What Race and Religion Don't Explain

[00:00:00]When you put limitations on people's thinking, reading, etc. on access to information, right? Human beings make human beings, we will always find a way.

[00:00:09]Yeah? Okay, you say this, let me find out whether it's true. Okay, I think I have offended a lot of people. I'm going to just put it out there.

[00:00:16]But I thought I think we need to know how we all live to understand each [music] other.

[00:00:21]>> We We're all witnesses to uh I think Malaysians are very famous for our keyboard keyboard warrior skill. [music] We're able to like when we engage on comments on social media, we go all out.

[00:00:33]I mean it it ranges from ridiculously offensive to like we were talking about this earlier like pure comedy, right?

[00:00:39]And you literally sit there and watch the read the comments and have a giggle.

[00:00:43]>> I think [music] it comes from a point of frustration, right? Because they're not heard in real life. So, on the internet, [music] they're like, "Okay, I've got this opportunity. Nobody's going to know who I really am. So, I'm going to just say all these nasty things. To hell with his or her feelings. I'm just going to say it."

[00:01:03]>> [music] >> For Dina Zaman, understanding each other starts with curiosity and the imagination to sit [music] inside someone else's story.

[00:01:11]The author of I Am Muslim, Malay Land, and co-founder [music] of research outfit Iman, Dina's own curiosity was shaped early. A childhood split across countries that weren't hers with [music] roots in Terengganu that she kept coming back to.

[00:01:25]While Islam matters deeply to her, it's her willingness [music] to sit with difference that lets her see beyond the labels Malaysia so often [music] insists on.

[00:01:35]>> You know, I think it was last year or was it two years ago, right? So, I want to see Sunny Side Up show in that go down.

[00:01:43]>> Yeah.

[00:01:43]>> I remember that place. Anyways, so I met this girl from a packet tudung with her boyfriends and they were like, "Ooh, kakak, I'm seeing my two weeks for the first time. Could I keep on for the first time?"

[00:01:53]>> Mhm.

[00:01:54]>> And her parents are saying that haram.

[00:01:56]But I said, "So, how come if your parents say it is haram, how come you're here?"

[00:02:00]>> Yes.

[00:02:00]>> And he said, "This is my life."

[00:02:02]>> Right.

[00:02:02]>> And they are willing. I think that the young I think, "Okay, we've been taught this, but I'm going to make my life on my own terms.

[00:02:09]I'm going to think on my own terms." And I'm always blown away by the researchers I work with, right?

[00:02:15]>> mean, we all come all sorts of shapes, sizes, and thinking.

[00:02:18]>> Mhm.

[00:02:19]>> But every one of them is like You must be mad.

[00:02:22]>> Like this, you know. "Oh, really?"

[00:02:24]>> Uh-huh.

[00:02:24]>> [laughter] >> I think if I had been that researcher at that age, during that time, I wouldn't have been able to think that way.

[00:02:32]>> Yeah.

[00:02:33]>> Because I go, "Oh, my boss is going to kill me. Oh, no. The state says you have to think this way about identity and religion."

[00:02:40]These kids now are like, >> Well, then this is it, right? You bring up an interesting point on the license to think or the freedom to think. Do you need to be allowed to think? And then, yeah. And then, what my next question is is do Malaysians read enough?

[00:02:56]Do you agree, disagree, and why?

[00:02:57]>> I might be biased because I am surrounded by thinkers, researchers, and writers. So, my little circle, even my young researchers, right?

[00:03:07]They always got a book.

[00:03:09]>> Right. But that's that's that's a niche.

[00:03:11]Is that niche?

[00:03:12]>> It could be niche because I also have met young people who are like, I actually asked them, "Have you ever read Glam, the magazine?" No, it's too much.

[00:03:20]But it's a fashion magazine. I think it's this.

[00:03:22]>> Mhm.

[00:03:22]>> You know, it's too much.

[00:03:24]So, you have this little group who like reads, reads, reads, buys second-hand books, or save up money, you know? Then you have the general population who are like, "We'll read, but enough." I mean, a lot read the Malays religious books.

[00:03:39]And I go, "Okay, that's good, but you've got to expand your reading. If not, they'll read self-help books." Yeah.

[00:03:46]>> But I don't think we're any different from any other country.

[00:03:49]>> Why do you think reading is so important?

[00:03:52]>> I tell you this that and I'm asking an author.

[00:03:55]>> [laughter] >> No, no. For me, right? When I was growing up, yeah?

[00:03:59]I didn't really have friends, Deborah.

[00:04:01]It's like one moment, oh, we're going off to another country. Ah. So happy.

[00:04:04]>> Again, moving again, losing friends, having to make friends.

[00:04:08]>> So, I had books. I had no choice.

[00:04:10]>> Mhm. And, you know, um >> I had no choice. I said, "Okay, love."

[00:04:15]And that actually became my friend.

[00:04:17]>> Yeah.

[00:04:18]>> The books. But, I also think this. I keep telling him one that I know sometimes travel is very expensive.

[00:04:25]Yeah. But, if you read this book, even travel books, you actually get to go to these countries without >> Yeah. Your imagination.

[00:04:31]>> It expands your mind. You know that.

[00:04:33]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:34]>> I feel that when you read books, you're imaginative, and you're also very curious, and we need these two.

[00:04:43]>> So, I was a reader growing up.

[00:04:45]>> Yeah.

[00:04:46]>> And then I stopped for a good few years, and then I only started back in my maybe late teens.

[00:04:50]>> Yeah.

[00:04:50]>> And that was when I was really into like politics and uh development work, and I was obsessed with reading biographies.

[00:04:57]>> Yeah.

[00:04:57]>> And I would read about like genocides and war and all these very dark and depressing uh topics.

[00:05:03]>> Yeah.

[00:05:04]>> So, in my in my reading and understanding, you know, why did a genocide happen? Why did a civil war happen in Cambodia or in China and all these tyrants?

[00:05:12]You look at a lot of authoritarian regimes. You look at like Mao's China, Nazi Germany, Pol Pot Cambodia. And they were all educated people, very learned people, often spoke more than one language, were educated abroad, if I'm not wrong.

[00:05:27]But, what they all did was, unintentionally, they all burned and or banned books. So, they knew the power of reading, and they wanted to control the narrative. Fast forward today, 2026, we still see this happening um in many countries around the world, where governments are still trying to control the narrative and still trying to uh decide what what is good and what is not good for society. But, we also live in a very digital world where it is getting harder and harder to control information. People have access to the internet.

[00:06:02]All kinds of information, whether it's also right or wrong. And that's led us into the whole different discussion on misinformation. But, the question is you know, govern Why are governments still trying to control the narrative when it comes to information? And clearly there's a power there, right?

[00:06:20]>> Okay. I think How do I see this, huh?

[00:06:26]At the most simplest basic level, right?

[00:06:29]Governments are made out of human beings.

[00:06:32]And then, you know, we were just talking about I won't tell you about the situation, right? But, people were angry were asking me why is it so-and-so before he ascended to a certain level in his life, he was quite normal.

[00:06:46]>> Yes.

[00:06:46]>> that he's there, >> Yes.

[00:06:48]>> it's all about controlling things about I need to put out this positive narrative about myself. Blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:06:56]At the end of the day, human beings, right? We are very egotistical.

[00:07:00]We want power. We want to be seen that we are power. And once you're at that level, it's very difficult to come down.

[00:07:07]>> Mhm.

[00:07:07]>> So, when you talk about governments, right? You're like, "Whoa, we are now ruling this country, etc." When you're at the top, it's not easy for you to control the masses. You're like, "Okay, the only way we can do this is Okay, like elections come and go and all that. It's to control how they think. So, we put all these cages around that. You can't read this book. You can't think this way. We'll put up all these laws that say if you say this, you go off to jail."

[00:07:34]That to me is a form of control because they want the status quo.

[00:07:37]>> Mhm.

[00:07:38]>> And I I think that, you know, with our last elections, right? When everyone's going, "Oh, you know, better luck.

[00:07:43]TikTok has to be banned and all."

[00:07:45]I think human beings, especially kids, young people who live in a digital era, right? And even adults, like my mom believes everything on WhatsApp. And you're like, "No, Mommy." You're like, "Don't forward that post."

[00:07:57]The fact is, when you put limitations on people's thinking, reading, etc., on access information, right?

[00:08:04]Human beings make human beings, we will always find a way. Yeah? Like, "Okay, you say this. Let me find out whether it's true." I mean, I have had these discussions with my mom. She'll send me all these things from YouTube and all about religious addicts and all. I say, "Mama, this is not a proper ustaz."

[00:08:21]Ustaz, right? Well, I don't like this ustaz.

[00:08:24]He's so blah blah blah blah. So, I'll go on to YouTube. And that is a very simple example of how people are saying, "We don't trust the so-called confirmed uh legal information. We want to find the truth that sits with us."

[00:08:40]>> Right.

[00:08:40]>> So, you can't stop YouTube. You can't stop WhatsApp. You can't stop TikTok.

[00:08:45]People will find out things that they want to find out.

[00:08:48]And I think it's going to be very, very difficult. I'm not saying I agree with total, total freedom, because you know about misinformation, horrible things on the internet, you know, like TikTok and all that, right? But that needs to be or say, that needs to be monitored.

[00:09:03]>> Yes.

[00:09:04]>> Right? And I believe like in TikTok and all these tech companies, they have a team that takes down, right?

[00:09:09]But having said that, I think it's a human right for us to have access to information.

[00:09:14]>> Yes.

[00:09:15]>> Yeah.

[00:09:15]>> Whether someone agrees with it or not is is a different thing. But I always say reading is one of the biggest forms of resistance or rebellion.

[00:09:23]>> Oh, yeah. I agree with that, you know.

[00:09:24]>> So, your first book, I Am Muslim, you wrote this quite a few years ago. And you say it was a selfish journey of faith. You went out to meet shamans, nationalists, moderates, every kind of character to figure out what your faith, Islam, actually means to many Malaysian Muslims, right? And and and I think it came from a place um your place of confusion or curiosity as well, trying to figure out uh what your faith meant to you. So, what did you discover in writing this book?

[00:09:57]And also, how did people engage How did people engage with this book? Cuz it's it's going to it's going to clearly push people's buttons, right?

[00:10:04]>> So, the backstory I was doing my master's in England.

[00:10:08]And I have this aunt grand aunt, right?

[00:10:10]Who was married to a German.

[00:10:11]So, she said, "What are you doing for Christmas?" I don't know. Okay, come on.

[00:10:15]Let's go off to Germany. You're going to meet your cousin, Mark. So, I went there, right? Like, I'm always up for an adventure. I met Mark.

[00:10:22]And he says, "You know, what are you doing now?" I said, "Oh, that time it was around December, but it was Ramadan."

[00:10:29]So, I fasted, you know, even though it was very cold. Then he said, "You're fasting?" I said, "Yeah."

[00:10:35]>> [laughter] >> I was quite stupid, okay, at that time.

[00:10:37]So, I went, "You're not fasting?" "No."

[00:10:40]And he said, "Are you a practicing Muslim?" And I said, "I'm trying my best."

[00:10:44]And he says, "I'm not." So, I just went, "Ooh." I didn't have I've never met You didn't have that reference point before. Well, I didn't have a relative who was a freethinker, so I got quite excited. I was like, like, "Ooh, this is interesting." So, then we went to the pub. So, he got me a carrot to buka puasa. Can you imagine you buka puasa with a carrot, right? I was like, "Oh, this is yummy."

[00:11:05]But we talked. We talked about it. He says, "You know, Dina, I'm German. I'm German first. And that is beyond my faith, beyond everything, cuz religion is personal."

[00:11:16]And I went, "Okay." And then after that, during Christmas, right up to New Year, I went around Berlin with him. We went to a punk concert. I remember this. I like music, yeah?

[00:11:28]And I met so many Malaysians whose parents took the boat to go to England, to go to Germany, yeah?

[00:11:35]And uh and they married Germans, English, etc. And the kids, you know, they were really lovely, but they were like, "We don't speak Malay. We don't speak English.

[00:11:46]We're Germans first."

[00:11:48]But I spoke to the parents.

[00:11:50]And for me, I was like, "Oh, this is absolutely wonderful. I've never met Malays like this before." Because even though Bach traveled here and there, the Malaysians I met were Malaysians, like all of us in this room, right? But not these, you know. I mean, I have cousins who are like, you know, half Italian, half Thai, and all that, but these issues were never brought up.

[00:12:13]Then when I got back to England, you know, it was term time and all that. So, before I get back to the the main question was I took the bus to Sainsbury's. Then I saw all these kids, right, wearing these cone hats and all, and I said, "You think you're the Malay you girl?"

[00:12:29]And you were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are going off to this tarik cat in Manchester." And I went, "Oh."

[00:12:35]I said, "Well, what are you doing? Can I follow?" No, that bully.

[00:12:39]And they thought I was Chinese.

[00:12:41]But I spoke to the guy all the way to Sainsbury's, and he told me, "Okay, you know, because I'm in England, I need to have this face thing, you know? Because, you know, I might just become wild, like all these smart salis." And I went, "It it doesn't matter for me. People tell me all the deepest, darkest secrets." And that has helped me.

[00:12:58]So, when I came back, I wrote. I was with Melissa Kinny then.

[00:13:03]Every one of the staff had to have a column. So, I panicked. I went, "Oh, What [laughter] the hell was I going to do? What to write? I have no opinion.

[00:13:11]I'm just here to be an editor, right?"

[00:13:14]Then I just took Steven, Steven Gan, Premish Chandran. Okay.

[00:13:18]Um I think I have a column. Okay, write it lah. Yeah. And actually, that's how I am Muslim came about. I had this friend, Timmy. He had this blog called the Pick Cyclist. It was really funny.

[00:13:31]I was like, "Timmy, what are you going to do?" He was like, "Why don't you interview me?"

[00:13:34]And I was like, "All right." So, he had just turned 40 and he said, "You see, Dina, there is a Hadith." He said to me then, "that once you turn 40, if you don't turn back your life, then that's it. So, if you've been like me, a hedonist, etc., etc., womanizing and all, if I don't change my ways, I'll be like this till the day I die and no, I don't want to go to hell."

[00:13:55]So, that was the first chapter for I Am Muslim.

[00:13:58]So, after that, I thought, "Oh, this is quite funny." Um I will just interview people. And actually, at that time, Deborah, people were so open and very giving, very welcoming. I got this auntie, "You go lah, you go interview."

[00:14:13]Um I brought some friends along to the interviews and they were like, "Uh, where do you find all these crazy people?" And I said, "I don't see them as crazy. They're Malaysians.

[00:14:25]They just happen to live like this, you know?" And I mean, I went to people who lived in Damansara Heights. I went to people who live in Taman Mayang.

[00:14:34]I met men who claimed they had chopped off the heads of the Chinese during May 13th. But when I met them, they were all old and holding canes and like, "You sure you did all these things, you know?"

[00:14:45]I'm always surprised.

[00:14:47]And how was the reaction?

[00:14:49]It's very interesting. So, I wrote this on Malaysiakini first.

[00:14:53]So, Malaysiakini is basically you're preaching to the converted. Everyone's like, they thought that way. They had the money, okay? It's not much to subscribe to Malaysiakini, but they had that money to support, right?

[00:15:05]But when the book came out, I said, "My God, I never knew Malaysians were this nuts."

[00:15:10]Um you know, I had threats, right? "How dare you write about this?" And I'm like, "Oh."

[00:15:16]Um I was like, "Where do you think that comes from?" That So, I I feel like identity Identity is a very interesting thing. We Okay.

[00:15:24]Can you maybe unpack? What does it mean?

[00:15:26]Why Why do humans hold on to identity so much? And then you know, you said earlier like your your cousin, for him German I'm German first above and all else, right?

[00:15:36]For us in Malaysia, it interplays between I think race, religion, nationality >> All right.

[00:15:41]>> and other But why do we hold on to it so much?

[00:15:45]>> I think for the Malay Muslims in Malaysia, right? There's a saying, "Jangan buka aib orang." That means do not lift up the person's flaws or faults, right? So, I come in and write all these things that a lot of >> exposes >> exposes, you know? And you're like, "How can you expose this that we Malays actually go to bomohs?" I mean, they still do, you know? Uh they still do this. They do I mean And at that time they were saying that we cannot let other people know that this is what we Malays are. And I'm going, "Why aren't you proud of it?" I mean, to me it's this. Yes, it can be a quirky thing. It can be something that people like, "Oh my god." You know? But this is human life.

[00:16:27]>> Right.

[00:16:28]>> And I think I tried to capture that with my second book, which was I mean, it's there.

[00:16:33]Holy Men, Holy Women. So, I If you don't mind me just talking a bit about that.

[00:16:37]After dealing with I Am Muslim, I thought, "You know, I'm sure this is not something that we Malay Muslims deal with." I I think that non-Muslims also go through all this. So, I It was fun. I think, to be honest, Holy Men, Holy Women was my favorite book cuz I went all around Malaysia. I went to Sabah. I went to Sarawak.

[00:16:56]And I just said, "Oh, this is so wonderful." And they all had the same things like You know, "Tulis pasal apa?"

[00:17:03]You know, in in Sarawak, right? Uh "Kalau you cakap Melayu, don't use my name."

[00:17:07]>> Mhm.

[00:17:07]>> Uh when it came out, I had people writing. At that time I was with Malaysian Insider like, "Uh You shouldn't be doing exposing people. We Christians are like this."

[00:17:15]Cuz I interviewed the Carmelite nuns. I tell you they were some of my favorite people. They were so nice and I spoke through a door because they took this covenant of we will not see you.

[00:17:25]>> a vow of like not >> communicating with people.

[00:17:28]>> I spoke through a door with a hole and I'm like, "Eh, what can I see?" And one of them said, "Do you think you could get me Gardena chocolate muffins?" So every time I went there, I did. And I wrote about that.

[00:17:40]And some people were like, "You shouldn't have written about them because they were a secret to even the Christian community." Then I'm going, "Wow, this is so I think the reason why we Malaysians overall, right?

[00:17:56]We don't like the buka aib, lift the veil of our pride. Maybe it's because we're Asians. We don't talk about things like this, you know.

[00:18:03]And maybe I have Okay, I think I have offended a lot of people. So I'm going to just put it out there.

[00:18:08]>> [laughter] >> But I thought I think we need to know how we all live to understand each other, you know. I had a friend who said this. Uh especially when my book Malayaland came out.

[00:18:19]Ooh, you got to go to do this, right? Uh you interviewed all those silat silat people, the tanjak boys, right? Why don't you just interview Malays like us?

[00:18:29]So actually us, like us.

[00:18:30]>> Who's that?

[00:18:31]>> Yeah. Malays like us are like, "Who, you know?" You know, like you and me. You know, we are English educated. So I just sat there, Deborah, and I'm going, "Wow, macam Melayu fikir, kan?"

[00:18:42]>> Mhm.

[00:18:43]>> And I said Malaysia is not made up of Malays like you or Chinese like you or Indians like you. And that's why I keep saying, it's a class thing, you know.

[00:18:53]Because I have I mean we talked about it earlier, right? I mean, I had Chinese friends who said, "Do you think they'll help us with this Chinese Oh, no, no, we don't deal with that, you know, because that's not our world." We've got this lovely life.

[00:19:07]We don't want to know what's happening because And on that note, I think I understand why people are like this, especially for the minority Malaysians, right? You've worked so hard to create this utopia, you know? You fought incredibly hard.

[00:19:24]You know, you face racism when you're young, your parents, your grandparents, you know? So, once you've got that country club, the private schools, a fantastic life, it's like I've made this, don't enter it. I don't want to know. And it's very convenient, and it's also, you know, one less problem. Because at the end of the day, I will try my best to build this wealth for killer one or two generations, or at least the kids go abroad and never come back.

[00:19:49]>> Yes.

[00:19:50]>> And even for the Malays, especially Malays of a certain class, right? We don't want to inconvenience us to know all this. That by Allah, right about this poor Malays, they're still going to be poor, they're still stupid. And you go wow, people are openly prejudiced. So, I think the point is it's not it's not between races, but really we say this about we say this within our own races, we say this about each other, and it it really goes down to your socioeconomic class. The have, the have nots.

[00:20:19]>> Look, I had this, okay? And it came from a friend who I would say is a non-Malay Malaysian.

[00:20:25]It with that person I said I went Allah people actually can say this.

[00:20:30]And I wanted to ask, but aren't you one?

[00:20:32]But I was so stumped. I said, "Oh, don't deal with those people, they're estate Indians." And I just said it and then I went wow.

[00:20:40]>> Do they actually talk like that about each other?

[00:20:42]>> talk like this. So, of course this goes into my diary, and you go how would I feel if I am that person, as someone who is supposed to advance my community. Cuz I'm an estate Indian. I think that's really wrong.

[00:20:58]Yeah?

[00:21:00]But you know, there's Malaysia, and we talked about this. Yes. Why is racism, why is all this so mainstream?

[00:21:08]But I really feel, you know, you've had an I grew up with that like there's certain things you just don't talk about. It's a shut up kind of thing. Things that are taboo or things that are sensitive. And so you you lose the average Malaysian loses the skill set of how to not only cuz when there's something is not spoken about and you speak about it behind closed doors or with like-minded people, you don't develop the skills to really appreciate, understand, accept, and and to entertain uh uncomfortable and unpleasant moments, right? So the you you know, tell me if you agree with this, but there's a I get the sense of a don't we have it we grew up in an environment where it's don't question your elders, yeah, don't challenge the teacher, don't go against the mainstream. But if you look at you know, you look at countries or societies that innovate, that invent, that build new industries, have new ideas, the one thing they have in common is they're all encouraged to ask why. Oh, they're not afraid to ask why. And why is this it's a central principle in in creating anything. If if you didn't ask why, there wouldn't be electricity, there wouldn't be the internet, there wouldn't be AI. So, how do we as a country, you know, one hand we're looking to the future, we want to be a leader in Southeast Asia in tech and data centers and all of this and startups, but on the other hand the a lot of our systems, our education system, the general narrative is like shut up, sit down, listen. Yeah. Don't don't challenge.

[00:22:33]>> I think education is really really important in this year. I know a lot of people who say that the Malaysian education system is sinking. But I think and again, I will say this, I'm very biased towards my researcher friends, the younger ones, right?

[00:22:48]I think partly because their parents are telling them read books.

[00:22:54]What even if expensive, we'll find a way to get you a book, second hand book, right? And this generation, you know, because they move around. They're okay, the Rubys, the Hudas, the people, the Lian Hongs who run around in my life, right?

[00:23:08]>> Because there's that generation of, well, you know what?

[00:23:12]I kind of want to figure out what this means. So, there's a YouTube, there's a lot of things that they have access.

[00:23:17]They don't need to pay money anymore.

[00:23:18]You can, you know, download PDFs, right?

[00:23:21]And they have friends to make them question.

[00:23:23]Is being Chinese the way I am very different from the way my parents are, which is what demand research is actually saying. Like, Violet wrote this fantastic brief. We're actually very different from our parents and grandparents. We think this way.

[00:23:37]So, I feel that the younger set is actually breaking all the rules, and I'm glad.

[00:23:43]So, I'm on Threads and TikTok, right?

[00:23:45]Okay, I I look at a lot of nonsense.

[00:23:47]>> [laughter] >> But, I just saw this, and I just saw, "Wow, you guys." It started with this.

[00:23:53]The Malays going out to rescue dogs.

[00:23:56]Whether they wear gloves or not, they're like, and they're fighting back. They're like, "We will rescue dogs." And there's a lot of people clapping hands.

[00:24:02]>> Yes.

[00:24:03]>> Now, this is another new trend that I went, "Wow, you girls are very brave, yeah?" You know, because my time, you know, I keep reminding everyone I'm an auntie.

[00:24:12]It would be quiet. So, these are girls, two little girls, right?

[00:24:15]"Why I like Indian boys? Why my boyfriend's Chinese?" And they put out, and you go, and everyone say, "Wow, so handsome." So, this and that. And of course, the Malay boys say that, "You are but" but the girls are saying, "No, no, no, no, no, no. We don't want you.

[00:24:29]We want our Chinese boys, Indian boys."

[00:24:31]And I'm seeing this on Threads. And they're putting their faces there.

[00:24:35]I tell you this, Malay girls in hijab, right? One day, kutuk people.

[00:24:39]>> Better be watch out.

[00:24:40]>> [laughter] >> Well, there was one I've learned this thing, man. Muka dia macam muka baldi.

[00:24:44]You know, you look like the face of a pail. And I said, [laughter] "Oh, I like this insult. I want to adopt this."

[00:24:50]>> What is the face of a pail?

[00:24:52]>> Nothing. [laughter] But, they actually do this, and they say, "This is such a shift."

[00:24:59]You see even young boys now talking about mental health, body dysmorphia, right? And let's not talk about toxic masculinity, cuz that's a different thing altogether. But, the fact is even young men in Malaysia are saying that how we've been brought up is actually not good for us. We're having a lot of confidence issues. We're having And they're talking about this. Malaysia is really a young country, and the young is going to push it.

[00:25:27]>> Yeah.

[00:25:28]>> Okay.

[00:25:28]>> So, talking on about social media, we We're all witnesses to I think Malaysians are very famous for our keyboard keyboard warrior skill. We're able to like when we engage on comments on social media, we go all out. I mean, it it ranges from ridiculously offensive to like we were talking about this earlier, like pure comedy, right? And you literally sit there, watch the read the comments, and have a giggle.

[00:25:54]But, I personally believe that Malaysians The average Malaysian does not know how to debate or argue intelligently. Instead, we descend into personal attacks. And we've seen we've seen this in Parliament. We've seen this you know, at at across the corridors of power, right? So, you recently had a bit of a controversy on on social media.

[00:26:15]And and then you you basically said, and I want to ask you about this, how What is the difference between attacking someone, making it very personal when you don't agree with someone's opinion, and actually engaging to articulate, to use your words, articulate your argument well.

[00:26:31]Teach us. How should How does someone know when they're being emotional and descending into personal attack versus I don't agree with Dina, but I'm going to I'm going to engage and argue based on fact, based on knowledge, and be respectful.

[00:26:48]>> I think, you know, with the advent of the internet, okay, so I was there during Lisa Lim, yeah.

[00:26:54]That was the first time we met keyboard warriors and I remember Steven and friend going, "How are you?"

[00:26:59]>> How do you Where do you begin?

[00:27:01]>> Where do you begin, right? So that was me and I think that was up at two at partner, the other sub-editor across me. I was like, "Partner, what do we do?"

[00:27:11]I went, "Delete that. Delete, delete, delete, you know?"

[00:27:15]I think because it's so new then, right? And even now you see, okay, I don't know how it's like in government schools now, right? I think that if you go to like really good government schools, they know that like all these MCKKs and all, you are taught to articulate your ideas, okay? Because it's one of the stellar government schools.

[00:27:38]>> have Malaysians winning international debate competitions. But the average Malaysian can't seems to struggle with this.

[00:27:45]>> I think it's because of this. One, okay, now I sound like a fuddy-duddy, but my time, Deborah, I I I went to Convent Nanas for a bit.

[00:27:54]Literature, whether it was in Bahasa Malaysia or English, were compulsory.

[00:27:59]Science stream or not, you have to do.

[00:28:01]So I remember we had to memorize Shakespeare, right? We had to act out Hamlet in our school uniforms and all.

[00:28:06]And we had teachers who'd say, "Why did you say that? Why did you?" So we were able to do that. But now everyone's focusing on business, on the sciences, on math, and literature and even history, right? They've been relegated to the back. So people don't know how to argue.

[00:28:23]>> Yeah.

[00:28:24]>> So yeah, I got panned by the readers of the Rakyat Post. So initially I wanted to go to war.

[00:28:28]>> Yes.

[00:28:29]>> [laughter] >> Then I said, "You know what? I can't do this, you know?"

[00:28:33]Uh so I thought, "Let me go through everything." Yeah. And I got Claude AI to go through. Fantastic in this AI thing.

[00:28:41]And I started looking at the pain points of everyone who took potshots at me.

[00:28:46]Okay, one, they're very short, you know, and they're not exactly well informed. You know, it was just basically anti right?

[00:28:54]I think it comes from a point of frustration.

[00:28:57]Right? Because they're not heard in real life. So on the internet, they're like, "Okay, I've got this opportunity.

[00:29:04]Nobody's going to know who I really am.

[00:29:06]So I'm going to just say all these nasty things. To hell with his or her feelings. I'm just going to say it."

[00:29:13]Ultimately, it is about the anger of not being acknowledged in this country.

[00:29:18]That and I as I said earlier, right?

[00:29:21]If you are from a certain class, you go to certain school, you go to St. John's, BBGS and all that. Yeah, you know each other and all and you know, school reunions you meet up. Okay?

[00:29:31]But at the end of the day, if you don't go don't have the same kind of jobs or same income bracket, right?

[00:29:39]Some of the people who don't have much as much as you will fall off the tracks.

[00:29:44]Right?

[00:29:45]So that resentment is there. I've always felt that yes, on internet every multiculturalism Malaysia truly Asia, I do feel it's manufactured.

[00:29:54]You know? It's like I think we're perfect. We live, we coexist with each other.

[00:30:00]But it could be improved. Yeah?

[00:30:03]And looking at all these comments, I said, "Okay, la."

[00:30:08]I'm just a convenient target. I've always been a convenient target. Okay, la. You just live with it.

[00:30:14]But when you look at that, you say, "Actually, they're angry because nobody has ever listened to them."

[00:30:21]>> And there are no avenues >> There are no avenues or Look, I've met some of these readers who took pot shots at me, yeah.

[00:30:28]It was quite funny, you know. Met a few of them.

[00:30:31]And you know what was so shocking?

[00:30:35]Okay, there was one, all right.

[00:30:36]Wow.

[00:30:37]I appeared in a right-wing thing, you know. So I said, "Okay, let's meet." The guy was shocked. "You want to meet me?

[00:30:43]Yeah.

[00:30:44]So I met him.

[00:30:46]An old uncle.

[00:30:48]And what was first was he was my dad's staff.

[00:30:50]Then he said, "I didn't know that your father was my boss."

[00:30:54]So we've actually become friendly.

[00:30:57]And then you realize that as I got to know him I said, I said he said I Okay, he lives in his own little bubble and he's like, "You have to believe this, Dena. Because if we don't do this, Malaysia Malay sia, yeah, is actually going to fall down to all these intruders, colonizers, and like this is 2026."

[00:31:21]And when you look at your leaders or whoever who took pot shots, you know, sometimes that you go, "Hmm."

[00:31:30]You can't get angry with them.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah.

[00:31:32]>> I don't want to sound I don't want to be patronizing, but sometimes you actually could see and you go, "Oh my god, you're you're like this."

[00:31:41]I think that for anyone in the public eye working the kind of work that you do, that I do, right? Though we have to be tough and firm because of what we do is very Ooh, you know, it's stressful, right?

[00:31:55]We need to have compassion, not just for ourselves but for all the people. So I've always held the belief that our country it's a young country, but we need to move away from a race-based politics to policy-based right discussions, [laughter] right? And it was interesting that your studies show that young Malaysians and I believe across all races actually agree with this. They want race-based policies to be dismantled and and many of them feel politics has just become messy. They seem disillusioned by it all and then a lot of them are choosing to just stay away.

[00:32:29]It's messy, it's a show.

[00:32:32]I know I'm being used. I know there's an agenda and I and I want count.

[00:32:37]At the same time, young Malaysians are thinking about their future. They want financial security. They want to be able to thrive. They want a multicultural country.

[00:32:47]Are our leaders not listening to this data? And why why are we still seeing the the leadership machine or the political machine is still one narrative, yet we are saying that all the data is saying that young Malaysians actually want something very, very different. What what's There seems to be a very big gap.

[00:33:04]I think >> this. So, I'm finishing up a paper, right? Which is driving me crazy.

[00:33:10]But, one of the things I wrote about was this, that we had a government change in 2018, okay?

[00:33:18]So, the opposition became the government, all right? So, great. We all voted for that.

[00:33:23]But, I think that, you know, when you're an activist or an activist, but when you become a minister or part of governance, right? It's a different world altogether.

[00:33:32]I do sometimes think, my god, I think they're totally overwhelmed this.

[00:33:36]>> Yeah.

[00:33:37]>> Have any of them actually read policies, road maps, etc., etc.? Because the previous government did that all these 10, 20 years road maps, this is what's going to happen, etc. And I think that let's talk about this recent government. They're new, what, 3, 4 years, yeah?

[00:33:55]They've entered.

[00:33:57]A lot of them have not been in in the government as civil servants at all.

[00:34:04]They're grappling, I feel, you know, like, okay, we know what's going on. You guys I also turn badang and all that, yeah?

[00:34:10]But, the thing is that when you're at the top and now you are seeing all these layers, civil servants and all, right?

[00:34:16]And then you go right down to the ground, you're not able to see all all these layers are actually not blurring you, not hindering you, but you're unable to do what you're supposed to do because there's so many things that you have to do. Once you become a minister, your life is different.

[00:34:36]>> Right.

[00:34:36]>> You know, it's not just about policies.

[00:34:38]You've got to meet, you know, dignitaries from other countries. It's a different life altogether.

[00:34:43]So, you have the government ministries, you know, like the Kementerian Wanita, uh you know, MITI, for example, who do that layering of work and all.

[00:34:54]I sometimes when I observe, and I don't see this on behalf of Iman, I just when I look at this and I go Mhm, someone's not talking to each other because it's not trickling down to the bottom.

[00:35:05]How do we do this? I do talk to my dad about this, you know, about what during your time, how is it like, right? And he said, "Okay, of course we had a prime minister, we had this this this."

[00:35:16]But the civil servants were the cogs in the machine.

[00:35:20]We tell you, we go down, we work with economists, etc. We work with universities, and we go to the minister and say, "This is what you have to do."

[00:35:30]And if you don't do it, this is what's going to happen.

[00:35:33]I don't know whether this is happening now.

[00:35:35]>> So, are you saying that no one is speaking to the youth? The youth are not >> I think that when you people are speaking to the youth, right?

[00:35:44]It's always a select youth.

[00:35:47]Look, if you look look at the Malay youth, right?

[00:35:51]And we published this in The Star.

[00:35:53]Do you know, we got banned for going to gigs, punk concerts, and all. I said, "No, all of you have to go to all these places because that's where the kids scream out their frustration. They do all this like you go." So, >> [laughter] >> it was quite funny, right? I was the only one dancing around. I said, "Oh, hi hi, second dinner, da da da." And the kids are like, "Alamak, we've never met punks in our skinheads in our entire life. What more Malay, you know?"

[00:36:19]You need to go down there and get to know them. Don't use them as vote banks.

[00:36:25]Get to know them and say, "Come on, man, what's going on with your life? Kenapa? you?" So, what do Malaysian youth want?

[00:36:32]I think Malaysian youth wants that that what they want is agency. They want look.

[00:36:36]Like in Kedah, Perlis, when the when the team went there. And while it was predominantly Malay, there were also non-Malays, right? We know we're being used as vote banks. Tiap-tiap kali ada state elections or whatever, are you datang lah. Okay, you pacak this bendera, you get the some money. Okay?

[00:36:53]But when you leave us, this is what we have. And Asif, our research director, he went there with a wife. And when he found out that his spouse is a psychologist, they actually asked her, "Can you teach us how to do mental health?" Yeah. What sikit-sikit?

[00:37:08]But teach us how so that our friends don't get depression.

[00:37:13]They want that. And we're going, "Okay.

[00:37:16]Um is anyone funding you?" Tak ada, but maybe we can do like in our house. So, you see these kids saying, "I want to do this. Just teach us, you know? Empower us. Tell us who we can talk to if you want to make our friends feel better."

[00:37:34]Simple things like this. Now, a lot of people are saying, "Uh, PAS is going to rule us. The right-wing are going to rule us." Now, the right What that's one thing why they possibly may come into power or may have more presence in power.

[00:37:49]They know how to talk to people on the ground. They They don't look down. You say, "You got a problem, all right.

[00:37:56]Let's figure this out, you know?" Yes, I'm an apologist for Terengganu. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, you're from Terengganu year for past. But if you look at Kampung Cina, Terengganu, right? There are places for non-Malays to drink. You can wear your shorts. You can wear your halter neck. Maybe the Terengganu Muslims don't really wear that because, you know, all of us have and it's hot. You can't exactly wear shorts and singlet, you know? You look at sunburn, right? And granted, some of the spaces are being limited more and more now, but ultimately it's all right to live there. I mean, this is something which we always argue in office. Is this like the minority Malaysians like say appeasing the majority? Tak palah, we all Cina, India so sikit, so we just listen to them lah.

[00:38:40]Or is it because they actually okay with this? And that's something we've you know, we're still discussing. Yeah? Then why are there few?

[00:38:50]No Malays there. It's not because of PAS. Even Malays there there's so few in Terengganu and East Coast, in Kelantan because there are no jobs. Mhm. You know, there's a lot of pop-up cafes there.

[00:39:01]>> So like so economics realities matter.

[00:39:05]>> Oh, of course.

[00:39:06]>> Young Young Malaysians want to know if they can earn a decent income, if they can have a decent job, they can build a life, they can travel, they can enjoy life.

[00:39:14]>> Yeah, why not? I think >> Yeah, who's giving who's who's going to offer that to me?

[00:39:17]>> Who's going to offer that? How do I make a business? Recently, I was talking to this young one young girl, single mom from Kedah.

[00:39:24]And you know, I went back I spent the whole night thinking, right? So, I'm in Grab. She's from Kedah. She came here because she said, "I don't have money. In Kedah, there are no jobs. So, I'm doing Grab."

[00:39:35]So, being the makcik that I am, so I said, "Look, why don't you try to recite this doa?" Because that's what Muslims do, right? You recite doa.

[00:39:43]And she said, "How am I going to pray?

[00:39:45]No, baca doa. I don't have time. I've got to work three jobs and I'm a single mom."

[00:39:51]And I went back and I thought to myself That's a aha moment for you. It was an aha moment for me. And you know, I I asked myself, you know, there's this thing like, you know, how people talk this new age thing, surrender to the universe, right?

[00:40:05]And then for the Malays Muslims, you surrender to Allah. But when you are in that predicament, when you are like, "I don't know how to feed my baby, you know, I have this car, but I've got to pay the loans. I live in rented rooms.

[00:40:20]Do you have the energy to surrender to God? I I spent the whole night on going, "Oh, I was such a plonker for saying that. Oh, but at least do I Who the hell am I to say that?" You know?

[00:40:32]Um I also feel this, if before we go this, right? Many, many years ago, I volunteered for Timmy, Dr. Hartini Zainudin. So, I would just tag along, you know, and all that.

[00:40:45]And we dealt with some people who were MPs. And that person said, "The reason why there are so many poor people in Chucky area who were, you know, on substances, selling themselves, you name it, right? Was because they didn't have enough religion." And I'm going, "How can you actually say that?

[00:41:04]These people are poor. I'm sure they pray. I mean, I don't know, right? I mean, they have a >> It's not a It's a complex reality for them, right? There's so many challenges and issues.

[00:41:15]>> So, what do you do? Now, are you going to help them?

[00:41:18]Are you going to help them with jobs?

[00:41:20]Are you going to give them free clinics?

[00:41:22]In the end, it was nothing. It was like more like, "Well, um >> Judgment and >> Judgment and Okay, we're done with that.

[00:41:29]I make gambar click. I make gambar click. We did this.

[00:41:32]And I mean, shortly after that, I moved on cuz I was building up Iman with my friends. And I just said, "Oh, you."

[00:41:40]It's very disheartening when you see people do that. And I would think you know, why You know, people say that Malaysia is so caring. We're very caring towards people abroad. But here, we can be very cruel to our own people and even the refugees living in Malaysia. And you go, "Phew."

[00:42:00]It seems like we disassociate ourselves like, "Okay, we find all these things abroad is easier.

[00:42:07]But back home, not so."

[00:42:10]>> Been in the space for decades, writing books. Yeah.

[00:42:14]>> Um producing so many different research papers, and providing data and hopefully solutions on on what changes need to happen, right? And at the end of the day, policy you speak to policy makers, you speak to decision makers, um and companies and individuals that can actually make a difference, right? So, at this stage in your life, like I appreciate it's hard it's hard work. It can be exhausting mentally. Um you can do you can end up in a situation of hopelessness sometimes, perhaps feeling, "We're doing all of this. We want to see change. Change is not happening fast enough."

[00:42:51]And at this stage in your life now, where you know, what is I'm sure you speak to powers that be. What are the What What are the like, I don't know, top three things you're asking them to do if you can make three changes uh in this country that you think will have the biggest impact on the next generation?

[00:43:10]>> I think in a meaningful way.

[00:43:12]>> What What are they? I can't speak on behalf of other research outfits, right?

[00:43:17]I just don't want us when we present to you that it falls on empty ears, and oh my god, we just met Iman, he said this and nothing happens. You got to do something.

[00:43:27]>> Mhm.

[00:43:27]>> But what are they do is another thing, lah. Yeah?

[00:43:31]What's a thing, yeah. I You know, I always tell my readers this, right?

[00:43:37]I think you should have that adventure around Malaysia.

[00:43:40]>> Mhm.

[00:43:41]>> And just go free flow and figure out what life really is.

[00:43:45]Because I think that's the best way of understanding a country. Remah Rashid did that, right? I don't know whether I did a Remah Rashid, but I said, "Ooh, I I like adventure, you know."

[00:43:56]I think we need that. Uh I really hope anthropology, sociology actually will be picked up by a lot of students now. I see a lot doing business. I I understand there's money in there, right?

[00:44:09]But I hope we do a lot more people actually do this.

[00:44:13]What's the other one?

[00:44:15]>> Policy?

[00:44:16]>> Huh?

[00:44:17]>> Policy-wise.

[00:44:18]>> You know, we write so many policies. Do we act on them? You know, um I think we had great policies before.

[00:44:26]You actually see this being implemented.

[00:44:28]Imperfectly or perfectly, but you see, but You know, Jaber, we all live we all survived through the COVID pandemic, right? We had how many prime minister?

[00:44:37]Four or five?

[00:44:38]>> Lost track.

[00:44:40]>> [laughter] >> Which is actually going to come true?

[00:44:44]I just hope that things improve. I I know I sound like this older jaded person, but when I see the young saying, as we discussed, I don't care about funding, I'm going to just do it my I don't care. I'll do this, I'll do that. I want that spirit to be there.

[00:45:01]>> Mhm.

[00:45:03]Well, thank you, Dinar, for chatting with me. Um we could go on for hours.

[00:45:07]>> But I would say uh to people listening to read your book. I Muslim Malay land.

[00:45:13]>> Yes, peace be upon you. Publishers.

[00:45:14]>> to read the holy men and holy women.

[00:45:17]>> You can only find that in Gerak Budaya, you know?

[00:45:19]>> Okay.

[00:45:19]>> Yeah.

[00:45:20]>> Um and I think more I think absolutely, you know, knowledge is power. Uh knowledge is our seeking knowledge is a form of resistance, rebellion to access it, to protect it, and and if anything, it's like learn how to ask learn how to challenge, learn how to ask why and be respectful while doing it, guys.

[00:45:37]>> I think the last thing is this, you know.

[00:45:40]Sometimes I tell my researchers this, you guys, just have fun.

[00:45:45]You are just I think that if you're too serious, it's actually not good for your heart.

[00:45:49]>> That's [laughter] true.

[00:45:50]>> Of course. There's a lot of things you go, huh? How can you do things like this? But you have to have fun. You have to laugh. These two things will actually carry you far. Don't think on Okay, you have to take things but don't make yourself ill. Mhm, >> yeah.

[00:46:05]Thank you.

[00:46:06]>> All right, thank you.