Alan Milburn: Britain Risks A Generation Trapped On Benefits | Jeremy Vine

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[00:00:00]First is labor failing young people.

[00:00:02]Call us now. Youth unemployment is on the rise as a damning new report has made clear the former health secretary Alan Milburn says Britain will have a lost generation without urgent action.

[00:00:12]So Milbour a big ally of Blair who we were talking about a moment ago and his focus is what we would call the needs.

[00:00:19]So this is not in education, employment or training ne.

[00:00:25]And it's become a real thing. is this a word we didn't really use 20 25 years ago but it's now become like a label that gets attached to these young people and the trouble is the danger is because they haven't got any work history that then becomes a permanent state and they're queued up for years maybe even a life on benefits. So Alan Milb is trying to work out what's going on. Here's his office here. There he is. As I say, Blair, right? Blair's in the news for criticizing Starmmer. And in a way, this is a critique of of Labour and Starmmer as well because they're not, he thinks, doing enough. And he's doing a warning.

[00:01:00]Let's have a look at what comes out of his typewriter here. So, he's giving us a warning about the numbers. And the numbers are really, really startling.

[00:01:07]One in eight young people classed as a neat between October to December 2025.

[00:01:13]So, about a year ago, uh, or slightly less, 957,000. nearly a million needs.

[00:01:19]He says then five years time one and a quarter million. So a big increase in needs. He says the unemployment rate for 16 to 24s is 16.2%.

[00:01:30]That is now very high, the highest since 2014. General unemployment is much lower, three times smaller at 5%. So something's going wrong for young people. More than half of the needs have given up looking for work. They're not it's thinking they're ever going to be employed. And for every pound spent on employment support for young people, about 25 pounds is spent on benefits. So he clearly wants something to be done to get them into work. And it's a bad bad situation as as Elton John sang Dawn and it's getting worse.

[00:02:05]It is. But but what we have to do is tackle it. Right. When I was in government, I was in Gordon Brown's government. I was the minister for young citizens and youth engagement and we had we invested so much money in young people and youth services and we had like a low level of needs and unemployment. Then we had a coalition government the Tories and the Lib Dems.

[00:02:29]They scrapped that position.

[00:02:30]>> We had the financial crisis which destroyed the country's finances.

[00:02:33]>> So, so now we're going to have to reinvest and that's what this government's doing. Uh they've invested 1.5 billion pounds into uh youth um unemployment to get young people working again. They're offering like 2,000 pounds to young people who take off jobs. They're saying that every young person will get an offer of either a job or an apprenticeship. You know, this is real investment.

[00:02:57]No, no. I I think we're all fooling ourselves. You know, all Milbour, former Labour minister, very hard-hitting report. the one that says£25 is spent on benefits for each young person against one pound on trying to find them or create a job. But it all comes down to Rachel Reeves and her policies as chancellor. She's made young people virtually unemployable in this country.

[00:03:20]Talk to anybody who runs a business in hospitality, a pub, a restaurant, a racecourse meeting. They cannot employ young people anymore because the minimum wage. because of the minimum wage, because of the increase in national insurance, why would you employ somebody as young as 18 or 19 when you're paying the same taxes on them for a person of 24 or 25? I know from pubs I go to from restaurants, you talk to anybody who runs a business, I'm sorry, the door is closed to young people because they are simply too expensive to employ in this country. And Dawn, if you were a former minister in that area, you surely can't disagree that the the the conditions for the employment of teenagers is just not there in this country. I had a job and had one ever since.

[00:04:08]>> But yeah, you can't dawn you. That's the thing. You can't go to the local news agent and say, "Can I be a paper boy?"

[00:04:14]Well, no one reads newspapers anymore, but they get it all online. But even if they did, if you want to undercut the other paper boys, which you should be able to do, you should be able to say, "I'll do a round for five pounds just to get some experience." You're not allowed to do that.

[00:04:27]>> So, um, yes, there are those entry-level jobs for young people that are not there anymore, a lot of them, but exploiting young people, it was not the answer to the problem, right? having young people cuz you know young people if they're not living at home um you know they're paying rent they deserve to be paid a rate for a job that everybody else is being paid but there's no job if you like that's my leftwing credentials as a trade union trade union right she you can't let employers use young people to undercut existing staff >> of course you can't but there were rules and regulations around even before Rachel Reef decided to up the ante to the employer >> there were variations in but there safe children when I mean you're talking as though we still put people up chimneys you know children up chimneys in this country there were there were there were regulations about how much you had to pay young people and then young people could get a job now the regulations have been pushed so high in tax I don't know if Dawn agrees do you agree that a 17-year-old on the minimum wage should be paid as much as a 22y old on the minimum wage >> I think that it's about fairness right if that 17y old Yes. I think I think people should because they're trying to equalize >> people. Yes. People should be paid a rate for the job.

[00:05:47]>> Yeah. But there's no job. There's no job. That's the thing. So the the 17-year-old is is getting a higher minimum wage. I understand that's the policy. But the unintended consequence is that the employer says, "Well, I might as well take the 25-y old."

[00:05:59]>> Exactly. There is the 22y old, right, can run the bar cuz they've been there for 5 years. The 17year-old can't, but you're expected to pay them the same rate to stand behind the bar for 10 hours and serve customers. How long will it take the 17y old to develop the skills to run a bar?

[00:06:16]>> Two or 3 years?

[00:06:18]>> So, so, but you're saying it's only 5 year old, so that's 8 years, right? So, you're saying that that 17y old, you're you're But 17 to 25 is 8 years, right?

[00:06:27]So, you're saying that that 17y old should be underpaid for 8 years. No, what I'm saying is in any industry, if you're in a training capacity and you're learning, then the cost of being given those new skills means you should not be paid as much as the person who's got the skills.

[00:06:43]>> If you're if you're doing an apprenticeship with this, which >> we don't have apprenticeships anymore, >> but we do. We have 200,000. This government made the announcement. We have 200,000. I don't see them on the slide.

[00:06:54]>> Well, yeah, but you won't see.

[00:06:55]>> They can still There are things you can can't see which still exist, Mike. Like the wind. I don't see I don't see apprenticeships advertised all over the place. You know, come here, be the issue. A lot of people who run apprenticeships say they get a young person in and they're so shocked by having to work, they don't come back the next day. They're so shocked by work.

[00:07:15]>> Well, Paul, >> hi Paul.

[00:07:19]>> Good morning, Jeremy.

[00:07:20]>> What do you think? Who's done this thing with young people are really being hung out to dry here?

[00:07:26]Well, I've just listened to Dawn Butler and I've never heard so much nonsense in all my life. This is just typical Labor narratives all over again. I had to shut my business down. I had to All I had was a small little cafe in Kent and I closed it down because I couldn't afford to keep paying the bills or the kids that I employed. I put a job vacancy out just for someone to come in and help on a couple of days a week. I got 74 applicants. Most of them were like 15, 16, 17, 18. And I'm sorry, Dawn, you're talking rubbish. You shouldn't be paying a 17y old the same rate as someone who is 25. It shouldn't happen.

[00:08:06]>> That's the issue. I wonder whether Paul, in defense of Labor, I wonder whether they they saw this coming. It's possible he didn't think about it.

[00:08:13]>> But of course, didn't think about they didn't think about a lot of things.

[00:08:18]>> What have they done?

[00:08:19]>> I'm sorry you had to close your business, Paul. Um, so are you saying that because you couldn't how much were you paying people? And is is it because you had to pay is it because you had to pay them more money then you had to close your business. Was that the same reason?

[00:08:33]>> I had to pay I had to pay one lad who was 17 exactly the same amount of money as somebody who was 62. And I couldn't afford to pay the wages. It wasn't just the wages. It was to clump on the national insurance. It was to clump on the hike of the pensions contributions.

[00:08:49]It was NIC3. It was the fact of the cafe. I have to charge everybody 20% VAT, but I don't claim VAT back because there's no VAT on food.

[00:08:59]>> Out of interest, one of the things big time, >> Paul, when you pay the 17-year-old the same as the 62y old, my understanding is the other thing that happens is the 62y old asks you for a pay rise. Is that right?

[00:09:12]>> Absolutely, 100%.

[00:09:14]>> That's all of this seems to be.

[00:09:17]>> Absolutely. And it's the same as going into a supermarket. You get to the till with a bottle of booze and as a 17year-old sitting there, she can't serve you that booze until she gets the permission from a manager.

[00:09:26]>> Well, you have to. Last time it happened to me, I had to wait sit around waiting for her birthday. Thanks, Paul. After the break, we're taking more of your calls on whether labor is failing young people. 0207862.

[00:09:38]See you very shortly.

[00:09:43]Before the wait, we asked which animals were launched into space in 1991 to study gravity. mice, jellyfish, salamanders. The jellyfish were Yeah. Something very sad here. It says they became they picked jellyfish, two and a half thousand of them because although they lack a brain, they have neurons and gravity receptors, but it doesn't say whether they came back alive. Did they put them in water?

[00:10:16]>> YEAH, THEY SURVIVE IN WATER, RIGHT? I mean, >> well, you'd hope so.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah, these two and a half thousand.

[00:10:22]>> When I said something very sad, I read they picked jellyfish as they pickled jellyfish. So, I was I misread it. Okay.

[00:10:29]Later, we're asking if Trump is too old to be president. He's turning 80 in two weeks. No signs of him slowing down. But now, we're asking if Labor is failing young people. 1.25 million could be out of work within the next 5 years. The so-called needs. They're not in education, employment, or training. So they may well feel that we the rest of us have have let them down. Irene is in ash. Hello Irene.

[00:10:52]>> Hello.

[00:10:53]>> What do you think of what's going on? Is is there a crisis here?

[00:10:57]>> Definitely. And it's not just the labor.

[00:11:00]It's the full government that's letting the children down.

[00:11:03]>> Uhhuh. What should be done, do you think, Irene?

[00:11:06]>> More apprenticeships. They don't need to get a adults wage. More apprenticeships.

[00:11:12]bring youth training schemes back.

[00:11:14]That's my opinion. My granddaughter's mental health suffers through not get the job. She's traveled 20 odd miles for interviews. She's traveled out of town for interviews. And because she lives in a rural area, they are with can you travel in Scotland between the age of five and 22. They have free bus passes.

[00:11:36]Of course, my granddaughter can travel.

[00:11:37]She has traveled everywhere for interviews.

[00:11:40]>> Yeah. It sounds like she really wants a job bad. Has she got one yet, Irene, or not?

[00:11:46]>> No, she hasn't. No, she hasn't. She's been for about 11 12 interviews since she left the school in December and they keep Oh, she goes mild and they say, "No, you can't. Can you travel?"

[00:11:59]"Yes, I can travel. Okay, we'll get back to you." She went for an apprenticeship in a dental in the next town and was told somebody would get back to her within a couple of days. She never heard a thing. Nobody's interested.

[00:12:13]>> Thank I spoke to somebody yesterday who got a job in computer science which he studied at university for. 500 applications. Yeah. And I think actually when you when he says that to the >> prospective employer either they think we're not employing you because you've been turned down 500 times or they think no this is the guy we need.

[00:12:28]>> Yeah. I I agree.

[00:12:30]>> 500.

[00:12:30]>> Done talking about apprenticeships before. We used to have apprenticeship classes in things called polytechnics and technical colleges. And I think I'm right in saying John Major was the first prime minister to decide to start turning technical colleges and polytech into universities which was then picked up big by um Tony Blair and since then nobody teaches how to lay bricks or mend pipes or drive lorries or become an electrician and that's what we've lost.

[00:12:57]>> Well maybe the polies should be brought back.

[00:12:59]>> Well well they should. Have you ever met an unemployed plumber? Cuz I haven't.

[00:13:02]No. and and and those are the skills which are in demand and we should cater for them.

[00:13:07]>> Yeah. David in Cumbria. Hi.

[00:13:11]>> Hi David.

[00:13:14]>> All right.

[00:13:14]>> Hello.

[00:13:15]>> Oh, sorry. Did we disturb you? Sorry.

[00:13:17]How you doing?

[00:13:19]>> You said Cumbria. I'm Northamptonshire.

[00:13:24]>> We got I've just been told there are two Davids. So, you must be the other David.

[00:13:28]But well done >> for stepping in. The D Cumbria David is now raging.

[00:13:34]>> What do you want to say David in North Hampshire?

[00:13:37]>> Yes. One thing I never hear said is that the uh city of London, that is the investment bankers have not invested in technology and they have been selling off every British company they possibly can. Now when I was a boy, uh I was growing up just after the Second World War and we were making things. We were building ships like there was no tomorrow. We had a huge merchant navy and I went into the merchant navy and um uh with the building um thousands of men were building the ships, people were building aircraft.

[00:14:26]The way the world has gone is that we now pay cheaper wages to the Chinese and others to build stuff and even it's even steel and bridges and ships. Everything David and when I was a kid they everything said made in China but now everything every single thing everything I'm wearing is probably made in China. I don't know whether it's something we could have stopped.

[00:14:50]>> Wait a minute. No, you say I do object to people like you saying everything.

[00:14:57]Now, where are these cruise liners being built? Not in China. They're being built in Italy.

[00:15:04]>> Well, I think Germany. I think Germany.

[00:15:06]You're right. Okay, fair enough. That must be expensive.

[00:15:09]>> Lots of things are being built. And uh Japan. Oh, yes. Japan's wages are higher than ours. But um No, this technology.

[00:15:20]I'll ask you one question um about in the 20th century.

[00:15:26]>> Yes sir.

[00:15:26]>> One British ship was the biggest ship in the world and it was the fastest merchant ship in the world. Something to be proud of. What was its name?

[00:15:37]>> It was the QE2.

[00:15:40]>> No.

[00:15:40]>> What was it called?

[00:15:42]>> It was the ship that >> was it called Moritania.

[00:15:46]>> Moritania that was blown up.

[00:15:48]>> Yeah. It was sunk.

[00:15:49]>> It was sunk, wasn't it?

[00:15:53]>> You You're not speaking to your phone anymore, but thank you. It was a great call. The other David is now has calmed down and is on the air. Hello, David in Cambria.

[00:16:01]>> Hi. Hi, Jeremy. I know I'm not I'm not uncomm. You'll be pleased to know. I I agree with I agree with Mike on some things. Basically, young people are unemployable at the moment because of the NI and the change in the employment law. But the one thing where Dawn would have a point is if private businesses, if you're full-time employee, you should not be claiming benefit. And I would have been horrified if I'd have had people claiming benefit when I was employing people because you should be paying them enough >> that they don't need to. And that would save billions on the welfare.

[00:16:42]>> Yeah. you but you can as a business owner, you just pay whatever you have to pay within the law to get someone to do a good job, right? You're not you're not interested in cutting any slack under the benefits.

[00:16:53]>> But isn't David right? Didn't Gordon Brown uh introduce the tax credit system where the government paid part of the wages to companies to encourage them to take people on. But in the end that system got misbalanced and the companies were actually saving money on employees which the government were paying. They were subsidizing work.

[00:17:13]>> Well, anything you do to create that situation will the companies will think, "Oh, we could take advantage that we pay people less because they know the government will top it up." Exactly.

[00:17:21]It's not easy. It's not easy to run this country. D. That's what we're coming to.

[00:17:25]>> Exactly. That's the thing. We are coming to the point where well, it isn't easy.

[00:17:28]So, what can we do?

[00:17:29]>> We'll just butt out of it. But out of it, >> but let's see what we can do. And Irene, she was talking, was it her daughter?

[00:17:36]>> Her daughter. Well, you know, the government's saying that every young person now will have a jobs guarantee.

[00:17:40]We've got a jobs guarantee scheme. So, they'll either get a job or they'll get an an apprenticeship. And I'm really sorry that people are not responding and we have to find a way as well to bring that humanity back into the >> I wonder whether they just think that Labor >> with respect make promises that don't then happen like for example the 2 and a half million homes which apparently aren't going to get built and stuff like that. I don't know. Do they not trust what Labor is saying?

[00:18:04]>> No, I don't think it's that. I think the 2 and a2 million homes, we do have a shortage right now of people to do the work, the plumbers, the builders. So, we do need to invest in getting people trained up because that is the ambition and yeah, so you can't say we will build two and a half million.

[00:18:24]>> You can't say it's not going to be delivered until we get to that point. At the moment, it is an ambition. And it is an aspiration and we're doing what we can to work towards that. And so is Sadi the >> Can I just raise another point we haven't hit on yet? Health and disability benefits have doubled amongst young people in the last 3 years. Now that to me means they've brought the bar down so low to qualify for health disability usually mental health. It's too easy isn't it to sign off with a mental health issue which is very difficult. It can be long term >> and sorry >> it could be long term >> and big long term. Absolutely.

[00:19:00]>> The thing well the thing is Mike is that co had a role to play in this as well and young people being locked up and not being able to socialize and we shouldn't really talk about mental health in a way that makes people feel guilty for not being uh mentally well.

[00:19:18]>> I agree but what we got we got to take our break otherwise I'd love to continue that. Thank you so much both of you and all our callers. Later, we'll ask if Trump is too old to be president. He says he's in perfect health and he's aced all his tests. After the break, our striking doctors ruining the NHS.

[00:19:34]They're walking out again. Did you have sympathy when they announced their latest strike? They do work in tough conditions. 0207862.

[00:19:42]We'll see you in a moment.