Political leaders must maintain public trust and demonstrate genuine connection with citizens to remain effective; when leaders become disconnected from public concerns and prioritize power over national interest, they risk losing both public support and parliamentary backing, ultimately leading to political instability and potential resignation.
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‘Open Your Bloody Eyes!’ | Talk Breakfast Biggest Moments Of The WeekAdded:
I mean, it's extraordinary from from a commentary point of view. You've got the least most popular prime minister in the history of history. Um, uh, who who responds to the worst drubbing in a local election by bringing in a dinosaur who sold all our gold for a tenth of its value in 2015 and got booted out. and a woman who seems to be around since the beginning of time, Harriet Harpoon. But he he comes out and he says at the weekend, which I'm sure is, you know, communications, I'm going to be here for 10 years. What's the reality? What's happening right now? Can you see this man going sooner rather than later? Go.
>> Uh reality for me, I think he's a dead man walking and it's just a case of, you know, how much longer he can stagger on.
And he ain't no Bruce Willis, is he? You can't see him stripped down to his vest, you know, battered, bruised, but still carrying on with a sort of uh submachine gun under his arms, taking out all the baddies. It's not what he's made of.
And, you know, if we were to expect something spectacular from the speech uh today, we would have expected something a bit more creative, a bit more appealing than to bring back the most hapless prime minister in Labor history, Gordon Brown. Well, until this one, of course, >> these problems, you actually couldn't make it up.
>> And until this one, of course, maybe that's what they've got in common.
>> Yeah. And judge a man by his friends, you know, if if if if anyone else was trying to save his premiership, he would bring back somebody glamour, somebody with an edge.
Remember when Rishi Sunnak brought back David Cameron? He had a lot of opponents, but he did sort of stride the world stage. He had a presence. He turned up the House of Lords and people were immediately saying, "Wow, we'd forgotten how good he was at this."
Nobody said that about Gordon Brown.
They just thought, "Why does this guy want us to make a link between him and the last guy to lose uh uh power for the Labour Party in a spectacular way?"
>> I I I couldn't agree more. Right now, you see this man who seems to be oblivious to the reality that everybody else is talking about. Presumably he's a man who doesn't say anything unless it's, you know, laid out and the focus groups approved it, which is in itself astonishing. Uh many people would call him deluded. Few quick questions for you. Um he hasn't I mean I don't know if you saw Philips being pulled to shreds.
What's the change he's going to talk about? We're an optimistic party and will put Britain at the heart of Europe.
That's just going to alienate even more people. He just doesn't seem competent.
Just doesn't. Do you know what I think the problem is? I think he still thinks he's in opposition. He may even think that he or some of the people around him think they're in student politics where, you know, you just say something and that's it. These guys are in power or at least they're meant to be. They have their hands on the levers that Britain still has. Whether that's in defense, whether that's in tax and spend, they can do stuff. So, a speech that just, you know, recast something yet again in a slightly different light delivered by a man who sounds like a robot. It's not exactly going to tickle my tummy. And, you know, I'm I've never been a a staunch supporter of the Labor Party, but I find it really hard to think that those people who are looking at the massacre last week of decent Labor people across the UK, particularly in my native Wales, that they think this speech by, you know, the robotic star is going to turn it round.
>> Do you think you'll survive the week, Goto?
I don't know these things as I know painfully from what happened to Boris Johnson when when somebody goes over the top. You know, everybody else either sort of pretends that they're appalled that uh they've done so or they all pile in. And I think on this occasion there's a very strong possibility they all pile in and then things move extremely fast.
>> You said you were there for the Boris debacle. Um, what's that like being in the epicenter of something as resignations start to double and treble and four-fold and you you realize the white writing's on the wall? Did he realize the writing was on the wall very quickly or was he in denial as well?
>> No, he did. You know, it all happened pretty quickly. It was painful because he just had a couple of great weeks on the world stage. He had survived a vote of confidence a few weeks beforehand.
one eccentric little incident when you look back at it now to do with, you know, Chris Pincher, you know, allegedly groping somebody. Boris wasn't even in town when this incident happened, but it was used as a trigger. I think this is a different situation. The opposition was scared of Boris. The opposition wanted him taken out because they knew if he survived the summer, he'd come back fighting. and he had proved time and time and time again that he could actually, you know, raise his party and raise himself. Nobody thinks that about Karma. They know that every time he actually resets his government, and it's happened half a dozen times already in two years, he seems to make it worse. He still has a vacancy, by the way, for a directed communications. I mean, this guy is, you know, on the deck of a ship without a captain.
>> Why aren't you applying?
>> Can you see me working for this? You know, you can't polish a proverbial, can you? Um, I don't think you can even roll roll key armor and glitter.
>> Oh, mate, that's brilliant. Um, a lot of people can't answer this. I don't. If you can't, you can't. If he goes, who's the next prime minister of the United Kingdom? Gout.
>> Well, that's the only thing that's kept him there this long, I think, is the fear that when they roll the dice, they might get somebody even worse. They get their own, as they say, Labour's Liz Trust. And that pretty much is in the shape of Angela. Um there's a lot of sensible people, the people who actually do want to do something with power. They dream of getting somebody like West Streeting. Um but that seems to be, you know, a long shot for some of them.
We'll see. Um I think this is one of those cometh uh the hour cometh a man.
And uh I think West Streeting, Angela Raina, you know, anyone else out there, now is the moment. there won't be a better reason or a a more genuine reason for actually putting uh a K armor out of his misery, putting the UK out of his misery, and putting the Labour party out of its misery.
>> But who do you think will be the next prime minister then? Go on. Neck on the line time. James Price says Ed Milliband who's gone very quiet. I can't have him.
Blime me O'Reilly.
>> Well, you know, sort of we we started this conversation talking about just when you didn't think it could get worse. It it could. It obviously could.
What does often happen in situations like this is that the person who ends up holding the baby is not anyone you expected. We got John Major that way and actually we're slightly underwhelmed, but he he went on to win a spectacular victory for the Conservative party and then you know spectacular loss. He's aged well. He's a proper statesman uh these days. You may end up with somebody that we haven't really thought of. But I think the odds are that you will have uh West Streeting as a Blairite on the right of the party versus somebody like Angela Raina and you know battle for the battle for the soul and all that.
>> Overall at the end of the day would love a quick update from you. Um a brutal drubbing for Labor by anybody's standards losing over 1400 counselors and the control of 38 councils reform the big winners 1454 councilors 14 councils the Green Party historic breakthroughs. Yeah. apparently 400 councilors and control of five councils and the tourists although they called it progress losing 560 seats. What was your take of all John?
>> Well, my take number one is that this is undoubtedly Labour's worst set of local election results. Um uh and and also devolved election results. Worst resort ever in Scotland, worst result ever in Wales, certainly worst result ever outside of London. In London, it's perhaps it's still not entirely clear yet. don't have all the voting data, but certainly Labor are at around their worst uh previous results in London. And given that London's become much more of a a Labor city uh over the last 20 years, that's also uh pretty remarkable.
Uh in the case of reform, undoubtedly confirmation of the substantial challenge they pose uh to uh the conventional polit political system, particularly to the conservatives. They have support very very heavily concentrated in areas that voted for Brexit and I think it's also pretty clear in line with the opinion polls however that their support was somewhat lower than it was running at in the local elections last year. The case of the Conservatives yeah frankly I struggle to see much signs of progress.
If you there are few only a few places where you can do a detailed comparison with last year but where you can conservative support seems to be down somewhat and crucially crucially these local elections confirm that the conservative party now is no more popular in Brexit Britain than it is uh in pro-EU Britain uh for reform have basically now taken the whole of the coalition that Boris Johnson uh assembled in 2019 to say that we should get Brexit done. Um the Liberal Democrats, they're frankly flatlining.
Although they gained seats, they lost votes as compared with 2022 and indeed most other previous local elections. And the Greens made a substantial advance.
It's not as substantial as that of reform, but there are now certainly number plenty of places where the battle is between the reform and the Greens.
And of course, the Greens of course did particularly well in parts of London.
>> Um I'd completely agree with everything you've said. Looking forward in terms of the next few years, if this was replicated, I read over the weekend, reform would have 286 seats, but will be shy of an overall majority. And I I just said to the to Helen Weightley, the shadow secretary of state for work and pensions, that the way the political map is looking at this moment, it looks like that would be the case. And then all sorts of connotations about who would sit with who, reform and and and tries hate each other. They say they won't do a deal. Labor doesn't want to do a deal with the Greens. The Greens hate Labor.
The Greens hate everybody, I think. But but it is for the first time in our history not only very different but all to pay for, isn't it?
>> Yes. Well, it's certainly true that these local elections confirm what the opinion polls have been telling us for two years. Um that our politics is now more fragmented than ever has been. It's true in England. It's also true in Scotland um as well and to some degree the same could be said of Wales. It's also true that com it's not just the Labour Party is in deep trouble. It is also the Conservatives. Never have we seen our two traditional governing parties together suffering so much trouble at the same point in time. So you know that question that's been hanging over us which is uh where is our two party system heading? Is it having its dying days? Well, that question is even more pressing now. Now at this point, however, what one has to say Jeremy is that it's three years to go to the next election. and there's an awful lot of water to flow under a lot of bridges. But that certainly the prospect at the moment one has to say is that the odds that the next parliament is going to be a hung parliament and a fragmented parliament and a parliament where you know we've got Greens at one end of the spectrum reform at the other both with significant presences. Uh that prospect at least is a clear possibility uh even if it's far far from being a certainty.
>> Completely agree with the results like this. We haven't got long, sir. John, should um karma resign in your opinion?
>> Well, I mean that's up to the Labour party to decide. I guess I think what I would say is I will remind people of what happened in 2006 when Labour did did very badly in London, poorly in local elections. Tony Blair announced that he was going to stand down 12 months later. Uh K Star might discover that that might be his best way of prolonging his period in office.
>> You must be feeling very miserable today. Your prime minister is going to have to go, isn't he? I don't believe you will. This is an unpopular and unfashionable view. But I think he'll survive not only the day but probably the next few months or even years. And you yourself said why? It's because in the British constitution uh and in our parliamentary democracy, it's parliament that is sovereign. Not opinion polls, not who you voted for for your county counselor, certainly not social media, but who parliament chooses. And right now he has got the majority of the Labor MPs still on side.
So few have come out in the last couple of days, I'm surprised. Um, and he's got the bulk of the PLP with him. And that's how we choose our prime ministers. Not we don't tear them down when they do badly in local elections. Otherwise, we would have got rid of Thatcher in 1980 and we would have got rid of Blair in 1999. But we didn't because the parliament but the prime minister.
>> You would have to accept he is the least popular prime minister in the forget me.
I'm talking about amongst your voting base. the most unpopular prime minister that there has ever been. He came distinctly with no plan and won an election because of how despised the tries were. He's been found out. Labour Party members don't like this. 17 Uturns. He's lied to the faces of pensioners and farmers and was women.
But but that aside, you'll say to me, as they all do, he was right on the Iran war. Yeah, he was. Not on the basis, but he was. And that's about the only thing I can come up with. But I want to ask you something else. DNA Paul, just the person. I know people go, "He's a robot." I don't see I don't feel I don't I don't I wouldn't mind if he got angry, if he got hacked off, if he cried, if he if he laughed. There's nothing about this man that screams whatever our political differences that I think he either has the nouse or the desire or the balls or whatever the word is to just I mean for example you know the Andy Burnham things you know what I'd do if I was K star I'd let the bugger stand in Manchester because I know he hasn't got a chance of winning a seat in Manchester I put him right in his place but he doesn't tries to be all things to all people and they're going to get him as a result of that you've got to see that. Well, of course, Starmer is a human being and he does cry and laugh and have feelings and all the rest of it, but you know, when he comes across in public, it's a stable, sensible leader and after all the game show we've had for the last few years.
And >> but you can't keep Paul, you can't keep talking about the Tory party. They're done. The game show, the humiliation, the embarrassment is right on Karma.
Come on. It's not about Tories anymore.
It's not >> Jeremy. Whatever the voters were telling us on Thursday, it is not go into an interign war with ourselves. Look inwards, have a new leader, get a sort of game show going. Great for you guys, but not great for the bond markets and for the country.
>> Do you think that the country All right, let me put it like this. No, no, no.
When it's not about us guys, that's a ridiculous comment. Do you think for the country, for the working men and women of this country and the bond markets and our international standing, do you think that Karma is the best person for the job?
>> Absolutely I do. And I think the alternative of a plunge into chaos is the last thing we need right now with all the uncertainty in the world that you've just alluded to there. The idea that the Labor Party turns in on itself the next few months and has a sort of a war. Yeah. with all the media looking on and the public just scratching their heads saying, "What the hell are you doing?" That's pretty much the last thing we should do as a result of this defeat on >> Do you think he's a competent good prime minister then?
>> Well, I do. Absolutely. I think he is a stable hand after we've had months and years of chaos.
>> How can you call him a stable hand, Paul? I don't want to disagree with you too much, but how can you call a man, just one example, he lied to the faces of waspy women. He told them they get their money. He went to the National Farmers Union and lied. He lied to the old people in terms of their heating allowance. How is that a successful prime minister? Explain to me because I don't get that.
>> Well, the the government will be judged on its ability to get growth in the economy. So, the speech today is going to be about a turn to Europe, for example, and more trade for Europe. He secured a trade deal with the US and with India. He's respected on the world stage for rearming Europe and getting us back into a place where we can defend ourselves. And he has a massive majority in the House of Commons, which is why he hasn't got a massive majority. He couldn't even get five billion pounds of welfare cuts through. He is a prisoner held prisoner by his own backbenches.
>> Well, answer me this then. Why so why have so few of them come out and demanded his head?
>> You're an ex special advisor and you'd know far more than me that every single politician plays their cards to suit themselves. And I suspect I could be wrong. Listen, we haven't got much time, but I think a lot of them will play their cards. Extraordinary. All sorts of people on today, all saying exactly the same thing, which is this man is is deluded. We've got a speech in a little over an hour that'll be on in Julia's show of of a prime minister who's just suffered the worst rubbing in the history of any prime minister at the local election polls. The vultures are circling on the left and the right. The country has him as the most unpopular prime minister ever. And his response over the weekend, as Dan Hodgeges quit rightly said, Isabelle, was to say, I I've listened. I'm ready for a reset.
Hello, Gordon Brown. Hello, Harriet Harpoon or whatever her name is, and um I'm staying for 10 years and um I'm going to tell everybody on Monday that Labour is an optimistic party and don't worry, we're going to rejoin the EU in some form or other. The man's mad, Isabelle, >> I actually agree with Dan Hodges on much of his analysis. And one thing in particular that I've said before is that Starmmer's responses to the national mood get it so consistently wrong and so consistently make his position worse that it has come to the point and for me it came to this point a long time ago that you've got to wonder whether there are people inside Downing Street in his inner circle who are literally deliberately trying to sabotage him. But can I jump in and say to you, and I should have said it to Dan, if even if I agreed with both of you on that point, and you probably would be right, anybody with any political nouse at all would know that those words were wrong. You could read the country yourself if you read a newspaper, opened your bloody eyes, couldn't you?
>> I agree. I agree. But he's never had that judgment. I said um before he before he became prime minister when I just remember I'll never forget watching him when News UK was hosting him for some big um debate political debate in the runup to the general election and I remember looking at him and thinking this guy is going to be the most despised prime minister in my in my lifetime and sure enough that is what's happened. There is something about him that is incredibly grating and and Dan Hodgers was saying just now um it sounds as if he was out campaigning a lot and he was knocking on doors and he was sort of saying I can't understand why Karma is so despised. Well, I don't find that difficult to understand at all because he seems to be completely disconnected from not even ordinary people really from everybody >> just from reality. And and and my point is this, whether or not I mean, you wouldn't have been around this morning, but Steve Baker made the most amazing analogy. He said that the thing is, Jez, when you become an MP, you you you sort of get high on that the first smell of weed, and then when you become a minister, you you quite like cocaine. But when you become prime minister, you're just addicted to heroin or crack or whatever, and you don't want to let go. I don't know whether he's obsessed with his job or I I just I've always put it a bit like you. I don't see anything in his DNA, in his reaction, in his body language. There's nothing. I want him to shout, scream, cry, I don't know. I want some He's just a boring man. And and if you if you do what he did, which is to spend an awful lot of time carping from the sidelines, and of course, I totally understand that there will be people who will say, you know, the lab that the Conservative Party were disgraceed. They were an absolute shambles in the end, but it's almost like you get on by default because this man it there's nothing there. It's like a hollow sort of and and and presumably um with that comes delusion. I don't know. Do you think he'll go this week, today, tomorrow? What's your thoughts?
>> It does it does sound very much like it's going to be impossible for him to hold on. There's so many parts moving now, aren't there? And I just when I saw those results, the bottom line is Labour MPs know that they cannot go into the next election with this guy. They just can't. They're all going to lose their seats. So it then the question is if not now, then when? Yeah, this is the best opportunity for them to strike. And just one more thing that I should add, Jeremy, never underestimate how many MPs of all parties want to be prime minister. It is a vanishingly rare thing for a politician to get in and just be happy being a backbencher. They pretty much all think they could do it. And now is a moment of maximum opportunity for those Labor figures that are circling, the vultures that are circling with the exception of Andy Bernham who's basically got himself into a corner here, hasn't he? Because he can't he can't get back in.
>> Well, it was quite interesting laying it out about how streeting doesn't want it to go to a vote. Of course, he'd like to be anointed, which is why he's told the prime minister he'll only stand if the other one goes nicely. You've got Raina rallying the left. Bernham's not in parliament. they would be terrified of a Blairite taking over and streeting wouldn't want to go up against somebody from the left. Darren Hodges, which I'd love to take on. He says that as a result of that standoff, somebody could come from nowhere.
Well, what he what I picked up on what he said was he was suggesting that there could be some kind of temporary agreement with a caretaker prime minister. I think that would be a catastrophe for the Labor Party. I mean, it would suit reform very well indeed >> and the country. If you were just to put someone in there without with a with a kind of coronation but saying, "Well, it's only a temporary crown." What do you think voters are going to do?
There's going to be an absolute clamor.
>> I've been really I didn't say I didn't say it to Dan. I can say it to you though, mate. I I and I've said this to reform. I've said it to I don't believe you can change party and not have an election. I don't believe you can certainly be prime minister without a mandate from the people. And I'm not changing that view. That is where I stand on that. I think it is fundamentally and morally wrong. They'll say to me, "No, no, Jez. No, no, no.
Labour won." No, no, no, no. Kia Starmer wrote a manifesto and they lied about it. He was the figurehead. He won the election. People will ring me up now and say, "You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong." I don't think you can govern, right? If the people haven't made a decision about you, fact. Can't have it.
>> But I think they all know that if there is a if there is a coronation, and either way, we the voters don't get to choose in this. not unless we're members of the Labour Party and trade unions and so on, but if there is a coronation, then there will be massive instability in the markets because they will want the markets will wonder how long have we got to price in this character, whoever this character is, you know, is this is this for six months? Is there going to be another contest later on? So, I think that would be a disaster for the country. I think it would be potentially very good for parties that want an election sooner rather than later. And just to pick up on all this sort of narrative amongst the commentary about oh reform didn't do quite as well as expected you know if this were translated into a general election. Um you you've cited some figures this morning 200 and whatever you said 80 something MPs. Um, who knows how reform will do when an election finally comes, but it is it is a nonsense to transpose the results of local elections onto a national result for the very reasons that you just said just now that when people are voting in a general election, they are voting for a prime minister.
They're not voting for who's going to fix the potholes. And on this particular set of results, I mean a few people might have been voting on immigration, which is the number one uh rallying kind of appeal of of reform, but a lot of people will have been voting on local causes. Are >> you amazed that this is happening? Do you think it's happening or do you think he'll weedle his way out of this?
>> No, I think it's over. I think Shabbana Brutus Mahmud last night stuck the dagger uh into Kama. when your home secretary briefs out through the unions that she wants you gone from number 10, you're pretty much done. Um, followed by uh I bet Cooper, the foreign secretary.
You know, the the the two big holders of the officers of state uh coming out and saying his time is up. I just think um if he puts if if you believe him uh he cares about country ahead of party uh and that he thinks that he's on the right track that we've just all got it wrong then he should go to a general election. I >> I mean I completely agree. I I have to say though I heard somebody just said to me we've got a new name for him. Twoyear Kia brilliant. I I've heard people this morning say not on this station, but you know, he's a decent man. He's done his best. And I will say this until I'm finishing at 10:00 and I read a couple of texts. Then try telling that to the pensioners, the farmers, some of whom have committed suicide, their livelihoods taken. Try telling that to the waspy women who depended on that money and were lied to. Try telling that to the grooming gangs victims. One of the biggest injustices this country has ever seen to not do that. and and Herma, he him and his mate Hurmer, what they've done to our armed forces who served in Northern Ireland amongst all of those atrocities and could end up in jail whilst the IRA have immunity. I've got no sympathy for this man at all. I think what goes around comes around. And the view from the cheap seeds, he was very judgmental. You were right in the center of all of that. There's criticism for the past and there's criticism now. But he has got this coming and he has brought this absolutely upon himself. If I ask you this then Adem, did you any part of you with your political history think that it could fall apart? I mean 21 months after you stride into Downing Street with the biggest postwar majority is un it's unheard of, isn't it?
>> It is extraordinary. Um they had 14 years >> to think about what to do with power as a party. He had four years as leader of the opposition. You'd think he'd walk into number 10 with three or four priorities to get the country growing, to bring down the cost of living, to deal with the madness of net zero that's harming that that um message you read out of the lady whose mom was literally suffering not being able to switch on her heating. Um it is heartbreaking and all of that um wasted in 24 months, less than 24 months. I think it is Nadim, I think it's 21 months for goodness. It was unheard of. But the man, you're right. It it's, you know, you'll know I'm straight with you. They lost the election because of the sheer incompetence at the end of the Tory party killing itself. They talked about cronyism, jobs for the boys doing it correctly. It was 2 days before the Lord Alley thing was. It was 93 days before the woman who was brought into to to over overlook the first 100 days, Sue Gray was gone. And it has been debacle after debacle. I I I don't think Take your point. I don't think they had a plan. I think they got elected on the back of completely knowing that the British people had stopped listening to the tourists and I think he's been found. I have I I'm too I'm too invested in I've spoken to too many veterans who are living in care homes terrified they're going to be prosecuted. I've spoken to too many old people across this country who have had that money taken away. Have absolutely no sympathy for this man whatsoever.
I you know I when I was a backbencher took on um the infected blood scandal you know he promised even on that that he would deliver against it and he didn't >> um he is the most incompetent leader this country's ever had. We got rid of Liz Truss when the interest rate on British 10-year bonds hit 4.6 4.7%. It was at 5.1% what four or five days ago and it will rise again today. Um it is an absolute disaster. I think um it would be uh chaotic and irresponsible if Labour now have to wait for Andy Burnham to get back into parliament.
>> And by the way, can we have a discussion about that? The self-styled messiah of Manchester. I I worked there for 15 years. I've not heard I unless I'm missing the point, Adam. I haven't met anybody who thinks he's the messiah of Manchester. I think that's Oh, I've got some breaking news. You can respond to this now. This is really interesting.
Saki Starma's major lap dog is Darren Jones, who's secretary of state for the prime minister. This breaking news. The prime minister's chief secretary has refused to say say whether Saki should stay on as prime minister. He's just said in the rounds it's up to the PM to decide what he does next. He said, "Stalmer is currently listening to colleagues and talking to colleagues. I can't say what decision he may or may not take. I'm not going to get ahead of the prime minister's decision." You would expect the chief secretary to the prime minister to say, "My boss is going to fight on." He's already eyeing another job, isn't he, Darren Jones? Did he? It is comical alleyesque uh in the the the the way that the Labour team has handled they've just trashed their brand in the way the conservatives trashed their brand in the final um you know year or two of uh that administration which I put my hands up you know I was very much uh part of that administration and I would literally come home and think you know what is the nation thinking yeah >> when they see politicians behave the way the conservative politicians behave gave at the end of that administration and this just takes it to a whole other level. The nation needs leadership. The nation needs a general election. Let's get on with it and have that because the only party that can actually fix this country um is is Nigel Farage and reform. You saw it in in the local elections in Manchester. We made real inroads.
>> Well, there's the irony here. Here's the irony, right? You talk about like the the the future. You've got you've got streeting who I love Ian Duncan Smith said he's been on maneuver since he was 10. You've got you've got the left who desperately want Kia to stay a couple of months so Bernham can weedle his way back into power and into the commons and Angela compare. But the thing about Burnham is and you know this as well as I do he has to stand in Manchester the messiah of Manchester I categor I know those figures of reform. You know why I know there is no way that Andy Burnham will win a seat in Manchester right now.
That's not happening. So they are absolutely I think completely in the mire. And the most frightening thing and I'd love your response to this is I can see exactly what's going to happen here.
Milliban's going to come right through the middle and that human being could end up as our prime minister. Don't think the British people will buy that without an election. It would be catastrophic for the economy. It would the the markets will I think punish the United Kingdom, punish the By the way, when I talk about the economy and I talk about the markets, it translates to people's energy bills, to people's utility bills, to people's livelihoods.
I you know again I refer to that message you read out that that lady whose mom has had to literally uh switch on and off her heating in the middle of winter.
Tragic. Uh that is what Miliban would do. The only way if they by the way the question that all journalists have to ask today to any Labor cabinet minister is do you put country ahead of party? If you put country ahead of party you've got to go to a general election. There is no two ways about it because the chaos if he says he's going to depart in September, then we're going to live through a lame duck premiership. What is just spare a thought for his majesty the king tomorrow? What does the king say tomorrow that here is my government's program for this whole parliament? They might deliver it. They may deliver it.
What will he say? It is absolutely chaos and it needs to go to general election very quickly to for the nation to decide how they want to be led. They decided that they want K star out. That was Nigel Farah's big message. Vote reform.
Get Star out. They're he's going to go now. The nation will want proper leadership under a reformed government.
This is a government. He's an apologist for a party that has ministers in it which called Brexit voters Nazis and which said that you're far right if you talk about rape games. I mean, talk about ranting. This is a government that has been ranting at the public for two years now in calling us names and insulting us and demeaning us. So, when they play this kind of cool, calm card, we're just sensible politicians and people like Jeremy Kyle are just ranting their heads off, that infuriates me because it's the opposite of the truth.
The truth of the matter is and I said it to him and I'll say it again. Yeah, I did run. I I am because I've started to hear and read some stuff this morning about oh Karma is a decent man and I will repeat this all bloody morning. Try telling that to the pensioners. Try telling that to my servicemen and women colleagues who are waiting to be prosecuted while the IRA have immunity.
Try telling that to farmers whose lives were taken because they were terrified about all sorts of stuff. Try telling that to alarm clock Brits who can't pay their bills. This man has not one shred of political DNA in his being. He's been found out at the highest level. And what will follow now, as Ian Duncan Smith quite rightly said, is chaos if he tries to cling on or stays till September whilst the left gathers themselves together. And it's the people of this country who will suffer in the meantime or a laughingtock on the international stage and domestically. I don't think I'd ever ever I mean, I just can't imagine it could happen this quickly.
>> It's it's amazing. uh you know this is something that it's really worth being angry about. This is something worth ranting about to use the guest's uh word. Uh the thing is that you know people talk about Karma Star's incompetence and the Manderson scandal and the fact that he's just not very good at the job. All of that's true.
That is why he's unpopular. But there's a deeper underlying reason which is his burning contempt for ordinary Brits. And we can't overlook what this government and its ministers have been saying about us for the past two years. After the Southport massacre, they said, "Don't be a far-right racist by speculating on who carried this out." In relation to the rape gangs, they said, "You're jumping on a far-right bandwagon if you get involved in this discussion." We were told it was a far-right dog whistle.
They actually said to workingclass communities up and down the country, "The rape of your daughters is a far-right dog whistle, and you should shut the hell up about it." They said that if you opposed migrant hotels, if you didn't want a thousand men from god knows where living at the end of your street, then you're a xenophobe and a racist. They insulted us. They destroyed our communities. They enforced economic measures that were very very harmful.
This is worth being angry about. And I think lots of people are >> couldn't agree more. And and and and I just look at the the legacy of, you know, no grooming gang inquiry, right? I the list goes on and on. Now, in terms of where we're at, Brendan, you know more than me. We've got live pictures here from Downing Street. The cabinet are meeting at 8:00. We heard rumors overnight. Shabbanamood, Home Secretary, for Foreign Secretary Vet Cooper both said it's time to go. 80 plus MPs. Um he's being um he's being advised by David Lammy. That perhaps sums it all up. But we had some breaking news. I'd love your response to a little bit earlier. The Prime Minister's Chief Secretary, Darren Jones, the one who said the boats are full of women. if you're worried about his judgment. He said, uh, I can't I I refuse to say.
It's up to the prime minister what he does next. He was very downbeat, very miserable. That could be really telling, couldn't it?
>> Yeah, it's game over. I think it depends. The only question now is how long it will take. Will he go quickly or will he drag it out? But I think, you know, when you've got the home secretary and the foreign secretary reportedly saying, um, give us a timetable, then it's really curtains for star. Uh but you know I'll make a point I've made before with you Jeremy which is that if they get a fresh face not that any of these are particularly fresh faces it's not going to make the difference because the problem here is that Labour doesn't have a K starro K star problem it has a Labor problem this is a party out of touch with ordinary people doesn't know what it wants to do with the country doesn't even trust ordinary people to run their own affairs it looks down its nose at us that's why it's in trouble it has been rejected by the working classes of this country and a new face is not going to change that.
>> I completely agree and and and whilst we watch this chaos unfold, you know, uh Burnham, the self-starred messiah trying to get back into I said something earlier that other that guy didn't like it at all. Andy Burnham, if he's the messiah, he's got to stand in Manchester because apparently he's the Messiah of Manchester. There is no way on God's earth he wins a seat to Manchester right now. We've all seen the voting intentions in Manchester. It's purely turquoise. It's reform from the beginning to the end of Manchester. So you've got Raina wanting an alliance with him. You've got Streeting on the other side, the Blairite candidate. By the way, pointed out by Matt Vickers. A lot more to come. I presume he said Matt Vicers about streeting and Mandelen. But you know what terrifies everybody more than anything, buddy. Right through the middle will come the most dangerous man in politics. Even more dangerous than Starmmer, Ed Milliband. I wake up in Britain to Ed Milliband as your prime minister was thrown out by the British people in 2015. You know, Jeremy, even listening to you say that all those names, I just think to myself, they're yesterday's men. Yeah. I mean, it's a busted flush, isn't it? Andy Burnham.
The idea that he's going to swoop in and save Labor and save the country is a pipe dream. It's just ridiculous. And Ed Milliband, as you say, I mean, what a d people talk about Nigel Farage being a dangerous prime minister. Imagine Milliband as someone who wants to just kill off our whole uh industry and oil exploration and gas digging and all the rest of it. he would push us into a kind of the hellhole of an apocalyptic future. All of these people, you know, they are not going to carry the candle for this nation. And you know, the least mysterious revolt in British history was the vote for reform in workingclass parts parts of Britain in the local elections. These are people who are ticked off with both the Tories and Labor, and they're looking for a fresh party that might actually treat them with a little bit of respect. That's what people are voting for. Now, >> final thing before we let you go. Great to have you on. Uh the only ace up star sleeve presumably is the threat of a general election. You get rid of me, I'll call a general election, you'll all lose your jobs. Do you think he'd go that low? Sunnak did.
>> He might do that. Yes. Because that is what a lot of Labour backbenches are worried about because they just want to save their own skins. They're not interested in who their constituents actually want representing them because a lot of their constituents no longer want them. They want a reform MP. Thanks very much. So they're terrified of going to the public just as they always have been. They want to insulate themselves from us rather than engage with us. So, he might play that card. I hope he does because the sooner we have a general election, the better because then we'll know really where the chips lie in this country.
>> Just to finish, my friend, I'm putting you on the spot. How would you sum up StarMA's premiership in one word?
>> Catastrophic.
>> Well, this is fun, isn't it? I mean, of course, it's very serious and the markets are in some degree of turmoil and we're all wondering what is the future of our country. Um but for us political journalists it's pretty good sport seeing them coming in and out everyone shouting bit of a circus right >> the executioners enter number 10 listen even the cat had done enough earlier Larry did one took his basket and buggered off he's not interested I have to say though and I get really angry earlier because you know people people were saying you know it's it's not fair I would simply say this to anybody who you know people he's a human being try explaining that to the waspy women are fighting men and women being persecuted ever being in the army to and I'll repeat it all morning to farmers, okay, to the grooming gangs victim that never got a look. Breaking news, Isabel Oakshot, Labour MP and leftwinger John Macdonald has just now accused West Streeting of launching a coup against the prime minister and Labour MPs have made it known that is breaking news.
They're going to eat themselves for breakfast. He and a bunch of other not he actually some Labour MPs overnight Isabelle have warned they will remove Wes Streeting from number 10 quicker than Liz Truss if he dares to believe he'll be prime minister. Unbelievable scenes in Downey Street right now.
>> Oh my god. Honestly, I mean look I let's let's just zoom out from this minute for a minute. No prime minister can survive this. It's just not happening. Now the only debate then is whether he can survive until September. Um, instinctively I feel that that's what he would want to do in order to save face.
You know, only yesterday did he stand out there and say in front of the world's media and say, "I'm not going away. I'm not walking away from this.
You know, it's my duty to carry on." So, he's going to be pretty >> breaking news. Isabelle, the Telegraph is just reporting that six cabinet ministers are expected in the next 10 minutes to tell him to resign, otherwise they will start plotting against him.
Six cabinet ministers now. Sorry babe, that's the way it is. We've got view on that. But six, not three six. Carry on Isabelle. Sorry.
>> He's done for. He's absolutely done for.
So the qu the question is now just actually one of choreography. Um and there are a few options. You know, he could say um I'm setting out my timetable to leave. It's actually what Tony Blair did all those years ago. Um Blair gave almost a year's notice, I think. But it's a bit different because there was in Gordon Brown there was an agreed successor. Yeah. Um, but you could say, "I'm going to leave in the autumn." Many leaders have done this from other political parties, and that gives time for a a long and what's going to be likely very bloody leadership contest.
>> Does that not does that not also raise the spectre, which I think all of us would would agree? What about the country whilst all of this is going on?
While all these chaotic, you know, bitching and and fighting for the job, this country is on its backside and things will get worse while they're fighting. Oh, hold on. cars reversing up Downing Street. Is he taking some furniture with it and a couple of suitcases? No, we don't think so at the moment.
>> Um, so >> go on, crack on. Sorry.
>> Yeah. So, you ask about what about the country? I mean, we've got an immediate problem this week. The king is supposed to be giving the king's speech where he talks about what his government is going to do. Well, his government is in freef fall. Um, and I don't know how that speech can go ahead. I mean it probably I guess it probably will go ahead whatever happens because they'll say well this is a Labor government king speech rather than a um a karmama king speech um but still it's very awkward um and we the other question is what how the economy how the markets react you know what's happening in the bond markets we know that that did for quasi and Liz Truss markets don't like uncertainty and months months and months of a a horrendous leadership contest in which the Labour party eats itself uh tears tear each other apart would be very bad economically. So the alternative to the I'll leave in September would be I am quitting forth with uh and there will be a caretaker leader whether that's don't all laugh David Lammy or I don't know John Healey or whatever somebody gets installed by mutual agreement for I don't know three months whatever the the most condensed timetable could be for a contest I think the least likely scenario is any kind of coronation just not happening is it >> well I I Think I think that's where Wes Streeting who you know I mean I don't think he's got a chance. I mean I I think that um I think that what will happen and I was going to make this point to you um is that that that we will be in a position where the left and the right now go for each other's jugulars much like the Tory party which is why Farage's success last Thursday comes into even sharper focus. I remember on an interview I did with Nigel Farage about a year ago. He said to me, "I don't believe this government will last until 2029. The big issue now Isabelle is this and it's interesting because I we checking this this morning when Boris Johnson pastor Liz Truss who passed Rushi Sunnuk every single time that happened up jumped Kia Star to say you do not have a mandate from the British people you should call a general election." Well, I would suspect that every single opposition MP will be saying exactly the same whether it's a caretaker or another one. They did not win a mandate. They will say, "But it was the government's mandate." I don't know where you stand on that. What's your thoughts?
>> Well, let me be very plain. There's not going to be a general election as a result of this. It's just not going to happen. And if I've got this wrong and you want to play this clip in, I don't know, two or three months time, I'm going to be very happy because it will be a really nice problem for reform to have. You know, I would be I would like nothing more than an election to happen next week, the week after, whenever. I think the country is crying out for it.
But the there are there are no reasons zero reasons why the Labor Party is going to that this Labor administration whoever it's run by they're not going to bow to that. The only circumstances in which I can realistically see that happening and this is the Nigel Farage um kind of interpretation his analysis is that if we get a um a hard leftwing replacement K star and some kind of market crisis and that prime minister the new prime minister cannot get the measures that they need to take to stabilize the economy past their own party. It's not going to happen. Um mark my words. Um, quick questions. Um, does he go? Yes or no?
>> Yes.
>> When?
>> Well, we've just been addressing that, haven't we?
>> In your mind, what do you think?
>> I think it'll be I think they'll probably go for September, and I think there'll be a But he'll do the timet now, and I think there might be a caretaker potentially.
>> Okay. Who would that caretaker be in your mind?
>> It it it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Just a caretaker.
>> Oh, mate. I want to have a street party.
I've never been happier in my life. Did you see this coming this quickly, pal?
What do you reckon?
>> We've been predicting this, haven't we?
Over time. I I mean, he's been struggling for for months, hasn't he?
Not least because of the Mandlesson scandal, uh, which is really done for him. But he he's always struggled, let's be honest about this. It started with the freebies. It started with the hypocrisy. Everything that he criticized his opponents for is he's been guilty of. It's as though he's been looking in the mirror, isn't it? And and now he's been hoisted by his own petard. I mean, this is the reality of it. He will go or announce that he's going in the next couple of days.
>> Do you believe that he'll limp on till September and we'll all suffer as a country or do you think it will be swift?
>> That's a really interesting question. I don't think I can call it. The smart move for Wes Streeting will be to strike in the next 24 hours.
>> Can't win it. Can't win it. Site, he can't win it. I can't have it. How can he win it?
>> Well, he certainly can't win it if Angela Raina or Andy Bernhammer are in the race. That's for sure. Now, if they're not in the race and it's a short contest, he might just get through it.
He might just win it. But you're right.
I mean, the big point is that he would be the best option for the country as much as we have a choice within Labor.
Uh, but he's the least popular person within the Labor Party.
>> I'm going to bring this up and he'll probably criticize me for it, but I'm entitled to my opinion. you say be the best for the country of a bad job. This is a man who lorded the fact that he done a deal with the with the junior doctors. He chose to give them 28%. That was his choice when he was the incoming health secretary, but he didn't attach any conditions to that and within 12 months they were back asking for more.
You're expecting me to believe he should be in charge of the finances of the country? I think not. But you're right.
Where is where is the quality replacement? I mean, you heard maybe you didn't. Sarah Poachin said Kia Starmer is Reform UK's biggest asset apart from Nigel Farage.
>> Oh, I I completely agree with that point. The ideal would be that Kia Storm stayed in place and reform would continue to do very well. But I make the point about West Street and is the best of a bad lot. That's the point I'm making. And it might have to get worse before it gets better for the British public. What I do think is that with Stararma going, it moves us closer to a general election. Yeah. Sooner rather than later, there will be a lot of pressure on whoever takes over from Star to call a general election.
>> Do you think that he'll play the only ace in his hand? I've been asking this question all morning because I think it's relevant. Do you think he'll play the only ace in his hand and throw his toys out of his pram and say, "Right, you laugh and bat me. I'm calling an election." much as Sunn did threw his toys out the pram. Much as Cameron did after the referendum, he threw his toys out the pram. Can you see Starmmer doing that or not?
>> I can't see that happening. I think people would be advising him against that, but you just do never you do not know with this guy. He's he's relatively unpredictable. He's a strange guy.
That's been his problem, hasn't he? He's never been able to connect with the British public. He's come into politics in a very short period of time. He's been overpromoted. Uh, he's beat off Jeremy Corbyn. He's become prime minister, but he's just not fit for the job. He's the worst prime minister in my lifetime. And I don't say that lightly.
I say that objectively.
>> In terms of colleagues that you used to have in the Labor Party, do you still speak to some of them?
>> Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. I speak to a number of Labour MPs and get a good view of what's going on there.
>> What do they say? What do they say right now? Oh, well, everybody is of the view that he needs to go, but it is about timing and and I return to that point.
The best deal for streeting is for a for a quick election, leadership election.
Uh Burnham is trying to play it out. I have no time for Burnham. I have to say, >> I have to ask you, you're from that area. I work there 15 years. Tell me if I'm wrong because I've been slated for this opinion. All I hear is the self-styled messiah of Manchester. go to Manster cuz it's not the utopia that people seem to believe in London. I don't think he's achieved much at all.
Sorry. I think he's just become this sort of cult hero with very little fact to back it up.
>> Yeah, I completely agree with you. He's more narcissistic than uh Kia Starmer and that's saying something. So, he's a big believer in himself. We have to remember he went for the leadership of the Labour Party on two occasions and lost it. This is a a guy that started out as ultra Blairite and now tacked to the left because it was convenient for him to do so both in terms of Jeremy Corbyn and in terms of uh being the mayor for Greater Manchester he's all over the P place Mr. flip-flop undoubtedly >> and that's why and don't panic when I say this peeps that's why I would never agree with a word she says I don't like what happened with HMRC but you knew or you know with Angela Raina what you're going to get I said last week on the show there's nothing about Jeremy Corbyn's policies that I find anything less than abhorrent right but at least he had the balls to stand an election on a on a manifesto that he believed in that was roundly rejected I've never felt with Stalmer that there's any semblance I mean Some Labor advisor said to him he's had a plan. He hasn't had a plan at all. He's he's managed hour by hour depending on what a focus group says in my humble.
>> Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's been his problem. He has never had a vision for what the country should be trying to achieve. And I have to say Andy Bernham would be very similar to that. He will flip-flop all over the place depending on who's talking to him that day. And we don't want more of the same. I think Andy Bernham would be a disaster for Britain, I have to say. And you're right. I mean, at least you know what you're getting me, Angela Rainey.
She's hard left. That's her politics.
And I don't endorse it. I don't think she should be the prime minister, but at least you know what she stands for.
>> And so what we're faced with with the timing of what will undoubtedly be the end of Karma is if it goes on for a while so the left can have their game, we will just let I mean, tomorrow, I've only got a minute. the king's going to stand up and say, "This is the workings of my government." By which time, the guy that's in charge of that could be toast. How does that work?
>> Yeah, it's complete madness. I mean, this is an historical event. I would go as far as to say a Kia Starmer has practically killed the Labor Party. This North London view of what the Labor Party should be has turned out to be disastrous. It's a complete disaster.
It's killed the Labour Party.
>> Um, okay. Final question. Does he go yes or no? He will certainly go whether it's in 20 he will announce his he is going in in the next 24 48 hours max he will announce that he's going. It's all about timing.
>> Um so uh king's speech today um and sources inside the palace have apparently been at pains to tell the Labour government that they should not in any way drag the king into the shambolic chaos that is carrying on.
Have you heard anything on this?
>> Yeah. Well, I I just sort of can suggest various things. I mean, the king saved this dreadful prime minister's problem when he was in America. He read a brilliant speech. Um he was absolutely top and now we have to be careful that is not used for him again. Um because it's not right. You're not going to use someone to do all your dirty work, frankly. So I was very pleased when I heard that um the king himself um said that um sent some things back with alterations.
>> I think I think that what there's a lot of people right Angela in black and white who will say why doesn't you just come today and say I dissolve parliament don't agree and I have to keep explaining that a constitutional monarchy means >> constitutional. Yeah, we've seen the queen, you and I have seen the queen over a number of years read out policies for her government that she patently disagrees with. But this is this is highlighted a lot more because Starmmer seems to have in a in a short space of 22 months alienated almost everybody at home and abroad. And people are saying, and this is what I wanted to put to you, take some doing to sit there and talk about something you fundamentally don't want to be talking about, but more than that, the plans of of a man who could be gone by Friday for Christ's sake. That's the issue, isn't it?
>> Yeah, that is a very important issue.
And I think that the king has been very careful about this. Of course, it is a constitutional monarchy, which means that the monarch has to do what he's told by the government. So, people don't realize that, but it is that. But you can still save yourself and not do the dirty work. That's the thing that's very important. Um and I and I think that um the king is fed up with this man and he might Yes. And I think he might even say one or two things that actually slipped in.
>> Well, I must say one thing about him in America. He managed to have the Democrats and the Republicans eating out of his hands. And he made a couple of barbed comments about about um Trump who was either not intelligent enough to know that the king was being subtle or missed the point cuz he clapped them as well. I don't know. You're saying the king's fuming then behind the scenes with Star, you reckon? Right.
>> I'm not saying he's fuming, but I think he's very careful and he will not be used for um Starmmer. That's the point.
I think that's really very important because you can see Star is not a man which you would trust or believe in or anything. At least I'm not. And so you drop things.
>> Why don't you why don't you trust Kama?
He's going to change the world, isn't he?
Never. I' I've disliked him from the moment because you can't trust him. You You know, he says he's going to do something and he never does. Um he he sort of is a creep. I really can't stand him. And I think >> creep you want the truth, don't you? Um >> shall I tell you what I think? I think he's an overpromoted vacuous little accountant/solicitor who's unbelievably got to where he is. I think he was an appalling. Do you know I remember Boris Johnson in the House of Commons saying and you missed Jimmy Savile and there was uproar and I thought no he's absolutely right. Have you seen the clip today about him talking about Johnson? Have you seen this?
>> No.
>> I'm going to make you morning. I'm going to make Angela's morning play. This is him four years ago. Angela, have a watch. Go on. Play this for me.
>> All this nonsense about clinging on for a few months. He's inflicted lies, fraud, and chaos in the country. And you know we're stuck with a function with a government which isn't functioning in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
And the change we need is not a change at the top of the Tory party is much more fundamental than that. We need a change of government and a fresh start for Britain. His own party have finally concluded that he's unfit to be prime minister. They can't now inflict him on the country for the next few months.
It's obvious he's unfit to be prime minister. That's been blindingly obvious for a very very long time.
>> Wonder who he's talking about. An >> is anybody pushing it through the door?
Um so they can actually have another read.
>> It it's it's interesting you you said what you did.
>> Amazing.
>> I want to go back to the king. I want to try and think about how difficult it will be for him at the king's speech today. And he's not a well man.
Difficult, right? Fuming. Fuming is the wrong word. He's going to be angry, right? But the thing is that he did so well in in in America that I feel he feels that he can do it again because he's a brilliant person in that sort of way and it's very important for him and I don't think he likes the man because he knows that he would like to get rid of the um um people who are in in the sorry people who are royal. He doesn't want it. So he would like to get rid of it and the king doesn't want to get rid of it. So he's going to be very dignified and I think there might be just a couple of things sort of pushed in.
>> Do you are you saying that the king doesn't like Starha?
>> Well, if somebody was with you and you've been working in an area for you know many years 70 something years and they you know that they don't give a button for what you're doing. They wanted it to not to happen. You know, they would like to >> You make a really good point. Starma has in the past, I'm I'm pretty sure has has has been part of a party that is would like to to change the monarchy and that will create things. Interestingly, Charles is probably Angela probably a bit to the left in certain policies and probably as much as anything would be angry that that that Starmmer has imploded as spectacularly as he's done by lying and letting people down. Yes, I'm I'm sure that's right. He's very honorable and this man is not. But I do also think that he feels very very strongly for the for the monarchy and that is his life, isn't it?
>> Yes.
>> And it's his mother's life and when somebody wants to get rid of them or they you can tell that they're being phony when they meet you, you can't possibly like them.
>> Uh, two quick questions. Would you say then that Starmmer's using the king to cover or make up for the mistakes he's made?
>> Oh, sorry. Who >> would you say that Starmmer's using the king to to to cover up his >> Oh, yes. That's what I mean. You know, he would like it. He want He saw how well the the king has done. He hasn't decided, well, let me go so I don't make the life difficult for the king. He's just hanging on in there. As you say, he's going to stay till tomorrow. But is the it's ridiculous really because you say what's going on and then in two days later it's not happening.
>> Final question. It's going to be my favorite one I've ever asked you. You've got to have dinner with one of them. Kia Starmer or Meghan Markle.
>> Um I would have both and give them a real write off.
>> Let's get a um let's get an unbiased political view of what that actually involves today. a parliamentary and constitutional historian, Daniel Britain. Welcome to Talk Breakfast.
Haven't you got the right surname?
Imagine if you were called Daniel, you know, Ukraine.
>> I know. I've been lumbered with this forever, Jeremy. Very nice to join you on the on the program. Thanks for asking me. Two T's in my name, Britain, but um I'm prepared to lose one of them if that would make me more patriotic.
>> I think you're very patriotic. It's good to have a patriot on. today loads of people and this isn't political but loads of people saying a how uncomfortable for the king understanding that he's constitutionally bound not to be political but he's going to announce a raft of measures for a government that are in freef fall and a prime minister who might not be there by Friday >> and this is a this is not the first time the monarch has done this Jeremy I was interested in your caller just before the break um king's had two tough gigs in the last four Fortnite I mean addressing the US Congress and today at Westminster for the state opening. Uh and there have been rumors that the palace wanted to make a more scaledown version of state opening. I think that would be entirely wrong. I think the point of the monarchy is it treats every speech exactly the same. Whatever the government, whatever the state that government is in uh with the electorate, it take an entirely neutral position and carry on as normal. The date is not entirely accidental apart from it being the 13th. I guess it was chosen quite deliberately to be after the local elections. Very soon after the local elections and um the pianist knew that we're having a normal king speech and the c king will carry out his constitutional duty. I think the difference between them is that when he addressed Congress, he could put much of his own personality into that speech. Uh the speech at Westminster is far more constrained and is written by the government. King King's speeches actually used to be rather less formal in the language and the king would often say things that he thought were interested in in the public sphere.
They're much more constrained and that started under the throne of Queen Elizabeth.
>> Do you understand though the people who say that this puts our monarch in a difficult position? And yes, it's his constitutional role that there will be people who would have seen the success that he had in the United States.
Extraordinary self-diplomacy. I thought it was brilliant example and and for me as a royalist, I I thought, you know, that hopefully would have quelled some of the discontent because I thought he was absolutely fantastic and everything the monarchy should be. Um there are people that texted me in the hundreds this morning saying they feel sorry they they they feel like he's being used really uh in a situation. I mean, we've heard this morning, you probably know more about this, the palace sources have said that there was a sort of pressure put yesterday to the Labour Party in its entirety. Don't have any of the shenanigans and shambles that we saw yesterday on the day of the king's speech and there are rumors that Wes Streeting if he is going to resign will wait till tomorrow. So, there is some involvement in the palace wanting to make it look as as as normal as possible.
Well, well, firstly, as I said, I think the the palace, in fact, the best plan for the palace is to do every king's speech exactly like it's normally done.
Otherwise, you do end up possibly showing bias to one side or the other.
Don't move with the wind. Stay steadfast. But on your second point, I think Labor and the word probably has been put about uh we're getting that from Downing Street that there is no shenanigans on the King's speech day.
Shenanigans can start afterwards uh but none today. It'd be quite interesting immediately after the king's speech when the parliamentarians have had their lunch, the commons and lords will reassemble and they will discuss uh the king's speech in the in the commons.
That will be a very lively debate and then we'll be getting to see rarely the lie of the land uh between the parties but within the parties. Um, but I don't think they're going to do anything to upset the palace today.
>> Let's go to the Labour MP for Blackley in Middleton South, Graeme Stringer.
Good morning, my friend.
>> Morning.
>> Oh, I can't hear you. You're all right.
>> Uh, yes, I I I am.
>> Um, you were one of the first to say you need to go. Uh, again, somebody like Carl Turner with what I would describe as um just character and and belief and trying to do the right thing. What do you make of what you saw yesterday, Gray?
>> Um, well, it's chaos. The argument the prime minister is putting forward is he needs to stay in uh Downing Street to avoid chaos. Actually, he is the author of the chaos that there is in government and the Labor Party. Now, the foundations of that uh chaos are in two foundation stones really. one uh he has failed to convince the public that what the government is doing is in their interests and I told him that in no uncertain terms uh last Thursday and the other foundation stone is the mistakes that the government has made um you don't know where to stop counting but at least 18 mistakes that have required U-turn so the public don't uh like they got surprises after we got in. I think everybody was looking forward to a period of stability after the uh shenanigans of the previous Conservative government. And what happened? We got announcements of things that had not been debated in the general election and a failure to implement the manifesto that was put for the people. So that's where things come from. The Labour Party, as Nigel said, has been hopeless at changing leaders, which is one of the reasons we've only had four uh leaders who won majority uh positions in in in the House of Commons. We have gone into elections in the past with leaders we know were not supported by the electorate who lost those elections.
>> Graeme, um lots of quick questions for you. Um, and I appreciate your honesty.
Um, you said early on that this wasn't good enough. Let's talk about this morning Starmer and Streeting set for a number 10 showdown. Um, I'm not in any position to judge, but it's now or never. Nigel Evans says streeting will stick his head above the parapit and resign after the king's speech. What's your thoughts?
>> I have no idea what Wes is uh going to do. But I think if you want to be leader uh then you have to be brave. You have to show you're a leader. And I I I think the prime minister is saying that to West Street. Tony Blair after John Smith died said, "I'm not waiting for you, Gordon. I want to be leader. I am a leader." And he did it. And there's a similar uh point waiting for Wes.
>> Would you support Wes Streeting?
>> It depends who was up against him.
>> Angela, let's say >> uh I'd sp over Angela.
>> Uh Andy Burnham. Well, Andy's not an MP, and I don't want him to become an MP, right?
>> Because not not because I've got anything against Andy. He's done a very good job as the mayor of Greater Manchester, but he gave a commitment to do that job for uh the full term. He would be walking away from what he described as the best job in the world, and he would be leaving the back door open as the morality of Greater Manchester to reform or another party.
Isn't the reality though, even if he has to stand in a bi-election in Manchester, if you look at those local election results, that that reform would whoop his backside in in a bi-election right now as well.
>> Bi-elections are notoriously risky and difficult and he certainly is not guaranteed to win a bi-election because I suspect the public would not want to be manipulated uh by somebody who's got an elected position.
>> Uh you're such a wise man. The final question and it sticks in my throat a bit. You'd support Wes over Angela? Uh, no comment on Burnham because he's not in Parliament. Oh god. Wes or Ed Milliband?
>> That's the easiest. Wes, >> that's the easiest. But you see, most people on our side of the fence think that that that that human being is going to sidle up the center and get the job.
Ed Miller Band.
>> Well, he's failed once. Uh, he lost the 2015 election, which is a winnable election. I know most people in the country both business and individuals are thirsting because of the cost of energy. Ed has been responsible for that energy policy. I think that's a mistake.
But he was also a loser as uh leader of the Labor Party uh what 11 years ago.
>> You said at the beginning um 22 months the Labour Party's been in power. You talked quite rightly about the shenanigans of the Tory party. I can't believe myself that in little under two years your party with this massive majority has managed to to almost surpass that. Um you know I read a great piece from Dan Hodgeges this morning that said that they were dysfunctional to the point of dysfunctionality the tourists but at least in the end all of those leaders realized or were forced to realize that the time was up. This man by the hour I mean his opinion ratings are the lowest of any prime minister. He can only be accused of of of doing what he's doing because he's addicted to the power. If it was for the good of the working man that your parties woman has always talked about, he'd have fallen on his sword yesterday, wouldn't he?
>> Well, or before. I I do think uh we're in danger of uh destroying the the Labor Party for a a long time as an electoral force. And I think that the prime minister not only has to think about the Labor Party which has supported him, he has to think about the country uh because as the author uh of this chaos, I don't think it can go on.
>> I couldn't agree more. Um just final question. Sorry Bud. um feeling in the parliamentary Labor Party. A hundred say he should go and hundred have signed this letter and yet we've had sources telling us this morning that you know for the hundred that signed 200 said no because there was pressure from the whips. Is that right?
>> Well that's the job of the whips, isn't it? I mean I I know I looked very quickly through the names and some of the ministers who are still in office and I know from private conversation uh with them uh that their view is similar to mine rather than being completely loyal to K. There's undoubtedly been uh pressure put on by the whips and downings.
>> All right, final final final final question. It's a one-word answer. How long has he got? When does he go?
>> Uh that's the most difficult question you've asked. I I don't know. Uh it it depends on if there's a challenge and everything else, which I have no insight into.
>> People are not feeling better off and and worse than that, what they're feeling is very fearful that what what is coming, whether or not it's Starhalmer who's still in Downing Street delivering it. God help us all. Or someone even worse, it's not going to make life any more affordable. It's not going to make our country feel any safer. Um, and as for the word prosperity, I mean, when was that used in relation to the United Kingdom? Not for as long as anybody can remember.
>> Couldn't agree more. Um, we are on resignation Wesley watch today. I just like to throw a few things at you. We're we're rushing through the show for obvious reasons today. Wes Streeting, we saw him walk up down his street and leave in a huff yesterday. I'd say that was for optics. Do you think he will stick his head above the parapit today?
Yes or no?
>> Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that Angela Well, I want I can't wait for this. What do you think of the timing of our an being cleared by HMRC saying as the rest of us? We've been trying to speak to them for 10 godamn years. Woman >> Jez, you're so cynical. I mean, it's just a coincidence, isn't it? It's just a coincidence.
>> She's done this weeks ago and sat on this because I think she's going to put her head above the parapit because I think you saw the clip I played. I think that's unbelievable from 12 months ago.
I think she'd shaft anybody including Burnham for the job. I don't think it's unbelievable at all. I've seen politicians do this a thousand times.
>> No, you haven't. What are you trying to say about politicians? Isabel Oakshot.
You're going to marry one.
>> They all go through this ritual. They all say they're not interested in a job.
In fact, the one unusual thing about Wes Streeting, this is really unusual is that he's been very open from the start that he's interested in the job. And what I think he's going to do is give a speech about his great achievements in the NHS and how that means that he shows that he can change the most fundamental most pressing things in our country. No one should be deceived about this. You know, any indications that waiting lists are coming down is because of the way they're managing these waiting lists and saying that they're dealing with people by giving them so-called urgent appointments in 2027. I'll tell you what I'd say if I was sat in a studio with him, which patently isn't going to happen. I'd say two things to Mr. Streeting. One, the deal you did with Junior Doctors, which increased the so-called black hole by millions, had no strings attached to it and was so poorly constructed that the junior doctors, the BMA came back 12 months later for more.
And as for allowing puberty blockers on young kids, don't even tell me you're good enough for the top job, but I want him to stick his head above the parapit cuz I want the nasal night out of number 10.
>> Well, um I want him to stick his head above the parapit because we can't go on like this. We absolutely can't. I do think streeting would probably be better than the the cardboard the speaking cardboard box that we've got. And we all like a good leadership contest. Um, but it is our our country that's at stake here. And I I'm not having any of this I'm fixing the NHS twaddle. I I'm seeing so many shocking cases, people revealing that they have been put on waiting lists till 2027. And also another really concerning thing that's coming out, and I'd love any of our listeners and viewers if they've got any any experience of this. Um, I've seen a number of reports now of British patients being put towards the back of the queue whilst newcomers to our country are fasttracked for health care because providers are getting some kind of bonus for it. Now, if that is true, that is so beyond outrageous and scandalous that we need to expose it and put it up there and make it stop.
Couldn't agree more. got any information about that, please?
>> Yeah, let us know on that one. Last night, MPs on the left of the party were allegedly debating whether to back our Angela or Red Ed Milliband if Burnham, the self-styled king of the north, whatever, is locked out of the race.
Think Angela will stand after the HMRC announcement this morning?
>> Well, I hope she does because it will add to the gaity of the nation. Um, I think she'd be an absolute catastrophe, but it would be, you know, what a hell of a ride that would be. It's just an extraordinary scenario and I I said to Shojan Joseph, you know, this country and Isabelle, you're so right, is paralyzed whilst this cacophony of chaos continues. And the duplicity of the I mean, I've played the clip there from Angela saying, "I never want to be the leader. I never want to really Okay, then we'll see in the next 12 hours."
Yesterday, I played a clip from Star saying, "This man needs to go. He's lied to the people. He's let them down. He's got no support. He's this." Well, that was you four years ago. And the whole thing is is farical, you know. I mean, I love Donald Trump yesterday. Did you hear what he said with advice to Starmer? You've got it round the wrong way. The North the North Sea's closed and the borders are open. You need to flip that and open the North Sea and close the borders. Of course, he's dead right. Um just give me a give me a little um Oakshot um gem. Where does this end? Does it does it happen today?
Does it drag on for months? What do you reckon?
>> I think it will start today. you know the a leadership contest will be triggered today and I think it will be a very long one. Um I think it'll be an absolute right mess. Um and the whole thing comes the time frame will come down to um the whole the the big Andy Burnham thing. Um because >> what is it about Burnham is what is it?
>> I mean I I don't know. I mean I you know I know Andy kind of feel like I know him quite well. He's a really nice guy. Um, but you could equally say, what is it about Sadi Khan that he became mayor of London, one of the biggest and best jobs in British politics? He's an absolute beist politician. Sadique Khan was never troubling the players at the top of the Labour Party, you know, years ago. He's not a charismatic, exceptional performer. He doesn't do much. We know that from the state that London's in.
And yet, he got that top job. Andy Bernham, you know, he's a really nice guy. Actually, I think he's competent.
Um, but is this the kind of king over the water thing? Just because he can't do the job, people think, well, he's the answer to things.
>> It's another day at the circus, isn't it?
>> Jeez, man. I've had I've had a Labour MP on this morning. Show Jan Joseph, brave enough to come in, who told me, and I quote, um, Star's a good man. We've done an awful lot, and the economy has grown by 0.6%. Um, I just want to do it differently with you. Uh I was just merily waiting on Wesley watch as I called it and then 6:20 this morning.
Oh, Kel Har. Uh Angela Raina cleared by HMRC of deliberate wrongdoing or carelessnesses over a tax affairs puts their right in the game. Stevie B.
>> Yeah, absolutely. And the Labour left are looking for an anyone but Wes candidate. They fear Wes as being on what passes for the right of the Labour party. So they could well be looking now at Angela Raina as the candidate of the left instead of Ed Milliband. As I think Mel Stride said on your program earlier, any of them would be a disaster. I've said before I think Wes is probably the least worst, but it doesn't mean I think he's a good idea, but it it is a carryon now. Um I feel for his majesty having a king's speech overshadowed by all this.
Um but it kind of almost doesn't matter what was in the king's speech because it won't get carried through until there's stability. So yeah, a real carryon and Angela Raina would I think be the candidate of the Labour left.
>> Uh Mandy in Essics. I I mean this is this is not the level of the people that are listening, but I love the honesty.
Um guys, I honestly don't give a toss who wins the leadership of the contest.
It's like trying to pick your favorite veneerial disease.
>> God, you a good point.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You you quite um you were quite into all the shenanigans and the comingings and goings around Brexit.
First thing I wanted to say to you was how impressive was Cammy Badnaugh yesterday? Oh, she was absolutely magnificent. Yeah, of course she was.
She was stellar and she really was authentic as well. She she put it all out there and really went for it and uh yeah, I thought it was a magnificent performance and she was having no nonsense whatsoever. I saw that the pop star Nicki Minaj tweeted out that one day they'll make films about Kem and I think there's a good chance if she can.
>> Does it frustrate you as the Tory and do you agree with my analogy that she is sadly it looks like the right person at the wrong time?
Um well no because she can make her own future. I mean leader of the opposition is one of the very biggest uh platforms in British public life. People can see she's good and what she needs to do I would suggest is put a fantastic team around her on the front bench and get the most out of them as well. And then we'll start rebuilding a reputation. But you know the truth is the Conservative party messed up on a number of fronts over >> it's a toxic brand though isn't it? Like the Labour party both are toxic brands right now. Fair point. Uh yeah, it it is a fair point that we got a lot a lot to get over after 14 years of a lot of disappointments through some very hard times and that will have to be sorted out. Um but I think one of the problems we've all got to guard against is putting undue amounts of hope in any particular individual or any party. I mean you you put it very well on Monday.
Someone needs to say these are tough times. We've been spending too much money. We're going to have to cut spending and go for lower taxes and growth. you you put it particularly well the need to front up to the honest assessment of the situation we're in and I think if Kem does that as she said she wants to uh if she puts the right team around her I think she can rescue the Tory party by the next election >> I think the British people are fed up with being I hate the phrase gaslighted because I'm too old but you know I I want my politician I'll repeat what I said to you on Monday to go look times are bad there's my plan um I'm not squeaky clean I've done this I've done that just so you They'll attack me because I'm going to do this. Uh, I'll take you on a journey. I'll be honest with you when it goes well, and I'll be honest with you when it goes bad. And if at the end of the time that you give me, I've messed up. You can kick me out, but let's have a go together. It's raw. It's going to be a journey. I see too many politicians who pretend to be something they're not. And and and I interview too many politicians who just don't seem to have and and I I level this at st more than any politician. Just doesn't have that gutal just nothing. It's just just nothing. And yet, do you know the worst bit is Steve? I sit here thinking is he he's probably the best of the most appalling bad lot I've ever seen.
>> I'm sure I've said it before that whoever comes after Star is quite likely to be worse. I'm just looking at him there on the camera. I mean, you know, some people do like him. Um, he was accomplished in his field as a prosecutor. U but, you know, he's exposed too many flanks. He's not coped with the acceleration of >> political debate due to social media. He he doesn't have charisma. He doesn't look authentic. He's done the wrong things. I mean, it does look like he's finished. I mean, one of the big problems that's underestimated here is how on earth the Labour Party in Parliament will now patch up the relations between MPs. They're going to be fighting like cats in a sack for the rest of this parliament. And I just don't know how any leader will patch it up. I mean, the sooner we come to a general election, the better in terms of being rid of them. But that puts a huge burden on both Kem and Nigel Farage, not only to work out what they would do, but to work out whether they'll come to some kind of pact in order to make sure we don't get a rainbow coalition of uh the left, which is worse than any of our worst nightmares.
>> You said something on Monday that gained real traction, but I want it for another audience because I thought it was genius. I asked you on Monday at 10 6 why in your mind prime ministers refuse to leave 10 down street. Do please pray tell me what you said because it's brilliant this >> well politicians do have to be understood like addicts. You know they are addicted to power. So a new backbencher it's a little sniff can cannabis and then you get into ministerial office and it's snorting cocaine and then by the time you're prime minister you're mainlining heroin and they're totally addicted to it.
something somebody said to me a long time ago. I should say I've never taken any kind of >> I love that mainlinining heroin. That's exactly why STAM's hanging off.
>> You know, I don't wish to make light of the plight of addicts. I've worked with addicts and I've worked with people in rehab from from addiction and it's extremely serious uh point, but that's not really really the metaphor that I'm drawing here is that it's a terrible mistake to think that any prime minister will go easily. they've got the thing that they crave and they will cling on to it uh when they're in power in Downing Street.
>> Loads of loads of people this morning saying that they think Stum will ride this out till September, wait for Burnham to be in a seat, resign, hand over the the reigns uh without any pain.
I want you to sum I want you to sum up this is putting you on the spot. Sum up stmer in one word.
>> Oish.
>> Brilliant.
>> Sum up streeting in one word. Ambition.
>> Brilliant. Sum up Rena in one word.
>> Opportunistic.
>> Oh, you're good at this. Sum up Milliband in one word.
>> Ignorant.
>> Oh, and finally, >> oh, I don't like to say that. That's because he does not understand.
>> Burn them. Burn them. Burn them.
>> Oh. Um probably cool.
>> How are we?
>> Uh yeah well you know came in this morning Wesley watch thought you know our Wes was going to stick head above parapit and then found out at 20 6 our been cleared by HMRC have just literally in respect you know people come on and all sides we've just spoken to Shojan Joseph the labor who supports Dharma and thinks he's the best person for the job.
Well, I mean, listen, good for him and good for Kier. At least there's somebody, you know, that's fantastic to hear. But, you know, honestly, the the main issue I think that, you know, we we have right now is that yes, obviously Star, I think, is sort of deeply unpopular amongst the rest of the country. But, I do think what you're seeing is a slight hesitancy from amongst Labour MPs and that's because they know the caliber of their own colleagues. They know the likes of Angela Raina and Wes Streeting and Ed Milliband. They meet them, you know, on a regular basis and what they will be thinking to themselves is, do these people really have what it takes to get us out of this quagmire?
>> I don't think anybody gets out of the quagmire. I don't think anybody gets them out the quagmire. I think it's of their own bloody making. But but it's true. You're right. You sit here, I sit here and go, >> geez, Angela Rena, I mean, what about the timing of the HMRC thing this morning, mate? I mean, come on. She sat on that. That's because she's going to go over the wall later in it. Yeah, that is that is what's going to happen there.
And you know, Milliban will as well, I suspect. And you the thing is, of course, we all understand that the one that they really want is Andy Burnham.
But then there are the huge question marks over whether or not that's even remotely possible. And you know, I'm also just going to put this out here, Andy Burnham, I do not think actually is that popular in the country generally.
Just because he seems a bit cuddly and nice in Manchester does not mean that he would be electable as a prime minister.
But you're right actually whoever it is that takes over from Starmmer will suffer the same issues that he does because the problems that the country faces are structural and the problems that the Labour party faces are structural. You a new a new leader is not going to be able to convince the backbearers to vote to cut welfare spending. Even though everybody knows it needs to happen, it's unaffordable. They won't do it. So actually what some people would say what's the point in changing the prime minister? Now we all understand there is a very good reason for changing the prime minister. He has demonstrated appalling judgment in certain things including of course appointing Peter Mandlesson ambassador to the United States amidst the scandal going on with Germany.
>> And can I jump in and just say next week of course it's the next trunch of emails and messages between Mandlesson and the government and that's going to that's going to just highlight this thing again without >> and that's that's the thing. this scandal will just keep on running and running and every time it does it just highlights that the prime minister has very very poor judgment. So he does in fact deserve to go uh for that alone.
Yeah. Everybody's saying oh well it's going to you know destabilize the party, destabilize the country. Listen, the country is already destabilized and it's happening on his watch. You can't just keep somebody in place because there are no great alternatives. Sometimes there is such a thing as deserving to go. Um and that is the situation that Stalmer finds himself in. But no, the country will continue to lurch from leadership crisis to leadership crisis until it gets a leader with a large enough majority, all of the MPs on side about what needs to be done who has an agenda about actual structural change. I don't believe that that's going to be the Labor Party. Now, does that mean it's going to be reform? Because there are going to be a lot of people listening to this going, "Oh, I know of somebody. I know somebody who could do that." I wouldn't say get ahead of ourselves and think that that could be what happens.
And also we're still some way from that being a possibility. I know that people think that there's going to be some sort of crisis that will usher in an early general election. I don't think these people are going to let go of power if they're dithering over getting rid of star.
What about the bond markets? I saw a comment yesterday. You know that the markets will have to get in line with us with the government. The markets brought down Liz trust. The markets are massively important. Could they not have an impact?
They could have an impact in bringing down the next prime minister perhaps, but not necessarily in forcing a general election. You have to think about that.
That would take the party itself going, "Oh, well, we've had it now. We're going to have to do this to ourselves." Or potentially his majesty the king stepping in, but he's not going to do that. That would cause a constitutional crisis. I don't think he has the gumption for that fight. Even though I do think it's a fight that he'd win, um I don't think that he'd uh he he'd dare do it. So when people say, oh, you know, there's every possibility that there will be a bond market crisis and that that will do it. There is every possibility that there will be a bond market crisis. I don't think that that necessarily means that the Labor Party falls on its sword. And I also think people need to understand it would have to get really bad for for for the party to be forced into calling a new general election. people who are wishing for this may want to be very very cautious about what it is that they're wishing for because it would mean real time probably you know economic crisis for hundreds of thousands of families in this country and actually I don't think that that's a particularly good thing to usher in just in order to get rid of a government >> uh two questions very quickly Bedno stunning performance yesterday right lady at the wrong time quite sad if you think about it >> yeah she is I have to say this actually she is the one leader who continues to rise in my estimations, having started, I think, pretty poorly and from a very low position. She is gradually and very consistently getting better and better.
You're absolutely right. She is the wrong party right right now. And obviously, she was never going to be anything other than a conservative, but she is an excellent performer, an excellent communicator, and she's attached to a party whose brand is toxic. People aren't going to back the Conservatives for a very long time. The question is, does she have the patience to stay the course? So, if she's prepared to be leader and keep losing for the next 10 years until, say, whoever comes next ends up dropping the ball, maybe there's a path to number 10, but it's going to be a really long slog for her.
>> All right, two quick questions. Does Starmer go? And if so, when? Very quickly for me, >> uh, he doesn't go of his own valition. I think there'll have to be a leadership contest and that could take as long as, you know, long as strength depends. Does the party want Bernham to stand? Do they not want Bernham to stand? Is there a way? Is there not a way? So, you know, I think that the de the the decent thing would be set set a timetable to do it today, but he's not going to do
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