Could a Baptist be a member at All Saints

Ajouté : 2026-05-18

[00:00:10]Well, hello everybody and welcome back to the All Saints podcast. Question for you. Could a Baptist be a member of All Saints Presbyterian Church?

[00:00:21]That might seem to you like a somewhat dumb question. Of course, a Baptist couldn't be a member of a Presbyterian Church. Presbyterian churches believe that babies in Christian families should be baptized and that no profession of faith from them, no verbal profession of faith is required before baptism.

[00:00:41]Whereas Baptists deny that and believe that uh you should wait until the child is old enough to make a believable profession of faith of some kind. Those two approaches to baptism can't live in the same church. ago, you might think a Baptist couldn't be a member of a Presbyterian church. On the other hand, you might think that the question is really too simple to need discussion, but you land on the other side of the equation. Of course, a Baptist could be a member of a Presbyterian church. After all, baptism is a secondary issue, quote unquote, scare quotes scattered all over that one. It can't be that significant.

[00:01:19]The age and even the mode of baptism is not a big deal. Surely it's just a kind of it's something which Christians can just agree to differ over and we should certainly shouldn't let it um be a barrier to church membership.

[00:01:33]Well, it may not surprise you to to hear that neither of those simple or simplistic answers is actually correct.

[00:01:40]At least not in my view. And it's neither of them reflect accurately the practice of all saints Presbyterian Church. What I'd like to do today is to explain what our practice is. Now, in a sense, this is relevant only to a small number of people, and those people know who they are, and they uh will doubtless have had conversations with us as their pastors about this issue in the past.

[00:02:05]Uh, and so why would I record a podcast on it? It seems like a slightly securitous way of aiming at one or two or three people in the church. Why would I not go and talk to them personally?

[00:02:13]Well, the truth is this isn't really aimed at those people. The goal of this really is just to increase our understanding of our polity as a church and of the theology that informs it and to try and get a a a more nuanced and textured and frankly realistic sense of how that theology or who worked out in practice. And just to help you understand what we do here at All Saints.

[00:02:38]So let's uh start with the uh basic facts on the ground. We're a Presbyterian church. What that means is that our doctrinal standards include the reformed confessions, the three forms of unity in particular and of course Westminster confession of faith and those are pedaptist. You read the Westminster confession of faith and it affirms the propriety and biblical character of uh infant baptism.

[00:03:05]So that's the side of the argument that might make you think, yeah, you need to embrace and endorse that to in order to be a member at All Saints. But in fact, of course, those of you who are members at All Saints know that during the membership pledges, you're not required to promise that you uphold every last jot and tit of the Westminster standards or the three forms of unity. Officers at All Saints have a higher standard. As a pastor, I have a higher standard. I have to subscribe to those and indicate where I make exceptions and those exceptions have to be approved by the presbyatory.

[00:03:45]But members of all saints don't need to do that. They need merely to express their um commitment to living and worshiping in a reformed uh Protestant church that whose teaching arises from and is indebted to the teaching of the Protestant Reformation. Uh that there are some basic foundational elements of that which are non-negotiable.

[00:04:07]But the baptism of infants point uh technically speaking it would be possible for uh a baptist that is conscientious evangelical uh Calvinist who thought nonetheless that it was still not appropriate to baptize infants before they can make a profession of faith. it will be possible for such uh family or individuals to be members of all saints Presbyterian Presbyterian Church and indeed we are delighted to have a small number low singledigit number of households uh who take that position. So maybe the conversation just ends there and that's uh we're done with it at that point.

[00:04:46]There's no need for further conversation. Well, actually uh it is helpful to have some further conversation about it because uh both from the practical standpoint that we want members of the congregation and people who are considering the possibility of future membership of the congregation to know where the the lay of the land is. We want you to understand um our approach to this as pastors and as elders, but also it's helpful just in theological terms so that we get a clearer grasp of the issues that are involved.

[00:05:17]So, how would we actually approach this uh subject with um a family that was interested in joining All Saints? Well, one of the first things I'd want to ask is, are you really sure this is the church for you?

[00:05:33]And the reason for that is not because I'm trying to deter anybody from joining All Saints, but because at its heart, this issue is a more significant one than it is commonly thought to be in the broader evangelical world. In the broader evangelical world, at least in the West at this time, it's quite common for questions of sacraments to be sort of pushed off to the side. And once they're pushed off to the side, they can quite easily fall off the table and never get talked about again. And that's a mistake because it turns out that baptism and the Lord's supper really do matter. They don't matter in quite the same way as questions of what must I do to be saved? Believe and trust on the Lord Jesus Christ matter, but they still matter.

[00:06:21]And for that reason, it's important for us to ask the question, are you sure this is a church for you? And quite often, I say often, it's not been that many families with whom I've had this conversation, but it's been a few. And and the the answer that comes back most commonly is something like this. Well, yeah, we we do agree. We we see things the same way as you guys at All Saints on all these other issues that the shape the overall theological shape of your convictions and ours are are very very similar. just on this one point where, you know, we've been moving in our theology, but maybe they might say we're not quite there yet. Or we we we are um conscientious 1689 reformed Baptists with a postmillennial and high liturggical uh twinge to it. And and so we feel like we really fit here and it's just this one issue. Now, if that's the case, then God bless you. It's very likely that All Saints is going to be a good church for you. But what that highlights the the form of that answer to the question highlights the reason or one reason why it's important to push a bit more deeply on this question because everything's connected to everything else in theology. If you tweak one bit of your theological system over here, eventually you feel the ripples of it downstream over there. And the reason for asking the question, are you sure this is the right church for you? and probing a little bit more deeply is to begin a conversation about okay what are the reasons why you take this view that you do on pedaptism or strictly antipedaptism uh and it's quite possible that you uncover the reasons and you discover either they're really really bad reasons uh or you discover that they're reasons which are connected to a broader theological matrix which means really this isn't going to be a great church for you. It's not just that you're not in the same place as us on infant baptism, but that has echoes through covenant theology and esquetology and it has echoes through the way that you conceive of your family life and the way you want to think about your children as they're unbelievers and we need to evangelize them and the the not just the theological structure but the structure of pastoral theology and Christian piety starts to look very very different from what it is that we embrace here at All Saints. So, what that means is actually if you are a member at All Saints and you happen to know the one or two or three families in the church, you think actually I've noticed they've not had their kid baptized. Um, and you get to talk to them and they're like, "Yeah, no, we're we're Baptists." The reason that they're members is because there is that alignment in the broader structure of theology and this one locus, this one point of theology on on infant baptism or not infant baptism uh doesn't indicate a broader disagreement. And that's why we're of course absolutely delighted to have those people as members of the church here. Now I'm conscious that this is a podcast as you know for members of all saints but occasionally uh people from outside all saints uh even perhaps some people who are considering joining all saints will find themselves listening to this and perhaps this is one of the ways in which you reach the conclusion that um uh this is a church you at least want to investigate and get to know a little bit better. So what can you expect if you if you're a reformed Baptist and you're looking for a new church and you think all saints seems to be more or less in the kind of place on the theological map that you'd feel comfortable but you're not sure what this baptism thing is going to involve. It would involve all those questions cuz we want to make sure that there is a good fit here. But it would also involve something else as a member here. Let's suppose you joined and you've got one or two kids or you've not got any kids but the Lord blesses you down the line with um marriage if you're not married and then perhaps children. You can expect us as pastors from time to time to uh grab you on a Sunday morning or to send you an email or drop you a text message and say, "Hey, we've not had a conversation about uh baptizing your children. Uh we'd just like to surface this conversation again." and uh open up the subject with you just to see if we can encourage you to rethink your convictions, see if you've been doing any more thinking about it, seeing if any new questions have arisen in your minds.

[00:10:46]And this touches on uh the heart of the issue from our perspective as pastors.

[00:10:51]Uh the baptism of infants really does matter. It is a really important thing.

[00:10:55]It's a really precious thing.

[00:10:58]And while we don't want to push it to the point where it becomes uncomfortable for members of our congregation here at All Saints who hold Baptist convictions.

[00:11:11]Neither do we want to give anybody the impression that well once you've kind of raised the I'm a Baptist flag that's the kryptonite that the pastors now can't touch. No, it's very much not the kryptonite and it's very much something we do want to talk about with you. So, if this is you, either a member at All Saints or you're not a member at All Saints and you're thinking about uh joining, please don't be put off by this and please don't uh be hesitant about it, but open up this conversation with us. Take the initiative and and let us know your convictions uh so that we can talk with you about it. We care for you. We love you. As pastors at All Saints, we are committed to personally and by our ordination vows to shepherd you as the flock of God that's under our care here at All Saints. And certainly um members here, that applies to you. And if you were to join in the future, that would apply to you. And we want to hear your questions.

[00:12:08]We want to listen to the thoughts you have. And we want to have the opportunity to lead you along the way towards what we think is uh a more biblically grounded and pastorally helpful and uh theologically secure theological framework. We don't want it to get in the way of fellowship. We don't want it to exclude people who would fit in really well here at All Saints. But we are committed as pastors to helping you grow in every way, including in those ways where there's that kind of well- definfined theological distinction between us.

[00:12:45]So just to come back to where we started, could you be a member at All Saints if you were, let's say, a conscientious Calvinist postmill 1689 London Baptist Confession type of Baptist? The answer is yes.

[00:13:01]And yet we'd want to talk with you about that and make sure that we understood where you're coming from. And then over the months and over the years, perhaps not not even every year, but every year or two or three, just raise that conversation with you. And what we'd love to see is either over time your convictions change because we hope that our teaching and the pattern of life here has some uh impact on you. Or perhaps what would happen is, you know, you began at the point where you really were thinking that your child should be 10, 12, 14, 16 before their profession of faith can be taken seriously. and you get to the point where you're I I like to say the kind of Baptist I can really get along with. Someone who's willing to uh take seriously the profession of faith of a four-year-old and your child is growing up year by year and your theology is shifting year by year and eventually you get to a point where there's a sort of meeting in the middle.

[00:14:04]You're still Baptist technically, but what you're ready to hear as a profession of faith from your child is something that is uh well to put it slightly provocatively the kind of profession of faith that the little children would give to Jesus when they were brought to him. Uh this is a way of us living faithfully at this stage of history where we are striving for maturity in the faith, striving for unity in the faith, but we realize we're not there yet. And so we want to push ourselves. We want to strive for uh growth in theological clarity and faithfulness. And yet we don't want to be theological perfectionists and box tickers. Uh we want to be the kind of church where there are those uh conscientiously held, graciously articulated differences of opinion which are able to live together pursuing the same goal even as we all strive for the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the son of God.

[00:15:05]Ephesians 4.

[00:15:07]So there's the answer. Longer than you might have expected, but hopefully nonetheless helpful to the question.

[00:15:13]Could a Baptist be a member of All Saints Presbyterian Church? God bless and bye for now.