Successful television shows require creative vision and commitment to artistic choices, as demonstrated by Widow's Bay's ability to maintain consistent tonal balance across multiple directors and its willingness to take creative risks like the 300-year flashback episode. The show's success comes from confident creative decisions rather than compromise, showing that television excellence depends on showrunners who can balance horror, comedy, and emotional drama while maintaining a unique identity.
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‘Spider-Noir’ Is Unsure of Itself. Plus,‘Widow’s Bay’ E6-7, ‘Euphoria’ S3E7, and ‘Top Chef’ S23E12.Ajouté :
This episode of The Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same Day Delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. I need sports staff to clear the room.
>> Stand up and walk now.
>> Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ry and I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio wondering if Amish Linklater can play stretch four for the Sixers, it's Andy Greenwald.
Look at the way you wo it together.
>> Yeah, all of our interests. Widow's Bay, the Philadelphia 76ers.
Free agency. It's great to see you. Uh, today on the menu, let me tell you a little bit how we do things at this restaurant.
>> Yeah, great.
>> It's small plates. They're meant to be shared. It's farm to table.
>> How many do we need per diner?
>> We're going to do uh the most recent two episodes of Widow's Bay, which both came out this week.
>> I'm going to stop you before you even start. We're gonna do the last four episodes of Widow's Bay because we're not on the record together about any of them since episode three.
>> Oh, so you obviously didn't listen to any of my monologuing.
>> No, I heard that you did it. I said we're not on the record.
>> Um, and we also are going to talk about Spider Noir. We're going to talk about the most recent episode of Euphoria and the most recent episode of Top Chef.
>> Man, >> I also have some news at the top, but it's been a minute. It's been a minute since I've seen your your beautiful visage in person.
>> You've been traveling a lot. Not that much really. I I mean I took two trips within the United States.
>> Two trips within the United States within the last two weeks. That's traveling a lot.
>> That is traveling a lot. I did it.
Pacific Northwest. And uh >> what are you trying to hide?
>> What have I do? I'm just raising a lot of money, you know.
>> That's you're bundling.
>> Yeah, exactly. Um it's great to see you.
You can reach us at the watch at spotify.com. I noticed we just got a flood of of new emails. Every once in a while, I got to tell you, we're getting to the point where we might be able to do a Andy only effinggers only mailbag.
Stop it.
>> But it's all just people being like, I'm going to read Effingers, too.
>> Yeah. Well, there's a I see a lot of uh gun. I don't see a lot of actual like page turning. You know what I mean?
>> Um you can follow us on Instagram at the WatchPod_. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer-TV channel where we're there with the Prestige TV Pod. And you can watch us on Spotify where I hope you'll listen to us, but we're also available elsewhere where you w listen to podcasts.
>> Is our email address has anyone signed it up for any like act blue emails or recurring donations?
>> No, doesn't seem like it. I mean, I do get a lot of like I feel like I've seen an uptick in like random PR emails where I'm like, you don't know your audience.
Like, >> would you guys be interested in covering the Iron Man race, but not not Tony Stark, but like guys who have to run, swim, and bike. I thought it was going to be Tony Stark versus like Iron Hart, you know what I mean? Versus War Machine.
>> I always uh kind of had a sneaking suspicion that I might be able to do an Iron Man.
>> Okay, hold on. This is the earliest time I've ever closed my laptop >> just in the I can do all three things.
>> I had you know what, >> but I can't I don't know if I could how long I could do them. Is there like a like an Iron Men for softies? You know, like soft batch >> iron boys.
>> Iron boy.
>> An iron boy competition where you get on a little iron boy competition. I can look.
>> Wait, wait. When was the first time >> an island somewhere?
>> When was the first time? Careful. The the first time you ever learned about the Iron Man competition as a >> ESPN, >> right? So, basically, I want to I'm going to ventriloquize this for you. I feel like we probably had a similar experience like maybe you're home from school one day and you turn on the OO or ESPN dose at like 2:35 p.m. on it >> was on flagship but they didn't always have college football bro like show some crazy [ __ ] >> and you would just see someone like weeping >> running in a speedo >> you know which is usually would be cinemax at 11:30 p.m.
But it was also for exactly the reason you said I can physically do those.
>> Yeah. I was kind of like it actually seems like it would be refreshing to take a dip after you know what else I thought was really good about it. I thought the order was reasonable.
>> So what is it? It goes swim bike run.
>> Yeah, I think that's what it was.
Someone can Google that. Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about it is like, wouldn't I get a little chilly on the bike after getting out of the ocean?
>> Yeah. Because my only reference to this wasn't that sports were hard and I wasn't qualified to do them. It was my favorite feeling isn't getting out of the ocean. I'd love to like drive for a little bit so I don't chafe. But 100% you have locked in on something that I haven't thought about in decades, which at no point did I think I'll never be able to do that. I was like, "Oh, that's something to put on my list."
>> I think as only children, we had no toutelage. Our fathers, they turned their backs on us at an early age.
>> Certainly athletically, >> but I didn't have an older brother to be like, "This is how you bowl." So, a lot of what I do, much like Natasha Henridge and Species, is mimicry, you know, and so you see someone >> you say is very sexual and violent at the end, but okay, your version works too. Um, I would watch a guy bowl on ESPN and if there was a bowling birthday party, >> I would do like an elaborate like kind of [ __ ] >> You would go for a spin.
>> Yeah. I would be the Jesus and I would like throw a ball six lanes left because >> yeah, >> I'm not like a professional bowler and I'm not an iron man, but I probably would start really strong. The other thing, and I'm sorry to delay on on the wide world of sports that we're going to talk about today, >> this is more interesting than the last two episodes of Euphoria.
>> It makes it seem I I'm I'm kind of under the impression that we've made like great leaps in protein intake in the last seven years.
>> But like you and Craig or like who?
>> No, just like gels, bars, all those things.
>> Like you could put it into more. But did like guys back then if they needed protein during like a race like just eat turkey or what would they do? Like >> the pace car for the Iron Man triathlon was the Oscar Meyer wiener mobile and it would drive alongside the athletes and the athletes would take ham and salami and they would eat it and then they would light a cigarette.
>> Yeah.
>> As they ran.
>> Yeah.
>> It was a pure time. Here's the secret.
Everybody was fine.
>> Yeah. No, I know.
>> Everybody was fine.
>> Those guys all lived forever.
>> Didn't Did they? I don't know.
>> Their hearts exploded in Maui >> when they were like, "You're too old for this." And they're like, "I'm 25."
>> Well, there was that Dennis Larry bit for a while where it's always like joggers joggers who die of heart attacks.
>> Oh, no. That was about joggers get hit by buses. Never mind. Um, >> you could you could iterate.
>> I could I have a lot I have I I feel like I have a Dennis Liryesque quality to me sometimes.
>> You've both been in Boston.
>> Yeah, I've been to Boston.
>> You're wearing denim. You secretly want to be a a dramatic actor.
>> I do.
>> I do.
>> You love firemen. Should I stop?
>> What do you want to start with news-wise? So, we have >> That was exhilarating. I don't care what we do now.
>> Okay. So, I have one thing to for for you, which is a new segment I'm introducing to the Watch Podcast.
>> Oh, and just, you know, for first time listeners, of which there I'm sure there are zero, as with every other segment.
>> This will be a consistent staple for two weeks of this show.
>> And I've never been prepped on it.
>> Yeah. Well, often >> here's here's a behind the curtain behind the curtain. I will be like, "It's time for us to do this segment >> and you're like, I don't have like remember I'm like, oh, what are we reading this week?" Like, or watch of the week. What did we watch this weekend? And you'd be like, "Nothing.
>> I didn't do anything." And then you Instagram and you're like, "Look at this cool book I read." You know?
>> Yeah. Because >> I think you save a little bit of your stuff for IG.
>> That's for my personal brand.
>> That's right.
>> Which is floundering. So, if you could give me a cosign.
>> So, here's our new segment.
>> Yeah.
>> It's called Your Silence is deafening.
>> This is great. This is great. I'm already in on this.
>> It's been 48 whole hours.
>> We say this to each other all the time on this.
>> You have not publicly commented on Tom Hardy's exile from Modland.
not publicly, but I've been huddling with my team >> trying to craft the correct response because >> So, while you spin your wheels trying to decide how you're going to phrase this >> because to be clear, I did prep a statement, but it was it was flagged.
>> It it it it was really came in too hard.
>> Um, for folks that don't know, Mobland is a show on Paramount Plus. uh was created by Ronan Bennett who did Top Boy and then taken over showrun and executive produced written by Jez Butterworth who also does a show we're going to discuss in a second called The Agency and Jez Butterworth is an accomplished screenwriter and playwright in England.
>> Uh he apparently according to reports had a falling out with Tom Hardy which is not the first time this has happened with Tom Hardy. the second season of Mob Land is completed and it was announced strangely I thought since I don't think the third season has been renewed or green lit that Tom Hardy would no longer be on the show that there was some sort of ultimatum >> uh Butterworth or Hardy and it seems like Jez Butterworth had won that fight.
Then hilariously I think >> a lot of like leaked kind of accounts of Tom Hardy behavior. Yes. some I saw some counternarratives flying around certain circles. Yeah.
>> And then uh as of today, the last thing I saw was that and this is not from a like super reputable source >> was that there is some efforts to bring Hardy back into the fold.
>> Oh, who's leading that charge?
>> Uh who's leading that charge in the media or who's leading that charge like to do that? I think David Glasser who is like the kind of right >> 101 Studios Empressario who also oversees a lot of Taylor Sheridan stuff.
Everybody's waiting. Where do you land?
Mirin or Hardy?
>> Oh. Oh, I'm on the clock now. Wait, so you're you as one of the media's biggest Tom Hardy boosters.
>> If anybody's ever listened to me, they're going to know.
>> Yeah.
>> Look, it is what it is. If you sign Tom Hardy up, man, you sign up for the whole ride. You can't get off midway.
>> I would say >> take off after season two.
>> There are certain things. This is I I've been referencing this a lot because I love it and he's been saying this for years, but our our friend and colleague Brian Curtis's Now they tell us. Yes.
Notebook dump, which is the piece that appears after a coach is fired or someone is at the end of the season.
>> Yes. And suddenly like all the reporting that they didn't feel they could they could source or verify or even report on freely, they can now say because that person is out of the building.
>> The oppo dump for the big anti-T Hardy lobby was locked and loaded. Yes, >> this is not a secret that he is challenging in the workplace, >> read Kobby Buchanan's Fury Road book.
>> Yes. And so I while I appreciate your baneism >> or join the rest of us in not watching Taboo. I think that uh I I'm just curious. I'm going to float a hypothetical for you.
>> Okay.
>> Let's say that you were scheduled to do a podcast with me and at the appointed hour you arrived, sat down, and I was nowhere to be seen. Now, so far this is not a hypothetical. This is every week other than today.
>> Yeah. But then you come bustling in three minutes late and you're just like, "Apologies, apologies."
So what I sound like Jesus, so sorry everyone, there was a horrid mess on the tube this morning. Uh Tom Hardy, according to the the the accounts in Kyle Buchanan's book, left um left Charlie's Theren sitting in the I believe the term is war rig.
>> Yeah. for three hours before sauntering onto set.
>> Well, I think he was trying to locate his voice, you know? Uh he was trying to get >> What do you locate? It's always at the bottom of an old well.
>> It's always the same voice. What are you talking about?
>> I just like I think Holly I I don't want anybody to get their uh feelings hurt or be be in any kind of physical danger. I do find stories of onset like you know >> sure >> you know cultural or personality clashes to be pretty interesting to read about.
If if Hollywood never had any of those it would be a little bit less interesting to read about.
>> Okay, that's fair. It's just >> I don't know. Do are you that concerned about the third season of Mob Land?
>> No. And I I didn't really like the first season of Mob Land that much. I mean I I I watched I think I finished it. I can't remember. But it was just one of those things that I I knocked out like two episodes on a plane ride kind of thing after the first couple of episodes. And I love that cast and I think >> yeah, >> you know, it's been a strange show. It was supposed to was initially the idea was it was going to be a don the Ray Donovan >> spin-off.
>> Then I think it kind of mutated into half gangs of London half Yellowstone set, you know, in London with this crime family. And some of the reporting suggests Hardy's been a little bit agrieved by the fact that it went from being a Tom Hardy show to a Tom Hardy Pierce Brosman Helen Mirren show >> and it sounds like he and Mirren specifically are butting heads.
>> I allegedly >> I mean what >> Big Mirren getting in getting her litigation bag against me.
>> What if um yeah Helen Mirren doesn't care about what we say but her husband Taylor Hackford is incredibly latigious and a longtime listener of the >> I'm not entirely sure that's the case.
Telmir may very well care what I say.
>> You're Wow. You've changed it since your trip.
>> No, I'm just saying I still maintain I know for a fact Taylor Hackford has listened to Proof of Life. I think there is a listen the proof of life rewatchables.
>> There is a 50% chance that he was like you're going to get a kick out of this and played it for Helen Mirror. And then there is a 25% chance within that that she was like this is my favorite podcast.
>> I love these guys.
keep playing out this then there's a 10% chance that what that she's like let me deep dive this guy's podcast career music exists was really really thoughtprovoking >> and then then she makes the full connection after reading all Chuck's book and you're the one playing pool >> let me just add there's a there is a non >> nonzero chance that Tom Hardy's also doing this to get off the show which sometimes >> happens I I I think the most interesting segue for me from this is that Mobland has the kind of incredibly contemporary representative torturous episode of this.
>> Yeah, the first two uh torturous development cycle of many many shows uh of the moment particularly. We're going to get to Spider Noir in a minute. What is I feel like there's a um it's not a meme, but I feel like it is a saying that like like if you put the the dev the dev boys on something, you're going to end up with like a fish with feet or like Oh, yeah. Well, I I I'm getting the the the analogy wrong, but there's some idea that if you keep developing something, you will end up with something that is so far from the initial purpose that you're not even sure why it exists.
>> And I kind of feel that way about Mobland. It's fine. And all of the people in it are good, but I I I don't know. I'm chasing after an observation that I can't quite land about like that's what Tom Hardy's doing. Okay. I got when this first started when Mob, if I remember correctly, I can't believe how much long we're spending on this. I believe he said, you love it.
>> I want to be in London close to my family. This is a steady gig that I like.
>> That is so close to what I said about Harry Potter.
>> There was just one, what was the word he said that he wanted to be close to?
>> His family, >> right?
>> Um, >> he's figured it out, man.
>> So, another show that is on Paramount Plus, uh, along with Mob Land is The Agency. And the agency is coming back, I think June 21st.
>> Soon.
>> And I I'm pairing the AY's return with the return of a uh a bit malign show on Apple TV, but one that is close to your heart. Um a passion project viewers, which is Sugar, the Colin Ferrell Detective Show. Uh also returning for its second season. Honestly, surprisingly, it's been two years, it seems like.
>> Okay.
>> Has it?
>> I don't know. Sure. Yeah. When was sugar on your top 10? Insanely enough.
>> It was not on my top 10.
>> Oh, yes it was.
>> No, it was not.
>> Didn't you put sugar in your top 10?
>> No. I love to zag. I love to surprise and delight you, but no, sir.
>> I'm just going to look up Sugar season 1. Excuse me.
>> I promise no. I think that I said that the pilot was one of my favorite pilots of the last few years.
>> 2024 is when it debuted.
>> Wow. It was a different time.
>> 2026. Now, >> it was Joe Biden's favorite show.
>> Yeah.
We've changed. Um, maybe that's what you're mistaking me with.
>> Also, isn't it funny that this is the new normal where we are talking about these shows? It's like, oh, the agencyy's coming back. Sugar's coming back with its normal two-year gestation process.
>> Agency was last year, wasn't it?
>> Oh, damn. Really? That was also Joe Biden's favorite show.
>> Uh, >> Joe Biden loves the agency. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> I was Google Joe Biden the >> Joe Biden the agency. What are you going to get if you do that?
>> Uh, yeah. Anyway, >> 2024, right?
>> No way of knowing, but I'm glad you Googled it. Okay, which one do you want to talk about first? Let's talk.
>> I want to talk about like Well, first of all, you like you alluded to coming back after such a long interval, but also where you're at with these like the opportunity for since we're doing a lot more recurring television now in than in recent years, >> a show that maybe wrong was wrongfooted at certain points in its first season, tonally was still trying to find its voice, etc. Which one of these do you think has the biggest opportunity or the most likely opportunity most like highest likelihood of improving in its second season?
>> Well, I will say start by saying both have delivered excellent trailers for their second season. They sure have. No question about it. Um, and both in, if you were just going by the trailers, present a pretty exciting vision of 2020's television where very attractive movie stars fully embrace the genre trappings of that are that are really possible to explore within serialized television. So, that's cool. Um, I think the that said there is no question I I'll just say this now like the agency season 2 is going to be much better than >> we know what it's about because it's about it's based on the bureau so we know where season 2 goes. So, let's separate the conversation for a second to say that The Agency, one of our favorite shows of two years ago, both because it was stylish and incredibly well acted and was low-key a pretty good London Hang show. Um, despite all the stress that Marvin was going under, going through, um, >> it is, as you said, it is a fairly devout adaptation of one of the greatest shows >> probably ever on television, the French series Libero.
>> And as the season progressed, I think it started to develop its own kind of chilly swagger that suggested that it was going to deviate in ways, maybe not always plot, but in terms of the the delivery of the plot, in ways that felt kind of exciting. And second season of Libero is better than the first season with a lot of very cool um set pieces and moments of tension. And this trailer looks so sick. It made me so excited to watch it. And it actually made me appreciate even more how nice it was to have such a quality consistent entertainment for those 10 weeks two years ago.
>> One of the crazy things about the agency is that uh you know it's got a pretty star-studded cast. Jeffrey Wright, Richard Gear, Katherine W.
>> Richard Gear is Homer's dad >> from Euphoria.
>> Yes. Okay.
>> Carrie Lol and Richard Gear's son >> is Homer. Well, Dylan on Euphoria.
That's the character.
>> I just wanted to make it relevant to our young Tik Tok fans.
>> I They will have more to do this season based on so if you were watching season one and you were like Richard Gears in like six scenes and Katherine Wat's not on this show really.
>> Um and John Maggaro like what's he doing, you know? Um they'll have stuff to do next this season.
>> It looks awesome.
>> It does. Sugar.
>> Okay.
>> So, okay. I I can't even we can't have this conversation without spoiling an element of Sugar. Many people listening are probably like, "What are these guys talking about?" I haven't even heard of Sugar. Sugar came out two years ago.
Detective shows set in California. Like I LA like I mentioned stars Colin Ferrell.
>> I People sometimes ask, "Do I have to watch the first season to start the second season?" We have started to push the limits on what we are capable of with that.
>> I would like to take five seconds >> of just staring at you and >> maybe vamping. Sure.
>> And in one second, we are going to spoil.
>> Yeah, we are.
>> A big part of what makes sugar sugar.
>> And you know why we're going to do it?
Because [ __ ] Tim Apple doesn't want you to know.
>> He doesn't want us to know.
>> This trailer hides the ball. And by the ball, I mean one of the great television bag fumbles in recent years.
>> You know what I said when I watched this trailer? Are you having a [ __ ] laugh?
>> Yeah, because this is a trailer for the show Sugar Should Have Been. And let me tell you, it's not. But also, it's like, is this the first season of Sugar?
>> Also, you can't just trailer your way into the movie you wish it was. We've seen this fail in movies again and again.
>> Three, two, one. Colin Ferrell's character on Sugar >> is a [ __ ] alien.
>> Yes, >> he's a blue spaceman.
>> When does that come out?
>> Like episode five, >> right?
>> It's excruciating.
>> Did you know that like when you were watching it?
>> No. And then you he he's an alien.
>> Yeah. And then I stood up, went out for a pack of cigarettes, >> never came home, >> never smoked him.
>> Uh what did you I think I stopped watching Sugar. Does his alienhood >> Yeah.
>> play a major role in the second half of the season?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah, dude.
>> Wouldn't it in yours?
>> I don't know. This second season trailer makes it look like he loves boxing. Like I don't like >> We don't know. I keep waiting for DJT to tell us what aliens love. I keep hearing there's a press conference coming.
>> And maybe it's like they love noir movies.
>> People in the streets are like aliens right now.
>> Yeah, >> they're coming up to me with tears in their eyes.
>> No, that's just the Alien Earth FYC campaign which is all over town.
>> Um yeah, this is a huge twist in the show that they are not giving away in the trailer >> because it is a second season >> anchor around the neck of what could have been good. It is I we I wish I had done the prep to prepare for a there the same thing the [ __ ] fish with feet. This is what we have here.
Like it's okay to do a small thing.
Well, >> yes. Like aa garden made a whole career out of it and she should work at Apple TV frankly because you have Colin Frell one of the most stylish and compelling and charismatic actors of our time looking incredible in beautiful suits driving a sports car in a neon >> Colin Ferrell Rockford Files >> tinged. Yes. But like also really embracing the idea of like what LA light looks like and what a noir would look like in bright color, not in whatever [ __ ] rinky dink technicolor they did to Spider Noir to try to appeal to multiple audiences at once. We'll get there.
>> This is coming attractions for Andy's Spider Noir.
>> I'm just saying.
And that would have in the in the great words of the [ __ ] Seder dinner denu like that would have been enough.
>> Yeah. But instead, they were like, "No, no, there's also a a secret society because this guy likes Norah movies because he's an alien. We don't needed that."
>> Don't you think that Colin Frell signed up for this to play a detective or an alien?
>> I think Colin Frell signed up for this for a chance to wear suits that weren't [ __ ] fat suits in the back lot of Warner Brothers doing Penguin.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and yet he does have to wear an alien suit at some points in the show. In a perfect world, this show gets renewed because they're like, "Just do the parts that work. We don't care that he's an alien." That's fine. And maybe they did lean into it because they beefed up the cast like you you were pointing it out like >> Yeah. Shay Wigum, uh Sasha Cay, Tony Dalton, like a really great ensemble.
>> The plot already looks more interesting than the kind of >> it looks like a detective investigating like a missing boxer and and then Tony Dalton Lo from from Better Call Saul plays a sheriff's deputy, I think. And Shay Wigs seems to be a fixer.
>> It's just so so so weird to me. And it I don't know like at a time when Widow's Bay is on the docket for us to talk about like I I'm kind of I'm definitely giving I don't really want to rail on Apple's development process for why this happened the way it happened and even within the context of it's an alien show and a detective show the big reveal being just being slowwalked episode 5 was also such a weird fumble in season one. Anyway, it's just a bummer because I watched that trailer and I was like, "This is a show I want." And I think they're probably smart to do that and say like, "Look, all the stars are on Apple and they're all kind of doing genre stuff and you'll have a good time with this." Listener, I don't know if that's true.
>> Well, I can I can assure you that we'll we'll we'll at least give the second season a college try. I'll jump back in.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. You don't care anymore. You don't care.
>> You showed me the way.
>> You led me down the path of we don't have to watch TV to talk about TV. I was a trailblazer in that field.
>> Let's be positive, >> okay?
>> And let's talk about Widows Bay. Widows Bay released two episodes this week for a very clear purpose. Um, these two episodes are linked in ways that I found just like this series itself surprising and delightful. Uh, episode 6 is called Our History and it's directed by Ty West.
>> It was a big deal.
>> Great horror director. Directed Pearl and Maxine uh and X and he directed House of the Devil. Like he's a great horror director. also directed a really cool uh like Brian Jonestown kind of uh Jonestownesque um movie called The Sacrament that I really liked. Anyway, he directed this episode, Our History, which is set in 1702.
>> Mhm. It stars Betty Gilpin uh as Sarah Wescott who comes to the Widows Bay Island uh betrothed to uh Richard Warren who is the town you could say leader, savior, captor um and Richard Warren's played by Hamish Linkler kind of in a sly nod I think to his midnight mass character who was also a priest who worked on a in a rural island. Um, and and when we find these two uniting in 1702, a plague of violent insanity is kind of gripping the island, >> reminiscent of what we saw in the fog in the premiere episode.
>> That's right. Uh, and uh, Sarah finds herself in the center of these proceedings and attempts to save herself and Warren's children as he and some of the town's folk aim to stop her. Should we talk about these episodes separately or together? I would like to actually take one, if I may, brief step back just to contextualize our conversation.
>> Sugar in his journey >> when they revealed that he was an alien.
Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year to such a staggering degree.
>> Poster. Look who's trying to get an FYC campaign.
>> Let me try again. Which camera? Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year. M- Andy Greenwald, primary host of the Watch Podcast. Oh, that's for the poster primary.
>> You were traveling.
>> Okay. Of course, I was gone for a week, too. But anyway, my point is this show is so good in a way that staggers, humbles, and delights me. Like I my experience watching it is such that I am I am enjoying it. I'm laughing. I'm riveted. And I can't stop thinking at every moment of all of the brilliant creative decisions that went into almost every frame of it. Before we even talk about these episodes, I'm going to talk about like the directorial and cinematograph and camera choices that are that are involved in a show this specific, this tonally and aesthetically specific that shifts. It's a period piece this week. Previous week it was a crazy drug trip.
There have been, I believe, four directors so far. Hiro Marai, Sam Donovan, Ty West, Andrew Young, >> and Andrew D. Young who works with Tim Robinson a lot and is fant fantastic.
>> There is no there is no aberration from episode to episode. That's the kind of thing that you see in a longunning show where there's enough of a book on it and a style guide that when people come on, they feel comfortable knowing what it is they're stepping into. To do that from a cold stop is just remarkable.
>> Yeah. Um, the tonal balance of this show to be legitimately scary, to be legitimately funny, and to be legitimately emotionally gripping is something I've never seen done before.
And it's doing it in such a it it's subtle in the sense that this is not a giant expensive starry adaptation of something. It is not based on pre-existing material. It is not it was not presented to us as the next big show. The way that it was put together with just this like quiet, confident uh competence and you know occasional brilliance is wild to me. It's wild to me.
>> Co-sign everything you just said. The >> and every and by the way I know this isn't really a valuable comment but everyone's talking about that. Yes. Like everyone when I have conversations with people someone will be like oh my god the editing the editing is so exceptional. Someone will say, "Oh, notice Allison Jones, the legendary casting director, you know, Freaks and Geeks, uh, Barbie, The Office Veep, she worked on this, and you can tell like down to the guest stars week to week.
I'm blown away."
>> Well, and to your point, uh, several shows that I have been from not engaged to highly engaged with over the last couple weeks have come out on Netflix and Amazon. Uh, Spyron Noir, for instance, dropped its whole season.
legends. We talked about like the burrows on Netflix I talked about with Joe last week.
>> Um feels like in the sort of larger conversation their their moments already come and gone in some ways because you just your your engagement with a binge is individual and personal. Nobody's on the same page. You can feel Widow's Bay uptick in group chats and in conversations at I'm sure school pickup or whatever where it's like what are you watching or like dinner parties or conversations at restaurants and it's like people are picking up on Widow's Bay. They are catching up on Widows Bay.
They are excited about Widows Bay. I feel like there was like a almost like an awareness that this was a special two-part event this week.
>> Completely agree with you. There's also something like, you know, how I I always I hear Sam mail in my head where it's like you cannot get mad at a piece of art for what it didn't do.
>> He was talking to me.
>> But like you can't make be mad about the choices that it makes. It's like you have to evaluate the choice it did make, not what it could have done.
I want to just say that in less sure hands or in a um a less certain >> showrunner's hands like other than Katie Dipple like this would have been this our history episode would have been drunk history. It would have been Betty Gilpin doing kind of Krinski gym gym office faces while all this stuff is happening because she basically is doing a note perfect 18th century like Puritan woman but also doing uh Amy Polar and Parks and Wreck like she has comic timing and she is giving it a modern sensibility. I think that is like uh as soon as I got here I was like what the [ __ ] is going on? You know what I mean? Like she has like that kind of like I know you're watching me and this is a break from this show's reality >> but I'm going to be consistent with the way Matthew Reese reacts to things on the island as well even though it's 300 years apart.
>> How did they do that? How did they how did they do a 300year flashback episode with the confidence of a show that has been running for multiple seasons?
>> Um it there's these subtle choices that I'm dazzled by. Like we we watched the first episode and we raved about it and then we watched the second the second one and I think we took time to praise the fact that the show seemingly pitched itself in the first episode as here comes the big trouble. like this is going to be an event series for lack of a better word. But then almost immediately it walked it back. The tourist did come and there was suddenly more space for episodic situational comedy or hijinks of this type of horror film, this type of horror story. And I was ready to settle into a perceived take of that's pretty smart for a show that might run multiple seasons made by someone who worked on Parks and Wreck, for example. Yeah.
>> With multiple episodes to go is a level of confidence in the larger story project that is remarkable. And it caused me to go back though and notice all the little smart decisions like the fact that episode uh three sea hag and episode four um beach reads which is a contender for episode of the year are happening concurrently.
>> So playing with time in a way to pre-address the idea >> reads is the Patricia episode.
>> Yes. Yeah. to to to almost uh pre- uh counter the the criticism that it can't that that befowls a lot of television, which is it can't be the most important thing that's ever happened if we have time for a bottle episode or a side quest.
>> All of these things are not um amateur decisions, you know, they are not rash decisions. They are thoughtful, considered decisions that are paying off the story. And so all of that is preamble to say these two episodes were ballsy as hell. the uh >> and I'm glad they dropped them together, which is another smart decision.
>> When they were digging him up at the end of uh is it I think at the end of our history they start digging him up.
>> Yep.
>> I was like that was cool. And I'm sure they're digging him up to get the necklace, right? Or something, you know?
>> Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's what they did.
>> And this is comic screenwriting that is being applied to a sort of chamber horror drama.
where it's like what if he was still alive in that box and then what if Hamish Linklater was just on this show for an episode and what if instead of being unfrozen caveman lawyer who's freaking out about like there being electricity and stuff. He's actually like I've decided I I I need to die because I've been tortured for hundreds of years and then he's like actually I kind of want to live.
>> Can I throw one more what if at you?
What if our R our meaning the audience's introduction to his uh resurrection or he never died that the fact that he's still alive is played entirely through the perspective of Tom waking up from one of the most hellacious 24-hour mushroom trips in recorded history >> so that he shows up and and Richard is already upstairs. Yes, >> there is no jump scare in the coffin >> and Patricia is rattled and Wick has already cut his hand trying to open like there has already been all this stuff happening while Tom is like I've been asleep for a day.
>> That is another sign of filmmaker confidence, storyteller confidence that we don't need to hit every potential.
>> It's funnier to have them be like don't open that. We we tried that already.
>> We already did it. We're behind our main character is behind the story.
>> Yeah. So, in Seasickness, uh, which is directed by Sam Donovan, as Andy mentioned, who, you know, worked on Skins and Severance and The Crown, and written by Dave Harris, um, I've seen this many people say this is >> got a lot of Jaws Juice on it, and it Jaws Juice.
>> Yeah. Well, just like the the three of them on the boat singing and kind of looking for something out there. Uh, I thought this was a really cool episode and I really liked how even though it's basically all shot within the cockpit of Wick's boat.
>> Mhm.
>> The time it takes to be like, here's the practical amount of space and time that needs to be covered. He has to get to this buoy, but Wick can't go past the buoy.
>> Tom can. Richard needs to to be evaporated into bones. But, you know, like you never leave anything and it isn't an exposition dump, but you do get a sense of like when's Wick going to get off the boat and how is or how is Tom going to be able to sail the dinghy and what's what are the rules?
>> Yeah. What are the rules? And it's still only 40 minutes or whatever it is. and it still flies by and has time for a bplot of Evan discovering that his mother >> at least didn't die during childbirth if not is I would imagine I'm starting to wonder if she's still alive somewhere right >> well I think are we now on to supposition corner I mean I I I think I don't know if this is like >> supposition Corner could be another recurring segment for us >> I don't know if it's going to go well for us I don't know >> not as good as your silence is deafening >> that's a much that was awesome I'm a little spooked because This is the week because the Knicks swept their way to the finals that all of the it's a basketball team that all of the video footage of NBA experts being like the Knicks overpaid for Jaylen Brunson and this is not the kind of signing that will get good.
>> Becky Hammond being like you'll never win with a small guard.
>> I'm just saying I don't want to I want to be very careful now that I know that these takes live forever. I didn't know that until this week. I thought I didn't know that all of these podcasts remained on Spotify. If we talked about anything of consequence, I think that might matter. But since we're mostly talking about Did you ever watch Iron Man?
>> That dude was an alien. Okay, that's fair. Um, no. So, well, okay, I could say this as a supposition corner or I could say it about like the the watching a show that is made by people who know what they're doing. It's just such a pleasure. But in the second episode, when Tom locks himself into the hotel overnight, >> we do see weird paintings and scary paintings. And we see that also in the first episode when he's touring Basher Solid through the um >> Yeah.
>> the museum or whatever. And I think when we saw that we were like, well, Katie Dipold really learned from Parks and Wreck about how funny historical [ __ ] can be.
>> Yes.
>> Uh one of the paintings in the hotel is of what appears to be a toddler loose at sea. And I I I feel like I'm not the only person. I've not read any coverage of the show yet, but like that is clearly the Richard's daughter who received the Buch.
>> Yes.
>> Coming off of the boat, making it back to the mainland, and then beginning a bloodline that ends with um Tom's son.
>> Look at the big brain on Brad.
>> This is probably the most covered idea.
>> That's my job is to go digging in the crates for that kind of stuff >> that just appeared in this crate. You know, it's my brain. There's many ways to watch this show. And you can watch it with a scalpel >> or you can watch it and you can sit there and and and just marvel at the the comic tone and >> Yeah.
>> and the the spooks and the creeks in the night, you know? It's great.
>> I I actually I think I mean this as praise. I I don't care >> that that this kid is related to the founder of the island. Like my enjoyment of the show is not dependent on >> I've seen some people be like they should have thrown the bones overboard cuz I think they bring Richard's boat.
>> Oh, there's there's ways they should have behaved. That's a cool way to watch television.
>> No, I mean I like that will probably come back to literally haunt them that they did not get rid of Richard's >> bones >> and his Vienna sausages.
>> Yes.
>> Uh >> if you were Richard >> Uhhuh.
>> and you're you're 330ome years old.
>> Yeah.
Isn't a gift shop blowing your mind?
Aren't you just like, "Holy shit."
>> I'm on a t-shirt.
>> Yeah, there's lights.
>> I I don't know. I was basically, you know, living alone.
>> The Knicks have gotten how far with a small guard, >> dude. I'm just like I was living alone in London, one of the greatest cities in the world, for 7 weeks, and I almost lost my mind.
>> Yeah, >> he was in a box for 300 years, and he came out pretty chill.
>> I know. Take that, Nate.
I'm just saying >> maybe keep it together a little bit more.
>> Chill out. Yeah. So, I uh I was okay with that. He's a little bit He's a little bit touched. You know, he's a little bit different kind of guy. Buried alive. Having a moment.
>> Yeah.
>> Top five burials alive. Alive burials.
>> Don't list the other three.
>> The bride.
>> Oh, you want to do the other three? cuz this could burn us if there's another one we're >> bride the Ryan Reynolds movie uh buried when he >> which was a remake of a like a Danish movie, right?
>> Of course you know that. Yeah. Uh >> this is what it means to be this is the international sign for being buried.
>> How would you know that?
>> Because the movie isn't Danish and I didn't understand any of it except when the guy was like this.
>> Another really good buried alive person.
>> Uh Nikki Santoro in Casino.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Spoiler, sorry.
>> Nikki's barely alive when he goes in.
>> I don't think that's a distinction that's worth noting.
>> Yeah. Doesn't Don't they hit him with a bat like 150 times?
>> Yeah, but not but he's alive. I'm not saying he's alive for long.
But >> burial alive. Burial's alive. Hit us up the watch atspotify.com. Let us know your favorite. Uh >> that'd be good.
>> Evan, now you you've talked a little bit about the the links you're seeing, >> the theories you're you're theorizing about. Um, he is an example of another thing that this show does really well, which is it can have story lines that last 25 minutes and are deeply satisfying. It can have story lines that last multiple episodes, like say the mushroom trip, which obviously has >> after effects. If you were Tom and you would just trip your balls off for multiple days, >> you'd probably be like, "Am I still high when you meet a 300-year-old man?" Uh >> yeah, I >> but it turns out he shares something in common with him because of the mushrooms spoke to both of them. The Evan plot is obviously like I guess would you call this a seasonl long runner? Is this guy's rebellion? Yeah.
>> And search for self.
>> Yeah. And by the way, Kingston room South plays the kid is is the presumed innocent cast having a moment. Yes.
>> Him and Chase Infinity >> both having moment. He's great. Um, yeah, I think that it it's again it's just the smart construction where it is often rebellious teenage characters are created purely to exist as stress and plot creators for the main character, but this kid is given the dignity of his own plotline. Like there's a tiny moment in the episode where he is, you know, called out or caught by Basher, the sheriff, and he says to him, "Would it be cool if when I turned around to go back to my friends, I yelled, "Fuck you, pig." Yes. And Basher says, "Absolutely not." But then he but then the camera cuts back to him to smile about it, and it's like that's a human moment in a show that would otherwise, you know, might not need to have room for that. I do want to digress again, which I know is off-brand for this podcast, especially today, but as our resident pharmaceuticals expert, you were asking Tom's experience in the previous uh two episodes ago, was that similar or dissimilar to when we met for the second time ever on the streets of South?
>> I don't think my experience was nearly as intense as those guys. I think that they were dealing with some serious [ __ ] >> Mine was like four hours long.
>> Yeah.
>> That night. Yeah.
>> And largely enjoyable other than seeing the Death Star in the sky.
>> Oh, >> and maybe feeling like I was in Apocalypse Now.
>> Somehow the Death Star >> and then my buddy tried to climb into um like a 2x two shelf in his closet.
>> How'd that go?
>> Didn't work. I mean, but he was like, I'm going in there.
>> But what's weird is, and people want the full story of this can listen to the uh train spotting episode of Rewatchables.
I think we get into this in great great granular detail, but >> we should create a lore playlist for >> but my my my memory of what was weird about my experience was that me and my girlfriend at the time were walking downtown towards Tower Records to buy the Tribe called Quest record that came out that night.
>> But we were do >> I do the work #ally before that was a thing.
>> Um we were walking and we were stopped by >> is that the love movement or >> beat rhymes in life? We were stopped by police officers from walking down a street saying, "No big deal. Can you go around? There is a suspect on the loose on this street >> and then a block later >> I see your ass and you're just like, "Hey, what's up?"
>> Now, did you interact at all with the police activity that night?
>> Uh, if I did, >> because I think that would have freaked you out.
>> I I don't think I did. I did. I was aware of that activity, but you know, >> you were focused on the big picture in the sky. I also think Philly PD they try to keep the crowds moving. You know what I mean? Like it's >> they always say it.
>> Yeah. Man, what a show. I'm so excited for these last few episodes. So 8, 9, and 10 still to come uh over the next three weeks.
>> As a segue, because we're going to talk about Spider Noir in a second. And and Spider Noir does not deserve all these strays, but it's just >> it's what we got this week. is I want to uplift Widow's Bay even further just to say that this show exists because Katie Dippled was passionate about a story and a vibe and a tone and a type of show that she wanted to make and she found incredible partners who were um open-minded and excited to join in and bring their talents and Hero Marai and everyone else that she assembled to make the show. It only comes from that relatively pure creative act. Yeah, >> her. Which is rare in movies and in TV these days where a lot of what we see is an example of people doing their absolute best work to clear a relatively arbitrary bar that has been set for them by rights holders or development executives or network executives or whatever. That's part of the job. Yeah.
Um and it can be done well.
>> These are all free to write novels.
Exactly.
>> For free to be subsumed by generative AI.
I think this is actually segus nicely into Spider Noir as you alluded to. So, Spider Noir is a new show executive produced by Lorden Miller on Amazon Prime. Whole season's already up. It is a uh extension, I guess, or a riff on >> a character that Nicholas Cage played in Across the Spiderverse, I believe.
>> Yeah, in the Spider-Verse movies. He voices a version of this character. I I do think it's a sad sign of how cooked we are that all of the press for the show makes it clear that this is not the same character because it could be.
>> This is another iteration or expression of the idea.
>> It's it's really weird that like they that they are making that like it's almost like they want to keep the sanctity of these animated blockbusters and do like a spin-off of it but not explicitly because like what if it doesn't work? We don't want to damage the brand. I don't I don't know. Well, also that it's more it's but it's even more than that. It's that there is an established cannon to these fanciful and honestly brilliant Spider-verse movies that contain the idea that there are thousands of spider people and sometimes spider horses and cars and that each one has a very distinct identity. And so to protect the gentle uh souls of these devoted fans, they have to be make it clear that this spider noir is not the same spider noir. There's just more than one.
>> Okay, gotcha. Are you feeling better about that?
>> Yeah. This is a show set after World War I.
>> One, >> uh, and it stars Nicholas Cage as Ben Riley, who is this uh, sort of retired spider man, >> now private detective.
>> Mhm. investigating an honestly like beyond synopsis set of missing person's cases and and trying to track people down and trying to get blackmail and interacts with um several I would assume canonical Spider-Man >> iterations of them >> iterations of Spider-Man villains. It is an incredible cast of Cage, Lamour Morris, uh Brendan Gleason, Lucas Hos, >> Lee Lee Lee, >> Le John Lee, um Cameron Britain, like >> your guy Jack Houston. Let's go to him in a minute.
>> You ever watch Boardwalk?
>> Yeah. The whole thing?
>> Yeah. Do you remember Grantland?
>> We used to do the damn thing back then.
We put seven shows up. Yep.
>> And we talked about them.
>> Who put the shows up? The podcast. the TV networks, they were like, "Here's seven TV shows this year. Enjoy."
>> Oh, yes.
>> And we were like, "Yes."
>> I wasn't. I was like, "Actually, this is problematic." And people hated me for it.
>> Boardwalk Empire.
>> Was that the first time you snowflaked out?
>> I didn't. First of all, I've been snowflaking out since I first watched the triathlon in 1986.
>> What Who will think about the sea life that these people are disturbing?
>> Oh, their legs are damp. Um, who wants to sit in a wet bike seat? Um, >> that is actually like a pet peeve of mine.
>> See, >> uh, wet wet swim shorts on a bike seat, chafing.
>> Thank you for speaking your truth.
Usually you hang me up.
>> The way I say it sounds kind of cool and like normal.
>> You know, it also I know it also suggests that your childhood was like [ __ ] um Goonies all the time.
>> Yeah.
>> And I was just alone in my backyard going like this except didn't have a backyard. Anyway, um, no, Boardwalk Empire. I was like, it was kind of like uh uh prestige karaoke. Even then, it had some moments.
>> The reason why Widow's Bay is able to pull off the two episodes that they did this week is because of choices and confidence in those choices and commitment to those choices.
>> I think that nothing sums up how I feel about Spider Noir, the two episodes that I watched, and and sort of some light scrubbing through some of their episodes. Nothing sums up how I feel about it more than the fact that when you click play on the Amazon Prime Video app or or site, you are offered a choice between true hue color >> or authentic black and white. Now, there's a probably a reaction some people have where they're like, "Cool, I love choice.
I want I want them to choose. I don't actually like this."
>> Present the show you want me to see. And I think it's I think it's indicative of how I ultimately feel about this show that neither looks very good.
>> The black and white is not high contrast enough for my taste. It doesn't >> have the atmosphere of old noir movies that I think it's looking for. It kind of has a monochrome to it. Yes. Yes.
>> And the true hue looks like running Sin City through a color like colorization program to like pop colors. And >> I kind of found it really distracting.
Um and I I have to say I I don't know if I've really ever talked about this.
>> Oh, >> I'm not a huge Nicholas Cage guy.
>> Wow.
>> I like him. Yeah.
>> I like him at his peaks. I like him at his his Lynch weirdness. I love Raising Arizona. I love Wild at Heart. I love uh >> Moonruck.
>> I love The Rock and Conair.
>> But I am not like everything this guy does is so fascinating and and awesome.
>> And do you feel like he's like kind of playing with one hand behind his back in this game like or something like or or I don't know. Why am I like I'm like way more into Brendan Gleon and Lucas Hos in this show than I am Nicholas Cage?
>> I I feel like I'm going to meet you halfway on this. I think that Nicholas Cage being the star of the show and making the choices that he makes is probably the most interesting thing about it. Um that said, I agree that it ultimately is not that interesting. I think it's fun seeing an actor who I think is, this is not a controversial opinion, hasn't hasn't had laser focus for swaths of the last two decades in terms of his career choices and >> got got some notes to pay off.
>> It's true. Um, so to see him kind of like relatively locked into something um that he could do quite easily is amusing. And there are moments like there's a moment in the second episode when he when Ben Riley pretends to be a plumber and so it's Nicholas Cage pretending to be someone pretending to be someone and you feel the liveless of it that pops even in the I agree the kind of cloudy black and white sidebar like if you want to see an argument for black and white in the 2020s watch Ripley >> which is every frame is so beautifully considered and composed that there's no other way that you could imagine seeing it and I would say I don't think this is >> goat season >> but it's also it's not anecdotal to say this. This was like Garrett Bash, who's the producer of that and producer of many, many other FX shows, um, works with Tao YT a lot. Um, basically said that they just shot it one way and then they told Showtime who they were making it for, that's what we did because Showtime was like, "Can you give us options?"
>> Yeah. And I think giving options is a hallmark of a successful contemporary creative career, but it is not necessarily the quickest or straightest path to great creative solution. So in the case of the show, um, Orura Newil is the showrunner and I think that he has done a really really solid job >> doing something that I'm not sure is possible to do in a way that would satisfy. And what I mean is he is clearly a talented writer and clearly a talented storyteller and clearly confident in the ways that are necessary to get something like this over the finish line and get it made. Um, but some of the things that are most on display here is a very contemporary writerly skill, which is tightroppe walking, which is finding or trying to find a healthy balance between the two great flavors that don't always necessarily taste great together. You can see the indecision in the the options of how to screen it. But for me, the most damning indecision of the show is is this a nor show or is this a superhero show? And I know which side I find more interesting. And I found it as I watched a couple episodes of it, the constant safe return to the home base of but actually that guy's the Sandman.
Actually, it's just going to be a superhero.
>> If he gets pushed off the roof, he can always sling some webs to >> I found that I don't even know what the word is. It's not disappointing. I just found it non non-elevating. I think that because of the dominance of superhero and comic book stories over the last 20 years, >> you and I have have often said like use it as a Trojan horse to make the thing you really wanted to make. And I I I don't back off of that.
>> But if a guy gets shoved off a building, it's supposed to be a dramatic moment where you're like, is this it for this character? and or you know even if he's just at the edge of the building cuz that's a place I'm sure there's dozens of more moments where guy's got a gun on our hero and he's standing at the edge of a roof and it's just like what's going to happen? I think that if you can throw webs from your wrists to save your own life, it kind of just robs the dramatic moment. And that's something that comes up a couple of times in these two episodes that I've watched. I also I mean as noir storytelling goes I have found it a little bit too in between yes one long story and episodic stories of like and now I have another case this week you know um it's a cool idea >> and I applaud them being able to do it.
There's also a little bit of Agents of Shield stuff happening here where I'm like >> you guys is it Spider-Man or or what?
like you know like >> choose >> just just if if this is like let these guys cook like >> like let them have the toolbox >> or don't.
>> To me what would be interesting I I hear your point about like it just it's kind of a cheat code to reduce stakes if everybody can survive anything. The thing that that I was disappointed to see but not surprised to see was that the that everyone has superpowers.
>> Yeah. What's interesting to me about the concept would be about a guy who's a private eye who is basically cursed with abilities that other people don't have and then what do you do with it?
>> Like the idea that he could I mean because it is a classic trope of detective fiction and noir that the detective takes more damage than anyone could possibly survive >> and keeps coming. He would have maybe a more legitimate reason for being able to get back up again despite the bruises.
But the first person he encounters in his detective mission can ignite himself. Yes.
>> On fire. Which is immediately makes me just that to me that flattened the stakes. If if there's going to be two shows where there are the normals and Leam Morris is doing a great job playing Robbie Robertson, another canonical journalist character from the Spider-Verse. He fits into this world like a glove and is having a lot of fun.
and the scenes with him and Nicholas Cage pop for me.
>> Y, >> but he's existing down here with the normals and Ben Riley's up here with the the superpowered freak shows and that is less that I find that less interesting.
>> Did you like the stuff of Gleon and Hos the Silver Main stuff?
>> I like those actors.
>> Yeah, >> I I like those actors. I I I think my my biggest disappointment is um as television shows budgets have gone up and visual spectacle has gone up, the opportunity to really to to make the writing, for lack of a better word, more muscular and kind of the star has gone down and certainly there are plenty of things that are overwritten, but um the idea of the writing being the star of a show is not really in vogue. Everybody wants to have room to have the the banter that goes bang bang bang bang bang and then the scene starts.
>> Yeah, >> that bang bang is noir. That's noir dialogue. And so I wish there had been more opportunities to play that out because instead it kind of fell flat to me. You have the trappings of what it's supposed to be with Lee Jun Lee as a you know as an anal fem fatal and you have Ben Riley as the put upon um >> gum shoe >> gum shoe wanders into her place of business where he doesn't belong and he's he's declassing the joint and then you have dialogue where he's like well a singer has to know all the numbers maybe a detective has to know all the answers that's not that snappy >> that is a similacrim of snappiness you know so I but again there are a lot of mouths to feed when you have a show I want to be on this britch and I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because I did not get this job. I did not deserve to get this job and or New Zealand did a much better job than I ever would have. Um, but it was interesting to be inside of the process of how stuff like this gets made. And truly the way stuff like this gets made is off of the success of the Spiderverse movies. Anybody who works I most people who work in 2026 probably know the experience of wow there's a lot of people on this Zoom now. How did this happen? You know what I mean? And it's like it's not that's not a bad thing.
Nobody involved probably has ill intentions and >> you know the way that those things kind of bloat is natural. But there you could probably do like a a hard a cleareyed assessment of like what's this person what's the like what is the reason why this person is now giving me notes about this stuff or whatever and it's you're right part of the job of the 21st century screenwriter showrunner is to please all the different stakeholders >> and because the genesis of this is Spiderverse was a big hit and so Sony and Lorden Miller um sold a package of Spiderverse shows creatives unattached to Amazon.
>> Yep.
>> And the first one which was Silk went through two or three showrunners over a period of years and eventually frittered out and never got made. The process that I was a part of uh for this one frittered out years ago and was stopped um and then restarted a year later and and then this was the development process of it. And but even in my limited experience like Lauren Miller are I mean I think they're geniuses with what they do. No one does what they do and it's incredible to watch the final product of um they are also creators.
>> So to walk into a process that's like we we have these toys. What do you want to do with them? Because Amazon's going to make the show if we hit the target that we haven't been able to fully articulate yet. And then you also have the stakeholders who wanted a superhero show and the sup the stakeholders who wanted to be involved but maybe not as involved. And then there's the Marvel presence and then there's Amy Pascal and like >> that's really really hard. So I bring that up not to spill personal stuff, just to say like to get this show on the air looking really good is [ __ ] amazing.
>> It's just ultimately not something I think I I think we want to spend eight hours watching. And it's incredible that it's there. all these good intentions, good performance, and good thinking that went into it.
>> What do you think is the logic behind making it a binge?
>> Um, I have no idea. I I I mean the only thing that I would say is maybe like if you watch The Boys or if you remember how The Boys was released.
>> Yes. 311.
>> The first season was a binge.
>> Oh yeah. So, I think that Amazon has some internal metrics that are like for this type of genre show or this fan base, it's better to give it to them.
>> Well, it seems like yeah, if I remember correctly, I think I think off-c campus, which is a big hit for them, went up as a binge. I imagine any successive seasons of off-c campus, I could see that being pulled back. I think the summer turned pretty happened. I mean, it's it's been interesting to watch that network.
I wouldn't say stumble into because I'm sure it was very very conscientious like kind of owning YA and owning like young female >> romance stories.
>> They have like a whole vertical there where it's like Obsession is in session and it's like not only is it a bunch of originals, but they've curated all these like movies that they think fit into this aesthetic. I wonder whether or not they'll continue to do stuff like that.
And Peter Freedellander, uh, you know, who we remember from Netflix is in charge over there now. But like I it'll be interesting to see if that streamer in particular becomes less about release dates and more about like centers of interest verticals basically.
>> I think that's a that's a I don't know if it's smart. I think it is a um clever and defensible programming strategy. But I would say that the executive mandates and executives themselves have moved around so much that a lot of these streamers and services that even what we >> we have done podcasts where where we were like ah Paramount Plus's central argument for existence is coming into focus.
>> Yes, >> it's working for them. They found a couple things that work and they're building from them. mostly Taylor Sheridan and and just the shows that fit into that um aesthetic.
Taylor Sheridan's gone under the new uh uh leadership.
>> Couple I mean Dutton's doing very well.
>> No, I think he's going to finish out a couple of shows, but yes, >> for sure. Dutton Ranch is a huge hit.
I'm just saying that like he is now moving to Peacock and so what will Peacock do? Similarly, um you know, Amazon seemed like it was finding some some some fertile ground with the YA stuff and then also the MA stuff, >> the terminalist and reacher and and Jack Ryan and like dad stuff. Yeah.
>> And we don't fully know what their direction is going to be under Peter Freelander, but I thought it was but I noted with interest, we talked about this briefly with with Kaya, not the show itself, but the release strategy that Terminalist, I think, has been on the shelf and is finally getting a release date for its second season um in October. Mhm.
>> So if they wanted to keep pumping that well until it was dry, they haven't really done it. And that might signal that that's not what they're doing. So I I don't know the the the >> they just want to get terminalist closer to midterms.
>> Oh yeah. Or are they trying to read the electorate?
>> Do you think that the plight of the white Africana farmer is like going to be a real driving issue in Maine? I I just wonder this is probably a topic for a a different show, but I wonder if in I I know that when we've talked to Casey Boy when he Casey came on the show, he talked about how he was like, I'm on 20 >> spring of 28. Yeah. I'm I'm planning out HBO has that thing where there's this baton pass from one show to the other over the course of year. there's usually like a couple of weeks of like >> docks or event programming or whatever, but you know, you usually have like a Sunday night >> like show to hang your your laundry on.
And I just wonder whether or not as people increasingly find themselves detached from the cable bundle >> and also watching things almost entirely on their own schedule and entirely up to their own tastes in the same way that like I know Drake put three albums out last week but in some ways I don't feel like that happened you know because in my algorithm it's just not a huge deal.
Do you basically get away from the release schedule as a paradigm for television and make it more about like what we want is to have stuff there so that when people have found a vibe that they like they can continue to watch things. Netflix has explored this for sure >> but Amazon and their really strong links to uh the publishing industry I think is exploiting their kind of ability to be like this book is hot make it into a show. This book is hot make it into a show. So, it'll be it'll be interesting to be talking about this deep into the Ter Rico administration. You know, >> I I I can't wait. I think that one of the less talked about in terms of the front-facing like actually watching TV show storylines is are these streamers better serve programming for untapped viewers who will sign up for the service >> or >> making deep obsessives of the people who already have it.
>> Yeah. And I think that was the Star Trek strategy that Paramount was doing for a while of like our floor is the however many people watch everything that says Star Trek on it and we know that they'll pay for our service cuz that's what we have.
>> Um there was some really interesting reporting in the last month and also a good episode of the town podcast about this which is like Peacock saying >> we're getting closer to profitability and then looking under the hood and what does that mean? Yes. And the most interesting thing about that to me wasn't the the the rise in subscribers and what the NBA has done for them. It's the fact that like apparent I'm paraphrasing here, but that the churn rate was still very very high of people signing up and then like they sign up for the NBA cancel after NBA >> and I so that so maybe the tier isn't the subscriber number, it's the stability number of like how many people you maintain from the people you get at hot >> one of the reasons why I've always been confused when there seems to be overlapping Taylor Sheridan shows because I'm like couldn't you just spread these out so that there's 12 months of Taylor Sheridan shows and you don't have anybody ever trying to cancel?
>> That sounds like a like a wife.
>> That's a knee problem.
>> Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef and and just do some After Dark, huh?
>> Yeah. Do you want to So we should we just wrap up Euphoria?
>> Oh, yeah. Next week.
>> You could keep Euphoria. Well, I I like After Dark Euphoria. It mirrors Nate's last moments.
>> Well, should we I mean, we could touch on it. I feel like we should hit it harder next week.
>> Yeah, but let's just I I wanted to just say I I am up to date on Euphoria, as are you.
>> I am up to date on Euphoria. I like to text you to let you know I am. the penultimate episode of the season and likely the series, I would imagine. Um, and for the first time, >> perhaps in this show's history, I was bored. I I I've been using that as a bit of like a little bit of a metric, but I just found >> despite the intensity of the episode, I felt like I had seen these scenes before, like there had been we were repeating a lot of beats and I thought cinematically there was some brilliant stuff in it. I would watch Coleman Domingo and Zenaia.
>> Yeah.
>> As I have in the special that they did where the two of them talk about addiction and and spirituality and salvation and redemption extensively. Uh I think that their relationship, Ali, Ali and and Mar's relationship is fascinating and I thought Ali's, you know, sort of origin story and him going through the pandemic, losing people that he's the um sponsor of was heartbreaking.
Not only heartbreaking, one of the things I mean this as a compliment compliment about this season of television is that there have been a number of fully formed pretty compelling television shows just tossed out on the table like stuff you find in your pocket.
>> And the shooting like Natasha Leon makes a cameo as as a prostitute living with Ali for a while. Like >> the cutting and like the banter and the energy and the electricity coursing through that >> Yeah. is absent when Maddie is on like page like like the 70th iteration of I'm a pimp, but I'm also a manager's assistant, but now I'm a pimp again. And I I think ultimately like Levenson probably had to like unite the threads in some ways.
>> I didn't know he was going to try, honestly.
>> Lexi narks out everybody and then Maddie narkcs out everybody thing. I >> I just really hit my head against that.
I was like, I I don't think these people would be that naive. I don't think Maddie would be so naive as to like idally tell Alamo that Rue is now working for the DEA.
>> Yeah.
>> That's [ __ ] crazy. Um, >> but didn't you feel it coming when she just brought it up hers when Rue blurted it out?
>> Yes. And I felt it coming when that scene went on for a long time being like, obviously this is going to get away from Lexi as she just passes this along. And and not to carry water for it, I was starting to feel like in this episode there is a version of or there's a defense of the show baked into the idea that the H the Hollywood writer from the comfort of her very nice apartment with beautiful old film posters that she clearly bought it on posterat. Great place to browse.
>> No ads, but I like it. Um that all of this madness is springing from her imagination in a way. Well, that was a season two >> element was like, you know, Lexi writing a play about season two basically. Okay.
>> Uh, >> but yeah, I I think I had the last time we talked about Euphoria, I had sounded the alarm that or maybe I when I was kind of monologuing about it at which point I >> on the podcast or in your life >> on the podcast where I mistakenly said that Jesus Christ saw the burning bush and not Moses, which goes to show you what Quaker education does for your your biblical studies.
>> Was that the light within? Yeah. Was it the burning bush?
>> I uh I just thought that the crime stuff was starting to reach its it was getting a little high up in the atmosphere and losing oxygen and and I think this has been proven true like >> bringing together Alamo, Nas, Nate, Maddie, >> Cassie, >> and by extension Ru and the Lorie stuff.
I just think it's just like he has to do that to end the show. But it it it just didn't feel as graceful as some of the other moments of this series has for me.
>> I think the biggest compliment you could give the show is that it is a wildly expensive, wildly audacious improvisatory exercise by someone who had not a blank check but had a lot of open road and a lot of big stars and a very small window in which to get them all together and to see what happens.
Yeah, >> it's diminishing returns in terms of just um compelling entertainment, I think, is is fair to say. I I do want to just circle back to the idea that Coleman Domingo is so alive in everything that he does. And the show, I don't know if it's a full show, but about a uh recovering addict uh who has become a sponsor trying to keep people alive during COVID. I would watch that show.
>> Sure. and the the the short story version of it we got was incredibly compelling and also has something this is not really a fair audience thing to do I think consistently but it's but sometimes I feel like you can feel a creator lean in you know to things that that are touching the third >> I mean the Alamo origin story too I'm sure you I know that you were like probably rolling your eyes a little bit at that but I thought that had energy and I I thought it had POV. It had like >> It had juice.
>> Yeah. It had juice. And so >> and and that is a marketked uh distinction I would say from the scenes that increasingly to me feel like outtakes from like a Bugsy Malone movie where kids are playing dress up. Well, and then you get to the Nate part which is just like I I I I suppose on one hand I can make a defense for it where it's like you know what, like there is no such thing as character armor on the show and uh or plot armor or whatever the term is, but like just because it's Jacob Allerty doesn't mean that he's going to escape from a burial. Uh, you know, that was a one of those character arcs that makes you frankly wonder like what the relationship between the creator and the performer is >> aggressive.
>> Um, because he doesn't really have a lot to do other than get mutilated this season and then he dies, you know, like >> and and I need your context for this because we touched on this. Not watching the first two seasons, I am completely unaware of >> that character is a bad [ __ ] guy. And like you could say, >> so was this justice?
>> But that's the thing is that as Ru and Ali talk about redemption and you know, how do you feel about like the fentanyl you've brought over has killed people and what what is what is salvation and redemption in the eyes of that? Like I, you know, obviously Nate, I think that might be what they're trying to say is that like this is a guy who didn't deserve to get out of the hole. I don't No, I mean like that is also like I I would be very curious to know what Sam Levenson said about that.
You know, maybe at the end of the season he'll talk a little bit more openly about some of the stuff. Um, you know, you can also speak to Alli's popularity as an actor and his his busy schedule and wonder how much of this was like we have x amount of time with Nate.
>> It doesn't work. He's not going to be able to >> show up at Lorie's house with two guns to save Cassie or something like that.
Here's what we're going to do with it.
But that felt like a very small plot, like a a subplot that just got extended for seven hours. And it's it was a unsatisfying conclusion to an end of a character who's been on the show the entire time. I thought >> I I hate the Maddie and Cassie story more.
>> Okay.
>> I find it just completely torturous to watch and and so so deeply uninteresting, especially because it just kind of this episode just undoes everything that happened the episode before. It's like the she's popular on Only Fans, now she's going to be in a TV show, now she's not on a TV show, now she's going to go back on Only F. And it's like I I don't I don't find that particularly compelling drama for characters.
>> There's also just something missing there. So, like was I thought Cassie was sending Nate money. Was he not using that money to even put >> or had she stopped because during >> she was like, "This is awesome. I'm getting so much money, but I'm still living in like a courtyard apartment."
Like, I I didn't.
>> But maybe the money stopped concurrent with the brief pause on her Only Fans account during the moment. But like she would have made >> I don't I just don't understand like what happened there like the >> I I I don't either. And I will say again, you know who you know who is giving one of my favorite performances on the show is Sharon Stone, >> which is like you're right, who gives a [ __ ] >> Yeah, the Brian Graaser cameo. Um >> there are a lot of I mean there are a lot of good ideas and good performances tossed tossed out here, but but what is it building towards? And I guess it's building towards like most entertainments a massive shootout.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> you know I thought it it ended with like a a really good like [ __ ] cliffhanger like FA >> you know a little out in front of her skis intellectually probably as a a character being like I don't really know who to trust. I feel betrayed by Ru. I'm going to wake Wayne up now. There's going to be like this drama. So excited for that. excited for the finale.
>> When when you when you're faced with a choice between an old friend and a Nazi, >> what can we do? It's kind of like voting in a Texas senatorial uh race.
>> Let's do Top Chef Crash Out season.
>> Wow.
>> This is spoilers for the most recent episode of Top Chef. Uh >> I >> and I would say this episode was so upsetting Kai is not even here today.
>> Yes, she she has she has taken a personal day to just think about Seager and what he went through and whether that moose killed anyone.
>> The chicken liver pate.
>> The moose. Yeah. Not the snake.
>> I enjoyed this a lot as television.
>> Okay.
>> Did you enjoy it as top chef?
>> His well his behavior >> in the in the after the uh the elimination cook which takes place over the course of several >> multiple days but then ultimately they have to cook in the woods in the heat.
>> I Yeah, I it didn't bo that part didn't bother me at all. Like I'm excited to talk about it. It was unexpected especially for a show that has increasingly trended towards actually we can go all get along actually I am here to make friends.
>> So to see someone behave in such an unconssidered way was almost refreshing.
Um I do think that the emails we got um back like asserting that Seager is actually a pretty cool guy. Um, all of them came from I guess Chef Seager at >> Well, there were there were people from I think Chicago who were like this that was actually not representative of who he is.
>> I would say that it is. I He still could be a good guy.
>> I think he just has a temper. Yeah, >> but Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. And so to see him crash out was a burst of energy in a show that hasn't had a ton of adrenaline this season.
>> We haven't had a moment like that in years.
>> In years. And the judges were shocked by it. And it was such an insane hill to die on because as you alluded to, he served melting chicken livers on a 100 degree day.
>> Yes. And I think that if he goes back and watches this show, whether he thinks it's edited against him or not, I think he would see, you know, pride comes before the fall. And there was several moments where, >> you know, whether it was the whole hog cook that sent him home the first time or uh this particular one where he was so confident that the gelatin was going to make his chicken >> cuz he's done it before, but probably not in the woods with coolers of ice, which one was left open at a certain point.
>> And then I think like him trying to like in fact, let's go to the tape on them >> that was wild.
>> Uh has never worked in the history.
Nobody's ever done that. Like I don't think anybody's ever been like, "Let's look at the bylaws of Top Chef."
>> Also, uh he >> tried to take Jonathan down with him.
>> He's also a good cook. He might be a good guy as his friends attest. I don't this is a TV show and being a good cook and a good guy doesn't have anything to do with winning the very specific peculiarities of Top Chef which involve cooking a dish to the rules but also to the technical specifications and arbitrary likings of a well-established panel of judges let alone >> vox popularuli of like a bunch of people showing up and being like I don't want to eat that. Yes, >> you lost on that alone even if it was well executed I think. So that that was wild. And it was particularly wild because as you just alluded to, he shouldn't have been there anyway. Like the show messed up earlier by giving him a glide path back onto the show that almost no contestant has ever been granted the grace of having >> I don't even know if it was really that much of a glide path. I just think it is the way that they edited the series this year to allow for Last Chance Kitchen >> to have suspense also meant that there was like a 3-w weekek liinal space of is Jen on this show, is Seager on the show, who's on Last Chance Kitchen.
>> They were caught very offguard by their own rules of a different sort. And I think Daniel Fineberg and the Hollywood Reporter has a pretty good blowby-blow of the screw-up, but basically like continuing to tell Jen that she could hang out for as long as she wanted to even though she couldn't perform on the show, and also wasn't really lighting the place on fire anyway, created a circumstance where Seager is outright eliminated, skips last chance kitchen where he probably would have been defeated by Roa, and then acts in this episode like he is entitled to his >> Justin could have taken Seager's spot.
You know, Justin could have just been like, "Yes, I will go instead of Jen. I will I will."
>> So, all that, but the bigger uh issue is the show's clearly just ravage budget is really really showing up on the screen now. And I know that we spent time two weeks ago being like, "They never go outside anymore." And then they were literally outside sweating watching their um parfets melt this week. But there's different versions of outside and being outside and a week in which they go to Asheville, which in some ways is the show at its best, being like, as chefs, we have a unique role.
>> The Asheville part was was fantastic.
>> The Asheville part was okay. And here's why.
>> The Asheville part made me want to go to Asheville.
>> 100% successful. Yeah.
>> So, if that is the goal to both highlight a place that looked awesome and also highlight its recent struggles and suggest what we can do and why we shouldn't forget about it. So, mission accomplished. In terms of the flow of Top Chef, I would say an episode in which they're like, "We're not going to do a quickfire. You guys are going to get into unbranded vans because we lost the BMW sponsorship and drive 2 and 1/2 hours to a town in which you will drive by three to four interesting sounding restaurants and eat snacks at one with no judges or the host present." Felt pretty rinky dink to me. Like have the courage of your convictions and [ __ ] film there or tell Kristen to get in one of these cars and go there too and don't be like drive by. I mean this is what I do when people visit LA where I'm like that's a pretty cool small plates restaurant and my guests are like should we go there? And I'm like no we couldn't get in.
>> Like what what purpose does that serve for anyone other than my own ego? Do you know what I mean? Like that was insane.
And then later >> you eat there if you want to eat at 4:45 or 10 p.m.
>> You're welcome to it. I'll be in bed at both those times, weirdly. Um, but like then when Roa's like, "I made Filipino food because I was inspired by this restaurant. That's my restaurant." Like, >> okay, could we see it? Oh, you couldn't afford to show it to us?
>> Thing because a lot has happened this season where I feel like they have been battling the elements. As my wife pointed out the other day when we were chatting about this, she was like, you know, it goes back, you remember the finale of of Denver where like people's bread didn't rise because they were cooking on the top of a mountain. You know, like >> I think about it constantly.
>> This this uh this is not the first time that Top Chef has made elements an element of the show, >> the rain in the Portland season. And there's also, you know, I think I am being a little bit um more easily annoyed by uh, you know, and now everybody switch foods with the person to your left or >> that was despicable, >> you know, and now mystery diners are voting and we're not or now like there's a lot like >> remember when they're like and now let us bring out our guest judge for Quickfire, a guy no one's ever heard of.
>> Congratulations. You really you really >> The strange thing to me is that Canada, which I know was a passion project for Gail and to have the show go there, was in my memory largely shot on a sound stage.
>> Yes, it was. And North Carolina and South Carolina, which seems hot as [ __ ] has been 10 shots, like 10 shoots out like at a NASCAR track or in the middle of a public park or in Asheville in the forest or not Asheville in the forest because they went back to >> they went back for the forest on the Appalachian Trail with a snake.
>> That just seems like why why' you guys do that? I mean, I guess maybe they listened to us and we were like get the [ __ ] outside and they were like you asked for it. Now it's hot as [ __ ] and nobody's mus congeals. Like I guess we should take some accountability there. Not that we can dictate what Top Chef does, but I just feel like there's been and and Fineberg and and the Hollywood Reporter, it's a really good piece writes about these two institutions that he like I I agree with Dan. I wish every Monday had a Top Chef and every Wednesday had a Survivor. I would be a happier person if it was like a 12 month a year thing. But >> and which night are the Sheridan shows running in this 12-month scenario?
>> Uh, they just run on My Vision Pro.
>> There you go.
>> I think that in some ways like they've iterated too much to keep up with maybe perceived Joneses.
>> I don't think it's iteration. I think I just think there's a there's a budget thing going on that we're not qualified to talk about or even ask about. And I think that the the the answer to the question, if you ask it too loudly, is do you still want the show?
>> And you know, it is the only reality show left uh competition show left. No, it's the only competition show on Bravo.
It didn't used to be. I mean, Project Runway and remember I was still a fan of Work of Art, the Art World one with Jerry.
>> Can I imagine Elves sell it to Food Channel like Food Network?
>> Uh, I I I have no idea. It clearly still works on some level for the the Bravo Comcast brand.
>> Yeah, >> it's just they want it to work in this way. And I think you can see the like this is a small thing because we watch it we either watch screeners or we watch it on Peacock, but it currently the show is this season the show is premiering on Bravo linear on Mondays at a time TBD each week. So much so that I I saw Kristen on social media being like don't forget we're on at 9:30 tonight for some reason.
>> Like they're not Yes. They're not loving that aspect of it >> because it's getting swallowed up by like Summerhouse stuff, right?
>> I I would assume. Um, but I do think it needs a rethink because this these this host and these judges can make worthwhile television and the finale still could be good. It's not their fault that they tried to iterate by having brothers and a couple and it >> amounted to nothing.
>> I find that the judges have been marginalized this season, too. There's way too much noise going on around them.
I don't feel like I'm hearing the thing that I love about this show and probably my greatest engagement with it was this sort of run where I think they encourage chefs earlier in the season to cook quote their food and to you can think it's cheesy to be like I'm telling a story or this is about like my background but it actually produced compelling televisual storytelling to have somebody be like I've grown up through this you know French culinary tradition tradition, but now I'm really going to start cooking the stuff that my mother used to make me put put it put my spin on it or I'm bringing technique to something that traditionally is very rustic or whatever it is.
>> I feel like Tom and Gail and Kristen and then at various points, you know, before Padma were really like, you're on Top Chef. [ __ ] impress us. Like, do it.
And now I feel like there's just been way too many goofy things that have stopped someone like for instance Sherry or or Jonathan who I just think Sherry is only now starting to be like I'm making this fritter because this is this thing that and nobody's ever had this before or whatever. And >> you know even Lawrence who I don't think is very like demonstrative about what's going on but has been cooking this amazing food all year. I don't even feel like they're celebrating it. I don't feel like they're >> Well, because I think that the ceiling this season has just been wildly lower.
Now, again, you cannot This is the vagaries of a competition show. You cannot guarantee a Buddha, a Gregory, a >> driver 50 just had this where it was like all the really great players kind of got voted off and I think Aubre's good, but like you just have like at the end a sort of weird mish mash of people.
>> Yeah. And I think that there was a moment earlier in the season where we're like, "Oh my god, Roa is another um like a Melissa or someone who's just like uh Melissa King like who's just like >> day one. Oh my god, you are rising to every occasion and you're surprising yourself and we're on a generational run here." Or, you know, you hope for someone like a Tristan who catches fire later and you're like, "Oh my god, the prince who was promised was here all along." You can't guarantee that year after year. But what we're creeping towards now is Lawrence is going to win.
um which is deserving.
>> I don't know about that either.
>> But but I but but what he has executed what he has done is a very very technically precise and satisfying execution of what you were talking about which is like I grew up eating this kind of food in a Cantonese household and I am going to be able to execute a version of it that is elevated.
>> Yeah. Like a fried catfish on a bow is like really cool.
>> And he baked the bread. That was awesome. That was an incredibly compelling performance performance on Top Chef in which you the viewer who can't taste the food sees the degree of difficulty and can just see that they nailed the execution and that's satisfying as a viewer.
>> The rest of them are just kind of stumbling their way to the finish line and maybe someone will step up. But I I find it very hard to imagine that there's going to be a level of excitement, exhilaration or inspiration in a finale for the way this season has played out. And I don't I think it would be a mistake. I think road to Lawrence and Sherry is a good final three.
>> It would be a decent final three.
>> Jonathan's still there obviously, you know.
>> Um the loss of Anthony hurts. That was a bummer.
>> That sucked.
>> But I think that it would be a mistake to walk away from this season and be like, "Yeah, you know what? Sometimes like uh was the guy that won Denver like perfectly like Joe >> seems like a really good guy, good chef, good TV, >> but like not necessarily the heights of ambition or technical, you know, >> or maybe not the drama of Brooke and Kristen or whatever.
>> Okay. So you can't guarantee that every year. There have been down seasons in terms of the excellence on display or whatever. But I think it would be a mistake to focus on that at the expense of the fact that the clear clear diminishment of ambition and budget is hurting the final product of the show.
And I don't know what to do about that because we're lucky to still have it.
>> Yeah.
>> But I don't it's I feel like that's the >> I'd like to also like at some point we have gotten so many emails about the Padma show.
>> Uh and >> did they have budget? Maybe they did. I think it might be worth checking out a little bit more thoroughly to see. Uh it's it's odd that it was running concurrently like you know >> I mean not odd aggressive >> aggressively. Uh let's wrap it up there.
>> Yeah.
>> Monday this Euphoria finale.
>> Yeah. And so there's a couple other shows I want to check out. Yes. I don't know if it'll be for Monday, but we have Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed on Apple.
>> Uh we have the Amadeus show that is on Stars that was on UK last year.
>> Yeah.
>> Um feel like there was there's probably others. I I I feel like >> we need to also address the fact that like we're getting a lot of new shows.
>> Yeah.
>> And >> it's tiring.
>> Tire. It's hard to finish them.
>> Did you watch the Burrows?
>> I did. And I didn't watch all of it, but I watched like three episodes of it.
>> Is it weird to see actors that we think of as relatively young people like >> Joe? This is just like Yeah.
>> Like >> Yeah.
>> Is like I >> It's very well done though.
>> A friend was telling me about the show and was like, "Well, you know, there's a great scene in Bill Pullman's retirement home." And I'm like, "I'm going to need you to stop there."
>> It's true. It's true. Uh Kai, Sarah, thank you. Ka, thank you. Uh Andy, thank you.
>> Kai's coming back for the Top Chef finale. That's why she's not here today.
>> Thank God. Uh we'll see you guys on Monday. Everybody have a great weekend.
>> You have a great weekend. Yeah, >> I include you in that.
>> Thank you. All the brands.
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