Ep. 128 Craftsman Style Deep Dive | Passion for Craft Podcast

[00:00:01]The idea is you get out of North Ben Street, you you start your journey. You become a journeyman.

[00:00:06]>> That's the idea.

[00:00:09]>> Okay, let's stay high level. Okay?

[00:00:11]You're getting into too much detail.

[00:00:13][music] What changed? Why are you back?

[00:00:17]>> He just kept begging me to come back [laughter] and like, "Dude, all right."

[00:00:29]>> Welcome back to the Fashion for Craft podcast. Today, we're talking about another house style.

[00:00:36]Um we're going to talk about the Craftsman style um of houses. And before we dive in >> and we let Brent talk our ears off about all the things that he loves about the Craftsman style.

[00:00:48]>> Um I found a really cool website that I think is like one of the most helpful websites that I've ever seen on all of the historical styles.

[00:00:58]>> I'll be the judge of that.

[00:00:59]>> Uh it's Historic New England's um registry of house styles.

[00:01:05]I'm going to see if I can pull it up. I I'll put the proper address and the proper everything in here. Sorry, Vincent's rubbing off on me.

[00:01:12]All right, so it starts with the 17th and 18th century styles. So, it's like this would be what we call in America the first period style homes. Uh that's the John Ward House right there, Dad. We went there in Salem. Richard, you too.

[00:01:24]>> Oh, yes. No, that's not it.

[00:01:26]>> Just kidding.

[00:01:27]That looks exactly like it.

[00:01:28]>> remember we did. Remember it had all the gables on it. This one doesn't have any gables.

[00:01:32]>> Oh, good call. But, it's exact same style, exact same coloring, too, which is really interesting.

[00:01:37]>> [snorts] >> Where we got kicked out right there?

[00:01:39]>> Yeah, where we got kicked out. Yeah.

[00:01:41]>> So, if you scroll down, it's kind of interesting. I The photo gallery is going to be super helpful, but there's you can hit read more on every one of these. So, it'll be like you can read all the features. So, there's like typical features. And then there's like high style examples of this thing. So, the Georgian will have the high styles and other stuff.

[00:01:59]Very fascinating.

[00:02:01]They don't cover everything. They go up to uh Colonial Revival. So, they go up to like the 1920s, but I mean, wicked resource.

[00:02:09]>> You know, them not going past 19 the Colonial Revival style, why do you think that is?

[00:02:15]>> Pretty indicative, right?

[00:02:17]>> Of?

[00:02:17]>> Well, the lack of craft, right? Lack of a style. Isn't that what you'd say?

[00:02:20]>> Lack of a style.

[00:02:21]>> Yeah.

[00:02:22]>> Yeah.

[00:02:23]>> Second Empire, Stick Style, Shingle Style is next, I think. Uh Queen Anne, Shingle. Then there's Colonial Revival, and that's the last one that they go over. But, if you scroll down, scroll down to like >> we're talking about Victorian. Go to the Craftsman.

[00:02:39]Do they do They don't do Craftsman.

[00:02:40]>> they would.

[00:02:41]>> [laughter] >> So, all that build-up, and they don't even do Craftsman.

[00:02:44]>> Well, I'm sitting here cuz I've been using this resource cuz I've been trying to figure these things out, right? Like, I'm an idiot and I'm trying to figure all this stuff out. And uh anyway, I just thought this is a helpful resource, like us.

[00:02:55]>> If you click read more right there, it'll scroll down and it'll like say A lot of them have high style versions of whatever.

[00:03:01]>> Let's stay on this thing longer now that we know that it doesn't cover the >> Hey, this is a helpful resource. I Yeah, look at that. High style elaborations, and it'll go over the more stuff.

[00:03:10]I think this is a helpful tool.

[00:03:11]>> only If only they did this with the Arts and Crafts period.

[00:03:15]Then we Then we would have a resource we could actually talk about.

[00:03:18]>> what? I'm going to stop bringing up helpful tools for people just cuz it's not >> Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to use the leading Encyclopedia Britannica.

[00:03:25]>> [snorts] >> And then look up the British Museum.

[00:03:27]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:03:28]>> Oh, well, there's nothing about Shingle Style there, but it's really great resource.

[00:03:33]>> [laughter] >> And let's go to Egypt. Let's uh There's a great resource in Egypt on the Craftsman period.

[00:03:42]Uh oh, yeah, there's nothing about Craftsman in there.

[00:03:45]>> [laughter] >> All right. Anyway, I did But, I said I said before we dive in, right? I said before we go >> We're going to take this useless detour.

[00:03:53]>> It was it was a hope.

[00:03:54]>> I didn't know what was going to be [laughter] in there. I just thought it was going to be a helpful tool because there are all these style tips and >> But figuring out styles is one of the hardest things.

[00:04:02]>> And this is a great resource for that.

[00:04:03]>> Is this a good It is a good resource.

[00:04:05]>> Okay, thank you.

[00:04:06]>> Now, back to the topic we were going to spend time on today.

[00:04:10]>> I just found out about a cool thing. God forbid I share it with everyone.

[00:04:14]>> All right, so everybody knows the Craftsman style is in what period of time?

[00:04:20]>> Yeah, everyone knows.

[00:04:21]>> What era?

[00:04:23]>> It's the era that's after where this one stops.

[00:04:27]>> Yeah, after World War I.

[00:04:29]Whatever the one >> you brought this up actually because it gets me in the ballpark.

[00:04:32]>> So, what years was the Craftsman style?

[00:04:37]>> Um isn't it like 1920s to like 1950s?

[00:04:41]>> No.

[00:04:42]>> Really?

[00:04:43]>> 1900?

[00:04:45]To 1910?

[00:04:49]1910?

[00:04:50]>> 1900 about It really goes back you could you could argue it goes back to the 1890s, but it's the Arts and Crafts era, okay? It's the one that takes over after the Victorian era. So, there's some overlap that takes place.

[00:05:03]So, you're looking at 1890-ish and it really the early that late Victorian period it it's more prevalent in London in England where William Morris and you know, Sean Ruskin and a bunch of those guys were anti-industrialists wanting to go back to an Arts and Crafts period. So, they were they were they're the machine has sucked the soul out of craft. You know, all we're just making trinkets, nothing's handmade anymore.

[00:05:28]And so, we need to get back to this Arts and Crafts society. Pugin, Ruskin, Morris, all those guys even they go back to the 1850s and earlier are talking about this. And so, in America, the guys who picked that up and the and the chief component the the guy picked that up is >> We come to this place to learn not because we know everything.

[00:05:53]>> You talking about the guy that the guy that really took off with arts and crafts?

[00:05:58]Yes, and in particular craftsman style.

[00:06:01]>> Frank Lloyd Wright.

[00:06:03]I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[00:06:05]>> And he had a magazine called The Craftsman.

[00:06:07]>> No kidding.

[00:06:08]>> Yes.

[00:06:09]>> Who is it?

[00:06:10]Gustav Stickley.

[00:06:12]>> Gustav Stickley.

[00:06:14]Um So, Gustav Stickley ironically, okay, was not an architect. He was a furniture maker.

[00:06:21]>> Just like you. Oh, not like that.

[00:06:22]>> No.

[00:06:23]Uh so, Stickley it ended up writing his his magazine called The Craftsman, okay, and he actually even was wasn't even the the main author. There's another lady who was the the main author, but he was the was the proponent. He was an influencer. He was a uh a guy who basically spread the spread the spread the word, you know, preached the gospel.

[00:06:46]>> [clears throat] >> He would >> Yes, he would have things in his magazine like I could go get some of his magazines. I can Would that be helpful if I grabbed some Craftsman magazines?

[00:06:57]>> I defer to our producer.

[00:06:58]>> Um the uh he would have things in there like how to build furniture and how to build >> Cool.

[00:07:03]>> and how to raise bees.

[00:07:06]>> [laughter] >> You're not going to believe this.

[00:07:09]Okay.

[00:07:10]How about you take a seat and then we'll be on the edge of it.

[00:07:14]>> The philosophy Gustav Stickley Bees and the ultimate craftsman Stickley viewed the honey bee as a natural symbol of the arts and crafts movement's ideals. To him the bee represented industry and cooperation, utility and beauty.

[00:07:30]Then it goes on. October 1913 article titled when the amateurs keep bees discuss the business and pleasure of beekeeping.

[00:07:39]>> I said he might have gotten into bees.

[00:07:42]Um okay.

[00:07:44]>> Why did you say that? Because you read some stuff about it?

[00:07:46]>> So, when I got back from North Bennett Street >> Yeah, you wanted to keep bees, too.

[00:07:51]>> [laughter] >> Uh I I these are very they're very fragile.

[00:07:57]So, I'm I'm showing them kind of carefully, but um the the basically So, he did this magazine from the early 1900s to about 1915 or 16.

[00:08:09]This sheet this that symbol right there?

[00:08:12]>> It's a beehive.

[00:08:14]>> What is it? Uh it's kind of a divider a compass divider kind of kind of thing.

[00:08:22]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:08:22]>> The reason I came up with the symbol was because of Stickley.

[00:08:25]>> No way.

[00:08:26]>> Yes, because I wanted my flag planted in the ground be famous like his.

[00:08:32]And so, I wanted a symbol that represented kind of what we were about.

[00:08:35]>> That's cool.

[00:08:36]>> So, anyway, if you read these books and you read this stuff, you know, he's he's basically the influencer. I mean, look at the the cover on that thing. Right?

[00:08:45]That he did it in burlap they're kind of these natural materials this natural stuff. And so, you know, he if you read it, he then has talked about things like how to build furniture, how to how to garden, how to to do a bunch of stuff around the house. And so, >> Become an apiary.

[00:09:04]>> So, the bees were natural. Yes. And so, you know, farming was natural. And so, he ends up being this guy who obviously his furniture very different than the Victorian furniture that came before him. And so, he is proponent of this what we call today a craftsman style house, okay?

[00:09:24]But really the Arts and Crafts period is kind of made up of three different styles of houses. Prairie, the bungalow, and the and the craftsman.

[00:09:34]Now, the bungalow was a term in 1920 that just meant small house, okay? It didn't mean an Arts and Crafts house.

[00:09:43]>> So you could have like a bungalow cottage?

[00:09:46]>> Yeah, you could have a Spanish bungalow, right? You could have, you know, and so they bungalow was as described just a small house. And so we use it today because out in Greene & Greene there were because of that book that came out that basically talking about Greene & Greene architecture, the Gamble House is called the ultimate bungalow. And so um you end up with these small house features on this very grand house, but in any case. So the Craftsman style of house therefore is and the reason I say house styles kind of fall apart after the ranch period because in the the Craftsman style house were actually around a ethos, around a philosophy, a system of thinking about simplicity, you know, back to nature. And so moldings were stained, flat, unadorned. And that's your lifestyle was all through that way. The hardware was very flat and simple. Hand-hammered copper for the lights, leaded glass, all these natural, natural, natural things that were meant to, you know, be a departure from the things that were made in the factory.

[00:10:55]Now, ironically what happened during this period is that the Arts and Crafts things were very expensive because they're handmade. And so even though they're trying to get to a simplicity lifestyle, they ended up pricing themselves out of the thing. And so there ended up being >> Was the hope that everyone would be able to just do it on their own? Not necessarily.

[00:11:17]>> And so what's funny is and ironic is that Stickley was a huge hit for about 15 years.

[00:11:26]>> Mhm.

[00:11:26]>> For about 10 years.

[00:11:28]>> I get it looking at that.

[00:11:29]>> he built a skyscraper in New York, 15-story skyscraper filled with his furniture, filled with his kitchens, filled with his his lighting, filled with his this thing Yeah, look at that. Uh look at the different floors on that thing.

[00:11:44]Uh the Craftsman restaurant was a was above, right? So, this this guy is total influencer, you know, you know, thing of Chip and Joanna having the Magnolia Cafe down there, right? He's He's He is Chip and Joanna for that period.

[00:12:00]And so, rugs, decorating, right? I mean, just all all that all that stuff.

[00:12:06]>> workshops up there on the eighth floor.

[00:12:08]>> Club room, library, right? It was a lifestyle. It was a It was you were you were >> Um kind of you know, buying into all this stuff. And so, fairly quickly, right? That that world fell apart. I mean, it was it was great for a time, but then, you know, it moved on. It was a fad essentially, and he got left, and he had a he had a ton of debt, and he had a ton of debt and other things. But actually, before he did the the the the juxtaposition between the high-rise thing and his Craftsman farms, like if you look at his original farm, um and and their desire to have this little studio, this little this little farm where arts and crafts were done, that then grows into this huge empire of you know, of a New York skyscraper, >> Yeah.

[00:12:54]>> right? You're seeing this the arc of this success, >> Interesting.

[00:12:58]>> and then him going away. Now, uh the other thing I would say is that >> he lost his way?

[00:13:03]>> I think the the the the style moved on.

[00:13:07]He was trying to hold on to a style. The greatest irony is we think of arts and crafts furniture and Stickley furniture as being this iconic, once-in-a-lifetime when he when things when the style moved away from him, when the popularity moved away from him, his last catalog had colonial revival furniture in it.

[00:13:25]Ain't that crazy?

[00:13:26]So, he was a businessman, right? But also was holding on to this idea, but that to us today to think that he had this this guy who was the creator of this Arts and Crafts furniture >> Yeah.

[00:13:40]>> you know, giving up on it and going to try to do colonial revival furniture like >> Keeping up with the Joneses.

[00:13:46]>> Right. Well, wouldn't that it was more it'd be like when when something's a fad and a style is really hot. I mean, I don't I can't doing Chip and Joanna, but I don't There's There's probably another example, but shiplap and everything was shiplap and you know, then then no one wants shiplap anymore and they go this way and they say, "Well, what about you know, um cottage? Oh, you can do cottage, too.

[00:14:11]We can do this." And And anyway, it just fell apart. The other thing that's interesting is that when I moved back and I'm telling you this, son, because when I when I moved back to Texas, I quickly realized that there were no medieval houses here. There were no, you know, Georgian houses, no federal houses, no Greek revival houses, very few Victorian houses. So, I had to change my focus and learn about these styles. I had to I read books on Frank Lloyd Wright, I read books on Gustav Stickley, I read books on And so, you've got to you're going to have to shift your frame of mind of what the architectural housing stock that we have here because you're it's just >> different.

[00:14:51]>> It's different.

[00:14:52]>> [clears throat] >> The other thing that's interesting if you go back to that farm thing is most of his houses, even though that was the the ideal uh this kind of rustic cabin, right? Is what that looks like.

[00:15:03]>> Yep.

[00:15:03]>> Very I think very different. Go to the picture on the lower right cuz you see the front of the house.

[00:15:09]Yeah, right there.

[00:15:11]That's maybe a little bit of a craftsman house, but but if you just looked at the iconic or the the the typical craftsman style house >> Mhm.

[00:15:20]>> they are you know, big open porches um and they're smaller houses. They're working man's house. They aren't really the ideal that he established with his craftsman farms. So, which is which is kind of interesting. I mean, even looking at that house there I probably wouldn't describe that house as a craftsman style house. Right? I would probably say that that's a you know, English cottage or something like that.

[00:15:46]There's a little bit of a European college and things going on here. So, here we are looking at his house books.

[00:15:51]Now, these these pictures much more of the Greene and Greene kind of, you know, deep overhanging eaves.

[00:15:58]Right? You're looking at you're looking at at brackets, too, on this thing that >> Yeah, that picture almost doesn't fit the on that one sitting there.

[00:16:08]>> It doesn't even >> No.

[00:16:09]>> No, this one, yeah.

[00:16:09]>> It doesn't even fit the title of that book.

[00:16:12]More craftsman homes and it shows a little cottage type thing, you know.

[00:16:16]>> So I mean, you know, look at this house, right? This one's called the inexpensive cement and shingle cottage.

[00:16:22]>> That was really interesting.

[00:16:24]>> So, he is, you know >> The moldings are made of cement.

[00:16:27]>> Yeah.

[00:16:28]>> Really?

[00:16:28]>> Yeah, that's what it said.

[00:16:29]>> So, the the the uh there's a concrete house here in Fort Worth um where the moldings are made of cements and >> There's one near our houses.

[00:16:39]>> Anyway craftsman style, arts and crafts style is one of my favorite styles.

[00:16:44]Um he did some interesting things with trim that I you just kind of see right here where he did this banding.

[00:16:50]So, there's the ceiling about, you know, 16 or 18 inches above that.

[00:16:54]>> Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:16:55]>> But, you would see this banding going across that would carry through the whole room.

[00:16:59]>> What height What height ceilings would that be?

[00:17:01]>> Eight, nine.

[00:17:03]>> But, that that band across the top like the chair rail you know, that I like to tie to the window sill they've got that header that would then run around and and hit the hit the top of the doors and everything else.

[00:17:15]>> It's a little interesting. It's kind of cool. Cuz if you're proportioning out a room and you do a chair rail that's like whatever, I guess that would be the entablature. It wouldn't be the chair rail or wouldn't be the pedestal.

[00:17:27]But I was thinking maybe they took the wherever the height of the chair rail is and just dropped it to >> Well, one thing it doesn't make sense.

[00:17:33]>> One thing it does is that I say moldings do two things.

[00:17:37]One, they're they're meant to used as elements for scale and proportion. They divide it up the room so you know how to look at it. The other thing they do is they unify architectural elements.

[00:17:48]So when they tie windows with doors, when they tie their even if their proportions aren't necessarily pure, it is organizing the space. It is organizing it so that you can look at it and kind of realize it and pull it all together.

[00:18:01]Uh Frank Lloyd Wright did that same thing with the with the bands that would run around a room. The Robie House on the inside of that has that banding that that he would do so there. So I mean they all did it, right? It's >> So um >> almost kind of a you know, stylized timber. Kind of weird, you know, way he's put that together with banding instead of a timber.

[00:18:25]Anyway, the uh Arts and Crafts style was one of my favorite. My wife doesn't like it because it's too dark inside. Uh it's too masculine is what she would say. And so I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Um I find them to be very homey, comfortable.

[00:18:41]Uh uh there's open floor plans often times inside these things and so anyway, uh I think they're great.

[00:18:47]>> So what are some uh key features of it? I'm seeing in a lot of these books, it looks like there's exposed timbers or implied exposed timbers.

[00:18:56]>> Well, they wouldn't be implied. Um >> They would have been really.

[00:19:00]Yeah. Okay.

[00:19:00]>> so you're looking at, you know, bracketed eaves, open open rafter tails, >> Okay.

[00:19:06]>> uh not closed eaves. You you've got you've got bracketing. You've got uh uh the columns on the porches end up being these big strong piers as opposed to a dainty column. So, you have a a 2x2 pier on the front of a porch. So, they're very heavy and strong. They the the proportions on the things end up being more Tuscan, which is like a 1:7 relationship as far as size and strength of these things. So, they're they end up being very grounded in the land. One of the great things that you see about like the Gamble House and Greene & Greene work is that you see these houses growing up out of the ground. So, you'll see these massive boulders, then these smaller boulders, then going to brick uh before they would before they would come up.

[00:19:52]But, it was all part of this thing that this this house style was very grounded in the ground, kind of earthy. You know, the clinker bricks that they would use to kind of uh that that kind of show this earth and stone kind of thing. So, anyway, it's just uh that was that was very much a part of that of that story, okay? That that that the colors were you know, earth tone colors. And so, there there And look at this in contrast to the Victorian. Victorian was very bright colors, these uh crazy ornamentation, ornamentation that didn't do anything, was just there to ornament. And you get into the Arts and Crafts period and it's very much no no no, simple, honest, we're we're not going to do that. So, >> How many of those Greene & Greene houses did they [clears throat] do?

[00:20:39]>> I don't know. There's probably 20 out there or something like that that that are actually Greene & Greene.

[00:20:43]>> been to one?

[00:20:44]>> Mhm.

[00:20:45]I've been on that I've been on the tour.

[00:20:47]Um I don't know, maybe not be 20, but there there's there there's a bunch out there.

[00:20:53]Yeah.

[00:20:54]>> Really?

[00:20:55]>> There's a walking tour you can do in that neighborhood and see all all a whole bunch of Charles and Henry Greene houses.

[00:21:01]>> Oh, you just walk in. People live there.

[00:21:02]>> You're walking You live there. There are There are weekends where those houses are open you can go through them. So, >> And that's in all in California?

[00:21:09]>> All in Pasadena.

[00:21:11]>> Wow.

[00:21:12]>> Um you know, the Green Green, too, is is is high as hyped as they were at the time, they too fell off the chart. I mean, they you know, Charles and Henry Green were were dying for work, you know, in in the '30s and '40s, you know, kind of you know, they were Consider that you're third 30 years old, 35 years old in the heyday of all those all those houses that they were doing.

[00:21:37]You know, the style goes away, right?

[00:21:39]What what happens? We go to World War I World War I, the architects and everybody comes back from Europe.

[00:21:45]They're enchanted by the English cottage, the French cottage. The colonial revival is huge. And so, the Arts and Crafts period ends up just kind of drifting away. And so, you remember that that Brady Bunch where where I think it was the Brady movie or is the Brady show after? I think it was the Brady movie. Done in the '80s.

[00:22:05]Mr. Brady, you know, had been an architect.

[00:22:08]And he everything he's showing everything he's presented it looks like a '70s thing and and there we are in the '80s or '90s and they they're all inappropriate. So, it's like the strip center looks like a a '70s house. The the high-rise looked like a '70s house.

[00:22:23]>> I just see that, yeah.

[00:22:24]>> He just he he missed it, right? And so, they're still they're known for this style, they're known for this unique thing. And that's why Stickley is like, I can do colonial revival, too.

[00:22:34]>> Yeah.

[00:22:35]>> You [laughter] know, that was the popular style and they're just like, you you don't do colonial revival. And so, anyway, he got left behind. And so, uh those two guys, Stickley and and Green and Green, those two pair, they're they're they they get left behind. The only one who really doesn't get left behind, least long-term, is Frank Lloyd Wright, right? The the head of the Prairie School. Because he does Falling Water, I think in the '30s and you know, he does all of his stuff, right? Which is which is He was so influential and so powerful and so such a genius of designing things like that.

[00:23:14]His early Robie House, which is what you would consider in that Prairie movement and then he goes to you know, doing the more modern stuff and he does the Tokyo Tokyo Hotel and everything. So anyway, he's >> Shout out Tokyo Cafe.

[00:23:28]>> And he's >> [laughter] >> He's more nationally recognized for being a genius than the other ones were.

[00:23:34]So >> [snorts] >> Why do you think they fall off like that's all they knew how to do? Like if you you don't have like a style that you're just this is all we do, you know?

[00:23:44]Like you wouldn't fall off.

[00:23:46]You know what I mean?

[00:23:47]>> Oh, he'd fall off all right.

[00:23:49]I don't know. I think it's probably such a specific little unique period of time.

[00:23:55]Trying to think there's another example.

[00:23:57]>> Cuz you're building what people want. I mean, you're giving them your perspective.

[00:24:02]>> I think what our stick is is that it's that new old house, right? That that a house grounded in history with the reasons why we're any timber, stone work, any of those things are grounded in the past and so I'm inspired by looking at those things and wanted to bring that forward. So I don't I don't tend to be pigeonholed about you know, you can only do barns or you can only do you know, colonial revival or something. Cuz we're practicing a lot of those the the different styles. I mean, it's a love of craft and love of history is driving a lot of our stuff and so I mean, I think it's just unique period of time. I mean, it's like almost like 70 flare bottom jeans, right? It's just it was a it was a fad, it was hot, it was it. Everybody doing it and then skinny jeans happened and everybody went skinny jeans, but all you did was make flare bottom bare bottom. I mean, that's a bad example, but it's just those guys got left behind. There's no doubt about it.

[00:24:59]>> So, one of the things you were saying that was leaving behind these guys is the war?

[00:25:03]Like styles changing throughout the war?

[00:25:05]>> So, World War I want to start in 1914.

[00:25:09]>> Yeah.

[00:25:09]>> Right. Right. Gustav Stickley his empire crashes in like 1915. So, >> So, I'm thinking about this like reading all these old books with Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and how particular these guys were about their homes.

[00:25:29]You've got these old building manifestos. That's the wrong word. Um they're sending letters to their builders.

[00:25:36]I want white oak. I don't want this.

[00:25:38]This is a wrong wood for this application.

[00:25:42]Were these guys just exceptional human beings where they were like excellent in statecraft, excellent in war, excellent in knowing about home building? Or are we just as people less informed or like like you know what I mean? Cuz there's >> I think it's both.

[00:25:59]>> What would you describe that show Idiocracy or something?

[00:26:01]>> Idiocracy.

[00:26:02]>> Idiocracy.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah. [laughter] You think there's a little bit of that?

[00:26:06]>> I think it's a little bit of that. It the uh one is that guys in Jefferson's and Washingtonians time were expected to understand architecture. Okay? Just like we might expect a guy today to be able to talk about >> Instagram.

[00:26:22]>> Calculus.

[00:26:23]>> [laughter] >> Anybody else?

[00:26:25]The uh the the the best quarterback for the Cowboys. Okay? Right? Just just be able to talk about sports or to be able to you know what is a gentleman expected to know or talk about, right? And I don't know what a sports may not be the thing, but it might be you know we're so fragmented today. There's not really a a topic like that. To be able to keep up finances, to be able to be able be a business person, to be a there's some expertise that's required. I think historically the expertise that was required in that day was architecture. I mean, consider the fact that most buildings were ugly back then.

[00:27:02]Were I shouldn't say ugly. They were crude, right? You didn't really have the the the shine today, you know, Carter's Grove and some of these other really great houses that these guys built. Few and far between. So, if you had money, you were expected to express and show that you understood design and things like that. So, part of it is there was a higher expectation for guys like that to know about it. Um I think that having read books on both those guys, >> they were also just freaks of nature.

[00:27:32]>> Yeah. Yeah, well, no doubt. Yeah, I mean, for sure. For sure, they were. And so, um um >> There's a like George Washington has written stuff about that.

[00:27:45]But, if you've seen the the TV show, I know you haven't, uh turned is what it's called. It's talking about Washington spies. There's a scene in it where Washington's like in the middle of a war meeting and his wife comes in and is like, "Oh, the builder said this." He's like, "I wanted the panels in white oak."

[00:28:02]>> And he's like [laughter] this very random thing. Like it's in the middle of nothing about his house, nothing ever, but they wanted to show that side of him.

[00:28:10]>> say white oak?

[00:28:11]>> Yeah, he did.

[00:28:12]>> Nice.

[00:28:12]>> Cuz they weren't making things in white oak.

[00:28:14]>> They weren't?

[00:28:15]>> No. I mean, if he had timber frame would be in white oak, but you wouldn't have paneled.

[00:28:20]>> Yeah.

[00:28:20]>> In white oak?

[00:28:21]>> Why?

[00:28:22]>> Is the panels or the doors?

[00:28:23]>> Did you ever try to plane white oak?

[00:28:26]>> Don't they do that in England, though?

[00:28:27]>> Very by hand.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah, by hand.

[00:28:30]>> No.

[00:28:30]>> Don't they do that in France, though?

[00:28:33]>> They do. Why?

[00:28:34]>> Is it French oak? Is that the difference?

[00:28:36]>> No.

[00:28:38]Labor. It's skill and and and time and and and cost, right?

[00:28:43]>> So, the TV show is wrong?

[00:28:44]>> You see I think it is. It's It's so if you if you say uh >> [laughter] >> if you say I mean, I don't think that conversation ever happened. Just so we're [laughter] Just so we're clear.

[00:28:56]>> me a sandwich.

[00:28:56]>> There >> Yeah.

[00:28:59]He says I said white oak.

[00:29:01]>> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:29:03]>> I want to look up the quote cuz I'm now questioning myself. I'm like, did >> So, he could have said if [clears throat] they're building the frame, then do it out of white oak cuz most frames are out of oak.

[00:29:15]>> Right.

[00:29:15]>> But but I mean, I don't think there's an example of hardwood paneling in America.

[00:29:23]Certainly not at today.

[00:29:26]>> You haven't done it?

[00:29:28]>> No, I'm saying pre from the Georgian or Federal period.

[00:29:32]Right? I'm saying I'm saying that there's not a house >> [laughter] >> in America where they did that, >> [clears throat] >> right? And so, if you go to the Philadelphia Museum where Fiske Kimball, great collector and and guy collected European rooms. There are rooms in there of oak and I think there's another one of pine, but they're how did Why did they do it? Money? They had incredible amount of money and skilled labor.

[00:29:59]I mean, I I when if you think of Gunston Hall where where Thomas Mason built his house and William Buckland, he he goes to he sends his brother to England to find someone who can finish it out their house. Find someone who can who can make rooms and make paneling and make things like this, okay? That room is chinoiserie, okay? That is a a Chinese influenced dining room, okay? No one's doing that.

[00:30:34]>> That's Gunston Hall?

[00:30:35]>> Uh-huh.

[00:30:35]>> Oh, I thought that was Winterthur.

[00:30:37]>> Mhm.

[00:30:38]>> They've got one of those rooms in there.

[00:30:39]>> So, it it's just like, you know, we didn't I don't I Brent thinks that the skill level is a lot lower than than most people think. I was also in New Orleans this weekend. We looked at Destrehan Plantation Destrehan Plantation and and the architect for it was a was a black man. And so and you're like, well, where did he learn design? Where did he learn those details? And so they would have taught them they would have trained them on that stuff.

[00:31:09]>> They they made it Greek Revival later, but but that's why those columns are where they are. But anyway, it's um >> Yeah, that's great.

[00:31:21]>> Anyway, so so I think we had a lack of skill level. I think we had a lack of skilled architects. And so a lot of the things we built and the reason why Jefferson and and Washington were were like that was probably cuz they they probably knew as much as anybody.

[00:31:36]>> Well, I it just brought to mind with the Craftsman stuff falling out of style like that. It you know, part of it's technology and being able to switch styles in a matter of years, right? Like you can a style can fall out in 3 years versus, you know, you got you go well into the Federal period and there's still Georgian houses being built because the dissemination of information is different, right? But now you've got 1910, 1911, 12, 13 Nope, new style, you know?

[00:32:05]>> Yeah, I mean, I don't think I don't think we understand the influence of the world that the the the influ- social influences that would cause the style to change. I don't know how much of the war shook the world up enough to say we're going back to these styles. I don't think we understand how influential the the the Europe was on our soldiers, on our architects. I know John Staub went back over to England after he had gone to war over there in World War I and and toured there for like 3 years >> Mhm.

[00:32:37]>> looking at their architecture, so enamored by this deal, and then coming back and building the things he was building. I think it was powerful what was going on. And uh I don't think we realized how strong that was.

[00:32:51]>> That's a great point.

[00:32:52]Yeah, that's >> And so, you know, you talk about you know, why styles change, what what happened, why would they do that? Well, it's hard to know exactly, and but I think things like that shook them up more than we know.

[00:33:06]>> things that you're working on, you're work He's working on a lot of infographics right now.

[00:33:12]There's this theologian that I follow, Wes Huff, who's got like these >> I've heard him.

[00:33:16]>> He'll have infographics on his page.

[00:33:18]They're just helpful.

[00:33:20]And you're working on a bunch of them.

[00:33:21]>> Trying to.

[00:33:22]>> And I don't know uh >> These would be in arc Ours would be in architecture.

[00:33:26]>> Yes.

[00:33:27]>> Right.

[00:33:27]>> Yes. Sorry. But what you were asking a couple of ideas of like, "Oh, what would you be looking for? What would you know, whatever?" I thought So, if you have ideas, send them in. Um but one of the things that I was saying would be super interesting would be kind of like a holy grail and would just be like a publishable thing. And and I think it's too much work to figure out, but it would be very interesting to see in different major cities where the first X style home is, when it popped up, when it was built, and then you get a map, and you can actually see the spread of the style across the nation over X amount of years, like it'd be obviously it would have to be a moving infographic cuz you're like, "All right, here's federal.

[00:34:09]Here's whatever."

[00:34:10]>> I think you can do you could probably do that with Asher Benjamin, too, because his book, which went into, you know, 16 editions or 18 editions, preaching the Greek Revival style, I found out about that influence in Mississippi. I that influence in Texas, that influence, you know, and and and where where it spread and where it moved, you know, it wasn't necessarily Well, his books would be one way to track that and you you could see it fan out.

[00:34:39]>> Anyway, we didn't talk about about the Craftsman style, but we kind of talked about why the why of the Craftsman style and uh >> I think this is helpful in Craftsman.

[00:34:49]>> just as important. Okay, good.

[00:34:51]>> I always walk away feeling really good, learning more about Craftsman cuz it is helpful understanding that it was hoping to be more of like a people know how to do this type of style, you know, versus a I and I like that there was at some point in our history someone pushing for that.

[00:35:08]Cuz I feel like you're kind of making a push for that that people understand stuff and understand why. Maybe not necessarily how to do it, but >> Well, I mean it it I mean he he would be an interesting study of uh uh of a turn-of-the-century influencer.

[00:35:22]>> Well, he's a big fan of uh of beekeeping, so I'm a big fan of his.

[00:35:26]>> So, I mean just just how he built his empire so quickly and then it it fell apart so quickly as well. But, I mean >> Just like a beehive.

[00:35:34]>> the things that he was doing, how he got the word out, you know, uh what resonated with with people so much.

[00:35:41]Was it, you know, something Did Was it the Victorians so awful that that ideal, you know, or was it William Morris and and Ruskin and the other ones in England who start the wave and he just picks it up at a timely you know, the right time and kind of runs with it.

[00:36:00]>> I mean, what you're saying about the Victorian being so awful does make a little bit of sense, right? Like there's so much going on in the Victorian. It's like >> Well, especially that last stage of Victorian, the Queen Anne style is is is I think admittedly they would say a um >> So ornamental.

[00:36:17]>> Yeah, and and it and it's this and it's this uh collection of timbering and and turrets and you know, crazy glass and crazy colors and all these different things.

[00:36:29]It means it's literally everything thrown at that thrown at that house. And so, I mean, I think that was overwhelming.

[00:36:36]>> Yeah.

[00:36:37]>> I think.

[00:36:38]>> Just perfect for my ADHD.

[00:36:40]>> Yeah, there you go. Perfect.

[00:36:42]Well, I'm sorry. I got to run.

[00:36:43]>> All right. Well, thank you guys for watching this episode of the Passion for Craft Podcast, and we'll see you in the next one after Brent's haircut.