Amid PM Modi Visit To Colosseum | Visit Revives Historic Rome Links | NewsX

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[00:00:01]All right, so breaking news coming in former Minister of Climate and the environment of Norway Erik Solheim has put out a social media statement praising Indian democracy referring to a Norwegian journalist heckling at PM Modi during his visit and her questioning press freedom in India. Solheim slated and I quote maybe it's time to pause, maybe it's time to be a bit curious to the world's largest democracy. He further went on to highlight how five Indian states held elections merely a five weeks merely a few weeks ago and how the voter turnout in these states crossed the 90% mark while Norway itself recorded a 62% turnout in the last local elections.

[00:00:41]Uh ending his statement Solheim added that reality is that Indian democracy is both homegrown and extraordinary six extraordinarily successful.

[00:00:52]Ajay Jandial my colleague joins us on the broadcast to talk more about this.

[00:00:56]Ajay uh it there seems to be uh some inward uh looking from uh you know the politicians in Norway about uh you know the kind of episode the Prime Minister had to deal with in front of this reporter.

[00:01:13]Uh pardon me please repeat the question.

[00:01:16]Ajay it seems that Norwegian politicians have had to do some introspection after this uh you know terrible experience that the Indian contingent had uh in in Oslo.

[00:01:32]All right, there seems to be a problem with uh Ajay's connection.

[00:01:38]All right, well Rome wasn't built in a day nor were the ties between India and Italy. The bilateral relations between these two countries began thousands of years ago when ancient India stood connected to some of the most powerful empires of the classical world.

[00:01:51]Two of the world's greatest civilizations connected across thousands of kilometers through trade, culture, diplomacy, and empire.

[00:01:58]As Prime Minister Modi visits Italy and the iconic Colosseum, the spotlight is on a relationship that goes back more than 2,000 years ago.

[00:02:06]The fascinating story of ancient India and ancient Rome.

[00:02:11]Hello and welcome to another episode of News X Explained. My name is Vineet Malhotra and today we take a close look at the extraordinary historic connection between ancient India and ancient Rome, a relationship built centuries before modern diplomacy. When the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea were linked through one of the world's most powerful trade networks.

[00:02:30]Today when Prime Minister Modi visits Italy and walks through the Colosseum, it is not just a modern diplomatic visit. [music] It is also a moment that symbolically reconnects two civilizations that have interacted for over 2,000 years.

[00:02:45]Long before airplanes, long before global summits, and long before the modern nation-states of India and Italy exist, ancient India and the Roman Empire were already engaged in massive trade and cultural exchange.

[00:02:59]The story begins around the 1st century BC and uh the 1st century BCE when the Roman Empire was at its peak. Rome controlled vast territories across Europe, North Africa, and West Asia.

[00:03:12]At the same time, India was home to powerful kingdoms and the flourishing port cities that were connected to global maritime routes.

[00:03:18]The Romans were fascinated by India. To them, India was a land of wealth, spices, luxury, precious stones, exotic animals, fine cotton, and incredible craftsmanship. And India, in turn, became one of Rome's most important trade partners. Ancient trade routes connected the Mediterranean world to the Indian subcontinent. Roman merchants would travel through Egypt, cross the Red Sea, enter the Arabian Sea, and finally reach India's western and southern coasts.

[00:03:47]Ports in present-day Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Gujarat became major centers of international commerce. One of the most important ports was Muziris located in present-day Kerala.

[00:03:57]Historians believe it was one of the biggest global trade hubs of the ancient world. Roman ships arrived at Muziris carrying gold coins, wine, glassware, olive oil, and silverware.

[00:04:09]And what did they take back? Spices, particularly black pepper, which was incredibly valuable in Rome.

[00:04:15]In fact, in the Roman world, Indian pepper was so important that it was often called [music] black gold. India also exported ivory, pearls, gemstones, silk perfumes, [music] fine cotton textiles, and even exotic animals. The demand for Indian goods in Rome was enormous, so enormous that some Roman writers actually started complaining about it. One of them was Pliny the Elder, a famous Roman historian. Pliny complained that Rome was losing massive amounts of gold every year to India because Roman elites were buying too many luxury products from the East.

[00:04:50]He even warned that India, China, and Arabia were draining Rome's wealth.

[00:04:54]There is archaeological evidence to support this.

[00:04:57]Thousands of Roman gold and silver coins have been discovered across South India, particularly in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

[00:05:04]Coins of Roman emperors like Augustus, Tiberius, Nero, >> [music] >> and Trajan have been found in large numbers.

[00:05:12]These discoveries just show just how extensive the India-Rome trade network really was.

[00:05:17]And [music] this trade was made possible by a major maritime breakthrough, the discovery of the monsoon wind system.

[00:05:23]Ancient sailors learned that the seasonal winds of the Indian Ocean could help them same sail directly between the Red Sea [music] and India much faster.

[00:05:31]This transform This transformed maritime trade. It allowed Roman ships to travel to India more regularly, more safely, and in much larger numbers.

[00:05:43]In many ways, the Indian Ocean became the ancient [music] world's version of a global trade superhighway.

[00:05:49]One of the most important historical records of this period is a text called the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, written by an ancient Greek merchant. The text describes India's ports, >> [music] >> trade practices, goods, shipping routes, and marketplace in extraordinary detail.

[00:06:06]It shows that India was not an isolated civilization. It was a central player in global trade more than 2,000 years ago.

[00:06:13]But the India-Rome connection were not just about money or commerce. It also created a cultural exchange between the two civilizations.

[00:06:21]Roman pottery, glassware, and ceramics have been found in Indian archaeological sites, while Indian goods and designs became popular inside the Roman world.

[00:06:29]Indian ivory was used in Roman art, Indian textiles were considered luxury products, and Indian spices became an essential part of Roman elite life. Some historians even believe that artistic and sculptural influences traveled between the two civilizations through these trade networks.

[00:06:47]There are also references to diplomatic contacts. Historical accounts suggest that Indian envoys may have visited the court of Roman Emperor Augustus.

[00:06:55]This is extremely significant because it shows that ancient India was engaging with global powers through diplomacy and statecraft even in the classical era.

[00:07:04]Now, fast forward to today as Prime Minister Modi visited the Colosseum, the symbol of Imperial Rome, the moment carries deep historical and civilizational meaning. The Colosseum is one of the greatest engineering achievements of the ancient world, built nearly 2,000 years ago. It represented the power, scale, and the ambition of the Roman Empire. And [music] during that same period, Rome was connected to India through massive oceanic trade routes. So, in many ways, the Modi visit also symbolically reconnects two of human history's oldest continuous civilizations. It also highlights something very important, India's global connections are not new. India has been a major civilizational and economic force. Today India and Italy are are building a modern strategic partnership from defense, technology, energy, from trade, cultural diplomacy, the relationship is expanding rapidly. The partnership is unique. It also rests on deep historical foundation, a foundation built over thousands of thousands of years. And when the Romans came in search for spices and wealth, then the Indian ports were connected to the Eastern world, to the Mediterranean. And when two great civilizations discovered each other through trade, culture, and human exchange. We're going to talk about this with our guest joining us on the show at this point in time, on top of the show, is Mr. Abhijit Chavda, historian.

[00:08:21]Abhijit, pleasure having you back here again and good to see you. Well, what do you make of, you know, this proximity and this new found bonhomie between India and Italy? Of course, back in the days, it was the Roman Empire. You know, of course, a lot of folklore, a lot of classic text pertaining to, you know, Julius Caesar, or Augustus, and some of the other leaders like Nero, even Caligula, have, you know, been a thing that Indians have admired and appreciated. But what what is so unique to you about the association between these two great civilizations?

[00:09:01]Good evening and it's a great to be back. So, India and Rome, like you explained very well, we have an ancient relationship. The Indian relationship with the Mediterranean world goes back four, perhaps 5,000 years. And the India-Rome relationship crystallizes approximately around 30 BC when the first Emperor Augustus conquers and annexes Egypt into the Roman Empire. So, that's when India and Rome started, you know, having these proper, robust trade relationship. India would export export copious quantities of luxury items uh to Rome, and Rome would send back massive amounts of gold and silver to India. So, we have to understand that at that time India was the world's largest economy. India's economy dwarfed that of the Roman Empire at the peak of the Roman Empire. And India had so much that it had to offer to the world unique items that came from nowhere else but India and that's why India enjoyed this massive trade surplus with Rome. So, we are now re-establishing excellent relations with the the successor successor, let's say of the Roman Empire, which is Italy.

[00:10:07]Uh and that's a relationship that's very old. So, for example, in 2024, India signed a defense agreement with Greece.

[00:10:14]So, that is merely the re-establishment of uh uh defense relations between India and Greece after 2,327 years. So, our history goes back these many years. It goes back centuries. It goes back millennia. So, we had, like you say, like you explained, a very good uh relationship with Rome. We had diplomatic relations, but mostly it was a trade relationship. If you look at the map of the world and see where Roman coins are found, you will see that Roman coins are found in the Mediterranean region, in West Asia, which was occupied by Rome, and in the Indian subcontinent, not that much in China or Arabia. So, India was the major trading partner of Rome. And you find these Roman coins and other artifacts not just in peninsular India, on the west coast, on the east coast, but also in northwestern India, which is currently uh the temporary nation of Pakistan and uh Gandhara, you find that the coins over there, which means that you had uh various Indian empires that engaged in trade with Rome.

[00:11:12]Uh you could say the the remnants of the Mauryan Empire, then the Mahakshatrapas, the Western Satraps, then you have the Great Kushan Empire that, you know, took Indian trade uh Eurasian-wise into Central Asia and into Eurasia. Then we have the Gupta Empire. We also have various uh southern Indian kingdoms uh both on both coasts, like you said, Kerala, Muziris, also lots of ports in presently Tamil Nadu, where you find all these artifacts. So, it's a very ancient, very robust relationship that we had with Rome, and it is fantastic to see that we are re-establishing very cordial, very warm, very friendly, and mutually beneficial relations with Italy. I think Italy is a wonderful country, a great It has the legacy of a great empire, of a great culture, uh, the motherland of the Roman, uh, culture was Greece, and with Greece also we have very ancient relations that that predate our relations with Rome. So, overall it's fantastic to to see this, and it's great to see the two leaders getting along getting along so well, uh, and one just hopes that we take this relationship forward, and we see it reach from strength to strength.

[00:12:17]Abhijeet, there was also a mention in my opening monologue about, uh, how Indians also attended the court of, uh, Augustus. How would you describe India's outreach to the rest of the world during those days? Because obviously now at this point in time, uh, India's, uh, still spreading a lot of, uh, uh, you know, Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam. Do you think back then also India went out and, uh, sought friendships?

[00:12:43]India went out and sought friendships and good relations with everybody. We had excellent robust relations with Mesopotamia, which is essentially our neighboring region, and Persia, which are our cousins, ethnically, also with Egypt, also with the Mediterranean world. And like you said, we had embassies that went to the court of Augustus. We had, uh, probably a Pandian king who sent, uh, an ambassador to Augustus. We also had, uh, other, uh, delegations that would come there, including gymnosophists, which means, uh, philosophers, right? And India went out, uh, and established established these relationships as an extremely, uh, self-confident, uh, entity, as a civilizational entity. India was the largest, uh, economy in the world. It was essentially from If you look at it from the perspective of those days, India was the superpower, India was the major power in the world. Rome actually dwarfed India when it come I mean India actually dwarfed Rome when it come when it comes to the size of the economy. So, India was very confident. India went out everywhere. We had great relations with everybody. And we need to take a few pages out of the books of history and you know, conduct our diplomacy and geopolitics today along those lines.

[00:13:50]Mhm.

[00:13:51]And Abhijit, what do you think of this relationship as it stands today? What do these two great nations have to give at each other? Have to give each other in considering the fact that you know, the civilizations are as you know, equal ancient as ever.

[00:14:06]But in this modern day with the Colosseum there and the Taj Mahal here, what can these two nations give each other?

[00:14:14]Well, Italy is a fully developed nation, a fully industrialized nation. It has many mature industries. It has arms industries. It has other industries. And India is a massive market. So, Italy Italy will certainly benefit from its trade relationship with India.

[00:14:29]We could also look into a potentially a defense relationship.

[00:14:34]Um maybe we can send each other something or the other, you know, perhaps see, we have the world's best battle battle tested air defense system.

[00:14:43]If Italy needs that, we can look into that.

[00:14:45]The Italians make a lot of high quality helicopters and what not and other defense equipment. Maybe we can import some of that. So, that's one angle we can look into. Also, non-defense when it comes to Indian exports, we export textiles, we export generic drugs. We have the best IT sector in the world.

[00:15:01]That's something we can offer to Italy.

[00:15:03]So, I think there's a there's plenty of sectors and fields in which we can look into the relationship and there's plenty that we can offer to each other.

[00:15:10]Overall, the relationship as always has to be a mutually beneficial one. And now it's it's great to see that we are going along you know, in the relationship along those lines. Mhm. Abhijit, I also want to get uh your opinion on uh you know, some of these uh uh incidents that have happened in the last couple of days, especially that cartoon of uh the Prime Minister, which was uh put out by a Norwegian newspaper, calling him a snake charmer.

[00:15:36]Uh why do you think the West is still carrying uh these optics and images about us?

[00:15:42]Well, uh it's unfortunate, but it is not surprising. Uh you see, when you are the uh the hegemon for the past 500 years, the West is you could say Western Europe is one block, one entity overall, which considers itself to be the so-called Western civilization, and they have ruled the world and uh depredated the world over the past five centuries or so. And you know, they they feel uncomfortable when older civilizations uh start emerging once again, right? And that's why they they try their best to put us down in the hope that this will dent our self-confidence. And a lot of this has to do with the relationship between India and the US as well, because uh you know, Western Europe is essentially ruled or controlled by the United States. So, uh the US approach towards India the past few years, four years or so, has not been very friendly ever since the special military operation began in 2022. And you will see that these cartoons and these editorials uh come out from time to time in the West, putting down India, disparaging India in very you know, in various ways. And you had the incident of that uh so-called journalist who tried hack- heckling Prime Minister Modi. So, my perspective is that we need to you know, not be surprised about this, and we don't need to give too much importance to these people. Uh they don't really matter in the long run. Uh in the at the end of the day, in the long term, who's going to remember the journalist? But people will remember Prime Minister Modi. So, it's not uh that big of a deal. We should just laugh it off and brush it off, but it is no surprise that this is happening.

[00:17:14]Abhijit, always a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for those insights.

[00:17:19]Also joining in on this conversation is Professor Anshu Joshi, international affairs expert. Mr. Utpal Kaul, historian, also joins us on the show.

[00:17:26]Mr. Kaul, always a pleasure having you, sir. So, what what's your impression of these two great civilizations, uh you know, coming back together in the way they have been, defined by uh either the chemistry between Prime Minister Modi and Giorgia Meloni. Uh this is obviously great optics, uh but according to you, does this translate uh to a lot of bilateral benefit on the ground?

[00:17:52]Uh if you allow me, I want to speak 2 minutes about the Norway incident. Sure, sir.

[00:18:01]You see, I am working with Norwegians for last 40 years.

[00:18:06]And thousands of Norwegians know my name, know me by person.

[00:18:12]And I must have given nearly 500 lectures to Norwegians about India, about Indian culture. And I tell you how much Norwegians love, respect our Indian civilization, our culture, and they understand how much we have we are advanced in IT sector, and how much we have progressed in last um 30 years, 40 years, and especially last 10 years. It's amazing.

[00:18:43]But there are some sections in Europe, in US, who always advertise it India that Indians are snake charmers and we organized sometimes school children coming from Europe to India and see how India is, how our culture, how our civilization is, how our schools are, our how our hostels are and they are amazed. I was heading one delegation from Scandinavian country Norway, Sweden and Denmark. These were the 25 chairmans of different hospitals and they were amazed to see the All India Institute of Medical Sciences and different hospitals in like Apollo, Max and other hospitals in India and especially in Delhi. I took them to Bangalore to see the Wipro and Infosys and they were amazed and the chairman of the hospitals board told me if my mother will be ill, I will recommend her to go to India. And that is the way the most of the Norwegians, Scandinavians look at India. But there is a one lobby.

[00:19:57]They want to show the superiority of European superiority and they have false ego. And that was this so-called journalist. She had only 1,300 followers on X and she got 3 million likes. And so we have our own bad mouth people here in India. They are very happy and it was no question. She just cried and so she got 2 minutes advertisement.

[00:20:31]And so I am not worried because I know Scandinavian people very closely and I know how much they respect and have great idea about India. Coming to Italy as you were you have discussed the in a detail and Abhijit also said about how we were closely associated for more than 3,000, 4,000 years back and I tell you that after the Greece or what we call Greek, It was the Rome.

[00:21:09]Rome was super power in Europe for almost 1,000 years.

[00:21:15]So, when they as he said when they they annexed Egypt also, we started becoming very very close. And there were as Iqbal and others also mentioned that the Roman civilization, the Greek civilization, Egyptian civilization, they have gone. But this Indian civilization is still there. We are active. And I have to tell you, we have to understand what India was. India at that time was India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, up to Sri Lanka, and up to Burma. And even a little bit of Central Asia you can put. It was a huge huge one of the biggest countries what we call as Indian subcontinent. So, we had almost everything. And Indians have so much of love for gold and silver. So, we were giving lot many things and especially from Kerala who were supplying spices. And these Europeans, Romans, and other Europeans, they had not seen that. They knew only that the salt and this red chilies and green chilies and few spices. And as Amjad also said, when they saw the black pepper, the black pepper was at the rate of gold. It was like a gold.

[00:22:38]And when the suppliers would come, it would be army would be like the safeguard. They they were security guard.

[00:22:47]Army was the security guard for the black pepper. That was the importance of those spices in Rome in in Italy. But I tell you, coming to now, we have very very close relation with Italy and I may tell you there are hundreds of scholars who have studied Sanskrit and they have written books on the Bhagavad Gita. They have translated Vedas in Italy. They have translated even I mean all those Kashmir Shaivism.

[00:23:21]Even Rajatarangini they have translated in Italian. So, there's a lot of understanding of Indian culture and civilization which is translated in Italian and Italian scholars know about India. And Modi ji was presented with a series >> Right, sir. So, we we we have a positive of time. I also want to get in Professor Anshu Joshi into this conversation.

[00:23:45]Professor Anshu uh ma'am, what do you think of India's growing, evolving, uh you know, going from strength to strength relationship uh with Italy and also considering that both of these nations uh bring in a lot of pedigree from the past as well.

[00:24:04]Indeed, uh Vineet, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me on this show and giving me this opportunity to speak on this very relevant topic.

[00:24:13]Indeed, we can see a great momentum between the two nations and uh in past couple of years we have seen that how India has shifted from optics-based bilateral relations to tangible outcomes-based bilateral relations and that's where we have been enjoying a special strategic partnership with Italy now and this partnership the pillars, they are strongly rooted in the ancient relations, the civilizational connects that uh we both had uh since over 2,000 years and uh driven by primarily the maritime spice route and the trade wherein a booming trade network was present between the two nations. Italian ports were a part of the ancient spice route wherein India was a spice sender country. So, Romans sent gold, silver, coral, and wine to India, wherein India uh sent spices, textiles, and precious gems to Italy on the other hand. We always had cultural and linguistic links also, wherein culturally the Romans called us India, and we called Romans Romaka. So, there is a mention in literatures of both the countries of our culture and our civilizational connects, and we could also see various travelers from Marco Polo to Niccolò de Conti coming to India, sharing linguistic philosophy legacy of their country with our country, and so on. And on these pillars now, we can see that the optics have been already translated into a great strategic partnership, wherein there is a strategic focus on emerging technologies, novice technologies like AI in the area of defense and security.

[00:25:48]There is a joint action plan, strategic action plan that has been announced from 2025 to 2029.

[00:25:55]It's a blueprint to guide both the countries to collaborate in the area of defense, trade, space collaboration, and AI development. And then there is a dialogue also which has been started among the foreign ministers and their officials between the two nations. And then we can also see a great trade target that both the countries have taken. The trade has bilateral trade now would be elevated from the present 14 billion euro to 25 billion euro by 2029. And it would be certainly helped by the present EU-India free trade agreement. So, there is a synergy in the relations. We can see a great future.

[00:26:34]It's not about optics, Vinit. It's about a tangible outcome that we are drawing.

[00:26:38]>> You're quite right. Thank you so much.

[00:26:40]Appreciate everybody who joined in, and