Return of the Wild: A Lewis & Clark Resurvey Part 4

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:24]Hey, Roland. Hey, Ben. How you doing?

[00:00:33]>> Wonder what this looks like in the winter. How much it freezes?

[00:00:44]Hey Roland. Hey Ben.

[00:02:33]Welcome to the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences. Thank you for joining us today here in the Daily Planet Theater in downtown Raleigh or for tuning in to the museum's YouTube channel for today's live video call with museum experts who are retracing the steps of Louiswis and Clark traveling the American West looking for wildlife.

[00:02:55]And big shout out and hello to the team at the Whiteville branch of the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences.

[00:03:02]They've tuned in today as well uh to join us for today's call. So excited to have folks across the state tuning in for today's program. Return of the Wild is our museum's well our experts and our experts partnerships and collaborations that are traveling the American West retracing the steps of William Lewis and Marweather Clark. Except in our case they're doing it looking for wildlife, surveying for wildlife and comparing what they see to what Lewis and Clark recorded. Joining me now on stage are two of the scientists who are helping us do that work. The head of the biodiversity research lab and a professor at NC State University. In the hat is Dr. Roland Kay. Hey Roland.

[00:03:47]>> Hey everybody. How's it going?

[00:03:50]>> We're doing great here. It's good to see you. Uh you look you look wet.

[00:03:56]>> Wet. Maybe a little sunburned. Uh my feet are wet. We're standing here in the Missouri River right now.

[00:04:03]And then also joining us is Ben Zeno.

[00:04:05]Ben is an education specialist at the Whiteville branch of NCMNS. Hey Ben, how's it going?

[00:04:11]>> Hey everyone, happy Thursday.

[00:04:14]>> Happy Thursday to you both. Well, uh, you know, I I gave you I gave everybody the one sentence introduction to what's going on. Roland, tell us what you've been up to. How is the expedition?

[00:04:27]>> Yeah, thanks. It's going great. You know, we started in Pittsburgh and we're ending at the Pacific. So, we're doing the whole Louiswis and Clark route. Um, we're doing a lot of it in in a van and uh we're doing some of it in a river.

[00:04:38]And along the way, we're seeing what wildlife we can observe and then also collaborating with people that are running camera traps and then we're checking those camera traps to see what they get on those because a lot of these animals are too secretive to see ourselves. And so, we're we're doing all that and then comparing what Lewis and Clark wrote in their actual journals about the animals. And so this is one of the most exciting places because this is when Lewis and Clark really were in the midst of some of the the greatest wildlife abundances that anyone had ever seen. They were these hills uh and and grasslands were uh filled with bison with pong horn with elk with deer um mountain goats uh grizzly bears wolves hunting all these animals prairie dogs everywhere as far as the eye could see.

[00:05:21]So this was one of the places where they were really like we are in new country.

[00:05:25]We are in the west. Um and we had the fortune of going through some of this country ourselves in the last couple days. Just yesterday we got off this river. Uh the team had uh four days, three nights on the Missouri River here at the Missouri Brakes in Montana. So we're in Montana on the Missouri River.

[00:05:42]what is really the wildest part of the river that's still left. There's the Missouri Brakes uh National Monument protects the lands around this canyon.

[00:05:51]You go up the canyon and on the top and there's some prairie and there's some farmland. Uh but down here it's all wild. And uh we had an amazing couple days on the river >> to the Louiswis and Clark expedition.

[00:06:14]>> Sure. You want to take us?

[00:06:15]>> Yeah. I I mean the Missouri breaks are one of the best documented parts of their exhibition artistically I would say because the landscape here is just so different than anything I've ever seen in my life. um where the river has been running, you can see these just sheer cliffs of sandstone. Um there's some incredible rock formations everywhere you go here. And um when Lewis and Clark were in in this part of the river, it was actually before they had to make an important navigational decision. But but while they were in this section, they observed some species that had never been documented to science before that we actually got to see during our paddle of this river. And um there were several pieces of art that were created um that really showcase the landscape in a way that capture the imagination of eastern audiences and would inspire people to to head out west to see this kind of thing uh later on.

[00:07:06]Yeah. So some of our campsites were literally the exact campsites that Louiswis and Clark had. We could see like the path that was worn from the river up to the campsite by generations of campers be you know since then and up to us. One of them was the site of a big buffalo jump where the Indians would drive buffalo off the cliffs and then harvest them at the bottom. Um, and another one was uh was at some of these rocks that are very distinctive and you know Louiswis and Clark actually didn't have any artists. Obviously there was no photography back then. They didn't even have any artists go with them. So they just described things. Um, but some artists have gone afterwards and painted these scenes the way they think it would have looked in Louiswis and Clark's time. They painted Louiswis and Clark.

[00:07:45]And so we reenacted I think you might have a video I don't know if you can show it of u some of these photographs that we've reenacted where we try to get ourselves and our boats in exactly the right place the same as this historic uh art uh artwork.

[00:08:00]Wow. That that is incredible. I mean so we've got the video that's going now here in the theater uh and we're seeing some of this incredible scenery, the river. Uh we're also seeing some of the work that you were doing with the scientists that you're collaborating with in these different locations. Tell us about the wildlife that you saw.

[00:08:19]We're here to survey wildlife. Tell us what you've seen.

[00:08:24]>> Well, so be before we got on the river, we worked with uh the Anna Nakota Tribal College um and we set some camera traps with them out in this amazing prairie dog town. And um you know, prairie dogs are a species that don't do well with agriculture. So any fetal that's been plowed or has cattle on it probably doesn't have prairie dogs. Probably used to have prairie dogs, but they're a real keystone species for all the predators.

[00:08:47]Uh a lot of the uh animals that use the burrows like burrowing owls. And so we got to get right out in there in this prairie dog town. Um and set some cameras. Of course we saw the prairie dogs. Of course we saw the buring owls.

[00:09:00]And then all of a sudden we got the alert from the other group that was SETTING CAMERAS. SNAKE, SNAKE, SNAKE.

[00:09:05]And so we piled in and Ben went at snake speed. And tell them what you found.

[00:09:08]>> Yeah, we we got our prairie rattlesnake.

[00:09:10]So the the species that we were most excited to hopefully see on this trip.

[00:09:14]The first day that we visited a prairie dog town, we got to see two prairie rattlesnakes. And it's awesome because when you see these animals, they're just resting. They're basking right outside these abandoned prairie dog burrows. And for that snake, for that rattlesnake, that burrow is its lifeline. It will spend the winter in the burrow so it doesn't freeze over the winter. It will spend hot summer days in the burrow so it doesn't overheat. It will hunt from the burrow. It will bask outside the burrow. Um and so prairie dogs when they are on the landscape, yeah, they impact the vegetation. They impact what we see above ground. But there's also so much below ground that's going on. We don't see um that prairie dogs are contributing to. In fact, over 150 species are known to use those prairie dog burrows, including prairie rattlesnakes. And uh one of the reasons that we were really excited to hopefully find that species is um it was actually right around this week u when Lewis and Clark found their first prairie rattlesnake. Well, Lewis found it. Um so it was just crazy that we were able to observe prairie rattlesnakes within the same week that this species was first described to science back in 1805 by the original core of discovery and they were beautiful. They were such gorgeous snakes and um they were really relaxed.

[00:10:21]They just sat out and bass and we got to film them and and photograph them and yes, it was awesome. Definitely a highlight of the trip for me.

[00:10:28]>> And then after that, uh I don't think we saw any other snakes up there. It's pretty dry. You once you get up there, it's still pretty dry. They're in a bit of a drought, but when you get down here to the river, it's much more lush. Uh there's these beautiful cottonwood trees along the area. And uh and that's when we really started getting seeing the snakes. So, we actually were able to find all the snakes that are known to be in this area while we were on the river.

[00:10:48]Um, you want to go through them and maybe and actually we have one. We just just like 10 minutes before the show there was one right here right up here in our campsite and so we uh have one to show here.

[00:10:58]>> Yeah, we went through a snake drought for a while when it was was literally dry and hot uh too hot for snakes. But once we got to our campsites, especially where those cottonwood growers were growing, uh, man, we um the drought broke. It was a it was a snake storm. We literally documented every species of snake known to exist in the brakes in the course of our 4-day paddle, which doesn't happen very often. And so, the species I'm going to show you now is one of the most commonly encountered snakes in this region. And it's actually a really close cousin of a species that you can find right there in central North Carolina. Here's a bag. And here's our snake. So, this is the yellowbellied racer. And this is actually a subspecies of the common racer that we find in North Carolina. So you can see the body shape is very similar. You still have really elongated body, really, really huge eyes. And you can see as I hold it, he's looking around, very aware of his surroundings, flicking his tongue. These are our really active dial snakes. Dal meaning they're out in the daytime. So these are often commonly encountered by hikers, by paddlers on their journey, and they can grow up to around 5t long.

[00:12:02]So they can get much larger than this.

[00:12:04]But their common name, the yellow belly racer. Look at these ventral scales down there.

[00:12:09]>> Isn't that just gorgeous? and they're they're this like u kind of bluish top.

[00:12:13]So, I think this is actually one of the biggest surprises of the trip was how beautiful these racers are. Um, usually you only see them for a second or two before they disappear into the underbrush. So, it's been really special to observe a couple of these actually over the past few days and um see how similar they are to our species back at home, but also those differences that make them so so beautiful.

[00:12:35]That's incredible stuff. Amazing. It's amazing to see how uh calm the snake is in your hands as well, Ben.

[00:12:44]>> Yeah, >> use the snake whisperer.

[00:12:45]>> I don't know about that, but but yeah, once they stop being scared, then they usually they usually calm down.

[00:12:51]>> There was the very first question that came in on the chat on YouTube, which I'll say if you're here in the theater and you want to ask questions about the expedition that Roland and Ben and our team are undergoing, uh just wave at me.

[00:13:02]If you're down here, I'll bring you a microphone or you can yell down at me from the balconies. Uh, and if you're watching on YouTube, you can type questions and comments into the chat.

[00:13:10]I've got it pulled up so that we can continue the conversation about the work that they're doing. Uh, but the very first thing that came in was herp update, Ben. Everybody wants her update.

[00:13:20]>> Yeah. The best herp update ever, right?

[00:13:22]We four species of snake. So, we got >> Yeah. Yeah. We got a uh plains garder snakes. Several of them actually. Um, we saw something pretty cool, too, that I'll show you guys later. Plains garder snakes, yellowbellied racer. We got the prairie rattlesnake and it was the last full day of our river trip. We uh we pulled up to our campsite after a 14 mile paddle. We were setting up for lunch. You know, we're all hungry and we look down in the river and there's like a four or five foot bullsnake swimming across the river to the campsite. So, that one we didn't have to work for. Uh that was pretty awesome. I I freaked out a little bit. You did? Um it was really really cool. That was a species I I didn't I kind of gave up on seeing. So So those are the four species of snake we got. We also found some toads. uh more woodouses, toads on the banks of the river. We've heard them calling every night. Um and it just especially seeing the amphibians, that's a great indicator that this uh wershed is well protected and amphibians don't do well when there's not riparian buffers um because they don't have anywhere to breed. So, it's it's been awesome. I mean, yeah, that just the species diversity alone proves um the importance of of protecting this landscape and this river.

[00:14:28]>> It was really interesting looking at the cottonwood trees along the way. Some of them are giant, like you know, bigger than you can wrap your arm around, growing only right on the shoreline and providing the only shade anywhere in this area. So, um, we really appreciated it for the campsites that had it. But what's interesting is, um, they're struggling and the it's been drying out.

[00:14:45]And so, they actually have some volunteers, uh, the friends of the Missouri brakes that go out every few weeks and water these trees to to keep them there. And we noticed a difference.

[00:14:54]We appreciated the shade, but also the bird life. When we were at a campsite that had those trees, there was probably two or three times as many bird species um as when we were in one that just had the kind of dry uh dry sage brush. There was also um quite a lot of beaver activity here. And you know, this was one of the species that Lewis and Clark were really after because that's what all the money was back in those days was beaver skins. So they were they were negotiating uh treaties with the Indians to to bring in beaver skins and this area was really important for that. Um so they saw a lot of beavers when they were here. Um but then afterwards the beavers were pretty much trapped out uh because you know a beaver lodge is pretty obvious you can put a trap there and get them and so there would have been no beavers for a long time but now the beavers are coming back. Um and we actually got to see some really cool restoration work where some of these streams up on the up on the prairie that have beavers and how much that slows down the water. And then we went to this other stream that didn't have beavers and it's just eroded out, right? It's just this like muddy and and there's not even any water there anymore, right?

[00:15:52]It's like it it it when it rains they they flow and it just erodess everything and there's no vegetation to stop the water uh to slow it down and let the plants actually use it. So what the scientists are doing, these are scientists from the Smithsonian, they're putting in basically fake beaver dams, de they call them beaver analogs. Yeah.

[00:16:09]Um and so they're just jamming some sticks in there and trying to make a dam. And what they're hoping is that will restore the river enough where beavers will then move in. like it's not they're not trying to replace rivers, but basically if there's no water, if it's just flashes out, then the beavers aren't going to move in. And so by slowing the river down some, they're hoping that that the beavers will move back in. So that was kind of cool, too.

[00:16:33]>> Wow. That's that's really interesting.

[00:16:35]That's a very interesting technique to try to protect and preserve this place uh and and bring back some of the wildlife. And you've been talking throughout this uh about prairie dogs and the prairie rattlesnakes, the species that use them. Uh you mentioned bison and we saw video of some of the bison as well that you've spotted. Uh >> oh yeah, >> but it puts >> great drone work by our our teammate Evan there for that for that uh that bison video. That that was really special. You guys get to see that. I'm I'm glad you got to see it. That was a special moment because we were on American Prairie Reserve where they're releasing bison and letting them run over vast areas. So, we saw some other bison that are farmed and you see bison sometimes in small farms and, you know, they're hemmed in and they're fed.

[00:17:19]They're maintained kind of like cattle, but these are not. These are wild bison.

[00:17:22]And what was so special about that drone shot that Evan got was just the background and the threedimensionality of it. And you realize that these were not foreign bison. They're out there running on their own. And that was really special to see those and get that footage.

[00:17:36]>> Great job, David.

[00:17:38]It puts me in mind though of sort of the the conservation story across the American landscape and across uh American history since Lewis and Clark where most of the animals that you're saying you've gotten to see on your 4-day trek and over the last several days would not have been seen on this river up until the last few just the last few decades I'm thinking.

[00:18:02]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So some of them So it's an interesting combination.

[00:18:06]Um, this place has most of the big components that Lewis and Clark would have seen. Not in the same abundance, right? But there's mountain lions, there's mu deer, there's whitetail deer, there's pong horn. Those have always been here. But then the bison have been re they've been brought back, right, to some places. There's also swift foxes.

[00:18:24]We haven't seen one yet, but we're hoping we get one on camera trap. These cute little swift foxes. They've also been brought back as a as a reing, as a reintroduction project. Um, and then the other two that are really interesting are the wolf and the grizzly bear because those were super common here in Louiswis and Clark's day, you know, hanging out with the bison herd and all these other big animals and hunting them. And they were they were extrapated from this area. They did not live in this area and they have not been brought back physically as a reintroduction program, but they have recolonized on their own uh coming down this river corridor in this national uh uh national monument. Um, and uh, the wolves, from what I've heard, have just been kind of passing through. They don't know that they have breeding wolves here yet, but uh, according to one of our colleagues, for the first time ever, there's a breeding grizzly bear. There's a female with a cub uh, here somewhere down river. We were we were on the lookout.

[00:19:16]We were looking for tracks. We didn't see any. Um, but this is a sign that, you know, if you protect the landscape, uh, make protected areas, you know, find some ways to share the land so it's not, you know, sure, we need the wheat fields, right? We need the cattle fields uh to produce food for our for ourselves, but uh to find to ways to leave room for these other species and they will come back.

[00:19:40]Incredible stuff. How how much area is the Missouri brakes? This this stretch of river that you're talking about that's protected and remained relatively pristine uh over the last couple centuries.

[00:19:54]>> I don't think we have that number at our fingertips.

[00:19:55]>> It's over 100 miles.

[00:19:56]>> It's really big. Uh we only paddled part of it. Um and uh and I think the part that we paddled has the crazier white cliffs that are really really cool, but further down uh it gets even bigger and wilder. And I think that's where the grizzly bears are or bear maybe too. And that's where apparently the big horn sheep are much more common. We were looking for them on our trip, but we didn't see them. So it's big. I don't know how big, but it's one of the uh you know real wild rivers in North America and one of the only places you know that has this prairie, this American prairie uh you know in the river and and and surrounding the river um and uh that had that that supports all this wildlife and you know birds and plants and all kinds of biodiversity.

[00:20:40]>> Incredible stuff. Ben, how's that snake doing?

[00:20:44]>> He's just hanging out. I think he's enjoying the camera time. Should we Should we try our experiment? The experiment?

[00:20:50]>> Yeah. We're We're going to try I don't think this has ever been attempted on live stream, but there's a crayfish right here.

[00:20:54]>> Oh, yeah. Do you still see him?

[00:20:56]>> I think he's right here. I'm gonna try to grab the crayfish. Let's see what happen.

[00:20:58]>> We'll have to get Brian one to ID the species.

[00:21:02]>> I got him.

[00:21:02]>> No way.

[00:21:03]>> Oh, yeah. Here we Oh, he's pinching me.

[00:21:04]He's >> I'm going to rinse him off. He's all muddy.

[00:21:08]>> Ah, he's pinching me. There he is. All right. There he is.

[00:21:15]>> Little crayfish. Hold it over your shoulder.

[00:21:17]>> He He was scurrying around here and just kind of hunkered down. I think he wanted to watch the show, but he got a little more than he bargained for.

[00:21:23]>> Well, we'll take a picture of him and put him on I naturalist. Maybe Brian can help us identify it.

[00:21:30]>> Let's uh roll it. Hold it over your shoulder because we we can't see it against your uh shirt and body. There we go.

[00:21:36]>> Oh, how's this?

[00:21:38]>> Yeah, the the river creates a little silhouette.

[00:21:42]>> Oh, look at that. Everybody at their toes that you got a round of applause, Roland.

[00:21:50]>> All right, I'm going take a picture. Put Let me get snake, too. Put them on, too.

[00:21:54]All right, great. So, we'll uh we're we're posting all these observations uh that we get along the way to the citizen science platform called I Naturalist. Um and that's a way where anyone can post an observation of any kind of biodiversity as a photograph and uh people will help identify it. Sometimes uh experts will chime in. I go in there and help identify mammals that I know how to identify. Like I have no idea what this crayfish is, but maybe Bronlin will look at it or from or somebody else who knows crayfish and identify it. And then that'll be it's kind of like a museum specimen, right? In our museum downstairs, we have skins and and jars of snakes and skins of mammals um that are showing where and when a species occurred. And this photograph can provide the same kind of evidence. And so uh we're documenting this as we go along at I Naturalist. Um, and we're also going to be using I naturalist data to see what other people have been observing. So, it's not just our camera traps that we're putting out in a very systematic and scientific way, but also any observations from citizen sciences along the route will allow us to also compare with what Lewis and Clark saw.

[00:22:57]Exciting stuff. I love that you're using the the these other science platforms and other ways and techniques of collecting data and information about the wildlife like I naturalist and then the ability to compare all of those observations which at this point would be I mean how many camera trap pictures have you gotten along the adventure so far plus the I naturalist >> it's got to be thousands and thousands of data points.

[00:23:23]>> Yeah. Well, so on the camera trap side, uh we have about 140 arrays and each array has at least 15 cameras. Um and then they're left out for for weeks or months. Each camera is generating thousands and thousands of of records of wildlife of of probably dozens and dozens of species. So we're going to be putting it all together. Um and then we're going to make all the data publicly available. So people want to see the pictures, people want to use the uh use the data, that'll all be out there. Um and uh that'll be marking a time point. So obviously like comparing with Louiswis and Clark is interesting, right? But they didn't have camera traps. But we can also compare with other places that we survey with cameras today or with you know maybe maybe someone will come along and do this in another 10 years and and see uh how things have changed over that time period >> from let go. Do you serve this time?

[00:24:12]>> Probably. Thanks for the data.

[00:24:14]>> Oh, he hit my foot. There he goes.

[00:24:18]>> He's going to go find a rock and run away. swim away. Uh so one of our viewers wants to know if you're going to stop at Giant Springs and the Louiswis and Clark Interpretive Center in Great Falls.

[00:24:29]>> Yes, that is our next stop. Actually, you know, this route is amazing for history, of course, the Louiswis and Clark route, right? And there are historical mark I mean, we see a historical markers many times per day.

[00:24:39]So we we don't have time to stop at a mall, but definitely the Great Falls is our is one that we're going to take some time in. Check out the interpretive center. Check out the falls themselves.

[00:24:47]Right. So that's this is just up river and basically Louis and Clark I mean they had it tough but they got really tough up at Great Falls cuz that's when they had to do this massive portage up over these waterfalls up over these cliffs. We haven't seen it yet so uh we can't speak um to that but we we did have our own little tough experience.

[00:25:04]>> Oh yeah. No, a couple days ago we were camping and there's this cool uh feature called Hole in the Wall and uh so we we had to paddle downstream for about a mile and then we did this amazing hike and we're just up there. I mean, it felt like our own personal Grand Canyon. Just incredible canyons. Like nobody else around. Like one canoeer went by while we were there. That was it. And then um >> we got back down like, "Okay, let's paddle back upstream to our >> uh our camp." And we couldn't do it. I mean, we were tread water. We were like, you look at the shore and you're not moving at all. So, we had to get out and walk. And so, we were we were treging uh our our uh our canoes only for like like a mile. Yeah. But, uh felt like a long time.

[00:25:41]>> Kind of a pain. And you know, we were like, "Okay, now you know, it was hard enough where you had this this little taste of what Lewis and Clark and and the core of Discovery had to go through."

[00:25:50]>> Oh my gosh, that's Well, uh uh sorry you had some troubles along the way, but at least you still got the van waiting on you.

[00:25:59]>> We do. We're going to We're not going to paddle upstream anymore. We're going to jump in the van. We got the boats on the trailer. We got the tents packed up. Uh we're ready for our next stop. And after Great Falls, then we're on to Roosevelt Ranch, which is named after Teddy Roosevelt, one of the great conservationists of America, and is a wildlife friendly ranch. So, they have cattle, working cattle. Uh they also have um grizzly bears, cougars, wolves living right there. So, we're going to learn about how they coexist.

[00:26:26]Exciting stuff. Question for you from the audience.

[00:26:34]What are the water levels like on the Missouri River? Are they down because of lack of snow?

[00:26:40]>> You want to take >> Yeah. Yeah, they are. Um, they're definitely down. We were told by our guide before we left on this trip that we actually got really lucky with the water levels. Uh, usually springtime between snow melt and the spring rains, uh, the river is at one of its highest points in the year, if not its highest point. Um, but there has not been any spring rain really since we've been here. Um, and yeah, there's also very little snow pack to melt into the river.

[00:27:03]So, the water level is definitely low.

[00:27:04]And it's actually interesting, too, because um, when we're navigating the river, we're we're looking for other rivers that Louiswis and Clark denoted to try and find our campsites and stuff because, uh, we have no internet, so we're using maps. And, um, a lot of these rivers that Lewis and Clark noted are not are not running right now. So, it made it a little bit challenging to find some of our campsites. Um, but it's also kind of concentrated wildlife at the river. And so, as we've been paddling, basically anything that that needs water has to come to the river right now. So, that's been kind of cool.

[00:27:32]>> Yeah. Also, it's it's interesting comparing this river with uh the last big section of river that we paddled, which is right along the uh Nebraska, South Dakota border. Uh, it's another one of the areas that's still wild. It's not damned. Um, uh, but it's it's a very different river. It's very wide. Uh this area is much rockier and so it's it's sort of and canyons and so the river is more focused and there it's more spread out. So we were constantly running into sand bars uh on that river which Lewis and Clark did as well. When we got out here there was no real concern. You we never really ran into a sandbar uh nor rapids. It was a pretty easy flow.

[00:28:06]Beautiful place. I highly recommend it.

[00:28:07]Anyone's interested in uh in a river trip with a little bit of adventure but like no crazy rapids or anything like that and some of the most beautiful campsites I've ever seen in my life.

[00:28:16]come to the Missouri Brakes.

[00:28:19]>> I'm jealous. It sounds amazing.

[00:28:22]>> So, let's talk about uh there's a question here in the chat and it's got me in mind of this, too. The question in the chat is if you've seen any elk, and it makes me wonder, will elk one, but what are some other wildlife that you hope to see that you haven't come across yet?

[00:28:38]>> Yeah, we've not seen elk yet. Uh that was one uh you know, Louiswis and Clark saw tons of them. Um, and you know, elk are a species that's that's pretty highly managed by the states. Uh, and and that you can hunt them here in in Missouri. I don't think this is great elk habitat, especially up on the grasslands, but I did expect to see them in the river, and we haven't seen them.

[00:28:58]Uh, one of the boers that we talked to that was sleeping in a different campsite said he did see one elk, so they are here. Um, big horn sheep are are another one that we had hoped to see along these rough canyon. They do like these rough canyons. And so, why there's not more, I'm not sure at this point.

[00:29:12]Right. These are both managed species that are, you know, promoted by the the the Montana uh state um game agency. And so, uh overall, they're doing uh doing okay, but they're not as abundant here as I guess they used to be or we were hoping they would be.

[00:29:30]>> What would you say are the greatest conservation challenges on this landscape today?

[00:29:38]>> Well, it's just, you know, who's going to use the resources? Uh, is it going to be humans for agriculture and for beef or is it going to be letting the animals on the land because those are not really very uh it's not it's not it's very difficult to do both especially on the grassland right where it's very fertile landscape and so it's great farming country there's a lot of wheat that's been grown here and I like bread you know so uh um we need that but um you know we also need prairie dogs and we also need bison And you know, there's some ways for those to coexist a little bit, but there's really a culture here.

[00:30:17]Uh the ranchers settle this wilderness and they don't want to give it back. And so that some of them don't don't don't want to give it back. You know, there they don't like the bison. And there there's some controversy right now where the Trump administration has made a ruling that the American Prairie Reserve, the place that we just visited, they had a lease to put uh bison on public land on BLM land. and the the Trump administration said that that's not allowed. It can only be cattle even though that's not the way the rule's written from from their perspective and they they were paying for the right to have the bison out there. So that just sort of shows some of the animosity and we we saw some signs that said save the cowboy uh that were against the American Prairie Reserve because they feel like uh uh that's threatening the uh sort of western rancher uh identity. Um, and so those are some of the conflicts that we're seeing here that are that are are really interesting to see firsthand. Um, and you know, not there's a lot of support for conservation here as well.

[00:31:11]Uh, and there's a lot of support for ranchers. So, I think, you know, finding that balance of of of, you know, leaving some room on this landscape for the bison and for the prairie dog while still, uh, you know, having the resources we need as a society.

[00:31:27]colleagues uh all along the journey.

[00:31:30]What are some of the strategies that these folks in these local places are doing to advance conservation goals?

[00:31:38]>> Yeah. Well, you know, they're definitely trying to work with the communities. Uh that's, you know, one of the biggest things is um is to to to, you know, to find some common goals and to find some ways to work together. um you know the guy from uh uh so we saw these signs that were like you know save the cowboy and we talked to the guy from the American preserve and he's like we're doing the cowboy thing right like cowboys are about wolves and grizzly bears and bison and you know running horse and running cattle and we do all those things here we are out on the landscape uh living the cowboy lifestyle uh it's just a cowboy lifestyle that that that that has wildlife in it and and I think that's what he is trying to promote and so again you know there's different perspective to that um but definitely you know number one thing is work with the people because the people are the are the problem or the people are the solution. Um and so so that's something we saw um you know not only with American PUR reserve but then also with the tribal group right the Nakota tribes are uh you know they have the reservation and they they can run that the way they want and they have some cattle on there of course but they also have some areas that are set aside for the for the for the buffalo and for the prairie dogs which are very important to their culture. Um and uh and we also got to see Mission Canyon, which is a place where they do uh uh sort of big community pows and get together uh right out in the mountains, which was which was really cool. So it was interesting to see, you know, these different things all playing out in the landscape together. Uh and really really privileged, I think, to to have a chance to talk with these people that are so involved and get a little taste for it ourselves and, you know, share it with you guys. We'll share it on our website.

[00:33:07]We've got some videos we're putting together as well. So really try to get the story out.

[00:33:20]any what water quality testing. Oh, so yeah, one um artifact of the water quality here is that we anticipated on our paddle we would be able to filter the the river water to drink and um a couple days before the paddle, we realized uh it was it is not actually have to drink the river water because of the agricultural chemicals um that have leeched into the river. And so yeah, that was challenging. We realized we had to bring enough water for six people for four days, which is a lot of water to put in a boat. Um, it worked out. But, but yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of sad, I think, that that here's this like beautiful river and this beautiful landscape, but the water is so contaminated like you can't even drink it anymore. Um, I don't who knows what it's doing to wildlife. You >> want to talk about the gold mine?

[00:34:06]>> The Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was also um there's a a history of mining, of course, in a lot of these mineral rich mountains here in Montana. And um especially in the past, mining regulations weren't always made with the safety of people or wildlife in mind.

[00:34:21]And so um there's an area um back where we were a few days ago where where basically the landscape has just died.

[00:34:28]Like the the mercury has and I believe it was arenic or no, >> it was cyanide.

[00:34:34]>> Yeah, maybe it was cyanide. It um has leeched out of the mine and poisoned everything around it. And um I don't think we actually got to see that area, but they described that >> Michigan State. Yeah.

[00:34:43]>> Yeah. So you we could see the mine the open pit and um it's it's not active anymore and it's a controversy and now now you know I think the company got in trouble but basically the tribe is like yo you poisoned our water. Um so they're they're pretty pissed about it.

[00:34:57]Yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh.

[00:35:00]Incredible stuff. Thanks for sharing that.

[00:35:04]I've got one more for you that's here in the chat. Uh we talked about snakes.

[00:35:08]They want to know about turtles.

[00:35:11]Ah, yeah, we actually we did detect a new turtle species during our paddle. I forgot I mentioned that. Uh, there's a really cool turtle called the spiny soft shell that we saw. Um, we didn't catch them because they're actually lightning fast for turtles. They're like giant living pancakes that move at super speed, but we did get to see some um using the sand bars and the um vegetation on the side of the river.

[00:35:31]They can be over 30 pounds, so they're pretty big turtles. And um it's actually the only species that we saw on on the whole paddle here. So, it's kind of interesting that um the troll diversity is so low, but part of that just the temperature. It's just hard to I mean, the prairie, it's an amazing place. It's so productive, but it's also extreme. I mean, to to survive in the prairie, you've got to be pretty tenacious. So, all the species we see here are are animals that uh they know how to survive.

[00:35:56]>> Tell tell them about the other species we didn't catch.

[00:35:58]>> Which other species?

[00:35:59]>> The big species we didn't catch.

[00:36:02]>> The big species that we tried to catch in the water. There's a lot of these invasive carp big fish. We see them all over the place and they're and and they're they're invasive so you can kill them whenever you you know they sort of encourage you to kill them and so we could see them along the shoreline bre you know uh uh breeding and um you know they're big fish so uh Ben crafted a spear.

[00:36:23]>> Yeah, we um we did indeed craft a spear.

[00:36:25]I had my camera and my spear in the front of the boat. The the two tools of conservation, education and management.

[00:36:31]And um we didn't do any management, but we did we did see lots of car. They're very fast. It turns out >> they are very fast. Like you said, they're tenacious. They know how to survive. And actually, I mean, they must know how to survive bald eagles because we saw tons of bald eagles. We saw two nests and I think something like 15 or 20. I got the count up on my in my notes. Uh, bald eagles. And they they must be taking these carpet.

[00:36:51]>> Yeah.

[00:36:53]>> The two tools of conservation, education and management. And Ben, it sounds like you got managed and educated.

[00:37:02]>> We did. The scarp educated us.

[00:37:04]>> Yeah, they did.

[00:37:09]All right. Well, uh, fantastic stuff, guys. Thanks for taking the time out of the expedition to call in and share the latest updates with us. Uh, this this has been fantastic. The landscape looks beautiful. Uh, we've been watching some of the video that's played, too. Roland, what was this pipe you were drinking out of?

[00:37:27]>> Oh, that was a spring. That was not where the gold mine was. Um, that was a spring coming out of Snake But actually.

[00:37:34]uh a beautiful protected area on the tribal lands um that we uh we did.

[00:37:38]There's some prairie dog towns right there. We actually got to meet a blackfooted ferret expert right there and I interviewed the blackfooted ferret expert uh right right next to snake be and they're like, "Oh, you can run up and get a drink up up the river." So, we we uh we checked that out.

[00:37:53]Fascinating stuff. Incredible. Well, guys, uh thanks so much again. Best of luck on the rest of your journey. So, it's after four days on the water. Now, it's uh in the van and to to Great Falls. Is that what's next?

[00:38:08]>> Yeah, Great Falls. We're going to say say goodbye to Ben. We're going to miss him for the rest of the trip. He's going back to Whiteville uh from the Great Falls airport. And um and Eban as well is gonna going to swap out. And Matt Jones is coming in. So, we'll have a different crew. And then, yeah, then we're on to the uh wildlife friendly cattle ranch right on the edge of the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana. then down to Yellowstone. Uh and then then over the hump and sort of the downstream run to the Pacific.

[00:38:37]>> You know, I've got one more question.

[00:38:39]You've been at this for 28 days now. Are you tired yet?

[00:38:44]>> Are you tired yet? Oh my god. Yeah, a lot of tired. But also, you know, we've we've done a good job at taking naps. We get up early. We go and then uh we try to some Well, we did on the river anyway. Some sometimes >> it's been incredible. you know, it's just there's barely been a break. And so, we were joking today, like I can tell you what I did yesterday, but like three days ago, I really have no idea what I was doing. It's it's just been kind of one thing after the other.

[00:39:08]>> But it's been so stimulating. It's been so amazing to see these animals, to see these places, and to meet these experts uh that are telling us of what's going on with all these different stories just like we shared today. I mean, that was just, you know, the last few days up on these hilltops and uh now we're about to roll into a whole new situation in the mountains. So, I can't wait.

[00:39:28]excited for you and I'm excited for the next checkin, folks. Uh, let's get rolling. It been a great big round of applause. You can drop your appreciations in the chat on YouTube if you're watching online as well.

[00:39:40]Excellent stuff. You're doing fantastic work out there. We appreciate you taking the time to call in, give us an update.

[00:39:46]Uh, folks, head to the museum's website, naturalciences.org.

[00:39:50]Check out the calendar, look for Return of the Wild, and you can find the rest of the schedule for our live streams and our programs here in the Daily Planet Theater when we'll be calling back in to get the latest updates as Roland and the team retrace the steps of Louiswis and Clark reserveying their route for wildlife.

[00:40:08]Anything else, guys, before we say goodbye?

[00:40:12]>> That's it. Tune in next time. It's going to be wild. It's gonna be wild. Bye, everyone.

[00:40:19]All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye.