Advocate Chaskalson sat on Brown Mogotsi’s neck and he couldn’t breathe at Madlanga Commission.Watch

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[00:00:01]Can I just quickly clarify everything that you told General Mkhwanazi in your WhatsApp was false, was it not?

[00:00:16]Literally every single statement that you made to General Mkhwanazi in those WhatsApps in September, October last year was false.

[00:00:28]That's not false.

[00:00:29]There was a There was an OB entry. There was a correctional officer who was arrested with drugs. That thing was registered as an OB.

[00:00:38]Well, let's let's take them one by one then.

[00:00:42]Did you meet the complainant in the Empangeni prison case? No. No. So, that was That was a lie. No, that is true. It's not true.

[00:00:53]Sorry? Yeah, it's true. It was a lie.

[00:00:55]>> happened, yes. Yes.

[00:00:57]Did General Khumalo speak with the complainant?

[00:01:02]No, I I don't know. It was It's That That was another lie. That is a false life. That's something that I make. They never spoke. General Khumalo never spoke about him in the meeting. I was not there at all. Yeah, we can take them one by one.

[00:01:17]So, you've told two lies there. You've said you met with the complainant in the Empangeni case and the General Khumalo was also speaking to the same complainant. Did you clear with your handler and co-handler that you were going to tell these lies to to General Mkhwanazi? My handler, yeah.

[00:01:32]My handler knew when when I started talking to General Mkhwanazi. My handler knew. Your handler knew you were talking to General Mkhwanazi. Did he know that you were going to lie to him and say General Khumalo is meeting with the complainant who is setting up this defeating the ends case against you?

[00:01:49]>> No, obviously when the information of this nature comes, whoever from the name that I showed you, who's my visa will always be bought.

[00:01:59]So, Mkhize last wrote Mabuza knew that you were going to say that you were meeting with a complainant and that General Khumalo was also meeting with a complainant and that General Khumalo was trying to uh trying to set up General Mkhwanazi trying to frame General Mkhwanazi on a defeating the ends case.

[00:02:25]No, no, chair.

[00:02:27]And maybe I should give it in an example.

[00:02:31]If one is a prosecutor and instructions say the state opposes this bail, you won't tell him or go there, stand up and say you just tell him go and oppose.

[00:02:42]When you get there, you oppose the bail.

[00:02:44]It doesn't that doesn't necessarily mean you give him statement by statement.

[00:02:48]This is what you're going to say, this is what you're going to I see. So, now I understand that you got a you got a broad brief from your handlers.

[00:02:55]Go and engage General Mkhwanazi. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, let me not incriminate myself on that one.

[00:03:00]>> [clears throat] >> Um Did your handlers know that you were going to say that General Khumalo had pushed a negative narrative about cashing transits in KZN and and had suggested that uh that General Mkhwanazi had his own cartel.

[00:03:19]No, I'm not going to incriminate myself.

[00:03:24]You see, did your handlers know that you were going to say that General Khan would brief General Mkhwanazi next week?

[00:03:34]Yeah, I'm not going to incriminate myself and my handlers. Did you clear with your handlers whether you could drop the name of General Khan?

[00:03:43]Uh you don't need to to clear. You When you When you work on such things you do what you have to do and then report, but perhaps I should not incriminate myself.

[00:03:55]Please.

[00:03:57]You see, in your statement, you say this was all about an attempt to gain General Mkhwanazi's confidence and trust in order to execute my mandate in terms of the task order of your handler. What was that mandate?

[00:04:11]Yeah, no.

[00:04:13]As it written in the statement, that's how it stand to going forward. Let me not incriminate myself. So, am I to understand then that this was your fishing expedition to establish whether General Mkhwanazi was working for the CIA?

[00:04:28]Let me not incriminate myself further, please. Well, I don't understand why that would incriminate yourself. You've said the only mandate that you mention in your statement is the allegation that General Mkhwanazi may be working to the CIA working for the CIA. Yeah, but now as I said, remember I I fully confirmed that the content of my statement as is shall not change, but going forward, let me not incriminate myself. So, there was no other mandate that you had in relation to General Mkhwanazi beyond the mandate in your statement. Yeah, yeah. That's That's the That's why I'm saying I don't want to incriminate myself. So, you're now saying there may be another mandate beyond the one in your statement. Yeah, of incriminating myself. Yeah, it's coming. I don't want to incriminate myself.

[00:05:15]You've now publicly apologized to General Mkhwanazi for suggesting that he may have been linked to the CIA.

[00:05:21]I did apologize. I can apologize again.

[00:05:24]Yes.

[00:05:25]And retract that that since I do not have tangible evidence, I should retract that then and that's what I've done. Um but in pursuit of that link, you were happy to tell a series of lies that were calculated uh to interfere with the the between General Mkhwanazi and General Khumalo.

[00:05:48]Were you were you not? No, >> [clears throat] >> no, let me not incriminate myself. Well, the whole purpose of your Well, the whole tenor of your WhatsApps uh was to make General Mkhwanazi suspicious of General Khumalo.

[00:06:03]Yeah, well, as long as I don't incriminate myself. I see.

[00:06:09]And you you were sowing suspicion between the provincial of KZN and General Khumalo, who is the head of the PKTT in KZN, and also the head of crime intelligence nationally.

[00:06:26]Yeah, no, [clears throat] I'm not going to incriminate myself. I see.

[00:06:30]And did your handlers approve of this, sowing and telling suspicion between General Khumalo and General Mkhwanazi?

[00:06:36]Yeah, maybe. I Please, let me not incriminate myself.

[00:06:41]And did you receive specific approval from any handler, co-handler, or Brigadier Duma to do this?

[00:06:51]Well, like I said, if it comes from him, he knew.

[00:06:55]So, uh somehow he knew he knew Who knew?

[00:07:00][clears throat] The same person I wrote in the book.

[00:07:03]Oh, I see.

[00:07:05]A dead person.

[00:07:11]It would be I have I've I've I agreed I've accepted that they have passed.

[00:07:15]Mhm.

[00:07:18]And so so he knew that you were going to tell lies about General Khumalo to General Mkhwanazi and make General Mkhwanazi believe that General Khumalo was trying to frame him.

[00:07:33]No, I'm not me I may not incriminate myself, please.

[00:07:38]And to General Sibiya?

[00:07:40]Yeah, I'm not going to incriminate myself.

[00:07:43]General Khan I'm not going to incriminate myself.

[00:07:49]You see, if we go through everything that we know that you actually did in relation to your so-called investigation what we see is time and again are you are trying to set up General Komanalu.

[00:08:14]Do you remember the episode when you wrote to the minister about the breakthrough and whether the arrest was affected?

[00:08:22]And you immediately, well not immediately, you then WhatsApped your screenshot to Mr. Magwala and asked him about iPad.

[00:08:32]I'm not going to incriminate myself.