The video reduces a complex systemic conflict to a performative dialogue, prioritizing the aesthetics of civility over a rigorous analysis of structural power. It ultimately offers a false equivalence that obscures the fundamental tension between humanitarian ethics and state enforcement.
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Should ICE be Abolished? | Middle GroundAdded:
Due process with an illegal immigrant should be, "Let me see your papers."
"Oh, you don't have them. They don't exist. Okay, get out of the country." It shouldn't be an entire court case to figure out if someone's illegal. That's a waste of taxpayer dollars. That's a waste of time.
>> Let me see your papers and get out, buddy. That is fascism.
>> ICE should be abolished and replaced with a different agency. Can the Grier step forward?
Oh, it's all >> Well, let's start off with the obvious.
>> Yeah, >> this is an invented problem. This is a problem that was invented by the billionaire class and their proxies to shift the attention away from the fact that they have participated in 40 years of neoliberalism, which has decimated the working class. And so, they do the oldest trick in the book. They invent a problem and get working-class people to be divided by blaming immigrants and the most vulnerable.
>> This has been a continuous problem for so many years in um America where we blame immigrants for any kind of like current problem that we have because it's just an easy scapegoat. The billionaires don't even pay their fair share in taxes.
>> I think there's just a safer way to handle a situation. If you want law to do something, there's just a safer way to go about doing it.
>> Yeah. And I think from my point of view, ICE is a new institution. They didn't exist past 25 years ago. We didn't need them before and we can do without them now. And I think if your agency and your institution is actively violating the constitution, violating people's civil rights, killing American citizens and migrants, I don't think you should exist anymore. I think there are other pathways that we can utilize and call upon in order for us to actively keep people safe if that is what the other side is claiming that we need.
>> Yeah. And let's be honest, immigrants, undocumented immigrants are a huge value ad for this nation. They commit 30% less crime than native born citizens. They contribute economically uh more than any other group. And again, this is an invented issue and uh the amount of money and resources that are being deployed um especially at the risk of the constitution, our liberty and the rise of fascism. Let's look at homeland security broadly and CPB which encompasses 22 agencies. It's incredibly convoluted and they're involved with like the you know human trafficking, drugs, cartels. So actually the amount of resources that are being pulled from actually the agencies that are doing the deep work to confront cartels and gangs and drugs is going to um persecute cooks, line cooks, taco vendors, >> farm workers, >> farm workers, farm workers.
>> And also why do we need a $70 billion like budget? We're the 13th most powerful military uh in the world. ISIS.
Do we need that much money and that militant power to fight against immigrants?
>> Yeah. I've had my own pros and cons with and fear of with law. So, I just like I don't know which one specifically could help with the situation. I just think if the army and everything goes through training like extensive training, why can't ICE?
>> Well, we we have a criminal justice system already, right? If somebody commits a crime, they already go through a very particular system. That doesn't have to exclude migrants. If somebody does actively commit a crime, call the police and they go to jail, right? If they are prosecuted and they go through their due process. I vehematly am completely opposed to just deporting people just because you don't want them here, just because you can't figure out a proper solution. That's what the criminal justice system is for. You don't know if they broke the law or anything.
>> Exactly.
>> And there is a broader context that we are experiencing the full throws of currently the fifth stage of fascism.
And historically, if you study the history and the anatomy of fascism, it is important for fascist regimes to have loyalist paramilitaries. And that's that is critical to the goals of any fascist regime. ISIS is being funded like a secret army, a secret police force to enact a fascist regime's agenda.
>> Yes.
>> Point blank.
>> Can the disagree step forward?
>> I think two things can be true at once, right? We can talk about billionaires and corporate greed and why they make things harder for the working class.
That's all valid. However, that does not take away from the fact that there's illegal immigrants here that don't belong here. They take up housing. They take away resources. You replace ICE with another agency. What exactly is the difference? We still need an agency that takes care of illegal immigrants. And to say, why do they need so much money?
Well, the only reason why we need ICE so much now is because we had so many illegal immigrants. I agree with you.
It's a madeup problem. It shouldn't be a problem. You came here illegally, so it's ISIS's job to get you out. That's just common sense. And as you said, by the way, uh you mentioned all these other departments and agencies. HSI is under ICE. So if you're going to abolish ICE, you're going to abolish all the other departments under ICE like HSI, which handles, like you said, human trafficking, drug trafficking, and moneyaundering. You abolish ICE and they're doing a lot of good and you're going to just remove that thinking it's just going to be the deportations, but it's all other parts of crime like those others that I mentioned that would also be abolished and then what? replaced with the same thing just like as you said.
>> That's not that's not accurate.
>> But none of you actually addressed the actual prompt. The the prompt was uh if ICE was to would you get rid of ICE and replace it with something else. None of you laid out any grounds for what you would replace it with, how you would replace it, and how it would be any different from ICE. I heard people talk about billionaires, fascism. I heard people talking about crime rates, which was very inaccurate as well. But none of you actually laid out any groundwork for what it would look like. So, I would like to hear that really quick from you guys. What would this new system look like or what would this new force look like that's going to deport illegal immigrants?
>> What's your What is your understanding of what the crime rates are since you brought it up?
>> The crime rates, every single one of them has violated US code 8325, making them a criminal under federal law. Every single one of them.
>> Okay. What is uh in the eyes of the law, what does that commensurate with?
>> It is a misdemeanor.
>> Yes. Misdemeanor. on par with on par with >> Are you saying we shouldn't prosecute misdemeanor crime?
>> I'm saying do we need a $75 billion private force that are masked that are shooting American citizens to prosecute shoplifterss oversimplified way of putting how ICE operates. But I would like you guys to address my actual question that I asked you. What is this new force look like when you replace ICE? How are they any different from any other law enforcement agency? Because you talk about killing Americans, but a police officer and NYPD officer literally just shot an American today. They're >> And how many people has ICE shot? 14 since September.
>> Americans have shot more than I have to do with September. The first thing is DHS is not going to cease to exist if you get rid of ICE. That is a completely different agency that was created after 911 by Bush. The reason that this entire agency exists is because of what happened after 911. So if you didn't need it before 911, then you can do the same thing now. What you don't need is an agency that is going completely rogue. That is what you don't need. So what you replace it with is what we already have, a criminal justice system. Simply being in this country is not a crime. It is a civil infraction like he was mentioning. So if your actual argument is well they are criminals that's factually untrue. But if they actually do commit a crime let's say they are already in this country and they do commit a crime they get a DUI they murder somebody then they go through the criminal justice system which already exists. So you don't actually have to replace ICE with anything. We already have it. So you just talked about in the past four weeks we had 11 million encounters, 2 million got away, 7 million illegals that came into the country and you say we don't need ICE to deport any of these illegals and you're not giving an alternative.
>> So essentially do you not want any border control at all when you have 10 million illegals come in? Housing goes up supply for groceries, buddy.
>> So there's no countries now.
>> What a ridiculous draw.
>> Okay. I just want to make this point cuz you said that being coming into the country illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal matter. That's incorrect.
Overstaying a visa, something like that is a civil offense. But if you come into the country illegally, that's a crime.
illegally, that's a crime. So that those So that those are two different things.
are two different things. That is still That is still a crime. It's still a a crime. It's still a crime.
crime.
>> So if you shoplift one time, are you a >> So if you shoplift one time, are you a criminal for the election?
criminal for the election?
>> You should get prosecuted if you're >> You should get prosecuted if you're shoplifting. And that's why California shoplifting. And that's why California just repealed the vote because at first just repealed the vote because at first they supported it, like not enforcing they supported it, like not enforcing harsh laws on shoplifterss. But we saw harsh laws on shoplifterss. But we saw what happened. What happened with that?
what happened. What happened with that?
Everybody was breaking in and the cops Everybody was breaking in and the cops weren't really doing anything because it weren't really doing anything because it was under a certain amount. Because it was under a certain amount. Because it was a misdemeanor under like what, $500.
was a misdemeanor under like what, $500.
But if you come into the country And then California just voted. You know what? Maybe we shouldn't be so easy on shoplifting. If you come into this country illegally, you committed a crime. Let's get that like >> Yeah.
>> Why do you guys support a violent agency? They've already shot two American citizens, killed them. Why do you want to continue supporting an agency that has killed US citizens when you guys I understand your whole reason to support ISIS. It's to protect Americans, but just based off the last few months we've seen, it hasn't protected any Americans. So why continue supporting a violent agency? Why does it need military funding?
>> I'd like to start this.
>> Oh yeah, you go first.
>> Uh firstly, you know, I understand this both comes from a place of compassion about where we where we want to direct it at in terms of the what you said about, you know, the American citizens who died. I would just like to point out that they were instigators. They were obstructing justice. They were preventing the ICE agents from doing what they were supposed to do. And why is someone going into a protest with their children, with guns, XYZ? Why is why are you there trying to run over ICE agents? I think that they're doing their jobs and they're being villainized by this protesters and the other side. One of those American citizens was deescalating a situation. I want to say you're talking about uh law enforcement killing Americans. Like I said earlier that there have been multiple people killed in New York City today by NYPD.
Does that mean I'm not going to support the police and NYPD? No. People are committing crimes. They do something that puts them in a situation that will get them killed. I've been pulled over multiple times. I've never had a cop draw their gun on me because I have never given them a reason to. I never reach for my weapon. I never go like this really fast. I never do anything that makes it so they have to draw their weapon. When somebody does something that threatens a police officer or an ICE agent's life, you realize they have less than seconds to make the decision on what to do. I would love you to take a tactical training class and see what it's like to go through that because these people have to pass it to actually become a police officer or ICE agent.
And most people, your average citizens will fail at like a 90s something% rate.
>> Is >> do you know who Laura Jade is?
>> Off the top of my head, no. Laura Jadeid is a journalist who was able to get into the ICE program within six minutes of an interview. She if just one simple background check she they would have seen that she was a reporter. Somebody who is very much against ICE, very much against like just overall somebody you wouldn't want in their agency and they let her in. It is so easy to become an ICE agent and to just be handed a gun and free range to hurt people. So again, why do we want to continue to support violence?
>> Can I add a point to that that so that you can respond to you mentioned training? I agree. More training. Is that what happening? No. Ryan Schwank uh testified in front of Congress. He is a whistleblower. He was a counsel and a trainer. And they wanted him to lie that they cut 240 hours of training for ICE agents. Trainings on constitutionality.
What is overreach? Weapons training.
Really important things.
>> Add this in. I have no problem with extra training. I actually think they should be trained more.
>> They they wanted him to lie about it.
>> People are always going to have ulterior motives. There's always going to be bad apples in a bunch. That's not surprising to me. This is the American. Not a bad apple.
>> It's the entire agency.
>> Yeah. But calling the entire agency a big group of bad apples is the most low IQ thing I've ever heard. That that's a lack of logic and critical thinking skills. But it's not because he's literally because we're literally talking about an ICE whistleblower who testified under oath >> that they need more training that they need that they actively cut the training in half >> and it included use of force. So if we're going to talk about how, you know, we need more training, they had more training and this specific uh Trump administration told them to cut it in half.
>> Yes. Do you understand why?
>> I do. Why do I think we get it?
>> Well, I think because Steven Miller is asking for three thou a quote of 3,000 arrests a day and u >> I wish it were 10.
>> Okay. Well, I guess you'll have to reconcile that with your faith.
>> My faith accepts borders. They actually promote them.
>> Your your your faith says nothing about borders. We can talk about that later.
And uh in this case, um we talked about training, but this is a policy decision because they're essentially trying to pump up their numbers. Does that make sense? 3,000 a day. And if you're And here's the thing, like what is the percentage of actual Do we Do you think that the problem is that undocumented people are dangerous criminals? Do you think that's the problem?
>> No, I think they shouldn't be here. I think if I went to Pakistan, they would kill me. If I went to North Korea, they would torture me and kill me. If I went to certain countries, most of them >> You don't think you can go to Pakistan >> uh without a visa and enter illegally?
No, they would kill you. Actually, they've done it to multiple people.
>> They have not.
>> Yeah. So 80% of countries have some form of border control and 95 have some restriction on immigration. But when we do it here somehow it's a big problem because we highlight the few things that bring up an emotionally charged argument instead of just looking at the logic and facts behind it. If you look 65% of the deportations so far are all by criminals. 15% are violent, 20 to 40% are people with DUIs, drug and fraud crimes. And then last one is um illegal re-entry which is a felony. And back to my other just simple question because I didn't get a yes or no. Is a misdemeanor a crime? That's that's all I want to know. It's a simple yes or no.
>> I mean, technically, we're not debating whether or not a misdemeanor is a crime.
We're talking about do we have a $75 billion military force that is deployed against American citizens and against an entire population to prosecute what is essentially a misdemeanor. That is the frame of the conversation, not whether or not a misdemeanor is a crime. Did you have a problem when Obama deported six million? Yes. And Bill Clinton deported million?
>> We called him the deorter and chief, buddy.
>> So, you're not pro Obama?
>> I personally I have a an enormous amount of critique for President Obama.
Absolutely.
>> That's a good >> I don't want to get into it, but I mean, he expanded the military, police state, executive actions. He created a failed state in Libya. I mean, but at the thing is like Trump never matched Obama's deportation numbers, which it goes back to the problem that this was never an issue. Donald Trump capitalized on white supremacy >> for political power because the the fact is Obama was was the deodorant and chief. It's not like this wasn't a thing that was being addressed. He it was gross overreaches by President Obama.
So, you have to pick a lane. You can bring up Obama in deportation >> for white people. Let let me ask you that. What has Trump done to help white people specifically if he's uh pro- white supremacy and he's been running on white supremacy? I don't think he's done anything.
>> I just want to make one point. So ICE is not out here killing American citizens.
American citizens are getting brainwashed by the left that oh these aren't even law enforcement officers.
You guys can go and impede their investigation. Get in their way. Try to hit them with the car. Try to wrestle when you know you have a gun. If I if I know I have a gun and I'm around a law enforcement officer, I'm acting on my best behavior, first of all. And my final point is you guys keep saying, "Oh, well, they don't have training.
They don't have training." You guys realize we have a lot of illegal immigrants here thanks to Biden. So, we would not need so many ICE officers to round them up in the next four years if Biden didn't let so many in in the first place. So, yeah, there might like, you know, they might let some slip through the cracks and be like, "Let's cut the training because we need mass deportations. We have so many illegals here. That's why the ICE officers probably aren't getting the proper training. And maybe they should. Maybe they still should. But at the end of the day, look at what Trump was left with.
How do you expect if we do everything perfect and we have so much training, we're never going to have mass deportations. We're never going to get all these people out.
>> Did you know that uh under Title 42, Biden's uh Trump's numbers actually were 1% lower than Biden's removals? So to say that Biden was just letting people in is categorically false. I think they expelled something like four to 4.6 million people. And also, it's not because of Biden. It's because of a massive crisis that was happening in Central and South America, largely being perpetrated by US oil sanctions in Venezuela, which created a crisis. Who did that? Donald Trump in 2017 through the oil sanctions which dropped Venezuela's economy 75% of their GDP causing a massive crisis. Okay. Also, what happened in 2020? What? Covid. So, it's not like Biden did nothing. Biden had very high numbers. And I'm not defending those numbers. Actually, I I'm not on Biden's side about it, but I'm just rejecting your claim. Plus, those numbers are inflated because of Title 42. There were multiple crossings. So, those numbers actually it wasn't 11 million people.
>> 11 million encounters, 6 to 7 million crossings, 2 million gotaways.
>> Correct. But it was multiple.
>> There was no no legislation change when Trump came in office and border crossings stopped by 95%. just executive >> simply him just being in office and enforcing uh the border dropped it down 95%. So to say that Biden had no play in that >> the numbers were already ramping up under under Trump the last two years of Trump it was going from three 300,000 to 900,000. So it the problem was already escalating.
>> I think most of us can agree and most Americans agree that the media is not honest. So why do you think when they're talking about the violence in the streets and all this anti-ICE rhetoric, why do you think it's honest? We didn't get this same rhetoric when Obama was deporting six million or when Bill Clinton was deporting 11 million. Even though very similar things were happening. ICE was still being rough with immigrants. ICE was still going into people's homes. They weren't getting the due process. As you say, due process with an illegal immigrant should be, "Let me see your papers. Oh, you don't have them. They don't exist. Okay, get out of the country." It shouldn't be an entire court case to figure out if someone's illegal. That's a waste of taxpayer dollars. That's a waste of time. to act like all of this is ICE just being extremely violent and not the media playing it up to try and stir drama within the country and stir drama against Donald Trump who has been their number one political enemy for the last 8 10 years since he's been in politics is just a ridiculous thought >> let me see your papers and get out buddy that is fascism >> ICE agents are unfairly vilified for doing their jobs >> I think this a lot has to do with what you were saying about the way media portrays them and I think it's feeding the flame of what the other side believes and they're protesting and I actually want to say funnily enough that these protesters they're creating barricades hence borders in their streets to see if ICE agents are coming through their streets and vetting them.
So I thought that that was very interesting that they're doing that on that side. But in terms of they're being like vilified, well, they are, especially when you compare, as James has said, with how they were during the Obama administration and the Clinton administration, they are not portrayed nearly the same. So, I think that that is exactly the point there.
>> And I don't know if you guys have seen it, but like the media and the left, especially on social media, they encourage you to get in the way of their investigations. They encourage you to get involved. Even with George Floyd, you notice they were recording. They were cursing out the officer, but nobody got involved because they know you don't do that with police. You don't physically get involved. For some reason, they have it in their heads that you're allowed to physically get involved into like these into these investigations or like these arrests.
They have it in their head that ICE is not law enforcement officers. Like I've seen so many people say this. They think in their head that ICE is not law enforcement officer, so they don't respect their authority. You can protest all you want, but you cannot physically get in the way of, you know, a law enforcement operation. You just can't.
And why are we vilifying ICE when they're just doing their jobs. They're doing what you're supposed to do. Any other country? It would be the same exact thing. What is your problem with with ICE if you're in if you're a citizen? They mind their business. They don't mess with American citizens unless you're not getting in the way.
>> I'm glad you brought up uh George Floyd cuz I was literally going to say a very similar thing. I was going to say it's the same way that the defund the police or the all cops are bastards campaigns went where they tried to vilify every cop. And I've met many ICE officers the same way I've met many police. And they're all very friendly people.
They're all family people for the most part. Um, and to vilify an entire group is the exact thing that they try and say we're doing. They they try and say we just look at brown people and say get the out of our country or something along the lines of that when realistically it's we do not want the people who are not legally entitled to be here to be here.
>> Yeah. And it's also sad cuz it's been a thousand% increase on assault on ICE officers. It's been over 230 assaults on um ICE officers. That includes arson, shootings, and then physical altercations and 180 vehicle assaults.
So, they're out there assaulting ICE officers and they have to meet the the the force that they're given by these people to pro protect themselves. And at the end of day, it's it's a a simple logical argument. You think any person is going to care about a random person's life more than their own if they're threatening them? It's just plain and simple. And one more point, I know a lot of people on the left get mad that ICE officers get to walk around in face mask. They did not need face masks up until recently when the left basically declared war on law enforcement officers. So the reason why they wear face masks is because they're getting docked. They're getting harassed just for doing their jobs.
>> I actually think the same thing that happened with the body cams with the police is going to happen here. They when they rolled out the every cop has to have a body cam um after George Floyd and after the black riots of 2020 or 2021, whatever it was, the media was telling us, "Oh, you're going to see all these cops killing unarmed black people." And what did we see? We saw a lot of black people and a lot of criminals who were just going at these cops armed trying to harass, injure, etc., whatever. And I think we're going to see a similar thing. They they're saying they're going to start rolling out body cams on ICE agents. And what we're going to see is we're going to see these ICE agents driving and their car gets rammed. We're going to see people screaming some of the most vile and disgusting things in their faces and doing things to attempt to dox them.
That that's what we're going to end up seeing. And sure, is there going to be a bad apple among the bunch? I don't doubt it. I mean, in police, in schools, in I in every category, there's going to be bad apples. But that's the one they're going to find that bad apple and they're going to use that to try and say, "Oh, the entire bunch is bad. It's the equivalent to like if I take one black guy who's committed 20 crimes and say all black people are always going to commit 20 crime." It's just a ridiculous thing and I think it's pretty funny that that's how they paint it.
>> May I address your statement you say about minding your business?
>> Yes.
>> During BLM, minding my business, walking to my car and I was gunned down by the police. So, your statement about just minding your business will not get you in trouble. I don't remember exactly what you said, but can I clarify?
>> I was gunned down minding my business.
That's why I said I understand why people have more of a disdain or distrust for police than they do for ICE cuz that was a that was a cop that wasn't ICE, right?
>> Well, that was I guess a bunch of FBI people or whatever.
>> It wasn't ICE, but ICE is still the law for you guys.
>> That's what I'm saying. It's easy for me to support ICE cuz I do I feel like cops more cops are more likely to do stuff like that, but ICE is strictly for immigrants.
>> Yes.
>> So, that's what I'm saying. I understand why there's more of a distrust for like local police than there is ICE because ICE just goes after immigrants.
>> Um, okay. But the man who was minding his business, I believe he was a nurse or a doctor. I'm not 100% sure. He was deescalating a situation and executed.
>> He put his hands on an ICE officer. The minute you put your hands on law enforcement officer, I don't care what you're trying to do, and you have a gun, you basically have a death wish. That's just how I was raised. You don't put your hands on law enforcement officers.
You don't get into scuffles when you have a when you know you have a gun.
>> So it was okay to be executed.
>> They thought that he they thought that he had a gun. They thought that he was trying to shoot him.
>> He was on his knees on the ground.
>> How? Okay. But I'm saying it's so easy in hindsight.
>> I could walk around with a gun.
>> I'm saying yes. Exactly. But if you know you have a gun, do not try to get involved in a scuffle. The woman, the ICE officer pushed. Maybe he shouldn't push her like that. Whatever. But she was fine. He did not have to physically get involved because look, now he's dead and the woman's fine. I'm saying though, the thing is, if you know you have a gun, you need to act. Don't be getting in scuffles. Don't resist arrest because look what happened.
>> That's one of the first things you're taught when you get a gun. And beyond that, do you know what actually happened? He was carrying a Sig PX 320, which is known to misfire, which is slightly his fault, but it's more Sig's fault. Nobody should carry that gun.
Anybody who does just lacks brain cells.
>> So, I guess none of us are aware of our constitution.
>> Use your words. Please don't interrupt as >> I wasn't interrupting you. literally just finished and you've been interrupting all of us.
>> The woman brain is hilarious. It's fine.
Go sweetheart.
>> No, don't call me sweetheart.
>> Okay, that was inappropriate. The saying woman brain was inappropriate. But to address the problem, it reminds me of 1994 when they said the final commandment was to get them to disregard what they see with their own eyes. Alex Prey, who is an ICU nurse, was helping a woman who was bodys slammed by ice. He was attending to her. Then he got bear sprayed and then he got executed. He was shot in the back of the head. The weapon he was carrying which he was legally uh allowed to carry and that gun was removed which the officers could see.
His he was down in a in a his back was turned and they executed him and everybody saw it. So I >> one key part that I mentioned which is when the gun was removed it was a Sig PX320. It misfired and that's why he was shot. It shot because the gun he was carrying misfired >> by whom?
>> But they had the gun >> by by the Sig weapon. Do you know what a misfire?
>> The sig weapon fired itself?
>> Yes, that's what a misfire is.
>> In whose hands?
>> In the ICE officer's hands. Yes. After they took it off him, it misfired. He had a phone in his hand and they shot him. Yes. You also have to understand the tactical reality changes moment to moment in a situation like this. When you have a situation like that, you have moments to decide, less than a second to really decide what to do. They saw a thing in his hand. It was his phone.
They took his weapon off him or one of them did. Not everyone saw it. The gun misfired and they executed him right then and there. And to say that it is all the ICE agents faults is absolutely ridiculous. You could blame Sig. You could put a little bit of the blame on him for carrying a SIG PX320 and you could put a lot of the blame on him for getting involved physically violently with a law enforcement officer while carrying a weapon, which is the number one thing you learn not to do when you get a weapons per. I guess Kyle Writtenhouse didn't learn that. But he was not >> Kyle Writtenhouse put his hands up when he didn't put his hands on an officer.
He was attending to the woman who was on the ground. You can see it. It's on the video.
>> You can also see him push the officer.
Did you miss that part or did you see that?
>> I'm just saying I like you earlier talked about like the news. I saw it on someone else's phone camera which is not on the news. However, he was de It doesn't matter if he was carrying the gun, came off the street, whatever. He was deescalating a situation. They had him on the ground. They shot him. Maybe they should have took a step back and be like, "Okay, I misfired the gun, not the man on the ground who was basically surrendering."
>> Well, the reason they empty the magazine is because you're taught to shoot until a threat is neutralized. You're not taught to put one bullet and then check and see.
>> I mean, we have gnome vasquez, uh, which allows racial profiling. You guys say you can mind your own business walking down the street, but ISIS ICE agents are authorized to arrest people on the premise of being brown.
>> Arrest or question?
>> People have been arrested and they're American citizens.
>> But what you just said is that there is a law that allows them to arrest them for being brown.
>> The Supreme Court allows ICE to arrest people on the premise of looking like an immigrant. And that is targeted, believe it or not, towards brown people.
>> I'm sorry, that's just false.
>> That is not false.
>> Is that what they ruled that if you look around? Like what was the actual ruling that you're referring to?
>> It is where you can arrest people or question them around areas where a lot of undocumented immigrants hang out.
>> So like around the border, >> so you can >> not around the border. There is uh construction work, construction working or any kind of uh what we'll deem like as like low skill jobs. Uh it's uh you can question somebody just based off them speaking Spanish and you can also arrest somebody entirely based off like speaking in English with an accent. This is specifically targeting people of color. It's targeting people of color.
This Vasquez venom is the Supreme Court's way of saying the quiet part out loud of yeah if you are a person of color in this country you can be detained. So, two things. Our majority of illegal immigrants, are they a person of color?
>> A majority.
>> Yeah. Would you say over 50%.
>> What does that have to do with equal protection?
>> I said majority of them are of a different skin color. So, it would make sense that majority of those people are questioned if you want to deport the majority of people. And when you said US citizens were detained, it's 170 to 200 as of right now. 130 of them actually assaulted the officer. And have 300,000 people have been deported. That's a 99.9% accuracy rate. And somehow that's bad. I mean, I'd take that any day of the week.
>> You would take any an American citizen being risked to for deportation just for the >> just show your papers.
>> Wait, but do you expect people to walk around like everyday citizens? Do you expect everyone to walk around with papers?
>> I expect them to have them available in some manner. If you're not walking around with it, you should have a picture of it most likely. Yes. Yeah, that sounds like Germany.
>> Do I have my license? Yes, I do.
>> Okay. Your license. But you're saying visas, >> which has a gold star on it, which means you have a social security number, which >> Yeah, gold star like the Jews >> in Germany.
>> So unfairly vilified. I The reason I didn't step forward is because we have so much documentation proving that again they are not being trained properly.
Therefore, they are violating people's civil rights. They're violating the constitution. the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendment. There's no reason to not unfairly vilify them because of that specifically. If you are an American and you are against people being undocumented, make the process easier.
But instead, what we have done or this specific administration has done is send out enforcement to go out and walk into people's homes without the proper warrant, without a judicial warrant.
They have been explicitly told to do that. And we're mentioning IDs. People have had IDs. They have showed them.
They have had their papers.
Specifically, American citizens have showed ID and passports. and they have still been detained for weeks and months at a time without the proper due process of being allowed to have a lawyer to even come and speak to verify their birth certificates and things like that.
So even if you had the papers, even if you're an American citizen, even if you are a lawful resident for example, even if you have a visa for ICE, it does not matter. And we have so much documented uh evidence of that. I'm in the media actually.
>> Same. And I do agree that the media has bias, but that doesn't mean that they're dishonest. I think there are definitely certain uh platforms that have an agenda. I think we talked about Fox News for a second. Um CNN, I would agree, also has an agenda. But that doesn't mean that all of the evidence that they're putting out, all of the video footage, all of the uh whistleblower testimony, all of the migrant and US citizen testimony of being held in detention centers for as long as they have been are automatically dishonest.
It it's just that's just not how it works. If we want to truly have a process for documentation, let's do that. I'm for that. But what we can't sit here and do is be intellectually dishonest and say, "Well, we shouldn't vilify them because they've shot 14 people. Most of those people have been American citizens." That's just not true. Immigration enforcement should focus only on violent criminals. Can the Grier step forward?
>> I think at the root of this is a premise. It's something that Web Dubois called the psychological wage of whiteness. And this entire issue, ISIS funding, the mass detention camps, which are basically concentration camps, all of that is predicated on taking advantage of the disenfranchisement and the disillusionment that white people feel because they are not uh they feel that they're not being given the life that they owed. And they're framing like our president and our leaders are f constantly framing immigrants as violent. They're constantly framing them as rapists. They're Trump has talked about poisoning our blood. And this is white supremacy. I agree. If you are a violent criminal, if you're trafficking, uh if you're harming children, absolutely we should be uh using the resources that we have to target those people to uh arrest them, to have them go through due process, and absolutely to deport them. But I do not believe that the president needs a private military force uh to forward his political agenda. If we look at the actual numbers, I think something like 74.3% have no criminal history whatsoever. If we're looking at actual uh those who are being arrested, detained, and deported with violent histories, violent crimes, I think something like it's like 5% according to the KO Institute. But if you're really looking at there, the rhetoric says they're criminals, they're gang members, they're drug dealers, but 3% is trend AWA, 04% is MS-13. Yes, if these people are committing crimes and engaging illicit activity, absolutely go for them. But social security would be defunct right now if the undocumented immigrants who are the mostly salt of the earth honest people who are committing crimes at drastically lower levels who are a value ad to society who pay into the way more into the system than they take out and actually are the number one source of creating new wealth in this country creating new jobs uh especially when it comes to second generation Americans and we are engaging in a white supremacist campaign for the political interests of the billionaires es- you know especially this this regime and um and I think that uh I think it's an invented problem. I think the these these populations contribute an enormous amount to our society and so I I reject the entire frame of the conversation beyond that.
Well, as somebody who doesn't believe that ICE as an entity should exist, I don't think that we actually they need to go after violent criminals and just target them because again, we have a criminal justice system that that does that. If you want specific things around documentation, then we already have agencies for that too. if somebody wants to get a visa, if somebody wants to become a legal or permanent resident, or if somebody wants to become a citizen.
So, I don't think that um you know, this targeting of specifically violent criminals. Um I think it's a moot point.
>> Can I just say I don't really think it matters. If you come into this country illegally, you do not have to commit like an extra crime, like a bonus crime in order to be deported. your first the first thing you did when you came into to the country was break a law. We do not have to wait for you to break two laws to then deport you. I feel like that doesn't make any sense. And to talk about your point, what agency is going to be responsible for deporting people.
>> I don't believe we should be deporting people that you would like to have a deeper conversation about documentation. If you would like to have a deeper conversation about people breaking their visas, for instance, we can have that conversation.
There are already agencies that exist for that. I personally don't believe that you need to deport somebody to a different country in order for the laws in this in this country to be uh um you know absolved. Like there are already ways of doing that. I don't believe in deportation.
>> Okay. But a lot of times, let's say people commit crimes and then they get a slap on the wrist. You're saying that like let's say if somebody committed like a a sex crime against his child and they got 5 years. You're saying after those 5 years that like person that never was here legally, you're saying that he should still stay in the country and he shouldn't be deported after he served a sentence.
>> If they committed a crime, they go through the criminal justice system. If you don't like that they only got 5 years, change the law. There are plenty of advocacy um organizations that that do that. But you can't just say, "Well, they committed a crime, so let's ship them off to a different country to commit more crime." Is is that your premise?
>> No. No. I think that if you are illegal immigrant and you commit a crime, you should serve time in American prison so we know the victim got justice and then once you're done with your sentence, you don't get to just enjoy America. You go back to wherever you came from because you never belonged here and you committed a crime and harmed an American.
>> So then it's not about crime and punishment for you. For you, but it's not because they already went through the criminal justice system, but for you it's not enough time. But they were illegal. So they didn't deal with being that they never got deported for that.
>> So again, there are already agencies that go through that process of documentation >> for being illegal >> for documentation.
>> Okay. Who is going to send them back?
No, you're you're saying that we shouldn't send anybody back.
>> I No, >> that's crazy.
>> Deportation is is a false premise. If that person if that person if you would like to go and visit Paris tomorrow and you spend a week in Paris and you say, "You know what? I really like Paris. I want to see if there's any jobs here.
You look for jobs and then you decide, you know what? Yeah, I want to apply for that job. You go through the interview process. They then you have to then go through their documentation process.
Right.
>> Exactly. I'm going through the process.
>> You going through that process for you in your mind. That's the legal way of going about it. Correct.
>> Exactly.
>> That is what people do here. Now, if they break their visas, if they decide not to go through that documentation, then yes, there is an agency that can already go through that processing.
>> Okay, but what happens if I go to Paris without a passport, without any documentation? Like, man, I want some croissants and you know, I just want to stay here. I don't have any passport. I don't have any visa. What would happen in Paris?
>> Just ju real real quick though, in other countries, Spain, Portugal, there is a pathway to citizenship. So you actually can go over you actually can go through a process apply and but here there isn't the same process. There are people who are spending 30 years applying. There isn't a pathway to citizenship. There isn't a pathway to go through the system. It just doesn't exist. And this is important because so many of the crises that are happening that are forcing these people to come as refugees are created by the United States. like you know the decades of dirty wars waged by our CIA uh that most of the a good percentage of the drug trade is fueled by Americans consumption uh the again I talked about the crisis in Venezuela 100% happened because of US policy so we have to look at the underlying causes it's easy to to just make those anecdotal points or hypothetical points but you have to look at the underlying causes real quick >> may I think we're getting off topic of ICE or only taking violent offenders. I would hope that they would take everyone who's committing a crime, not just violent offenders because there's a crime within everything. It's not just the crime of crossing the border illegally.
>> Uh, no.
>> Okay. So, you don't want them to get all the criminal. Do you want them to get all the criminals except the ones who crossed illegally?
>> I mean, actually, applying as a a refugee seeking asylum, perfectly legal.
>> Do you think that uh >> it's actually legal? So, what you're saying is false that you're you're shifting the goalposts. No, I'm not because that's extremely abused program and you most of the people the vast majority of people who use the asyl program cannot prove that they're refugees or seeking asylum from real terror.
>> Okay. But you're moving the goalpost that that what I said what you said that they're criminals but the process of seeking asylum is legal >> and then when they overstay >> shifting the goalposts >> I just think a lot of anti-immigration rhetoric it's always trying to take the most extreme ignoring the data ignoring the statistics about how much violent crime immigrants uh commit in this country which is not a lot uh actually US citizens are more likely to commit a violent crime than an imm immigrant. So if you're saying, well, if somebody who is undocumented commits a crime and then goes through the justice system, should they be released back into the country or this this country? You should stay here. Yeah. 100%.
>> I think we should be it's a it's a privilege, not a right to be here. Like it's it's a huge privilege. It's an honor actually to be in America and an American citizen. So you're saying we should bestow upon them a gift after they uh you said it was too extreme, but molested a child, went to jail. I could even make it less extreme. A less extreme.
>> I mean, it's a straw man. You're making a straw like that's not up to >> No, the law would be there deported actually.
>> Okay. But if they don't deport them, then they released them back into the country. So then that's not our problem at that point.
>> And also we have to live with them.
That's our problem.
>> Okay. But they took it upon themselves to release them back into our country.
If they wanted to deport them, they would have. But >> but that's what you guys wanted.
Normally when normally when illegals commit crimes, they serve time in American prison and then they get deported. That's normally how it is. The only reason we bring up these extremes is cuz you guys are saying all deportations are bad. Even if they commit crimes, violent crimes, you guys still think that they should be in this country. Like, am I tripping? I think you should your problem with the justice system when you're saying oh if the worst of the worst happens somebody does something if somebody does something horrendous to another human being but and then they are they you don't feel like they have served the sufficient time in prison then that's something like you said earlier you should be taking up with the courts.
>> The problem is not the amount of time they serve. The problem is that they could serve 5 years they could serve 50 years. My point is they were illegal when they entered. The first action they ever did when they entered was illegal.
They then committed a second crime, a violent crime. We could say rape. We could say murder. We could say burglary.
We could say whatever crime you want.
They spend the appropriate amount of time in jail for that. I'm not arguing about jail sentences times. I'm talking about when they get out, should they be rewarded with, hey, you should now be granted American citizenship and the American taxpayers are now going to have to accept you even though you committed this crime and multiple other crimes. Or are we just going to deport that person?
It's the answer to keep instead of arguing child rapist in the context instead instead of arguing about a hypothetical situation that you're inventing. I would like I love that you brought up bigger picture, right? Because the bigger picture is that so much of this is being driven by companies like Core Civic and the Geog Group who are massive Trump donors in the in millions and who are making massive massive profits. So basically all of the concentration camps that are being rolled out around the country or we'll call them detention camps if whatever if you want. Um they're making massive profits. So that is what's driving the policy. Do you understand?
>> My point here really is I the reason I didn't say much is because you you really said it all that if you came into this country that's your first crime, you should already go and you commit another. It's really just adding on top of already what you've done wrong. It doesn't have to be violent. You came in here, it's illegal. It breaks the law.
Misdemeanor or not, it breaks it. You should go.
>> And can I just make one point? You say we don't have a pathway to citizenship.
I'm kind of confused cuz I have a lot of like friends that are immigrants that came in here illegally and they became citizens because they waited in line.
So, what do you mean we don't have a pathway to citizenship? There's plenty of illegal immigrants and they're more pro ICE than most Americans that are born here. So, there is a pathway to citizenship. You just have to wait a while.
>> Yeah. I I don't think you know much about the process itself. I know it intimately and um it is massive. People wait decades to do that. It costs roughly $15,000 and most people can't do that. If you're trying to just >> no matter how hard it is, the point is we still have a pathway to citizenship.
You might not like it. You might think it's hard, but guess what? When millions of illegal immigrants are coming, that makes it harder for people to even have pathway to citizenship. If you're living through a crisis and it it's going to take 30 years, the best only thing that you can do is do the best you can to take care of your family and get to safety. Not to mention, I'm a little bit older than y'all. I grew up with a very different idea of what America was. This was the place where anybody could come.
And these were the people that we wanted. This was the American dream. It is on the Statue of Liberty. Send us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free. I think I think maybe it's just because I'm older, but this is a very different country.
>> Family separation is a necessary consequence of immigration enforcement.
>> I'll start here cuz I didn't speak much last time, but you know, I think when parents take take their young kids and they cross the border, it's the parents' fault. It's not the kids' fault, but that they take them. So when eventually the deportation happens you know it's it is a natural consequence of the decisions that these parents made for their children or if they had a child here and because of the constitution they are born a citizen that is again due to the consequences of the parents' decision and this is a harsh reality and that that is what it is but it is a natural consequence and when you start blurring the lines and you know making exceptions here or there it it makes things difficult where they think, "Hey, if I have a child here, if I bring my children here, it'll give me a leeway to stay here." And we can't we can't have that in this justice system.
>> Yeah. I mean, if you're if you're driving around drunk with your son in the back of your car, you're going to be separated from your family. That's just how the law works. It's if you commit a crime, you are most likely going to be separated from your family because of that. And also I like the idea um that they deport the entire families or they at least give them the option to deport the families together. So when they do get separated you could actually put the blame on the illegal immigrant in the family.
>> And that's kind of what I was going to say. I agree and then I don't agree with the prompt. Family separation is not really necessary because they all can be deported together. But here's the thing.
A lot of times the people that are here illegally, they want their kid to stay in America, more opportunities, whatever. and then they go back to their country of origin because they don't have a choice. They're choosing to keep their family separated. That's not our fault. That just because you have a child doesn't mean that you and your child get to stay here.
>> I would really quickly just want to interject. Um I don't even think the kids should be staying in that instance even if they're technically American citizens because I don't view them as that. Uh the 14th amendment was created so slaves children could become citizens. Not so any illegal immigrant who wants to come to America and pop a baby out can make their kid a citizen.
This is just based on the Constitution though. I think that's like why like me and her were saying that, you know, for the babies that are born here as citizens.
>> I don't think I think they should repeal that law and I think they're attempting to now. Uh the Supreme Court's going to be ruling on that in the next few months. But yeah, I don't I don't think birthright citizenship should be a thing.
>> I agree, but I feel like that's a conversation for like future kids. I don't think we can take away citizenship now. I feel like we have >> Yeah, it would be hard to retroact.
>> Yeah, we would have to apply that for kids in the future.
>> Yeah. And at the end of the day, it's the parents responsibility. If you come here and you know you're illegal, you know there's a chance of deportation.
No, every single person that comes here legal knows this. So if you actually want to stay in this country with the kids that were born here, then you should go and start going through that process to become a citizen. And if you don't do it, that's your fault. You're not actually taking care of your family in the full way you should be. If you know there's a chance of deportation, then you start going through the process as quickly and as fast as possible that you can. Yeah, sometimes it is slower, but a lot of people they don't even try.
I've talked to people that have been in the country 10, 15 years. They haven't even started their path to citizenship.
They just don't they because they're just like, "Oh, I'm just going to keep getting away with it as long as I possibly can." And that actually hurts the people that are actually actively trying to go through the pathways to get their citizenship.
>> I mean, where do we start? I think um I think I I don't remember who said it but something about birthright citizenship and that confuses me a little bit because literally anybody who is born in this country has citizenship right they don't have to go through a very deep process like migrants do. So is if your premise is that we should just take that away, are we taking that away for everybody and now everybody then has to go through some sort of documentation process? At what age does that documentation process then start?
Because you can't just pick and choose, right? You can't just say that you're only going to apply it for the kids of migrants and not to the kids of every citizen.
>> Yes. Because they would be citizens because their parents are citizens. If you're not a citizen of America and you come into America and you have a kid to give your kid citizenship because you think it'll give you a better chance at staying or you think you're doing something better for your child, you are not only putting your child at risk because their parent might now get deported, but it's also abusing a loophole in a law that should not be there in the first place. It was made for the creation of slave children.
>> So, you're saying citizenship is a loophole now?
>> Uh, I'm saying birthright citizenship, having an anchor baby in this country as an illegal immigrant.
>> But that implies that implies intent. So what you're you're assuming is that every migrant who has a baby in this country is automatically just wanting that to go through a loophole. How about if it's one um a citizen parent and a non-citizen parent having a baby? Would that baby in your opinion of birthright citizenship? Should uh you know when if >> No, I don't think it should be rewarded citizenship >> even if at least one parent had >> I actually think you should charge the husband for aiding and abetting a crime for protecting an illegal immigrant.
>> Yeah. Um, I agree and disagree. Like I understand there's a loophole and I could definitely see where he's coming from and I understand it completely. And then when she brought up the point where one and one like I mean I think that's a good middle ground. I mean we're here for a middle ground. So I mean I respect exactly where he's coming from. I could disagree with him but I'll respect exactly where he's coming from because I understand it.
>> It's a more extreme take to some. I I get it.
>> I just don't think we should separate people in general. Separate family members in general. Like family is very important to me. And the idea of people being separated just entirely based off immigration status. It's crazy. And you guys are out here debating whether or not like with a smile.
>> Yes.
>> So here here >> these people as human beings Americans are humans.
>> Um I guess I don't understand how you guys can sit here and want to separate families. I get your side. whatever. But I don't understand how you could sit here and just be pro- separating families. That's just me.
>> Not that we want it to happen. You're just taking accountability all the way from the parents that should be going through the legal processes. And actually, if we're giving them the option to either get deported with their family or stay here, they're actually separating their families within themselves actually because they have the final decision.
>> Well, you say we, but he disagrees with you. If we have to sit through all of this like Nick Fuentes griper incel talking about anchor babies, okay, this is about white supremacy.
He's proving it right now. That's pure and simple. You don't stop. Excuse me. I mean, I think ultimately we're missing out something. We're missing out on what it fundamentally means to be human beings. And there is a premise. The premise are that these people are not human beings. They're being dehumanized.
And so it doesn't matter what happens to them. We can throw them in detention camps. We can kick them out because fundamentally the rhetoric that is coming from DHS, the rhetoric that is coming from the White House is about the great replacement theory and these are your people. You you are on board with this. I can see by you messing you're about it. Yeah. Okay. See, this is this is white supremacy. the rhetoric that has been coming from the president, from Steven Miller, from DHS on the official websites, they're actively promoting white supremacist tropes. Okay. It's not funny.
>> It is.
>> So, I I want to go back to the question about family separation. The reason that I did not step forward is because I think that there is actually a much better way of going about what to do with the families that are going to be affected if uh somebody is found to be undocumented. And what's actually happening with family separation right now is that either yes, the parent is being removed, whether they're being put in ICE detention or um they are being actively deported. Um that the children of these people are then either left because they are considered US citizens or they are also now being put in ICE detention centers even if they are citizens. I think that fundamentally creates a lot of chaos within the system and it's actually been proven because we have uh for instance a reporter out of the Washington Post who has been documented um or who has been documenting the process of what a person goes through whether it's an adult or a child in these ICE detention centers in order to not have such a chaotic system which overrides everything. I think that the best way to deal with the children of migrants if that child is then also a migrant, I think that you can do it in such a way where you go through a documentation process for everybody and that way they are allowed citizenship if that is what the court decides. Other than that, separating families has already proven to be extremely chaotic, extremely traumatic for everybody involved, both the parents and the children. And I don't think you actually have to go through that. Um I think that there are much better ways of dealing with this which includes again a better and easier pathway to citizenship >> and regardless of whatever the political party is because you're right it did happen under Obama. But I want to tell you something that is really distinct. I actually got to work with DHS when the regime changed to Biden. And again, I have a lot of critique for the Biden administration as well. And what we did, what we were asked to do by the same staff who worked under Trump who described the horrible conditions for these children, suffering children. We were asked to bring in clowns, musicians, something that and and I agree. I I think the whole thing is deplorable, but the experience that these children got to have under the next regime was dramatically different.
And if you can cosign the behavior of of mistreating children like that, I just I don't know. I don't know what to say about it. I It's >> Kids in Juvia are treated pretty poorly, too. And who put the kids in cages in the first place? Just curious. Do you know >> that's happened under under every >> Who put them in there in the first place?
>> And it was bad for them, too.
>> I agree.
>> It was Obama who did it. First of all, second of all, like I said, the kids in juvie are treated just as poorly. It's irrelevant.
>> But you think the entire thing is just an emotional wrong.
>> We can fix all we can fix all the systems that treated mistreated is emotional.
>> Yes, you can.
>> And if you don't if you don't think so, you are a psychopath.
>> ICE detention conditions are inhumane.
>> Yeah. Um there's been really good reporting on the ICE detention centers and the process that people have to go through.
The inhumane conditions in these detention centers is really really difficult to stomach. Quite honestly, every administration has honestly failed uh when it comes to not just deporting but also when it comes to the detention centers. I think what's uh specific right now is that we have an administration that is trying to fasttrack everything and opening up new detention centers and they are there's no oversight, right? They're not letting uh congressional members, for instance, who have a legal duty to um come and oversee what is actually happening at the detention centers. I think one of the um biggest biggest setbacks uh was alligator Alcatra, right? Just even that name, it it just goes to show the intention. The intention is not to have people go through their proper due process. It's literally shoving people into a small room with two toilets if they're lucky. Hopefully, there's plumbing. Hopefully, there's uh AC and electricity in order to make sure that they're not dying of heat exhaustion, for instance. There's just been so much good reporting on what's happening inside of there that I don't think you could honestly say that the conditions are are safe.
>> It's so much worse than that. Actually, um I have been part of organizing efforts to organize national coalitions to stop the camps. So, if you go to stopthecamps.com, you can see what's happening. According to whistleblowers, maggots in the food, people have being forced to live uh in their own feces, women being denied sanitary pro products, so they've been given diapers. These diapers pile up. Um they've been deni like as you said, denied access to uh to lawyers, and they're actually put in places that are like Alligator Alcatraz, uh so remote that they cannot get their constitutionally guaranteed right to due process. It's also cruel and unusual punishment, which is also a violation of the eth amendment. So, we're violating >> the fourth amendment, the fifth amendment, the sixth amendment, the eth amendment, uh the 14th amendment. Uh the 13th amendment, if they are uh refusing to work and they're being punished for it because the 13th amendment um essentially doesn't allow slavery. So, >> yeah, >> I obviously agree. I had a friend who they took and they weren't feeding him for a week on time. It's proven that these institutions, the the top two companies that are getting these detention center contracts are massively failing and they're hiking up the prices, right? They have a per bed rate and uh and that money is not going towards the care of these human beings.
Um you can't just throw money and just put up a warehouse and hope for the best. You actually have to go through the legal process of making sure that that is a safe environment. Whether you think that person is a criminal or not is irrelevant. It's still a person.
>> But I think that's the that's the whole point is that Core Civic and the Geog Group are massive Trump donors and this is what we get because it is a profit motive. That's why they're spinning up warehouses. They're turning over bases.
The point is they don't have the violent criminals. So just like the schoolto prison pipeline, just like our our broken criminal justice system, they are now having to inflate uh the numbers and go after people who are working in the fields, people who are working in restaurants. They have to do that to fill these quotas and to to fill these beds. But underlying it all is uh the rankest corporate greed. And if you you can actually listen to some of the investor calls, it's disgusting. And these are human rights violations. And I do think that eventually uh these people are going to all face prosecution like the trials.
>> I was going to say I came up because being in jail no matter what is inhumane on some level. Uh it's not supposed to be rewarding. It's supposed to be punishing. It's supposed to be a time of reflection and it's also supposed to be a place of holding. It's not supposed to be a Hilton. It's not supposed to be a Marriott. It is a cell. It is a containment. So, I don't think it's supposed to. I think anybody who is put in a cell or cage of any kind is not necessarily being treated like the majority of humans are treated. I'm not in a cage right now, for example, to make it obvious.
>> So, you don't think they deserve basic human necessities and rights?
>> I never said they don't deserve basic human necessities. What I said is if you are being contained in any way in that manner, you're of course going to be able to define it as inhumane. We're talking about maggots in the food. We're talking about sleeping in their feces, sleeping in their own vomit.
That's your fault.
>> No, they're they have no choice. They don't have access to toilets.
>> Yes, >> the dingus.
>> So, wait, you're saying yes, ICE detention centers are inhumane, but you're saying that's a good thing.
>> I never said it's a good I I It's not a good or bad thing, >> but you think they're getting what they deserved.
>> Yeah.
>> I never said they're getting what they deserve. I said they're being contained.
and they're being contained in the manner that we're able to afford to do.
So, >> do you think that it is okay in America for these people to be living in those conditions >> to feed someone maggots and let them themselves?
>> It's very obvious that no, the majority of people should not be fed maggots, but they're not being fed maggots. The majority of people >> according to what source do trust me?
>> No, according to the data, we would have a lot more people dead in these. We'd have a lot of course people die in prison as well. But we would have a prison, not jail.
>> People die in jail. Sweetheart, >> are you a misogynist?
>> You keep calling the women sweetheart.
Is he a sweetheart?
>> He might be. I don't know. LA.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> Can I just say why I came up here? That was the main thing where she said that it's been going on through each presidency. If we look at back at Obama and Biden, it was the same thing where they were lacking medical care. It's been happening from each presidency.
It's about 5 to 10 deaths in these detention camps each year. And then for Trump's first year, it's actually exceeded that at 30. So that's why I kind of agree because it just had they haven't been receiving the medical care.
But you also have to see the influx of the legals that came across is also contributing because they have to build these places as quick as possible to deport as many people as possible because we had such an influx that what you're describing did not happen to the same degree the treatment did not happen. And again, I agree with you. The treatment under Biden and Obama, I have no defense for it. I'm not going to sit there and defend it. I fought it through every single uh administration. And I think it's deplorable. And I also have enough uh having worked with DHS on this to know that the treatment is not the same. And if you look at the contracts going to core civic and uh and Geog Group and the way that they're managing this, mismanaging it uh is not the same.
So I reject your >> and and even that just to kind of back that up, you know, we've talked financially as well. So the Trump administration has drastically inflated the budget to fund all of this, right?
not just to open the detention centers, but to actually staff them properly to make sure that they are feeding people properly. But the reality is that they're not doing that. So even though Obama also had a really really horrible record, so did Biden, >> if we are being morally consistent and admitting that, I think you guys also have to admit that if they are inflating the budget to ensure that this money is actually going to fund these centers, then why aren't they? Because they could easily fix it, right? Like the the budget is massive at this point. your side is not being morally consistent about this, even if you think that they are criminals, then you also have to then advocate for making sure that these detention centers are humane. And I'm not seeing that from your side. So, I I'm glad that you're admitting that that is your position. You're the first person that I've heard from your side to admit it.
>> But moral consistency has nothing to do with funding. So, now there's more funding. They have less than a year to do it. We had the influx of the highest of all time since the US was created.
The most illegals came across the board in the past four years out of any time in US history. Sometimes they're not going to staff correctly. They're going to make buildings maybe not up to permit codes. Things are going to happen. And I'm not saying it should happen. I wish it didn't >> because of profit margins. Okay.
>> That's >> So are you guys for independent audits >> and government audits? Yeah, >> I think there should be. Yeah, it'd be great if they could, you know, call their lawyer. There's no pathway audits on the financials.
>> I think there should be audits across the board. I also think that you should allow congressional members to make their own audits, right? There should be audits across the board, whether they're independent, statewide. There should be.
The problem is that there aren't.
They're not allowing Congress members to go and do their legal duty. And there's, again, there's so much evidence for this. So, I understand that you disagree, but the facts are the facts.
>> Okay. Um, so the reason I didn't step forward, I just really simply think that if you came into this country illegally, America does not owe you anything. Yes, ideally they would have humane conditions, but at the end of the day, Trump gave them the option to self-deport even a $1,000 check if you go home now. But they said, you know, you can still have a chance to come back. If you sell the port now, we'll even give you over $1,000 and you know, you can figure it out and you might have a chance to come back. If you decide to stay in this country knowing that there's a mass deportation going on and then they had to go out and deport you, you can't then be like, "Oh, these aren't humane conditions. You know, we don't owe you anything. We don't owe these immigrants anything." So, I don't I mean, I think that look, food and water, sure, but if you're talking about like all these different medications that people need, why should a taxpayers have to pay for that? I think taxpayer dollars should be focused on American citizens, not people that came to this country illegally. So you can cry about the conditions all you want, but at the end of the day, it's your fault that you're in those conditions.
>> We're not asking for that level, though.
What we're asking for is basic human rights, and medication is a basic human right. People will die if they don't get their medications. Do you know to American citizens? American citizens have died because they couldn't afford medication >> just because they came to this country and they didn't go through the documentation process that you prefer that they should die because of it.
>> No, I'm saying that there's American citizens that have died because they could not afford medication. So why do you think you're entitled to get medication for free because you're illegal?
>> Because the constitution says that doesn't say you get medication for free.
>> The constitution says you have a civil rights.
>> Uh first off, I agree with you. Everyone has a right to access to healthcare. I completely agree with that point. Um, but you said, "Oh, we don't have the money." Uh, that money that you're talking about isn't being spent on money Medicare. This administration just rolled back all of the healthc care subsidies. They're closing They're closing hospitals. Okay. And yes, if we detain something, we are obligated to meet the minimum requirements for human rights. We are. And guess where a lot of that money is going? Do you do you think that if we just took a little bit of that $100 million that Christy Gnome used to make propaganda videos for herself and just fed people food? Like it's a ridiculous argument you're making.
>> I think food and water is the basic necessity. Anything above that is >> Yeah, but the food has maggots and they're not being given.
>> Every single food has maggots. I think that was I think that was wrong or they should have been more on top of that.
I'm not going to argue that that was acceptable. I'm just saying I think food and water No. I'm just saying food and water should be the the like what you I think that everything else is a privilege after food and water.
>> Oh, not you. No, >> you were rude.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Me, too.
>> The end of everything.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> I hope the camera gets nice to meet you.
>> You guys are fine.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Absolutely.
>> That was so tolerant left.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you.
>> Nice to meet you, brother.
>> You were great. I >> You were also fire. Thank you.
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