@bart-kay Speaks to a Psychologist About Stress !!!

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-06

[00:00:02]Ah, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls and super intelligence, small yellow teddy bears. Yes, you go and do your thing, Ted. There's a good boy. Um, very exciting actually. I don't usually do this kind of thing, but Jay suggested we do this and I was absolutely on board with what he's got planned for us. It's something quite different, isn't it, Jay? Tell us about you and what we're doing.

[00:00:25]>> Excellent. Yeah. Uh Kart, thanks so much for having me on here today. It really is exciting to sort of share and and educate the world about this thing called ustress. So I'm Jay, an organizational um psychologist. I study stress and I don't really study how to reduce it, but how it actually works as part of the human response system. And my work focus is on ustress, what people call good stress. But really, it's about how we engage with demand and use that activation to explore, take action, build capability rather than just cope with it. So at a base level, I see stress as the the sort of mobilization and alloc allocation of metabolic energy in response to a demand. And that's not good or bad. It just is the system, the human response system turning on. So I asked the real question in terms of what does the system do with that energy?

[00:01:25]And so uh I thought the conversation today from your own point of view and stuff like that is somewhat of a uh an opportunity to educate your audience in terms of that stress response, that physiological non-specific response to a demand and really just what's happening in that activation of the system. And uh obviously there's a lot of metabolic energy and metabolism that is used to manage that stress response, that human response. And I thought we could talk through that and then later in the conversation bring some of that psychology as to that framing and that appraisal that actually determines whether this thing is good or bad. How's that sound?

[00:02:02]>> Perfect. I've just had a situation where I was dealing with a situation that I was playing a role as I do online. I was in a debate situation in the last hour with a very young man who has exactly zero background in the field that he was trying to argue with me in a field that I've spent 20 years in academia teaching, researching, and gaining a quite significant understanding of a boy with an ego problem.

[00:02:37]um a theologue and frankly an insulent little boy and my there's two ways I could approach that. I could approach that as you and I are speaking right now. And that's how I started out with it, knowing full well that I would go through the gears because that's the act I play. And it starts out with, you know, a cool calm discussion like this. And it ends up at the end with me going, "You're out of here, sunshine. Bye-bye. You're wasting our time. You're an imbecile. You're not listening. You're not answering the question. You're answering a different question. This is not Monday morning reports with Christopher Lux and the prime minister. You're a you're a young boy who's making claims that are demonstrably false and I'm pointing them out sort of thing. And yeah, so this will be an interesting discussion in that regard, I think.

[00:03:35]Yeah, >> that's a that's a nice segue in terms of what you encountered obviously was a stressful encounter. there's a mobilization and allocation of your metabolic energy towards this conversation that you're having with this person and in the end you saw on the one hand well there's a loss there's a framing there that it's a bit of a waste of time there's a distress if you sort of think about in terms of that psychological concept but at the same time you still had that opportunity to clarify and make sort of um some sense of remedy or some sense of growth and development from that opportunity that you had with that conversation. So there's always those two framings that we can bring but end of the day it was still that same stress physiological response to attending to that demand.

[00:04:16]Run us through that. What was what was actually happening in your body as you were having that conversation?

[00:04:21]>> Well, as it is, I start out the conversation knowing full well that my knowledge in the field that we were debating is second to none in the world. I genuinely believe that that the arguments that I have actually put forward publicly previously are unassailable.

[00:04:45]In fact, so I'm sitting here having a full plan of exactly how I'm going to attack this boy, how I'm going to show him up, how I'm going to make him look like the silly little boy that he is.

[00:05:03]But knowing that my audience expects me to play a certain role. They expect me to start out like you and I are talking now and we will continue to talk this way cuz there's no threat here.

[00:05:14]But they expect me to go through the gears and end up swearing at him and eventually kicking him out of the studio.

[00:05:25]So I'm under pressure to play that role because that's what my audience if I don't do that they go like what the hell is this? We're here.

[00:05:34]>> We're here to see this boy being eviscerated by this by the professor, you know. Um, >> where's the Professor Bart moment? We We want to sort of see him unleash.

[00:05:43]>> Exactly. But I mean, how was I feeling physiologically?

[00:05:48]My heart rate never got over 100.

[00:05:50]>> Mhm.

[00:05:52]>> Um, >> still above the resting though. Like your resting would be 60, no doubt. uh close to that but when you're online on camera it can get up close to 100 >> without doing anything else.

[00:06:02]>> That would be I think that would be psychological activation.

[00:06:05]>> That would be you know the whole >> um that side of the nervous system getting you ready for whatever you know might be coming even though you know full well that you can handle whatever the boy's going to throw at you.

[00:06:19]Um, I mean the whole thing that started was he made a video where he was suggesting that something I had said about a not very well understood part of the metabolic biochemistry as if he's some kind of expert on it at 21 years of age for goodness sake with no study, no qualification.

[00:06:39]>> A couple years younger than us.

[00:06:41]>> Exactly. Um, he described me in his video as someone who's, get this, speaks like a woman going through menopause and looks rough for 50.

[00:06:56]>> Wow.

[00:06:57]>> So, >> does his mother know he talks about pe women at that age about going through menopause?

[00:07:02]>> Well, I did suggest to him that he should probably go to the dictionary and look up misogynist.

[00:07:12]I also asked him, you know, what was his exact experience with women in menopause? And he said, well, my mom, this population of one, >> oh my god. And then he basically threw a whole bunch of other accusations at me based on his miscomprehension of the defer def the dictionary definition of a number of words. It was hilarious.

[00:07:37]>> Yeah. What's interesting there um B is to unpack just that response that you had to like you called it a threat and uh and a threat to some sort of sense of um all right I think I'm uh correct on this one and this person is going to challenge that in some sense you also talked about pressure you talked about the idea that you had encountered the demand and that you had the resources you had the knowledge you had the background in order to be able to take on or fight and so we've all heard the fight and flight response to stress But you had that ability to fight or approach or um explore the opportunity in front of you because of the resources that you are able to allocate >> based on your predictions. Your brain being able to predict that environment um and come to that conversation in a way that you were challenged >> but yet the physiological response was still there, right? It was still stress.

[00:08:28]>> It's autonomic, isn't it?

[00:08:30]>> Nice. Tell us about that. What's that autonomic? Well, that's when the nervous system sets the physiology up in a certain way to prepare the body and the mind and if you like the spirit, if you believe in that kind of stuff, to respond to what I'm calling a threat.

[00:08:53]>> Now, when I say threat, I don't necessarily mean a thing that I genuinely believe could get through.

[00:09:00]>> Mhm.

[00:09:01]Because as I've sort of outlined in terms of an argument about the science of biochemistry with an untrained 21-year-old boy is not going to go well for him. There's no two ways about that.

[00:09:16]>> You know, he is not going to make a scratch on me.

[00:09:19]>> He showed up to a um a gunfight with a knife.

[00:09:22]>> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Um um >> that's really interesting. Can I can I just I'm going, you know, as the psychologist in the room, I'm going to pull out the mental fallacy here. So, it was um the idea of something being a threat or something being an opportunity to gain or a benefit is a psychological um framing, right? That is that something you've learned. What is the actual physiological response that's going on? And you said automic. So, there is no really there's no um description of that encounter. Your body is just automatically responding, turning on that sympathetic system to actually activate to a stress or to something in its environment that is actually turning on your physiological system.

[00:10:10]>> Yeah.

[00:10:11]>> So without sort of calling it threat or benefit or something like that, what more is happening in that autonomic system in terms of that non-specific response to a demand?

[00:10:21]>> Um, well, I guess that's what you're going to fill in for us really. I mean, my my attempts at describing, you know, you could call it threat and then I've kind of qualified to it's not really a threat because you know I don't feel vulnerable.

[00:10:39]The threat to me is okay.

[00:10:44]My audience expects me to play this role. They expect me to develop the argument in this way. They're probably playing along knowing what I'm going to say next because they've seen me have these discussions with people before and I'm quite predictable.

[00:10:58]Um, and the threat to me is, what if one day I just want to do this differently?

[00:11:04]What if I don't want to play the game?

[00:11:05]What if I don't want to play that character anymore? What if I just want to actually sit down with this boy and help him understand how destitute he is of knowledge, comprehension, wisdom, or even common sense, how arrogant he is, and help him because he desperately needs help, this boy. but instead I'm expected to tear the board bits.

[00:11:38]>> It's it's interesting there because what you're sort of saying is there's this physiological response, same physiology.

[00:11:42]It doesn't matter what that demand is, but you're telling me now about a growth opportunity, opportunity to educate. Um there's some benefit, there's some gain, there's there's a um there's a win-win here >> and the risk benefit analysis is that there is an opportunity for benefit versus cost.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah. Is that the cause and effect that um I've heard you talk about on this show when we sort of constantly are thinking about all right I've got the the causes this person is um going to present some argument the effect is that I want to educate >> and you have a probability that you can do that >> yes and and the frustration for me is my desire my want to educate if I put on this garb and I present the facts and I behave professorally and I just teach the material to the best of the understanding of the epistemology that exists.

[00:12:37]>> Mhm.

[00:12:40]>> Nobody clicks. Nobody wants to see that.

[00:12:43]Nobody wants to be educated.

[00:12:46]They want to be shocked, titilated.

[00:12:54]They want to be offended and they want to hate on me for being the character that's doing that to this young man.

[00:13:02]All right. And I'm like I'm I'm playing the bad guy in the movie. I'm the guy that everybody hates in real life for playing the bad guy in a movie sort of thing.

[00:13:12]>> But we don't go to the movies where it's all good guys. Hold on. Wasn't there a movie called Good Guys?

[00:13:18]>> Watch it.

[00:13:18]>> A few good men. You can't handle the truth.

[00:13:22]>> They weren't all good guys. as it turns out.

[00:13:24]>> No, no, we like the bad. Was it the bad, the mad, the sad, and the glad. And we really do like the bad character.

[00:13:30]>> So, that's the essential tension. If there's any stress or distress, cuz stress and distress are not the same.

[00:13:38]I'm sure we'll talk about that, too.

[00:13:39]>> Yep.

[00:13:40]>> If there is a distress, it's me feeling trapped into playing a role that I really don't want to play anymore. Mhm.

[00:13:50]>> I want to actually get to doing the educating and I want people to go, "This is a really good educator who really knows his stuff." And my hardcore audience get that. They understand that. They know that because I've seen it a 100 times.

[00:14:05]But nonetheless, I've also become by my own desire to want to sort of jumpst start the queue and be more notable on YouTube sooner. I have now become type cast as that character that's going to do that. And if I don't do it, it's like, ah, why did we just watch that? God, I didn't want to be educated.

[00:14:30]>> Uhoh. Oh, well, let's see what the clips come out of this one when we talk more about what is the uh ustress versus distress conversation we're having. And what I'm noticing here is um a part of you stress that is you have this demand and on the one hand it's this person in front of you but then it's the the idea that you have to um present to your audience in a way that you want the audience to actually um click on your videos and stuff like that. So that creates another level of complexity um in terms of that layering of what that demand is for you that's going on your head. But what I'm hearing in terms of ustress and what good stress is is there's some adaptation.

[00:15:07]And so the body obviously um as you understand from that physiological response is continually adapting to those demands and on the terms of that is this what was it this parasympathetic response where we're looking for this sort of homeostasis of like putting things back to balance and looking for that ease in life when in fact that's not it at all right I mean your growth and adaptation and and development comes from actually having those pressures put on you and what a opportunity to be one engaged and excited and uh thinking about this can actually go somewhere if I find that win-win. If I find that audience win and if I find the education win somewhere there's a balance there and you're still on that journey to discover it or explore it which sounds like to me you stress good stress the demands are still there but there's an opportunity here for a win.

[00:15:55]>> Yeah. And then if there is a distress around what I'm doing online, the distress is in that while playing that character got me started more quickly. It was click baity. People were like, "Oh, this guy's, you know, you got to see this guy. He's just tearing these people to bits and swearing at them and all of that."

[00:16:16]And yes, it did. It did get me started and it did mean that I got this notoriety, but it that very same thing is now a handbreak to my wider acceptability, my wider audience retention. So, I've had to take on a consultant to help me remodel the main of my five or six different YouTube channels that I run and clean that channel up and present videos on that channel which are commercially attractive, which get people to click, which are educational without any of the characterization.

[00:16:54]Um, a quick list of 10 things, exciting stuff, blah blah blah, music and lights and flashing things and different camera angles and all the stuff that I absolutely revile doing.

[00:17:06]Um, but that's kind of the way around. The distress is the lack of progress cuz the handbrake now is that it's a cult thing that people want to see this character. And I think I've attracted most of those people that I'm going to because the growth rate's been incredibly slow for a couple of years.

[00:17:28]So now I'm okay now I've got to change my game again.

[00:17:32]Um and then you know the sort of again we talk about threat. The threat of that is that the people that expect that won't accept me not doing that even if I separated out on different channels.

[00:17:43]They're like a terrible you've changed man. It used to be about the music and stuff. This should be all about the teddy bear.

[00:17:51]>> It is all about the teddy bear. Yes.

[00:17:53]Well, >> you've um you've you've you've highlighted a really good point there, B. And there's to life. There is no escaping the stress unfortunately. I mean, there's the cost of every single day. And our metabolic energy is only what 29,000 days to live. And how we use that stress wisely is actually probably more what matters as opposed to just getting to the end of the um of the race. And so you're talking about there's a bit of a cost here in terms of the distress. You can't escape that.

[00:18:19]Life is about coping to some extent.

[00:18:21]There's these demands that are placed on us that we just don't like. I mean, I have to get out of bed in the morning and actually um, you know, brush myself and make myself look presentable. I mean, a lot of people think that's actually a bit of a burden, but that's just the cost of living to actually get along in society. But at the same time, there's a benefit there that you're talking about in terms of the, you know, what's the gain, what's the opportunity, is this worth the effort, and it's meaningful. And I think that meaning and that value that you're sort of putting here is um some states um some sense helps make that sort of stress um okay makes it good but there's still a cost that becomes pathological. What's the what's that sort of point in for you when you know you think too much of a burden here too much of a handbreak it's just killing me and it's going to put me in a grave sooner. What's what's that about in terms of that that pathological distress uh or chronic distress that most people refer to?

[00:19:15]>> Yeah, for me there is a tradeoff between doing the thing I don't really want to do, playing the role I don't really want to play.

[00:19:27]As long as the payoff for doing that supports the lifestyle that I want to have when I'm not at work.

[00:19:38]When it gets to a point where it struggles to do that, the benefit that offsets the stress of doing the thing that I don't want to do means that the stress of doing the thing that I don't want to do becomes front and center because I can't offset that by focusing on the benefit because the benefit isn't coming to fruition or at least not to the level that I want it to.

[00:20:03]UG then I need to remodel. I need to change things. I need to get a consultant on board. I need to pay for that. I need to change things around.

[00:20:12]And change is one of those things I'm not great at.

[00:20:18]>> Yeah. Well, what I'm hearing though is you what you are good at is putting in play an evaluative feedback mechanism that lets you know whether you're making progress or marking time.

[00:20:28]>> And it lets you know that am I going backwards or am I going forwards? And that we can we can put a lot of things on ourselves that are actually not good for our um metabolic health, right? We can be quite pathological in some of those stress oils that we take on those demands and we burn the midnight oil and everybody understands the stress. What is it therefore you do in order just to know that you know what you can't get away from some of that that that loss and that harm their everyday sort of exposure to the stress on the metabolic energy and having to think there's a cost to breathing. um what do you do in terms of just making sure that you are caring for the self and the physiological response and and you know probably what I'm talking about here getting into that recovery.

[00:21:11]>> Yeah. Okay. So for me I mean I'm in a position now where we bought a farm.

[00:21:20]>> Mhm.

[00:21:20]>> That'll be great. They said buy a farm.

[00:21:23]>> Hold on. Don't say more stress but >> Oh my god.

[00:21:28]We've now been trying to be farmers for um what is it 16 17 months or so. Uh in that time we have had two floods that were touted as 200ear floods and they were separated by 14 days.

[00:21:47]So there's something wrong with the math on the 200 year thing.

[00:21:53]Either that or we're now safe for the next 400 years.

[00:21:57]>> Oh, that's it. Let's let's look at that.

[00:21:58]>> Put your money on that one.

[00:21:59]>> Uh or they're lying to us about, you know, how often we can expect floods of that magnitude. So that >> Oh my gosh, they're getting climate change wrong. Stop it.

[00:22:08]>> 100% perfect on this.

[00:22:10]>> Exactly. Um so there's that. Um there's coming to the realization that when you take on a dilapidated farm property and try to rebuild it and make systems work and stuff with no experience, there is no getting on top of that. It's painting the harbor bridge. So it's getting zen with that. But in terms of the recreation thing, I can step out of this office that I'm in right now, which is a metal box in the yard by the way.

[00:22:41]That's why the sound quality is poor for those that don't get that.

[00:22:45]>> Um, and the reason for that is cuz we now have a whole bunch of people in the house that weren't in the house previously because a close family member had a serious medical condition and now she needs extra help. So now we've got the extended family here. So I'm in a box in the yard. So that's another, you know, good good story. But >> there's a there's a story here, B around somebody's garage in the yard. There's a New Zealand show that maybe you need to sort of get on that. Yeah, maybe >> the man in his garage. What's What's the conversation?

[00:23:13]>> Oh, I forget something like that. But anyway, the recreation thing that you were talking about, I can step out of here, this office and I can take a walk around the farm and listen to the wind and the insects and the breeze rushing through the long grass and find a caterpillar or something or, you know, just smell a rose cuz we got some of those. um go and say hello to my friends, the sheep and the cows. They get me. They understand. Those guys do.

[00:23:50]Um >> that's what be cool. Um what what in terms of the ustress or the uh prolonging that sort of dopamine hit, right, about the the good things that we're winning or even sometimes being able to sort of take a step away is being able to count your blessings. And yeah, >> there's that sabering um of the achievement that you have recently sort of garnered in life from putting your effort and your exertion and your metabolic energy towards something. And you got to stop you got to stop every now and then and go, hm, what am I grateful for? What have I what have I won? What have I sort of benefited from um all this energy? Because if you don't do that, you'll have this duration and cost that will eventually burn you out.

[00:24:30]>> Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Um, so you know that's the recreation. I can go and play cricket once a week in the summer and go and interact with those people that I enjoy spending time with in the cricket team and the cricket club setup.

[00:24:49]Um, we have outdoor activities type toys and things we could go and do. We don't have time to go and do that, but we we have all the gears >> and no ideas. Yeah, >> you know, we've got a we've got a a sea kayak, a two person sea kayak that we can not only the two of us, but also two dogs can can be there and do that. Um, I can go and pat the dogs. I can go and w to the dogs about how terrible everything is.

[00:25:23]It's interesting like you sort of say that sea kayaking for example is is a method of sort of considering recovery or the way to actually sort of escape the the demands of um this conversation you had with this bloke earlier today when in fact if you think about hopping on a sea kayak and starting to sort of paddle and actually be stuck out in the middle of an ocean where potentially any fatal slip there you're dead um is your um is your way of actually sort of recovering from stress what you've done is one stress to another stress stress, but we don't talk of it as stress, but it in fact is stress >> andor going and facing the fastest bowler in the league.

[00:26:02]>> Yes.

[00:26:03]Protecting the ghoulies, cuz that would be really distressing if you got hit there.

[00:26:08]>> I can tell you about that, too, if you like.

[00:26:11]>> Maybe you could point out on Teddy just where you got hit.

[00:26:13]>> Where did the nasty cricket ball hit you?

[00:26:18]>> Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Okay. It's not where daddy touches you. By the way, >> I'm I'm always saying to people like people often say to me, for example, from my area, they say, "Cortisol is a stress hormone." And I say, >> "No, it isn't.

[00:26:34]>> Cortisol, >> cortisol is a hormone that has multiple roles in the human body."

[00:26:39]>> Yes, stress is one of those things that can activate the production of cortisol.

[00:26:43]However, >> who said that you want to be stress free? Because right >> stress free >> is dead.

[00:26:51]>> Oh wait, tell us about that. What? No.

[00:26:54]>> If you have no stress, you are dead.

[00:26:57]>> So stress is delivers to stress.

[00:27:01]>> I think the the analogy that we can use probably is that a change is as good as a rest. So what you're talking about, go and sit in the sea kayak, watch a 5ft shark breach and jump right next to you and go that was interesting.

[00:27:18]>> Um conversation with a guy in the morning.

[00:27:22]>> Yeah.

[00:27:22]>> Yeah.

[00:27:23]>> I mean a different kind of threat.

[00:27:25]>> Yes.

[00:27:26]>> Very different kind of threat.

[00:27:27]Absolutely. And but I I I think what you you correct me if I'm wrong, but what you might be alluding to is the the underlying physiology, the way the body reacts to any perception of threat, stress, whatever you want to call it, is not necessarily any different. The only difference is what the stress is and what the outcome of that is in terms of actual threat to one's life, livelihood or whatever. I guess >> it's a rich tapestry.

[00:28:01]>> It is a rich tapestry. We call it a complex rubric is a fancy in >> complex rubric.

[00:28:07]>> Complex rubric in the street.

[00:28:08]>> I love it when you talk dirty.

[00:28:12]I um that is actually in one of my come on lines.

[00:28:15]>> Is it does it work?

[00:28:16]>> Yeah. Oh, sure. Like can I take you home and let's work out the complex rubric how we might get together.

[00:28:22]>> Right.

[00:28:24]>> No, it doesn't work.

[00:28:24]>> I don't I don't believe that works ever.

[00:28:26]No. No. I think I think you're pulling my leg.

[00:28:30]>> Part of the complex rubric though. We can see where it goes.

[00:28:33]>> Yep. That's it. M >> it's interesting like when you talk about stress what we got to be um mindful of is that stress is that um natural wear and tear of the human response system. So it is the non-specific response to a demand and that demand in of itself is breathing right. So and if people think oh hold on breathing is not a demand. Well let me chuck you in the middle of the ocean um and let's see how long before you actually start thinking breathing is really really important. Yeah, >> because it certainly does become one of those uh goal attended sort of um alistasis sort of requirements where we put our attention to that demand if it's going to be the last thing that we get to do that's going to actually keep us alive >> and so we uh and but then from then on our human behavior gets a lot more complex you know the demands like you said on the one hand I've got a demand of an audience who actually requiring all these um outputs from me in terms of the way that I present and then there's this opportunity to educate as well and that complexity creates more of that stress that we have to face and as a result um that wear and tear on that that on the human response system is just as much from that thinking as it is from facing that um shark in the water that you actually had to deal with. They're both still that demand on our attention that demand on our resources and capacity to um attend to that demand is actually no different.

[00:29:56]But what happens is when that energy meets that demand, what happens with that perception, what happens with the allocation of our attention is where we start getting into the psychology of of what matters. And it's not that this this uh energy is there. It's it's something matters to us and therefore how we perceive it will determine whether it's good or bad.

[00:30:19]>> All right. Well, in that case, tell me what's important because I need to know.

[00:30:24]Well, um what's interesting around uh stress is depending on who you read and if you go and read the stress literature, there's 60,000 articles on what bad stress is, on what distress is.

[00:30:37]And if we just talk about stress like we have today, most people think stress is bad. I >> mean >> stress is going to kill me.

[00:30:44]>> And indeed it will. When when is it when does stress kill us? But from a physiological point of view, what's what's that process in terms of stress will kill you, >> right? When the homeostatic mechanism finally fails, >> right? So exhaustion >> if you like. Yep.

[00:31:03]Uh so there's a um there's a demand then there's a body alerts to that demand allocates some resources um to that demand and if that demand doesn't then get some um respite or we don't get some uh some recovery from that we become exhausted we die.

[00:31:19]>> Yeah.

[00:31:20]>> Isn't that life doesn't happen over like 29,000 days?

[00:31:25]>> Yeah. If you're lucky.

[00:31:27]>> If you're lucky.

[00:31:29]>> Some people don't get that long.

[00:31:30]>> No they don't actually. That's right.

[00:31:32]29,000 days is the average lifespan, >> right?

[00:31:36]>> 82 years of age is if anyone's ever done the math, it's real easy. 365 times 82 >> is the number of days you get to actually breathe. And so we >> Oh, true, true, true, true.

[00:31:51]>> Here's me being pedantic. I guess because I'm very pedantic, me, J, I'm also completely unreasonable and I speak like a woman going through menopause.

[00:32:00]Um, and now you know because you had the um the guy earlier, the 21-year-old, telling you what it's like to be a menopausic um woman >> or what they look like.

[00:32:09]>> Oh, how insightful. Gosh, I wish I uh Yeah, I think we could all probably be educated with that and that would help me probably work with my mother better.

[00:32:17]>> Yeah. Well, there it is.

[00:32:19]>> There was a interesting podcast on the other night. So when we get backing and get back to this idea of the shark in the water versus the guy that you're talking to this morning on the one hand there's this friction there's this um cost without return which is this vicious friction. So friction is the is the response on the uh on the human response or the demand on that um human system and it's got some sort of like tension there and it can be quite vicious. It can be quite distressing. It can be that threat harm loss to the human system. It requires a lot of metabolic energy in order to attend to that, especially if we're running away from a saber-tooth tiger, for example, and we don't have the spear at hand um to actually deal to it or the shark sort of jumps up on your uh on on your um what do you call it? Sea kayak and you don't actually have your knife at hand sort of thing. I'm going to stab this thing.

[00:33:08]>> And that a lot of energy sort of gets used to um wards sort of like coping or dealing with that distress. But there's also this virtuous friction where that you know what I did actually have the knife and I did actually have all the resources I needed to tend or to kill that bloody shark that jumped up on my um kayak and as a result I got a good feed for the tribe. You know I was able to sort of like bring in the shark and everyone got a sort of good meal. So you there's this virtuous friction which just because you had those resources or that allocated um opportunity alasis that opportunity to sort of predict that you were going to deal with the shark you brought those resources to bear and as a result there's this benefit as a result of attending to that demand which would otherwise kill you.

[00:33:50]>> Sure with the caveat in my case that I also consider the situation from the point of view of the shark.

[00:33:59]>> Oh right. Didn't want to hurt the shark.

[00:34:01]>> That's right. Yes.

[00:34:03]>> However, that particular shark this morning who was not a very th you know a toothless shark obviously um really gave me no option.

[00:34:18]But do I feel good about the fact that that shark is now toast?

[00:34:24]I don't know. Perhaps not.

[00:34:26]>> I think your audience do though. That's what I think part of the uh that complexity is in the stress rubric that we're talking about is that people want to see you kill the shark. At least the shark bite your arm off too by the way.

[00:34:38]>> You could allow that to happen.

[00:34:39]>> Well, that that'd be happy either way. I mean, you know, >> B got eaten.

[00:34:44]>> Yeah, >> that would be a fun show.

[00:34:45]>> Let's face it, my most of my audience are there for a dumpster fire >> and that's what they want to see.

[00:34:51]>> They want to see the shark on the boat.

[00:34:53]>> That's right. How does he handle this one, you know? Yeah. Okay.

[00:34:57]>> Yeah. It's interesting that that's that vicious friction, right? People like seeing vicious friction in other people's world.

[00:35:04]>> Um but not in their own world.

[00:35:06]Obviously, that's stressful and we need to cope with that. Um but gosh, I love seeing other people having to sort of deal with that.

[00:35:12]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:14]>> That's the internet, isn't it?

[00:35:15]>> Well, it is. And it's it's very much the YouTube edutainment entertainment >> modulus by which I gain my audience to do whatever you know business I want to do with those people either on or off that platform.

[00:35:31]Um I guess the difference between myself and and many people is I have somewhat not not perfect but I have somewhat of an identific memory and as such I remember being a young man of that boy's age with an ego problem of a similar kind.

[00:35:51]So, you know, it's not at all a personal thing. And had somebody responded to me the way I responded to him today, as they did, people my age now then, you know, my thoughts about them was that, well, they just don't understand.

[00:36:07]They're a terrible person. And, you know, I was completely unable to grasp that actually the fault was entirely with me >> at that time. M >> um in other words, you know, I was arrogant at that time and did not have the background that would lead me to be able to speak authoritatively on any topic, let alone to think myself remotely equipped to have a battle of wits with a former senior academic with 20 plus years experience in the particular field that I want to tell him he's wrong about.

[00:36:46]Choose your battle.

[00:36:48]>> Wow. I mean, I had an ego problem, but not that bad.

[00:36:51]>> Yeah.

[00:36:52]>> But my point is, I understand where the boy's coming from.

[00:36:55]>> And he'll get the hits, too. He'll get the hits. He'll get the >> He's trying to make his way and he's trying to be, you know, notable online and, you know, I've given him a platform to do that a bit.

[00:37:06]>> You bet.

[00:37:08]>> It's interesting. But what we're getting to here now, and just sort of like recognizing that we've probably only got another 15 minutes to wrap this up, is we've got the same heart rate attending to either the shark on the boat or that gentleman this morning. Same activation in terms of that physiology.

[00:37:23]>> Yeah.

[00:37:24]>> One adapts, one breaks.

[00:37:26]>> Yeah.

[00:37:27]>> What explains that difference?

[00:37:31]>> I think that's a complex rubric.

[00:37:34]>> It is.

[00:37:35]>> I I think it's it's it's a balance between Not act not even actual resources necessarily although actual resources do come into it but one's perception of one's resources cuz the way you view a thing makes your reality what it is in a lot of respects.

[00:37:56]It's the whole thing about if you believe yourself to be incapable of something, you're right.

[00:38:03]If you talk yourself into it, >> yes, you are what you think you are.

[00:38:06]>> That's right. Um, >> although you know, you can't make yourself an expert in biochemistry by thinking you are.

[00:38:15]>> Well, I don't know. I think I can be a woman.

[00:38:17]>> Yeah, I'm I I can too. I'm I'm a menopausal woman. um a very a very unattractive one for 50 and bald because also the other thing the other thing is bald makes me makes me wrong >> and and also now bar I actually identify 10 10 years younger than I actually am physiologically because that's what >> ah all right in that case I can call you I can call you son or young man can't >> you can you can call me young man and that's probably my preferred pronoun so young man J >> yes >> sounds like one of the um young man what's that song >> YMCA >> what that's it I'm the gay Man, I'm the gay young man.

[00:38:52]>> Yeah.

[00:38:52]>> Okay.

[00:38:53]>> Okay. Nice. Hey, what you talking about here? You you said prediction, not reaction. Alistasis. What? Tell us about that. That's a fancy term in terms of the stress rubric. Allistasis.

[00:39:04]>> Yeah. Okay. Well, stasis refers to a thing that's held constant.

[00:39:08]>> Mhm.

[00:39:09]>> Um, aloe is a prefix which can mean several different things. Why don't you give us the the formulation from the psychological fraternity for want of a better term?

[00:39:21]>> I know that's very misogynistic.

[00:39:24]>> Yeah. So hello or allocate.

[00:39:27]>> Yeah.

[00:39:27]>> So we allocate resources to um of metabolic energy to a demand. And so allasis is the allocation of our metabolic energy to actually meet a demand um in the system or in that human response system. And uh that that activation that um alertness and then that exhaustion is the is the alostasis of the brain in some sense predicting um from its past experience what might be needed in order to attend to that demand or attend to that sort of situational encounter. And it does that pre subconsciously, right? It does that before you're even aware um of what that resource is. And then if there's a correction in that alostasis and that um directing of energy, it's like, "Oh, hold on. I overcooked the problem. it wasn't as big as what I thought it was.

[00:40:10]Um the body or the brain makes a correction and it readjusts that sort of um metabolic sort of uh requirement next time based on that habit. So that is the brain's ability to continually make predictions based on past performance, how it's actually going to attend to its present.

[00:40:24]>> Yeah. It's like that thing where your heart rate goes up as soon as someone you care about says something as simple as we need to have a chat.

[00:40:30]>> Oh, especially at work.

[00:40:34]>> Well, at work here, this just me and him pretty much. and he runs the show with an iron fist. Don't you Ted?

[00:40:39]>> Yes.

[00:40:40]>> See, >> so that allasis or that um allocation of energy obviously is based on a long formulation and learning of uh our upbringings and our brains sort of ability to make those new connections and and then cate categorize and classify um these demands that we've actually faced through our own sort of life history. And so then really if it if if to live is to encounter demands.

[00:41:06]So to live is distress. It comes much down to our ability to actually frame or um allocate that attentional resource to what matters in a way that's going to present or be more adaptive to us in some sense. And that's and that is where we're starting to sort of get into the idea of ustress. And so when I did my PhD, I sort of unpacked well what does that good look like in terms of the attitudinal structure that people bring um to any demanding encounter and uh I've got a model that I sort of tested and uh used um in my PhD and it has two parts to it. And the first part is the gym. This is the engagement. This is the why. And the G in gym stands for gain.

[00:41:49]What's the return? Why would I put my metabolic energy towards this situation to counter? Obviously, there's going to be some benefit or some gain there for us. And the next question we ask is the E, the effort. Is it worth it? Is there something worth me getting off the couch to put my metabolic energy towards? Um, because I perceive some sense of benefit. And last but not least, the M, the meaning. Why does it matter? What's the meaning? What's the value? What's the that sense of our brains make meaning? So what is that meaning that we're actually going to make as a result of attending um to that demanding encounter in our environment? So we ask the question in the first instance is it worth or is this worth engaging? And once we sort of say yes you know this thing is actually something I want to engage in then we have to think about well how how do I engage in it? What is the action? And I refer to aces. We all need a good ace in our hand. And so the A is achieve. What's the outcome? What's the outcome we're trying to um uh pursue here? What does it achievement look like? And we all think about at work. We ideally we have a good plan. It always starts with um the end in mind. What's the outcome? And then C control. What's influencable? What can we change? What can I do something about versus what can't I do something about? You know, God give me the courage to change those things I can and the serenity to accept those things I cannot. But we in terms of our attribution and our learning, we need to know what's within our control.

[00:43:12]What are those things that are changeable versus those things are not changeable? And last but not least, and we talked about this earlier, evaluate.

[00:43:18]The E and ACE is evaluate. What's the feedback? What's the opportunity? What's the um progress that I'm making here?

[00:43:25]How have I set this up in a way that I can actually see that I'm making some headway as opposed to not getting anywhere. I'm just banging my head against the wall. And um so that model is a way um that we now are able to actually sort of set up our framing or our attitudal structure as to consider stress in terms of what is the gems and what are the aces that I have available um to engage and enable me to realize that benefit in um in this demanding encounter. And so what I've what I've just done is put that into a book to actually sort of like help people sort of realize that yes stress is the um there is no escaping it straight to liver is distress. Um how do we get more of the good stuff um given we've only got 29,000 days to stress wisely and how do we reduce um that bad stuff the distress um realizing that you know life is just not all about coping. There's this opportunity to sort of turn these demands into some sort of benefit some sort of gain and to explore and regulate how we might do that. So that's where I sort of come from in terms of like just shaping up that sort of um physiological response which we can't escape with that sort of psychological attitude as to how we might get more benefit from uh attending to life when we can sort of see the challenge and that pressure and that stress and something matters and turning that into some benefit that is actually going to sort of build capability. It's going to engage us in life and it's actually going to ultimately um lead to that life well well worth living in terms of that self-determination. And so that's where I sort of come from in terms of that stress response.

[00:44:56]>> Brilliant. Love it. Sounds like very worthwhile, very useful thing. Tell us, Jay, how do people find out more? How do they get more from you? Where do they go?

[00:45:07]>> Yeah, good question. Um, look, all I would really want now for people to be able to do is just understand ustress or how to unlock ustress and how to make it work or how to make that stress work for them. And if you go into Amazon and simply type up Unlock Ustress, uh, how to make stress work for you, you'll see my book there. It's a two-hour read. My son, he's 16 years old. He read it in two hours. He said, "Dad, I was able to read it. It was written for, um, his sort of age group. So, it's very easy to read. It's full of little stories, anecdotes, but it just really unpacks the story we've told today in terms of stresses, that natural rare and tear of the human response system. To some extent, it's signaling to us that something matters. Therefore, how do we frame it? How do we approach it? How do we explore it in terms of what those opportunities are to make some gain to put our worthy efforts to play to make some meaning of it? And then what is that ace? What is that action that we need to sort of um do um to attend to those demands and actually realize those benefits? But last, don't forget there's always this recovery. There's always recognizing that stress, whether it's good or bad, is still an adaptive response on the human response system.

[00:46:12]It's still wear and tear. it's still energy um that our metabolic um requirements are actually needing to attend to or predict. And so therefore, we need recovery, we need sleep, we need nutrition, which is something that you could tell us about in terms of the type of nutrition that we have would actually determine your stress response. Um that oxidative stress that we actually put in through the way we eat and that effect on terms of how we're able to sort of put that worthy effort towards those demands and stuff. It's very complex, but for the most part, first and foremost, just realize stress is good.

[00:46:42]Stress is the natural wear and tear of the human response system. You get 29,000 days to stress wisely.

[00:46:48]Use it in a way that actually uh you turn it into good. You turn it into benefit. You turn it into gain.

[00:46:54]>> Brilliant. Jane Mlan, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it.

[00:46:58]It's been really good to talk to someone who understands psychology a bit. Also a fellow Kiwi, which is always good cuz you know, number eight wire fixes everything.

[00:47:09]>> It does fix everything. And you know, one of our number eight Kiwi gratitude moments that we can all be proud of. And I don't know if you're watching the uh TV. I know you're from Christ Church, Bart, but our stadium in our city is just looking absolutely beautiful at the moment. It's called Auto Tahi Tok Mana.

[00:47:24]The Christ Church is in my heart. And what a beautiful looking city this is today. And we're just so lucky to have that stadium and the rugby and and you know what a what an energizing sort of weekend it was. So, yep. very much, Kiwi. Very much lucky to be living in this beautiful uh country.

[00:47:40]>> Awesome. All right. Good. Well, everybody, stick around the channel because I'm sure someone will be wrong soon. It doesn't look like slowing down anytime soon. See you. Bring it on.

[00:47:49]Ciao.