Monks Mound in Illinois, the world's largest pyramid by volume (22 million cubic feet), was damaged during a 2007 slump repair project that violated permit conditions by digging seven feet deep instead of the allowed two feet. The project used inappropriate methods including rubber tires and plastic sheeting, which prevented proper drainage and accelerated erosion. The Illinois Historic Preservation Agency initially claimed the site had 'no archaeological context' despite evidence of over 85 soil color patterns from distant locations (Indiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, British Columbia), indicating extensive trade networks. The site, a UNESCO World Heritage Site and national historic landmark, remains closed with its museum closed after $12.8 million in renovations, raising questions about institutional accountability and the preservation of indigenous cultural heritage.
The Roundtable Chronicles - Ep. 29
Added:to episode 29 of the Roundtable Chronicles. So, I'll give you a few minutes to settle down and come into the chat as our intro plays.
They told us the oceans were walls of sides, deep, dark, and empty. a void without end. For 10,000 years, we stood on the short land. Turned our backs on the horizon. Refuse to pretend >> that humanity never sailed, never dreamed, never wondered.
>> That cultures grew lonely like islands alone. But the jars kept turning. The trade wind still calling >> and the old maps were written in salt and in stone. Oceans are harder, not walls between us. Highways of courage where the brave always meet. From the first paleolithic canoe on the water to the last starguided raft crossing the deep. We are mariners children of wind and of courage. One single people who refuse to stay still. The silence is breaking. The dogma is falling. The earth has been speaking through every wave thrill. Cedar fleas rounded the cave long before Caesar followed the canaries where the current runs west.
Skims of the north rode the same endless river that carried the north to the vineyards and rest. Sweet potato spoke in the same tongue into sinking bones whispered out.
Pyramids rose where the sand stars were watching. Serpents and feathers towels of the sun. Oceans of arteries falls between us. Highways of courage where the brave always meet. From the first paleolithic canoe underwater, the last star guided path crossing the deep. We are mariners, children of wind and of courage. un single people who refuse to stay still. The silence is breaking. The dark is falling. The earth has been speaking through every wave thrill.
They build empires of furion never before us called contact a crime against science is law but maze cross the water tobacco left traces jade mirrors remembered the faces they saw inside the Americas rivers were highways and roads were like a threat through the sky sail on it. My promise the ocean was never a question of why. No more false stories. No more convenient boy. No more manifest destiny that history of the past is not static. It flows like the tide. And every horizon was meant to be tried. We are not prisoners chained to our shores. We are the sailors the sea always knew. One human heartbeat that crossed every ocean. One ancient promise that still rings true. Oceans are arteries not between us. Highways of curves where the brave always meet. From the first parolithic canoe on the water to the last guided raft crossing the deep. We are allers, children of friend and of courage. One single people who refuse to stay still. The silence is broken. The old lie is falling. And he sings again to every oh.
Here we are.
>> Hello again. Hello again. Several of you. Sarah, tell tell >> Greetings, Earthlings.
>> Greetings. Hello.
>> Little T. We said good night.
>> Rick Vincent, how are you, gentlemen?
>> Hi. Good evening.
>> I'm well, thank you. And you?
>> I'm doing very well. I'm gonna I'm gonna hand it over actually for a moment because Ricardo and I just wrapped an episode and I have rice on the stove, some yellow rice, which I I need to to finish tending to. Not because they can't handle it, but if I don't if I'm not in there when the timer goes off, um I don't think I'm going to get any. And so, you know how it is with daughters. So, I'm asking him, I'm like, you know, as I'm pouring in the the measuring the quantity um of water to boil, I'm like, "So, yellow rice, you don't want any, right?" No. No. [ __ ] as soon as I pour that [ __ ] in, it starts to boil.
>> Oh, it was that rice. Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah, it was this. Get back. Yes, it was that rice.
>> Go away now.
>> Bye.
>> Thank you, screwdriver.
>> So, what news do we have? So Vincent, you've had a busy week.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. Busy week this week. A lot of good information and news. They came through, got the foyer response from Illinois.
And so they they sent two big pieces of information. Um over 1,400 pages of information about Cahokia Mountains and there's an additional 1,200 more to come on Monday.
And so the the the 1400 pages included around 600 pages pertaining to the interpretive center museum and the other pages were about the monks mound repair or slump excavations. And that was what happened in 2007.
And so they they have um some really interesting revelations in both sections. Um the monk's mound repair overall proceeded on a permit that said no adverse effect would be done to the mound. Basically saying we're not going to impact the mound. Uh, but they knew it was a mound and they had some stipulations in there to only dig within up to two feet deep on the terraces and they were trying to re re uh repair the slump. Well, it turned out they dug seven foot deep across the eastern slope. They dug in three areas and they dug on the northwest and on the western side of the mound. Some of the mount had been covered in tires. Uh they actually found sections of tires that were tied together or wired together with metal wire as a earlier repair method or slump control method. Some point they put rubber car tires all over the mound. And when they dug this up, >> it it was often it was actually a erosion control method that was promoted by Purdue University for a while. Turns out it doesn't work nearly as well as they thought it would.
>> Wow. Yeah, that that's interesting. And and they said this happened in the 70s like um from anywhere before 75 to 77 um as a repair slump repair method. So, but the overall synthesis of the report is is that uh after the slump um after the work, they were supposed to continue monitoring it and and they didn't. They just haven't monitored it at all in the last 20 years. And when they signed off on the no adverse effect permit, they changed the wording in it to say there was no archaeological context here on the monk's mount. That that it it went from we're not going to impact the mound to there was no archaeological context where this work occurred.
So they they completely like said this is not a mound or this is not an archaeological site and they but they >> so what is it to them?
>> But they they had uh like weasel wording to omit anything discovered during excavations.
So So literally they said this is not a mound but we're not considering anything we dug up here during the excavations.
And so they that they left it with that kind of word >> and it was like wow that's I that's >> So were the tires on the western side middle western side?
>> Yeah the tires were on the middle western side.
>> Okay. So that that result or that erosion might have been a result of when they knocked down the smaller part of the mound that was on the central western top side, >> right? Because u there's there's good evidence that there used to be a round top mound over there. They pushed they pushed off the mound. I mean they they like excavated and pushed it off the side of the mound. So, there used to be a 10-ft tall tall roundtop mound on top of the monk's mound and it was pushed off that side and then converted to a roadway that they they tried to build a roadway up the side of the mound. They used it for horse and buggies to get their uh you know their horse drawn carriages up to the top of the mountain for a long time >> when through the 1800s there were people living there and >> and it's called Monks Mountain because there was a monastery on it for what 70 or something like that.
>> Yeah. They had a a monk monastery that they built on the mountain called or the order of lat trapped monks. And they actually built a a monastery on top of the mountain.
>> Trappist. Yeah.
>> And um >> but what not none of the archaeologists or historians or most of the researchers have ever concluded from the construction is that it was meant to hold water.
>> That's right. And by trying to trying to drain it, they have ruined that aspect of the mount.
>> Well, the other thing I found out about is when they put down these rubber tires, they put plastic sheeting down before they put the rubber tires down.
>> So, so I think what was happening was that it wasn't having the proper drainage it was designed for. It was holding more water than it was supposed to >> by the plastic sheeting being used.
>> Yeah. The plastic sheeting will will create an isolating between the upper and lower areas and make the the area on top to slide even with the tires because it's on top of plastic.
>> Yeah, >> correct.
>> That's completely idiotic. What kind of engineer thinks that that will going to work?
>> Yeah, it's absolutely true.
>> It wasn't an engineer. It was an archaeologist.
>> Yeah, archaeologist.
Yeah, this was this was something that they they did back in in the 70s and um they called it an undocumented effort to repair or slump repair, but but it was not obviously not successful. And um the other thing that was really >> they they found um there was a study done on the colors that they found in the mound and there were over 85 color patterns u monthal color chips found in different areas or localities on the mountain. So they had a like a professional study done to record the different colors of soil that were excavated when they started digging out these slopes. And the colors ranged from everything from red to blue, purple, yellow, white, I mean all different colors. And these muscle color chips that they recorded, they each encoded the colors found in in the excavations.
And well, they were different from different locations. And the evidence points to what Rick had determined years ago that a big majority of them come from Indiana.
And none of them are local.
They are in the same system, but none of them are local within.
>> They would have had to travel over 200 kilometers to get the soil from Monks Mountain for Monks Mountain. At least >> 120 miles.
>> 200 kilometers. Yeah.
>> And that's the minimum distance. The other ones, the other soil colors came from North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, and even British Columbia.
And that's >> and I still think there might be some from White Sands, New Mexico, but I I could be wrong.
>> Yes. Well, you've been right before >> once or twice.
>> Yeah. It's incredible. And I wanted to share my screen to kind of show a uh a pattern um representation of what I think it looked like um on on the mound because it's it's really amazing to see the the color patterns and and to visualize it.
And um I put together a uh depiction of of the of the mound with the the actual color patterns on it. And and that they they actually really they well represent uh snakes skin patterns or clothing like a clothing pattern that they would have used to design a a color pattern on the mount itself.
Please do. Okay. Just Okay. So, this this is a depiction of of the mound and colorized with the colored pattern. So, I mean, if I show the the fabric colors, well, this is just all random color patterns. Can you see that?
Yes.
>> Okay. So, the patterns if if we look I I can scroll here to show what it would look like if each of the different sides had a different color pattern, but these are these are indications that I mean that they they found all these colors on the mound and they were very distinctive and they have noted here where the failures occurred that were that were excavated. So these failures were actually closer to the base and on the sides of the mound where they on the west failure and northwest failure where they initially found that >> is is this is this the mound morphology that you are showing is it accurate >> this well see this is what it actually looks like on a on a scale but I did a vertical u increase to show like if you multiply the height by three. That's what it would be like. So, this is like what it actually looks like overall.
This is 22 million cubic feet. But if I increase the vertical axis by three, that's what the just to show the overall different terraces. So, this is the front of the mount. The first >> before it's exaggerated that before he exaggerated, that mount is still 105t tall and at one time it was 125t tall.
>> Okay.
So yeah, we're looking at >> 30 meters plus. So six stores high plus.
>> Yeah, >> it's a really tall mound. And I mean it's uh enormous. It's the world's largest pyramid according to the record.
I mean there's no other pyramid that's larger in in cubic feet.
There are pyramids that are taller, of course.
>> And people are screaming, "No, the Great Pyramid is much bigger." It isn't.
It just isn't.
>> It's actually not. And this is the largest pyramid in the world >> and footprint. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. The footprint of Monks Mountain is what 13.85 acres or something like that whereas Great Pyramid is just under 13.
>> Yeah. I think I think we are not taking in consideration the possible uh Bosnian pyramid, but that is one is is debatable as as natural and just excavated under. So that's true. I didn't consider that one, but that's that's possibly larger.
So anyhow, this is um showing the exaggerated scale what it would be three times the height, but um with a colorized pattern. These are actual muscle colors that they found in the mound. And I used it to show what it would look like if it had uh decorations or using the colors found on the mound.
And with the muscoi pattern, this is actually a snakeskin pattern that they would have used on outfits or clothing that the the Muscoi tribe wore.
>> So they they spread the soil in those forms making those uh interlace uh those patterns. Is that is that what you're saying?
>> That's my hypothesis. I mean, I'm saying that it's hard to tell now because of the way they dug it up with back hose, but these are the colors that were found dug up and and the actual pictures show that the the colors were used throughout the mountain, varying thicknesses and varying locations.
>> [ __ ] awesome.
>> I love the way Vince, you just casually snuck in there because they dug it up with back hose.
>> I'm sorry. That really tickled me.
>> Well, it's turned off. I mean, you can't do archaeology. I'm laughing.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it is it's truth and Vincent says it. So, you know, it was just it was quite well, you know.
>> Yeah. It's like it's it's hard to tell what it looked like anymore. But, >> but Jason, what you mean? Isn't that the normal archaeological procedure to go with the back hole in this?
>> That's not what I expect to hear when we're we're looking at a strategy map for the world's largest mound. I don't expect to hear that. Um, yeah, it looks this way because of the bulldozer. No, that was funny. That's why I laughed.
Not exactly what what >> Well, just that small part does. But >> I mean, I know >> and I would argue that it looks that way because of stupidity.
>> What do they call it? Mammoot's hole was which is how you get into it now. Um, because Mammoot, whoever however many was 300 years ago, I don't even know, but he decided he there had to be a way in. So he just blew away in. Yeah. Sort of sounds like that type of archaeology.
Yeah.
>> But what did he say, Rick?
>> And any way you want to look at it, he got very lucky.
>> He did. He did. They still use the entrance today, right? I mean, but he did get that collapsed on the right side. Yeah.
>> So, how was the monastery removed?
Um, oh, so they excavated that and found the remains of the monk's monastery and it's called the river la monastery and it was found to contain brass bells and and uh there were inverted turtle shells that this was um I this was found in the mount I mean it had been I guess it was burnt down in the 1700s or early 1800s And um and so there's there's evidence that it was burnt um by by a fire and it had been just the the post pits were found left in the mound.
>> So it was a wooden monastery.
>> Yes.
>> And >> and it pro probably or almost certainly replaced an earlier wooden structure that was used by the natives or maybe two or three generations of them.
Right.
And and so this this shows the no adverse effect decision of the permit and then how they changed that to nothing existed at all.
So initially in 2007 the site said we're doing this work based on an undertaking that we will not adversely affect the site or the mound. So they they were acknowledging that it was a mound that they were trying to do a slump repair. They took these back hose and started digging it up and they dug seven feet down into the mound. They were only supposed to dig no more than two feet down and that was an abs that was supposed to be kept at an absolute minimum. Well, they dug seven feet down into the mound. And the site said they did so because they couldn't get down below the slick and slide or the the slip face of the mound.
>> So I guess when they were up there with back hose it was sliding away. So they kept on digging.
Then in 2010 January 20 200 they changed it. They said there's no significant archaeological resources present within this area. They literally like denied the fact that it's a earth work and a mound.
>> Aside from the gigantic pyramid that is supposedly the largest in the world, there is no archaeological evidence of anything there. Is that what >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. They said it's no it's not considered an archaeological location.
They denied it at being an archaeological site at all and having they went from no adverse effect to not even a significant archaeological site present.
>> So why having a park there?
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> So it's really Yeah, it's really sad and um I mean destructive.
>> But does this mean they're going to close the park because it's no longer an archaeological site? Is that >> Well, they did. I mean, they they literally closed the park for years and it's still closed today.
>> Sadly, it hasn't reopened. I mean, they they they have been posting u news articles and and and they still have not officially reopened the museum.
>> The museum? Yes, I saw the I've seen several posts. I know Mount Lure posted about that and you >> I was lucky enough to be there while the visitor center was open and and I'd say fully stocked, but that was before Nagra actually kicked in.
I don't know what they've got left, if anything. But a lot of the stuff they had on display could obviously be interpreted as sacred relics. So yeah, that probably should be returned. But I'm not sure why that negates the ability to make replicas and display those.
>> Yeah. Me neither.
>> They had a >> abundance of caution. Yeah. I don't understand it either.
>> They had a Birdman tablet on on the site at at one point and it was supposedly a replica, but they took that off display, too.
>> Yeah. I I have visited so many mountain sites that used to have a glass window where you could look at the bodies.
>> Yeah, I don't think that's right either.
But to go completely zero science on it is counterproductive.
Well, if we don't display relics of imbued with sacred or sacred objects as is declared in Nacra, if we don't display them either as replicas or as originals and I understand that the originals they want it buried again that's fine but at least we create some replicas. How can we interpret the future finds if we have less and less representations of what was? How can we interpret in the future what we have found?
>> Are there going to be future finds? Are you going to be allowed to to dig?
>> Oh, now we're getting into the politics.
Do you want to hear my version of this or what?
>> Okay. Sure. Yeah.
>> Because I'm chopping it to bit. They don't want us to know how to interpret any of this.
>> Right.
>> We might get the wrong idea.
>> Right. But the question is who doesn't want the government, the indigenous tribes, the archaeologists, who doesn't want >> some of each. Yeah. Not very much the archaeologist, but some of each.
>> Some power. Some power. I agree. I agree. It's >> But mostly government. Do you think that the natives got Congress to pass a law?
Seriously? You know how often or how likely that is?
>> Very interesting. So I heard the president, you know, the current president and again outside of just polit politics, this just caught my ear, right? Again, I don't even watch news, y'all. TV was on the truly sad end of your time here.
>> No, you take this. We were just going to conversate on this, but the president >> currently stolen land >> forbid descendants from further decorating graves, which is, you know, a a multi-millennial tradition, but you can't do it now. It's felony.
>> So, you're telling me that indigenous people cannot decorate their ancestors graves? Is that what you're telling me?
Not in their traditional ways. No, because it involved petroglyphs and paint. You can't modify anything.
>> So, Christians can can create whatever kind of graves they want and decorated the way they want, but indigenous peoples can't.
>> Well, that yes and no. Um, Christians typically don't decorate a whole hillside, but it's a little different.
Yeah, but if if if if the guy was passionate about planes, they can make it the the the tombstone like like like an airplane or they can put the statue there. They can put whatever they want according to their >> Ricardo, can you hear me?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I've just been playing with mute making sure that's all I needed. Thank you.
>> Uh and and I just want to address one question from the chat. It says screwdriver is asking, I thought that Shaula covered 45 acres at the base.
>> Um, well, you mean >> the one in Mexico? No, the one in Mexico.
>> Oh, >> that is the largest in the world. I I I I believe he's correct on that. I I think Cholula. Yeah, Cholula. Like the hot sauce. Cholula.
>> I'm not sure. I'd have to ver check that. I don't know. I know there's a there's a bigger than the greater pyramid in South America. I don't know if that is the one, >> but I know that.
>> Check it, Vince. You know how to spell it? It's like the hot sauce. You know the hot sauce cholula? Yeah, it's really good sauce.
>> Let me see what Steve placed here. Uh, this is not what I thought I was sharing or >> or Steve you you cholula. But yeah, I do I my memory says that's correct and that doesn't mean it's right. 12 After 12.8 million in renovations, the building party reopened again.
>> The building I couldn't read it all.
>> Uh 15.
>> The building partially reopening in June 2026.
>> Yeah, this is >> 12.8 million in renovations.
>> Yeah, 12.8 million. They partially reopened the building. They had planned to have a full reopening, but then came the day to reopen it and it wasn't ready. So, they only opened the lobby and the gift shop and the museum is is uh taped off and it says closed for renovations. So, >> yeah, he's saying that no historical or archaeological artifacts are currently on display, but modern indigenous fine arts and crafts are heavily featured.
And the Salula has a 50 acre base. It's Steve saying it now.
>> Yeah, it's a mountain.
>> Yeah. So, the uh Yeah, I'll check that.
But the as far as the museum and the lack of being opened after spending $12 million, there's a lot of >> In what? In what? In back holes.
>> What did they spend? It's a It's an amazing um question because all they really needed to do was to fix to fix the air conditioning and the lighting.
>> Oh, then it's 12 millions. Yes, of course.
>> You you forgotten the main part, the main expense is it's in the state of Illinois.
>> Yeah. And in in the foyer request, they bid this to 13 contractors.
The one that won it did not fill out their pre-qualification paperwork.
>> But it but it but it did on relations.
>> Yeah. I think it was on relations like their buddy but >> acquaintance >> their acquaintance, right? So in other words, they awarded this to somebody who was not pre-qualified and the contractors that were qualified didn't get to work.
And that's a that's illegal. I mean, that's that's highly illegal to to award a nonp pre-qualified contractor.
It's >> so and and can't the public expose these things and ask for a >> family first though. Thank you. Just chat, guys. Go ahead, Ricardo.
>> Can't can't the public ask for I don't know how you call it. Uh someone goes there and check their books.
>> Yeah. And that's what's happening. see the currently they've done two news releases. First alert for Lauren Trager did a foyer followup um and news St. Louis public radio will Bower did a recent article about it. So I wrote them with some information here and I asked them for their investigation or thanked them for their investigation and then told them what I found out about it from the foyer request.
And in fact, the contractor did not fill out their form 255 qualifications from the 13 competing firms. They they did not fill out the pre-qualification paperwork. So they in other words, they awarded it to someone who was not a qualified contractor >> and they justify it in some way.
>> Yeah. They can't I mean it's illegal.
it's it's statutory uh law that they have to have qualified pre-qualifications to be awarded.
And so this is a real, you know, illegal controversy here that that could, you know, amount to major lawsuits and uh you know, it's it's obviously not open yet. And they they were awarded the work in 2019.
Vincent is not suicidal. Okay. He is not suicidal. He is happy with his position and status in life and wishes for it to continue. Um that's where that's my take so far, Vincent, on your hard-headedness on pointing out precisely what occurred and did not occur here um at this site.
Man and Thro family first always.
So tell me uh do we know or is anybody claiming this mound as belonging to their tribe or their ancestors? Is there any tribe claiming?
>> Well, yeah. The O >> cultural relationship to this mound. Any >> the Osage claimed the the mound?
>> The the what? Sorry.
>> The Oage claimed the mounds.
>> Oage. Is that the name? Oage.
>> Yes.
So >> necra can return to them the bones, the art artifacts that are imbued with the sacred or of sacred nature, but they don't give them the control of the mount.
Is that >> they don't the Oage don't have select I'm sorry they don't have individual or uh totalitarian control of the mound they have a say don't get me wrong but they don't have control so if there are questions of uh for instance if some researcher qualified researcher has a question about certain remains or certain artifacts objects That question can be relayed to the tribe and the the tribe can decide whether they want to answer that question.
They don't usually.
>> They don't usually. Yes.
>> But they'll be the tribe that goes first on reclamation of remains or objects. So do you think that when they were told we are going to take this many feet of the mount that we already filled with plastic and tires they didn't answer or they didn't get the question >> they didn't get the question at that time at that time Nagper was not uh uh abided it it was not compliance especially by Illinois >> but respect was >> but Pardon?
>> Respect was it doesn't need NECA to have respect.
>> Well, that's true. But we're talking about the state of Illinois.
They never had respect.
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, Vincent.
>> Yeah. I mean, you're right. They didn't have respect. They never asked They never asked the permission.
They just took it and they did all this without permission of the tribes. They didn't, you know, request um input on anything.
>> Yeah. But if they could continue to do this every two decades in four generations, there is no park, there is no mound, there is nothing there.
>> Well, it's currently closed. I mean, the museum's closed. They've just they have the the park that's open to walk around in, but they they've closed the museum.
>> Um I mean, it's it's terrible.
>> Later and we have less mound and less museum, >> a closed park and but we have a gift shop.
>> Oh, so we have a revenue stream.
Understood.
>> We have a gift shop. Yeah, got it.
>> So, we charge people to go stand on top of the thing we took some away from and we sell them tickets.
>> No, actually, you can walk up there for free. But, uh, the museum and the diarama that was actually pretty well made >> and a lot of that other stuff which included pelts that were dried and stretched and used for trade, you know, to represent real pelt. They had them hanging in the gift shop. They probably still have that. Um they also had things like um taxiderermy bald eagles and taxiderermy beaver and things like that in the museum because they were important to the tribe which by the way it's illegal even for a government entity to have bald eagle parts another bullpit rule.
Um, but the the meetings can um, let's see, where was I? Oh, yeah.
You can walk around in the park. You're not supposed to have a camera there. At least not a professional grade camera. I was informed of that.
Nobody in this outfit is getting saved, lady. So, to call it professional would be an absolute lie.
>> They wouldn't allow pictures in in the in the museum before. They said you have to have a photo permit to take pictures.
>> Yeah. Issued by the state archaeologist office.
>> That's >> Yeah.
>> Look, I I >> Sorry, you have to talk one at a time because I didn't hurt any of you.
>> Rick, it seems you started a second sooner. Go ahead.
>> Yeah. Go. Yeah.
>> All right.
It's not just Monks Mound. It's all the state parks and other stateowned outside activity places that ban both cameras and drones by anybody, you know, big cameras. You can use your cell phone. You can use a little cheap ass 4K camera, but you can't use, you know, what we use >> like in pilot mount where when we we had people there filming, we we knew that the we can't have professional grade cameras on on Pilot Mountain and it's just a natural park. It doesn't they don't think it has any artifacts going around or any structures or anything.
So that's interesting. Jason, you were saying >> No, no. I was just uh it was just a thought that the diarama they're describing reminds me of the the diarama in Moundville, which I I don't know if has survived this, if it's still open.
It was um again Steve I guess you could tell us but um it was gosh four years ago I guess I made it and I I think I'd heard Greg Little or somebody insinuate that it had since closed as well because of all these same problems. It sounded just like the one you were describing the taxiderermy birds and it was beautiful. I mean it was >> it was free but it would have been worth you know some a few bucks you know it was really nice the way they tried to bring it all to life for you.
Well, and in some cases, for instance, Angel Mounds in southern Indiana, they did it in a fashion that as you walk through, you got the idea of this is who we think was here. And they weren't just here, they were also there, there, there, there, there, there, and there.
And all the arrows come back, and it all intertwined.
You I I'd almost bet anything you won't find that in any of the new museums once they reopen because it's too much like they were civilized.
They had a trade network that spanned a continent or maybe a couple or three continents. They had boats that could go from the Yucatan Peninsula to the coast of Louisiana in uh three or four days.
They knew where they were going, too.
And they could carry, you know, a couple thousand pounds of cargo in that same seagoing canoe.
So, uh, the museums, if they want to be realistic, have to revamp to those ideas or they'll just tell the tale the government wants them to tell.
>> Uh, more color schemes.
>> Yeah, these are the actual color schemes.
>> If they want to keep getting government money, they will, Rick. I mean, it's pretty much that simple.
>> Yeah, exactly.
See on the mound they when they excavated they found each of these color schemes in in different areas of different locations at um at these particular muscle colors. So these are the fabric studies to show what they would look like u in in different swatches of color. It's just incredible the variety of color.
And the interesting thing is these are non-local. I mean none of these come from the Mississippi flood plane. So they had to go and get these from far away and there's an additional piece of information that >> very interesting feature that I was not you know generally aware of Vincent.
>> Yeah these are these are all the colors found on the mount and >> that they had to go far you know sort of far away. That's very Thank you.
>> So Jason does does that red look real familiar to you?
>> It does. It's what we would call Yeah.
locally know it as Alabama clay kind of um usually in more of the the white and gray is usually a bit stronger and more prevalent um than the the oranges or the orange red sort of almost ochre color but yeah yeah there's >> it's also North Georgia >> there's good pockets of that stuff around here man it's beautiful and yeah they make they make audience >> bright yellow ones northern >> they make figurines and ashtrays you know the the gamut out of that stuff >> yeah That's crazy.
>> Yeah, it's it's amazing. And they also found evidence that not only are these uh different colors present, but they found present they found in the excavations tiny sea shells that were like fossilized shell and kenopodium and spore like there was spores that were from fossils. These shells, fossils were attributed to marshland that would have had to been excavated by divers. So that means the Indians would have had to dive down in in the water and take the soil up from a submerged area which had these fossils in it and the color then would have come with that with the fossils in in the soil.
>> Huh.
And all of this you're to make sure I'm following done deliberately at Cahokia to what represent the the far reaches of the territory or what they knew or where they could go.
>> Yeah.
>> Sacred places to them.
>> All the sacred places that they that they brought the soil from came to the mound. Like they were creating the world, >> right? Like it was coming there. Oh, I see. Ah, yeah. Creating their world. I see. Absolutely. because there's nothing to see there apparently.
>> Yes.
>> Well, I'll offer an I would like to offer an alternative view of that because I don't think everything was ritualistic.
I think part of it was a form of tribute.
>> Yeah, >> we're giving you part of our land.
>> I understand that.
>> Governance fairly.
It's still kind of spiritual, but uh >> yeah, I mean I I think I think it it goes hand in hand, but I totally agree with you. That's a very interesting aspect that it could most certainly be.
>> Yeah.
>> And so and also there's mythologies, there's legends like Nanabojo and how the otter dove down in the mud to create the world and brought back mud from deep under the water in his paw and the otter died when he reached the surface of the water. Nanabo Bojo took the soil from his otter's paw and created North America with it. So that was a real tribal legend of the Alonians called Nanabjo. Then there's the Cherokee. They had the water beetle which was similar.
They created the world from the water beetle diving down in the water, getting soil, bringing it up back up to the surface and creating the world. And and then the Ojiway, they have the a similar legend as well, the earth creator, the earthbringer wish the world into existence through bringing the soils in different colors to create the world. And so these tribes from far apart had similar types of stories where they created the world by bringing soil with them and making the world exist.
>> H soil flags. That's a good one.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> When True Driver is saying that New York works has all types of soils also.
>> Yeah. and and even um Moundville like all the mounds when they excavate mountains they'll often see these different colors of soil used to build them. So this wasn't something that you was unique to Cahokia. It's it's like that everywhere. They intentionally brought the soil from far away.
>> Have you calculated how >> Go ahead, Rick.
>> Sorry.
I was just asking if you know how many baskets in Wisconsin.
>> Rick Benson >> has a number on how many baskets.
>> Okay, my turn. Um the effigy mounds of Wisconsin and Iowa and uh actually a few other places almost always had a base that they would remove the soil in the shape they were going to make their effigy and then they would bring in a white very white very fine sandy soil to make a base on which they would then build their effigy mountain.
They only did this from about 800 AD on according to most interpretations.
But uh the similar construction techniques and design techniques would be employed in Monksound which was started in about that same time come to think of it.
>> Anyway, go ahead.
No, you see the problem here is that I think you have a delay of one to two seconds and so when you are speaking we didn't hear you speak first and then we speak on top of you because we haven't heard that you start speaking because you have a tiny delay and that's what happening my I just did that question how many baskets that were that's all >> how many basket loads Well, that there were there's 22 million cubic feet. Each basket load would be about four cubic feet. I mean, there would be four basket loads per cubic foot. So, you can safely say around 80 million basket loads.
>> Four times 22. Yeah. 88 million there. And these are the the color if I take the color patterns that were found and then apply these to Muscogi, Cherokee, Yuchi clothing, these are the actual overlays of the mound and what it may have looked like.
So what I've done here is taking clothing patterns from these tribes and showed what it would look like on to have the overlay of those on the mound using the colors that were found on the mound.
just as a comparison that is really shows the amazing variety of colors that were found on the mountain and that they they could really correlate well to tribal clothing patterns and so the Yuchi had lighter colors like this. These these are all colors present in the mountain. the Cherokee, the uh Creek and Muscogi. And the the one we saw at the beginning was this one, the kind of the snakes skin pattern.
>> So, yeah, it's just amazing to see. And there's also evidence that they burnt the soil like they purposefully burnt the clay at 38 feet all around the mound. So they possib they were like baking it or burning it to be um solidified clay >> that would make it water resistant on that layer too.
>> Yes.
>> Bingo.
And they found that in the soil cores that at 38 feet consistently that there was a burn layer of clay.
>> So is this all being denied now by the latest uh >> I mean I haven't gotten any feedback from the site about this but I just found out about it this week.
I don't think that >> if they're saying there's no archaeology there, there's nothing to be found because there's nothing there, then all of this is being denied, right?
>> Well, if if they're going to answer him, they'll need another $12 million, you know.
>> Well, right. minimum.
>> I I I had asked them for, you know, for the um the the response on whether they plan to continue monitoring this site, and they said they haven't, but they're putting it in the budget for two 2027 or 2028 now that I asked them. So, they're they're going to do some studies on the slumping and and and like a LAR survey.
LAR or ground penetration?
>> Lidar. They said they would do an elevation survey and u I asked them specifically about LAR and they said we're we're going to do that in 2027 or 2028 but we haven't done it since 2007 and as part of the criteria for monitoring this work they were supposed to be doing it annually.
Is it does it cost 12 million to do that?
>> No. A survey is is just >> just to make sure >> it it's a it's a fast um survey that they could do by checking the elevation like the slump and and they could use LAR which is5 or$10,000.
It was what an HVAC system you know what's that maybe couple million tops but yeah 12 million's a lot man to not have anything open running and provided to the public considering those were public funds >> you are forgetting the gift shop >> the gift shop >> yeah but that revenue doesn't go back to the taxpayer I would be willing to bet >> well the I heard the original >> you know the original museum only >> if it follows the pattern of Illinois of Illinois historical pattern it'll cost you a dollar to use a toilet.
>> Got it.
>> But having said that, the first time I was at Monks Mound, I believe it was 1981, maybe 1980, and there was no building there. There was no museum. There was no visitor center. There was a sign board.
And you know what? Everything that was on that sign board was accurate. There just wasn't very much of.
But when they finally did have a a visitor center and the diarama, it was accurate, but the rest of it was show.
>> Hey sir, >> there was no new information.
And that was in 2011 or so.
>> So this this is just I think an a clear case of abuse of power, negligence, total disregard from history and to cultural traditions of indigenous people and still they are proud to follow Necra.
I I'm not far off from there with you, man.
>> Go ahead, Rick. Go ahead, Rick.
>> They are required to follow Nagbra.
They must comply or they will lose their certification as a museum or whatever entity they are.
>> It's just the way it is.
>> Is that why they're not open?
because they think there because the ambiguities around Nagpra so that it's like a liability almost to open because >> you might infringe upon Nagpra and you might lose your license. So I don't know >> without the relics they have nothing to show. They have nothing to draw visitors without those relics.
>> Got it. There's just no reason >> except for that gigantic mountain. There is a mount.
>> Right.
>> Right. But if you want somebody to interpret that for you, you get one version and one version only.
>> So to tell me, Rick, can you build a big house with 1.4 million?
>> Yeah, I can.
>> You can. You think you can put it anything of the best there is inside, including air conditionings and all of that, right? The best seals for the the bathroom, for the kitchen. 4 million.
>> Well under that depending on your square footage, bro. Yeah, well under that. I mean 250 to 300 a square foot.
>> So you you knew the museum. So you think you could build a house the size of that museum with $1.4 million?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes, I could.
>> Because they spend that money on the roof.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And the roof was already there.
They were just repairing it. 1.4 million on the roof.
>> Around here, 300 or so a square foot output is going to get you um you know, a pretty pretty [ __ ] nice uh nice pad in the end.
>> Just as a guess, I I would have to guess that visitor center as I saw it then was probably about 15 or 16,000 square feet.
So, it's a lot of room.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
Yeah, give me that 12 million. I'll build a house that'll stand and stay dry.
>> I mean, goodness gracious. Yeah, 12. You can you can do a lot. I mean, I've seen municipal buildings around here that that Well, we've got ones they say cost five around here, but they're just a shed. But you go and and other small ones around here where they spend three or four million and still reproduce what you call a community center. I mean, you know, a massive sort of open space, like gymnasium type floor space, you know, with AC, heating, uh, cooling, and a kitchen, you know, and a couple of little rooms off to the side. Um, you know, for three to four million.
>> They can't because they're spending 11.4 million to update mechanical and electrical systems, including the AVAC system.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And it's not And it wasn't working. It's still not working.
>> I smell.
>> Of course, I didn't have enough money.
Only 11 points.
>> I smell laundry. I smell laundry. Did somebody leave the laundry?
>> Yeah, there's smells like laundry.
>> But there's a bigger problem that Steve just placed on on the chat. That site is a UNESCO site >> and that's a huge >> world heritage. Yeah. Because once you bureaucracy that label, you can't do nothing.
>> Well, except with bulldozers. I mean, you can you can do with bulldozers.
>> It's also a national historic landmark >> and a world heritage site.
>> Yeah, bulldozers. No, no spades. No archaeologist spades, but bulldozers are good.
Yeah, that's >> No, they won't even let you do ground penetrating radar or electrolysis or any of the other non-invasive basically non-invasive tests. You can't do that.
>> You might not damage something.
>> I mean, we got to get [ __ ] damaged. You can't have this technology that would not damage something. That doesn't make any sense. We're nonpreservationists at heart. Remember, we're the same nation that decided to enact laws where the the culture could be practiced.
non-destructive technologies.
>> It's a manifestation of the way we that this country looks at this [ __ ] I think is really what we're seeing. You know, that's part of the bigger picture Vincent is painting for us is just yet again another manifestation of the way the system views um this cultural heritage. You know, for our our current president, uh whatever you think of him, for me to hear the words in a speech, um no one can say we live on stolen land. I won't allow it. Right. Okay. Well, that just to me is further uh from all the things you guys have taught me, you know, um an evidence of some deeper powers desire to not have the advancement of the the civilization that was here when we when we arrived known, you know, and and that's just very intriguing to me that to this day it seems to be very important to somebody, you know, um some power has is very serious about this and and people not wanting to know what you guys are showcasing. ing and to me Vincent this whole cahokia thing is just it's like a microcosm of that you know it shows in this one symptom the symptom exhibits the disease I guess would be one way to say it here very well um you know that's all I see >> so screwdriver is offering uh a budget of under a million because he said he just did uh a skiff that I don't know what a skiff is but 100 by 500 00 which I think is 50,000 right square feet. Is it is it correctly?
>> And the contract price for the Air Force is 1.5 million. So this is smaller because Steve just said this is a 33,000 square foot.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
So, uh, >> I think someone is making a little bit of money on >> a public project is always going to be bloated. Okay? I mean, you just that you expect that if you're truly analyzing the budget, go, "Okay, it's going to be a little bloated." But this this is far more than bloat. This is where' my money go, man. If I'm a taxpayer, >> it's Illinois.
>> Alabama cannot brag any differently, bro, when it comes to especially the way they they treat, you know, the the whole native situation as a whole and have historically in comparison to, I don't know, even Louisiana, you know, neighbors. It's just it's very sad and it's very bad and it seems very deliberate in many cases.
Um, you know, so it's a theme. It's a theme I've noticed, too. That's for sure. That they you're not coming out of left field with that [ __ ] So, one of the things that I saw on Facebook this week, which I found very interesting, was a report about a DNA study that said that Native Americans DNA uh mitochondrial and nuclear had split from the rest of humanity roughly 35,000 years ago, which is kind of at difference with, you know, Clovis first and almost everything else. But then I see but the Algangquan speaking nations have X2 from the far eastern end of the Mediterranean and some of the Patagonian tribes have well Southeast Asian strains and so it wasn't just one migration. Nobody, nobody except North American archaeologist. Just believe that one.
Anyway, that's all I got to talk about tonight.
>> Well, the one of the two books that I expect to publish this year is about Pandejo Cave. And and in case anybody is wondering, Pandejo means public hair in Spanish. Uh but um the cave has indications on 75,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago, and 30 to 35,000 years ago of occupation, including hundreds of artifacts, bones, inscriptions on bones, stones that were modified, and clear fires. Right? So academics are looking into this and this was dug by one of the most renowned archaeologists in the Americas. It's in fact the man that revolutionized how to dig through layers and how to classify them, how to do it properly. Uh including in case of caves, he was the one who first taught everybody to do it not on one side but on two sides. So you can compare several sides of the same strata to avoid mistakes to know because on caves they they go down, they go up and then the strata goes thinner or goes wider and you get wrong ideas if you just do a straight dig. Right? So after hundreds of artifacts on on all of this strata because 30 to 50% of those artifacts some cases 70% of those artifacts were dubious.
They exclude all of those that went to labs that were peer-reviewed that were confirmed by external parties as of that age and of being of human make. right?
They just put them to the side because there are some that are dubious. So to this day, the cave is still not recognized to have this 30 to 35, 50, and 75,000 years ago occupations, right?
But the evidence still stands. the testing labs. There is even a bone where they discover fingerprints of these people that were imbued into the bone, chemically recorded and were recuperated in labs, right? Independent labs to confirm that it was actually a bone that has incisions made by man and even in fingerprints infusion. The fires were rejected because there wasn't enough carbon apparently on some of them. But there are few that were more than confirmed and there are stone tools that because don't fit the models that they want from cloies and etc. They don't accept them because they are dubious.
Although there are some that have been recognized by ex experts, geologists that they are undoubtly made by humans, right? Can you because of those that are explain what you mean by fingerprints? Just sorry, I'm not familiar with that >> chemical chemical on the bone. There is more than one fingerprint that was recorded on a bone of an animal >> that was found on the layers. Right.
>> Got it. Got it. Like it handled the dead animal and >> Exactly. Got it. Okay. Thank you. For some reason, I'm like etched. What?
Okay. This is high-grade high-grade archaeology that I can't explain this to you, but but the fact is they tested in the lab and they beyond doubt found that it is a human fingerprint or a remains of it that was chemically imprinted into the bone and they could recoperate it and see the partial fingerprint in there. Right? apart from the incisions on the bone that are clearly done by taking the meat out of it or even art in some cases, right? And and the cave is still not recognized because there are artifacts that are dubious or natural.
So because of the dubious and the natural, they exclude all of those that were confirmed. So this is the state of archaeology, my friends. This this this is how we are interpreting our past, right? because you don't want to change it, right? Because clove is although it's overrun, it's still not observed.
So, we are talking at the beginning of this conversation about a man that did amazing work that is Stephen C.jet.
He spoke of something that to me is completely new that I never heard and it's it's that those kinds of evidence that we can't ignore. So they found that there are parasites on human intestine, right, that cannot survive the cold.
So if man were crossing the bearing straight, they would die in their guts.
Okay? And they are on the bottom of the North American continent.
And they found them in the South American continent. parasites that had to come through water through warm environments. They could not cross the cold otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Right? And these are I I don't can't remember how many thousands of years but it's like also 30,000 years or something like that. It's also very old. But then it will imply transianic atlant transocianic crossings all the way back this old years. And we can't have that because people didn't have boats, right? Which is a complete farce, right? So, and and and so I I'm not surprised that they're doing this to to to to Monk's mound. I'm not surprised that not even the name of the actual mount is mentioned because I'm sure >> the indigenous people would have a proper name for the mound that is not Monk's mound. Exactly. as we have on on Skunks Hill whose name is not P Bluff as as Devil's Lake whose name translated would be Spirit Lake and not Devil's Lake. And here we can see a completely inversion of what we're talking about, right? Because this this pastor, this uh priest decided that nothing good could come from these people. So it's not of the spirit. If it is a spirit, it's a devil. So, it's Devil's Lake instead of Spirit Lake. And this keeps coming and coming and coming and we see it more and more and more and the more we dig, the more we find, right? And I'm sure that Rick and Vance have know much more examples than I do. So, this to me was new this parasites and I think it's an evidence that should be displayed everywhere. Everybody that is in archaeology should know this before you open your mouth and say that there we need people crossing the bearings. Shut the [ __ ] up.
because you don't know what he's >> so correct me if I'm wrong.
>> Go ahead, Rick. Go ahead.
>> It was the work done by Carl Johannes and he identified, I believe it was 472 different species of animals and plants that couldn't possibly have migrated across the bearing straight with humans, but they showed up with humans tens of thousands of years ago. So, yeah. Sorry.
Go ahead, Jason.
>> No, I didn't have anything really to note other than I I I asked this several times and nobody in the chat has really put me off yet. Um, but I had heard several months ago, probably within the last year or so, that the latest data basically said that whatever land there was along that corridor, right, was not of either the size nor the temperate necessary to support anything that could have been called food for humans, right?
So therefore, the idea that this was used would have meant that somebody had brought their own food and had traveled really really impossibly fast through this this territory that there was that it's almost now physically impossible for it to be claimed. Um that that's at least what I heard and nobody's yet said told me I was wrong about that. But so to me that kind of shuts it down, you know, if if that's the truth and that kind of it just shuts it down. And and I don't understand now why the thought processes of people can't, you know, evolve with it.
>> Well, that's because they don't use logic. They use feelings.
>> Well, yeah, that and money, I guess.
>> Yeah. Well, that's how they feel about money.
>> When your motivations are not Yeah.
exactly how they feel about money. When your motivations are not truth, you know, truth and justice, then you're certainly not going to end up with either, you know.
>> So, Steve has an article about the fingerprints if you want to go deeper in that.
>> Nice.
>> Just played it in there.
>> Nice.
and cue >> about naming sites incorrectly.
>> We can plug the universe unveiled with the we have boats.
>> We could, but we have so many media files in here now.
>> Well, then don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. And I, you know, I found it.
>> Go ahead. Go. Go.
you.
>> That's it.
A little chanty. That's >> all there is. A little sea shanty.
That's precisely it. Um yeah, thank you so far, guys. Rick, you said you didn't have anything else. I didn't really prepare anything else either. Um, I'm always up for talking though or reading the Dotto Chronicles as Ricardo and I have been pretty much uh pushing forward with a whole lot of reading just trying to see what we can glean from these firsthand accounts. What you got, Vince?
You know, but much of I don't know, man.
Much of my work right now is there's just a lot of catching up people got to do. So, it's I'm not motivated just yet to keep putting out new when there's still so much to be caught up when Ricardo and I are enjoying this reading so much. So, I'm happy to clue into that, Ricardo, if you're down for time.
But otherwise, um I didn't bring anything particular either.
>> Well, I wanted to to clear up, you know, hey, you're right. It turns out that the Great Pyramid of Cholula, Mexico is the largest. Muntz mount is is actually only the third largest. So that that's a correction now um that I learned. So that's good. And and so this is based on the height and the volume.
>> Well, I think Monks Mound is bigger still bigger. It's still number two by square by by square footage of the base, right? Because you've got more than 14 acres there at the footprint of Monks Mound with Giza at 13.1.
>> Yeah. Even though Cholula takes number one, it still leaves Monks Mound at number at number two for that. And Cholula is just it's just abnormal, man.
It's just >> it's like where did that's you know, it's just way out there.
>> Yeah, that's a mountain.
>> And I wonder if it's all man-made at Cholula or if there's >> said Yeah, it's said to be. I think there was. Again, I don't have my Cholula history down pat here, but um just what I remember is that there was a time when it was considered, you know, a mountain or what have you.
>> Um but I also know there's stuff, you know, associating with it a primordial spring or well within it just like all the other, you know, mounds and and pyramids around the world.
>> Um I just I remembered that basic trivia fact that it it did have such a large footprint. That's all.
Another interesting aspect that I I also didn't notice and I don't know if Rick knew it uh it probably did is that and I went to see the mural. There is a mural in Pompei from 15 AD to 30 AD depicting a pineapple.
And I looked at it and it's actually a pineapple. So there aren't pineapples >> in there had to come from a tropical area, right?
So >> yeah, >> you you're talking about fruits and sweet potato and corn and all of these, but pineapple.
>> Yeah, Gunner Thompson. Yeah, Gunnar Thompson alerted me to that pineapple someplace. I think it was in Hercu uh there was a chili pepper on the side of what they think was a restaurant. So they had red chilies and they had pineapples and they had palenta. So they therefore had mace because you can't make it out of anything else. Barley corn almost but not quite.
So yeah there was there was trade. Now whether the Romans were trading directly or they were going through a middleman is my question because they you know fortunate isles or whatever they wanted to call this land far to the west. They didn't have enough information about it to actually describe it.
>> Someone did.
>> Anyway, someone did. Yeah. I think they were probably speaking Phoenician.
>> Yes.
>> Well, I I see the proposition that the Romans were bringing it from India. I think if they are going into the east, it's much likely they got it from China than from India because China were much bigger sailors than Indians in my perspective. I might be wrong in that, but the fleet. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that any when I think of the Phoenicians, I'm not thinking of the leaders of uh Carthage or Kadis or I'm thinking of the people on this ship.
>> Yes. Yeah. Precisely. And and they were the UPS of their age, so to speak.
>> What can Brown do for you except drop DNA? We don't allow him to drop DNA. H >> what we got there?
>> This article is is from Tom Emerson. He used to be the president of the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency. So this is basically to show on Monk's Mound that he wrote this article and he said his um his conclusion was any excavation would be more damaging than just letting it be. and it he was proposing a a nondig method for preserving it. U he said basically just um don't dig into it, leave it leave it as is. And this was specifically pertaining to the two parts that they dug up. So he said it in his judgment it is um likely to the best solution just to leave it like it is and and published this article about that before the excavations occurred.
and he he even had proposed stabilization remedies. Um everything about this this particular site was detailed here in this article.
And um and his conclusion was not to do anything with excavating it.
Well, Vince, I'm no I'm no engineer, but I think even a a a fishing net on top of the mound would have created much more sustainability than tires on top of plastic or back hose taking the earth down causing even more slide of the land. That that that is the things that make no sense.
>> Yeah. And he he said it did they should not dig it up. So, yeah. I mean, he's agreeing and this this is the conclusion that was reached before they did the work. So, at some point, they they completely went away from the the president of the IHPA's own recommendation, >> probably was illinformed.
>> Yeah. So, it's just interesting to see the the different varieties. But the thing is in terms of someone Steve was asking what's the next step and and my additional question is if they fail to follow the very protocols that were supposed to be uh observed in in in in this maintenance project. possibly even a maintenance that wasn't required or shouldn't be done. If they fail on those proceedings, what can a civilian or an organization do to bring not only this place, this this space, this park into safe hands and even to take the power of those that did it because I know that these guys that aren't there now are not the same that did that. Correct.
Well, right. Bill Iceer is no longer there. Mark Eserie. Um, well, so they have completely new staff, but yeah, the question is, is he still in charge?
Well, Tom Emerson is is still there. So, I think, uh, you know, he he may have uh stopped this from happening again. U, but it sounds like, you know, what's the next steps? I mean, the the IHPA and and that and the um the request that I've filed for information, they're going to issue another 1500 pages of information on Monday. And so once I get that, I'll be able to get more information and hopefully this will be um they'll they'll make a effort to preserve the mound to do the surveys um like they were supposed to be doing and monitor it and maintain it, but don't dig it up. I mean goal is not to not to dig it up.
It's just to preserve it for the future.
>> So So just clear this for me. You said before that they determined there is no archaeological value to the site, but now this group wants to preserve it.
Preserve what if there has no archaeological value according to their appreciation? I think yeah, I think they're going to need to admit that they they they were wrong that it's it's a monk's mount. It's an archaeological site. It's a world heritage site. So yeah, like Steve said, they violated the law and UNESCO guidelines. This is a world heritage site. They dug it up and with backos and then they claimed to be doing so that it's not a site. There's no archaeological value as their justification. But they said other than the fact that they dug it up, they're ignoring anything they dug up. So it's really strange.
>> So >> yeah, I mean everybody admits that they did it. Just talking to Sarah there sort of in chat like everybody, you know, even in archaeology like they're like, "Yeah, they did this and it was for this reason and it was appropriate now, you know, like now." But what I think Vince is pointing out quite well here is that at the time they weren't following procedure and they didn't have things necessary in place for this to be a legal move really. I mean does it matter now? Will they admit they were wrong?
Right? Will they go, "Hey, we screwed up." Um I mean I'm waiting on a government entity to do that. You know, I haven't I'm not holding my breath. I haven't seen it. Um they don't do that >> for they can do since they were not the ones in power when this happened. So they >> liability, bro. They they'd rather stay closed. The liability that comes with admitting fault and and then the president that is set, right? Because as soon as one admits fault for something, then guess what? Every other systematic institution is open for the exact same bar that's now been set with precedent, right? So there's probably a lot of reasons this damn museum isn't open if we're honest about it.
Well, if they don't have any pieces, that's why they only have a gift shop and the lobby open because they don't have anything to exhibit. So, >> that they they did have a movie screen.
They could show movies, but >> Well, and and the interesting thing is they they used to have air conditioning and lighting and u a they had a dehumidifier. Well, that apparently is no longer functioning. So, whatever they had before, when I was a volunteer there, when I volunteered from around 2004 to 2007, they those things are no longer functional. And um I think well, in order to to renovate the museum, those are necessary to keep the humidity at the right level to art for the artifacts and clothing, textiles, and preservation of the material. So obviously they didn't bought that on Costco.
>> No, >> because they could just go there and trade it for a new one. That was a bad move from their part.
>> Well, I'm fine with a museum, dude. I'm fine with a museum having a completely fake diarama, right? Like, you know, just sort of And what I mean by fake is not actual items, right? That's what I mean by fake, but a but a still true to life representation of what perhaps life on, you know, at time of habitation these sites were like. I mean, that's why is that against any rule? You know, that to me is an excellent use of the space and it doesn't require any and it eliminates having any actual, you know, artifacts.
>> The education on indigenous cultures doesn't require to have real objects on display. It just requires to have objects on display and and representations and images and mckettes.
>> So they can't represent what life was like at a museum about the place.
>> Well, they can.
>> No, they can.
Again, we get back to what the tribe wants to be on display, wants to be public, and if it in some way displays a cultural aspect that they don't want to share, then it can't be displayed.
>> If they had that say, >> okay, >> except for a couple of interesting museums that are actually owned by Native Americans.
uh who really don't like that aspect of Nagpra.
They want people to know what they were like. And in this case, I believe he's Oed and Johnny mix, but I could be wrong about that. But he has a museum of Native American history, Luna, in Arkansas, and it's a it's a very well constructed and uh let's see equipped and a appointed museum that tells history because Native American history as well as some prehistory but mostly the objects are real. You know, you get to see the real thing. You're not going to see remains. No, that's just that's just wrong. But some of the other objects which probably are ritualistic in nature are part of the culture and he wants to show him. So let him please leave him alone.
>> Of course, but but this museum could show how they live, what they sow, what they harvest.
Well, they did have a lot of things on display like the artifacts on the site from and they had things like u the silkworm effigy cocoon. They had a silkworm effigy on display. They had a lot of arrowheads and banner stones. But this is what I've discovered really the the three traditions that compare and really u clarify why Monks Mound had all this colored soil. Well, Nana Bojo had this legend of the earth diver water beetle like I mentioned was had another legend the earth diver and the earth maker this is the suin legend of the ho chunk wnebago and the oage quapa and Kansas they had this earth uh create earth maker earth creator creator and so all these things correlate and they show that they were they had legends and myths about creating the world by diving down in the earth. These two earth divers are diving down and grabbing the soil and bringing it back and making the world and and so the the site really correlates with Alonian Iracoin and Suin tribal legends and the earth from the site that actually comes from these locations as well. So it's like um validating the fact that they brought the soil these long distances to build the mound from all over the country and that these are the tribal legends that correlate to that.
Know anything about this Rick? The murder of the giant chestnut trees in Appalachia that helped plunge the US into great depression and starvation.
You are muted, Rick. I don't know if you're talking.
Chestnut was once a major uh contributing uh deciduous tree here in the United States and uh it was everywhere basically and it was massive and now it's pretty much eradicated nearly >> almost non-existent. There there are efforts to to rehabilitate the population.
Butternut too, that one's even harder because there are even fewer of those.
Yeah, it it it would have been even a much different place back then just just the forest you know that you look at the size of the trees that used to be here and not >> Oh yeah, but nuts specifically provided about 40% of the meal that they used to make, you know, various incendry cereal products.
>> Yes. their version of bread and whatnot.
They would use uh particularly white oak and bur oak acorns and and roast them and then grind up the nutmeat to make a flour that they use to make their products.
I know that in particular because I researched the background when I did an exploration dig at the mouth of my cave where I found tons and tons and tons of acorn horns cap >> but no meat.
>> Okay. Just the corn.
>> Yes. So chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
Jack Frost nipping at you in the movie.
>> Guess what next? The Great Depression.
Yeah, that's about right.
>> That's about right.
>> So, Vince, one of the things I still haven't understood is how did we pass from it's too big for me for us to answer you to we are going to send you these several tens of of of thousands of pages.
>> Oh.
What changed?
>> Well, they yeah, last week they they had sent me that email saying they were not going to send us too much pages. They were they said it's an undue unduly burden. Well, then this week they they just sent it on Monday. They sent the first one and they so they they just must have had a discussion and and decided to change to send it in two batches. And the first batch said we will send the next 1,200 pages next Monday.
And so I mean >> I think they must have had some kind of internal discussion to to change their mind about that.
>> Is there someone in there that is well intended and is thinking well if if this fellow wants to expose this let's just send him the material. Do you think that could be the chance?
>> I think so. Well, when I corresponded with the site about the survey data, they were very forthcoming and they said they supplied this information that they were supportive of doing the surveys and that they plan to do it in 2027 or 2028.
So, I think the site realizes the importance of it and I think they might have pushed for sending the information.
>> Amy is saying that they also knew that you wouldn't leave them alone.
Well, I mean, it's it's been a long um time coming. I mean, I asked them for this. They delayed it week after week after week and then finally decided to send it after saying it was an unduly burden. So, I mean, but I've got now got the information and um there's going to be, you know, hopefully study that can be done to follow up about it.
>> Sure. I'm expecting a full paper that we can publish on on our academia.
>> So, >> yes, it's just so much information. It's it's really deep, really good, exciting information to find out about. and all the different soil colors, their origins, the the um the vast distances that were had that had to been covered to bring this to the site are just incredible to think of that they would have had to to to dig this soil up from marshes or or underwater and excavate it and then bring it all the way to Cahokia. How did they bring it there? I mean, did they use co canoes or rafts or did they carry it in baskets for literally more? They had to go at least 200 kilometers.
There's no local sources near the site that are within 200 kilometers that have the same color soil. So, it's incredible.
>> And they answered you in kilometers. Is that it?
>> Um, the the the distance. I mean, I'm just saying what it is in kilometers, but it could be, you know, used in miles or >> Sure. It's 120 miles. I'm just curious if they decided just to be confusing if they're getting you numbers in kilometers. That's >> No, no. I mean that. But I I mean, like Steve said, yeah, we need local support.
We we hope to contact the news media.
hope you get this story out there writing letters letters to the editor or get more media coverage about this because it's it's really you know it's an major important site in in the country and it's um even though it it may be number two in the world it's it's still like one of the largest um sites in the world and um you know the largest mounds in in in the Americas north of Mexico and uh it's it's an incredible site it's it's So, um, it's it's so underrated. There's not I mean, when I was growing up, I never heard about it in school. I didn't even know about it after I went there and just started volunteering in after college.
That's when I first heard about it. So, it's it's like they don't teach this stuff in school.
>> What for? There's no archaeological value in there.
>> It's it's a good backhoe training ground.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. They they had uh said it was no adverse effect.
>> That's Alabama's philosophy. You do construction on native mounds. For sure.
>> I see it's transferred to Illinois.
>> Uh >> you do. Sorry. You do. Uh uh Sarah Bradley was as asking way up in the in the chat and I believe you do have images of them using the backhoe, right?
>> Yes, I have a lot of images of of the the actual backhoe and I can just bring those up if you give me a minute here.
And she's also saying now source from abandoned channels of the Mississippi River.
>> Um >> Rick, not necessarily the Mississippi River, but um from all over the country.
>> The blue gray clay came from Klay County, Indiana near the W bash. The uh red clay probably came from northwest Georgia at Edawa Mountains area.
The yellow clay probably came from northern north central Wisconsin near Fredonia just because I happen to know the place.
Uh the white one I said like I said earlier one of them is in question. I think it might have come all the way from New Mexico. But so we can identify a whole bunch of them and I could identify the Klay County just from eyesight.
And I did 20 years ago.
>> Yeah, you're absolutely right.
>> And and can proved by chemical testing?
>> Yeah, >> it can be proved by microscopy.
>> Even though it's almost a thousand years back, you can still do it.
>> Yes. But yeah, it doesn't change the crystal and structure of the silicas or any of the other stuff that's in it. So, you know, we just need a a a new and improved Scott Walter.
>> What happened to the old one? Oh, wait a minute.
>> What is that? Oh, the excavators.
>> Yeah, these are the pictures of the mounds. I'm going to try to share um share each picture here and um and how they how they dug it up. And so, for example, well, this is what it looked like on on the top of the mound when the excavators were digging it up. All these different colored uh soil patterns were in the mound.
And uh they they took they took the excavators and they basically dumped the mound in a dump truck and then drove it down the street, dumped it in dumped it into piles.
>> Vincent, you need to try to blow up those pictures if you can.
>> Okay.
>> No, the detail the the details are very big, but but the image isn't >> Yeah. Yeah. The details are what we're seeing. But >> yeah, especially that first one I thought was cool. a great picture. We had the sunset and you could see the back hole on top, but nobody else could see that. So, if you could go back and show that one bigger.
>> Um, just try to share that screen there.
>> So, Sarah Blade is saying, "Sounds like the four sacred callers already, but it's much more than just four, right?"
So yeah, um there's more than four.
There was like 80 different colors found in the mound.
>> And someone is so d is saying a continental tribal meeting or some kind of a mound representation all the areas.
>> Um I'm sorry. What's the question?
>> That's okay. Focus on what you're doing, Vincent. Don't worry about it.
Let me see if I can address that one.
What I think each of the colors represents is a different uh satellite entity of the whatever the polity was that was Cahokia and Monk Mountain was the capital of the continent and each of the colors represents another city within this political system. Ottawa, Angel Mounds, uh probably all the way down into Alabama, Louisiana, North Georgia, South Central Georgia, maybe as far as the panhandle of Florida, and Pensacola because all of the the platform mountains are made basically the same way at the same time. So when you find some of that white sand from Florida at Cahokia, you know that that connection was made and that has been found already. There you go. That one that silhouette of that excavator.
>> Oh, here I'll go back.
>> Okay, there.
>> So you think it's some kind of a tribute of all the areas controlled by that largest city state or something like that?
Yes. Um, >> okay. Slow down, Vince.
>> Tribute, you know, some real world connection, a representative, a representation of a political tie >> that >> I see. and probably trade tie and cultural tie and religious tie and everything else helps, but kind of like having a US flag on your local post office.
>> Except that the post office sent them a box of dirt.
>> Yes.
So when they dug into the mount, they found all these colored layers and and the modeled soil. And uh there was limestone slabs and a red cedar post as well.
And so this this was the charal house at the center of the mound. This is literally the size of the mount is 100 feet high. And you know they they were parking their cars and vehicles all over the mountain digging it up with back hose and each of these cuts is about 7 feet.
So they they stepped it down 7 foot intervals into the mound and they excavated over initially their 2400 cubic meters was the volume that they dug they dug out of this. They were not supposed to cut down into the mound more than two feet, but they dug more than seven feet.
>> And why do they have the tarp? That's like such a half-hearted effort.
>> Digging a big ass [ __ ] hole in the mound. And oh, we'll we'll tarp it.
>> It's for the earth doesn't slide. Jason, don't you understand what they're trying to do? Stop the earth from sliding. So you take all the earth out, it won't slide anymore.
>> They piled up this mound on top of the mound with the dirt right above their excavation. That's not very smart, but that that's what they did. They kept on digging and then piling it up here behind the truck and then or the the back hose and then they just kept on cutting down into the mountain.
>> Yeah. They went all the way to the [ __ ] bottom, didn't they? I mean, that's the motivations were not what they said.
>> Yeah.
And I mean that they left this parked on the mound.
The um Ann Hacker was the head of the deputy of the IHPA and she said she was shocked and couldn't believe that they did this.
She's the one that signed the no adverse effect permit. So she was totally shocked. She was unaware this was going to happen. Had no idea.
So, but she signed the permit.
>> So, you're just saying she did she's claiming she didn't know the extent of what they were doing when she signed the permit, >> right? She didn't she said in her response in the email that she did not have any idea. She was shocked that this was happening. She didn't know what was going on. She said they need to propose a remediation plan immediately and stop work. So she stopped the work at that time and it was literally three days after the excavation started that that these these pictures were taken and circulated.
So they they just went at it for three days and then she stopped the work and and told them give us give me give me a remediation plan. Put it back and um >> that picture go back. I like that picture.
>> Go back. That's the Yeah. And then zoom in if you can. Yeah. That's the one I've been wanting to. It's just so great because you've got them all there.
You've got this massive hole. They're digging out of the side and you've got one on top at sunset, you know, just chilling there looking at the view.
>> It's craziness, man.
>> Yeah, >> it's craziness, Vincent.
>> Absolutely.
>> Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thank you in the chat, Sarah Brily for the question for looking for the bulldozers.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> Yeah, it's a lot more than seven feet.
Um, none of this makes any sense to me.
I'll give you that, Sarah. I mean, from an outside objective opinion, and I've looked at what the other guys say about why they do it, and I know everybody's got this pretty calming story they tell you about the um slumping, you know, and while I have not conducted the gravitational effects on clay tests myself, I'm very dubious when I see a pile of dirt dug all the way to the to its core. Um, and as you point out, Vincent, [ __ ] piled on top that, you know, it just the story doesn't add. It doesn't stick. Something else was involved. Something I don't know what it was. I'm not accusing, but there's there's something [ __ ] else going on there, dude.
>> Yeah. even any uh excavation in in normal construction wouldn't p pile soil above the excavation like that because if they're worried about it collapsing that's you know that's even bigger risk of collapsing and they shouldn't be parking the vehicles on the mound anyway but >> does that backhoe >> if the mound was collapsing or subsiding do you think they would put something that is at least At least what? 10 tons, Rick. That backhoe 10 tons.
>> I would guess it's closer to 20 >> to 20. Okay. I didn't want to exaggerate because I didn't know. I really don't know. So 20 tons >> on top of something that they say it's collapsing. It doesn't make much sense.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> And well, this mountain was at least a thousand years old and it had not collapsed. Um, I think what they were looking at is surface erosion and um, they call it slumping, but the fact that they had put down plastic sheeting and tires back in the 70s did not help. You know, um, this this would have kept water in and not allowed it to properly drain like it's like it was designed for. So, while it was designed to hold water, it was only designed to hold the amount of water that it originally had, not to hold plastic sheeting around the mound.
Well, if you break if you break what uh I think it was Rick that described uh this uh almost fired clay on top of the earth that would isolate the bottom part from the water and would remove the excess of the water in the in the earth itself on top of that layer. If you break that rigid layer, then water will start to infiltrate in the middle that was never made to hold water in it. And that can cause serious damage. Even I think that if they created those pottery like layer, it is because they want to protect whatever it's buried in that to keep it dry, right? Uh either bodies or artifacts. It's to protect that.
>> No, I disagree. I think they wanted to keep it wet because then the organic remains will be in an I can't say the word uh non oxygen environment.
>> An anorobic and and >> thank you.
>> Anorobics.
>> Anorobics. Thank you. Yeah, >> that's just my uh hypothesis because they knew that remains would last almost indefinitely without any oxygen in in the tomb.
>> I understand what you're saying. Okay.
>> So, they are isolating that from the air.
And the uh pot or fired clay, whatever you want to call it, would also possibly serve the function as neutralizing acid in the water that does get in there >> by some kind of filtration. Is that what you're saying?
>> Well, that in the limestone, it would just neutralize it.
Well, we'll do whatever we can to keep helping vents and pushing this forward.
>> Uh, and this is the kind of thing that the institute likes to do. So, it's it's to preserve >> and and that's why we have Vince on that position.
>> Right. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
>> No better man for the job. So, let's see what else we can find. Well, you you did magnificent work in managing for them to change their mind. And it's a lot of paper you'll have to look into for the next week or two or three. It's 50,000 53,000 pages, >> right?
>> It's a lot of material.
Well, it's just a practice session for when he puts on the Smithsonian.
>> Yes.
>> Give me my giants back.
>> There are none. I've got a >> There are none. There are no giants at the Smithsonian. They're all sold to private collections or destroyed or burned.
>> Yeah, >> I know. They wouldn't. They're too smart to keep that kind of evidence still on their vaults, I think. I might be wrong.
>> Only one way to find out. Let us in there. It's our museum, right?
>> No, it's not even the Governance Museum.
It doesn't recognize even American law.
>> I mean, as Americans, it's our museum, right? It's supposed to be. It's supposed to be.
>> It isn't. Is >> Dr. Smith wanted it. It wanted to be the people's museum, but he couldn't give the money to the government without it going into the general fund.
They should have just built it and, you know, financed it.
>> Well, you know, according to our constitution, we should have already overthrown our government by now. So, I mean, who, you know, what really counts anymore?
>> Yeah. But I think that would lead in to greater chaos.
>> You're not you're not aware of the chaos enough then, bro. You you're not aware of the evils that >> if you think that we shouldn't listen to Thomas Jefferson who said, FYI, every generation, 25, 30 years, you're going to kind of need to do what we're doing here. Um otherwise, you're going to lose this stuff.
>> Yeah. that involves too many loss of life because there are still those that want to protect it and those that want to protect it hold the power of the military. So >> yeah, it's just about that's right getting the rid of the centralization man. I mean that's what he was talking about foreseeing was that you know over time you're going to have the the power is going to want to coalesce and centralize. That's what it always wants to do. Um, and if you're going to keep the system we're trying to set up here, you're going to have to take this revolutionary spirit and whatever that means in time, whatever transcends from each generation to generation, you're going to have to reapproach it with this fastidious nature that we have to try to keep these powers from coalesing. Um, that's what he was saying. Not like bloody revolution, but see, we're we're too far now, right? Like we went we went too many damn generations without seeing to it. And by the time everybody's now aware and start starting to to sort of wake up to the the fact that we're in the hands of something insidious, I mean, it's a little too late. You know, by the time you realize the flot camera is bad, they've already moved on. You know, >> that the tech is is far more advanced and and it's like, how do we do it now?
How do we do what Thomas Jefferson said now without some sort of nasty >> how many crazy bad crazy groups armed to the teeth would just expect something like that to create total havoc.
>> I I'm not suggesting it but the thing is name me another way that we could do it right.
What happened to the good old slap in the face? Behave yourself, right? The power of the masses. Just that >> separation of dude, the separation of the elites and the masses has has become too disperate. When all you do is put elites in power, people who live in totally different realities than the mass and have for their whole families and generations, right? you're just you're gonna have this divide and it's only going to grow. And I mean it's kind of common sense, you know, you put somebody that's not from your world in charge of you, pretty soon you're not going to recognize your [ __ ] world.
Um, you know, >> yeah, Steve says that the average American will not risk their lives or property to revolt. The only change is the states taking action to a new political party that is completely organized differently.
And then it will fall again in the same as you're saying every time.
>> They're laughing at us now because they know what we'll swallow, man. I mean, look, they still we're not allowed to talk these subjects we talk about are like we have to like fight to just try to get basic [ __ ] out, man.
>> Uh, someone asking Vince before we close here. We're getting pretty close to the mark. Uh so Sarah Brightley was asking if you have contacted Where is it? Where is it? Where is it?
The chat is moving so fast. Have you Have you gone through public access counselor PAC?
>> Oh um no. I went through FOYA Freedom of Information Act and filed the request directly through that. But >> yeah, I saw that >> that did the trick.
Yeah, there were there was some good questions there about, you know, hey, if we could get additional data about their daily logs during the excavation, the supervisor logs. Well, they didn't send that information.
They sent a report that was published several years later, but nothing from that particular time >> for supervisor logs.
And the other interesting thing I found was the soil cores they took and the carbon dates from those soil cores were above the repair zones. All car all the radioarbon dates that were from around 1,00 to,400 AD were soil that was dated above that burned clay layer. So not original subs not not not below the the burn clay but above that. So that indicates that the mound is older than than that and the burned clay layer was a transition between the the slumped area and the original mound. H.
>> So there's a chance that the mount I mean the likelihood is that the mound predates that burn clay layer layer and predates the 1,00 to,400 AD time frame that they carbonated, >> right?
So, it makes it really interesting because the mound could be archaic, you know, like they found an they found a K9 burial on the top of the mound, a dog burial that Paul Parlamy said was archaic. They radioarbonated it >> to the late archaic.
And then TR KDR, the guy who did this excavation, didn't include that in his report.
And >> Steve Steve is saying for you to save this site. It's on the chat.
>> Okay.
>> Attorney General. Yes.
>> Fear is the emotion they farm, harvest, and feed on. Absolutely. One of the primary ones, Matt. Thank you.
>> Yes, that's a good point.
>> Two hours.
>> There is a cure to that >> and the cure is to be fearless.
>> It's true. It's true.
>> Yeah. Fear not.
>> Completely true.
Fear is a liar.
But yeah, that's it. To be immune to it, guys. Don't Don't fall into the fear trap. Don't let the sickness Don't catch the fear. I think I'm getting the fear.
As a final um >> final goodbye Sarah Brayley >> just remember the set in stone megalytic conference Saturday August 8 2026 between 11 and 700 p.m. in Putnan Country Veterans Memorial Park.
It's free and open to the public. You can submit your tickets by a link somewhere that I don't have here, but I you'll find it on the unique explorer and you'll find it on Facebook X.
Um, I'm hoping that this is a success because it was done with a lot of hard work and a lot of love to prepare this with information that is not only not openly given to the public and especially not taught in school. there will be several people speaking uh so recommending everyone if you are in the area it's not every day you have a free conference and it haven't have a space for kids where they can listen to stories and and be occupied u so recommending that we had George Howard on universe unveiled on this past Wednesday he's having interesting projects. Some of them are pretty close to some of the projects we have at the institute, although somewhat indifferent in in nature.
Um, we just streamed our >> Are you saying we've got copycats?
No, we're saying that probably the lines of wisdom converging give similar results.
I'm being as polite as I can.
>> Okay.
>> Good save.
>> Got it.
>> What did Rick say? I didn't understood it.
>> Rick said good save.
>> Imitation is the highest form of flattery.
>> Flattery. Yes.
>> Uh I'm not saying it's the case because we can reach the same conclusions by although it it somewhat dismisses diffusionism, but uh but sometimes it happens. Sometimes >> we're here first. We can say that.
That's a fact. We're here doing these things first. Yeah. I mean, >> no. But I'm glad because I even heard in this uh interview that they are now planning on doing shows where they read text and then debate about it.
>> Great. Great. The only difference is they've got money. I mean, so that's cool if they want to copy us and let us also, you know, get the promo from all their money that they have.
>> I would put it like that. George George is a very it's it's a very hardworking in creating the dissemination of knowledge that he he's been working for many years. We don't need to agree in everything he believes in or not. But at least he's doing something to try and educate people on what he thinks it's best. And we can't ask for anything more. If it if it is right or wrong, it's not for me to judge. Uh >> no, I'm not talking negatively about anyone. you know that I love working with everyone, especially people that have the money to help get this material out to people because, you know, we're doing >> and we are in different areas. He's is in impact is in and and real French and and not fringe uh historical.
>> Of course. Of course.
>> We are in different areas. So, we we don't clash with one another.
>> Um >> that's good to know. That's good to know.
>> Yeah, we don't clash. our our subjects don't even overlap because they're not looking at what we are looking and vice versa.
And although we are very appreciative of of what they do because it it adds on to our knowledge.
Um and um as I was saying and we are finishing we only have two more chapters on the stardust on um the sheman and the philosopher. The next will be uh determinism versus free will. We just did catastrophism versus uniformitarianism.
Wow. I managed to say it.
>> You did it.
>> Um, >> and we'll pick that up sometime after you arrive back on this continent.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> All the gods willing, which I hope I can come return.
Um, they allow me in. I hope so. Um, and I think that's pretty much it. Uh, you still I think I think Patreon still has Lost America there where people can go, right, Rick?
So, strongly recommending that. Go ahead.
>> Yes, it's still there. 12 episodes.
>> You won't find that information elsewhere, that's for sure. And those people real heroes compact form.
Yeah.
No, I'm just saying that those are to me real heroes in terms of digging the history of America and they are not known by most people precisely because they are masters of what they're talking and very difficultly debated. Uh and so it's people that they they don't want us uh openly. Although good news is that a gsl uh with uh I don't know if I'm going to call her Dr. Georgia, although she never signed the doctor name or haven't never asked for that name. She's now actually the director of AGSL. um uh preservation area or uh records area and they are now interested after receiving uh from the materials that have been selected on on um a ancient earthwork society they now also want the reports.
So they they first said they were not interested in the reports just the maps but now they want the maps they want the reports they are preparing classes to show to students the maps from Jim shears and to study the reports done for those maps they want to learn how we did the maps so all of that are excellent news because you won't find work like that anywhere else it's it's um so that's good Uh, and AGSL is the second biggest repository of maps in the USA, only second to the Library of Congress.
>> Yes.
>> So, that is good. And, um, I'm hoping for more projects for uh, ancient Earthwork Society. Um, and that's a positive. And I think that's it. I have nothing yet to add. So if anybody has anything to add, please do.
>> Well, congratulations. That's a big step.
>> Yes, it's it's very good. And and Georgia, she's she's uh very open, very interested.
Um she doesn't take any sides. She's not concerned about what archaeologists think or or don't think. She's only interested in the data, which is wonderful. And the teachers seem to be interested in the data. And there are several students now interested in the data, too. The problem is just the politics of what can be public and what can't. But still, they are preparing classes with no cell phones, nothing that can be recorded. and they can look at the maps and they can look at the at the reports. They can't photograph them or report them in any way. But but some places need to be preserved in that way.
So at least they can be seen and and and and looked at and something can be learned from them. Others are completely open.
So they will be soon available for everybody to download. Each map is about from one gigabyte to 7 GB. the maps that Chim has created once they are properly scanned and digitalized and they will soon be available to everybody to go and look for those that are be able to be public.
So that's that's to me that's that's magnificent and that's the work the hard work from uh Tom Soulberg and Gary Meyers that have been pushing this for at least two to three years.
Um and um and that's excellent. So let's see where that leads. Of course, nothing would be possible without team shears creating the maps to having 60 years of working on it. But >> yeah, I was wondering how long it was going to take you to get to that part, but um yeah, it just so happens I'm going to Monday I'm mailing Jim a copy of a map that was compiled in 1999.
But I've I have uh cited parts of that map, details from that map in I don't know probably 15 of the articles I wrote for Ancient American. And Jim has often asked me about the origin of those details. So I'm going to send him a copy of the whole map.
It's magnificent how a person at his age is more active than an archaeologist in his 20s.
>> And you've been with him Yeah. this days and you know he's constantly paper in hand and taking notes and doing calculations and and writing down new ideas and constantly.
>> So at 90 years old. to which it's just an an an incredible it's a a mind like like >> well in that three weeks >> yeah in that three weeks I spent with him starting in late June I guess it was uh mid June whatever it was um he filled one five subject ring bound and started on a second one in that three weeks. So yeah, >> that is an example to follow.
>> Yeah, that is the the right example.
Yeah, >> but yeah. Anyway guys, it has been a wonderful evening. Thank you for having me.
>> Let me go back to the chat.
Yes, thank you uh wonderful people in the chat. Thank you very much for all your comments and interactions and we hope to see you all in a week.
So, thank you all. A very fond farewell.
Thank you very much.
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