This analysis masterfully deconstructs the invisible architecture of psychological imprisonment, exposing how the systematic erosion of autonomy inevitably leads to tragedy. It moves beyond sensationalism to provide a chillingly precise autopsy of domestic tyranny.
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a secret relationship. A 14-year-old girl is threatened and then murdered.
And the question is, was a possible pregnancy part of the motive? And was this all just part of a really horrible relationship involving coercive control?
>> Welcome to the global phenomenon, Surviving the Survivor. Here's your host, Emmy award-winning journalist Joel Waldman.
What's up, SCS nation? Welcome to the global phenomenon, surviving the survivor, bringing you the very best guests in all of true crime. We do it five days a week, Monday through Thursday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern time with the best guests in true crime. Friday is Karm. Sound the Karm. She will be here this Friday for the sentencing of Brendan Banfield uh in the so-called Opair uh murder, the love triangle. We will have that for you Friday. Um, this case, David, uh, is a horrific case and I'm going to give you a little backgrounder on it. But first, I'm going to bring you in the best guest for tonight. Dr. Christine Coacholo comes to us from the great state of Connecticut.
She is an expert in coercive control.
That is her focus. And you've got the ever dapper John Day. Dapper Day, uh, criminal defense attorney out of Santa Fe, New Mexico. and coming to us uh from the home of David uh not his real home.
He was from Houston but he was living and working uh in Los Angeles as does Dr. Ilico Tibbori. She is a forensic psychologist uh here to break down help us break down the psychological aspect uh of this case. Um just taking a half step back. Authorities are now saying uh John Day that uh Celeste was likely murdered on April 23rd of 2025.
all her cellular activity stops that day. Uh and then you have to fast forward from April 23rd all the way to September 8th. Uh for those who do who do not know the case, uh it's on that day that uh the car um is impounded, I believe. And a couple days later, uh that someone notices a foul odor coming from the frunk of David's Tesla. Uh and as they say, the rest is history. uh Celeste little dismembered body found in that frunk of the details almost too much to bear uh after the fact. But uh John Day, I know uh you have a a sort of a personal interest in this with you know your sister having been a victim of a horrific sex crime. Uh that's why you became an attorney. So kudos to you uh on doing that. um when you hear that all her cell phone activity ceased on April 23rd and sort of the mountain of evidence, some of which we'll go through tonight, but we're really f focusing on the psychological angle. But when you hear this mountain of evidence, um how airtight is this prosecution case in your opinion? That's the job you once held.
>> Well, we know the district attorney has was it 40 terabytes of discovery to turn over to the defense. It's going to come down to a digital so-called paper trail.
It really is. It's going to be, you know, her phone uh location, GPS, um everything that's in the phone leading up to that. I mean, apparently there is there's a just a wealth of communication between them. Um and that's how this case is going to be made. It's going to be based on the digital uh the digital background, the digital file, and you know, just tragic. This poor little girl, young girl, he met when she was 11. I mean, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.
>> Yeah. They meet at 11. Uh she's gone at 14. Um just horrific. Uh horror for any parent. Uh unfortunately, it is reality.
Uh the family uh through their attorney basically said, "We're not going to be able to speak. Uh they're they're too understandably devastated by what happened." Uh Dr. Christine Coachiola is an expert in coercive control. Uh, the term gets thrown around within the true crime community, Christine, but a lot of people don't know what it is. So, what is coercive control?
>> I appreciate you asking that because a lot of people are kind of a little bit off the mark sometimes. They people think coercive control is hidden abuse and that's one factor of course of control. Course of control is the underpinning of abuse. Most abuse is about someone having power over you, exerting power and control over you. And in that they take away your liberty.
They certainly compromise your agency in life, your ability to know what you should know. Who's the perfect prey for this, by the way? A child. Someone who isn't quite developed in understanding what's like healthy and unhealthy, right? We don't teach young people anyway, healthy and unhealthy relationship dynamics. So, you take a person who has more power, they're going to come in and they're going to exert that power over someone. And sometimes that power doesn't feel bad. By the way, what we know is that in in the UK they've criminalized course of control and love bombing is under the crown as one of the aspects of criminalized coercive control. Sometimes it feels good. Sometimes the the ability to have someone just truly act like they love you is enough. And they lure their victims. It's a grooming tactic. I always say not all course of controllers are pedophiles, but all pedophiles are exerting the same exact tactics. It's a psychological warfare. It is a again a diminishing of our agency of what we would most likely know, but certainly not an 11-year-old or a 14-year-old would know to determine if something is harmful or not harmful. So, you know, the moment age becomes a factor, the moment that fame, fortune, never mind.
It can happen of course in relationships that there's not that going on, but you add that, the complexities are are humongous. They really are.
>> Uh Janet TR straighten me out a little bit. Celeste was murdered on 423. That's when the uh cell phone uh data stops.
Dismembered on May 5th, car towed then on September 5th. Her body was discovered on 98, but uh body was sitting uh in that hot car uh in the Los Angeles sun for many months. Um Dr. Aliko Tabori, just to round out uh Dr. Coachola, I mean, if someone's asked you, which I'm about to do, what what is the difference between just um you know, a bad relationship um or dysfunctional relationship as compared with a relationship that involves coercive control? Uh what's the answer? Where does where do they diverge and where do they converge? I >> think it has a lot to do with power dynamics. So, you had, you know, one person who was older and more powerful.
Um, I I hesitate to use the term more mature because I I don't really think that in this case, but um he definitely was older and he was controlling um everything um that this young girl was doing um and enabling some essentially bad behavior like running away from home. She got her cell phone taken away and he went and gave her another cell phone, paid another kid $1,000 to give it to her. Um, allowing her to stay at his home um and not letting police know that she where she was.
>> Uh, by the way, I read this uh let me put it back up, but uh today is May 5th, Cinco de Mayo. Today is 55.
Uh hard to believe that is a one-year anniversary uh of a horrific event uh today. So our hearts go out to Celeste Revas Hernandez and her family. I was with my kids today and I cannot imagine uh the anguish. But um Dr. Coachola, back to you before we get there's a little bit of new news on this um outside the psychological angle and I want to get to that in a minute. But you know you're talking about the control issue here. Obviously, that's a big component of coercive control, hence the name. But are they generally younger victims? Like in coercive control relationships, do you see a lot of teenagers being manipulated by grown men?
>> Well, I mean, I think in general, we know that the young women ages 15 to 35 are suffering domestic abuse or intimate partner violence at triple the national average. So certainly age plays a factor in this, but I want to be really careful. Course of control is not psychological abuse. Psychological tactics are one way that abusers lure in their victims and then will eventually begin gaslighting, manipulation, etc. And then they move on to other things. I mean, I think the question you posed about, you know, the the reality is is that some people can handle their anger pretty damn well >> and they're very savvy at it. And those are the people that we never see them actually commit a violent crime. It doesn't mean violence hasn't happened in the relationship in other ways psychologically, right? But some people can't handle their anger and and that's the people that when we see the trajectory of coercive control, this is why we know it's very it is linked to femicide and philicide, the murder of children. Because what happens is there's some people when they have this this um intense reaction to being held accountable to needing to retaliate to get revenge that they will do the most horrific acts. And so it's always about power and control. I mean virtually I I can say virtually always about power and control.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And Dr. Tibbori, I lied. I'll get to John in one second. But you see this comment here a lot. This case really turns my stomach. I can't imagine being that evil. We get a lot of emails saying, you know, I love your coverage of stuff, but I just can't watch this one. Um because of the brutality and because of the age. Um people, you know, they turn away from it. Um and I don't want to shame anybody because everyone's obviously got their own uh absolute right to watch or not watch what they want, but how important is it to know about this? A lot of people just they they they can't really handle the facts of some of these cases. But if we don't learn about it, we don't know how to stop it. Is that right?
>> Um, yes. I I would agree with that. But I I do think that we have to um, you know, kind of set a limit here because we tend to look at these things in sensationalized >> ways, right? And um, and then, you know, we we get all excited about it's like, oh, and then what happened? And then what happened? Um and then the the entire message and the danger that comes within these experiences gets lost.
>> Uh that's interesting. Uh and I totally agree with you on that. Mary Dean here.
Uh sorry John there. Great qu this happened last night. Great questions. Um would you say Dr. Coiola that David was obsessed with uh Celeste? And then there's a follow-up question from a hope fear. I'll have you take both of these.
Should coercive control be taught in schools? You know, should children uh young, you know, teenage girls and boys learn about this sort of thing?
>> So, I run a program at the college where I teach where, you know, Title N mandates are in schools now in colleges where students have to learn about consent and domestic abuse and intimate partner violence, etc. But yeah, I run a program and I do think young the younger children are that we can begin giving them some critical thinking skills, the ability to understand what it means to have voice because really when we talk about the horrors of this case and then one of your viewers asks the question about like I don't know how much I can handle about this, we're seeing this on the global scale with the Epstein files.
I mean this is not really very different than that. It's just more of a micro view versus the macro view of the of the harms that were done in the Epstein files. So, I think the answer is absolutely. We need to start educating at a young age. Kids need to know what gaslighting is when they're young. They need to know what love bombing is. We need to have these conversations all the time with them. I mean, really like open conversations about it. And that, by the way, let's be really careful here. Um, we should have conversations around the fact that there are good people in the world and there are bad people. And you know what? I'm sorry to tell a child that there might be a bad person in the world, but how do we actually help them to understand the difference? And maybe in the worst of circumstances, not always, they will be able to speak out when that occurs. Not every kid is going to be able to do that, but we can hope that we actually give them some more agency in those circumstances. And I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the first question.
>> Uh, obsessed. Was he obsessed?
>> Oh, no. I would say he was obsessed with having power over people. And if it wasn't her, what do you what do you think? Right. Everybody on the call, if it wasn't her, it was going to be somebody else. He obviously was attracted to younger girls and that's about power, right? We know that's a power dynamic. But I think no obsessed.
No, this is the problem. We say when someone gets murdered, we say the abuser was obsessed with that person. Instead of saying that person has character traits that make them extremely harmful and willing to murder another person, we we really need to shift our lens a little bit.
>> Yeah. Because I could also, you know, I to your point, I could see someone asking the question, was Celeste obsessed with him? And that, you know, but uh Dr. Tabori from Helen here and then I promise I'm getting it. John, for one of the uh doctors, uh could the re John, you're not a doctor yet. Uh he didn't get rid of her body. Uh they're asking if maybe he didn't get rid of her body because he was that obsessed with her that he just couldn't do it. Um do you agree that there's not necessarily this obsession? Coming to us from South Austria. Yeah, I I don't I don't think he I don't think he was obsessed with her at all. I I do believe that he was obsessed with power and with fame, you know, his his his you know, burgeoning career. Um but why he kept the body, you know, I I mean, and again, we have to make sure that, you know, he is he is not convicted of this crime yet. Um, so this alleged crime, but let's just say that everything is true here. Um, this was a stupid crime. I mean, he was he he he made some really stupid mistakes as a criminal. Um, and so I don't think that this was thought through in a I don't know sophisticated manner per se here.
Um, so why her body was left there probably because he didn't know what else to do with it in that moment.
>> You know, I take heat for this. I know I understand he is a adult by the law, but still a 21-year-old in my eyes is a kid.
I mean, I was I don't even can't remember 21 and how uh it's not I'm not uh giving this guy any kind of excuse.
I'm just putting it out there that he's probably not the most adept criminal because he's probably young and dumb.
But uh John Day, finally to you here. So there is some uh news that broke today on this thanks to Lauren Conlin, investigative reporter for LA Mag, who was on the program last night. Uh she spoke to people who now say that there could be some federal exposure here. And this has all to do with the uh explicit photos that are apparently part of those 40 terabytes. There are photos, explicit sexual photos of David and Celeste Revas Hernandez. And so some attorneys and prosecutors like yourself are speculating that that could evolve into an entirely separate case with a federal nexus. Uh curious about your thoughts on that if that would happen.
>> Yeah, that'd be interesting. Wouldn't be surprising if there are, you know, it's it's child pornography is what it is.
That's what the basis would be. Um, and thinking about what you've got these, by the way, these are really good questions that are coming in. I've been >> Yeah.
>> impressed with them. You have these two medical experts. My question is the coercive control. It obviously bleeds over into people around him, right?
Because he obviously has an entourage.
He has there are people who must have been enabling this who knew what was going on um and acted or didn't act uh for some reason. But this it's obvious that this person is with a young child from 11 to 14.
Um, and nobody did anything. I don't blame the family. I mean, I just finished a representing a victim's family in a horrific beheading case and people in this community were blaming the family for letting her. I don't I don't do that. I don't think you can do that. I mean, the families are the families and they're doing what they can, but in this case, there are obviously people who enabled him uh to get away with this for a long time. And I guess my question is, does the course of control extend to those people, whether they're not the object of this person's uh desire, but they're still controlling them in some way that prevents them from stopping the activity. H um John, let me bounce back to you. Uh just to keep the ratio nice and even and I don't get hate mail that I'm going to one person more than the other. Uh this is not necessarily anybody's wheelhouse, but this story broke and I did a double take and I sent it to the COE and she's like, "Is this real?" Uh this is according to uh TMZ.
And you see the question down here, David's brother uh supposedly releasing music now. Well, uh, David's brother, uh, whose name is Caleb, is using the, um, artist name Kova Kova. And he apparently just launched his own music career with songs centered on love and emotional relationships with a similar uh, tone and style. And he's got some crazy titles uh, of songs similar to Romantic Homicide. Uh, John Day, the timing could not be worse. Uh, why would this kid at this time uh try to make a go of a career? You have any idea?
>> I mean, human behavior never ceases to amaze me. Um, the lack of any decency or humanity. Um, someone saw this as as an opening, >> said we got to jump on this because you're the window's going to close on you and you have an opportunity. I mean, it turns my stomach, but that's obviously what uh what's taking place.
Yeah. Uh, that's I guess from TMZ what the COE has up there. I'm going to pull this up, but um to you Dr. Tabori, I mean I don't think in the history of you know you live in LA there was some Hollywood producers like oh wow this would be a great time because David is trending on Twitter he didn't realize it's all for the wrong reasons. his songs. He posted two songs. One called Imaginary Love and the other is just simply called SCEX. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that word. Um those are the two songs, Imaginary Love and SEX. Um your response, let me put you on the uh on the couch now and ask you how do you feel about that?
>> Well, I mean, look, this is Hollywood and so yeah, with David trending, um why not have a family member release songs?
I mean, again, completely tonedeaf um and insensitive, but you know, it's Hollywood. Any publicity is publicity, right? I wouldn't say it's good, but it's publicity.
>> Yeah. I mean, that's for sure. Look at this. The John Day comments coming in definitely in the uh Men of STS calendar. Uh John Day uh coming up. Um, so yeah, Caleb, uh, is his his artist name Kova. He's a brother of David. He doesn't have any numbers in his name, but it is KOVA. What's going on there? I have no idea. Um, Dr. Coachola to you.
Uh, someone um asked if coercive control, and that's really the theme of tonight's show because this runs through everything here. Um, someone asked if it's learned behavior. Uh, how do you answer that?
Uh well I would say that people are born with particular traits and when you I'm a social worker by trade. When you grow up in a family environment where the traits good or bad are fortified um so say you're born we know that people are born with character traits that are um for lack of a better maybe have low levels of affective empathy. the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, right? They may actually have these traits that make them more vulnerable.
And when a child grows up in a home where they don't feel safe, when they don't have the ability to have their own agency in life, they may in fact, not all kids, they may because of that compromise they have, we call it an ego compromise, they may in fact take on more of these traits as they develop.
the more that you take on these traits as you develop and especially if you add in fame and fortune, entitlement, entitlement is a huge red flag, right?
And so if you add in those things like it's almost like you have like a recipe and you got like a little bit of the recipe going, but then you keep, you know, adding to the recipe and and it's a like a dough and it just grows and expands and expands and now you have a huge problem on your hands and it's harder to change those traits as we age.
And so I do want to circle back to one thing you said before that I think is important. And somebody said something about like was she obsessed with him?
>> And I think it's really challenging to take a child, right, who's in a p in a relationship where there's power over and suggest that she might be obsessed with him. Did what happens in these coercively controlling relationships regardless of the person's age, regardless of the power is that one person loses their agency. It's almost like a cage and it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And so it you don't have to go in there's many very successful women and men who are in these types of relationships. People go to cults. You would never imagine somebody being in a cult. And the reality is is that over time I may have never been a codependent person, but now I am dependent on that person in some way. That's not codependency. It's very different. it it creates a dependency in the relationship dynamic as a result of power over.
>> I don't know if that's helpful.
>> Yeah. Uh that's that's very interesting uh perspective there. Judy Herbert, one of the most generous in all of STS nation gifting 20 surviving and survivor memberships. I mean there's great questions coming in and some of these came in yesterday. By the way, tomorrow night we pivot back to uh Nancy Guthrie.
There's some updates there. got two Pumac County uh retired law enforcement officers and the great Phil Ramos coming on 7 o'clock tomorrow night. Uh please hit that like and subscribe button. But here uh Dr. Tori, a slew of questions.
Uh where were her parents? And then am I wrong to question his parents? So uh this came up on the show last night. I mean what do you say uh to people who are questioning the victim's parents saying you know where were they? She was a, you know, 11 at the time she met him.
Um, is that a fair question? And is it fair to question his parents? How' they raise this alleged monster?
>> Um, sure. I mean, we we can question everybody in it. Um, but I I do think that we need to be careful with it. You know, we're making all these assumption about assumptions about what's going on already. Um, and we we don't know the actual details. Um, I mean, there was something that was going on in the home that this this little girl is running away from home. That being said, she's running to this boy. Um, and I'm using that word intentionally, she's running to this boy who is enabling her behavior. And when you're when you're in love at any age, I mean, you do things that maybe aren't smart. Now, when you're 11, 12, 13 years old and you're in love, you're not listening to anybody other than your parents and you're living in this fantasy world. So, it makes sense in terms of questioning his parents. I mean, look, he he is young. This crime occurred when this alleged crime occurred when he was 20 years old. Um and you know he from what I understand you know he was homeschooled and maybe isolated and he's also you know this generation of these co kids who grew up very very isolated and we're seeing we don't know the full extent of of what happened but you know there's not a whole lot of social and emotional development um you know in this generation and definitely not with with this kid um this, you know, man, child, whatever he he is, um that he is 20 years old and he's attracted to a 13-year-old.
>> Yeah. Uh and they met again when when she was just 11. So, not not sure >> uh what's going on there. And then uh I I mean Dr. Coachola just I mean the lyrics romantic homicide you discovered that I think right before we went on air and you see his fans were wearing these shirts at his concerts these bloodstained shirts. Uh was that some sort of foretelling? Like should we the public have known something or are we supposed to just put it up to you know creative expression?
>> I was going to say don't you think this is part of the problem right? I mean, um, you know, and I know we have John on the call, but freedom of expression, of course, is something so important. It's our legal right, but man, at what point is it a slippery slope? It's all rather frightening, right, that we're not addressing some of this.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's kind of crazy. Uh, John Day to you. Um, this is again, uh, trigger warning. Uh, so if you need that, take a moment because I'm about to read a list of some things here, and I'll do that right now. Uh, John Day, two chainsaws, a body bag bought on Amazon, I believe, an inflatable pool, heavy duty bags, a burn cage, and then the plastic fragments uh found in her torso match uh the inflatable pool. If I hear just that list, I said this on the show last night, and I'm a juror on that jury panel, I'm uh I think I'm leaning towards a conviction. What do you do if you're the defense here? If those receipts come back to him for those items, I I I just don't see how he gets out of it. He's got fantastic attorneys.
>> He does, but that's I mean, you're right. That's a recipe for conviction.
And you know, just before he went on, I didn't realize you could >> order a body bag online to look for it. Now, that's in my search history, unfortunately. But, >> um, you can, and they're about $25 from Amazon. You can get all that stuff delivered. and to your house. And apparently um I mean Dr. Dbor was saying this was a really stupid crime. I mean of course and she's right about that.
But the things he did um the trail he left I mean you can't unring that that bell. I mean it's um that list is devastating for a defense. Um you know they've got all those things coming to him things that he intentionally ordered. There's no other there's no other excuse or explanation for ordering a body bag and a chainsaw in the same Amazon delivery, you know.
>> Uh survive and survivor. This is the COE. He also had a shovel delivered from Home Depot. Uh that sounds like something the Waldman family would have delivered for sure. I'm shocked that we haven't. Uh luckily body bags have not been delivered. Uh today is Tuesday uh in the Waldman family and that's why uh one of our cars was towed today. It was uh quite a long day. guys know I like to digress. I don't want to um bore you with all the details, but let's uh suffice it to say uh that um the COE, myself and uh my children and my two dogs, Fred and Ethel. Um oh, I got to share a quick story. So, uh we all had to be separated from one another for a few minutes, but uh last night I'm at the studio doing work uh here late into the evening. Uh, and by late in the evening, I mean a half hour after the podcast to get a hysterical call from the house. You've got to come home. I went home to discover uh that my boxer, Ethel, has once again engaged in illicit activity. Uh, she is a killer of sorts.
She had murdered a couple of iguanas.
And last night, we didn't know what it was and I had to literally wrestle it uh from her mouth. And uh whatever this thing was. I thought it was a duckling.
Uh my daughter believes it was a baby possum. I don't want to again bore you with the details. That's how my night ended. Uh car being towed is how it started. And as I said, uh I asked my son, "What is that called in the Waldman house?" And he said Tuesday. So uh we move on from there. But Judy Jude the Tiger here. Why say alleged crime? Who knew Ethel was so vicious, man? She'll just, by the way, she loves to lick your face. And then the COE was like, she's staying in the back room tonight. So that's where she stay. She was groomed today. Uh, why say alleged crime?
There was definitely a crime. A young girl is dead. Only the criminal conduct by David is alleged, right? That that is technically correct. But I think uh people like myself uh who are quote unquote trained journalists and and I know Dr. D'Vori has mentioned it a few times if he's convicted. Uh we can't convict him. Um Waldman's are on foot till further notice. Um yeah, uh you don't want to convict a guy, but look, there is the court of public opinion and there's just no getting around it. And there's definitely no getting around it in 2026. I mean, people are going to uh talk about these cases and it's a very high-profile case. And I'll say this, if this evidence is true and accurate, and it all circles back to uh David, I mean, John Day, let me have you answer that.
Uh what would you where would you put the chances of a conviction on a case like this if this all leads back to it?
>> I mean, you know, things happen in a prosecution you can't account for right now. But based on what we've seen, I know the prosecutor released a a pleading to I think it was today that the defense tried to keep uh sealed that was incredibly detailed with things like, you know, uh information details.
Um I the defense is, you know, you're just grasping you're you're it's like you're grasping the straw as you're trying to figure out is there some kind of uh psychological defense? Is there something is there a break here? Is there something that um that could account for? or so. I mean, you know, that's the flip side of the the Nick Reiner situation where you're looking for something. In that case, it's much more clear. Here, you don't have at least as far as what we've seen, there's no evidence of anything involving any sort of um uh defense that would be based on psychological evaluations and forensic psychologists like Dr. to who by the way I use for forensic psychologists all the time and they are just they're like the heroes of the criminal justice system I got to say they explain things they make things make sense even when they don't make sense and um I I have a lot of respect for forensic psychologists so >> yeah a fascinating field that is for sure uh you see the uh graphic here this is according to the prosecution filing um and Dr. Tori, I'll come to you on this. Uh, David Anthony Burke, aka David, amputated her left ring and pinky fingers because her ring finger contained a tattoo of his name. Uh, there's some debate last night whether it was the sh tattoo or it was his name uh on the index h on the ring, I'm sorry, left ring and pinky fingers. Uh, these fingers have not been recovered.
This is beyond horrific. But Dr. Tori, is there a reason you think that these fingers have not been recovered? Like, are these someone uh implied that maybe it was some sort of trophy that he put it somewhere quote unquote special? Um I mean, this is depraved beyond anybody's imagination. Uh your thoughts on the missing fingers?
>> I mean, look, we know a lot of serial killers will, you know, keep trophies of their victims, but you know, I at least not that we know of at this point. This is we're not dealing with a serial killer. We're dealing with somebody who this is a very disorganized crime. And um it you know I was just thinking about this last night. I you know my suspicion is he just might have thrown him and they just haven't been found somewhere.
Um like you know maybe up in that lake Kachuba or wherever it was where he he he drove off to.
>> Yeah. Up in Santa Barbara County. By the way, this is the you'll only have this conversation in true crime when I asked what about the missing fingers and you're like, I thought about this last night and maybe he just threw them.
That's only and for some reason that that reminds me of the don't I don't know why, but it reminds me of the famous Lena Bobbit story. And if you don't know Lena Bobbit, Google that. But go ahead, Dr. >> I I just wanted to, you know, jump back onto something. So, the other day I I was ordering a new IQ test because we have an updated version that came out and I'm like, well, now I need to purchase it. And I have to go through, you know, a lot of essentially a background check to prove that I am a licensed psychologist here in California before I can even access this test to purchase it. And I'm thinking you can buy a body bag on Amazon. I mean, it's like there there needs to be some sort of social check here, but I I literally have to It's like TSA for for buying an IQ test to to get it. And I still haven't been approved yet.
>> Yeah. I mean, you should have to have a license to have kids. I fully believe in that. You don't need that, but you know, you need a license to put up, you know, a nail salon or something. So, who knows? None none of it makes sense. Uh, thank you to Immortal Sergeant, the best guest anywhere in the universe. Oh, to that point, by the way, the COE pulled some interesting uh video, even though it's digital, whatever. Uh, and I'm going to play that in a second. Uh, and she's probably wondering why the hell haven't you played it, but I will play it in a second. But, uh, Dr. Coachola to you. I mean, do you think there's a chance that he has done this before that he's killed before or if he went uncaught uh and if he is convicted of these crimes that, you know, that he could have done it again or would have done it again? What do you think?
>> Gosh, that's a really tough one. Um, I I I guess that I think that it seems it seems to me that he was praying upon her and he was taking advantage. Obviously, she's much younger, etc. Is he capable of doing that again? Yeah. The question becomes, is he capable of murder every time? You know, or if this particular incident enraged him so much because she obviously was, you know, threatening him that she was going to expose him. So, if if he got to a point where he could no longer handle his I guess, you know, basically what she was doing was she's saying, "I'm going to expose you." Which is an exposure of his shame. He knows like that he's going to be known as this person and he can't handle it. Right. So I guess the question is would the next victim or if this happened before has the prior victim threatened him in the same way or was he able to control that person better? See right.
>> Yeah that's that's interesting just the level of control that that they can exert. Uh depends on the outcome. Um I guess uh by the way there is a playbyplay of uh Ethel's homicidal behavior. Uh, see how he put that up on the Patreon. It happened in real time uh last night. Uh, that's that's what we have Patreon for. Um, a lot of my weirdness will uh make its way uh to Patreon. So, uh, check it out if you want to check it out. Uh, okay. So, here is without further ado uh the first piece of video. This is now David uh ranting on Tik Tok. Uh, for full disclosure, I have not seen this yet. We will watch this together and get the uh experts take. Here we go.
>> David here. Today I'm going to be talking about sin and God's forgiveness.
And I'm going to be reading from Romans 7:14. And it goes like this. We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do because I do what I don't want to do and I hate what I do. And if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, I am no longer myself who does those things, but the sin living in me. For I know that the good itself does not dwell in me, and that it's the sinful nature that dwells in me. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not the good that I want to do. I'm going to hold it right there. Um, very interesting. I did not hear this. Uh, Dr. Coola, let me come to you first here. I mean, he is literally reading um about sin. He's obviously an intelligent guy. I mean, he was homeschooled. Uh and I think that was an issue just from hearing what he said about it. But uh here's a guy who's literally reading about sin, talking about doing things that he does not want to do. What is he is he almost crying out for help here, do you think?
>> Uh I I just I don't know if you saw my eye roll because I'm like I'm like this is the charlatan of all charlatans.
Isn't this what abusers show up as?
They're performers. And so, you know, maybe this is who he wishes he could be.
And he's also kind of talking a little bit about punishment, like the idea that when he does something bad, that's not really him. It's his sin and all of that other stuff. Maybe there's, you know, every once in a while these people can show up with some redeeming qualities.
Maybe this was a moment of truth for him. But the reality is, I'm going to go back to my comment about it being like a cult. When you get into these relationship dynamics, it's a luring in and you lose sight of everything. And these people, think about all the cult leaders we know, the infamous people we know, they show up as charlatans. Nobody on the planet would ever think they're harmful. So, I think we're dealing like, you know, just this alone. I mean, it's just like, how performative is he going to be? Or again, is this a glimpse of him actually trying to be authentic?
Doesn't come well to him. It doesn't come naturally to him, but he's trying to he's trying to be a good guy here. I don't know.
>> Yeah. I mean, Dr. Dory, going back to my other question, I mean, as the son of a psychiatrist and a social worker myself, like I really want to know what was going on in that home. I mean, are you curious? Because I don't feel I mean, this is not something that just started when he moved to LA. This has been brewing, I'm sure, for many, many years.
I mean, how far back does this control and all these kind of I don't know, for lack of a better term, like idiosyncrasies and weirdness, how far back do you think this all goes?
>> Oh, I'm sure that this has been lifelong. um you know you you don't all of a sudden become a you know controlling person you know overnight or when you just meet the right person or the one person who's vulnerable enough to fall under your spell. I mean you know these are behaviors that you know develop over time but they've been there for quite some time. Al, so from what I understand, he grew up in a very religious household. So to me, it just I was rolling my eyes, too, but it seems like this is something that he's read over and over and over again.
>> Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
I'm going to take it back a touch because it's really interesting and then we'll get uh John Day's take on reading of the back.
>> I hate what I do and if I do what I don't want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, I am no longer myself who does those things, but the sin living in me. For I know that the good itself does not dwell in me, and that it's the sinful nature that dwells in me. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not the good that I want to do, but the evil that I don't want to do. This I keep on doing. Now if I do what I don't want to do, it is no longer I who did it, but the sin living in me that does it. And this is Paul talking about his struggles with sin and how he cannot overcome that overwhelming urge to continue to do wrong. Although he knows right from wrong and good and bad, I feel like we all have a moral compass and that moral compass will always lead to the good option, but sometimes the bad option is easier. you take that easier route. It's it's it's a copout.
You don't have to deal with the consequences of your sin by sinning. And personally for I'm going to hold it right there. It's just a little bit left. But uh John Day again uh he says the e and he's reading from scripture here, but the evil I don't want to do I keep on doing and the sin living in me uh is what does it. Um I don't know.
This is super eerie now in retrospect uh realizing uh what he's accused of. But >> yeah, if I'm the if I'm the prosecutor, Joel, I want to get that in opening. You know, I want to play that. Um you want your jury to understand there's no I mean he's a charismatic guy, right? He's an intelligent guy. He's incredibly knowledgeable based just on that about, you know, presenting and it, as Dr. Coach has said, it's performative.
Um, but you can understand if you're a jury, you're watching this thing thinking, "This guy, he knows what he's talking about when he's talking about sin." I mean, this is not just reading something. He's something he's coming from the heart. At least that's the message I want as a prosecutor to be sending that there's no mistake and there's no doubt that he had the capacity to do this uh horrific crime and also have sex with a 12-year-old or 11-year-old, however old she was when when they started. I mean, there's a backstory. They've got to remember the context from the prosecution side of um all the evil that's taken place. It's not just the murder. There's a if you rewind that tape, it goes back several years.
>> And do you think this could actually go into an opening statement without being quote unquote too prejuditial?
>> If you're if you're going to get it out later on in the trial, depends on your judge. But I've had opportunities as a prosecutor and defense lawyer when you get video in an opening. if you're able to say this is coming in as an exhibit or this is admissible. Um, but you've heard his words. I mean, you saw that there's no doubt that he understands, at least in his mind, what he's talking about, the difference between good and evil. That's the message you want your jurors to understand right out of the gate.
>> Yeah. Wow. Um, okay. Let me play out the rest of this and then, uh, we've got some more behind it.
>> Me, I used to struggle a lot with lying and and lying is the easiest thing to do. is the easiest sin to commit and the devil is a liar and it he can alter your thoughts. The the difference between God and the devil is the devil never knows what you're thinking. God always knows what you're thinking but the devil doesn't know. He can never know what you're thinking in your head because he's not all knowing. But what he can do is manipulate your thoughts and continue to plant these seeds. Plant these seeds that oh if you do this it's so much easier. You have no consequences. You will never have to deal with that part.
Uh that's that that's from Tik Tok. I mean Dr. Coachola uh sin uh lying is the easiest sin to commit. It's almost like confessional in nature because uh we've seen video after the murder. Uh we had some of it on last night and he's clearly lying. Uh so he's he's proving his point right there. Uh your take.
Oh, you're muted. Hang on one sec. That was me, I think. Uh, let me get you. There you go. Go ahead.
>> So, when I know that I'm not a decent human being, what am I going to do? If I actually am pretty disordered, I'm going to do my damnedest to make sure the world doesn't think I'm not a decent human being. I'm going to be del delusional in my thinking. I'm going to actually believe. And he's pontificating a little bit here, isn't he? I mean, that's the grandiosity that we're seeing. He's he's he's trying I think probably really hard to portray a decent human being even though at his core he knows he's a pretty horrible human being frankly. So that's how I see it. Um performative hiding behind some kind of a shell trying hard to give a a message that he's something that he's not.
>> I mean I'm just wondering about that.
Dr. Dbori, do do you agree? Do you think he realizes how evil he is or do you think he justifies it in his mind with I don't know with religion or something else maybe?
>> Yeah, that's that's a really good question. Um and you know, one of the things that we have to look at is is his age and um and the potential for an emerging mental illness. But we see with chronic mental health conditions like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and and things like that is they tend to manifest in your late teens, early to mid20s.
So, you know, we don't really know what's going on with him. I mean, is this him pontificating? Is this, you know, him being, you know, grandiose and delusional that we would see in mania or hypomomania? Um, is he psychotic? Um, we really don't know. We don't know his background and we might not know that for a few years. Um, again, is he evil?
I don't know. I mean, we have really good people who do bad things and bad people who do good things. Um, he was definitely desperate. That I can say he was definitely desperate in in in this sense. Um, you know, and and again, it's a very disorganized crime. Um, I'm also going to disagree with him on lying being easy. You know, being truthful is easy. You don't have to remember what the stories that you've already told.
>> Good point. Good point. Uh, Gia and TJ's mom, uh, John Day to you. Do you think his lawyers are going to try to get a change of venue or do you think that they would rather be tried in LA County because he's quote unquote a celebrity and has a better chance of getting off?
I know change of venues are really tough, John, but is that something that's in there? uh for consideration.
>> That's a really good question. I think generally, you know, how many people live in LA County and the idea that you won't be able to find jurors who I mean, where are you going to go? I mean, where else do you go? I don't think that even though it's a good question, it's a good issue. Uh venue changes are really tough to get, especially in a giant place like, you know, LA, um my hometown. Um, but I don't see that as something that's that's viable given uh the number of people who live there and and the odds of, you know, not being able to seat a jury that can be fair and impartial as they say.
>> Yeah, I think that there's a lot of people in LA who've never heard of this guy. Uh even though it is, you know, the uh music and and acting capital of the world, but there's a lot of people have no idea who this guy is and haven't followed this story um at all, but they will be uh freaked out when they uh hear some of the evidence, I'm sure. Uh so the thumbnail Dr. Coachiola uh for this show is was pregnancy um potential motive here. Now it's important to point out the prosecutors here say that text exchanges included references to sex, pregnancy, abortion, and use of the plan B emergency contraceptive. We don't know whether or not she is pregnant or was pregnant. Uh at least not yet. Uh we don't know if we're going to find that out. Maybe they were just talking in hypothetical terms to each other via text like, "Hey, if I got pregnant, would you, you know, would you still be with me?" Or whatever the circumstance was. But, um, if she was in fact pregnant, and that's a big if, uh, is that the kind of thing that would tip the scales for a person engaging in coercive control?
Well, I think first of all what we know is that you know abuse still occurs and actually occurs at a very high rate with pregnant women and and abusive relationships. It doesn't stop. It doesn't subside. But I think the other thing is it depends on what he wanted to do if she was pregnant. If she was willing to do what he wanted, then maybe it wasn't going to be problematic. But if she wasn't willing to do what he wanted, it seems to me that it could have been problematic.
Uh, Johnny Knoxville upset. Uh, I didn't see the super chat, uh, Johnny Knoxville, but I think the COE pulled it up, so I think we're good. Johnny Knoxville, uh, commenting about the super chats, but here we go. Um, this part, too, uh, and Dr. D'vor, we talked about it a little bit. Uh, they met now, uh, according to, uh, the state when when she was just 11 years old. um became sexual when she was 13 and he was 18. So, he's an adult by law. And they say explicit photographs uh document and corroborate this relationship, which is what we also talked about a little bit earlier. Uh and that could uh reach some sort of federal nexus. But what what do you make of this? He's 18, she's 11. Uh that's a big difference even at that young age.
Yeah, I I thought about this one again last night, too. Um I was having a conversation about it. I wasn't just randomly thinking.
>> You're not the only one talk. Oh, I thought you were talking.
>> Um you know, again, there's a level of emotional immaturity um with him. Um you know, it's you know, when you're 40 and you're dating, you know, somebody who's 33, that's not that big of an age difference. But when you're, you know, 18 and 11 or whatever it is, um, you know, that's a huge age difference and, you know, at very very different stages in life. You know, at 18 you're I mean, you've graduated high school supposedly, right? Um, in at 11, what are you fifth grade? I don't remember. Fifth grade, middle school.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, maybe sixth grade. Fifth or sixth grade.
>> Okay. Okay. So, you're starting middle school or just leaving elementary school. I mean, what is it that you're talking about? What is it that you have in common? What is it that that you're experiencing? So, you know, I it it has to be some level of emotional immaturity um for for somebody to be that attracted to somebody so young. I mean, it's not 18 and 16, 18 and 15. 15 still illegal with an 18-year-old. 16? No, not in California. But 15, I mean, it at least you're in high school at age 15, but 11, >> it's concerning.
>> Yeah, I should probably know that, especially since I have uh an 11year-old right now, I think. Um, all right, so uh let's uh COE, can you roll the um the ne this next bit of video is David and Celeste? Now, this made the rounds a while back. Um, it's a little difficult to find. The COE tracked it down. Uh, this is alleged to be Celeste. We don't know for sure that it's her, but let's take a look and then we'll get comments and then there's one more piece of video after that.
>> Delete this.
>> Are we Moz, can we delete all Vs and then as soon as the stream ends, delete the stream, too.
Can we delete Can we delete anything?
You done for, bro? Y'all are not done.
Now you gonna answer. YO YO YO YO. WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT.
>> OH, look it. Answer that one. That's so mean if you don't answer.
>> Which one? Which one? Which one?
>> What's good? Big fan. Mix by me. Oh, thank you. Mitch Mitch.
>> I got to sign with him if you even trained you.
>> That's controversial.
>> It's controversial OF KIDS.
really good. It's been a It's been a good one. Bye.
>> Bye guys.
>> Mwah. Oh my. Delete everything. Delete.
Delete everything. Everything goes.
Everything goes. Everything.
>> Uh, I won't even ask a question. Dr. Coola, >> I I'm I'm trying to figure out I I was trying to watch what it was saying. So, can you give me a little context here?
So he's a COE helped me out here.
Everyone helped me out here. But he's a streamer. So I mean there's some sort of I think a stream chat there and I might be it might be a Tik Tok chat. I have no idea because I don't know about that stuff. But he's speaking to to people and I I don't know the full context other than I mean what struck me so much is just sort of the immaturity level, right? I mean and it's also just I mean we're all >> I'm clueless. I think you guys are about this particular thing what they're doing here. I think we're all sort of clueless about John Day. Uh you're a big streamer. What are they doing there?
>> Uh yeah, I have no ready answer for that. But what strikes me about that is >> COE has the answer real quick. Hold on.
They were streaming and they were responding to chats and inappropriate comments and topics and people said that they were getting cancelled. Okay. So, uh and these are probably 12-year-old kids at home, but go ahead, John.
>> No. Right. Well, that's one context, but that short clip of a video, that's a young girl. I mean, that is a really young >> child. I mean, that's not an appropriate age woman to be with that guy. I mean, >> did anyone else watch that? Did anyone else around? I mean, I keep going back to that. Who didn't stop this?
>> Yeah. I mean, John, are we going to see are we going to see this video at the trial? I mean, is the government going to do everything they can to get all these videos in?
>> I would think they're trying to get every piece of video in that shows them in together in any in any way because anyone who see I mean I I think my reaction is a reasonable reaction watching that video which is that is a really young child with him. Yeah, they're goofing around. They're they're giggling. They're laughing, whatever they're doing. But I mean, that is not on any level. Is that strike any human being as appropriate?
>> I mean, to me, it's just unbelievably tragic. I I don't even know what to make. I mean, to me, they're just both so immature, so young, and, you know, in this, I don't know, relationship where maybe they believe that they're in love with each other, and it's just it's just disturbing on on so many levels. Um, by the way, Dr. Tabori, I'll have you comment on this. In this video, uh, he's wearing an I love hot moms shirt. Uh, in yesterday's video that we played, he's wearing, um, I love boobs. Uh, also underscoring his incredible maturity level. I'm not going to judge because that could be artistic expression, but uh, I mean, what is that? What's happening? Yeah, I I've actually seen those shirts around here. So, I I mean it's Yeah, that the hot mom's one. I mean, like that one I I wasn't getting.
Um it it it's definitely, you know, I think in in in the context he's using it, I think it's like derogatory. I I mean, I it wasn't like, "Hey, look at all those hot single moms." It's like, "Oh, I love hot mom." I mean, I don't know. It just was concerning. Um, I do want to say something about that that video where he's um he he says to her, you know, I media trained you. I mean, that is really showing that power dynamic. Look, I trained you to do this, to behave this way, to act this way. I'm in charge. I'm, you know, all knowing and you're just my follower here. So, I'm training you to do what I need you to do. Thought that was really interesting.
>> Yeah. And someone brought this up yesterday and again today, Dr. Coachola, I mean, 5 foot five, 120 pounds. But I'll tell you what's very powerful and strong is his is his ability to communicate. He's a pretty good communicator. He's smooth, right? And he's he's articulate.
>> Um, how much of that is used in coercive control? the power of speech, the power of language, the power of that kind of expression.
>> Yeah. You know, I think that there's a coping mechanism when you kind of are in a you need to exert power and control over people. You figure out a way to communicate that that conveys that. I mean, in general, that's, you know, that's the we call that like the intermittent reinforcement. People are smooth talkers, people who can show up and the whole room thinks that they're a wonderful person when actually maybe they're going home and beating on their wife, right? Like it's just it's it's the nature of how these people behave and they figure out how to navigate the world in a really remarkable way. They really do. And and again, as you know, we keep hearing he's he's young. You know, is there other mental health issues going on? Sure. We we we need to consider all of those things. But it's also intriguing to me, the one thing I did see from that clip is that they were talking about the Epstein files, right?
And you know, here's these really young people, especially this young girl, to John's point, like this young kid who's having this I mean, I think that's probably a little bit of the world we're living in now, where these young people are very exposed to inappropriate content at a very, very young age. Like, you know, we know that like eight and 10 year olds are exposed to pornography at a very young age, that child sexual abuse images are easy to access online, and that there is a population of young people who are being sadly harmed by these interactions they're having.
>> Yeah, I think it's also just getting worse. I mean, uh, Dr. Dbor, to that point, like in in private practice, do you tell parents, uh, get your kids off of social media? I mean, it's kind of hard to avoid, >> you know. I don't work with kids for that reason. Um, I mean, it's it's really difficult. Um, >> well, let me ask you this. Should I get my kids off of social media? Dr. Tibbori, >> I think that they're going to get on it no matter what. So, I think that the best thing that we can do because social media is here. I mean, it's not going anywhere and it's a big part of people's lives, especially kids. And that's how, you know, they judge things. And so I I think what we need to do is look at it and teach kids how to use it responsibly and also to fact check. I mean there's so much misinformation out there on social media. Um that you know things get out there and then it gets believed and there's no ability to fact check or problem solve.
>> Yeah. I mean, John Day, if I'm the defense attorney uh on this case, I'm just sitting there in my office like with my head in my hands going, "Oh my god, this is a disaster." Uh what is uh Blair Burke, I think is her name. What is she doing on a day like today?
>> She's trying to hire someone like Dr. Tabori.
That's what she's doing. Um >> how hard is it to hire someone like that to who's gonna I mean, what is that person gonna say, John Day? Well, you hire them and you want you want their honest opinion. I mean, if they're going to give you what you want to hear, then you they're useless to you. You want someone who is going to be professional and say, "This is what this evaluation finds." And if you've had a baseline before, you can match it up. It's like, "What does this kid look?" I mean, is there is there some evidence of a of a condition an an evidence of some kind of, you know, psychosis, schizophrenia, something that's developing that we don't know about that nobody saw? I mean, if you're the defense attorney, you've got to be going down that road and you've got to try everything you can think of to come up with a defense. It makes it hard. That's why defense work is challenging. Um, and that's why everybody hates you if you're a defense lawyer. But that's that's how the system works. He's entitled, you know, the worst people are entitled to the best defense. Really?
>> Yeah. And are you think they're going to make an angle for some sort of insanity defense? Um, not maybe necessarily traditional like I'm thinking what Dr. Dbor said. I'm going to try to argue or get an expert who says, uh, this guy was heading down the same road as, let's say, Nick Reiner. Uh, this was like, uh, you know, he was just, uh, you know, like in a dormant schizophrenic stage.
you know, it really peaks in men at age 25. Are they going to try to look for that angle?
>> They've got to look for it. They may not be there, but they've got to try to see if it's there because otherwise you're left with, oh, you know, the consciousness of guilt, cutting off fingers, ordering a body bag and a chainsaw. I mean, there's nothing uh and those facts that this is a horrible I mean, that's the right sorry for the expression that cuts both ways for the defense and the prosecution. There's nothing there. So, if you don't have a uh defense based on some kind of uh mental situation, you're you're just you're in trouble.
>> But but it is and and might I just say it's a little bit challenging because then we start with this we start putting mental health schizophrenics don't have a high rate of murder murdering people.
They have a high rate of being victims of crimes, right? And so then we start we like almost perpetuate the myth that people with mental illnesses, mental health issues are problematic when it's not those people. It's the people who are living their lives in a way that once they're triggered in a particular way, they may need to retaliate, right?
And that's more character traits versus mental health issue. So I mean I it frustrates me. I understand that happens, John, and I totally get it.
just so frustrating because as someone who I I do see people clinically and I I work with people who have been harmed over and over again by abusive people and they have children who are continuously being harmed in these family systems and we do a really bad job of finding the difference between what a mental health or trauma is versus like what a what a harmful behavior traits are.
>> Yeah, that's these are good points. I I totally agree with you on this point.
>> I know you do. I'm not I'm not at all arguing with you. You know that. Yeah.
Joel, can I I need to point something out here though with these incredibly good and smart doctors.
>> A JD degree is kind of a doctorate. It >> is a doctorate >> by the way. I just make sure you purest doctor.
>> Yeah, John Day, maybe you'll be hiring Dr. Dory or Dr. Coachiola for >> in a New York minute. So, >> if I could jump in here really quick, you also need to to look at too. I mean, he's he was only 20 years old at the time of the crime. And look, if we're looking at mental illness, these at best would be mitigating factors, right? Um doesn't excuse the crime. Um but they are mitigating factors. But here in California, we have a youthful offender law, right? So any crime that was committed under the age of 26, not any crime, but certain crimes committed under the age of 26, um they are entitled to um like a review of their cases. That that's what we saw in the Menendez case. they were entitled for parole and they can't be sentenced to a life without. Um, so I and again I am not an attorney so I don't know the intricacies and why this is a special circumstance um versus falling under that youthful offender law. So I I know there's there there's something there. I just not a lawyer and um I don't understand it. But basically what we understand in terms of youthful offenders is that brains aren't fully developed until the age of 25. Right?
And so that's why that that law comes into effect. So under the age of 26, >> and Dr. I'm sorry, I didn't mean I >> No, that's okay. But but um like what will they give them like some kind of like diagnostic testing? Like how do you figure out if someone at that age is becoming schizophrenic, let's say?
>> Well, I mean, you would do an evaluation and you would look at um you know, if somebody is symptomatic, right? Or if symptoms are emerging. I mean, it's not like you wake up one day and all of a sudden you're schizophrenic or bipolar.
I mean, these these symptoms do emerge over time, but we they truly manifest between your late teens to early to mid20s. I think in males it's a little bit younger. I don't remember the statistics specifically though.
>> This is what my dad would say right here. My dad is a psychiatrist. Stop labeling. He uh ain't no hollow back girl to Dr. Coachola. What if he's just a bad dude? I can see my dad saying that. May he rest in peace. Why always try to attach a diagnosis? My dad would say maybe he just made a really bad choice. Um, what about that, Dr. Coach Yield? We're always looking for excuses, you know.
>> Well, there's there's a difference between making a bad choice and leaving somebody in a car for months at a time and taking their fingers off. And by the way, having a pattern of controlling that person at the age of 11. We haven't talked about that at all here. Like the sexual pre praying upon this child.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, yeah. So there's a big difference, right? I mean, it's this this >> Well, what what what what what should we know about that aspect about praying on a Apparently, he he started to pray on her when she's 11 and they have sexual relations at the age of 13. What What should we know?
>> That didn't wait till 13. But anyway, >> he he targeted her.
>> Yeah, >> he targeted her. He he knew that she had a vulnerability. He knew that she needed someone. Maybe maybe she needed rescuing from her. we've talked about why you know she was running away from her house or whatever right he built trust this is what you do is you build trust and from there you're going to go on and fulfill a need for that person so what is that need and if you have fame and fortune I mean the need again is you know I mean a lot of young children undeveloped people with undeveloped brains that's what they want everybody wants to be a tic tacer and be famous and all this other stuff right I mean so you go on from there you isolate >> you know and then from there you sexualize the relationship and that can happen very quickly or slowly and then you maintain control. You know, you're going to lose your house, you're going to lose your phone, you're going to I'm you know, I I I will hit you. I I don't you know, like I'm I'm not suggesting this person did these things. I'm suggesting, you know, and maintaining control doesn't have to feel bad. That's the other thing people forget. When you take a four-year-old who's being abused or a 12y old or in this case this young woman at 14, this young girl at 14, not woman at 14, you know, it can be just, you know, come on, I'll take care of you. You have housing like nobody's going to love you as much as I love you.
>> Well, there we go. Yeah. The love bombing, right? It's going on the whole time.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Something you just said. Oh, about everyone wants to be a Tik Tocker. Well, my uh talking about jolting your dad into a midlife crisis, my my how old is she? COE 10. I I lose track of how old these guys, she's 10. She comes home yesterday and uh she's like, "Dad, is it okay if I tell people that you're a news reporter and not on YouTube?" Like, what are you embarrassed of your father? So, uh I didn't even know how to respond to that, John Day. Um I don't have a real job, not a real human. Um just trying to keep my kids.
Did you stick Ethel after her?
>> I Ethel might get her tonight for that.
But uh yeah, so uh that was that was Monday in the Waldman household. Um I thought she would think it's cool. My son thinks it's cool. My son points out that every single person he watches on YouTube has at least 40 million subscribers. That's what he likes. Hey, Dad. Do you know so and so? He has 47 million subscribers. I'm like, "Oh, thank you." Um meanwhile, it's like a a 9-year-old somewhere uh with soccer videos. Um here we go. Uh, on that note, this is the final video. This is Zack Sang. I have no idea who this dude is.
Uh, but he does an interview show and he interviewed uh, David and we'll watch this and then you imagine my daughter goes to school and she's trying to hide the fact that I'm on YouTube. Do you?
Unbelievable. Here we go.
>> A female proud >> uh, seems to be your love interest, right?
>> What is that adding to the story? It's a whole different layer of depth for an album. I feel like especially for me when I'm having dialogue now and things that add to the story. I'm talking about the invisible string theory which is a common theme and one of the most the motifs for the project. I really wanted the the the listeners to feel like they're reading a book almost and they get into a different chapter with every song, but there's also that kind of pause where they can of take every song in by itself and then have this kind of visual landscape in this interlude to kind of be in my head and my mindset and why I wrote the project like this and how everything went just to like keep them even more interested and connected throughout the project. For sure. At the end of the interlude, correct me if I'm wrong here. She says, "I love you."
>> You don't respond. She says, "I love you again or repeats itself and you don't respond." Was that done purposely?
>> Absolutely. Because the next song after that is Is This Really Love?
>> Uhhuh.
>> So, it's kind of like a lead into that kind of a transition type thing, you know?
>> I believe the last time you were here, you didn't I didn't you say you never experienced love or hadn't been in love?
You didn't believe?
>> Yeah. I didn't I wasn't in a relationship then. No.
>> But today, you are or you >> No, I've been through a couple. I'm single still right now, but I've been through a few and they've taught me a lot of things. They've showed me what love is and what love isn't and how to approach it and be human with it and not be so artist, you know, and not look for the things to write about in these types of situations and kind of been more mature about it and getting emotionally intelligent with it. And um with this interlude, it's kind of like telling my view on what the invisible string theory is and the scarlet string or the whatever. It's so many different names.
Is that like that? Is it also connected to like the the rope that's around?
>> Yes. The album cover, I'm covered in this string which is representative of the invisible string three. But throughout the entire project, I wanted everything to feel connected. I wanted everything to feel holistic, have a a through line that everybody could understand. And with the interlude, it's kind of explaining from my perspective how it was taught to me because that's a real conversation that happened. And the irony of it was that person that was saying, "I love you. I love you. She's not in my life anymore." So, it's like people say that the string can't be cut and the connection cannot be severed, but I feel like it can sometimes. And that's why I wanted to put, you know, Afterlife and all these songs that feel like endings and conclusions and goodbyes on the project to kind of solidify that message of this is the end of something, not the beginning.
>> And can you break down the invisible string theory?
>> Yeah. So, basically, it's like this.
It's a South >> Wow. Um, so he he's talking here. Uh, I just seeing you in a female. Uh, seems to be your COE.
>> We're both hitting the same button at the same time. And then you get the same video back. And the cat is back. What's cat's name again? Roar. Roar. Shock.
See, I remembered. Um, >> Dr. Coachio, uh, let me start again with you. So he he's talking about love and attachment and this string and the interlude to his song. Uh asking questions like what is a loving relationship? I mean I don't think this is a guy who knows anything about who he is even at this point in life. Um what's happening here?
>> I don't know. Maybe I just have this like this radar up. I'm like like I just feel like it's all performance. It's like uh it just it make it's actually making me a little uncomfortable because it feels like and somebody wrote in the chat and I don't know if it's accurate.
Was this the day after? I mean because if that is true then that's that's like actually makes me really like there's a performance here going on and um >> CO do we know does does anyone know if this is the day after? I don't I don't I don't know that. Um >> yeah I don't know. Somebody said in the chat that it was the day after. So, >> yeah, it's it's >> very philosophical. He's he's philosophical. He's truly able to have really engaging conversations. It's evident that he feels he it sounds like he's a deep person.
>> It's, you know, it's it's actually too perfect for somebody young who Yeah.
It's just it's just Yeah. So that's the but that's the theory of the prosecution was that his persona was at risk and that entire structure was threatened by her exposing him and so he >> chose this horrific way out. I mean yeah I guess you're right in the sense he does seem it's performative but it is a it is something he's put on. It's a it's a it's a mask. It's a personality he puts on. And the thing that threatens that is the girl, right? she threatens to uphold or upend that entire thing.
His only way out, the rest of us would have, you know, reasonable ways of extricating ourselves from an adult situation that doesn't involve violence.
But the prosecution's theory is that he didn't have anything else to do except murder her, uh, cut her up, stick her body in a body bag in a truck in a trunk, a frunk, and leave her there. So, his whole persona was at risk, I guess.
>> Yeah. Uh, Dr. De Boy, there's clarification here. So, this comes 5 days after prosecutors say she was murdered. And he's sitting here saying, uh, he's been through a few relationships. I mean, this is a guy who just used chainsaws and an inflatable pool uh, you know, to to make sure the blood didn't seep out to to carve up a 14-year-old girl. What how is there such a disconnect, such a cognitive dissonance that he could even go on a talk show?
>> Well, I mean, talk about compartmentalizing, right? I mean it's just disconnecting um you know but we also see that in trauma we see like a disconnection in trauma where um you know either there is a lack of memory I mean we actually do people can lose some time um and memories um when we talk about trauma and when they've experienced trauma but you know it might have been like what he might have been experiencing you know some derealization or depersonalization where he's not looking at um the world around him is real or he's not feeling real in this world. And that's why he was able to like compartmentalize and you know do this um this interview and you know talk about whatever he's talking about in um you know in in in a seemingly calm rational manner although he is talking I had to look up what the invisible string theory is. Um, and you know it it's I'm looking at it right now. It says it's linked to a 2000 children's book, The Invisible String. And I'm like, well, that's really telling.
>> Yeah.
>> Children's book. Yeah.
>> It's for when you're not with your children. You actually there's an invisible string that connects you.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, Dr. you might want to consider moving out of LA cuz I could see this dude on like Jimmy Kimmel and Kimmel leaning in or any of these late night, you know, like it just forgive me my wife is from LA, but it's just so LA seeing her talking about what is love and relationship and the people are so interested and then you find out now that this guy is alleged to have murdered by chopping up this young girl's body 5 days before this interview. It's crazy. I think we all like as a as a society need to just give ourselves a bit of a reality check about who these people are that we all worship. That's just me on my little soap box right there. But uh another fascinating show with fascinating best guests and one of the most dapper and fascinating best guests, John Day. Uh someone may or may not have called him the Silver Fox, now replacing Anderson Cooper uh in in that category. But John Day, um, is there going to be a trial in this case? Uh, do you think that eventually this Blair Burke is going to have to cut some sort of plea deal? I mean, this is looking real bad. Uh, if you want to answer that in your final thoughts here, >> it's, you know, they charge it first-degree murder with the California special circumstances, the lying in weight and killing a witness to a crime.
I mean, uh, what else, unless what what offer does the the state make? what offer does the defense take? Um you if you're the defense, unless you're pleading straight up to it, um you're going to trial, but uh you know, like I said, the laundry list, the Amazon order, everything else in there is just is just so difficult to put a defense together. But you know, real quick, watching that video, I mean, I'm old enough to remember Ted Bundy. All right?
And you watch the Ted Bundy interviews, the Ted Bundy video. I mean, the guy was a lawyer, which is unfortunate, of course, but he was so smooth. He was so personable. He was so on all the time, and that kind of made me think of watching Ted Bundy videos, um, you know, back in the old days. So, um, this is going to be from a defense perspective, I don't know what the heck you do.
>> Yeah. Um, Dr. Aliko Tabori, a forensic psychologist, uh, based out of Los Angeles, she's got to get out of there before it's too late. Um, I love LA. My wife's from LA. Um, got some they've got some issues to work through in LA, but I guess all big cities do. Uh, Dr. Dbori, um, I mean, from your perspective as a forensic psychologist, how do you encapsulate what we just discussed? What was what was really going on here? I mean, they say uh the prosecution that he threatened to disclose uh that she Celeste threatened to this a direct quote here from the brief that Celeste threatened to disclose damaging information to end his career and destroy his life. I mean, I think that and I'll ask Dr. Cooiola about that, but that's probably what made this guy snap again, giving him a label. But, uh just from your perspective as a forensic psychologist, it's got to be a fascinating study. What is your takeaway?
you know, it's everything is just this is a very very sad case and and you know, it it's a very disorganized crime. It's a very um you're dealing with very young young people who aren't thinking straight. I mean, this this guy is six months older than my daughter and you know, she just spent 45 minutes looking for her wallet.
I mean, that's like, you know, what you would expect. Not somebody who's like chopping up a girl in a an inflatable pool. Um, you know, and it is really concerning. Um, you know, these aren't mature people at all. Um, and you know, I don't I I you know, I'm I'm interested in watching what happens, but you know, it's not just a murder charge.
You're looking at a you know, a a child sex offense, right? And so it's, you know, if it goes to trial, if it goes in that direction, you're really just looking for where he would do the due time that would be, you know, least detrimental to him. Um, you know, being a child sex offender, you're at the bottom of the totem pole in the prison system.
>> You know, you you you don't survive that one.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's also uh these are aggravating circumstances. I mean, John Day, what are you're from LA originally.
Uh, what are the actual chances that this could turn into a death penalty case in the county of Los Angeles?
>> I mean, you know, it depends on the California what the DA is thinking. Now, you know, that came up in the Nick Riner case.
Obviously, that's not a classic or clear-cut case for capital punishment.
Many reasons. This one, you know, I I mean, you haven't seen that many executions in California. It depends on um the the mood of the community basically. I doubt this is, you know, going to be the the one that that breaks through. Um but it's uh this is this is a case with the special circumstances with the first degree. Again, if there is a trial, I mean, my heart goes out to good defense lawyers who are doing this, you know, because they believe in the system, but I'd rather be the prosecutor on this case.
Yeah, 100%. Um, does Celeste COE I'm not sure. Does she have a does the family have a GoFundMe? If she has some sort of um way to help the family, the COE will put it into the show summary and you can go there and grab it. Uh, last but certainly not least, Dr. Christine Coachola. She is an expert uh in coercive control. Um, I guess, uh, this is horrific and there's really no silver lining at all, but if we were to create one, and I sort of asked you this earlier, um, what is something positive that we can take away from this horrible story?
Well, you know, I think what's happening and it's actually again like you said horrific, but even with the Shan Pitty Combmes like case and everything, course of control is getting elevated in the vernacular and we really need it to because we need people to stop looking through the violent incident model and we need to really understand that there's character traits oftent times that make people behave a certain way.
And I just think, you know, maybe the silver lining is that we're talking about it more and we're actually looking at people through different lenses instead of just assuming by the way mental illness wrong. You know, assuming I don't know, um, good father did horrific act. No, actually looking at the character traits, the p it's always about patterns. It's a pattern of behavior to exert power and control over another person. So, um, maybe that's the good news here is that we're talking about it and we're beginning to recognizing it and and child predators, that's exactly what they're doing. So, and as you know, that's a conversation we're having a lot of lately.
>> I don't know how smart I consider myself, but I'm fairly educated and uh, prior to hosting this show had no real idea at all what course of control was or what it was about. I'm also the son of two uh, you know, a psychiatrist and a social worker and uh, but I'm learning here. Maybe if the public learns that is a positive positive step forward. Uh as you know, we're very victim oriented here uh at STS. Uh it's all about her.
Uh it's not about uh the guy. Uh her life was literally just ripped away from her and God only knows what she could have gone on uh to do. And sadly uh this is not um the only case. I mean just today um I sent Phil Waters a couple of stories. There's a guy in Houston murdered his entire family and his pregnant wife. Why? I'm not exactly sure, but it sounds like maybe she didn't want anything to do with him anymore and uh he decided to stop things uh in a very horrific way. So, this unfortunately goes on all the time. Um that is my soap box, but uh let's try to take something positive away from it.
Tomorrow night, we are going to get off this story. go back to Nancy Guthrie again with two uh Pimac County law enforcement officials and the great Phil Ramos, the patriarch uh the godfather of true crime. He will be here tomorrow.
Until then, love you America. Thank you to Dr. Aliko Tori. Love you LA. Love you Santa Fe, New Mexico, John Day, and love you Connecticut and Dr. Christian Coola.
Guess stick around one second.
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