Alberta’s Big Chance: Escape Ottawa or Stay Trapped? | Fergus Hodgson

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[00:00:00]Good day everybody and welcome to the show. Today's guest is Fergus Hudgson.

[00:00:05]Um Fergus is the director of Econ Americas, the publisher of the Impunity Observer, and he's written a number of books, The Latin American Red Pill, and financial sovereignty for Canadians. Um he brings a sharp perspective on both the markets, government policy, and economic freedoms. Um we have had Fergus on the show prior. Um it's been a little while, but we it's a pleasure to have you back, Fergus. Nadine, I'm I'm so glad and and you were so kind to give me a space. I I feel like it's been almost two years now since my book came out and we discussed that. I cannot believe how much has trans transpired since that time.

[00:00:44]>> Absolutely. All good things hopefully on your end and of course and on the Alberta side, which is what we're going to speak primarily on tonight. Um lots and lots has transpired.

[00:00:56]Well, your own book came out about was it six months ago?

[00:00:59]>> Yeah, about that.

[00:01:01]>> Yeah. So, you know, there's been a in terms of the content, you're doing great work in that regard. And the truth is there still is a s a surplus of let's say there's excess demand. There's still a huge demand for Alberta oriented content. So, anybody who's working on this, I I encourage them to uh, you know, get into it that that this is a a topic that still lacks, let's say, legacy media, real real research and investigation. So, that's where citizen journalism can step up to the plate.

[00:01:31]>> Wonderful. It's so true. you know, um you would think with all the noise that really does happen around Alberta independence, um that there would be more facts and it would be more mainstream, but unfortunately, you know, the best one of the best articles I've seen actually presenting some facts was actually done by a CBC reporter of all people. And you know, it actually was presented with a little bit of objectivity. Um, but again, it it it just omits so much of the details as to why this is such an important movement and such an amazing opportunity for Albertans that I'm really hoping tonight just a different perspective from a different person um like yourself to kind of share some of the the highlights as to from an economic standpoint, from a political standpoint um but also from you know some of the concerns that we're seeing come up in uh you know the so-called leadership of this movement.

[00:02:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean you hit me with a question nine you know so I'm glad to engage with all those topics and just just like you I feel privileged to be alive and to have some role in this because it's such a historic opportunity. I don't want to miss it. I don't want to I don't want to let this pass by or fail.

[00:02:53]>> Well let let's start there. Fergus. So, you know, how why is it that you see this as such a historic moment?

[00:03:01]>> Yeah. People who know I mean, we've only known each other online, unfortunately, Nadine. We've kind of crossed paths at various times, but people who know or have been longtime friends know that I have been pursuing freedom around the world for more than 20 years. I left New Zealand when I was 19 years old and I came across you know when I was undergrad I came across all these great thinkers and Harry Brown had a big impact on me. So from a young age when I was let's say about 20 years old this was leading into the 2004 presidential election in the United States. So George Bush was running for re-election against John Kerry. I would listen to all the third party debates to get different perspectives and I found it an incredibly fascinating time. Anyway, so since that time I've had this awareness of let's say econom the economic and moral basis for liberty, classical liberalism and even anarch capitalism if you go if you take it to its extreme or to its logical conclusion the so I've been looking around the world to try to find some kind of escape and the scary realization I've had is that there basically is nowhere to go that uh we live in a world of largely terrorist or socialism as the status quo and most people are blind to it because they've just grown up with it. And so, for example, there there have been attempts to create charter cities or startup cities in various jurisdictions around the world, notably Honduras. And so, I literally flew to Honduras in 2013 seeking to be invol involved with this to say, we have all these sick or toxic jurisdictions.

[00:04:42]Is there a way to build new jurisdictions? And so the hope was that in Honduras that could happen. It has largely failed there, although not entirely.

[00:04:52]But so I've been looking around the world and my view is that it's very rare to find a constituency of people who really have a tendency towards freedom or a preference towards it and also to have the let's say the political class on board with it also. And I just see Alberta of all the options out there as the best right now.

[00:05:20]The rankings tell you that a place like Switzerland is about the best existing country for for economic freedom. And then if you were to decide to just move to the third world, you could go to a place like Paraguay and avoid many taxes, but you'd live in a very undeveloped place. So Alberta offers the opportunity of a startup country that could be basically yes the most economically free and let's say high-tech or next level in terms of its governance greatly exceeding the peer nations that exist today. So like I said, I've been hungry for this and I just feel like uh socialists have they've taken over almost everywhere and they have >> well the pro yeah the problem is that there's this is the basic problem of government that you have rent seekers who just borrow into government and they make it incredibly difficult to get them out. Right? And notably public sector unions are an example of this. But there are all sorts of other cronies in the mix. And supply management is one of the famous ones in Canada. And you could even say that equalization has become a policy right now with rent seekers who have borrowed their way into the political process and just refused to let go. And so you need a disruption.

[00:06:41]You need a disruption like an innovation that will throw off the lethargy or the the dis dysfunctional status quo. And this is that opportunity. And I just don't see any other jurisdiction or constituency having the the stomach right now to actually pull this off. I would love to see other places secede or start new jurisdictions, but we're we're a little bit stuck since the fall of the Soviet Union. We're a bit stuck in there aren't as many new countries coming to fruition, unfortunately. And I would like to see more innovation in that space.

[00:07:16]The I my personal view is that in 50 years time microates will really be the the the promising nature promising jurisdiction like Likenstein or Monaco or San Marino these these places.

[00:07:30]>> Yeah, I don't disagree with you but I think it always it has to start with one and I think Alberta is certainly in the best position from what I've seen looking around the world to kind of do this. Um but you mentioned >> the many reasons many reasons nine.

[00:07:47]Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:07:47]>> Yeah. You mentioned freedom and as you know Bruce Party is is no stranger to this podcast and Bruce and I have become good friends and it's become a matter of people what people define as being free for so so many people today if you were to say oh we we live in a free society.

[00:08:05]We we are free. What do you mean that we're not free? because you you see this even here in a lot of our larger cities like Calgary and Edmonton. A lot of people are resisting this idea that Alberta can do something better. So what's your definition of freedom?

[00:08:21]>> Sure. Okay. I mean there's the famous saying that none are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they falsely believe they are free. I don't have it in front of me right now to read to you but fundamentally freedom has three attributes or three pillars. Uh one is that you have the capacity to provide for yourself. You have some economic self-sufficiency. So that's the freedom too. The other is a lack or a way to get around people who might impede your autonomy. That's uh freedom from. And then the third which is maybe neglected is your own moral integrity. You have self-control to overcome the impulses that would lead you astray. So you not only have the freedom in terms of the resources, the a way to get around anyone who might interfere, but you also have self-control, you have inward in inner freedom. And so of course we talk about policy. Of course that is maybe the the easiest way to identify freedom through policies. But I believe it's a much broader concept than just the political world.

[00:09:30]>> That's actually a really beautiful answer. Um because I often talk about freedom, but it's usually freedom from right and freedom too.

[00:09:39]>> Um but freedom of course as as you know many guests have spoken, freedom comes responsibility. And that means we have to have the level of self-control and self-awareness to know where our freedoms end and where somebody else's begin. So that's that's that's deep.

[00:09:57]A philosopher and an economist.

[00:10:00]>> Oh, Nadane, I've thought about this a lot over the years. So yeah.

[00:10:04]>> Yeah. So what what are you seeing right now that um you know raises some flags for you though on the independence movement? So Bruce and I have talked about this a number of times. There's a lot of people that are complaining that there seems to be no real leader of this uh independence movement is one of the you know things that do certainly come up quite a bit but um you know there seems to be a lot of egos um you know now we've got people that have caused more harm than good. You know elections Alberta has put everything on hold because somebody has leaked a list. Um, how how do you bring a group of very self-motivated, very driven individuals who want to see this independence movement together?

[00:10:49]>> Yeah. So, gosh, Nadine, there's a lot of terrain to cover there.

[00:10:54]First, I don't believe there's going to be some kind of leader on a white horse to come and save the movement. Further, I'm not optimistic given the strong personalities involved that there'll be some kind of unified campaign.

[00:11:10]We're going to have to do the best we can with various coalitions or organizations working towards the cause uh to towards the referendum without it's it's it in in many ways it fits with the fundamental idea of decentralization to begin with that we're not going to have a centralized movement and I yeah so in I would like to you know, let a thousand nations bloom.

[00:11:41]Let a thousand different organizations bloom in this space. And I don't want people to wait around for direction from up high to tell them what to do. I want them to just get started on what they believe will be best.

[00:11:53]So, as I said, there is still excess demand. Now, people in Alberta are suspicious of legacy or regime media, their right to be that way, to feel that way.

[00:12:06]and therefore they are going rapidly to YouTube or Twitter or or X or wherever it may be to get alternatives and there still is demand for that. So okay so first I don't think there's going to be some kind of unified campaign. I think that's impossible given the personalities and the way they talk about each other unfortunately.

[00:12:27]Uh in addition, it is very unlikely there will be any support from the established political parties or even even even think tanks, even established organizations in the policy process. In many ways, this is a truly populist movement in the best sense of the word.

[00:12:46]Right? So populism can be a a peorative, but in if you are dealing with a broader population that has legitimate grievances and that has healthy proclivities, populism is a is a good thing. It's basically a a rejection of a a parasitic or a sick ruling class. And that is the case obviously with Alberta.

[00:13:09]Now, so I'm trying to think that's that's so those that's my basic view that one there's not going to be any kind of coalition. We're not going to get any support from the established institutions. That means that every man and his dog has to get out there and get started.

[00:13:29]>> Yeah. And I I I I tend to agree with you. I think unfortunately we have had seen much of the leadership um or lack thereof in this uh movement that just try to silence other voices that are even supportive of it. Um and I think we need a variety of voices that come at things from a different perspective, with a different style, with a different face, everything. Because I think what's happened is we've really appealed well to the rural Alberta, but we have not appealed to that white collared professional um urban Alberta. And and I, you know, it's funny. Somebody said to me, N, you know, you're calling down rural Alberta.

[00:14:15]I'm like, absolutely not.

[00:14:16]>> Um because rural Albertans are some of the smartest, most sophisticated people I know. They deal in commodities every day. So when you talk about money and trading and um you know just deep down knowledge and understanding of matters I mean they understand real life. So don't think that I I'm by any way shape or form you know saying that somehow rural Alberta is less sophisticated. I think they're more sophisticated and more grounded in reality than most give them credit for. But there is a certain level of credibility I think that is sought and and it's sought in appearances and it's sought in um a projected image that the urban centers are just not seeing from this movement. Am I wrong? Am I right? Am I >> okay? So yeah. Well, you're right. And predictably, the rural parts of Alberta retain, let's say, the strongest sense of patriotism towards their deacto nation because they are less transient. They are more connected with just the nature, the biology, the the heritage of the of the place. And whereas urban people tend to be transient just by their nature and also if they grew up in the city, they they they're they're less connected to the historic Alberta.

[00:15:40]So the the but you're pointing to I think two. So what are the what are the big concerns we're facing right now? So we're in May and we're we've got five or so months until the until the referendum. I think there are two big challenges we're facing. You you touched on one of them that is how to engage with broader demographics and the two would be how to either engage with or counteract what I call regime media or legacy media because it just seems to me and this last week was an incredibly brutal uh time in terms of attacks from regime media that this is we have these two big problems.

[00:16:25]One is that there is a portion of the Albertan electorate that have only heard demonization of Alberta independence that they're just right-wing nut jobs or whatever. And that is inaccurate. It it it doesn't address the actual concerns.

[00:16:44]And then we have this media landscape that has easily $2 billion of taxpayer funding. And so we we really lack, let's say, an int a broader intellectual elite. We don't we're not it's not zero, but we have we're we're it's a David versus Goliath fight. So as much as we can identify and support people in the intellectual world, I know a professor at the University of Lethbridge, she's afraid to come out and speak openly because of because of retribution. Uh Barry Cooper is one at the University of Calgary. But as much as we can lean on them and raise their stature, I think that is healthy. So we yeah you we have this challenge of the the chattering classes being so heavily against this and then also finding a way to better message ourselves to meet the different constituencies and in particular I've mentioned this to a few people the the uh RFK uh constituency. So here in the United States we have this make America health health make America healthy again movement and it brought together a different constituency of independence of people who wanted let's say more bodily autonomy who wanted things like raw milk or just the the almost like crunchy hippie types who didn't fit into the liberal party or Democratic party box and that to me is really where there is lowhanging fruit for growth of the movement reaching out to people who for example people want medical choice, who feel like they don't want a monopoly, they want alternative treatments, they should be able to get those access those things more easily. But we have a very dysfunctional and anti-competitive uh medical system in Canada and Alberta can obviously change that overnight.

[00:18:29]Yeah, that's so true because um you know I we we have done this division um and yet at the same time there's so much opportunity here for every Albertan, not just one group over another group. And of course we we pit left and right and uh liberal and NDP and conservative with all these titles and names, but I think what people have really forgotten about is the opportunities what real freedom could present. Um and and that was part of why I wrote the book was bring opening the conversation with people to bring in >> Yeah.

[00:19:07]a a broader audience that you could start a conversation with a friend who's like, "Well, you know, I really don't think that we should be doing this." And then you also have this romanticized idea of this Canada, in my opinion, that no longer uh exists.

[00:19:22]>> Exists. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:25]Yeah. So, let me let me think. I had a a lovely response now. I've forgotten it, but I tend to agree that putting labels on people is not helpful uh because it it creates an us versus them scenario.

[00:19:41]However, there are some people who just straight up hate Alberta, you know, and they are within Alberta's borders. So, it's very hard to reason with them, you know. So I've noted that if you do not like western civilization which yes whether whether we are big supporters or not includes Christian values or includes uh European heritage you if you are you a dead against that well there's nothing we can say to you really because Alberta is part of western civilization and proudly so or if you really have a socialist chip on your shoulder and hate the rich or hate success and feel envy, there's not much we can say to you either because you're going to want to continue to steal from successful Alberta and give to Quebec or Nova Scotia, wherever it may be. And so those people are in, let's say, the quarter of Albertans or I'd say they're fewer than a quarter, but they they really there's nothing we can say to them because we Alberta independence doesn't really serve their interests. if if like I said if they if they have a chip on their shoulder versus um western civilization and also just against success or meritocracy well yeah I we we just need to move move beyond those people because they're a waste of resources >> well if you take a look at even the bureaucracy within Alberta this is one thing that uh Bruce party has often said is that if we're going to leave Canada um in which case I would argue that Canada left Alberta a long long time ago andor has really just included us at their own convenience. Um the reality boils down to um if we're going to leave the Canada in Alberta, we're really almost wasting our time to begin with.

[00:21:26]And there's 30% of the population who no matter what you say, you're not going to convince. But there are 30% on the other side that are already 100% strongly convinced. It's the people in the middle that still want to rational rationalize this and reason it out that still want the the conversation, the debate, who I think we can win over enough to win a referendum. But, you know, that means I think broadening the message or polishing the message enough to include them in the conversation.

[00:21:59]>> Yeah. Well, so first, who are the people who most support this right now? Right.

[00:22:05]people who care about individual liberty and people who care about let's say the rural or or economic uh independence of Alberta, right? So the farmers, oilmen, what have you, or ranchers, they're already on board. And so it's an easy sell for me because I care about freedom. I'm going, well, this is a big win. It's obvious that Ottawa hates freedom, you know, whether it's free speech or property rights or what have you. So Alberta is a big win versus that.

[00:22:37]Uh so I think that the real challenge and this is this is so it goes beyond somewhat my expertise because I'm not an artist or a movie filmmaker will be this appealing to hearts and minds and portraying the Alberta distinctiveness in a positive or glorious fashion. And it's kind of like like a brave heart for Alberta that Albertans are these these brave men fighting against a tyrannical ruler. And I in that regard I think Alberta has an incredibly let's say attractive brand or identity. And so I think many people around the world would see Alberta as something to be admired.

[00:23:22]So the more we can promote that Alberta is a a a proud nation, I think that's really the winning ingredient.

[00:23:36]And I I came to this conclusion. I've written about it before after listening to an audio book about why Brexit succeeded because people can get flooded with all these numbers. And as you as you know, you can only really give a few numbers that people will remember, right? If you give go beyond a couple, it's too many. It'll become too many.

[00:24:00]And so in the case of the Brexit campaign, people just flooded with numbers or projections on all sides. And it came down to what they felt, what they wanted to relate to. Did they want to relate to the European Union? Were they Europeans or were they British, English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish?

[00:24:18]And in the end, they obviously felt a stronger loyalty or sentiment with their British lineage or tradition or sovereignty. And that's where it's very tough like you said because the real problem is that many people feel a a a tie to Canada that really doesn't exist. And that's why if you watch legacy media, you just don't understand the problem. They will keep reaffiring reass reassuring you that team Canada is the greatest and we're fighting the evil orange man bad and with and they'll just gloss over all the decline and let's say prosperity, opportunity, adventure that attracted people to Canada in the first place.

[00:25:07]>> Yeah. And all the freedom like you said.

[00:25:09]Um I want to talk a couple of things there because I want to talk about I mean everybody knows the grievances and I don't necessarily want to go into the the the long list. representation, um, you know, the judicial system, all the the obstacles that, you know, Ottawa throws in Alberta's path. Um, but I, one of the things that I'd say is probably one of the number one fears of people in Alberta, namely our baby boom population, are those that are collecting a Canada pension plan.

[00:25:37]>> And you and I have talked about this in the past. Uh, you know, I did a tour around Alberta trying to explain to people what the Canada Pension Plan was, what they were entitled to. Um, in my opinion, and I've said this point blank, it's a Ponzi scheme. Um, and >> yes, it is a Ponzi scheme. Yeah.

[00:25:53]>> And it and it's a payroll tax, but you know, people who are receiving it today will continue to receive it, but you know, Alberta could do it so much better. So, fears seem to paralyze people. I mean that that's I think a big reason why most people take no action in their lives is because they're afraid of losing what little they have despite whatever reward they may have at the other end. So in your opinion from the economics just pure economics perspective of Alberta becoming its own nation what do we have to be afraid of?

[00:26:28]Well, it's like that that saying, you know, the we have to the only fear is fear itself or the only like thing we should need to be afraid of is fear itself. I'm very aware of these concerns just like you, Nadine. Uh, as you know, I have relatives all across Alberta and many of them are concerned about this and it really breaks my heart that people have been reduced to such dependence or subservience that their fears are getting their hand out from the government. And as you say, it's not even a legitimate handout. It's a Ponzi scheme where they're taking money from the younger generation who cannot afford to give it. So, okay, how do we address this? I the the fact is the truth is on Alberta's side that Alberta can offer uh they can have the grandfathered in system, right? people can still receive from Ottawa if they want to stay there and then they can then there can be a much leaner uh more modern or agile system for new generations of Albertans.

[00:27:28]This is a fact. Uh so yeah that we can we can say that there's a Ponzi scheme but we can pay out those who've already been paying into it and we can build a second a a newer system better system than whatever Canada can offer under an independent Alberta. It seems to me though that this reality is not really the the matter at hand. We have the economics, the facts on our side. The problem is really just how to engage or get beyond the radicalization that people are receiving through their university education, their uh legacy media because that is basically a form of mind control in my opinion. It basically shuts down debate. It shuts down thinking if all the people who can give you alternative opinions are from uh the devil and or they are mega you know Americans or whatever it may be and these projoratives are shutting down debate.

[00:28:29]So to me there there there is already a great deal of research you you have worked on this uh the um what's his name the guy who wrote the value of freedom Dennis I'm just his surname is escaping me right now but there people have addressed the the economics the numbers it is really a question of how to win the public let's say uh attention battle because so many people have had their minds closed And that to me is really where unfortunately baby boomers are the hardest to reach because they are stuck the most in legacy media.

[00:29:09]Younger people are much more easier to engage with and it'll be like a meme war, a war of little tidbits of information of little clips that will inform them over and over or you know in little little touches towards understanding the situation. So to me like you said the facts are on our side.

[00:29:28]They're clear. The research has been done. It's just how to actually engage.

[00:29:33]That is the real battle we're facing right now. Because I know that my relatives, for example, they just shut down. They just they have this very uh I don't know just just very negative and and visceral negative reaction. And that is basically programming they've received.

[00:29:55]>> Yeah. sometimes too a prophet's not welcome in his hometown. So it that adds I think some level of understanding when people um are looking for information which is why I find trying to bring a broader um perspective from different voices, different backgrounds >> um to the the conversation to help with that.

[00:30:19]>> Yeah. I mean in my case I never really had an affection for Ottawa or the Maple Leaf, right? because basically all my Canadian family were in Alberta when I grew when I was growing up and visiting and then I moved to Alberta initially looking for work. So I always had an affection for that part of the country and never really thought about the rest of Canada and largely because I don't know that Canada in my lifetime has really had a coherent identity anyway. So that's where yeah older people would feel like there was there was some kind of coherent Canadian identity, but at this point you would have a very hard time defining it. And that's why when Justin Trudeau referred to Canada being a postnational state, I agree with him on that.

[00:31:09]>> Yeah. I don't uh I I think Well, you know, it's funny. I think there's been a lot of regional identity. I grew up on the far east coast, the other ocean. Um, >> yeah.

[00:31:18]>> In Newfoundland in Labrador and people there have always had a strong identity with the land, with the water, with the culture. You know, if you go to Newfoundland, it is a different world all together. Um, and you know, we were the last to join Confederation. So, I think there's still uh very much an identity associated with that. And you're starting to see even an independence movement. you know the Republic of Newfoundland um and Labrador that's kind of coming more and more to the forefront there as people are taking more and more pride in their region. So to your point I think you will see you know more smaller nations I think and and this decentralization and there is such a a a difference between east and west. I mean, people say to me, Nadine, well, you're living in Alberta. But I have lived all across this country.

[00:32:09]>> Um, pretty much, you know, maritimes, Atlantic provinces, the prairies, Alberta, you know, being part of that and the West in BC at different points for varying different times. And I've lived in Ottawa for 10 some years. Um, beautiful place. Too bad about the politicians, but the >> Yeah. But the the truth is, you know, in your opinion, what is the right message?

[00:32:34]What's the message for Albertans that they need to hear?

[00:32:38]>> Well, I Okay, so just I want to go go back because I just want to agree with you that the regional identities are strong. That's why for a long time it has made sense for different parts of Canada to be more autonomous. And if Ottawa if if Canada was structured differently and at a different political class, Canada could be, let's say, a free association of different states or nations with a healthy arrangement. That is just not what exists today. So >> we don't even trade with each other.

[00:33:07]>> You know, it's it's harder to trade amongst the provinces than it is with our southern neighbor.

[00:33:12]>> And yeah, Newfoundland and I guess Prince Edward Island to a similar degree has retained a very distinct culture, right? because it has not been economically so attractive. So fewer people have moved there and it has retained a great deal of the British and Irish heritage that it's almost more British and Irish than the than the British Isles at this point or at least 20 years ago, right, when you were growing up there. So, okay. So, what is the message I would give? I think the the the key message is that Alberta is an independent nation already. It's a de facto nation already. It's really just removing the bureaucracy. And so Alberta has a distinct culture, identity, history, way of life, value system, and it's really just disconnecting that it already has a functioning society that can be incredibly uh better without something on its back. So I just like I said to me that's why I am not so eager to engage in all sorts of speculation about changing Alberta greatly or or huge reforms. I just think continuity of what Alberta already is. I'm quite happy with that. Just extracting an external or imperial uh presence from from the de facto nation.

[00:34:33]So you you don't think that necessarily Alberta needs to change much from the inside because I mean I I you know I think a lot of the bureaucracy a lot of the DEI um even our current you know premier who talks a lot about you know carbon capture and net zero and these types of ideas I think these are are harmful and obviously I would I would hope that in a new Alberta these are the ideas that we would shed and actually put the power back in the hands of the individual the person the people and allow them to live their lives to the fullest capacity.

[00:35:05]>> Well, I I just see that transition as happening in an organic or natural fashion that yes, Albertans overwhelmingly reject things like ESG, DEI or affirmative action of policies or values that are alien to the Albertan people and are promoted from Ottawa or funded from Ottawa. So, I agree with you on those elements.

[00:35:32]I just I just think people I I basically I want to celebrate what Alberta already is and just say all we really need is more autonomy or self-governance or self-determination to build on this wonderful foundation that is already there.

[00:35:52]I mean because if we start I just don't want to overpromise or to make even add more uncertainty to the mix because I already think Alberta is an attractive place already. Canadians go there overwhelmingly over other provinces because they see it's more prosperous and it's just a continuation of that.

[00:36:17]And in many ways, how can I put this? I'm getting a bit of an echo here. In in many ways, I want how can I put this? I'm like I guess I'm getting an echo, so I'm trying to pull back. But how can I put this? A healthy the healthy growth of let's say British refinement or even to some degree the American Revolution did not come from an abrupt change. The west western civilization grew in a very incremental fashion. And I I would like to see Alberta grow in an incremental fashion.

[00:36:54]It's just being held back or has been held back for a generation or two. And that that's my message that basically we don't need a revolution. It's almost like a counterrevolution to resist the the country that's being taken away or or um suffocated at this time. Hm. And so from the standpoint of a new nation, what are some of the things that, you know, we should be avoiding? Some of the things that definitely should be on the to-do list um that would give people I I know change is hard for people to accept. And I think for a lot of people, you know, I I've keep saying, you know, I wrote a book. Why? Because you can't give people a blank white sheet of paper. They don't know what to do with it. They don't even know where to start.

[00:37:39]>> That's true.

[00:37:39]>> That's true.

[00:37:40]>> So you have to start the conversation.

[00:37:42]somewhere. I mean, I think we could do private uh or our health care system could be so much better. Education system could be so much better. I think our banking institutions could be done so much more better. Um you know what what are the fundamentals around a free and sovereign society?

[00:38:00]>> Right? So fundamentally a free society has respect for natural rights, life, liberty, property and these broadly speaking refer to things like free speech, freedom of association.

[00:38:12]And I think so long as that is at the forefront of the campaign, I'm less concerned about the finer details.

[00:38:23]Now there is let's say we want to be smart about how to approach this transition.

[00:38:32]There are other examples in history to refer to. I tell people that in 1900 there were something like 60 countries and now there are about 200. So this we don't have to reinvent the wheel here.

[00:38:44]And there are a couple of instances in history where people voted for and got a considerable reduction in the size of government and it was successful. Uh both Chile and New Zealand was of course I I was just born or was growing up during the time in New Zealand and Chile achieved this around the same am same time. And so I would look to those examples of very clear and across the board changes that did not I mean the whole point is to avoid any kind of carveouts for cronies or special interests who will seek to rebuild the rent seeking or parasetism of Ottawa on the home front. Now that so that's my chief like I said my chief priorities would be one focusing on the underlying values that we want to promote or stand by and two avoiding any kind of carveouts or cronyism that would rebuild the socialist or parasitic entities that have come to harm broadly speaking Canada and Alberta at this time and that's why for example I am concerned people have talked about this that the chief rival or enemy enemy of this unfortunately is government workers because they've been living high on the hog and don't want competition and so I would really try to maintain some kind of right to work policy to avoid any kind of union privileges in the new nation.

[00:40:16]>> Yeah, I don't disagree with that statement. Um you know when the government can grant privileges, they can also take them away. But the problem is is the government grants privileges and then those um individuals who are on the receiving end of that um you know they cast a ballot just like everybody else. And so unfortunately it takes a very brave person to cast a ballot even if it's for the right reasons if your livelihood is dependent upon the system.

[00:40:43]So >> people will do it. People will do it.

[00:40:45]Yeah.

[00:40:46]>> You think you think that was my next portion of people.

[00:40:50]>> Yeah.

[00:40:50]>> There's a portion of people. So, this has been discussed a lot that particularly uh workingclass males who hope to rise in the future will vote against welfare even if they're the ones who would be likely to use it or need it, right?

[00:41:05]Because they have optimism. So long as they think there's a the chance that they can rise up or that they hold the values of hard work, they will vote against it. Even like I said, even if though they're the ones who are most eligible for it.

[00:41:17]Uh I had another point I've forgotten, but no. So I just like like I said to me that is that is one of the biggest barriers.

[00:41:26]Years ago I had a mentor who had run for governor of Massachusetts and he said Ferg the first thing I had to do was win over the teacher unions. So this is not a new problem.

[00:41:37]Yeah. Yeah. So let me think. Gosh, Nadine, I mean that it it really is a challenge because in my case, for example, I have a very strong streak of just taking care of myself and not wanting any kind of government handouts for anything. It's just not in my makeup. And I find it sometimes I find it sad that we would even have to rebuild some kind of government pension plan. I remember years ago I was at a conference in Panama, Panama City, Panama. And there was one of the founders of the Fraser Institute. I'm not sure if he's still alive, but and he was discussing how he didn't really have a problem with the Canada Pension Plan because so long as it's well managed, it's okay. And I was just thinking, what if I don't want to pay to your stupid government pension plan, right? I want to just invest the money as I see fit and not have 13% or whatever it is of my income taken. And so I do find that difficult that I really am concerned about us resurrecting the problems because people are afraid to grow up and they want government to take care of them in all accounts. And I just think that's like it's it's a peasant mentality. I'll do my best to encourage people to grow beyond that. But I realize we have to we can't do everything in a day, right?

[00:42:49]Rome was not built in a day. And as much as I would like us to be freer than people want to be, you have to meet people where they're at. And right now, people unfortunately seem to expect a government pension plan.

[00:43:01]>> Unfortunately, on that note, what people don't talk about is the unfunded liabilities that are associated with all these social programs that our youth, our children, our grandchildren are going to be the ones that are faced having to pay for them. You know, I I remind people kindly about the Canada Pension Plan. It started at 1.8% 8%. You know, just a small little amount. And then, you know, also people were not expected to live past 67, which is the reason why the age was uh set at 65. It was going to be funded for a couple of years.

[00:43:33]>> And now, you know, we're having to fund it for 20ome years because the average age is 86 >> um or I think it's 82 actually. Um, and and yeah, you know what people forget is that exact same amount dollar for dollar, if you had invested it in your own account, you would actually have control of it. You could take it, you could pay for a down payment on a house, you can use it when you needed it. If you got sick, you know, your own employment, insurance, all of these things that you could do with it because you have flexibility. This is a program that is a a payroll tax that you pay into that, you know, if you're a single person. I spoke to a a beautiful woman today, 62 years old. If she dies tomorrow, she hasn't claimed her CPP.

[00:44:14]She has no dependence and no spouse.

[00:44:16]Guess what? She gets a $2,500 death benefit to put her in the ground. Not even enough to bury her. And yet, she's contributed and paid into this every day of her life, working life.

[00:44:27]>> And >> well, to me, this kind of bureaucracy and infantile program is really anti-albertan.

[00:44:36]But we have been so programmed to expect I don't know some kind of cocoon around our lives. It's really to me it is a bit embarrassing. But and and it also it cuts down on adventure because I want to explore the world. I want to you know build new organizations. I don't want to be stuck under all these stupid programs like employment insurance or or yeah the these pension schemes. They are just a huge drag on any kind of innovation of adventure of development of creation.

[00:45:11]And that's to me this kind of ch I I think of it as childish dependence on government to fix your life or to provide for you. It shows an incredible lack of personal responsibility and willingness to engage in actual charity with your neighbor if people really are in need. the I think what people forget is that these programs are really just deliberate strategies to create a dependent voting block.

[00:45:41]I maybe I've mentioned this to you before, Nadine, but years ago I was back in New Zealand when uh the the new program was coming into fruition, a subsidized subsidized child care plan, right? And this was a a a flagrant strategy to just create a new class of voters who would support the Labor Party, which is the like the Liberal Party of New Zealand, and they would they would become permanent supporters of this program, and anyone who challenged it would be rebuked as anti-mother or something like that. And so, it's a bait and switch uh when when you are taxed and then given a few crumbs that somehow you should be grateful for the crumbs. It's really I I just this is we're in a war of ideas showing people the truth about how you have a bunch of lying parasites who are making themselves look good with your own money. Well, just to give you an example of some of that, um, you know, instead of improving the economy and building a society where people want to, you know, uh, live and enjoy and raise their families, the Liberal government at one of the most recent, um, conventions said that, you know, if if the our young youth, our talent, if they decide to leave the country, we're just going to tax them $500,000 to do so. And I'm like, this whole concept for me really just >> sort of hit home because I'm like, how about we just give them lots of reasons to stay? You know, it's such a simple solution. How about we produce an environment that is so inviting, so free, so productive, um such a happy place to live where you can truly, you know, explore who you are and do everything that you want to do. You know, that the American dream to a certain extent. Um instead of that, the the Liberal government's option was, well, we'll just punish them for leaving, >> you know. Um and that's punishing somebody who's in search of making themselves better, doing bigger things, and and you know that that I just went that's the mentality of our government today.

[00:47:48]>> Yeah, that was a proposal at the Liberal Party convention, but notably it got a huge round of applause, right? It was not it was not unpopular. Now I suspect unfortunately a lot of people in the Conservative Party of Canada would support a similar policy. So they have a similar let's say socialist or central planning proclivity and they would call it bonding if you do your university here. What people don't realize is that a government strong enough or powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take everything away from you.

[00:48:25]Right. So I I'm not surprised by that.

[00:48:28]Governments hate competition.

[00:48:31]That's why Alberta will be so incredibly powerful as a competitive force against Ottawa to show them up. And it's it's a bit like they don't want you to know that you would get basically four times the return if you were to go with private investing versus investing through the CPP, right? because they give about a real return of 2% which is pathetic and still they've got a huge unfunded liability. It's it's it's ridiculous. So I I hear you. I think that the the problem is people don't seem to realize that making all these egalitarian promises eventually it's like a um what is it called? The when you when you lift your car up it's the the ratchet. It's like a ratchet that each step invites another step. Until now, my big concern is that we live in this incredibly controlled intellectual environment in Canada and I wanted to get on to this today to discuss it. Nadine, there was just a new report uh funded backed by five think tanks in Canada uh and I'm sure they got a ton of government funding for this. the there's a new report out explaining or seeking to spook people about US and Russian influence on the Alberta independence process and they're talking about cognitive sovereignty. The level or lack of introspection is off the charts. They are the ones who are interfering with the cognitive sovereignty of Albertans by and they they complain about oh there was $10 million by Russia spent on a media project I'm going and they don't even know if all that media project went to Canada or Alberta. So $10 million some of which might have gone to Alberta in terms of just media coverage versus a $2 billion media landscape in Alberta.

[00:50:21]It's ridiculous. It's laughable. And yet we're supposed to believe that these people care about your free thinking or independence. And the irony of course is that one of the chief motives or chief values of Alberta would be free speech as opposed to government media. So I mean that would be just that alone. Just just getting CBC or government media off your back would be a huge win in the the new nation. Well, one of the interesting things that I've read most recently was uh the federal government's uh idea of centralizing and nationalizing AI. So, it is this idea that we want to filter what you see, that you cannot search of your own free accord. Um, and it really boils down to this complete and utter lack of trust in the public. And it is about control because if you know and have the means to for yourself discover what is truly going on um then of course you may not necessarily go along with the government narrative. But that that that I mean that's how severe things have gotten now where they're actually literally talking about controlling AI.

[00:51:28]Um if you want to talk about a surveillance state like we're already living in North Korea Korea in Canada as far as the same kind of rules and regulations. um you know, Canadian content and online harms and all these other acts that you know, you can't say this, you can't say that. You're already being filtered as to what you can and can't see from different sources. And now they want to control AI. So, you want to talk about a lack of innovation and a lack of creativity. Um, and they're pushing people out. They're not, you know, and and when you do that, the best leave and then what are you left with?

[00:52:03]Well, the the the truth is that Canada will become in terms of human capital a hollowedout country and it's happening before our eyes. I recently saw a stat that for every one American moving to Canada right now, there are 59 Canadians moving to thei to the United States. So, the hollowing out of Canada's brightest or most ambitious is happening at a rapid clip. And just in my own life, because I've straddled the border over the years and been in both in Canada and the United States, it is just heartbreaking to me to see the lower compensation, the higher tax burden, the the the higher expectations in terms of qualifications that really are a waste of time on the Canadian side.

[00:52:52]And it just makes perfect sense for people to to continue on to the United States unfortunately. And I've spoken with admissions uh office admissions um staff at the University of Calgary about the business and they'll tell you that the majority of their PhD graduates go to the United States because they they just get better prospects there. And I'm going well why wouldn't they? So I think yeah so that it is absolutely happening and I just would like again like you I don't want to be punishing people for pursuing ambition their ambitions. I want to offer a better deal. It's I mean obviously we have the same problem in the United States that we have people who are paying higher taxes and want to go and live in Singapore or somewhere like that and I say good for them right I'm quite happy for them to do that but instead of trying to be more competitive politicians will just call them names call them traders or whatever what have you >> and and the hard part I think too right now we have a PM a prime minister who unlike Justin Trudeau who I think everybody agreed you know barely had two brain cells to rub together I mean every time he opened his mouth and went off script everybody went Okay, this this man just you know is not very intellectual, not incredibly smart. But that is quite different with Prime Minister Carney. Carney even the the choice of language and words that he uses. So now Canada is going to have a sovereign wealth fund. There is no sovereign wealth fund coming anywhere to Canada anytime soon. You and I both know that. Um you know, we're borrowing money right now, giving it away at rates that are just unforeseen.

[00:54:30]And yet, but but what he does is he paints a picture with pretty words and languages, you know, oh, it's a sovereign wealth fund. People immediately think, oh, we're going to be the next Norway, you know, because that's where people go. The biggest sovereign wealth fund in the world is Norway. And we, you know, Canadians talk about it all the time. Alberta could be Norway. There is no doubt in my mind that Alberta could be Norway, but even we would have to wrangle in a lot of the spending and, you know, get the boots off the neck of the productive part of our society. And that means unleashing people's potential, unleashing their talents, their skills, um, developing our natural resources, which right now we're not even allowed to even have the discussion, let alone do.

[00:55:14]>> Yeah. So the look the the referendum is one step towards freedom for Albertans but there's no such thing as just permanently secured liberty. There will always be people who want to like I said be rent seekers or parasites whatever you want to call them. There are people who have a busy body mentality people who want the welfare state who are afraid of freedom. And so it's an ongoing battle, you know, and so what I propose to people is that in their own personal lives, they be proactive and build basically a parallel economy, a parallel education systems, alternative medical providers, whatever they can do to unplug and uh bu boost their own vibrance or um opportunity. And many people are doing that, which is great.

[00:56:07]So I hear you and and that's the thing that if we if we're going to let's say round off the the economic opportunity Alberta is a very unique let's say confluence or coincidence of um attributes. So we have yes we have the toughest lineage around the the hardiest people of yes the British al is in northwestern Europe who can went to this very difficult place to get to and to to build a farm or a a place for a home for themselves. And then we have tremendous yes natural resources. We're also the beneficiaries of yes some of the British common law and maybe more respect for for property inherent in our culture. And so we we have these attributes that can make it can flip the script immediately such that Alberta would be more attractive, more competitive than the United States and therefore it would it would suddenly make Alberta the magnet from both Canada and the United States and not the other way around.

[00:57:10]>> What do you deem um in your opinion chance of success of a successful referendum?

[00:57:17]>> Well, I've been very optimistic about it. I got to be honest with you, Nadine.

[00:57:21]latest numbers. I don't I don't know what to what to think of these polling numbers. The problem is because they're not so positive because how do you even do a poll in this digital or cell phone environment?

[00:57:33]The so I think it absolutely can happen.

[00:57:37]I I don't want to say it's assured. I think it requires a great deal of groundwork because we have that 20% or so of people who need to need to receive an optimistic vision and the the right basically just need to be educated on the issues because in my opinion in terms of the actual moral high ground and economic arguments Alberta can crush the federalists or the Ottawa loyalists.

[00:58:07]It is just a case of getting that message to the people in a compelling fashion. So I think with the right yes bottom up campaign with the right motivation I think the campaign can win but it's still in a 50/50 uh status right now.

[00:58:23]>> Yeah. And for a lot of people I think they're almost afraid to take the chance. So um I had a friend tell me a story that he handed a friend of his my book and he read it. She took the book and then a week later when they got together to have their coffee, cuz this is how I've promoted my book. Give it to a friend. Tell them, "You got a week, read it, we'll get together, have a coffee, tell me what you disagree with."

[00:58:45]She handed it back to him. She says, "I can't do it. I can't read it." And he's like, "What do you mean you can't read it?" She says, "I I don't want to know."

[00:58:52]Um because I think down deep down she knew that this was the better option, the better opportunity, but there's this fear that just keeps people and and holds them back from doing something. So what >> you know, where could people find you, Fergus? Um you know, if they wanted to reach out more information uh obviously, you know, an opportunity here to encourage people to, you know, read your books that you've written.

[00:59:19]>> Yeah. Well, I've got a third one coming out soon, I hope. But the I mean, I'm working on a third, but I really love people to engage with my Twitter or X, Ferg Hodgegson, and also on Substack. I have an economic or financial freedom publication newsletter. It's just econas.substack.com.

[00:59:41]And so, if you want to subscribe there, uh, I'm also producing a lot of content through the Impunity Observer. So really uh go to X. I've got a link tree there and people can find all sorts of different content and if they like my work and just like they like your work, you know, contribute. We're really putting ourselves out there. We're sticking our necks out to support this even though it's a great, let's say, personal expense. the they can subscribe to these publications, buy the books, support our events, show that you contribute because not all of us have the time or or bandwidth to be involved on a let's say professional or more a full-time basis. But of those who are putting themselves out there, please show your support. It's really appreciated.

[01:00:23]>> Yeah. And support is is I think under underrated um in this people think, oh, it's great that you're doing it, but um it does take dollars and cents obviously to dedicate this amount of time to it.

[01:00:34]Well, thank you so much. Any final words, last words for Albertans?

[01:00:38]Obviously, what a hope and optimism.

[01:00:42]>> Nadine, I'm excited about this because yes, it's a challenge. It's not assured, but it can happen. And I just really appreciate the people like you, the others in the movement who I think have great values, great conviction. I they're they're like family to me and I I encourage people to be a part of that great community on a noble mission. So, thanks for having me on, Nadine. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to your audience.

[01:01:07]>> Oh, pleasure is mine, Fergus. Well, we won't wait so long the next time to do it again.

[01:01:14]Well, everybody, if you like this interview, you like the video, you like the content, please do like it, uh, hit the button, get that notification for future, uh, videos, please do share, repost this, add your comments. Um, we love comments. So, if you are willing to engage with us, we usually will give you a like back. We will, you know, answer whatever questions we can, whether it be in a future episode or in person. So, feel free to reach out and contact me as well. Um, and have a wonderful night.

[01:01:45]God bless you all.