is it's a uni party in Camera.

[00:25:16]They don't care about us. If you live in that electorate and you don't have a Labor person there, whether you're gonna vote for them or not, I can still I can I guess what I'm getting at is it's not whether I agree with it or not, but I can understand why people in the country think Labor don't represent them or don't like why they think Elbow doesn't care about them and he's just a, you know, severe elite even though he was in public housing and struggled himself, you know.

[00:25:38]>> Yeah.

[00:25:38]>> His personal story is quite of an Aussie battler, but they don't see that and they they just think he doesn't care about him.

[00:25:44]>> Yeah. I mean there might be just this sort of like demographic kind of you know overarching thing happening here where it's like you know people people who live in in the regions tend to be a bit older and they tend to be a bit you know they're just sort of 10 conservative. So like if there's like a you know this idea that like >> like like maybe people don't really get ever get convinced to change their mind.

[00:26:06]Maybe maybe the demographics of of areas just change >> you know like so I don't know that might sound a bit like fatalist or a bit like >> Yeah. Well, that's what the gerrymandering in the US is. Like they'll divide they'll divide up the electorates based on literal streets and things cuz they'll know that like there's a lot of black people that live there, so that's Democrat. So, we'll cut that out. And it is a little bit fatalistic. It's like, oh, what what's the point in campaigning and all that if we know where literally where who the people what they're going to vote for where they live?

[00:26:33]>> Yeah.

[00:26:33]>> And we know that Yeah. like geography does determine political ideology or like you know that rural people in the rural areas are tended towards being more right-wing and conservative. M >> yeah, but I guess is that what I Labour would say then whether it's bi-elections or not is like it's just not a good return on investment to run candidates out in the regional areas.

[00:26:52]>> Yeah, I got >> let the rightwing fight it out like we'll just give up on them >> and we'll just let them fight it out.

[00:26:58]God's coming back, is he?

[00:27:00]>> You should have just come on the show.

[00:27:04]>> Okay.

[00:27:04]>> Yeah.

[00:27:05]>> But but so so God, my question, my response is when it comes time for the election.

[00:27:11]Well, that's what I'm asking. I'm saying it with a question mark. It's God with a question mark. I'm hearing voices. Um, but then when it comes time for the election, I think the regional people do feel that Labour doesn't care about I think that's this is what I'm hearing from them is like Albo does not represent us. And so Labor, the Labour just in return go, "All right, well, like they're never going to necessarily like cut their funding or things like that, but they're just going to shift their priorities to who their voters they see their voters to be." Cuz like out of suburbs is an example that like this the area that I'm living in is tipped to be a one nation possibility >> next Victorian election, but currently there's a there's a Labour member representing it. So just by the numbers it means there's going to be labor people moving to one nation.

[00:28:00]>> Yeah, I believe that.

[00:28:00]>> And I think the underlying psychology is that they think labor doesn't represent them anymore.

[00:28:05]>> It might just be I mean >> Victoria's uh it Victoria this this Victorian election is going to be very very interesting. Um I'm hoping that the Liberal government gets reelected. Um but obviously like there's an its time factor which is the the the Australian >> thing of I don't know like maybe let's give Hey.

[00:28:25]>> Yeah, maybe maybe let's give someone else a crack.

[00:28:28]>> We should announce, too. This is going to this is almost like a two-part in itself this episode and we're going to do we're going to move over to G and talk about that cuz Oh, true.

[00:28:34]>> The Victorian election is an interesting one where it's exactly what you're talking about of like economics and good governance and all of that is the Victorian Labor government has delivered a lot. I'm I'm doing my three the three-hour video. I think it'll come out after this video gets posted, but like >> the the amount of things that the Labor government especially on like infrastructure and health and education investment.

[00:28:53]>> Yeah. But Victorians, a lot of Victorians are not feeling it or they're they're not going to give Labour their vote despite Labour having delivered all of that.

[00:29:00]>> We've been through a tough few years, right? Like >> I've heard that. Yeah. you know, like COVID lockdowns, like you know, inflation and then another lot of inflation when we thought inflation was gone away and then the petrol price shock and the interest rates and the, you know, and then the crime and then the, you know, like it's it's tough like it's a tough environment for an incumbent government because it's like, you know, I mean, the the Victorian state government is was had control of some of those things, but definitely not all of them. And and and and you're right, like they've done they've done a lot of amazing things.

[00:29:37]Like they've built a lot of infrastructure that that has kind of has problems in itself from like a campaigning perspective though because like you're like well look at all these things done.

[00:29:45]>> It's like well okay well what's next?

[00:29:47]It's like oh we got to pay down government debt because of all the things that we spent money on.

[00:29:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then that's like a I don't know like an unenviable sort of position to be from.

[00:29:55]>> And that's the pendulum, right? It always swings back. And that's I'm starting to think, do we just have to sort of not let the right wing get in, but do we just have to accept that the pendulum will swing back? Let them kind of mismanage it so we can then go we told you so and then go back to >> I would prefer not to cuz that's what that's literally what's happening in the US now is like every election they've had the Democrats are winning by like 20 points in areas that they even lost.

[00:30:18]>> No. So it's almost like the best I think you just said it before too which is actually really true.

[00:30:22]>> Sometimes the best thing you can do to counter the rightwing positions is just to let them govern for a while.

[00:30:26]>> Let them govern for a bit.

[00:30:26]>> But the part where I don't think that's funny though is I see real people struggle like robo debt as the example.

[00:30:32]Yeah.

[00:30:37]Part of why I don't find that acceptable and why I'm trying to communicate with people to not vote for those parties now or to like reconsider the outcomes is real Aussies are going to get affected if we let the right wings like things might be tough now that they're going to get so much worse if we go into an austerity >> if we go into austerity with high inflation and all that. That's just that's going to be so much worse, isn't it?

[00:30:59]>> Yeah, totally.

[00:31:03]This is going off the rails. I love it.

[00:31:04]>> Sorry. Apologize.

[00:31:05]>> You should have just flown the camera on. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 2014 or so. Yeah.

[00:31:23]>> Yeah.

[00:31:27]Well, how do we That's I guess that's the >> Yeah.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah.

[00:31:32]>> But then how much how much of like like not to like put put down the average voter, but like how many people are walking into a booth in the Victorian election that really know that much about Victorian politics? Like Victorian politics is unless you like unless you like >> you know seek seek someone like you out on YouTube or whatever, >> it's paywalled. Like there's I mean the Herald Son of the Age cover Victorian politics and both of them are paywalled and only only die hard like you know like apparatics and like you know politics nerds are really going to stump the money to pay the age for a subscription >> or you listen to it on hot FM or whatever.

[00:32:10]>> Do you turning into a good episode? I'm like going to just watch my own podcast.

[00:32:14]>> But like or or it just becomes the only way that that people are consuming the Victorian uh you know the Victorian election dramas is through the car on the radio.

[00:32:23]>> Yeah.

[00:32:24]>> Or their social media.

[00:32:24]>> It's often rightwing.

[00:32:26]>> Yeah.

[00:32:26]>> Super rightwing. And I I mean I don't listen to radio in the car. I got a I got a little auxiliary cord. I listen >> I'll just highlight too. This is we're joking. This is Ethan from Australian Prosperity Institute that's sitting here too.

[00:32:36]>> Yeah. I'm off in the corner chair.

[00:32:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's kind of the friendly Jordy's argument about like when we saw the comedy, we saw his show about that like the average voter. You think of how dumb the average voter is and half of them are dumber than that.

[00:32:49]>> It's a bit rough.

[00:32:50]>> Yeah. See, I don't agree. That's the thing too is like I wouldn't see it as dumb as opposed to people just have busy lives and they're very stressed. Yeah.

[00:32:56]>> And they just don't have the time or Yeah. As you said, like the sources of the information Yeah. are hard to find.

[00:33:02]>> And my thing is though, they because of compulsive voting, they have to vote anyway. So is this literally just we need to get better at those pamphlets when people walk into the booth cuz if for a great deal of population it's it's even higher than 50% I think when somebody will report on that Australian election study make their mind up during the campaign if not >> on the day.

[00:33:22]>> Yeah. In the room.

[00:33:23]>> Yeah. So that can that's why I think independence can have uh some swing because you can if there's that many voters up for grabs if you have good infrastructure behind you can take out the big parties like as we saw with the teals and things like that. You have to have a lot behind it and you have to have a good message that people will resonate with. But yeah, it just seems like that good governance doesn't really cuz I would say my assessment of the Labour Party is I don't think they're amazing in Victoria, but they they're good enough. Like I would see that >> they're cool things, dude.

[00:33:52]>> That's I think they've done good enough to deserve another.

[00:33:54]>> You like trains?

[00:33:55]>> I like trains. Do you see those train stations? They're sick.

[00:33:58]>> Actually, you know what? I work right next to one of them, but I haven't been to it yet. So, >> but I know that it's good. So, but is the point that like it's kind of like >> builds a lot of schools too. They've built a hell of a lot of schools and also I mean this is something like that, you know, really animates me, but it's very divisive in the community. Um, zoning reform, uh, housing construction.

[00:34:19]I'm very very excited about the fact that the state government is like making some enemies in some leafy inner suburbs and saying, "No, you're getting you're getting medium density."

[00:34:30]>> Is that around the train stations?

[00:34:32]>> Yeah. And um and I've been doing a little bit of phone banking for a candidate and um everybody hates it. So I don't know like everyone I talk to is like there's way too much development.

[00:34:44]There's too many people moving in here.

[00:34:45]And so this is like one of those things where it's like I think it's good governance. Maybe it's cuz of my my generation. You I'm a millennial and I'm like my my I think my generation is big like bug bearers. The fact that we've missed out on this like you know like my folks were in their own home by the time they were my age and they just look like adults and I'm just this like perpetual sort of teenager who like is just like, you know, all my mates are flitting from like share house to share house and like they're probably going to be doing that until they're freaking 60 or whatever.

[00:35:12]And you know, um yeah, you know, like I see a state government that's like actually doing something about it like seriously like and being successful like you know like um you know rents have stopped going up, house prices are actually cooling off a little bit. Um you know this is just going to keep sort of getting better and better from my perspective but other people hate it. So you know sometimes sometimes sometimes like you know the solutions to one person's problem is the creation of another person's problem and this is where like that you know like >> the slogan the sloganering of the of the campaigning wing of politics is like doesn't really deal with that very well.

[00:35:49]>> Yeah that's right. Um, yeah.

[00:35:51]>> And I and I wonder is that one of the main causes of where Labour it's it's not like they're losing right now, but it's very like 50/50. Like the thing the discrepancy >> tipping them. So, >> well, yeah, the discrepancy is like that so many of the other premieres are so popular and the government's so popular versus in Victoria it's very >> obviously there's the Daniel Andrews of it all and there's that like contingency of people that will never vote Labor.

[00:36:12]But I guess they're still not sort of escaping the elitist populist vibe down here like that that is rising still in Victoria. It seems like >> I wonder if it's like a framing thing from the media like you know like imagine like I'm running a poll and then I ask you know each of you a question >> and the first one is like how would you rate unpopular premier just Allen on a scale of 1 to 10 and then the other person I say how would you rate premier just Allen on a scale of 1 to 10. Like if I just prime you to you know what I mean? Like I don't know. May maybe you're right. Maybe I'm like under under estimating the sophistication of the average voter and maybe that's a problem. But I I do kind of think like there's a bit of a I mean it's just that some of it is it's a bit of like an unfair pile and maybe I don't know.

[00:36:59]>> Yeah. Look, I think there's definitely people get fatigued. But the thing is you look at like Jess Wilson who's the opposition leader in the Liberals who has the videos. I just I'm obsessed with the LinkedIn videos where she's like mowing the lawn.

[00:37:10]>> I just Well, why couldn't just end Allen like post that's cute. We just built like you know we were busy building a tunnel, >> you know, like that cost like billions of dollars that now like connected >> Yeah. Yeah. You mowed one lawn which is actually a local government's responsibility and we actually connected the east and the west of Victoria together.

[00:37:26]>> Yeah.

[00:37:27]>> You know what I mean? It's like the the Labour's like social media game could be stepped up. That's a whole other thing.

[00:37:32]the story the story I mean I think the biggest story in the polling in Victoria is the fact that the Liberals have like their primary has dropped >> hugely immensely but it's just not a story like no one's talking about I mean >> that's the rise it's been that's been brought up by One Nation which is >> imagine if one Nation like steal steal this victory from the Liberal party you know what I mean like >> well I wouldn't be unhappy with that but I think then then >> that's this the Australia that we're going to shift to and this is like the whole thing we're talking about is >> Labor versus one nation is a very different country or very different political environment >> to Labor versus the Liberals.

[00:38:05]>> Did you see Peter Melanoscus' acceptance speech?

[00:38:08]>> I I listened to the That was a poem that he read, was it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm a fan of Peter. Like I was surprised cuz he struck me again as like I'm not, you know, I'm not anti- labor, but like >> I wasn't really cuz not being in South Australia, I wasn't really aware of all the stuff that he's done. Sure. But he seems to be an example of a pretty >> he's like a centrist, you know, like and he says he's a proud centrist. And he said the reason why they're popular is because they're a centrist government, but >> the moral clarity with which he speaks about immigration just like makes me emotional >> like and then you know you were saying you were talking at the start of this episode about the economic shock that that that a drastic cut of to immigration would cause to Australia.

[00:38:46]>> I agree with that, but I also it's not I mean it's not the reason why I care about it. It's like I like I like immigration. I like having immigrants living in Australia. I'm proud to say that.

[00:38:57]>> I I'm not ashamed of it. Um I >> you know like that's that's a cool view I guess.

[00:39:03]>> I think the thing that the reality that most people are bound by though is that we can't take every single immigrant, right? Or are you an open borders person like that Australia should just take everyone that comes?

[00:39:14]I mean I suppose like you know in a technical sense like states need to have borders.

[00:39:24]Um and obviously like you know if you're saying should Australia have 100 million people move here every year? Probably not. Is the current number probably okay? Yes. that candidate from for one nation seems to think that the current numbers he applied to be a labor member or something that's >> everybody reckons he's just going to like get the seat and then quit and then be an independent.

[00:39:47]>> That's hilarious.

[00:39:48]>> And you know all power to him and like you know if he's you know if he's if he's a good member then that's great. Um >> um you know it's just like it's just a it's just a beat up over you know it's like what what Australia do I live in? like, okay, I live in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, so you know, like I'm just as likely to go out and get like, you know, like a Lebanese pie or, you know, multicultural area >> or like, you know, and my my son goes to school with like just, you know, like like where I went to school, it was very culturally homogeneous and very boring.

[00:40:26]And like Sid's mates are just from all, you know, they're folks from all different parts of the the world. I'm like, I love it. It's It's great. I'm like, you know, and I know like politically I just found like Malinoscus' speech like the fact that, you know, like he he didn't feel like he had to like skirt around it. He just addressed it head on. He could have talked about anything, you know. He could have talked about like oh we're going to fix ramping or we're going to build roads or fix education or whatever but he was like he just you know put it like stared down the camera and said one nation of I'm coming for you and I'm coming and I'm I'm coming for you because you're you're immoral you know like it was cool. It was I I found it really cool and it was brave. It was a big it was a big brave move.

[00:41:08]>> The thing that I saw in one of his I think it was with the ABC that he spoke to the One Nation voters to and he just said you know be careful who you're voting for or really consider it. He's like, you know, if you want to vote for one nation, I'm not, you know, I can't control you, but just really think about the outcomes of what you're you're doing.

[00:41:24]>> That's a great way to say it.

[00:41:25]>> That's my point, too. He's like, yeah, I think >> just giving them the agency, not making fun of them, >> not not talking down to them, just, you know, like being straight straight. He's just very straight up with people. I think that's why he like comes across so well.

[00:41:38]>> What do you think about the sol one of my proposed solutions? And like it's kind of my unsolicited advice to labor, but I think we could all do it is like I think a big part of it is that you know it is a bit of the country city divide and that one way to you know just from psychology like when people interact more they're more tendency it's called the mere uh mere exposure hypothesis your tendency is to like people more the more they're around may not like become best friends but a lot of it is if it's like a small community town they're very there's like that tribalism of us versus them becomes like outsiders.

[00:42:10]So, I'm not suggesting like we all like just mix up everywhere, but I think part of this is like what I'm trying to do with this channel is we need to at least talk more.

[00:42:18]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:42:18]>> Like One Nation people, we not maybe exactly equal, but I'm trying to be as inviting to One Nation voters or supporters to my channel as I am to the lefty friends and the Labor people which have a complicated relationship with me because they want me to be Labor, but I won't be. But do you think do you agree with that too that like I I think with Labor whether it's costly or not I still I don't agree the voice of of Ethan's probably going to chime in but I think they should still run a candidate in the bi-election. I think that's bad politics to not >> um I think the come but you know >> but that's I think that's the thing though is like over time who knows yeah to show like people want some I think what a lot of people the populists want I think what resonates and this is where I'm a little populist maybe on the lefty side is like someone like as Zachansky says I'm going to fight for you >> we may not like Mdani we may not agree on every single point but if you elect me you can be comfortable knowing that you're going to fight for me that's the kind of politician that I look for and I think that's where I who I do agree with the One Nation people is like I think they fully believe Pauline's going to fight for them whether she will or not is a whole other thing cuz she's got Gina Reinhardt's $2 million plane and um a lot of like contradictory policies so who knows what she's act and we see her in in she's in government and she barely votes like her voting record's 53%. So I don't believe that Pauline will will fight but I think that populist message is people respond to that person who says I'm going to fight for you.

[00:43:42]>> Yeah.

[00:43:42]>> And I think we need to talk more amongst ourselves.

[00:43:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we just we definitely need to as as people who believe in like a social democratic, you know, direction of government, we definitely need to talk to >> talk more and talk to more people and be persuasive. And I think like this whole like this whole thing of you know in the 2010s of this obsession with like platforming and you know like not having to you know shoulder the burden of like persuading people of of things because >> you know like that's problematic or whatever. I think it's it it kind of didn't really serve the the um you know I mean the interests of people around the world really like you know like some some examples that spring to mind are like you know everybody like jumped on Bernie Sanders when he went on Joe Rogan and and that's happened fairly recently as well with like I think um Pete Buddha Judge going on like um >> and you mean jump on like criticizing them for doing I don't understand that at all. It should be going on there.

[00:44:40]>> It's like I mean it's like how how dare you talk to this guy who's like antiax or whatever. Um, and it's like who like do you actually like not want people to vote for you? Like are you saying that like you only want like you don't want to build a bigger coalition because they're not welcome? Like cuz basically like if you're if you're like going out and telling voters that they're not welcome at your barbecue, they're going to go to the like argument.

[00:45:03]>> They're going to go to the party down the road and and give them a chance.

[00:45:06]>> And if the crazy like if the crazy cookers are like, "Yeah, come in. We got we got beers." And you know, then people are going to hang out and then they're going to be like, "Hey, you know what?

[00:45:13]Maybe maybe vaccines do cause autism. I don't know. Like and you like >> Yeah. Well Yeah. Well, yeah. You get exposed to those ideas and then you start to reconsider your own.

[00:45:22]>> Yeah. And also like I mean like I've been saying this forever and like this is maybe like controversial amongst like some groups of people but like I I do think like leftwing people tend to like adopt a kind of an exclusive sort of language which like you know it's very university and it's very like there's a lot of the big big you know dense pointy terms that a lot of like workingass people just kind of just you know it it it's just not a good way of communicating with people and and you know it's kind of exclusionary and it And and sort of like it if the One Nation if the One Nation people are just like upset with, you know, because of the Septum ring blue hair thing >> like we were saying before.

[00:46:02]>> Yeah. Lefties. Yeah.

[00:46:04]>> Um you know, maybe I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there's like a grain of truth in that. Like maybe there's maybe there's like a you know >> there's extremes on both sides. And I think that's what you what the Australian Prosperity Institute or the >> Progressive Patriotism, which I know Elbow and Peter Malamascus have both used is like taking back a lot of the Australian symbolism and not even taking it back from the right to the left. Just taking it back as in >> we're all Austral like I don't I've said this in like many times is like >> just because someone has a different idea to me, I don't think they're any less Australian. Like for me it's like if you're an Australian citizen, >> you're an Aussie. Now we all have different cultures and backgrounds. You can be like Greek Australian. It can be like for me my my dad's from New Zealand. So my I'm I'm Australian citizen. I was born here. My mother was born here. My dad was born in another country, but I'm still Aussie. I'm still a citizen. So I think that >> that's when a lot of people I think feel like we're not the country of the '90s or even before that. You know, the castle, the 1997, like the classic Aussie movie.

[00:46:58]>> I think it's people want to return to Australia like that.

[00:47:01]>> But we are still we can still be like that. I think that's what we're losing because of the way the social media set up to turn us against each other left and right. I think and I think it's much more on the right to be honest. I do think lefties probably do it too, but to equate someone with different ideas to you as being less Australian or less that it's just like no, we >> we're like progressive patriotism. We're all Aussies. We're trying to solve these problems.

[00:47:23]>> Let's like try and move forward together.

[00:47:25]>> I got a question for you because your your channel's quite a lot further along than ours. like we've just started and you you probably spent a lot more time like looking at like analytics and and information about like you know what >> do you find like >> if you like >> you if you put a a bit more of a like >> incendiary thumbnail or >> or like a more like rage baity title that you get a little bit more >> I've I've made a commitment to myself to not go for clickbait. I did it once and some of my commenters were like Nathan don't do that. They literally said that's disappoint the one that really cut to me was the per I'll I'll admit it. They were like Nathan that's it's not like I'm not upset I'm disappointed and it was an older person and I was like I reflected on I was like yeah like part of my whole thing is like to try and elevate the discourse a little bit to bring both sides in whatever that me you know to bring >> I want anyone across the spectrum to be able to watch my videos. So I intentionally don't do that anymore.

[00:48:19]Exactly what you're saying. If you make it a bit more controversial, like I did an AB test with one of the Greens videos and one of it was like, can the Greens get to 15%. So, it's kind of like a neutral like let's look at this and another one was it was the same video but a different title and thumbnail was why do the Greens exist? So, a bit more like antagonistic and that one got more engagement because obviously a One Nation person might be like, "Yeah, why do they exist?" Like person be like, "Oh, yeah." So if you go on one if you go clearly antagonistic on one side you will actually bring more people in.

[00:48:50]>> But the tradeoff is then that yeah it looks a little tacky. I guess that one I I did it for the reason of I wouldn't call that clickbait because clickbait the idea of original idea of clickbait was like whatever's in that is not actually in the video. So you're like being baited into something that's not real. I don't feel like I do that. Like everything I talk about you know my videos are phrased around a question and the video is literally answering that question. Yeah, >> maybe a full solution, but at least we're addressing the question, >> but yeah, more antagonistic gets more views. Yeah. Do you think I'm sort of tying back to our like earlier conversation like do you think that this there might be like a >> like a bit more of a I guess like a like a systemic answer of how politics is changing in what you just said, you know, cuz like >> you just said, you know, we've got this media we've got this media system now where where people get the news from sources like you more than they get their news from sources like, you know, the ABC and the the you know, the TV or the newspaper. or whatever. And you're saying like you've got this like you've got this like really clear test, you know, you've done this experiment >> where you frame something as like why the hell should the greens exist and and but it's gotten more traction and it's like if that happens like through like millions of interactions >> over and over and over again and compounds >> then >> you know like 5 years later you get Brexit after the after the iPhone.

[00:50:16]>> Yeah. and YouTube and then and then 10 years after that, you know, you got co and and then 5 years after that you got a war in Iran and >> yeah, >> I mean it's it's a it's a theory. It's a it's a feedback. It's a No, you're right. It's a feedback loop of And well, why I think I'm trying to break that a little bit is like you'll get the incentive to do that because you'll get more views. And for people that are monetized, which I'm actually monetized now, but not earning much, but like if you're monetized and that's your job, you know, you're incent and your your motivation is money. You're incentivized to then go, okay, I'll double down on that. And then your audience doubles down on that by being more like feeding that beast. And this is what you know Plato talked about back in the ancient Greek stuff is like the um um the sophist they call it you know who can like he was basically talking about Trump who can rile up the crowd and if you can control the anger of a population you can you can direct anything and that's why humans negativity bias YouTube videos that have that doom and gloom thumbnails especially with don't let's get started on AI thumbnails but like if you go down that road you can I I could I put it like this I could be much bigger on YouTube like I I could have more subscribers and views and probably money if I went down that route.

[00:51:24]>> But I like to think that I have some level of integrity where I don't think all my videos are like factually accurate. Like I had to pull down my UK one cuz I mixed up >> Andrew Gwyn and Andy Burnham.

[00:51:34]>> Like like I lit I just made a factual mistake and I got taught and somehow it caught the algorithm in the UK and I woke up in the morning with thousands of views but people were roasting me like he doesn't know anything about UK politics. What's he talking about? So I actually took the video down and re-uploaded it with an edit. I actually edited the video to make it more accurate >> to fix the error and then it only got like 300 views. So I like kneecapped myself like that was taken off. Like I could have just let it run and maybe got in the thousands of views. I look back and go maybe I should have because it wasn't actually that bad. It was just one critical mistake and it was getting an overall it wasn't getting that many.

[00:52:06]>> Like the other metrics are like watch time, like to dislike ratio. It was actually doing pretty well on all of that. But for me, the integrity part was like there was a critical mistake that I could have easily like not made. M >> so my choice here is to like let it run and just do the incentives or to actually be more accurate to the truth and re-upload it with the >> you've basically said that it's like more economically rational to uh >> back to economics >> to to like you have an e you have an economic incentive potentially that's directly tied to your like you know standard of living that's telling you to either like make make titles that are like incendiary or publish falsehoods, you know, like that's pretty wild, dude.

[00:52:51]Like that's that's like as a as a theory for like, you know, why we're polarized and why populism is is rising. I mean, >> yeah, look at all the right-wing commentators in the US and how factor inaccurate so much of what they say is, >> even here in Australia.

[00:53:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I guess like for me, just the only thing I can answer is for myself is that's why I have my day job and I probably will never quit that.

[00:53:14]Even if this thing took off and I was making a living from it, I'd probably never fully I also love what I do. So I probably never like I never did this for the money.

[00:53:22]>> It's not really making like I've only been monetized like two weeks and I've barely made like it's like a$150.

[00:53:27]>> Yeah.

[00:53:27]>> And that's estimated. So like your actual revenue comes in late. The the YouTube revenue system is very convoluted. So I'm never going to like rely on that. But you're 100% right.

[00:53:36]People that rely on it, the incentive is is for I wouldn't I wouldn't actually say like um they're incentivized to inaccuracy. They're incentivized to that outrage. And I think the inaccuracy is actually just irrelevant >> cuz there's no metric on YouTube as like was your video accurate or not just whether people engage with it. You got a you got a spike because you made a a factual like you know like a whatever like it was a slip of the tongue almost like it was >> like but the reason why it spiked in popularity this is interesting to me because the reason why it spikes in popularity is because people got upset about it.

[00:54:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well that's that's you know what they say is like if you want to get a comment on the internet say something incorrect cuz people will feel the need to correct you so they can feel smart >> and then and then that will increase your engagement. That's why you see those if you ever Facebook's a bit of a graveyard now, but you know there's like the boomer memes and it's like find the word in the word search and like there's not actually a word that exists. It's like it's engagement bait. Yeah. It gets people to comment.

[00:54:30]>> Is that is that you that's like, you know, got all these like fake accounts that's just writing your with the asterisk like the different >> Yeah, I have I have a bot. Yeah, I have a bot farm in um Oh, yeah.

[00:54:39]>> I was going to say a country, but I was like, no, maybe I won't say what country my bot farm is from.

[00:54:43]>> I think we I think we might have just figured it out actually. Like >> Yeah. Well, we have to just be outrageous.

[00:54:49]>> No, I mean like I think we figured out why where why Paul Hansen is doing well on the polls.

[00:54:53]>> Well, that's what that's why she has those out videos and the burka stunts and stuff cuz that's a Taylor's oldest time is like attention all publicity is good publicity. Totally.

[00:55:01]>> Is that a Trump quote?

[00:55:02]>> I don't know.

[00:55:03]>> I know he I know he lives by that. But whoever said that quote is 100% accurate. Yeah.

[00:55:07]>> I think to a certain level it's also I think this is the at the end of the day is like who do you what I what I've really reflected on the year of doing YouTube is like who do you want your audience to be?

[00:55:16]>> Yeah. And what I realiz policy analysis, my sort of clickthrough rate is pretty low, meaning don't watch it or if they stay, they don't stay for very long. So, I've got a very niche crowd. But I've decided I would prefer that. I I I like my politics nerds who are going to engage with me on that as opposed to selling out and going I could do the rage bait content or shorter form content or a different kind and get a different kind of audience that's bigger, >> but I'm happier with a smaller. I'm kind of like the nerdy kids at the back of the class who are a bit skeptical of the teacher, but they still like to learn.

[00:55:49]>> Yeah.

[00:55:50]>> Yeah. The the academic rebels or whatever you want to call it. That's a really corny term, but you know, like people that are engaged in politics um but also like the long form content.

[00:56:00]>> Yeah. I mean, it's challenge their beliefs. That's kind that's kind of a cool like you know a lot of people talk about how like how awful the the media system has has become and how awful like meta is and you know but like one one really really cool thing I think is like all of these independent people making basically like you know um documentaries I mean >> like there's some and there's some really interesting people like um you know obviously the podcasting thing like there's there's a lot of room for like nuance and a lot of room for like you know brushing out really big ideas and it's kind of funny how you know, media sort of either either gone like 15 second brain rot or like 3hour like, you know, video on dialectics of like, you know, the real housewives. I don't that's a weird example, but >> yeah.

[00:56:44]>> Yeah.

[00:56:45]>> It's kind of cool. And that's why and bring it back to GE and the Australian Prosperity Institute. you and Ethan, what you guys do is that um I think it's like the Bridge by Words that Ethan does and the the GE podcast that you guys do is similar to what I that's why I resonated with it and why I want to work with you guys more is because >> um I don't think our goal my goal is certainly not when we talk about One Nation. I don't think we're necessarily going to win that those people over like I have no illusion that we're going to change any of their minds, but I think if they're watching our videos and hearing what we have to say and then they can go, "Oh, okay." Like I've had people literally say, >> you know, I basically agree with nothing that you say, but I like watching your videos cuz it gives me a different perspective.

[00:57:24]>> That's cool.

[00:57:25]>> And that's what I think with you as well. Even though we're much more politically aligned, I'm still learning stuff from your your >> Yeah. vice versa, dude. I mean, you know, learning is fun. We're like gang over here.

[00:57:35]>> I think once you feel like you know it all is when that's when that's a real problem.

[00:57:39]>> Yeah.

[00:57:40]>> When you feel like you like I don't need to learn anymore. I'm definitely like more interested in like in like learning new information that kind of challenges my preconceptions than I am about like having people tell me that I'm correct all the time.

[00:57:52]>> Yeah.

[00:57:52]>> I think I think it's like more fun for me or more interesting. Maybe I'm like you know maybe that's a privilege of mine that I >> you know get to get to be in that position because of whatever.

[00:58:03]Yeah. And one thing I think we should work on this is I'm going to just live put it on on recording so we can do it is I would love to do something like this but out in those like regional areas and I I thought of like you know kind of incent like an interesting title of like you know soy drinking inner city inner city or like you know in a woke inner city lefty debates 100 nation voters or something. I'm feeling like ways to talk like to bring our content out to those people lit not just like from our own homes.

[00:58:29]>> So milk is better. Change my mind.

[00:58:31]>> Yeah. And you go to like a dairy farm.

[00:58:34]Yeah. Where they do the dairy farm.

[00:58:36]>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But that's the thing too is like I think um >> Yeah. Cuz you like I hope people come and watch that channel too and people if they're One Nation will come and view cuz I think that >> I've never understood having your own echo chamber where you just have your fans that agree with you.

[00:58:49]>> I get much value with people that just and that's from you know as I said the me and non-Labor lefty but the labor people too. I think I've learned most about politics from Labour people >> because they're like soon as I'll say something that's slightly incorrect, >> I'll get like >> the voice of God.

[00:59:04]>> Yeah, I hear I hear every comment in Ethan's voice too telling me. Yeah. Yeah. But thanks for coming on the show. Oh, did you have any uh I guess like what's the summary here? One nation is rising and we're not sure why. There's many complicated reasons.

[00:59:17]>> I think that we can the most that we can learn about the reason why Pauline Hansen is doing well in the polls is basically from your YouTube analytics.

[00:59:24]That's what I've taken from it.

[00:59:26]>> Okay.

[00:59:27]>> Uh which is I don't know sounds a bit dumb but I think it's there's there's a there's a there's a grain of wisdom in there. I mean like >> yeah you know the the YouTube conspiracy Instagram like aliens are lizards who are also running the planet like that pipeline is like >> that's true. We know that's running strong like and and and as you like I'm very interested to like kind of hear how it's almost like >> you know it's there's like a financial like >> you know mechanism for making people be more nuts. It's like it's it's news >> it's kind of dangerous man >> you know where like I suppose we're like you know trying to fight the good fight.

[01:00:06]I think like the other thing I've taken from it is that I really respect your u your like you know like the responsibility that you take with with doing your channel and your like the comm the political communication that you're doing like you're like you're like you know like like I'm literally just happy to get out of the house like I'm just talking about [ __ ] I'm interested in >> um you've actually you know maybe I'll go away from this and think like you know what what more could I be doing to like actually sort of be a you know like advocate or you know force for political change or something instead of just, you know, saying, "Oh, here's some stuff I I think or whatever."

[01:00:40]>> Yeah. Look, I thought it last Yeah, I I appreciate that. Last Wait, we'll wait to see how much the money comes in. I was going to say if it starts coming in a lot, maybe I'll like in a year's time, it'll be like um >> once you got the Ben, >> Jess Wilson, worst worst uh premiere ever. But um yeah, no, I I did notice it when the audience started to come up. I started to feel that responsibility more cuz when when you're I mean I'm still anonymous now but like when I was like I had 50 subscribers I barely thought about it >> cuz my videos would only get like 30 views and I'd get some comments like I had some fans from the start who still follow me today and like I some of them email cuz my emails up so I got interactions with those people but as the audience goes up I'm starting to think about it more and more of like what is a responsibility maybe that can be its own we could do a whole other episode on that but yeah >> when you become a creator at that level and you start >> when you hit those milestones of like monetization or my next the next milestone I guess is when I get into the multiple thousands of subscribers.

[01:01:34]>> I don't want to just do the audience capture of like telling people what they want to hear.

[01:01:38]>> Yeah, >> I'll stay true to what I believe.

[01:01:40]>> But yeah, some people prefer the money.

[01:01:42]>> I think you got to stay nimble and and stay like able to just like >> push content out and not not like hold yourself to too high a standard where you like >> where it slows down what you're saying.

[01:01:52]You know what I mean? Like I think like it's probably okay to like be a little bit scrappy and like like that's our I guess like our approach is like you know we just >> it doesn't like >> you know we'll do our best to to to get all of the the facts right and try not to misrepresent anything but also like you know just just get it out there and be transparent.

[01:02:12]>> It's like learning as we go. Like I'm not sitting there like I'm an expert telling you everything and perfectly edited, perfectly sleek, no facts wrong.

[01:02:19]Yeah.

[01:02:19]>> It's like I'm just an everyday person.

[01:02:21]And I think that's what the kind of audience that we probably both have or that we're growing is they appreciate that too.

[01:02:27]>> Yeah.

[01:02:28]>> You know, we just learn as we go.

[01:02:30]>> Totally.

[01:02:30]>> Thanks for coming on the show.

[01:02:31]>> No, thanks for having me. That was a good chat.

[01:02:32]>> And um we watch for part two. I'll be on the GE. I'm going to get GE and we'll talk about economics because >> what better for the algorithm than economic theory. Yeah. Thanks for watching everyone.