Who is Bezalel Smotrich: the self-described messianic 'fascist' in charge of the West Bank?

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]When ME broke the story that the International Criminal Court was seeking the arrest of finance minister Betsel Smotrich, it broke across the mainstream media and got the attention of the minister himself. Facing potential charges of force displacement, persecution and apartheid. Smotrich responded petulently, pledging to retaliate not against the court, but against the very Palestinians he's accused of violating. Smart Rich exercises extraordinary power in Israel as well as minister of finance. He has a portfolio in the defense ministry that gives him de facto control in the West Bank where he has already ordered the eviction of a Bedawin village as part of his retaliation. Palestinian diplomats have been urging the ICC to act against him for years. Me revealed the prosecutor's office secretly applied for his arrest warrant in April. The ICC has not publicly confirmed this, but under court regulations, warrant applications are classified until approved. The process typically takes several months, but if accepted, it would be the first ever warrant issued by an international court for the crime of apartheid. It would also make Smottrich the third Israeli official wanted by the court along with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former defense minister Yof Galant. Smottrich has called the move a declaration of war.

[00:01:20]Today we'll show you the man behind the minister. Who is Betsel Smotrich and how has his radical rise to power affected Palestinians and Israelis. First, Palestinians. I'm joined by Palestinian physician and politician Mustapa Balguti. Mustapa, welcome back to ME Live. Now, Smottri has responded to the ICC by retaliating against Palestinians.

[00:01:44]So I have to ask, is this international community action actually helpful to the victims of his alleged war crimes?

[00:01:54]Of course, it's very helpful because finally somebody is holding this fascist and the government of Israel accountable. The problem we faced is that their crimes have been doubling and increasing every day because they don't feel any accountability to international law and they don't feel that they will pay for the crimes they are committing. So this kind of decision which of course aggravated huge anger among Snotrich and his supporters is a is a very first step.

[00:02:36]But if you think that because of that decision they would do something bad they are already doing so many bad things. They are already smri personally has been responsible for the unprecedented level of expansion of settlements. He has funded settlements.

[00:02:57]He made he was behind decisions in several by the government and uh several other laws to change the whole nature of the land and to allow expansion of settlements at a rate that is unprecedented.

[00:03:14]The man is absolutely fanatic and he believes there is no place not only for a Palestinian state but for Palestinians in general on the land of Palestine.

[00:03:25]>> Indeed, his rationale for retaliating against Palestinians, has been to call this application for an arrest warrant a declaration of war by the Palestinian Authority, who he says engaged with the ICC to provide evidence. Is that something you care to respond to?

[00:03:43]Well, if we don't turn to international law and to international institutions, then where whom should we turn to? Uh this they they they deny Palestinians the right to struggle in every possible world. where they deni although international law says that Palestinians have the right to struggle against occupation and apartheide and persecution and oppression on all possible methods. So Israel is against military of course resistance. They are against popular nonviolent resistance.

[00:04:20]They are against Palestinians trying to go to international courts and demand justice from international institutions and international law. They are against Palestinians even expressing their needs and expressing their views. So what you are talking about is an entity, a Zionist entity that wants to kill all kinds of Palestinian resistance so that it can fulfill its dreams. Now let's >> and their dream is not only land appropriation but also the total ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

[00:04:56]>> Let's just break down what that looks like in practice specifically under Smartrich and Smartrich's impact on Palestinian life up to now. The warrant application claims that he's committed forced displacement, persecution, apartheid. Um, one thing that Smatri repeatedly advocates for is what he calls the voluntary migration of Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank. This phrase does a lot of heavy lifting. What does it look like in reality?

[00:05:26]>> First of all, he's using the word voluntary to cover up the crime. What does voluntary mean? when his settler gangs, the gangs who are terrorists, who are described as terrorists even by some Israeli sources, when these guys come to Palestinian communities, especially between communities, approved their trees, uh burn their houses, burn their uh cars, uh then force them, beat them so badly and sometimes shoot them to death as they have done to 12 people and then force them by buy by by buy by guns to leave their communities. And this is so well recorded. This is so well documented.

[00:06:15]71 Palestinian communities so far undermine gangs and some of these communities were evicted more than once.

[00:06:29]The Israeli government with Smish being a finance minister in it have already evicted 40,000 Palestinian refugees who were originally evicted in 1948 from their land. They evicted them again from the refugee camps of Tulkar Janine and the Nurams after destroying these three camps and they forced them by force to be evicted.

[00:06:57]So what kind of voluntary ethnic cleansing is here? We are talking about genocide that was committed in Gaza which ended up killing 12% of the population and injuring 12% of the population of Gaza, more than 250,000 people. Apply 12% to any country. Apply it to the United States and you would be talking about 36 million Americans injured or killed in the course of two years. This is the level of crime that is committed against Palestinians. And not only that, Smrich is strangulating Palestinians economically.

[00:07:34]>> Yes, I was going to point out he's he's he's Yeah, he is also finance minister as well as exercising this power over the West Bank. That gives him the means to wage economic war as well as territorial war. He seized money from the Palestinian Authority, blocked funds for Palestinian worker visas. How devastating have his economic policies been for Palestinians?

[00:07:58]>> It has been disastrous because he first of all confiscated 5.3 mill 5.3 billion billion dollars from Palestinian from Palestinian tax revenue leaving the authority completely crippled incapable of paying the salaries of its employees.

[00:08:17]incapable of being the paying the salaries of doctors, nurses and uh uh incapable of buying medications for the sick people. Now we have cancer patients in in in Palestine without treatment because the Palestinian authority cannot buy this treatment. Uh I know that personally because my wife is one of them and uh they they have also kicked out from their jobs 250,000 workers creating a very huge problem of unemployment and add to that the fact that 1,300 military checkpoints in the West Bank block completely the freedom of movement, block completely the possibility of economic activity or trade.

[00:09:05]And in addition to that, 250 gates besiege many communities, transforming them into small presence from time to time.

[00:09:17]That is very clear. And add to that the fact that Israel is strangulating Gaza with this terrible siege where people are deprived from humanitarian assistance.

[00:09:29]>> Now, this is not a man who wants resolution with Palestinians. Smart twitchrich is very clear about that himself. He argues that West Bank Arabs have three possible responses to the current situation except the status of being Israel's subjects. Immigrate or resist violently and be punished by Israel's military. There is no room in his ideological vision for Palestinian statethood. With a man like Smutri in the cabinet, do you still believe resolution is possible?

[00:10:00]Look, when he says Palestinians have to accept to be subjects of Israel means slaves of Israel, this is the this man represents the worst formula of apartheid.

[00:10:13]And uh what he actually means is that Palestinians have two options only.

[00:10:20]Either to die or be ethnically cleansed.

[00:10:25]There is no other option. And uh uh When he does that, he's not doing it alone.

[00:10:31]He's doing it with Bing. He's doing it with Netanyahu. This is the official Israeli policy. Practically since more than maybe 15 years or more, the Israeli establishment and the Zionist movement has sent only one message to Palestinians and to the world, which is that they have no place for any compromise with the Palestinians.

[00:10:58]The Oslo horrible agreement was about a possibility of a compromise. They killed it. The whole idea of two-state solution which was sort of imposed on Palestinians and they accepted it with great pain because it meant that they would accept a state in only 22% of the land while the UN gave Palestinians 44% of the land at a time when Palestinians owned 93% of the land. Regardless of this big concession from the Palestinian side, Netanyahu and Pingvir and Smrich are saying no, no place for any inch for Palestinians. So, Israel long time ago has decided that there is no possibility for a compromise between them and the Palestinians. So, that illusion is over.

[00:11:50]And those who still believe in that illusion are people who are trying to serve their own personal interest at the expense of the interest of their people.

[00:11:59]>> Now you mentioned Benavir there, another of Netanyahu's ultraist part partners.

[00:12:05]Bengavir has just drawn rare public criticism from Netanyahu after airing a video parading the maltreatment of international flatillaa activists in Israeli detention. I'm not sure if you've seen this video. It's also caused widespread condemnation from world leaders and diplomats including Italy, France, Canada, even the US. I wonder, were you surprised to see such a strong global reaction to Ben's latest stunt?

[00:12:35]>> No, I wasn't surprised. I am still surprised that the reaction is only condemnations and calling the Israeli ambassadors to protest and no actual sanctions have been imposed yet. That's what surprises me.

[00:12:53]And in reality, by the way, Netanyahu did not criticize the act. He criticized the fact that Bing exposed the terrible oppression of these Solidarity people publicly and he did not before protest against the same fascist Bing Vir showing videos of him persecuting Palestinian prisoners. That didn't that didn't bother Natanyao. Nata was bothered only because the victims were foreign entity, foreign people, which could of course help bring the right image about what Israel is and that's why he criticized him. But Netanyahu is a liar and his foreign minister Gdons is also a liar when they say they don't agree with this because if they if this had happened in any other country, this minister Bingir will be dismissed immediately.

[00:13:56]And Netanyahu could dismiss him, but he wouldn't because Netanyahu approves the act approves the act of calling nonviolent peaceful people coming to help Palestinians by just trying to show how terrible the siege is on Gaza.

[00:14:16]He's calling them terrorists. He's calling them supporters of terrorists.

[00:14:21]And by which law the Israeli Navy under Netanyahu has the right to commit piracy by kidnapping the people in their ships in international waters. Israel has no right whatsoever to arrest anybody in international waters. So they violated the international law. They vi violated the the laws of the sea. They violated the human rights of these people and then they oppressed them and persecuted them and then they took a video humiliating them and showed it to the world. In my opinion, the reaction of the world is still minimal. What the world should do is to immediately impose sanctions on this Israeli government and the European Union in particular should stop abstaining from cancelling the association agreement with Israel. This is the least they can do. And by the way, that applies to Arab countries as well who should not have any relations with Israel when it is committing these terrible war crimes and who should not continue to have ambassadors of Israel in their country and who should not have any kind of normalization with Israel while it is committing genocide and other crimes against Palestinian people and now against people from different countries in solidarity with Palestine.

[00:15:46]The main countries that really took serious decisions are Spain, Ireland, Slovenia, South Africa, Brazil, uh, and and Colombia. Uh, I maybe there are some others, but these are the main countries that took actual sanctions activities, including military embargo on Israel.

[00:16:08]>> Mustaper Bargoti, thank you for your time. Betelottri, a little bit about him. This man was born in the Israeli annexed Golden Heights, which was and is not recognized internationally. The son of a rabbi who preached Jews in inane right to the land. His identity has been rooted in contested territory since birth. He's a self-declared fascist homophobe who has called for Torah law to govern the Israeli state and for maternity wards to be segregated between Jewish and Arab mothers. He's also a settler living in the Kajumim settlement of the occupied West Bank, which is illegal under international law. All Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law, according to a ruling by the International Court of Justice. in 2024. In 2022, Netanyahu formed the most right-wing government in Israel's history, brokering a coalition with Smott's Religious Zionism Party and Itar Bengavir's Jewish Power Party in a bid to stay in power. While they account for a minority of Netanyahu's support, they carry outsized influence because if they quit, which they both repeatedly threaten to do, the government will fall. Smart Rich has used this to extract extraordinary concessions from the deal. Netanyahu made him Israel's finance minister, already head of one of the most powerful departments as well as a min ministerial position within the Ministry of Defense. This makes him de facto governor of the occupied West Bank. Through this mandate, he oversees West Bank land management, settlement planning, and infrastructure. And as finance minister, he is free to allocate the vast resources required to put his plan into action. In other words, Smott holds extreme power. Here's how he uses it.

[00:18:05]for the phone.

[00:18:46]Oh, Smart Church's rise to power arguably marks a transformation in Israeli politics with the normalization of the settler project. Here to discuss whether he's fighting or turning the tide is Israeli journalist Miron Rapaort. Miron, welcome to ME live. Smart Rich has mainstreamed settler politics using his power to execute his decisive plan to annex the West Bank. But he used to be marginalized for his hardline views. He was arrested in 2005 for protesting Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. Is he still part of the fringes? How representative is his approach to Palestine of the wider Israeli population today?

[00:19:45]>> His moderate in himself is not popular.

[00:19:50]Uh his party in the polls and as you know we will have election in 3 months or four months uh time.

[00:20:00]uh his uh po his party the Zionist uh national Zionist party is on sometimes it's out sometimes it's in you need uh three and a half% in order to get to the to the parliament uh and in most the polls he's out so he's not popular uh I would say that uh in the protest uh the huge protest uh In 2023 before the war uh against the judicial overall, Smidge was seen uh by the protesters as as a as a as a as as a villain, as a threat, as the one behind trying to overturn uh the Israeli democracy according to the uh protesters. Of course the vision of what is democracy is is another discussion.

[00:20:58]So he's not popular in himself but yes I think he is very he knows his work very well. He seems to be very consequential.

[00:21:12]uh he took uh position uh as you said in the ministry of defense really the SAR of the West Bank and he is using it uh to the to the extreme. He nominated uh his own people in all section uh in the military um in the what is called the civil administration in the west bank uh and in other parts of the government. He is uh pushing uh all kind of reforms that practically uh means uh a de facto uh annexation of the West Bank. He announced the the building or the intention to build more than 100 settlements during this uh three and a half years in power is very very consequential. I think he's public uh um appreciates him very much uh and uh but he's not popular. At the same time, he is what happened after October 7th is that the moment that uh October 7th really crushed the idea that uh there is uh that Israel can manage the conflict.

[00:22:39]That was Netanyahu's philosophy and even the center left philosophy for for many years that Israel can manage the conflict. In October 7 in the moment that the wall around Gaza fell uh also it was the end of the idea of managing the conflict. At this moment we had two option. one is to go for a negotiated deal with the Palestinian, but that unfortunately is out of the question in the Israeli narrative for more than 20 years. Uh not only because of Smootic, also because of Erd Barak and other leaders of the left and then we were left. If there's no managing the conflict and there's no solution to the conflict, the only way is to have a total victory as the plan that Smatz himself uh published in 2018 if I'm not uh uh mistaken.

[00:23:41]um portraying the way that the only that the only solution is uh either a fullblown apartheide where Palestinian accepts to be secondass uh uh citizens or resident in between the river and the sea and if they don't accept it they have to be uh uh chased away uh they have to be transferred uh from uh from uh between the river and the sea. Would you would you say that that that position you've just described that post October 7th you know final victory um being the only option would you say that that is a a rationale that is held by a majority of Israelis then today is SM I guess is SMR rich like an agent of radicalization in Israel or is he just a consequence of it >> I think both but uh but yes I think he's an agent he's an agent because he's a very intelligent man And because he's very he has a very sound politics in the sense that he knows exactly uh what he's doing and he knows to connect what he's saying and what he's doing. Uh I think yes his option although he himself was not popular, although he himself is considered a mess too messic by many Israelis maybe by the majority of Israelis. the option he presented after October 7, the option of decisive victory, meaning the elimination practically of the Palestinian from this territory between the river and the sea. Uh yes, I think his philosophy uh won. he himself may be out of the Knesset out of the parliament in in in in five or uh six months maybe will be out of parliament but I think he made a mark uh that will not be uh deleted for many many years in Israel and >> it's interesting because even when you describe the prominence of that viewpoint it is very shielded from western audiences western media generally don't broadcast the most extreme statements made by ministers like Bengavir and Betsel Smartridge.

[00:26:00]We've just watched some of those. But often in English-speaking or or Western, you know, non-Hebrew channels, Israeli ambassadors deliver very censored versions that are more palatable, I suppose, with Western world views. Um, I think SMTRI and Bengavir often make it very difficult, however, and increasingly we've seen negative PR drawn to Israel because of their actions. I mean, not least today we're seeing the fallout of Bengavir's video with the flatillaa activists. Do Israelis worry about these ministers impact on their international reputation?

[00:26:38]Yes, this uh uh uh this is maybe the one thing while uh opposing uh the the genocide in Gaza was of course a very tiny minority and opposing the war in Iran was also a quite tiny minority and opposing the war and Lebanon is a tiny minority. the consequences of the damage to the PR let's say of Israel uh with videos like uh one that uh those we have seen in Bangville with with the flotillaa with with the uh passenger from the flotillaa. Uh this is something that the large Israeli public does understand that the mainstream media do criticize um quite harshly um and uh yes they are aware. I think Israelis live in a little bit of a strange situation in which on on the one hand they say it's only us that we will decide our our future. The world does not count. uh it's not important what the the the [ __ ] what the the the gentiles will say that's not important that's an heritage all already from Benorian time uh that's on the one hand on the other hand Israelis do feel part of the west Israel do feel part of Europe Israel do Israelis do feel that they are let's say the bastion of western civilization in the Middle East and if you know the this western civilization sees us in such a bad light. This is something that Israel is do not like to see themselves. Not to speak of course of more uh uh uh practical consequences like silent boycott or uh even a more uh uh powerful uh sanctions that may be on the way.

[00:28:40]>> Yeah. And and how about Netanyahu? I mean in response to this um Benvere incident Netanyahu has publicly criticized the national security minister this is actually a pretty rare move but it hasn't gone further than that as of yet you know Ben is unlikely to face any harsher discipline but Netanyahu is dealing with quite a significant diplomatic fallout. Does does this test his patience? Um and if so how far does his patience with these hardline ministers go?

[00:29:10]I think in the last three and a half years uh the difference uh between uh Bengri and Netanyahu is has become quite minimal uh uh if before uh the war and before the last government before this uh current government still Netanyahu represented some kind of a very right wing but still let's say rational or uh takes into account the international public opinion, the international arena. Uh uh now the difference has almost uh disappeared. Uh what happened now I think uh there are two things. First, you know, the fallout is really very harsh and it comes for example just a few days after the Eurovision contest in which Israel in invested a lot of effort and maybe even a lot of money in order to whitewash its its its image uh in front of of European uh public and then comes something like this uh that really destroys everything that Israel tried to build as it is a a liberal state that sends very nice song to this competition. Um and secondly we are in time of election. Um the the main rival of Netanyahu now is uh is uh uh Bennett who is very rightwing but still tries to be a more constitutional right let's say moderate right one who respect the rules respect the Supreme Court uh very rightwing against Palestinian state etc but and with the settlements but uh but uh but respect the rules and Netanyahu maybe is afraid that some of his voters from the LI could leave him and go to Bennett because he is still rightwing but more let's say decent uh and therefore he might this may explain why uh foreign minister Giddon Sar and after him Benjamin Netanyahu uh criticized uh Bangor in order to show the Israeli public, listen, we are not that extremist. We are still reasonable. We do think about the the international arena. We do think about international we have diplomacy, not only war, not only humiliation.

[00:31:59]Uh and of course, same goes for Bango.

[00:32:02]He did it also in order to show the Israeli electorate, especially the right-wing electorate, that he is the real right wing. That you cannot trust uh uh Netanyahu that he's soft, that he is uh um surrendering to to Trump. Uh and I am tough. I don't care what the world say.

[00:32:30]I care only about am people of Israel live and uh that's also part of the election.

[00:32:39]>> I'm going to have to wrap you there.

[00:32:40]Miran Raaport, thank you so much for your time. Betal Smrich said on Tuesday that he had ordered the eviction of a West Bank hamlet after learning about the IC warrant arrest request. The hamlet in question is a small Bedawin village called Khan al Ahma east of Jerusalem and its population has been estimated at roughly 150 people.

[00:33:01]Right-wing Israeli leaders have long called to raise the town and expel its residents to make room for the expansion of Jewish settlements. Under Sumatri, the West Bank has become the latest battleground of Israel's genocidal campaign towards Palestinians. expansion is sanctioned by the government and executed by settlers who act with impunity and often direct support from the occupying Israeli army. On me on ME's show ONO unscripted, Peter Oon traveled to Sebastia last month. Israeli settlers here backed by the army are expanding control over land, restricting access to farms, and reshaping the town's identity. Locals describe rising violence, land seizures, and a collapse in tourism alongside growing fears that their presence is being steadily erased.

[00:33:47]For many, what's happening today echoes 1948. And I'm joined now in the studio by Peter Oorn to share what he witnessed and react to the latest developments.

[00:33:57]Peter, welcome to ME Live. You were just in the West Bank. When were you there prior to that visit and did you notice any changes in between? Yeah, I've been going to the West Bank now for quite a long time, many years. Uh, and um quite extended trips often like I spent three months in Nablas before October the 7th for instance. It's a completely different uh place now >> since October 7th.

[00:34:24]>> No, it's the difference is and I think it's important to explain this that the big difference is is not October the 7th. It's the coalition agreement between uh Netanyahu and the farright religious parties and and Benavier which was struck immediately uh right at the start of um 2023.

[00:34:46]>> Mhm.

[00:34:47]>> Um and this was historic and hugely an illegal deal under international law.

[00:34:53]Basically the West Bank is an occup is occupied and real recognized as such by Israel.

[00:35:01]Hence it is governed by the military and under international law it should be governed in the interest of the people who are occupied. And so the military always had a duty not that they carried it out very well but there was in theory an obligation to look out after the interests of the people. right >> now once it was as part of the coalition agreement it was handed over um taken away from the military and given to Smothric and he was as the and he they created a new body the settlement administration form to run it and so it's now run by civilian politicians who do not have the interest at all of the Palestinians In fact, Smott is only answerable in effect to the settlers themselves. He is a settler. Uh he lives in a settlement, one of the most notorious actually. Um and and this is a completely different legal situation and moral situation.

[00:36:04]It's interesting because you at a very surface level you would think that rule by civilians would be softer than rule by a military occupation, but one of the people you spoke to said that settler rule was was much more terrifying than soldier rule. Why did they how did they explain that? Well, I I I I was on the bus from um from Ramal to Nablas uh which is a windy old journey these days because you know it takes a bit of time to avoid all the mess which the Israeli the occupation >> checkpoints and >> yeah um but they were talking the people on the bus were saying look it's was on it is now the settlers who rule and the mil and the military were at least they were predictable the settlers are completely out of control I you on bus journey. There we are passing to a Messiah where there's constant outrage.

[00:36:59]Every village there's constant out outrages and you can see in the distance a settlements which are violence and they're unregulated. They can do what they want. Um and they run the West Bank via via Smidge. You are right that in it sounds like under the old civil administration it was called >> which which meant that it was the civilian arm of the military. It sounded um and now it's under the under civilian rule. It sounds like it might be better.

[00:37:28]It's not. It's far worse. It's actually terrifying. And it's it's you know the frequently now Israelis are being beaten up on the West Bank. I mean the Israeli activists or >> by settlers >> by settlers I mean and foreign journalists are getting beat. It's new this thing. The flags are every these great statements of of the fact that Judea and Samaria is owned by the settlers. You know that on on Route 60, you know, it's I say less than every hundred yards there's a sorting a great flag on either side of the road.

[00:38:01]>> Yeah. You described the these flags and posters of of Rabbi what's his name?

[00:38:06]Rabbi who who is a you know or well he was before he passed away a symbol really of >> they believe he's the me M messiah and he's part of a esological thing which is gripping the settlers.

[00:38:19]>> You shared a piece of graffiti that accompanied one of those posters that really struck me. It said that that that poster was there to remind and this is a quote the residents of the Arab villages of their true destiny to be slaves to the children of Israel. Now I I think one of the reasons that it sort of struck me as a surprise that you know this civilian rule under Smott is more terrifying than the military rule. One of the reasons is because when you think of the difference between civilians and military you think about arms an armed military and an unarmed civilian um you know body. But this is not the situation in the West Bank is it? The the settlers you saw were heavily armed. What kind of weaponry do they have? um well basically machine guns and um actually this is more and more common everywhere now you know in occupied East Jerusalem so you're seeing settlers with machine gun everywhere and of course they're distributed by um the security minister the other other part of the farright element of the co coalition which is Benabir and he distributes guns >> and um it is worth saying that the smidge is actually doing in the West Bank more or less what that that statement about the children of Israel says basically he wants to give an option to under the smatri plan which he published a few years ago and it's still basically going strong the option for Palestinians in the West Bank is is either to immigrate you'll be helped they would be very happy if you was left >> uh or you become you stay there without rights no vote but you just as a servants of you know just as non- people >> which is a pretty intolerable situation for most people >> and if you accept either of those two options, we'll kill you. You know, you're terrorists and we'll kill you.

[00:40:03]So, that's the three options.

[00:40:05]>> Mhm.

[00:40:05]>> Um, and it's being put into effect by the uh by the settlers, although I think actually it's they don't engage, as far as I can tell, they don't really engage.

[00:40:15]They they attack the villages all the time.

[00:40:19]>> And where does the Palestinian Authority come into this? Because they have 70,000 soldiers at their disposal. What are they doing to prevent lawlessness against their the people, you know, their civilians, Palestinians?

[00:40:32]>> The Palestinian Authority is a tragedy.

[00:40:35]I mean, it was set up around Oslo and the idea was it was going to be the um nassent new Palestinian state and it was going to be fully in control of area A, the urban places, both um urban areas, both security and administratively.

[00:40:53]Um in practice it it is under in control. It has become the kind of uh resident ar the arm of the military arm of the Israeli of the Israelis. It works for the Israelis a and I quote um a member of the Palestinian army saying this that you know we do what we're told by the Israelis and anybody who doesn't agree with that is says it we don't is a liar. And I suppose that view is is shared by most of the residents you meet in the West.

[00:41:26]>> It's very ob. I mean the Palestinians in the villages that the settlers come in at night, they steal the flocks, they might kill you, they burn your house down, they blow up your car, whatever they do there. There's no way the Palestinian authority is going to send any of it 70,000.

[00:41:40]>> So really, what Palestin what can Palestinians do? How do they how can they defend themselves and their property from just being violently taken?

[00:41:48]>> It's very hard actually. uh you there is this feeling of steadfastness.

[00:41:54]I went to and you meet it again and again a bit which is a village I visited several times and they got a um a settlement on the hill above and uh they they got they're des they have to defend their land. They go out on marches to defend their land. So far when I last went there were 16 of them who had been shot dead. Not one of them had had armed been armed. They just if you they go some of them will throw stones and burn tires and whatnot, but it's they're not a threat to anyone, but they've been 16 have been killed. Many of them just sort of minding their own business instead of including one American Turkish American actor.

[00:42:34]>> And of course that action is what is often used by Israeli settlers at least, you know, internationally to justify um them being armed as well in the West Bank.

[00:42:46]>> Yes, indeed. There are I mean there are different strategies adopted by individual villages for instance in Taibbe um because under Smothides it's enormous expansion in these un unlicensed outposts they call them. It starts off with just a caravan on the hill you know on the top of the hill. You got the Palestinian villages normally, you know, on the on the rise where the hills start coming out of the valleys and and then you get another caravan and then they'll start to come down into your land. Um, and then they'll start just coming into your village burning, stealing your goods, taking away your sheep. Um, and that is that is the process. Now, in Taibbe, when I went there a few months ago, they they quite clearly decided and they said, "So, we decided we wouldn't resist." And so that you get settlers from the neighboring settlement wandering around on their own and stealing things and walking away because they they feel invincible. They are invincible. Uh whereas in Burka which I went to, it's very moving. uh you know there's a a great in all Palestinian villages there's this wall where these mark the m names of the martyrs and in Buraka they've got a tradition of resistance going back to the British 12 died in the Arab revolt and um in the 30s and a and they have a sign outside their village don't come in stay safe and if the the settlers come in then they will there's a WhatsApp group or something and they will all come out.

[00:44:22]You know, obviously some of them get killed, but uh it's it's interesting.

[00:44:27]There's real pride. Lots of them are in Israeli jails.

[00:44:30]>> Yeah.

[00:44:31]>> Uh in fact, the day I was there last, you know, three of them had just been released.

[00:44:36]>> The conditions in Israeli jails, we've done quite a lot of coverage on this. It are getting worse and worse. also very likely to do with that um change in government you describe when Bengavir has becomes well prisons have fallen under Bengavir's remmit with this distribution of power and that has led to a systematic culture of sadism as >> can I get something off my chest on this >> please >> um I've not this enormous row about the flatillaa you all these you know the British foreign secretary and Maloney have all woken up and condemned >> Benavier for his disgusting behavior. It is disgusting. But Bengavir has been wandering around has been in charge of these prisons which are torturing people to death and he's mocking prisoners.

[00:45:22]He's he's have shown film of himself like this only before it's been Palestinians. And I'll tell you something else. The people in the flatilla got away with it's like nothing compared to what the Palestinians were suffering in these jails. Have we had a word of protest from did did our British foreign secretary care about it? No. It had to be the the white the white Europeans getting mild getting mildly bruised by um a disgusting fascist in you know but they never had they reacted to in defect to come to the aid of the people who are being brutalized raped etc. I know dying of starvation being beaten to death in in Palest in Israeli jails.

[00:46:06]>> Yeah it's hard to argue with that. I mean none of the information is new coming out of Benavir's latest video and really I mean I participated in the flatillaa and I think that that is what a lot of um passengers felt that they were doing was literally just using their bodies to hold their governments hostage to force their governments to actually speak words of condemnation about even a fraction of the brutality that Palestinians reveal and and perhaps you're right perhaps the most revealing part of all of this is that it only happens when It's white people being violated. Peter Oorn, thank you so much for joining me in the studio. It is very nice to get a guest in face to face.

[00:46:45]Unfortunately, that is all that we have time for on today's