The 2024 UK local elections marked a pivotal moment in British political history, signaling the collapse of the traditional two-party system and the emergence of a fragmented five-party landscape. The Labour Party's devastating losses—losing 1,400 council seats just two years after their historic 2024 landslide—demonstrated that economic dissatisfaction and voter anger over cost of living issues had transcended traditional party lines, with voters punishing Labour from both left (Green Party) and right (Reform UK). This political realignment reflects broader European trends where centrist leadership struggles to address existential challenges, and the rise of populist movements challenges established political establishments. The case illustrates how economic crises can fundamentally reshape political landscapes, forcing parties to reconsider their positioning and leaders to demonstrate genuine vision rather than mere political maneuvering.
Britain’s Far-Right Movement Is Going Full MAGAAdded:
Welcome back to Pod Save the World. I'm Tommy Vtor.
>> I'm Ben Rhodess.
>> Ben, congrats on your New York nicker boxers.
>> It's unreal. Tommy, this is the best that they've played in my entire life.
>> Usually when they're good, it is still agonizing.
>> I don't know what it feels like to have your team just like pace the [ __ ] out of everybody they play. Just crush and be fun and cool and >> and have our fans take over Philadelphia, >> yawn bing bong at people. Yeah, it was it was uh you know it was let's put it this way like a four game destruction of Philadelphia was more fun than what would have been probably an agonizing Nick Celtics series for six or seven games. So >> would have been tough. Uh Ben Stiller out there tweeting away. So bang >> Twin Towers. A lot of tweets that we taken a couple different ways.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Stiller's uh uh he like I said, he's just living my text thread on online.
>> Does he sit on the wood? Is he sit like a courtside?
>> He's a courtside. Yeah.
>> So awesome. Yeah.
>> What do you think those cost?
>> I got to go >> on the wood.
>> Uh, yes. Um, for the first time this year and it's weird because you look kind of look down this row >> and there's like Spike Lee, Ben Stiller, you know, Shalom wasn't there that day.
>> Um, Tracy Morgan and it's it's, you know, I I I I actually like our celebrities. Like sometimes that's kind of nauseating, but like Spike Lee, come on.
>> I mean, Spike's been going forever through thick and thin. They they suck mostly and yeah, he absolutely deserves to to enjoy this. Shalom has proven himself to be a real sports fan.
Seemingly a pretty cool guy.
>> I will say that there they have the ex players there, which is cool to see, too. Um I I won't name names, but one of them walked by me and the the whiff of marijuana was like one of the most powerful smells I've I got like a contact eye on the court side, but it's good. It's good.
>> Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. And then Jim Dolan is like u using AI facial recognition to kick out any critics. All right, just to give a wreck here, Pablo Tori did a fine guy about Dolan.
>> Dolan's the owner of the Knicks and he literally like has his freaking security goons run around the stadium and chase people that chant things critical of him. He's that petty of a sad little man.
>> Monitors people in the bathroom. It's really creepy.
>> That is really >> kind of palunteeresque.
>> Gross. It's very palenteesque.
>> Um, okay. Enough about the Knicks.
Congrats. I'm happy for you. Uh, we have a great great show today. We're going to lead with something new. But we're going to talk about the recent elections in the UK which were a disaster for the Labor Party uh and have led to widespread calls for Prime Minister Kirst to step aside and allow a leadership election. We'll debate whether that's a good idea or not. Then we're going to walk you through the last disastrous week in the disastrous war with Iran. We got abandoned missions.
Ben, ceasefires on life support. We had ballooning economic consequences, all of it. Then we watched Israeli Prime Minister BB Netanyahu's uh interview on 60 Minutes so that you don't have to.
We're going to let you know about all the hard-hitting questions from the new and improved Barry Weiss. CBS will preview Trump's trip to China. He's gonna he's actually I think he's in there right now. Um he's going to go meet with Chinese President Xiinping.
We'll tell you what both sides won out of the visit, what it means for Iran, what it means for Taiwan. Uh we'll talk a little bit about some jockeying for the future of the Democratic Party on foreign policy. We'll [ __ ] about coverage of Marco Rubio because that's all we have left. We're just whiny little babies cry about stuff. Uh and then we're going to tell you about Cash Patel's recent testimony in the US Senate. Uh that then you did our interview.
>> I talked to Susie Hansen who's uh a really great journalist who's written for like the New York Times magazine among other places. She lived in Turkey for 10 years and she wrote a book essentially about one neighborhood but it's really about the transformation of Turkey under Taipeagon. um both inside of Turkey, but also this role it's played in welcoming millions of Syrian refugees in uh the the the Arab Spring in you know the rise of authoritarianism that Erdogan's been a part of. Um so it's both a conversation about Erdogan and Turkey but also about understanding what's happened in the world through this place that all the trends converge in. I mean like there's not one thing that hasn't happened in the world in the last 15 years that hasn't run through Turkey. So it's a great conversation, great book. People should check it out.
>> I always think about the day that there was that attempted coup and we talk about that too. Fighter jets.
>> Yeah.
>> Flying over.
>> That's what Yeah, we were just you came in and we were still talking about it after the interview because I have so many questions about >> tanks rolling down the street and then just disappeared >> and yet Aeron seemed to know about it but did he? But >> he's like facetiming from his phone on the plane.
>> The whole thing was very strange.
>> [ __ ] crazy. Uh, finally after that, uh, our friends of the pod subscribers will hear Ben and I take some questions from the Friend of the Pod subscriber community from our Discord. If you want to join, go to crooked.com/friend. You get ad free episodes of this show, ad free episodes of Pods Save America. You get bonus episodes of Pod Save America.
You get polling deep dives from Dan Feifer and you can get discounted tickets to Crooked Con, uh, our second annual jamberee of politics, fun, hot takes, cold takes, uh, light drinking, heavy petting, there's all of it. So, uh, crooked.com/friend if you want to go. And by the way, subscribing is the number one thing you could do to help us grow as a progressive independent media company.
And if that's a bridge too far for you, at least just subscribe to Podsafe World on YouTube or or wherever you get your podcasts. Rate the show, review the show. It really helps us grow and we will appreciate it. So, all right, Ben, let's talk uh let's leave with the UK because we've been doing Iran stuff for like two months straight now. Um, there have been some major political minations in the UK. uh Prime Minister Kierst Armor's tenure as Prime Minister could be over soon or not. We just don't know yet. The backstory here is last week there were local elections in England and elections to the Scottish and Welsh parliaments. Um these were not elections to parliament itself. It was not like directly impacting Starburst standing, but these council elections are seen as bellweathers to assess the political mood in the UK and the mood is pissed.
Voters are pissed. Uh the results were really really bad for the Labor Party.
Remember, Labor won in a historic landslide in 2024. But in this election, just two years later, Labor lost 1,400 council seats. So, it's just a drubbing.
Um, and Labor lost votes from both directions. They lost to the Greens on their left. They lost to Reform UK on their right. Reform is the right-wing xenophobic party run by Nigel Farage.
Um, the cameo star Nigel Farage. So, reform, they made big gains in England.
Reform also did really well in Wales and Scotland. In Wales, the Welsh Nationalist Party won the most seats, but reform came in second in Labor and the Tories lost ground. Uh this came after Labor was literally the leading party in Wales for 100 years, over 100 years. And then in Scotland, the S&P, the Scottish uh National Party, they're going to stay in control of Parliament and Labor had its worst ever result in in uh Scotland and is now tied with reform. Uh the Greens also did quite well in Scotland. So what does it all mean? Um, I think first we're seeing the the total collapse of the traditional two-party system. Yeah. Uh, and it's really becoming a five-party system. And you've got Labor and the Tories cratering. Uh, the Lib Dems are doing better. The Greens Reform UK, they're gaining ground. And then, um, in in, uh, in Scotland and, um, Wales, you also have like nationalist local parties. Um, second, you have voters just furious about the cost of living and a bunch of uh economic issues and labor has not made their lives better. They're getting punished for it. And there's lots of reports that labor campaigners were on the doors and they were talking to voters and the voters were like, "We hate Kier Starmer. Hate like visceral hate for that man." Um, which is interesting. So that gets us to the question of whether Starr will step aside or be deposed. Uh on Monday he gave a defiant speech taking responsibility for the loss but rejecting calls to resign. Let's listen to a bit of that.
>> The election results last week were tough.
Very tough. We lost some brilliant Labor representatives.
That hurts and it should hurt.
I get it. I feel it.
And I take responsibility. We are not just facing dangerous times but dangerous opponents.
Very dangerous opponents. This hurts not just because Labor has done badly but because if we don't get this right, our country will go down a very dark path.
>> Oh, it seems like he's um not feeling emotions but performing them.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So on Tuesday he also had the cabinet meeting. He was again defied. He told his team he's not going anywhere. But it's not entirely up to him. Uh there are reports that more than 90 Labor MPs want Star to step aside. That includes four ministers in his government. But crucially, Ben, uh no alternative candidate has gotten the support of 81 sitting labor MPs, which is what you need to formally challenge Starmer uh and trigger a leadership election. So Ben, I'll pause there. Your thoughts on these results? And then after that, do you want to make the case that it's time for uh Kier Starmmer to step aside? And I'll make the starmer should stay case.
>> Yeah.
>> Straw man just for fun.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I you I could probably argue it both ways, but I would definitely tilt in the direction I'm going to argue for. Um look, the problem here is that Labor won this massive majority. Um, in large part because the Tories had self- emilated as we covered meticulously on this podcast over a decade >> over the course of a decade with Brexit and Liz Truss and all the chaos, Boris Johnson having COVID parties, all the rest of it. Um, and so they get this huge mandate and have done [ __ ] all with it. U I mean that like what was their program like what what is Kier's >> they got jobs for Jeffrey Epstein friends.
>> Yeah. What is Kier Starmer's? Well, this is part of the problem is that their their theory, Starmer's theory of the case was I got to purge Jeremy Corbin, the left-wing previous leader of labor, and all of his supporters, and move this party to the center to make it an acceptable alternative to the Tories and win. And that worked, but the problem is they had no program for when they won.
And this is a country that has an identity crisis after Brexit. This is a country that is desperately in need of growth. This is a country that has xenophobic rising far-right politics, but desperately needs immigrants to sustain their care economy and their NHS. Um, so there's a lot of work to be done and and he's not offering any vision or any big ideas about what the UK is or what their economic future is.
Um, and and that's showing up in the polls, you know, and I I know some of these c uh you know, one of my someone I know, Payman Assad, actually won by 30 votes, but you know that 30 votes, it's tough, you know, and here I'll pivot to the case against Starmer. I I know what he said, which is that we can't be as chaotic as the Tories and change leaders, you know, uh, in the merry ground. We let me have five years to have the my full mandate. The problem with that is he has not shown any other gear. You know, you know when you see a politician, I mean, first of all, does he get it? No. He looks like he's reading talking points. He was told to say, "I feel it."
>> He did 10 speech preps where they said, "Show passion >> and he just can't really show emotion or passion." Not his thing.
>> He's like a well-meaning perhaps guy, but like he doesn't. But then beyond that, he hasn't shown that he has any new vision or any new program. It's all political positioning and tactic. You should I tack a little bit more to the right um as they've done on immigration, which doesn't make sense because if you're anti-immigrant, you'll just vote for reform. Should I tack to the left?
And and look, the Green Party's done a lot to differentiate itself and actually stand on principle. That's why they're winning voters. I just don't think he knows what he wants to do as prime minister other than state prime minister. And there there's a kind of I hate, you know, there's a kind of younger Joe Biden vibe here too of I just want to stick around. Um and and look, >> he's the guy that did August.
>> Yeah. Well, it's true. Um to be fair, but uh he's not wrong about Reform UK being scary. I mean, this is a xenophobic far-right party led by Nigel Farage, who should be a punchline, not a prime minister. But precisely because of that threat, I just don't see him rehabilitating labor to be able to compete with Nigel Farage. And so, and look, there's the biggest problem is there's not an alternative. Part of the problem is not alternative. Uh the biggest alternative is Andy Bernham, right? Um who's a very popular mayor, but who would have to come into the parliament to become prime minister. He was blocked from coming into parliament by Kier Starmer and his allies. Yep. And so they prevented there from being alternatives. Again, echoes of the Democratic party, how we've done primaries. And so I just don't I just don't know that Kier Starmer has showed us that he can govern any differently than he already has. And we see what the results are of how he governs. And I just therefore think that, and look, take some time if you're not ready today to find an alternative, you know, figure out a timeline to find one. Um, but I if they're running two three years from now into the next election with Cure Star, I I just think that's a recipe for disaster.
>> So, let me let me straw man the case for why Starmer should stay because I I actually think it's then we'll talk about our own personal views. I have a fairly strong view, but it is it's complicated. So, the case for why Starmer should stay is like, you know, like I said at the top, like this was not a landslide for reform or a total wipeout for labor. it was the political system really fracturing into this new reality of multi-party, not just a two-party system. And with I think we have to adjust our um expectations accordingly. Yes, Kier Starmer is unpopular. His polling is terrible.
There's all these reports about, you know, visceral hatred of him on the doorsteps. But every single leader in Europe is unpopular right now. Right. In April, Yuggov did a big tracking poll.
>> Kierst Armor is 44 points underwater.
French President Emanuel Macron is 49 points underwater. German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz is 52 points underwater.
Um even leaders I think that you and I think of as more deaf politically or at least more interesting are struggling.
Like Georgia Maloney is negative 22 uh her approval. Pedro Sanchez is 21 points underwater. So everyone's getting [ __ ] People are pissed everywhere. Um and then again like getting rid of Star is the easy part. Figuring out who comes next is much harder. Have you heard of uh West Streing, Angela Rainer, or Andy Burnham? Me neither. And those are the leading candidates to replace this guy, right? And and like if West Streeting wants to run, he needs to man up and do it. No one's no one's manned up yet. And so to your point, Ben, like about Starmer and his um what do you want to do with the job? I I don't get the sense from anybody really what they want to do within labor. Like it's it's not about who comes next, it's about what comes next. Like and what are you going to do with the mandate? And like no one's laying out an alternative vision. I know that's complicated when you're still in government. Um, but no one's done it yet. And then in that speech, we didn't play all of it, but like Starmer did try to lay out a bit of a path forward. He has like more direct intervention in the economy. He talks about like nationalizing steel plants, uh, more partnership with the EU. He takes a more head-on fight with Nigel Farage. He blames the Iran war for a lot of his troubles. Speaking of which, you know, the one thing this will do is uh it will mean that Starmer helps Nigel Farage deliver on his big election promise. Uh let's watch a clip of Farage ranting away after the election had already happened about the results.
>> We fought this election campaign on a big national slogan. You might remember it. It said vote reform and >> I tell you what, he'll be gone by the middle of the summer. the most unpatriotic, worst, least prepared prime minister we've ever seen in this country. And we will have seen the back of him. We are directly taking votes from patriotic old Labor in areas that frankly they've been pretty much able to take for granted since the end of World War I. It all goes to show that over the course of the last two years since we made that breakthrough in the general election, we have professionalized the party. Uh, we've done it at a very, very rapid rate.
>> Is it possible to have a phone call with your friend Donald Trump to maybe end this war in Iran? That would help prices over here.
>> I think the war in Iran's very close to it.
>> I mean, heroin is just not my thing. I I >> first of all, way better backdrop for them. Also, I love the guys who have the big like broaches like they just won like a ribbon and like a horse jumping competition. But anyway, so if Star goes, he he, you know, delivers for Farage. And I think that there's no way this ends with just just a leadership election. There will be intense pressure to call for an early general election.
That'll come at the worst time possible for labor. It'll rattle the bond markets. It'll create a permanent economic cost. And so I think, you know, the only path forward, deliver on the mandate voters gave Star, uh fight it out. Also, uh very awkward that uh the king's speech it I think it's the day this episode comes out this Wednesday, and that's where the prime minister lays out his legislative agenda. So, it's kind of a crazy time to make a change, but uh that that's the case for Star.
>> Yeah, I get the case being that part of what like we made fun of the Tories for, you know, musical chairs, prime ministers, and that's suboptimal. Um, first of all, Nigel Farage, he's like a walking talking pack of marble reds, you know, that voice is so funny. Um, but I I I think that they're not easy answers to these problems. I'd say a couple things though. First of all, yes, all those people are underwater, but you notice who's less underwater, Pedro Sanchez and Georgia Maloney. Wildly different politically, right? Uh Melon's on the right, >> Sanchez on the left, >> but they believe things like squishy centrism that Mcronone and Starmer embody literally and and Mertz is a little bit more to the right, but like is not what anyone's looking for. They want to know that we are dealing in in this country but also in the UK. See like existential problems, you know, like the economy doesn't work anymore.
Capitalism doesn't work anymore. The world doesn't work anymore. And this idea that you're just going to tinker and a little bit of a social program here and a little bit of a tough on immigrant rhetoric here and, you know, a tiny bit of money for the NHS, the National Health Service, like that that approach that starmerism is just not what people want.
>> Yeah. And it's also creating problems in that there's not like a clear faction that wants to get rid of him. It's not like the left of the Labor Party is all like get rid of Star. It's just like everyone kind of just not that into him.
>> Yeah. Because nobody really knows what, you know, what he is and what he stands for and and you know I I don't I'd have to go deeper on what the big what big ideas they could have. Um what is an actual >> Here's one. Brexit was bad. That's what you read my mind. It's like why not just say you know what like this economy has been totally [ __ ] just like was predictable it would be by Brexit. We have lost our place in the world stage cuz we're kind of an orphan now getting beat up by Donald Trump. Like we should go back into the EU, right? Like that's going to be better for our geopolitics and our economy. Uh it'll be good for growth because we have more markets.
Like something on that scale. The speech the speech hints at more more with Europe more something like it like hints at getting back hints at undoing Brexit but then his team was briefing no no no no no we didn't really mean that he just wants more partnership with Europe or something like that it's like pick a side >> pick a side and show people that you believe in something and you know what god forbid maybe you lose but at least you tried to do something you cared about you know and and I think that that's what's missing now you know Angela Rener would have normally been the leftwing candidate she remember had these tax issues mortgage scandals at here like you know nothing >> and also like nothing compared to Nigel Farage. I mean it just came out that he took like $5 million from some crypto billionaire for some reason. He says it was for security but like there's no like the me the the British media >> treats him kind of like a fun person to book on shows and be a talking head. Not like a serious guy who could be prime minister prime minister. Yeah. I mean, Zack Palansky, the the late the Green Party, um, you know, has made real inroads because there's a kind of a mumani dust that, you know, uh, they have over there, but it's cuz like people actually know what the Greens believe in, you know, and and actually on the centism side, well, then you have the Lib Dems like Labor is just kind of homeless now. Like it what is it, you know? And I think Starmer is not the one, he doesn't seem to be, and he could prove me wrong, but uh, he doesn't seem to have the answer to that question.
Yeah, I think uh Zack Palansky really screwed up recently and didn't seem to take seriously enough some very serious incidents of anti-semitism that have happened in the UK. So I I don't know what that means for his future. Like I I'm with you.
Like >> he's Jewish though. So >> I know that's the weird part about all this. I mean the Star speech I watched the whole thing then then he did a little press conference. It was just it seemed it seems so weak. Like it it was like someone was like tried to you know turn him up 20%. and he kept he had this refrain where he kept being like and that's the labor way or like that's the labor choice and it just it just it didn't work. Um he also, you know, he started to blame Iran for a lot of the UK's problems. I think that's well it's probably accurate LNG.
>> Yeah, >> it's useful but I don't know. I like I think I think no one thinks that Kier Armor is going to be leading the Labor Party into the next election and the question is just like when do you get rid of them?
>> Yeah. Yeah. That to me is the question.
Maybe take your time if you make your choice. Don't grab a labor Liz Truss.
But I I the clock is ticking.
>> They got to start a process. They they can't do what Biden did with Harris and just the Democratic party did and just seem to anoint someone. They need a process. I don't know how long that is going to have to take, but they they're going to have to have one. Um to your Biden point, uh I know this is unfair and silly and like an American thing, but I think Starmer said something about this being a fight for the soul of the country, and I was like, "Oo, just screamed Biden." Yeah. Look, I think he's a dead man walking politically. I think he was the right guy to get them through that election. He was not the right guy for this moment just because once you have a negative 50 approval rating, I don't know how you fix that.
Um, whoever comes next is probably [ __ ] as well or like staunch the bleeding. I don't know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We beat Medicare.
>> We beat the scary thing there there all these trends we're watching of the rise of the far right in in the UK, in France, in Germany, and we have the French presidential election coming up in 2027. The Germans have a bunch of elections coming up. You can see like AFD governors in parts of Germany. It's just like the future for the far right in Europe is bright. Yeah.
>> Which is dark for us.
>> Yeah. It's never a good mix. Farright politics in Europe.
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Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. Terms and conditions apply. Uh okay. So, the war in Iran looming all over all of this. Uh it remains a total mess. Um and depending on who you ask, Ben, the war with Iran could be over or not. Here's a little super cut that that tells the story.
>> Operation Epic Fury is concluded. We achieved the objectives of that operation.
>> Was it accurate to say you think the combat operations are over and done? But there may >> No, I didn't say that. I said they are they are defeated, but that doesn't mean they're done.
>> Is the war with Iran over? And if it isn't, who will decide when it is?
>> I think it accomplished a great deal, but it's not over because there's still nuclear material. So clear as day. Uh that was Marco Rubio, Trump and then Israeli Prime Minister BB Netanyahu for those of you lucky enough to not just automatically recognize their voices. So let's try to walk you guys through the last week in the disaster that it was.
And then we'll talk about it. So first Trump announced uh Project Freedom. That was this like PR [ __ ] plan to guide ships through the straight of Hormuz.
>> That mission lasted I think about 36 hours uh until Trump pulled the plug on it. Uh NBC News later reported that the Saudis and the Kuwaitis were surprised by the plan. and they were mad about it and they pressured the US to pull the plug because they thought it could unravel the ceasefire and peace talks.
Um then we had a bunch of breaking news and sirens from reporters uh quoting senior White House officials saying the US and Iran were very close to making a deal. That of course was [ __ ] Uh there's still no deal and according to the Financial Times, the two sides were very far apart. Trump's demands were a 20-year moratorum on Iran's nuclear enrichment program. Uh transferring the stockpile of uranium enriched uh to close to the 60% enriched stockpile that the so-called dust out of the country and then dismantling their three main nuclear sites. And the Iranian response I think loosely translates to get [ __ ] It was um end the war on all fronts, have Iranian management of the trade of Hormuz going forward, suspension of sanctions. Uh and then they actually gave a little ground on their um enriched uranium stockpile.
They said they'd chip half of it out, but like dilute the rest, but they gave Trump a little something. Um, here's how President Trump uh took their response.
Let's watch.
>> For the time being, the ceasefire remains in place.
>> It It's unbelievably weak. I would say I would call it the weakest right now.
After reading the piece of garbage, they sent us I didn't even finish reading it.
They said, "I'm not going to waste my time reading it." I would say it's one of the weakest right now. It's on life support. They understand these are all medical people and Dr. Oz life support is not a good thing. Do you agree?
>> Very prognostic.
>> I would say the ceasefire is on massive life support where the doctor walks in and says, "Sir, your loved one has approximately a 1% chance of living >> agree to allow the removal of all their enrichment."
>> Yeah. Well, they did that two days ago.
They didn't Okay. They did two days ago.
They said, "You're going to have to take it." We were going to go with them, but they changed their mind because they didn't put it in the paper. So, when they sent us this document that we waited 4 days for, that should have taken 10 minutes to do it. Look, very simple. We get that, they guarantee no nuclear weapons for a very long period of time, and a couple of other minor things, but they just can't get there.
They think that, well, I'll get tired of this or I'll get bored or I'll have some pressure, but there's no pressure. No pressure at all.
>> I I love that like the sir construct for a story that he's totally making up >> now. And now is how the doctor talks to you in like the ER when your mom's >> there and some random some random people have to stand there the whole time.
>> There's one lady Ben who literally she was someone told her to smile and she did this the whole time. She Anyway, uh things are going good. Things are going great.
>> First of all, I'm just going to keep coming back to this because we have to uh because our media doesn't do it enough. Uh this is why we have to support independent progressive media.
>> They they'll say things like, "Well, they're already defeated at what? Like soccer. Like the the regime is in place.
They have all the nuclear material. They control the street of Horus. Like they're not defeated. Like let's just like not even let him just keep saying something that isn't true because he wants to repeat it until it becomes true." Um, the fact that the Iranians aren't even offering the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal terms, shows you that they believe that they have all this leverage, like they control the straight of Formuz. They've got and he when the way he talks about I can wait here all day. Well, >> I'm not bored. I want to person outside who's paying [ __ ] $7 a gallon for gas, right? Tell that to the people in the UK who have shortages or the people in South Korea who have shortages or people in Bangladesh who, you know, have to ration energy. Like everybody is suffering and Donald Trump's just sitting there on his fat ass being like, "Oh, I got all the time in the world."
Well, well, and then he acts like >> he asked about his red line for the negotiations. He's like, "I don't know.
We're going to think about it on the flight to China."
>> Yeah. Yeah. And here's here's the thing.
Like I I've often again the they will they will be willing to ship that stockpile out because they know that's not their nuclear program. That's just the product of their nuclear program.
And so I just don't get why these you know he needs to end the war. He needs to show he got something. I just don't get why he doesn't make a deal where it's like they got to open the straight of Hormuz and they're going to ship out their stockpile and they're going to get some sanctions relief and a bunch of money because that's how this thing ends. and and otherwise it's like a frozen conflict but it's a frozen conflict where the straight of horm is closed you know and the global economy will collapse within a matter of months if that's the case >> the cost is unbelievable at this point the Pentagon says the direct cost is $29 billion now [ __ ] double that right like it's it's >> they asked for 200 billion so I don't know what >> the real number is way more oil prices are still are way up so JP Morgan said its analysts think that the oil prices will remain over $100 a barrel through this here. That's bad. Um, a Brown University study found that as of last week, American consumers had paid an extra $35 billion in gas and diesel costs since the war began. That's about uh $268 per household. Jet fuel prices are up 70%. Fertilizer prices are up 30%. By the way, us in California, Ben, we get especially screwed. Yes, because we're more dependent on Middle Eastern oil than other states. Um, and then the the Financial Times was looking at the total cost of the war and they found that a reasonable estimate based on the Fed's own models is that the war is going to cost the economy $200 billion and a loss of a million jobs in the US for like a bunch of factors including uh interest rates. And uh the Fed's like monthly gauge of global supply chain pressures is now at the highest level since the pandemic. So like everything the the the economy is like filling like a balloon and something is going to pop very soon. and he's like, I'm I'm not bored. I don't care.
>> That's the thing. And and because everybody can feel it, right? So, there's already this discordance between, you know, the quote unquote markets and the lived reality of everybody that has to pay for anything on Earth. Um, and the shortages that are coming. And I guess he thinks that when the bubble bursts, he'll just blame Barack Obama or Joe Biden or something.
But like, this is one where everybody knows that things were one way and then this war happened and they're another way. And I I think it's going to take the rest of the world, you know, Xihinping in the ne next couple days, all these Europeans, they're going to have to go to Trump and be like, "Look, man." And the Iranians for that matter, and just be like, just take the minimalist deal you can agree to. Trump, his his willingness to spin anything uh should allow him to just get the hell out of this thing. I mean, just he's going to say he defeated them anyway.
his his morons who watch Fox all day and listen to like Mark Levan will swallow that >> 70% of the country will think this is a mistake. They already think it's a mistake.
>> Look. Yeah. And the right-wingers, the the FDD think tanks and stuff like they'll hate it, but eventually they'll shut up. Like the Hugh Hewitts, you know, fluffers and propagandists like they they will hate this deal. They're saying as much. But yes, I think that's where he's going to end up. And also man, there's been all these reports about um the way the war is kind of metastasizing and spreading across the Middle East. So the Wall Street Journal reported that the United Arab Emirates, UAE, had been carrying out military strikes on Iran directly. They were a direct combatant in the war. They hit a refinery back in April, for example.
They had been targeted by, you know, 2,800 missiles and drones from Iran. So it was response to that, but still we didn't know that. Um there was also a Reuters report today that Saudi Arabia carried out a bunch of secret air strikes during the war too. So again, this wasn't just the US and Israel. It was a bunch of countries bombing Iran.
And then the Journal had this wild story about how Israel built a base in the middle of the Iraqi desert to support the military operation in Iran. And then uh I think it was like search and rescue and some sort of air force logistics.
Then the story says that at one point the Iraqi military tried to investigate what was going on there because I'm like, you know, sheep herder tipped them off to it and the idea fired on them a couple times and killed two Iraqi soldiers and like just nobody said >> what is their basis for being there?
It's not their territory. Like I think that's even beyond Mike Huckabe's definition of Israel which ends somewhere around the Euphrates.
>> Ends in Kansas.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, look, first of all, on the regional side, we just again, we have no idea the damage that's been done to our bases, to our facilities, to these Gulf countries. We, you know, people still can't like post pictures of Dubai. Um, the Amiradis are the biggest losers or I don't know, there are a lot of losers, but they're one of the biggest losers in this war.
First, they threw all their chips in with the Abraham Accords, with Israel, with this idea that we're going to, you know, form a united front and stand up to the Iranians. And here they are. They just got, you know, showered with drones and their Dubai model got wrecked and, you know, they're they're they're carrying out air strikes and and look, if you're feeling sorry for them, they fund the RSF in Sudan that is like committing war crimes on on a regular basis. Um, but all this is going to I'm very interested to see how the backstory of all these things comes out in addition to the damage assessments. One thing in particular that base in Iraq clearly seemed tied and it was reported to the Kurds, right? To the idea that the Israelis wanted to use the Iranian and Iraqi Kurds to be a ground force to do things inside of Iran. I think what probably happened there is, you know, the Kurds have partnered with Israel in the past, some Kurds, not all Kurds. Um, and they were probably waiting to see like, okay, uh, can Iran take this punch? We kill the Supreme Leader and drop all these bombs and the regime, lo and behold, is not only still standing, they're capable of closing the straight of Hormuz. And it seems like the Kurds were like, "Thanks, but no thanks. We're not like going to war against the regime." I think the Kurdish play was if the regime collapses, you know, maybe we'll or the regime is like literally on its last legs, maybe we'll get involved here. But it should be pointed out that failed. Like the Israeli pitch as reported in the New York Times in the situation room was the Kurds are going to rise up. There's going to be all these ground forces on our side. Resa Palavi, the son of the Sha is going to come in. None of those things happened.
And we never hold BB Nao accountable, not just for the fact that he convinced Trump to do this stupid [ __ ] thing, but that his analysis he was either lying or he was completely wrong that the regime would fall, that the Kurds would rise up, that the Iranians would rise up, that Resa Pali was somehow a credible leader of Iran.
>> Do you see Trump like directly bitching about the Kurds? He was like, "We gave them weapons and they just stole them and they didn't do it." He was like complaining about it like a covert action program >> and it's such bull. First of all, like the it's such bold. The Kurds have done so much. You know, they they were the ground force against ISIS for the United States in the Obama years and under Trump. You know, they were on our side in the Iraq war. Like this idea that they're obligated to be our to fight all of our wars and they never get what they want, which is a state, right? Um and for reasons that I can understand given the complexity of that. But >> why would they [ __ ] fight our war?
>> It's crazy. And also him just like crying about a clear like covert action program in a lot of his press. It's funny. Also that the New York Times just posted a piece >> uh it's a new like leaked assessment of uh the impact of the war in Iran. Uh most alarming to some senior officials is evidence that Iran has restored operational access to 30 of the 33 missile sites it maintains along the trade of war moose.
>> I bet Pete Hexa told me that they were destroyed >> which could threaten American Dan and oil tankers. Iran still feels about 70% of its mobile launchers across the country and has retained roughly 70% of its pre-war missile stockpile. Uh that is bad news. So they got a lot a lot of kit left to fire at us and a lot of ways to do it. Um also Ben, do you see that DoD wants to apparently rename the Iran war operation sledgehammer if it restarts? And they're thinking that that means they get to restart the 60-day war powers clock so they can just do another end run around Congress by giving it a new name.
>> Well, that's what little Marco is doing when he's like epic fury's over. I mean, they think that a war is like the name that you give to something and not hostilities that you have with the country. I mean, I would argue >> that we've been at war with Iran since at least the so-called 12-day war.
>> 1947. What was the Tom Cotton timeline?
>> Oh, that was crazy.
79. But I mean, remember the 12-day war?
Like, this has all been one war. Uh, I mean, that's the point. These guys >> count on our attention spans being so destroyed by social media and technology that we like forget that we're still in a war or something because as a new name, what what are we children? I mean, >> just rebranding. It's like uh it's like uh restaurants that close down and reopen in the same spot in LA every six months. It's just a new name.
>> My favorite taco place uh in Venice, Teddy's Red Tacos. Um it it it it suddenly suddenly was different different name and I was terrified but the menu is exactly the same. Kind of like the Iran war except the tacos are good.
>> Same same spot. Uh all right you mentioned Netanyahu. Um Trump the IRGC.
They're not the only arsonists in this conflict. We also have BB Netanyahu. He was on CBS's 60 Minutes over the weekend. Um, as Netanyahu watchers know, Netanyahu avoids speaking with Israeli journalists because they are actually knowledgeable about all of his failings uh and failures and ask him about them.
And so he instead launderers his message through the US media who tend to be softer than a you know baby skin uh and easily manipulated by him. And uh unfortunately the new and improved 60 Minutes under Barry Weiss's leadership was no exception. Um, I want to play uh one example that just annoyed the [ __ ] out of me, Ben. And then we'll talk about some more substantive stuff. So, this is um CBS's Major Garrett, who by the way is a nice guy. He's a good reporter. Uh, not knocking him as a human, but this was not his finest hour or finest interview, I don't think. And it sounds like Weiss steered the interview to him as opposed to Leslie Saul. It probably would have been a little rougher.
>> But, by the way, Major, as you know, is capable of asking tough questions. So, that tells you a lot about Barry Weiss's leadership. I I I to give Major even further past, although I would prefer people didn't go along with Barry Weiss.
Like I've seen Major Garrett do tough interviews. So this is probably a direction from my eyes.
>> Yeah, it's very weird. So here's a question. Here's part of a question he asked about Israeli intelligence that I thought was instructive.
>> Mr. Prime Minister, the capabilities of Israeli intelligence within Iran allowed you to pinpoint the location of Supreme Leader and others.
That is a kind of granular intelligence that is borderline miraculous in the modern world. Why wasn't it sufficient to also ferment a revolution?
>> So Ben, the >> he was in his office.
>> The air strike that killed his [ __ ] office.
>> It was on his house.
>> Like like >> he was working above ground.
>> The home office. Sorry.
>> On his own house.
>> So that would like be a miraculous intelligence to bomb the White House to kill Trump or or drone, you know, the Gold's gym in Venice to take out RFK Jr.
The heavy breathing was great. Mr. Prime Minister, the granularity of that intelligence. This is so remarkable.
>> It's like bomb in the poodle room.
>> You're not watching like [ __ ] Munich here. We're talking about a guy, an 86-y old man who was killed in his house.
>> It's crazy.
>> And look, I like like this is a bigger deal. I mean, then I I know that it gets online attention, but I mean it, you know, that doesn't count for anything these days. I mean, this is 60 Minutes.
This is CBS News. This is like literally like the Cadillac of American journalism, right? And it gets purchased by David Ellison whose kind of qualification for running anything is that his father is Larry Ellison and he went to like USC film school and wants to play with the movies. Um, and they're super pro-Israel and super pro Trump.
And so he hands the keys of 60 Minutes and CBS News to Barry Weiss, whose only qualification is running a blog where she tells rich billionaires that they're wonderful, Israel's wonderful, and DEI is bad. And essentially the the the feels you get when you watch Bill Maher are all right. And we're going to bring those feelings over to CBS News. And then you have the prime minister of a country that literally convinced the president of United States to do the dumbest thing since the Iraq war in launching an attack on a country. None of the things that Netanyahu said were going to happen happened. We're in an economic catastrophe. Major Garrett and CBS News's own viewers are like not being able to afford their gas. And he's sitting on there like blowing smoke up BB's butt about how wonderful and granular the intelligence is. What is going on here? This is not your job.
>> This is Putin level propaganda. I mean, >> also CBS didn't ask about Netanyahu's responsibility for October 7th until an hour and 7 minutes into the conversation. It feels like that'd be something that'd be front and center.
And then he just brushed it off. Um, there was lots of talk about Hamas violating the ceasefire in Gaza. There was none no conversation about or questions about Israel violating the ceasefire as far as I could tell. You had Netanyahu vomiting out the same talking points about all the ways the IDF avoids civilian casualties and texts people and it's like all the same [ __ ] we heard two years ago. Nobody believes and then we watch like 70,000 people get slaughtered and it's just demonstrabably false and just he didn't get he didn't get pushed on any of it. And also you know like Trump sued CBS right for editing out a 60 Minutes interview like a Kla Harris answer. CBS cut from the broadcast version Netanyahu saying we'll play this clip in a minute. He was asked about um social media and you know NB blames uh social media for all of Israel's woes and he said basically says like we're not going to fight the battle on social media but that got cut out and I wonder why. They also cut Netanyahu saying that Americans turning against Israel also hate America again. Like why? It seems like those are things that um are relevant for American viewers.
And so I like the whole thing, you're right, it it it's frustrating because the debate like the Barry Weiss's bad Twitter debate is like kind of boring and reductive and like I'm not interested in it. But like I do think like when there's a a product like this that shows the fruits of that labor, it's worth kind of like highlighting the the harm it did to us as viewers who are trying to get information. It's much bigger than just the kind of Barry Weiss discourse because it it's about the fact that the the premium brand in American journalism 60 minutes like when it comes to Israel I it's like it makes RT look like a hard-hitting news source you know um they it is and the problem with it is it's not like there's a significant market for this like the problem I mean to be specific and and complaint here is they constantly come back to this idea that that social media is bad and that's why people are turning against Israel.
No, it's what people are seeing on social media, right? There's another story. Nick Kristoff had a powerful story in the Times about the sexual assault of Palestinian prisoners Monday.
Sorry.
>> And all these people are on, you know, this is outrageous. How could the Times print this?
>> As if the problem is the story and not the underlying conduct that the story is about. Well, there's some question about the veracity of some of the sourcing, but still like >> there's a lot of well doumented evidence of rape and sexual assault of Palestinians in Israeli prisons. This is not the first this was not the first coverage of this.
>> I I I look this is I've been to this rodeo. Um what you have is let's say there's a hundred instances and this is not that story but this is the hypothetical. Let's say there are 100 instances of sexual assault and 97 of them are true, but you they find the three that have some holes in the story and they're like this whole thing is is a liable, you know, >> or you know the or that you know they go after you know sort of one of the victims who's you know doesn't have >> his cousin is in Hamas or something. I mean but this this Major Garrett thing if if Americans want to know um I had this long conversation with John Stewart today. I did his podcast and we had a pretty interesting conversation about why do we keep doing these dumb things and we talked about all the reasons but one of the reasons why is that we don't have a media that tells us the truth you know like like it's so it makes it so much easier to give weapons to Israel or to go to war in Iran if we don't have media that will like 60 Minutes viewers those should be some of the more informed people in the country that can't be told the truth about what's happening.
>> Yeah. Um, for the word for the record, I think that Hamas raped and sexually assaulted victims on October 7th and that uh Palestinians are being raped and sexually assaulted in uh Israeli prisons. And both are true and I I wish there was like less attacking of reporters for talking about these things and more concerned like you said about the underlying issue.
>> Um, two more clips we want to play from this. So the first is Netanyahu saying basically it's time for Israel to wean itself off of US military support. Let's watch that. I want to draw down to zero the American financial support, the financial component of the military cooperation that we have. We've come of age. We have a booming economy after 3 years of war. You know, our currency is the strongest it's ever been in the last 50 years, maybe more. We have a lot of talent here, which we share with our American friends, and we're going to share it with our Arab friends, too. And I uh I think that it's time that we weaned ourselves from the remaining uh military support and go from aid to partnership.
>> And then uh let's listen to the clip of him blaming Israel's image problems at social media and then talk about both them.
>> The proportion of civilian casualties, non-combatants to combatants is one of the lowest in the history of modern urban warfare. So Israel is given a bum wrap. I'll tell you what happened. We have several countries that basically manipulated social media with bot farms with fake addresses to break the American uh sympathy to Israel to break the American Israeli alliance because they think it's in their interests and they do it in a clever way.
>> So that on the military support part like I mean for first of all I'll just I'll believe it when I see it, you know, and also he cites like the $3.8 8 billion a year stat. That's just the beginning of the support that US provides Israel. Like there's always supplemental funding requests, emergency Iron Dome transfers, etc. Then there's the direct support when the US is like literally shooting down, you know, missiles.
>> How much did we just spend on that?
>> Right. So again, like I I just don't believe like Ben Shapiro has been saying this kind of thing to like I I just don't believe it. Like I'd like to see it happen. I just don't believe it's going to happen. And then the social media stuff though, this is like it's delusional and worrisome on a couple different levels. Like the suggestion is always that those of us who are worried about civilian casualties or the Palestinian people, especially in Gaza, we're just stupid rubes getting manipulated by algorithms who were not couldn't possibly just be like sincerely horrified by day after day of these like horrifying images of like children suffering in Gaza, right? Do you feel there's like there's an eighth front in the war on [ __ ] social media now?
Like first of all, Israel is famously active on social media.
>> Oh yeah, I've been on the receiving end of it.
>> Yeah, there was reports that they're paying influencers like $7,000 to post positive stuff about Israel. Like what does this mean? It's kind of ominous. I don't think social media is a war.
>> Well, first of all, on the military stuff, I mean, what that tells you is he's knows he's losing the political argument in the United States. Um but importantly that ship has sailed they're not going to get further financing. Now what they do is a couple there are a couple of questions remain one that you highlighted which is whenever they're in a war which is seemingly all the time there are these supplemental requests that Apac pushes hard and so it's not in the 10-year memor understanding where it's like they get a set amount every year. They've gotten way more than that in, you know, quote unquote emergency situations. But beyond that, the debate has shifted so much that last week or maybe two weeks ago, 40 Democratic senators voted against arms sales to Israel. This is the next front. The financing thing is is over, I think, and that he's just acknowledging that. Um, you've got 40 Democrats, including everyone who might run for president, voting against even selling them weapons, which I think is the right position. And just to highlight, one of those systems that was being sold to the Israelis was bulldozers.
>> Armed armored bulldozers.
>> What do you need armored bulldozers for?
You need armored bulldozers to ethnically cleanse southern Lebanon or to demolish whatever remaining structure exists in Gaza. Like that's that that's where this is moving and people should be aware of that. They're going to want to say, "Okay, fine. We don't need the financing." They're still going to want to be able to buy all the weapons.
>> The partnership is some real uh weasel language. Like what does that mean exactly? It means we sell them whatever they want. And the thing is, if they're committing war crimes, as they have, we shouldn't be selling them anything. You shouldn't be providing weapons either financed by the American taxpayer or sold. Full stop. The social media thing is is rich and ominous. It's rich because the Israelis have done exactly what he says for a long time. They've got troll farms. They've got paid influencers. They're not new to this game. They're they're not just these, you know, people that, oh, we just use social media to like post government statements. And there's some other governments. I'm sure he's talking about like Qatar or something. They always, you know, hype this. I mean, this if if you have a Instagram account, you know that like like most of the content you get related to Gaza is not like state sponsored. You can see that a mile away.
It's like somebody you know like reposting a video. And by the way, you don't even need to to to aggregate whether this or that video is accurate.
You can look at just a picture of Gaza and it's destroyed. flattened, right?
It's completely flattened. Um, now going forward, I think what is kind of worrisome, it ties into the conversation we just had about Barry Weiss because lo and behold, Larry Ellison has also bought Tik Tok, >> right? And so >> that's where the fight's going.
>> I'm I'm less worried about, sure, they can pay all the influencers they want.
It doesn't really make a difference. Um, just look at Ben Shapiro's audience. The problem is if they start to leverage their friends who bought Tik Tok or you know Elon Musk and X although Elon seems pretty committed to his version of free speech which is you know kind of a cesspool but >> and start manipulating the algorithm start shadowbanning accounts start censoring content >> that's I think where this is going and that's pretty scary.
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Sundays fordogs.com/world50 or use code world50 at checkout. All right, so let's talk about China.
Speaking of censoring, um Trump's on his way to China for this big summit meeting. He was supposed to go to Beijing in late March. Uh the trip got delayed because Trump wanted to wrap up the whole war with Iran thing. So glad we got that all handled. Um, he arrives in Beijing Wednesday night. There's a welcome ceremony Thursday morning.
There's a one-on-one with Shei. There's a tour of the Temple of Heaven, which is this like amazing temple complex. Uh, dates back to the Ming dynasty. I think it was built in like 1420. Uh, then he attends uh a state banquet Thursday evening. Then he has tea and lunch with Shei again on Friday and then he goes home. It's a lot of meetings. Um, so let's just speculate on what they want out of this trip, Ben. So for Trump, first and foremost, he wants to feel like uh the biggest boy on the biggest stage uh and special and the pomp and circumstance. Um then I think he wants a trade deal or something he can sell back home as having some sort of economic benefit. Third, I'm sure he would enjoy some help reopening the straight hormuz or getting Iran to chill out. We could talk about what that might entail. And then fourth, I think we should just always assume that there's a big fat corruption bucket sitting there that we'll learn about down the road someday, whether it's crypto or, you know, >> Don Jun invested in Chinese robots.
>> Chinese drones. Yeah, Chinese robotics company CEO Don Jr. Um, for she uh Xiaping, I would imagine he wants to get rid of US tariffs on stuff. He wants to show the world that he can manipulate Trump and that he is actually as strong, if not the, you know, stronger party.
Um, I bet he'll try to ring some concessions out of Trump on Taiwan. Uh, maybe try to get rid of some restrictions on AI chips. Um, who knows?
So, Trump on this trip is going to be flanked by a bunch of American CEOs.
Elon Musk will be there. Tim Cook will be there. Remember when they almost briefed Elon Musk on the secret China war plan?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It was a good idea or great idea. Yeah.
>> Here's Trump talking about the China trip from Monday uh in the Oval Office.
>> He's a great gentleman. I find him to be an amazing an amazing man.
And when I say that, the press always says, "Oh, that's terrible that he called him." You know, he runs 1.4 billion people with a pretty iron fist.
He's uh he loves his country. I can tell you that. President, I look forward to being there. And if he felt anything, we wouldn't we wouldn't be doing it. But uh a lot of good things can happen. Now, we'll be talking about I mean, he'll bring up Taiwan, I think, more than I will. I have a great relationship with President Xi.
We're doing a lot of business, but it's smart business. We used to be uh taken advantage of for years with our previous presidents and now we're doing great with China. We make a lot of money with China. I have a great relationship with with President Xi. And I think you can see that with the fact that in Hormuz, they get a big percentage, 40% of their oil from Harm. There's been no ships coming in, no nasty ships coming in that we end up in skirmishes with. There's been He'd like to see it get done. He doesn't want to see I'll tell you what.
Look, I respect him a lot and hopefully he respects me. He didn't respect our previous government. That I can tell you.
>> All those clips are from an event rolling out from moms.gov. These poor women had to stand there >> just watching.
>> It's up there with the the Door Dash lady. He started yelling at trans athletes or something.
>> Like, do you like transports? She's like, I'm just here for the tip.
>> I mean, this is completely insane.
>> What What do you think? What do you think? What's the What's on the agenda for the meeting? Like, what's the best case you think in terms of an accomplishment, a deliverable?
>> Don Junior gets a robotics.
>> There's a deliberal for him and us. For real though, >> here here's what I would So, here first of all, there's a problem, which is normally these are huge summits. They usually happen like every two years. You spend two or three days. You know, we use this for instance in Obama to come up with a bilateral agreement on reducing carbon emissions. It became the Paris agreement. You know, like we worked on that for a year. So, first of all, the fact that there's a war in Iran and Hormuz is still closed for business.
Um, means that they're going to spend a big chunk of time just talking about that. And we're Trump is probably going to be asking the Chinese to pressure the Iranians to open the straight and make a deal. Chinese going to be pressuring us to, you know, just wrap this thing up.
>> I was talking to an Iran expert friend of both of ours who suspects that the Taiwan conversation, well, the China the Iran conversation will be like, "Mr. President, how do you expect me to help you with the Iranians and to not sell my good friends in Iran weapons when you're selling weapons to Taiwan and giving them all this help?" Wink wink.
very good at what aboutism and by the way we get to do what you did to Iran and Taiwan. Um I think and and yeah, Trump may want, you know, I think for him a win is like, you know, they agree to buy a bunch of soybeans or something, right? You know, like he can just say he loves these deals where it's like the Chinese said they're going to spend x amount of money on American products that by the way they're probably going to buy anyway or something, you know, and and the Chinese will extract some concessions >> or they'll just lie about it >> or they'll lie about it as everybody's done. I mean I mean if you add up the money people claim that they're going to spend and these photo ops Trump it's like trillions of dollars and none of it's here. Um >> I would here's what I would be doing. Um on Taiwan what you want to do is you want to create like some diplomatic track that just kind of puts this thing on a back burner and like slow rolls it.
You know I don't think Trump is deaf enough to do that. The Chinese will say don't sell them arms. will say don't conduct military exercises and most likely it's just going to be what it is.
>> Well, interestingly, there's been some big headlines announcements of arm sales to Taiwan, but I didn't realize that there those have been very slow on getting delivered. There's like a 20 billion backlog on the delivery of US arms to Taiwan. So, that's kind of the rub there if you're >> Yeah. Well, and what's notable about that is that the Congress votes for these things and then the executive branch has to deliver them and they're probably slow rolling them to create positive atmosphere she if in terms of what I think they should be doing and I'm not sure they're going to do is they should be talking about artificial intelligence because we are the two AI superpowers. We have all these frontier companies like Anthropic and OpenAI and Microsoft, Google etc. they have uh their own AI models that like and here we should say this is actually kind of a I don't want to say a failure of the B administration but there was this idea that we're going to put all these restrictions in place and export controls and sanctions and whatever the Chinese figured out how to build the technology anyway >> yeah we slowed that we didn't stop them >> yeah and so the the the whether who's ahead you know someone might be ahead by six months it almost doesn't matter because Chinese have AI we have AI in normal times s we would be sitting down and saying let's negotiate some norms and some guardrails around this new technology before it's fully deployed out in the world. We want to make sure that nuclear weapons and command and control systems have human beings in the loop. We want to make sure that job displacement is cushioned by testing models. We have huge cyber sec, you know, you saw this um incident with uh Mythos, the next generation of anthropics AI model that when they, you know, shared it with some of their customers, it was like nobody was ready to deal with this. It could literally launch a cyber attack and shut down, >> you know, the the power grid of the country, you know, >> do you see the time story about how AI bots were telling these scientists how to make biological weapons?
>> Exactly. Biological, you know, here's the recipe for biological weapons.
Here's, you know, another pandemic strain, right? And so what should be happening is we should be getting off this idea that there's some like AI race like foot race and whoever wins gets the technology. No, everybody's going to get this technology. Um we should be putting strict guard rails starting with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. U dealing with job displacement, dealing with cyber security risks. Um the Chinese aren't going to want to negotiate around disinformation or information operations, but that's part of this. I just don't think Trump's going to do that. If anything, he's gone the other direction. Biden is building export controls. Trump is, for whatever reason, probably some corrupt reason, is greasing the skid so Jensen Wong and Nvidia can sell advanced semiconductors to the Chinese. So the Chinese would love that. I'm sure what the Chinese would do is buy a bunch of chips, you know. Um, so I'd love to see how AI is dealt with that at this thing.
It's just the idea of Trump sitting down for tea in like the forbidden city with Xiinping and having like a deep substantive conversation about AI is so it's so impossible to imagine.
>> Yeah. To test models and set guard rails. It's just not how Trump thinks.
But what person I mean it's what you should be talking about >> for sure. No doubt. There's no doubt. Or human rights. Remember that.
>> Or climate change.
>> Yeah. There's a few things. Um okay, we got a couple more things. Um so we'll we'll get to those now. Well, obviously next week we'll talk about how the trip actually went, the extent we know. Uh, but first we're going to be petty for a second because there was an article in the Atlantic last week with the headline, "Is Marco Rubio the happiest cabinet member?" Uh, that we wanted to discuss here. So, this was almost entirely based off this one press briefing Rubio did at the White House.
Uh, it was like his only appearance at the White House briefing room since the war in Iran started. Um, here are some excerpts from that briefing. I mean, the top people in that government are, to say the least, um, you know, um, they're insane in the brain. I I wish I knew your name, guys. I apologize. Can you put name tags on?
>> Can I ask you in Spanish or can I ask?
>> Yeah, you can answer in Spanish. You can ask me. They'll have to translate for them what you ask.
You don't have black. You have blue on.
I'm color blind, but I know blue and black.
>> Right there. Yes, ma'am. No. No. You the first one I called on.
>> Thank you, Mr. >> Thank you. This is chaos, guys. I wish I had like a dice. Go ahead. Yeah.
>> No, no, no, no, no, no. Right there. Cuz I'm going to Italy.
Okay.
>> He's Italian. I know him. He used to cover Capitol Hill.
>> Secretary. Uh, many people want to know what is your DJ name?
>> My DJ name?
>> Your DJ name?
>> You're not ready for my DJ name?
>> They are facing real catastrophic destruction to their economy.
Generational destruction to their economy. generational destruction to the wealth of their country imposed on themselves by the by the actions that they're taking. They should check themselves before they wreck themselves in the direction that they're going.
>> What a cool cat. Uh there was also this video of uh Rubio like stepping into the DJ booth in Mara Lago, Trump's [ __ ] caddy turned deputy chief of staff Dan Scabino posted that. And then this whole conversation kind of folds into this broader debate of will it be Rubio or will it be JD Vance who takes like kind of the mantle of MAGA and becomes Republican nominee in 2028. So um this is petty media criticism Ben. But I did just want to ask reporters like what are we doing here guys? Because first of all Rubio I don't know if he's happy or not.
But I don't I don't wish him any personal unhappiness, but like he should not be happy about how his job is going if he's doing a briefing when the US is stuck in a catastrophic war with Iran.
And just like regarding that press briefing itself, Rubio was rolling out project freedom that Straight Hormuz escort mission that we just talked about which Trump unwound like a day later. So that is that is humiliating. any other any other senior foreign policy official would be judged according like that would be seen as a humiliating moment in defeat for them possibly a like careerending yes >> thing. Um and on top of that like the last time Rubio did a press conference it was when he was on Capitol Hill that one day and he basically like ran up to the sticks and was like the Jews made us do it and then he ran away and he hid in a [ __ ] in a cave for a month. And so I was like what is this article? my daughter um I remember she did AYSO soccer um and uh I think she was you know six or seven and um at the end of the year it was really nice even though the team didn't win a single game it was kind of a bad news bears kind of team >> um >> they all got trophies >> nice >> you know participation trophies >> literally >> um the eagerness with which most of the Washington press corps is intent on giving Marco Rubio a participation trophy is so embarrassing.
I mean, let's just to just build on what you said. The man is Secretary of State and National Security Adviser for a country that just lost it and mounted one of the dumbest wars in recorded human history. Uh he announced an operation that lasted 24 hours. Let's just dig into his responsibilities. One of the reasons that that operation shut down is because the Saudis hadn't been notified about it and we wanted to use their >> Who would do that normally?
>> The Secretary of State, right? I mean, he is failing utterly at his job. The National Security Adviser is supposed to be coordinating policym so it's smart.
Did anyone ask Marco Rubio why they didn't know that the Iranians would close the straight of Hormuz? It's his job as national security adviser to war game how the war is going to go and they clearly do not know anything about Iran or the straight of horses did not consult allies which is also his responsibility. So like he is directly responsible more even than Pete Hexath for the catastrophic failure of this policy and the fact that the whole world is suffering because of it and they're all sitting there like having a grand old time chuckling about what he says.
Second, these like sure he doesn't do the like Dr. Seuss rhyme weird Pete Hex voice, but this check yourself lame.
It's not cool. Like >> is he more is he more charming than JD Vance? Sure, but like talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations, says George Bush.
>> That's not cool. Check yourself like the I cannot believe the extent and this foreshadows the cash patell segment to which we are run our country is run in apparently a significant slice of our media by by people that just could not get anyone to sit next to them at lunch in high school you know and s and now like years later he's like check yourself before you wreck yourself like that that that's that like what is going on here >> and like look Rubio is like seen as politically ascendant within the Republican party like Sarah Longwell from in the bull work talks about how his name's coming up in her focus groups all the time. Now there's this meme of like Marco Rubio on the couch in the Oval Office getting every job.
Apparently that's like genuinely helping him because he's seen as competent. But again, it's like you know the land of the you know the oneeyed man is king in the land of the blind kind of situation where it's like yeah he's the most competent of a bunch of morons.
>> But what is what is his accomp like here's what here's what drives me nuts.
>> Venezuela is seen as his one accomplishment. But again that that is not a finished story.
>> Yeah. And even if you just like accept the premise, the premise being that he's capable of standing at a podium and being reasonably articulate for an extended period of time, which by the way should be like the bar for like the deputy press secretary, not the >> future president or the secretary of state.
>> Even if that's some the bar he clears, judge him on his results. Like what what is he like this? What our politics? I mean, just today's media criticism day.
Like, don't the results matter? Like, just the optics, just the fact that this guy manages to not like vomit on himself or or appear to be on on >> purely politically Trump's approval ratings in in the toilet. Yeah. 37.
>> What are we doing here? Why are we building this guy up for for for for nothing like for for for being responsible for this policy?
>> It is enraging. Um, speak of losers in high school.
uh FBI Director Trash Patel, sorry, Cash Patel. Uh he's up on Capitol Hill this morning on Tuesday.
>> As our listeners know, >> Cash has gotten a little bit of unwanted attention lately >> because he's because he drinky drinky.
Um he was guzzling beers on camera at the Olympics. The Atlantic reported that his boozing is a source of concern within the bureau and that cash was once so drunk that his security detail couldn't wake him up and considered calling a SWAT team to get the equipment used to like bust down the door. Then he sued the Atlantic and this reporter in particular. Uh and apparently the FBI might be investigating her and then she drops another banger on his head and we learned that Cash has created and distributes his own signature bourbon bottles. Not really beating the drunk rap there. Got a little logo on it. And there's eagle talon his name on it. It's all very cute.
>> And as a dollar sign first cash that's his name cash cuz like the dollars.
Yeah. So um presumably you would think that given all this context cash would want to deliver a calm sober performance in front of the Senate to silence his critics. Let's see how it went.
>> There have been no occasions when your security detail had difficulty waking or locating you. Is that right?
>> Nope. It's a total force. I don't even know where you get this stuff. But it doesn't make it credible because you say so.
>> I'm not saying it, Director Patel. I I it's been written and documented.
>> You are literally saying it.
>> No, I'm saying that these are reports.
Uh, Director Patel, >> unlike Unlike baseless reports, the only person that was slinging margaritas in El Salvador on the taxpayer dollar with a convicted gangbanging rapist was you.
The only person that ran up a $7,000 bar tab in Washington DC at the lobby was you.
>> Okay. Yeah, that was with Senator Chris Van Holland. So that exchange actually goes on by way a while longer.
>> Chris Ben Allen doesn't strike me as some guy who's like really >> a big boozer.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just not like not a credible attack.
>> Well, first of all, I like I Yeah. I have no idea about the bar type thing, but like the remember the Kilar Argo Van Holland went down to Elist gang. There's no evidence of that.
>> Yeah. So Van Holland went to El Salvador to meet with Kilar Orego Garcia. They they had a conversation at the embassy.
Da Bukayy's goons put these drinks in front of them to stage a photo op that made it look like they were drinking together. It was just like it it was completely propaganda [ __ ] Of course, Cash Patel is repeating that.
>> Um, second, as you noted, Kilargo Garcia is absolutely not a convicted gangbanger rapist. And for the FBI director to say that he pjured himself, it's crazy.
>> He's perjured himself. Mark it down.
>> And then finally, buddy, like button the top button. He He looked like a groomsman who'd been at a wedding since, you know, the bar opened at five.
>> He looks like he tied one on last night.
He's got like a bottle underneath the [ __ ] table, slouching forward.
>> Like, I know they all think that this is what Trump wants, which is like fight back, throw a punch.
>> How'd that work for Pan Bondi?
>> Did that look good to you? Doesn't look great to me.
>> I mean, first of all, we just have to remember that the FBI director is supposed to be a nonpartisan official.
Yeah.
>> So, it's just insane that anybody would Yeah. and he's supposed to be like a yeah a civil servant essentially. Um and and so the and like I get that the audience of one but but this makes him look ridiculous. Like if his problem is he looks ridiculous to the point that the whole country is making fun of him and he's like becoming a thing on Saturday Night Live, like he's just just keeps dumping ammo out for everyone else to use cuz he looks um completely absurd and and and and actually he's just drawing attention to that Atlantic report. Like you know it's not even good communications like no the the smart thing is be like no that report is not true and just that's it. But by like throwing a little tantrum, it's like going to drive some more people to that article and be like, "Haha, Cash like had to get woken up in the morning because he's so hammered." I mean, like, boy, this guy I I can't decide. There's the content creator in me wants cash around, but like the American is a little concerned about that. That's the person running the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Yeah. And by the way, I'm obviously concerned about the fact that nobody's mining the store and there's actually criminals and terrorists and all the sorts of people that the FBI is supposed to be dealing with.
>> But that mentality, the way he talked to Van Holland, the FBI has vast investigative powers.
>> Yeah.
>> It did not suggest someone who might not abuse those powers to like how does he know about the bar tab? I don't know.
Like >> I think someone that is seems that paranoid I mean there's all these reports, right? remember the other report in the was it in the Atlantic that he got logged out of his computer and he freaked out and thought he was fired.
>> He's polygraphing everyone's detail >> polygraphing like he seems like a dangerous paranoid like kind of wounded animal who knows he's not up for the job who would do exactly what you're saying there like kind of use the enormous power of the FBI to go after critics. I like yes whoever comes next will be terrible but I think it would be good for the world to get that [ __ ] out of there.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think it would. We'll miss him. I guess we can cover.
>> I'm sure we'll go back to podcasting.
>> Him and Bon Gino can team up again.
Batman and Robin.
>> Yeah, it' be great. Yeah. Great.
>> Um, okay. That's it for uh our boy Cash Drinks on Us next time you're in LA.
>> Pre-order my book. It's out two weeks from today.
>> Pre-order.
>> Yeah. And I'm actually going to be doing my virtual book launch event uh next Monday. So, I'll throw that link on my social.
>> There we go. Uh, but also stick around for Ben's interview with Susie Hansen about Prime Minister Erdogan, life in Turkey, lots of big important geopolitical issues. So, don't miss that. Pot of the World is brought to you by Helix. Got a a Helix mattress at our house. It is unbelievably comfortable and uh I think we all know that you need a comfy mattress to get a good night's sleep. There's a lot of reasons you'll get a bad night's sleep, stress, other things going on in life, too much light coming in the room, but a bad mattress that's going to kill you. You got to have a good mattress. Helix is super comfortable and they will take care of everything for you and make it easy.
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>> Okay, I'm very pleased to be joined by my friend Susie Hansen who is a journalist who lived in Istanbul for over a decade. She's written for the New York Times magazine. Her first book, which I also recommend, Notes on a Foreign Country, was a finalist for a Pulitzer Prize. Her new book, uh, which everybody needs to buy if you like politics, geopolitics, literary journalism, great writing, amazing personalities. It's called From Life Itself, Turkey, Istanbul, and a Neighborhood in the Age of Erdogon. Uh, Susie, thanks so much for joining us.
>> Thank you so much for having me, Ben.
Okay. So, so this uh really is um you know a unique book because uh you start it and you are reading the story of a neighborhood in Istanbul. Then you realize you're reading about the city of Istanbul. Then you realize you're reading about Turkey. Then you realize you're reading about Aragon. And then you realize, and this is all within the first probably, you know, 40 pages, that you're reading a book about everything that's happened to the world, you know.
Um, and so I want to begin by asking where you begin the book, which is you describe how the forces that we've all become familiar with now, the kind of cocktail of nationalism, authoritarianism, corruption, chaos, how those things that we feel as Americans arrived in Turkey first. Um, and in particular in this neighborhood that you profile, you write, "The dissolution of nations and borders and peoples and seemingly civilization itself was transforming how many of us felt about our individual lives and our future."
that sense that we are we're in history here and not the good kind. Can you describe how these forces became manifest in in Turkey and in this neighborhood uh first and it's really around 2015 or Arab Spring to 2015 uh that you begin and and why did you choose to write about uh those forces through this neighborhood?
>> So it was 2015 I had been witnessing I I I moved to Turkey in 2007. So, I'd been there for seven or eight years and then I was there as all of these Syrian refugees were fleeing the Syrian civil war into Turkey. And you know, I'm sure you're aware of this, this was a kind of lazair refugee management situation where Erdogan was just allowing people to come in, millions of people. Um, and they sort of had to figure out their lives on their own. I mean, they had to find, they had to rent a place, they had to put their kids in school, all of that. So, no one really had any idea how everyone was making this work. And there were at that point 2015 500,000 Syrians in Istanbul. And one evening I went to a friend's for dinner and they said, you know, after dinner you have to take a walk down the main street of Caramuk.
All of the shops have become Syrian. And that was I knew enough about Caramuk to know why that was surprising. Caramru was a nationalist neighborhood. It was famous for the for mafia, for thieves.
it was famous for this uh right-wing party that may pay. And so I knew that they were not going to be welcoming to Arabs. Um and I saw the opportunity to tell this larger story through how these people were getting along because what I when I started talking to them, they started talking about how the presence of the Arabs was challenging their Turkish national identity. And then as I was there for the for the next few years, all of these major events were happening. So you had the Syrian civil war. Obviously, you had ISIS had appeared in Turkey and they were flying into Istanbul and then switching to airplanes and going down to the southern border. You had a new war with the PKK, the Kurdish militant group. Um, and you had Erdogan steadily becoming more repressive. And I suddenly recognized, okay, maybe I can see all of these events through these characters, but understand how they're seeing it from the street level, not from the headlines and not from, you know, the the point of view of the West.
>> So, you you shift back and forth between some of these incredible characters you find in this neighborhood and Erdogan himself, who's a huge character in your book, and and I want to focus a bit on him, um, because I'd never read a book that I learned as much about him from.
Um he's a fascinating character and one place I wanted to start I did not fully understand this um you write about his kind of dual love of Islam and capitalism you know and and we in the west think of him as an Islamist um but you know you write about how much he embraced capitalism and kind of you know development real estate development for lack of a better way of putting it and kind of the corruption the playbook we've seen right where you're building things, but you're skimming money off the top and and all the rest of it. It also got me thinking that as much as we don't associate Islamists with capitalism, I mean, in our country, the religious zealots, the Christian evangelicals are are similarly bullish on capitalism and deregulation and explain where this ideology of Erdogans came from. Um and and and how would you describe this melding of Islamist politics and kind of uber 21st century capitalism?
>> I mean this goes deep into Turkish Islamist history. It goes way back to the first Islamist parties and movements in the 1960s and 70s. But I think you have to put it in the context of you know Turkeykey's founding party was Oturk's party and the only way for and they had shunned religious people to some degree. They had um forced religious brotherhoods to go underground. They had wanted Turkey to be a western-looking secularist country.
Um and so the people of the countryside and the religious people were very much shut out from the halls of power, right?
And so there were a number of old families that got a lot of the um contracts from the government and were rebuilding Turkey after World War I and World War II. But the religious people were shut out of this. And so slowly slowly over time they did see business and the and and starting their own businesses as a way to build their own power in the country because they were shut out of the state and shut out of of most of the the business uh activities.
Erdogan was the um mentee of a man named Need Metan Arabic who also saw the union of um Islam and capitalism as a way of restoring Turkish pride because these were people who were very nostalgic for the Ottoman Empire and for this more grandiose sense of Turkey than what the Turkish Republic became. Erdogan learned from him. Um but also I think it was sort of deep in his blood in the sense that he came to power as the mayor of Istanbul and Istanul was a wreck at that time. It was very poor, people were suffering and what he recognized he could do even though most of the secularist elites did not want him to be in office was he could actually improve the lives of the people which seems like an obvious thing for a politician to do. Um but it's a little bit shades of mom Donnie there. Um but he he saw that oh I can clean up the the garbage of the city. I can improve the water supply. I can improve. But he needed to obviously um to ally with business groups and and other businessmen in order to make a lot of these things happen. And so I think it happened naturally.
But I think a really crucial thing here also is when he finally becomes prime minister. Um he feels still threatened by the secular state, by the military and the jud judiciary who very much wanted to get rid of him. They put him in jail in the 1990s. And so he quickly had to build up his crony class, his businessman class. And that was the way he saw that he could solidify his power in the country. So, one of the things that listeners of the show hopefully know is that, you know, over the years I've kind of really had to reprogram myself around or away from some of the assumptions that are kind of baked into American foreign policy or or baked into kind of the commentary class about the world. And you go right at some of those uh assumptions about Erdogon. Um, and I want to go through a couple of them. Uh the first one is I remember when we came into office in 2009 and and we went to you know uh Ankura and Istanbul in 2009.
You know from that period kind of through the Arab Spring the trendy thing was Erdogan is a mediator between Islam and the West. He's a potential bridge because he has cred with these Islamist you know Muslim Brotherhood guys in places like Egypt and and yet he's modern and capitalist and wants to join the European Union. Um, I kind of now see how like orientalist that was, you know, to just kind of, well, he's Muslim and so therefore he, you know, he can be a bridge, you know, yet at the same time he's clearly an intermediary in other ways. This is a guy that can navigate between the US and Russia, between Europe and the Arab world, between, you know, the BRICS countries and NATO. Why why is it, you know, I mean, Turkey historically has always been this kind of bridge country between Islam and the West and the rest of it. So, there's some of that history, but what what what is it about him that has allowed him to play this kind of mediator role or this guy that can kind of live in one block for a few months and then shift to another one?
>> I mean, I think I think in the beginning, first of all, that was how they were marketing themselves to the world, right? And it was not only Erdogan, but it was also this other Islamic brotherhood, the Gulen movement, which was already very international.
This is this global Islamic movement that was in the United States, knew lots of people on the hill, was had schools in every country. And so he these two allied together. And I think again, you know, their fundamental fear was about the Turkish state, right? So they want to create a sense of them as um big on the global stage in order to fortify their own power and um counter some of the national forces that were against them. I mean it's amazing because he came to power in the 2000s. It's like really globalization is is is is firing on all cylinders and he becomes this kind of globally minded leader. Um, and so I think he was um very different from other Turkish leaders who were much more inward-looking and much more uh almost defensive. And so I don't think it was all incorrect. Um, but now what he has managed to do is something even more extraordinary because over these 20 years what we have seen him do is extend himself in Libya, in Syria, in Azarbaijan, but also to stand up on the world stage with his rhetoric and say no, you know, we take care of our own country. We are regional leaders. We own our own Syrian refugee crisis. We are not going to let the NOS's in and tell us what to do. He has over time steadily made this into, you know, his position in the world. But with those refugees, if you remember, he was essentially able to say to Europe and the West, you can no longer tell me what to do. You cannot criticize me in terms of human rights and everything else. He's putting leaders like Salahhatin Deiras, the pro Kurdish leader, in jail, and all of these. He's repressing thousands of people after the 2016 military coup, but he had 4 million Syrian refugees and it gave him a card to play with the Europeans so as to say, you know, I can just let them into Europe anytime I want and look at us. We are actually taking care of these people and you can't deal with them. I mean, in all of these different ways, he was able to assert himself. It's unprecedented. And now he's Yes. He advertises himself, I'm the middleman for everybody. Hey, Ukraine.
Hey, Russia. Hey, you know, Israel, I mean, he's he's he's always projecting this sense that you need him that all of the but I think in some ways they do simply because of Turkeykey's geography.
I mean, look, Europe is now speaking to him in these very kind terms because they might need him against Russia, you know? I mean, so he somehow manages to bounce back and reposition himself always.
>> Yeah. No, you and I mean, among many good things about there are all these whatifs of history that I found myself asking. One of which was, you know, there was still this idea that they're going to join the European Union, which seems impossible now in 2009, 2010, and you rightly point out that Sarcoi is the one who, you know, truly tubed that, although I think probably other Europeans supported that. That's a great what if what if, you know, they were in the EU. Um, one other, uh, DC thing that you you kind of take aim at, um, is, you know, and I've been guilty of this, uh, which is that, you know, he gets put in the creep club. you know, it's uh uh when you're rattling off the list of autocrats who got elected through democracy and then dismantled it, you know, it's usually you're like saying Putin, Modi, Erdogan, Orban, Bolsinaro, Duterte, um Netanyahu, now Trump. Um you kind of push back against that. Uh and I was really curious to kind of pursue that with you because on the one hand you know the way you describe it o you know really meticulously you know I see a familiar playbook you know um you kind of enrich people through corruption and you build these power blocks and you slowly change the judiciary and then you you know you're you're starting to intimidate the media and make it progovernment and and and then lo and behold you know we're changing the constitution and you know, Erdogan is, you know, going to be president after being prime minister, whatever. Um, and yet you kind of push back against him being the same or kind of in a group with those guys, and they're all guys. Um, I think I get why in the sense that Turkey has such an eccentric um, political system, but but but how would you position him relative to the the autocrats who have kind of defined our age? Well, it just never when they when he was lumped in in that category, it just never rang true to me and I thought it was a little bit lazy.
I think now from the point of view of 2026, I'm seeing um more and more of these similarities with the United States. So, when I wrote the book, I finished it in 2025, I never would have compared the US and Turkey. But now, since 2025 and 2026, I it actually this current time period echoes the book a lot. Like there's a whole chapter about a university and the in the oppression of universities. But I think that a few things are different. Number one, um you know, he's he wasn't we weren't really referring to him as a populist in the beginning. I think it's the first 10 years that is different about that are different about Turkey that you want to look at. He was not just praying on people's sense of of victimhood or grievances the way that say Donald Trump does. The people who he appealed to actually had legitimate grievances. They were actually left behind. they were not folded into the system properly. They were people who felt that they had been looked down upon and um left behind in terms of the economy and education and many other things. And so I think and then the second part is he actually did improve the lives of people. This there this wasn't this isn't a superficial you know ruler. This is someone who actually everyone can talk about when he got the natural gas, you know, people's natural gas accounts hooked up to the internet or when he made water supply um easier or better, when he improved the electricity, all of these services, when he improved the healthcare, when he you know um and then of course just what he did for people's self-esteem which was all very real. So it was because of this genuine popularity that that that that's the basis for why he has sustained a lot of his role today. I think it's more interesting to consider again as you said yes the EU what would have happened but also all of these other regional and global events that were going on and how they affected some of these regimes he had okay the Syrian civil war played a huge role in radicalizing Erdogan. I think that's worth looking at. But I think at the end, which I'm sure you remember, I I do think we have to consider how for a regime in the Middle East, how the war on terror also just the that environment led to um this increasing radicalization. It's not to let him off the hook because we can talk about the second 10 years. Very happy to do that.
But I think that it is just worthwhile to to consider that there are other reasons why the world is going in this direction.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the second 10 years and and you know, maybe can I bring in a little bit of my history here? It might be interesting.
Uh so so and you write in part one, we kind of work up to 2015 and Erdogon's consolidated power, the Syrian refugees are there, like these changes are in motion. Then you have this coup um where uh I still don't, you know, people think when you're in the US government in Logan, you know what happened. Um I have no idea what happened. Um, I know that something fundamental shifted in Erdogon and you obviously get it in this in the book. I will tell you my experience which is he used to be a fascinating guy to meet with because he would actually debate Obama and they liked each other and they they'd go back and forth and he was nimble, flexible even. He might change his mind on something in the meeting. After that coup, Obama only over overlapped for what, like a year.
every meeting he would literally show up with files about Gulen. This is the Islamist that he fell out with who he blamed for the coup. And demand his extradition and and just didn't want to hear about anything else. Didn't want to talk about anything else. He kind of started presenting like Putin, you know, like I I I I believe what I believe.
Some of it may be true, some of it may be conspiracy theory. Um and that was my experience of him. I mean I mean you write about this transformation in him.
I mean what was your impression at the time that you obviously reflect on about what happened? You know there something happened. There was some attempt to you know bomb the parliament. Um and and and yet I also know Turks who think like that was all false flag you know uh you know you hear a million different things. Um but something clearly did happen. um how did he change um because of this event uh that also by the way coincided with the year that Brexit and Trump happened. So the world is taking a pretty dark turn.
>> I think he genuinely felt threatened and then I think that he made use of a of a glorious opportunity which echoed you know what happened after many military coups in Turkish history which is that they sort of remake everything. Um they put people in jail, they start all over.
Um but it was much worse with what he did. But I think that you know if you look at the number of threats that in his mind he was he was facing. It was this war with the Gulan movement. Most people do believe the Gulan movement was involved in that military coup. I think that it's very they they suspect that yes he might have known about it earlier. He let it happen then he knew he could take advantage of it. But that war between Erdogan and the Gulan movement was absolutely real and it was there a lot of people in the country really resent the Gulan movement. So, I mean, there have been tons of things written about it. Um, it's just very difficult to understand and I think get your head. It's a very weird fascinating movement. Trust me, I tried to sell lots of magazine stories about this many, many years ago and it was hard because people couldn't really get their their head around it by but by now it's quite well known what what they were about.
Um, but I think also, you know, he saw Muhammad Morsey in Egypt deposed in 2013 and he believed that it was possible.
Turks believed it was possible that the Americans were involved in that as well.
And this is a Muslim Brotherhood guy.
You know, you have a belief in Turkey on the left, on the right, basically across the board that the Americans have always been involved in military coups in Turkey or played some sort of role. So, I think that just speaks to a broad fear. Um and and then I think there were also in 2013 the GZI Park protests which you know might not seem that threatening from the outside. You know you think oh he's a big guy he's a strong man whatever he can just deploy the military and put them all down. It it was deeply threatening to him.
>> Yeah. This was like people occupying this green space. It was going to be demolished. It was the last remaining green space just so people know. And and it be grew to thousands and thousands of people upset with what had been happening in Istanbul in the country. I I yeah, I see that. And I guess just to to pull it up to today and then I want to get to the neighborhood with one more question. Um how do you know you look at Erdogan today and look you know uh he's still a key player and almost an indispensable man on the world stage. He in Syria Akbara a guy he backed is now you know in charge of that country instead of Bashar al-Assad. At the same time, you know, Israel is making noises about attacking Turkey next after Iran.
We'll see if that happens given what happened in Iran. Um, you know, he's, you know, barely skates through elections, but he does.
Um, uh, the the Kurdish issue is, you know, up and down. Like there's a peace deal with the PKK, but there's still these concerns about the Kurds in Syria having autonomy, although Ahmed Alshar is trying to put an end to that. I the question I guess I wanted to ask is I is this a man who's realizing what he wants to do in power? Is he have a strategy that he's implementing in Turkey and in the region or is this a man that is just a survivors had to react to a million things in an opportunistic way and some of them work and others don't? Um, how much do you think he's building something and has this kind of idea of what Turkey is and should be in the region versus he's just a very canny political survivor?
>> No, I think they had a vision for Turkey in the region and as a what if you say middle power, I don't think they like that term, but as a regional power, I think they've had a vision for a long time. I think they've been building up their defense industry. I think they've obviously, as I said, extending themselves uh throughout the region. I think they also did that for business interests. I think they did that um as a way to just uh shore up their power and I think it it works in the sense that I think some people in Turkey probably can imagine who will would come after them at this point because he has successfully taken over basically all of the institutions of the country. Um he has repressed about 40% of the population. Um and at this point he's now taken to meddling in elections. But I think in terms of the bouncing back and being a sort of canny, flexible domestic leader, I think he's he's just reacting to events at home. And he's happy to shift. He was a liberal looking leader in the beginning. Then he became allied with a right-wing party around 2015. And so, you know, he was looking at a Kurdish opening in in his first eight years in power. And then he was he turned against wherever he saw the mood of the country or you know his own political fortunes shifting he would shift also and he'll do it again. I mean he has now put the country just in a terrible terrible economic situation and that is the trap. I don't see the way out of that. I mean I was just in Turkey in in March. The people in my book who loved him for all of these years suddenly are shattered people.
um including one of my characters, Hussein, their their self-esteem, their sense of self, um and also their belief in Turkeykey's great future and their children's future is now gone. And I think that that is um a a is very very new for him. And I think it's I don't think he has a way out of it. So I think it will be interesting to see to see where we go. I think the the question that you have and I have is what about the opposition? What happened?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and at this point, what what exactly can they even do given how much he's repressing them?
>> Well, the last thing I want to ask you is um the the neighbor itself is fascinating and one of the things I love about your writing and your journalism is that you don't exclude people. I know we just spent a long time talking about um but uh we see what it's like for people to live through all these changes. And the question I want to ask you is I love this role of Mutar. So people understand this, it's kind of like you're it's not just like you're the kind of mayor of the neighborhood.
You you literally people come to you with every problem like from, you know, I don't want my daughter to marry this person to, you know, where can I get this document and it's a very old feeling for but it's a form of democracy in a way. Um it's it's just people constantly trying to solve these problems and survive. Uh, I hesitate to say resilient because I know a lot of people who hate being called resilient because it makes it seem like it's not hard. Um, but with all this change like you just see these people working it out, you know, and some of times they're helping each other. Sometimes they resent the, you know, new Syrians or what have you. But, but it is human beings just in in a somewhat democratic way just keeping this neighborhood moving. And the question I want to ask you is we just talked about the you know the decline of democracy in some ways under which is undeniable. I I I've changed how I think about democracy.
There's no such thing as this is a democracy and this isn't. Like we're everything's a spectrum, you know, like America right now is very not democratic in tons of ways and kind of democratic in others, right? But did you learn something about democracy itself by just focusing in on this local neighborhood and how human beings experience democracy? You know, that human beings that may not have a stake in, you know, how Erdogan's policy is going in Syria well beyond the refugees. So maybe that's not the right one, but like that the the that how did how did that local viewpoint of democracy changed how you think about the concept itself?
>> Well, this was why I found this neighborhood interesting because they were a bit on the margins. No one in my neighborhood was a member of the media that was being oppressed or of the academics or or the Kurds or maybe the the judiciary, the judges who were all being um fired or transferred. these people were a little bit on the margins and many of them um supported Erdogan about 75% of the neighborhood did and then there was 25% that did not but they weren't their lives were not directly affected and what I think was the benefit of failing to finish my book in a in a normal amount of time was that I got to go there um for 10 years and I got to see how all of these people changed and and evolved over those years and what I found fascinating and I think would be fascinating fasating to Americans as well is that you might disparrage some of these people who vote for the autocrat, but what you're not really prepared for is how they are actually processing what's happening to them and the moment when it strikes them that their lives have changed. And it does.
And I think the the chapter in the book that is somewhat hopeful although it was um you know a while ago now is is 2019 because what happened in my neighborhood was that it was the the Istanul mayoral election. There was uh AK was running their candidate. They had run estumble for 25 years and then there was the opposition candidate Ecram Imamolu and he won and it was the first time AK had been defeated in a very important election in the Estambul mayoral election and then the AK tried to claim that there were election irregularities and they called a second election and everyone in my neighborhood even his supporters were so insulted you know they said what does he think we're stupid does he not realize does he not think that we realize what he's doing and it was a very funny kind of macho reaction in some respects and they they started saying you know we're going to teach him a lesson we're just going to teach him a lesson this time and then the neighborhood actually voted for the opposition party which they had not voted for for maybe in in all of their lives just to show Erdogan that they were not going to lose their voice and an interesting thing about Turkey is that it has always had free elections and this is the one thing everybody has had and they love to vote there. I mean, it's really a great pleasure to witness election day in Turkey. And so they they fought back in that in that instance.
Immolu became mayor. Of course, Immolu is in jail now.
>> Now he's in jail.
>> Now he's in jail. But I think that when we think about people's psychologies in the age of authoritarianism, I think, you know, the verdict is that we don't really know what's happening, how people are feeling, and what exactly they are going to react to. And you're right, in a neighborhood like that, in an old Ottoman, in these neighborhoods in a stumble, they still work together to figure things out. They're out in the street. They're talking to each other face to face. I mean, this was also what was appealing to me because I was online all the time. Yeah. And they're still talking to they're still passing on information in this face-toface way, which I think is is a lesson for all of us as well. Um, so, you know, I do I do have hope for Turkey. Um I I just I simply do. It's it's I think also one thing to consider about characters like Erdogan and and this is really an open question. You know, he loves elections too. So he has put his main rival in jail. This was also an unprecedented move. Um but will he return the country to some sort of of real elections? I think that's that's a still a possibility.
>> Yeah. Well, let's you know, let's hope so. I mean you you you convey like you say this country's been through everything you can imagine and yet Istanbul this there all kinds of people are there you know um and they they regenerate you know Roma Armenian Greek Syrian you know in addition to Turks all these other people have kind of passed through and some have been expelled and then some have come and and and yet it all kind of keeps this is what I love about cities like it just keeps regenerating and becoming something that is similar and different, you know.
>> Yeah. And I think that if you look at what Erdogan was brilliant at at the beginning is that he took that creative chaos and he created a new political movement out of it. I mean, it was by going into these neighborhoods, that's the whole reason also that I told the story, the book through a neighborhood.
But the question is, can the opposition now look at the world as it is um and and and the city as it is and and actually and actually say, okay, what is the political movement that needs to be created >> created now? Well, look, uh, the book is from life itself. Uh, it's just so rich with, um, character, detail, history, politics. Um, so people should check it out. Susie, uh, Hansen, thanks so much for joining us.
>> Thank you, Ben. It was really great talking to you.
>> Thanks again to Susie Hansen for doing the show and we'll talk to you next week. Pod Save the World is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Alona Minkovsky, Michael Goldsmith, and Nisha Bonnery. Our team includes Matt Degro, Ben Hethcoat, Jordan Caner, Kenny Moffett, David Tols, and Ryan Young. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
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