18th Century Irish Soldiers

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[00:00:02]This show is part of the Head Stuff Podcast Network.

[00:00:06]>> Hello and welcome to Shy Talk, an Irish history podcast. Today we're joined for the third time.

[00:00:14]>> So we calculated >> by Dr. Andrew Dorman. I think you' just gotten your doctorate the second time.

[00:00:21]>> I was submitted.

[00:00:22]>> Okay. So now, so over the course of these three episodes, we've seen you go from >> boy to man to doctor. this is your final form.

[00:00:29]>> I think I'm officially considered an early career historian now, which is incredibly optimistic suggesting I'm going to have a career, >> but I find that it's a fun field to be in. Um, we were just talking about aging there before we started recording.

[00:00:40]History is a fun field to be in because we're young books.

[00:00:43]>> Yeah.

[00:00:43]>> You know, in every other area, we're slowly dying and becoming irrelevant.

[00:00:47]You move into the history field, you're young whippersnapp with crazy ideas.

[00:00:50]>> Yeah, it's great. I uh was at a conference once where the keynote speaker spent 50 minutes saying telling all the young historians how they'll never be good as the historians that he worked with and he did a photo montage of all his favorite elderly white dudes like this is very motivational. Thanks man.

[00:01:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um but you've uh you've published a book then >> I have. I have a book now.

[00:01:15]>> Yes.

[00:01:15]>> Uh it's it's got a really snappy title.

[00:01:17]It's the British Army Society and Soldiering in Ireland 1699 to 1793.

[00:01:22]>> Beautiful.

[00:01:23]>> Very very specific date range.

[00:01:24]>> You picked a very specific period to purposely avoid >> any of the bits that anyone knows about.

[00:01:31]>> Yeah, in essence. Yeah, cuz I didn't I don't do the bo.

[00:01:34]>> No, you Yeah, you're right after. So, yeah. 1690 big defining battle. There's an awful lot written about that big impact in culture. 1798 and all the like late 1790s. the um like yeah everything happened in Belfast and then like Robert Emmed in 1802. So that's you've avoided those beautifully and focused on the period the Protestant ascendancy. Yes.

[00:01:56]>> The period that most historians just kind of handwave over and nothing happened.

[00:02:00]>> Exactly.

[00:02:00]>> I think it's the longest run without a rebellion on the island. Is that right?

[00:02:04]>> Well, I think it's cuz the Scots were doing most of the rebelling. So >> they're doing what the Stewart re >> 1715 45 as well. So uh and there's I think there's one in between there as well. So they're doing most of the leg work I think in the kind of >> mass uprising against uh the monarchy.

[00:02:22]>> Sure.

[00:02:22]>> Whereas Ireland under the penal laws has a trickier time of >> and all our soldiers have gone the flight of the wild geese.

[00:02:30]>> Yeah.

[00:02:31]>> They've all left the island and as you're going to tell us the ones that stay behind a lot of them put on the red coat and >> Yeah.

[00:02:39]>> pitched in for the queen.

[00:02:41]>> Pitch king and queen.

[00:02:42]>> Yeah. Sure. Uh, queen at the beginning and then king, usually German king as we move through the century.

[00:02:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that black outer clip was describing I'm as English as the queen. Oh, so you're married a German, your dad's a German, and you're half German. Yeah.

[00:02:57]>> You know that, but better written by um, itonians.

[00:03:02]>> Look, I'M AS BRITISH AS QUEEN VICTORIA.

[00:03:04]>> SO, YOUR FATHER'S GERMAN, YOU'RE half German, and you married a German.

[00:03:09]>> No, for God's sake. I GOT A GERMAN SPY.

[00:03:13]>> GOOD. THANKS VERY MUCH. Into the next mast.

[00:03:15]>> Do you want to talk us through why did you pick >> this period?

[00:03:20]>> Yeah. So when I finished my masters uh which looked at the wild geese and specifically the ones in French service, >> I took a year to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and worked in a games workshop which made me realize I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.

[00:03:36]>> Which games workshop?

[00:03:37]>> The one in Dublin.

[00:03:38]>> Okay. Oh, like the one on Liy Street.

[00:03:40]>> On Liby Street.

[00:03:41]>> Yeah. Which was fun.

[00:03:42]>> Yeah. Just out of shot. Here is a big box of Corkazon, which you were very excited by.

[00:03:47]>> Oh, hell yeah.

[00:03:48]>> I left it out like bait.

[00:03:51]>> I was going to tidy it away as a Andrew like this.

[00:03:54]>> Yeah. Uh I am >> It's in my ey line. I'm just going to >> make a mess with cheese.

[00:04:02]>> All he needs is a really nuanced board game. That'll >> Yeah, the expansion pack. Oh my god.

[00:04:07]>> It's so sophisticated. Um, >> some of these are banned in the French professional circuit.

[00:04:14]>> Oh, is there a professional? I'm not going to >> There definitely >> There definitely is. They pay play with giant pieces, but go on.

[00:04:20]>> Yep.

[00:04:21]>> It's up for the spectator. You know, they need >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about Herlemand being a spectator sport.

[00:04:26]Try French Carcasson >> or as they call it, Carcasson.

[00:04:30]>> Yeah.

[00:04:32]>> But um Yeah. So, I This has got to be the These are always the nerdiest episodes when we have you and things.

[00:04:41]I swear I'm cool. I play the guitar.

[00:04:45]>> Um, but I getting into academia proper, you need a PhD and a PhD is a very difficult thing to get uh because you don't get paid during it most of the time.

[00:04:55]>> Yeah. So I needed to find funding and the only real way to do that was to apply for uh state funding through the what was what was then the Irish research council is now research Ireland and I didn't get that but I saw DCU were advertising a scholarship for their PhDs. So I looked at their list of academics and one of the big names there uh who my PhD supervisor who then also lent a bit of a hand with the book was um professor James Kelly and he's written a lot about everything okay encyclopedic knowledge on the period. So I arrived into his office and I was like listen I want to do something about the Irish abroad and he didn't say no but he heavily suggested I do something else >> and he did point out that there was a gap in the market and no one had really looked at the garrison >> in the 18th century that people had looked at it from the perspective of them as a oppressive force on the people and people have looked at it as a state operations sort of thing as an expenditure as an expense for the state but no one had looked at their experiences and match them to the people's experiences. So that kind of was the genesis of the project. So it's not that it would chose me, but it was >> selected for me.

[00:06:07]>> Well, he sold you a lemon where you walked in and was like, I want to talk about the fighting Irish abroad. He's like, no one's ever done a history about how the British felt during arguably the most boring period, the least glamorous hundred years in Irish history. What was the British told experience on the island? You're not entirely wrong and I might be misremembering it but yeah in in essence that's sort of how it works but to his credit and he was right no one had done it and um I think the reason partially is because when you look at the 18th century most of the material was incinerated in the 1920s >> uh during the civil war uh so lucky you >> yeah so you have to look elsewhere typically London but also online a lot of newspapers survive so it it it would have taken the focus of a PhD to do the leg work because once you it's one of the few times in a research career where you can just sit down and just spend days researching because once you get into a lecturesship or something like that you also have to teach and grade and your summer you might get to do some research if you're lucky and you're not doing conferences and stuff. So it's it's sustain it's an opportunity to do sustained research. So, I was able to put in the leg work, do the ground work, and >> um >> look at a lot of old newspapers and produce that >> a beautiful piece of Well, this is um a Well, what's You're doing a book launch this week, are you?

[00:07:28]>> I am. Yeah. Uh so, >> this is one of the rare occasions where this episode will actually be out before the thing.

[00:07:33]>> Oh, wow.

[00:07:33]>> But yeah, it's going to be out tomorrow.

[00:07:35]>> To it. It's on It's on in the >> Yeah.

[00:07:37]>> Uh it's in the Bellevier Library at 6:00 till half 7.

[00:07:43]>> Yes. I think >> on Thursday.

[00:07:45]>> On Thursday.

[00:07:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:46]>> Which is this Thursday.

[00:07:47]>> Please email me if you want to turn off cuz I need to know how much wine to buy.

[00:07:53]>> See, there's going to be free. It's going to be a Yeah. a wine and cheese academic affair.

[00:07:57]>> But there'll be a significant discount.

[00:07:59]I can't advertise what the discount's going to be. There'll be a significant discount.

[00:08:03]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:04]>> We don't need to talk about the sticker price of the We don't. Yeah. But it'll be significantly more uh accessible.

[00:08:11]>> Yes.

[00:08:12]>> Yes. That was remarkably diplomatic.

[00:08:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah. Um that's one of the few bits of marketing I had lodged in my brain. You don't call something cheap because it sounds cheap.

[00:08:22]>> Yes.

[00:08:22]>> Um >> we want to cheapen.

[00:08:24]>> No. Exactly. More accessible.

[00:08:26]>> Do you call something expensive? It's >> Yeah.

[00:08:29]>> Then it's premium.

[00:08:29]>> Then it's premium. Yeah. Yeah. Luxury.

[00:08:31]>> Luxury. Yeah.

[00:08:32]>> This is luxury research right here.

[00:08:36]>> H Well, what do you want to give us a preview of what what are you going to be talking about on Thursday?

[00:08:40]>> Not a huge amount.

[00:08:41]>> Okay. So the the book launches I we were doing like seven minutes of thanks thank yous and it's not so much a lecture as it is like stand around have a chat and then if people want to chat to me directly they can and I'll do a little bit of I think uh professor Kelly will do an introduction to the book itself.

[00:08:58]So he'll do most of the talking and uh then >> I'll say cheers for coming.

[00:09:02]>> Will you read a chapter from the book and if so which chapter?

[00:09:06]>> Well there's so many to choose from. So it's all so exciting. Uh, no. I don't I don't I don't believe in that sort of thing. I always found that a little bit weird when the author does that cuz I mean they may not be a professional voice actor and they might actually be underelling their own.

[00:09:20]>> No. No. But you'll love it though because the amount of book launches I've been to and you get captive audience.

[00:09:26]>> Yeah.

[00:09:26]>> Where people they are drinking but no one's going to the bar.

[00:09:29]>> Yes.

[00:09:30]>> It's like as a comedian I think I'd always I'd love to do a book just for the launch. It's the easiest set you're ever going to have. People laugh at every joke. Like no matter what it is, do you just >> We'll do a book launch. We'll do a book together, Jay. I don't know what it'll be about, but >> a picture book. A a pop-up picture book.

[00:09:46]>> British soldiers through the ages. But you were saying before we started recording that you're getting a bit of push back from um a re-evaluing of Ireland's role in the British Empire.

[00:09:59]>> Yeah. Uh the Academy has some things to say about it, I think. So again, how do I make this accessible? Uh or diplomatic >> or cheap.

[00:10:10]>> Yeah. Or cheap. Um in the book I talk a lot about how many Irish joined the British army in the 18th century and it swung from anywhere between 20 up to 40% in some case. Some regiments up to 70 80%. And then the cavalry who didn't really leave the uh island very much at all were in the '9s like really high percentage. Now those were mostly Protestant boys clubs for like the local gentry. Um but a huge number of in normal people did also join the army of all denominations even though they weren't technically allowed to. So it was a viable career path. A lot of them took it and figuring out why they were taking it or assuming they were taking it for a certain reason is problematic. You can't just say well if they enlisted they were pro the crown pro the establishment. There was probably more to it than that. A lot of them are joining to clear gambling debts or because they they are they need regular food and the army was a regular source of sustenance. Now there's a systemic issue as to why they may not have food.

[00:11:12]>> Sure.

[00:11:14]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:14]>> But nonetheless, >> the army giveth and the army taketh away.

[00:11:18]>> Yeah. Or enabling the taketh away. But there's also a famine in the 1740s. So it's entirely >> Yeah. The great famine gets a lot of press, but there are a lot of other smaller very disturbing ones.

[00:11:29]>> Scrappy up andcoming famines.

[00:11:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the young famines, they walked so that it could run.

[00:11:34]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:34]>> But uh well, luckily Touchwood, uh it was the last famine, so yeah, it gets a lot of the press. But >> yeah, you'd imagine >> it's a steady career. Uh you do the old classic of you get to see the world, I suppose, a lot of travel. Uh >> it's it's a living and what there's a really interesting pattern that we see.

[00:11:54]So you mentioned at the beginning um a lot of the soldiers went to fight for the French during the flight of the or the Spanish uh in the late 17th early 18th century.

[00:12:03]>> Um we can see that as French recruitment becomes less accessible more join the British army like there's definitely a relationship there. So it is a matter of accessibility and convenience and once Catholic and Protestant recruitment is sanctioned into the British army very few are crossing the English Channel to get to France. So it is more a case of well I can become a soldier here or more conveniently I can enlist down the road >> locally. Yeah.

[00:12:29]>> And why yeah cuz the penal laws technically would have kept Irish people out of uh or Catholics out of any position that would have had them near guns basically >> in theory.

[00:12:38]>> In theory. Yes. But like everything it is a lot looser than it seems because >> armies need soldiers. And in this particular case, the army as it was in Ireland was it it's a garrison and it is did there to make sure that the state operations function as they're supposed to, but also it's a barracks for the empire. So regiments are very quickly taken from Ireland and sent elsewhere.

[00:13:03]Uh the there's a famous case of this in 1755. Um the general Bradock is told go sort out what's going on in North America. So he pulls two regiments out of Ireland, takes them into a the forest and they get cut to pieces at the battle of Manonga by the French and Canadian militia and then their Native American allies.

[00:13:21]>> So those regiments would probably have been rapidly recruited, mostly Irish >> and then shipped across the sea. So that need to recruit rapidly locally and the fact that you're at a comparative disadvantage as an officer if you're recruiting in Britain for regiments in Ireland.

[00:13:42]>> Irish soldiers are paid less. So if you're if you're an English farmer >> and a regiment from Ireland >> approaches you and says, "I can pay you six p a day." And the English regiment says, "I'm going to pay you 7 p a day."

[00:13:55]>> You're going to go the way the money is.

[00:13:58]Yeah. So you would struggle to recruit in Britain. You're naturally going to recruit locally. Um so there's a load of reasons why. And some of them they'll do these they have clever tricks. Well, they'll ship them over to Scotland and list them as Scots and then bring them back, >> you know. So >> it's a it's an accessible pool of manpower. So it's in the army's interest to recruit locally even though technically, oh, we're arming Catholics.

[00:14:18]And so the state mightn't have liked it, but the army didn't really care. At the end of the day, >> if they can follow orders, stand in a line and get shot at. Big thumbs up.

[00:14:28]>> And even if you got one of those three, they're getting shot at. That's pretty good.

[00:14:31]>> That's pretty good. And um the Irish in this century do a pretty good line in fighting generally. Like the quality of the soldiers is seen as quite good. The Spanish thought that we could march for days on very little rations. We're kind of shock troops in the French service and did very well there. Um and then the Irish regiments and British service slowly develop their own identity. And by the Napoleonic Wars, you have dedicated Irish regiments with quite a strong hybr.

[00:14:58]>> Well, so you've also you're narrowly avoiding the Napoleonic Wars in this book as well.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah.

[00:15:04]>> Too glamorous.

[00:15:05]>> It's it's been done.

[00:15:06]>> It's been done. Yeah. I mean, Ridley Scott after that, you're like, what more needs to be said?

[00:15:12]>> When such a beautiful opus, he there's no point following that.

[00:15:16]>> I mean, this is it.

[00:15:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, >> was I there?

[00:15:20]>> Was I there?

[00:15:21]>> I can't. Is that I I don't know. Is that a true quote from him? But did he say something like >> Oh yeah, he said that uh history shouldn't criticize my movie because were you there? We don't know what happened. We don't know what Napoleon did. Has it happened? We do. He wrote it down as did loads of other people at the time.

[00:15:37]>> Maybe he did shoot cannons at the pyramid. There's literally no way to check.

[00:15:44]>> Like >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:45]>> Because if you open it up to that then he could do anything. Like he could just fly off in the end. He could still be living.

[00:15:50]>> He should have.

[00:15:51]>> Yeah. have been a better ending.

[00:15:52]>> Oh, I I have so many issues with that film. I I came out Oh, I saw it with a friend of mine and I walked home with I walked in the wrong direction from my house because I needed to decompress and rant about why this film was so terrible.

[00:16:04]>> I did the same thing with the first Joker movie, but it was historically inaccurate. H as I think again before we started recording, we were talking about getting back to the uh your um assertion. Well, yeah, you're talking about uh maybe the less glamorous side of Irish military stuff. We were talking before about Arthur Wesley Wellington.

[00:16:26]It's a classic example of celebr he's up there probably with Nelson in terms of defeating Napoleon. That's a big in the British pantheon of, >> you know, >> success, >> things they like banging on about.

[00:16:37]There's Yeah. The World Cup, World War II, and then Napoleon definitely for uh people's like a big victory. Yeah.

[00:16:43]>> And Wellington is a big hand in that.

[00:16:45]Dublin board man a massive obelisk to him here in Phoenix Park >> not much we don't talk about him much certainly don't celebrate him I would say >> and it's I suppose the political side of his career later on now this I'm I'm getting out of my comfort zone >> yeah so this is squarely after 1793 so sorry >> but as he is prime minister as well I I wouldn't say he necessarily forgets his Irish roots and he does like his politics are a little more pro Ireland than some of his compatriots Obviously, you have to bear in mind the time in which these things are being no one's going to come in with sweeping reforms and grant Ireland its Republican status immediately like you know they're still operating.

[00:17:24]>> He didn't get in and then immediately unfurled a tricolor which no didn't exist yet.

[00:17:28]>> No, it's very too too far too French.

[00:17:29]>> Too far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:32]>> Uh where thericolor is probably 1830s.

[00:17:36]>> Could be. Yeah. Again, >> it's after 1793. I'm sorry.

[00:17:39]>> Exactly. Who cares?

[00:17:40]>> Yeah.

[00:17:42]That's too well. And again, we're we don't need to talk about Arlo Wesley, but that's that's a prime example of like so what? Yeah. So, going back probably the biggest I may be wrong on this, but I think the biggest military activity that the British Empire gets involved in in this period is the American Revolution.

[00:18:01]>> Okay. Yeah, good question. So, I would say the Seven Years War is probably a bigger war.

[00:18:06]>> Yeah. uh cuz multi-theater um it's the f uh not the first modern war but is the first one that is fought on that scale.

[00:18:14]>> British soldiers fight in India, European theater proper and then North America. The American Revolution is such a serious affair that they do contribute a huge amount of manpower across the Atlantic. I can't remember off the top of my head and I probably should know which had a larger military uh >> contribution but um the re really good data exists for the American Revolutionary War. The Seven Years War is a little bit more opaque. So I'm more aware of the contribution to the American Revolutionary War and there was Irish on both sides of that.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah. And I was before we started recording, I was complaining that um when you look at the Irish contribution to on the American side, they're willing to accept grandchildren, great-grandchildren, anyone with an O in the two names. Oh, clearly is Irish. And uh you know, the Irish won the war for uh Washington. And I have data that show that a huge number were born on the island that century and joined and then went and fought. but they're not considered Irish. And I think that >> is it's not necessarily doing them a disservice. But it's taking away history is all about representing the people of the past in his best in as most accurate a light. It's not necessarily a best light.

[00:19:34]>> You know that's not true. History is about picking and choosing. You know, Paulry Pierce is a gun wielding soldier.

[00:19:41]Arthur Wesley is just some nerd. We talk about him.

[00:19:44]>> He was a nerd in >> he was. Yeah. Sure.

[00:19:46]>> Although better in bed than Napoleon.

[00:19:47]>> Oh yeah.

[00:19:48]>> Yeah. Apparently, they both >> Pierce.

[00:19:50]>> Yeah.

[00:19:50]>> I don't think Pierce had the same relationship with that particular woman.

[00:19:54]But >> the less said about his bedroom activities, the better. But >> moving on.

[00:19:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess so, the overall Yeah. The point I'm getting at, I guess, is that uh the we've talked about this a few times on the podcast, but uh yeah, Irish people, we just pick and choose who is Irish and who is British. If they've done anything bad anywhere around the world, British. If they've done anything good anywhere around the world, Irish. And this is a part that isn't really talked about in uh we yeah last week we were doing an episode on norid and there was an interesting quote I can't remember the guy but the at the start of the documentary he's saying that Irish Americans spend so much time trying to get into the mindset of get in touch with their Irish nish understand Irish people understand Ireland and Irish people never put any thought into understanding the Irish American experience. No.

[00:20:39]>> Which is true, but it is interesting.

[00:20:42]But >> well, it's the same for you like any of us like Catholics and Protestants like we were like Irish Catholic. I don't know. I don't I've never been to a Protestant mass.

[00:20:49]>> I don't know what it is.

[00:20:50]>> Yeah.

[00:20:50]>> I don't know what they do.

[00:20:52]>> It's pretty similar.

[00:20:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. I maybe that's the scary part. You realize that we're not so different. But >> I was at a Protestant wedding once.

[00:21:00]Well, cuz the only thing I don't remember is like in secondary school, one of the girls in our uh in like Baglastown, she was Protestant because usually the Protestants would go to like Kenny College or like to a fee paying school, but uh she didn't got could go into like the u the hall to get the ashes on Ash Wednesday.

[00:21:18]>> Yeah.

[00:21:18]>> Cuz she that was like, "Oh, that's the only little glimpse into there's a difference between you and I."

[00:21:22]>> I think in general there's less pageantry and less focus on the misery in Protestantism. Ironic given its origins, >> sure, but le Yeah. Less stained glass stuff and less >> uh we're all worthless worms.

[00:21:36]>> Yeah. Lots of uh iconoclasms.

[00:21:39]>> Yeah.

[00:21:39]>> And that kind of >> and stripping out all the wealth of the church, that sort of thing.

[00:21:44]>> Yeah. And a lot of deal making and it's just more >> everyone gets together and hangs out with their neighbors over a Sunday and everyone leaves feeling better about themselves.

[00:21:52]>> Yeah.

[00:21:52]>> Which is a unusual experience compared to the Catholic mass >> which is Yeah. Yeah. Slightly more guilt oriented.

[00:21:57]>> Much more guilt oriented. But I think >> it's better.

[00:22:00]>> It is better.

[00:22:01]>> You're guilty. You are guilty.

[00:22:02]>> We are guilty. Yeah.

[00:22:09]>> But I've I've gone way off the point of Yeah. the Irish American experience.

[00:22:14]They have a whole different uh identity and a whole different kind of culture.

[00:22:18]H. And like obviously the Irish fighting in the Civil War and then the War of Independence is a big part of I can tell by your face there that maybe there's some interest in that on that other one as well. But like that's a big part of, you know, the Irish built this country and helped Korea and helped, you know, win the war or whatever. But there's not much focus put on the other side.

[00:22:39]>> Just don't ask who they voted for in the election during the American Civil War.

[00:22:43]The Irish regiments universally voted against Lincoln.

[00:22:46]>> Okay?

[00:22:47]>> They were all voted for Mlen. And as far as I can cuz I I guess there was a huge number of Irishmen fighting for for the Confederacy. Um and the Cath Catholicism was a little bit more acceptable in the south generally speaking. So a lot of the the migrants would have have had it there. Um but then during the civil war the Irish brigade who obviously suffered huge numbers of casualties and you know fought very hard politically was quite not I wouldn't say pro-slavery but they certainly >> you can say anti-slavery >> well I don't think I would that's the thing like I I I wouldn't want to speak too much of again a period that I have I have an interest and looked into but studied extensively >> but there's problems there. Yeah, I think the number is I think it's like 3070 split of Irish on fighting for uh the Confederacy and fighting for the Union. Yeah. And a lot of that is >> well I don't know part of it is geographical. Yeah. Uh a lot of Irish people are going to land naturally in you know New York, Boston those areas are going to be if you're signing up with a regiment again those are the local ones but uh there's a more of a we we were heavily more on the good side of that one I guess. M but there's plenty of guys who switched.

[00:24:05]>> There's plent there's Yeah. There's a lot of people on both sides, but we but going back to >> they're wearing the right uniform.

[00:24:11]>> Sure.

[00:24:12]>> Possibly for the wrong reasons.

[00:24:13]>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you pull them about their opinions about slavery, who knows what the answers would be, but yeah, that one maybe is that's more leaning towards the good side of that fight. But the back into the >> Oh, yeah. The book, right?

[00:24:26]>> Back into what is covered in your book, the American War of Independence. what was the split?

[00:24:32]>> Uh, so I I don't have the percentages off the top of my head for the American side because of the whole generational thing I said before.

[00:24:40]>> I wouldn't know how many first gen or second or third like what what the breakdown is, but looking at the Irish regiment or the regiments that come from Ireland or come via Ireland, there's lots of rapid recruitment and then they're trained quickly or trained on the way and shipped over. Some of the regiments hover around 20 20 to 25%, others are as high as 40. Some again uh the ones that are maybe garrisoned here and know the area and know where they can recruit up to 70 and then a lot of the reserves that are sent to reinforce regiments are just rounded up and dispersed. So you'd have huge numbers crossing this and some of the British commanders get quite annoyed about this.

[00:25:15]It was like will you stop sending us untrained Irishmen for God's sake please send us someone who knows how to hold a gun. So >> they >> for some reason none of these Irish people have seen a gun.

[00:25:27]>> I can't imagine why.

[00:25:28]>> Yeah. Um, so that there's a it's a very significant contribution I think is the crux of the matter and the nature of the fighting as well. It's not it's not a huge cavalry conflict. So it's mostly infantry fighting these sort of either line engagements against a rapidly modernizing American army or trying to chase down Mel Gibson in the woods.

[00:25:53]So that's another thing actually that annoys me about that that film.

[00:25:56]>> Don't you speak a bad word of it. I'm gonna speak a lot of bad words about Mel Gibson, but uh not Mel. Not Mel.

[00:26:02]>> You like the Patriot?

[00:26:03]>> The There's Oh, the Patriot has so many issues. The one >> Yeah. number one. How could it get any better?

[00:26:11]>> Where's the sequel?

[00:26:14]>> But uh the fact that on the British team in the Patriot, there's one American.

[00:26:20]I mean, there was a huge number of loyalists who fought uh for on on in red coats against uh the revolution. I think only third and then there should be loads of Irish and Scots which aren't acknowledged at all. Yeah. And >> Yeah. But the bit where he like he loads his gun and he puts it in like behind a different tree. So I mean it's a cool movie.

[00:26:41]>> You're completely ignoring the rule of cool. You're getting too bogged down in facts and history.

[00:26:47]>> But that's what annoys me so much about Napoleon was that it couldn't do that.

[00:26:51]It's a bad movie. The Patriot is a great movie. Historically problematic. Yes, >> Napoleon is a bad movie. Historically problematic.

[00:26:58]>> Dunkirk somewhere in the middle. A middling movie. Historically also >> Alexander historically accurate. Mostly is.

[00:27:05]>> Yeah.

[00:27:06]>> Not a particularly good movie.

[00:27:07]>> I haven't seen that.

[00:27:09]>> It's the Colin Farrell one.

[00:27:10]>> Yeah.

[00:27:11]>> Yeah.

[00:27:11]>> What's it called? Alexander the Okay.

[00:27:15]>> I don't know if these cameras are on, but um it's an interesting um Yeah.

[00:27:20]Yeah. Again, the Irish American experience is just an interesting element that they will obviously naturally glorify the people of third or whatever generation Irish is tend to fall on the winning side and then ignore.

[00:27:32]>> Well, that's probably cuz it's that's how close they are to their original.

[00:27:35]>> But it but it is also I mean I know we're joking about movies there, but it's also like literally that's what everyone does like Dunkerk and we're looking at a breakdown of like you know when they do panovers of all the people on the beach and they're all uh white English men.

[00:27:48]>> Yeah. and it's completely ignoring. It was a world war. People been drawn in from all over the world. Even all over the British Empire like >> and then what wasn't the uh the captain? It was Canadian was he?

[00:28:01]And then they just rewrote them to be >> probably >> I think they whatever changed it. It's just even even within the confines of like oh they're all part of the British Empire. It's like the British Empire was huge. Yeah.

[00:28:11]>> And there's lots of people from all different walks of life in that and then they've still just like ah it's all men from Sheffield.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah. Anytime anyone does anything remotely Roman, the same people complain about that. So all the Romans were white. So yeah, they also own North Africa.

[00:28:24]>> Yeah, exactly. If you look at the [ __ ] It was the whole Yeah. Everyone who would go on to be the French, the Germans, the Turks, the [ __ ] Carthage. Yeah. Everyone was in the empire was like, "No, they were just >> white men with English accents." Not even Yeah.

[00:28:38]>> Yeah.

[00:28:38]>> Even like [ __ ] Yeah. We Yeah. Sicily is just a melting pot of >> the four empires around the Mediterranean. Anyway, the that's more about representation.

[00:28:49]>> Solving historioggraphy at this point.

[00:28:50]That's >> um But if you put any diversity in any movie, it's woke nonsense.

[00:28:55]>> Of course.

[00:28:55]>> Yeah, of course. But like throw a few Irish accents into something.

[00:28:58]>> Yeah. Throw them on both sides.

[00:29:00]>> Yeah, exactly. We fought for I I'm fairly confident. There's a very good Almarie bit where he talks about how >> There's a lot of good Almary bits.

[00:29:07]>> Yeah. uh where he talks about how Britain has beaten every country in the world and he has the audience shout suggestions and he'll explain how Britain defeated them and he can do pretty much every country. I'd be confident that we have punched every country in the face >> at some point often times in someone else's service a lot of fighting on both sides of lots of conflicts.

[00:29:27]>> Yeah.

[00:29:27]>> U particularly in the 18th but also previous previous centuries too. But the flight of the wild geese, you've got a heavily trained, motivated army that all >> just gets lumped sent off to Europe at the same time. Like that must be a quite unusual occurrence.

[00:29:45]>> Yeah. So, >> so you've got a lot of you've got a very well-trained military army and now they're just guns for hire essentially and heading off to >> like that would do a lot of lifting for >> other people.

[00:29:56]>> Yeah. For other people and then go and fighting lots of global wars. So, I mean, the Spanish army, there's a strong connection there going back prior to the wild flight of the wild geese. Um, I mean, >> they were meant to [ __ ] sort us out.

[00:30:08]>> Exact. And they never did.

[00:30:09]>> And they never did.

[00:30:10]>> Damn you, Renini. We could have been could have been living the Iberian lifestyle if it weren't for those >> uh the the big lump arrives in France or the the hump of them uh arise and you end up with this strange anomaly where you have the original exchange of soldiers that took place with Mount Casual's lads crossing over in exchange for French soldiers who didn't do a huge amount at the bo but fought more later on. Yeah. um that exchange is folded into the French army proper and then the wild geese that come over with James and set up shop uh outside Paris and Sanjgera they aren't in the French army officially they're sort of their own force so Sarsfield etc is cooperating with the French but technically there's a there's a unusual hierarchy present there and eventually they they are gradually folded in to the original 6,000 Irish brigade and also other areas in France service, but we end up every there there's Irish officers in Russia, Austria, Sweden, um definitely Italy. Uh we get around.

[00:31:14]It's it's it's fairly impressive.

[00:31:15]>> We all went to save the Pope in the mid 1800s.

[00:31:18]>> Y I don't know is it still there, but um the Collins barracks, they had a great uh what would you say? Yeah, they you're just talking about like Irish soldiers fighting abroad.

[00:31:28]>> Yeah, >> they had a great section in the museum for a long time. I think it might be still there.

[00:31:32]>> I think so. Yeah, we we get around. We saved a Polish princess at one point from kidnapping. That was that was a good one. And the Irish lad, the lad who um repelled or I think that the guy who carried Yansies flag at the siege of Vienna was Irish and the fella who led he was one of the captains in the Austrian defenses there and a baker. So the this is a completely different story but the story behind the creation of the crossro allegedly is that there's a claim it >> we can have we have a strong hand in it.

[00:32:06]>> Okay. Uh, so the story is there's a bakery in Vienna and the baker hears tunneling under the walls because his bakery is near the walls and he hears this and notifies the guard captain who is Irish and he brings uh some lads down and they prepare a hot molten surprise for the Turks when they break through the bakery wall and they repel the attack. And the story goes that this bakery is given permission to create the commemorative pastry. Okay.

[00:32:34]>> To acknowledge that the you know the defeat of the Ottomans and the saving of Christrysendom. So they make this cresant shape wrapped up like a turban that is the cross on and then Maria Antuinette brings that to France. That's the story.

[00:32:49]>> That is why would you commemorate the occasion with a very Arabic symbol?

[00:32:56]>> Yeah. Look who we've be defeated.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah. Okay. We're going to eat them.

[00:33:00]>> Yes.

[00:33:00]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:33:01]>> Let them eat crossons. Let them eat croissants. Um, our victory will be the deliciousness of our croissants. Um, okay. That's I I'd say 100% confir.

[00:33:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do love claiming random topics that no one's really going to look into.

[00:33:19]>> Yeah.

[00:33:19]>> Yeah.

[00:33:19]>> But we don't do it when it's for if it's related to the 18th century because that's when we were in the dark times.

[00:33:26]We don't do it if we're fighting for the British and any then you just ignore it >> cuz in the uh in the Alamo there's like is it six or seven guys that were Irish >> and no one claims it because they all have double barrel uh surnames.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah.

[00:33:39]>> And there's probably a lot more lads fighting trying to get into the >> Alamo. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean sure we've got a great relationship with the Mexicans as we well know.

[00:33:46]>> Yes. Oh that's the end of that is soon this week.

[00:33:51]>> Yeah. San Patricios is early May I believe. Um, I know that's outside the limit of this book again, but cuz again, you did pick all the interesting bits are outside of this. Um, but yeah, what that's late 18.

[00:34:05]It's after the famine anyway. Yeah.

[00:34:06]Irish people go over, they join up with the uh American soldiers. Jack Hester has a bit. Yes. Yeah. Which had written the same bit and I don't know if I saw >> Oh, I have as well.

[00:34:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For for a second I was like, [ __ ] did I just see Jack do that?

[00:34:21]But I think it's just it's just a historian nerd joke.

[00:34:25]>> It's a great one.

[00:34:26]>> It's a great It is funny. Yeah. But it is essentially the Yeah. Irish people head over after the famine, but there's also lots of Irish people in the uh American service anyway. They join up with the military. The big war that's happening at the time is the American Mexican War. They march down to the border to look at the enemy. And wouldn't you know, the enemy is very attractive. Also Catholic Mexican Spaniards and they've got great food and great women and great music.

[00:34:50]and all the Irish well enough of them >> change sides >> change sides and start set up the St. Patricio Battalion which is still celebrated >> to this day.

[00:34:59]>> There is a movie about them as well which isn't >> is how accurate is that?

[00:35:04]>> Uh I don't know enough about the conflict comment.

[00:35:06]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:35:07]>> Which is being >> Yeah. That's very diplomatic.

[00:35:09]>> Made for TV movie.

[00:35:11]>> That's always a good sign.

[00:35:12]>> There's two cuz I have it on a list for our film clubs.

[00:35:14]>> Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:15]>> Doesn't bode well for the film club that it's made for TV.

[00:35:19]>> We've some of the best ones we've >> honestly. Yeah. Indiana Jones the TV show. There is a TV show. There's a TV show and it's >> Young Indiana Young Indiana Jones, the Chronicles or the Adventures.

[00:35:31]>> Yeah, but well actually it's old Indiana Jones telling the story to >> Idaho Jones.

[00:35:36]>> Idaho Jones. Well, it completely it's from the '9s I guess. So completely disregards any of the movies that shove but um cuz wait in the movies does he end up in space? Is he I haven't seen the last one. I feel like there's aliens involved.

[00:35:50]>> I think so.

[00:35:51]>> Yeah. And it's Yeah. which people thought was a bridge too far.

[00:35:53]>> Then it goes into Star Wars, >> I think. So, yeah, that's extended universe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:58]>> The young Indiana Jones Chronicles, he comes to Dublin uh just in time for a little thing called the 1916 Rising.

[00:36:06]>> Interesting.

[00:36:06]>> He's hanging around the Week of the Rising. He hangs out he meets John O Casey. I think he it implies that he helps OKC write uh Juno the Peacock, maybe.

[00:36:15]>> I think he he gives him a hand with a draft or something. he becomes friends with. Um, >> do you mind if I join you? I suppose we do.

[00:36:24]>> Sean, don't be such a grouch. You're more than welcome.

[00:36:28]>> Thank you. I'm Indiana Jones.

[00:36:30]>> I'm Maggie Lamas.

[00:36:32]>> Hello, Maggie.

[00:36:33]>> And this is my friend, Nura. You're welcome.

[00:36:36]>> And this is my brother, Sean.

[00:36:38]>> Hi.

[00:36:40]>> Don't pay him any mind, Mr. Indiana.

[00:36:42]>> Indie.

[00:36:43]>> He's in an awful black mood today.

[00:36:45]>> Maggie, shut it. I will not.

[00:36:48]>> He tries to uh ride his sister h but he won't. Uh he doesn't go off with Sha Lamass's sister. And then later on Shawn Lamas fights Indiana Jones because he won't go off with his sister.

[00:37:00]>> Yes. Cuz he's not interested in her romantically fight over that.

[00:37:04]>> Is this brought into his later economic policies?

[00:37:06]>> H yes. I think a lot of it is based off of uh his they become from friends.

[00:37:11]>> Oh, interesting. and he learns that in former allies there might lie future prospects.

[00:37:18]>> I feel like that's >> credits.

[00:37:20]>> Roll credit. Yes. But uh yeah, that's a bizarre little I think there was something like >> he's on the side of but I think he comes around to the idea of the rising. He's like the guys are a-ok. Okay, boys.

[00:37:30]They're swell. But then the next country he goes to is England. Because I look I I haven't seen the episode, but in that series, you'd surely be like, >> well, he should continue the Fenian ways over there, then.

[00:37:42]>> Yeah, he doesn't have a lot of countries he could visit in 1916, I suppose, from Ireland.

[00:37:46]>> No, he he travels around the world, but I think there was some connection with like the people who wrote it where I like the Irish one, I think, is meant to be very heavily >> wrote that was like one of the heads of the abbey >> that was Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's I think the lot a lot of the other ones kind of this one is like quite if not historically accurate historically intense. There's a lot of a lot of the other ones are just like >> he goes to France look at this croissant.

[00:38:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. An Irish man.

[00:38:12]>> You know the origin of that croissant.

[00:38:15]>> Yeah.

[00:38:15]>> Allegedly.

[00:38:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. But um but what other uh what other big conflicts were during this period that we rode in? So kick off with the war of the Spanish secession which starts because Charles II of Spain is catastrophically imbred. Uh his autopsy reads like body horror. It's insane like little black heart and like blood that's like puss and all this stuff. So he's he's a product of Hapsburg inbreeding and uh France wants to put their candidate on the throne uh of Spain because that would stop uh their southern border from being threatened.

[00:38:51]>> Yes. the Austrian Hapsburgs want to put a Hapsburg on the throne because they want to continue the very successful breeding program they've got there. Uh so in they have a fight over it and the British army gets involved on the continent quite considerably through that. Duke of Marlborough plays a big role. A lot of Marlborough's aids are Irish um and fight very well uh under his command. A lot of the soldiers as in the book are Irish as well and a lot of regiments are raised here. Now they're very quickly disbanded but a lot of them are raised. Um >> and also a lot of barracks are built around the country during that time too because they realize this is going to be a long- serving uh thing.

[00:39:29]>> So that's when you get I think it's during that conflict of they might finish what is now Collins barracks or the royal barracks as it was back then.

[00:39:37]>> So that's the first one. Then you have a period of peace. Uh, remarkably, uh, there's a and then the they actually at one stage they give the French permission to recruit Irish soldiers and no one tells the local sheriffs. So all these French recruiters come over and are immediately arrested.

[00:39:52]>> Sure. That seems like enttrapment. Yes.

[00:39:55]Why don't you bring your soldiers over here and round up Irish Catholics?

[00:39:58]>> Well, their their main issue is like you can't recruit these guys because they wear red, too. And that's very confusing.

[00:40:03]>> Okay. So there's a lot of parliamentary discourse back and forth, but eventually they agree to allow the French to come and recruit in the 1730s and they all get arrested and there's a lot more letters exchanged to let them, you know, out cuz that was a bit of a diplomatic phauxa.

[00:40:16]>> Then the war of Jenkins ear starts uh so-called because a British officer called Jenkins had his ear cut off.

[00:40:22]>> Yes.

[00:40:23]>> Obviously. Of course.

[00:40:24]>> Obviously. So that's 1739ish and then the war the Austrian secession starts. There's a lot of secession wars in this. The Austrian succession starts because the Maria Theresa takes the throne of Austria and she is a woman and this is deemed completely unintentionally. I know cuz her father had spent most of the last years of his life trying to get everyone in Europe not to attack Maria Theresa when she comes to the throne. He dies and everyone reneg on their promises immediately.

[00:40:51]>> Uh so >> well a lot of this time is yeah a lot of the same families are intermaring to set up dynasties. You're like, "Oh, France and Spain are now coupled together, but then you add in >> massive inbreeding."

[00:41:02]>> Yeah.

[00:41:02]>> It's extremely difficult to keep these two like they're very different cultures. You put one person in charge of it. Maybe they can hang on to it for a while. When they die, they're extremely inbred >> son/nephew slash whatever usually isn't up to the job and then big war time.

[00:41:17]>> Yeah. Big war. Big war time.

[00:41:18]>> Big war time.

[00:41:18]>> Big war time.

[00:41:19]>> And every Britain's always like, "We don't want to get involved in European politics, but there is an opportunity to [ __ ] things up for a while." So >> we can focus.

[00:41:27]>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We Yeah. They have a constant policy of um >> if in doubt, attack the French.

[00:41:31]>> Attack the French. Yeah. Our attitude towards them is their attitude towards the French. Every time there's something going on, they'll take a pot shot of the French.

[00:41:37]>> Yeah. Um and they the British actually do quite poorly in that conflict. Um their commanding officer is a chap called the Duke of Cumberland who Scottish listeners will probably be familiar with as a man who orchestrated Colon. But he is a terrible commander.

[00:41:50]>> Okay, >> he's useless. So he loses several battles. But it's also the war in which the British king or English king leads an army on the battlefield for the last time. Uh George II wins the battle of Dingan.

[00:42:03]>> Okay.

[00:42:03]>> U by standing there and letting the officers do all the work.

[00:42:06]>> But he's there.

[00:42:07]>> He's there. So that's a big one. So the British kind of muddle their way through that and then you've got a brief period of peace and then the seven years war start which actually lasts for eight years.

[00:42:16]>> Yeah.

[00:42:16]>> Because history >> it's not as catchy.

[00:42:18]>> Yeah. Exactly. And that as I mentioned earlier global conflict huge contribution >> and one could argue that it's not properly resolved that you know the the French are very unhappy with the resolution because they lose chunks of Canada and a lot of their native or India is gone the Irish person responsible for that as it happens the beautiful >> officer who led the Irish brigade at the French victory at Fontana during the war of the Austrian secession is a man called Dali Tolandal. He is then put in command of India and loses it.

[00:42:51]>> Yes.

[00:42:51]>> And he's guillotined.

[00:42:53]>> Yeah.

[00:42:53]>> And scapegoated for that.

[00:42:55]>> India. It's massive.

[00:42:58]>> Bloody hell.

[00:42:59]>> Brilliant. Check your pockets. H. But again, there's a lot of that where like, yeah, we've covered different Irish generals who are, you know, in charge of huge swats of um the early American colonies. India. Not only are Irish people fighting in these conflicts, but certain times they are >> in positions of extreme power. Yeah.

[00:43:17]Yeah. Company is riddled with us, not Scots.

[00:43:20]>> Yeah. But again, we can just wash over all that and say anyone who is in charge of India, it's probably British secretly.

[00:43:28]>> Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[00:43:29]Yeah. 100%. Um, so yeah, then post seven years war, there's still a lot of tension there. Then the Americans kick off in the revolution. Yeah.

[00:43:37]>> Britain gets involved in that. France gets involved in that as Spain. So that turns into a European conflict as well as >> a um American one. The British lose. Uh and oh no and uh then post 1780s you've got the revolutionary war starting and Britain's role in that is chiefly naval.

[00:43:56]They provide a lot of naval support raid the French coastline just randomly attack Naples get a crack of course >> this sort of thing. Uh and then you're into Napoleon. So it's >> as much as it is a period of lots of conflict >> the scale is very different. And that's one of the reasons why I stop in 1793. I could go could have gone later but post 1793 the army grows substantially and to use academic terminology it would the army prior to 1793 would be considered onion regime >> okay >> so quite small um and then afterwards you're getting more not quite conscription but mass recruitment volunteering >> Napoleon changed the game with >> huge game changer >> yeah what if instead of just give everyone a gun >> yeah 442 out the window like you're into a completely radical wing back meta sort of.

[00:44:46]>> He was dominating the league for a while before people were like, "What the [ __ ] We could >> Yeah.

[00:44:50]>> He's got more soldiers than all of us."

[00:44:51]>> Yeah. And he doesn't need to train them.

[00:44:53]Just >> No. Yeah. It just turns out if you give someone a decent enough weapon.

[00:44:56]>> Yeah.

[00:44:57]>> And then, you know, convince them ideas of liberty and fraternity and Yeah.

[00:45:01]create nationalism.

[00:45:03]>> Yeah. Exactly. It's that South African World Cup rugby sort of blitzkrieg effect where you just sub in all your forwards and just go for it, you know.

[00:45:10]Uh I think maybe we talked about this in the last episode, but the cuz Yeah.

[00:45:14]Yeah. He kind of maybe invents mass conscription, >> but back in the 1600s, so before this period, >> Yeah.

[00:45:21]>> there was a kind of um When does that change? There's an idea that >> the military revolution.

[00:45:26]>> Well, you shouldn't have a military. You shouldn't have a standing military outside of wartime because that's what despots do. Yeah.

[00:45:32]>> So there's a kind of weird they keep building up the military. So that's kind of like what this you have to rapidly train a military every time there's a conflict which is all the time. Yeah.

[00:45:40]>> But in between that people are sent home. They're not paid as soldiers.

[00:45:44]You've got stuff like doesn't Cromwell pay all his soldiers to go and map out the country which we should >> geographers there.

[00:45:52]>> We should do an episode about that's just such a funny I think that's what Brian Field's translations is about or is definitely set during that period. It was a very funny idea to be like the men who came and sacked burnt draa and you know Cromwell's army. They come back 10 years later and they're just asking rural farmers and don like what's the name of this field here?

[00:46:10]It's an insane situation. But yeah, so there's no standing armies. But when does that does that change during this period?

[00:46:15]>> Yeah, it that would be right at the beginning of the centuries. So um the academically again there's this term called the military revolution. This idea that as armies get bigger and more expensive and large or I already said bigger um there are political changes that come off the back of that. So the military gains more power and there is fear of this kind of desperate tyranny sort of thing. People like Jonathan Swift wrote extensively about it. He was really anti- army and he really didn't like this idea that 12,000 men will be permanently garrisoned in Ireland.

[00:46:44]Britain as a whole is quite against a standing army until Marlboro starts winning and then they think maybe this is a good thing.

[00:46:49]>> Sure.

[00:46:50]>> Um administratively and militarily it makes sense to have a standing professional force. Yeah. prior to that, royal guards would sort of be the only real exception and then say France might have like their their Swiss guards and then the kind of French elite regiments would have some sort of consistency. Um, but in terms of the oldest regiments, Spain has some.

[00:47:13]>> Um, but Europe as a whole modernizes and changes in the 1680s into the early 18th century >> when we're really getting everything is kind of like >> building up towards World War I and World War II. You can slow well over this couple hundred years, you start to make changes of like what if we have an army all the time.

[00:47:30]>> What if we start pulling in people from all around the world? What if we start fighting in? Why just have one theater of war that start? We could have many at the same time.

[00:47:39]>> All that's missing is industrialization.

[00:47:41]>> Yes. And then that happens.

[00:47:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. As the SC Yeah. You can start industrializing communication breakthroughs where you can suddenly, you know, send messages to multiple different regiments all around the world. Then we're really crooked. Yeah.

[00:47:50]>> And it all bo I think everyone's like, "All right, well that's we've kind of we've maxed out war.

[00:47:58]>> We need we've we've wared. Let's dial it back a shade and >> and then drones.

[00:48:04]>> But it's a funny Yeah. You can see the building blocks towards just all out.

[00:48:08]>> Yeah. And like tactically speaking, armies, you could the thread is really really like consistent. So yes, >> pre as gunpowder becomes more reliable.

[00:48:18]You see, I switched to guns, the bayonet is invented. So suddenly you don't need pikes. So you can everyone can be a pikeman. So you don't need those. So everyone now has guns and they become more accurate. So how you shoot people becomes more important and that sort of drill becomes more important. So that's why standing in a line becomes important >> and then the Prussians realize that if you turn your men into automata they are they're even better at that. So discipline and drill. So there's a really solid thread right up until Napoleon who completely changes the >> Yeah. Yeah. reinvents the game.

[00:48:51]>> Yeah.

[00:48:51]>> Um the >> as shown in the great Ridley Scott >> that's just going to Oh, sorry. I was gonna say Barry Lyndon.

[00:48:58]>> Oh, what a movie.

[00:48:59]>> Very good. Yes.

[00:49:00]>> The Is that in your period? It is.

[00:49:04]>> It is. It's pre- Napoleon.

[00:49:06]>> Yeah. Barry Lyndon's just seven years war. He >> does he come up in this role?

[00:49:10]>> Lots of people like him do.

[00:49:13]>> So that's a no there. But I could see >> that's that's the your equivalent of a clickbay headline, which is Barry Lynonesesque figures, which yeah, for the five people that >> have seen care about Barry Lindon. I mean it's the perfect film in a way for the book because it is an Irish gentleman who joins the British army. It is the book.

[00:49:32]>> It is the actually. Yeah, it is. And it has that same issue of like not issue but like this is a period that we don't there's so many >> Have the IRA threatened you in the writing of this book?

[00:49:43]>> I've been called a West Brit.

[00:49:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:45]>> So, but not by a member of the IRA. That was just a rude comment left online.

[00:49:49]>> Well, you don't know they were the member of the IRA.

[00:49:51]>> That's true.

[00:49:52]>> They're back now. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been getting much negativity on your Cuz with this is just showing like I don't think you're glamorizing Irish participation in these conflict.

[00:50:04]I'm not saying it's a good just that it happened. Exactly.

[00:50:06]>> And it's a thing that we Yeah. Like Barry Lynon is very much focused on an area of uh Irish history that doesn't get cinematized.

[00:50:13]>> No. the our many contributions to the rank and file and then often >> uh higher levels in British military >> endeavors. Yeah.

[00:50:24]>> I mean it the title of the book is the British army.

[00:50:27]>> But technically in this period it is the Irish >> Oh god it's complicated. Is it the British army in Ireland because it's being paid for by the Irish government.

[00:50:36]>> Okay.

[00:50:36]>> And housed by the Irish government and has a lot of Irish in it. So >> yeah, but with the active union hasn't happened yet. So are they British? I mean it's it's >> what what is your diplomatic term for the like the combination of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales >> in this period?

[00:50:53]>> Atlantic archipelago.

[00:50:54]>> The Atlantic archipelago.

[00:50:56]>> I think that's how I refer to it. Okay.

[00:50:57]Yeah. I don't say British Isles. I'm >> British Isles is gone. Atlantic archipelago.

[00:51:01]>> It's great.

[00:51:02]>> That's a mouthful. I don't know.

[00:51:04]>> The East Caribbean.

[00:51:06]Now there's a Now we've got it. The East Caribbean. Okay. All right. Yeah. Cuz it when you get into like, you know, when I'm doing walking tours, I'll just use inter you just use Ireland and the UK a lot of the time, which are terms that don't make sense for big periods of Irish like any the UK doesn't exist at this point.

[00:51:26]>> Well, there's great the United Kingdoms of England and Scotland.

[00:51:29]>> True. Okay. Yeah. So, the UK does exist, but it's the U's the K's that are UD are different. the the the Union flag is missing a bit.

[00:51:37]>> Yeah. But even the terminology just becomes difficult. And this is a whole part of the whole issue of like what is who is Irish and who is British.

[00:51:46]>> It's so >> and the usual way that we decide is whether they did things that in 2026 are align with us Marley. Yeah.

[00:51:54]>> If they do those things Irish. If they're against them British.

[00:51:57]>> And all I can do in the book is I use geographic birthplace. That's all I can do. Yeah. And I say that at the beginning like cuz this is this is my metric. If you're born on the island, I will refer to you as Irish.

[00:52:08]>> Don't you have like um unattributed quotes from them that can't be traced anywhere where they talk about how great they love the old country?

[00:52:16]>> Uh I've got a few cases of people declaring themselves for different kings and being murdered for it.

[00:52:21]>> So there there was a watchman on Cork Street, I think. Uh and he was asked, "Are you for King George or King James?"

[00:52:30]and he said King George and they killed him.

[00:52:33]>> So there were some cases in which identities bubble up or how they've saw themselves or how they might have politically aligned themselves. M but um >> but it's difficult even to get into the mindset of like yeah even if you are well I was going to say Irish like there does the idea of an Irish nationalist exist then >> or if you are you know you want if you want more autonomy of your life and you don't align with Britishness does that just mean you root for King James >> you know what I mean like there's not >> it's not binary >> it's not but it's also not like >> well the the >> the the idea of a king is so rooted in how society that you can't >> envision you're not going to envision the [ __ ] doll in the democratic state or like all that's so far away.

[00:53:21]>> The French Revolution is the quintessential but like >> when that kicks off most of the French who are on board with the revolution want essentially a constitutional monarchy. Yeah.

[00:53:32]>> Like they don't killing the king isn't on the table for quite some time.

[00:53:35]>> It's it's Yeah. It's hard to wrap your head around like how I was going to say revolutionary. It's literally re Yeah.

[00:53:41]But it's that's a crazy concept.

[00:53:43]>> And what happens post I mean they then Napoleon becomes emperor. Yes. And then they get them with a king after the fact.

[00:53:48]>> They still go back and forth between.

[00:53:49]Yeah.

[00:53:50]>> So they >> well he's we're getting rid of the idea of monarchies but me and my heirs will routinely run this country for the next hundred years or so >> and like the United Irishmen are obviously inspired by what goes on in France and there's a huge amount of kind of take there and like oh we could have an assembly similar to their assembly and everything like this. But the the thought that they are fighting for the same things that say people were doing in 1916 and the 1920s you I don't think it's fair to draw that comparison. I think that there is a lot of nuance to it and it's it's nuance that's irritating to explain because it's so complicated and it's not it's not going to make you a lot of friends going well actually.

[00:54:27]>> Um but it's important.

[00:54:28]>> It's easier just to have a movie about the American Revolution where one side is Irish men with patty hats and pipes and pines of harp.

[00:54:36]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:36]>> And the other side is just British men with mustaches.

[00:54:38]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:39]>> And by British I mean from London, >> of course. And they all sound like >> they all sound like or Yorkshire. Those are the two acceptable accents for >> I don't know. Did you ever look into I don't know. We never really did an episode about it properly, but I think there's a there's a uh during the 1916 rising, >> there's an idea of trying to get I believe Prince Hakee the first to come over and be our king. Do you ever come across that? I don't think it's it's shortlived to get shot down. But again, it's even in the mindset of like this huge revolutionary period, you know, where you get like bringing in protocommunist ideas and really shaking things up. At some point, they're still like, well, we need a king.

[00:55:16]>> Yeah.

[00:55:17]>> So, we'll get this guy, but >> and I think that the gray is where the really interesting stuff is.

[00:55:22]>> Like the the black and white is all well and good and that's usually what finds its way into the and I don't mean this derogatorily, but like a leaving certain textbook >> will typically put things in very black and white terms. Yeah.

[00:55:33]>> And for a lot of people that's where history >> if they even do leave Junior is might be where it stops. And I think that's really unfortunate. And one of the great things about podcasts is people can find their way back into the discipline.

[00:55:46]>> Yeah.

[00:55:46]>> Hopefully with nuance.

[00:55:49]>> I mean you can just have people ramble for however long we've been talking now and you know say so much that they almost say nothing.

[00:55:59]>> Exactly. Which is a history >> which is Yeah. There's just so much information there. It's hard to parse.

[00:56:04]And then eventually you boil it down to one simple idea and then you're back to black and white again.

[00:56:07]>> And then you listen to Dan Carlin.

[00:56:09]>> Yes. Is he still doing stuff?

[00:56:11]>> I don't know. He's probably writing some incredible epic theater about the Russian front or something like that.

[00:56:16]That'll take 26 years to come out.

[00:56:19]>> Yeah.

[00:56:19]>> Yeah.

[00:56:20]>> 26 years to listen to it.

[00:56:21]>> Oh yeah.

[00:56:23]>> But you've got you got to get out of here, right?

[00:56:24]>> Uh yeah, ideally. Yeah.

[00:56:26]>> Oh, yeah. Oh, we'll wrap up.

[00:56:28]>> We'll wrap up. Um well, yeah. So, I mean, if yeah, if you're listening to this and you're we've also got a show on Thursday, but um if you'd rather go to Andrew's show, >> email me.

[00:56:40]>> Email him.

[00:56:40]>> Andrew [email protected].

[00:56:42]>> There will be free wine.

[00:56:43]>> There will be free wine.

[00:56:44]>> I think >> there'll be flyers for a discount code of the book and maybe like 12 copies.

[00:56:50]>> Yeah. If you're a real fan, I think the times work out that you could hit both.

[00:56:55]>> Yeah.

[00:56:55]>> Your show and our show.

[00:56:57]>> Yeah. Um, >> that's that's brave.

[00:56:59]>> That's brave. But you know what? You sitting there listening, [ __ ] do it.

[00:57:04]>> I think ours is sold out, but just >> Well, way to rub it in.

[00:57:08]>> If you show up at uh at ours with discount code for Andrew's book, we will let you in. That's a guarantee. Health and safety.

[00:57:16]>> Especially Especially if you have a ticket.

[00:57:18]>> No, you don't even need a ticket. Just have if you have a discount for Andrew's book, you're allowed in for free.

[00:57:23]>> Excellent.

[00:57:23]>> Yeah. But um and where where can people buy it? Are are you are you doing a bit of a book tour?

[00:57:28]>> Uh ish.

[00:57:29]>> Yeah, this is promotion. We should have been doing a whole promotion. What's your favorite chicken fillet roll?

[00:57:33]>> Uh oh, [ __ ] Uh I am a taco sauce man.

[00:57:36]Uh no butter, no no mayo. Don't believe in that. Uh unless >> No butter, no mayo.

[00:57:41]>> The sauce alone is >> I know you're trying to drum up controversy, but come on now.

[00:57:45]>> No, but there's enough moisture in the sauce. We don't need any of that other elements to compromise the integrity of the roll.

[00:57:51]>> The butter. Okay, go on. It's yours.

[00:57:53]It's your on your head. it >> letter lettuce and either sweet corn or peppers depending cuz two toppings is usually within the price remmit where you >> you're allowed to treat yourself and 50 cent for an extra top >> if a chicken filler roll is already over a fiverr I'm not treating myself it's treat enough >> yeah treat enough >> I liked what that man said about how the Irish were secretly British but wait I had to turn it off after he started talking about >> no butter lost all credibility >> brown or white roll >> either depends the mood I'm in. To be honest though, I'm a big fan of the tomato wrap.

[00:58:27]>> Oh yeah.

[00:58:28]>> Same fillings but in a tomato wrap. I feel you get more of a tortilla.

[00:58:32]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:32]>> Okay.

[00:58:32]>> Okay.

[00:58:33]>> I'm starting to realize I'm very hungry now.

[00:58:34]>> Same. Yeah. Is a But back to the the book.

[00:58:38]>> No. I have a list of Irish names. I want to see if I can if you can pronounce.

[00:58:43]>> Do you ever notice that sometimes our place names are pretty funny? Yeah. You know, >> I know. Kill. Hilarious.

[00:58:48]>> That is funny. Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh yeah, you going you're doing a little bit of a press joints and stuff for different societies and things like that. Um >> what's the best way to find out about such things?

[00:59:02]>> Uh oh jeez, that's a good point cuz I mean I'm not going to post about it on my comedy Instagram because I don't really >> Yeah.

[00:59:08]>> Yeah. I mean it's sad to say follow me on LinkedIn, >> but genuinely that's the only place where these sorts of things will get announced. But what I would say is if you if you are interested in this kind of thing, join the societies that talk about it and then seminars happen that you will find interesting because those those historical societies are dirt cheap. The events are usually free or online. So yeah, >> you know, if military history is your thing, join the Irish Military History Society, especially if you're young because you'll lower the average age by about 26 years.

[00:59:41]>> Yes, I'm part of the Well, I'm on the email list for the Clemen Historic Society. They meet in the local pub and again it's nice to feel young sometimes.

[00:59:50]>> There you go.

[00:59:51]>> It's nice. Yeah. Nice. Jail or hospital?

[00:59:54]>> I think it's just the regular commainum historical. I think it's just like >> Oh, the area.

[00:59:57]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:58]>> Oh, fair enough.

[00:59:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. They cover both the jail and the hospital.

[01:00:00]>> Excellent. Yes.

[01:00:01]>> Well, that's what you want.

[01:00:02]>> Yeah.

[01:00:02]>> Yeah.

[01:00:03]>> Uh >> the hospital isn't in the book.

[01:00:04]>> Uh is does the jail feature in the book?

[01:00:06]>> No.

[01:00:07]>> Okay.

[01:00:07]>> The other lots of other jail. New gate jail.

[01:00:09]>> Yeah. But not the famous one.

[01:00:11]>> No. No.

[01:00:12]>> I'm really selling this, aren't I?

[01:00:16]Have you seen Barry Lyndon? No. Well, it's like Barry Lyndon. Um, what? Yeah.

[01:00:21]What's the catchest tagline you could have for the book?

[01:00:26]>> What's the sexiest price?

[01:00:27]>> Worth the price.

[01:00:29]>> What's the sexiest selling point? I think it is. It's a really interesting um >> price.

[01:00:33]>> Yeah. for all the things for all the things we've gone back and forth on it is very uh interesting to shed light on the not so black and white Irish contribution to British military expeditions in the century but >> if you have an open mind >> if you've got a closed mind >> it won't open it >> really no it'll make you very angry which is good >> and if you're hiring >> um well just check it no pictures there's tables unfortunately >> there are I did see A couple of tables in there.

[01:01:04]>> A lot of tables.

[01:01:05]>> But uh >> there's a there's a picture on the front of the book which is the casting.

[01:01:10]>> There's also there's a woman who looks like a plastic slide from a children's uh playground on the left hand side. And ever since that has been pointed out to me, I can't unsee it.

[01:01:19]>> So there you go.

[01:01:20]>> Yeah.

[01:01:20]>> Um yeah. Why the That's the courtyard of Dublin Castle.

[01:01:24]>> Yeah. Uh because all the paintings I wanted were locked behind prices that I couldn't afford.

[01:01:29]>> Okay. Fair.

[01:01:30]>> Uh I mean Yeah. I'm sure it is. Yeah.

[01:01:33]>> Significance to garrisons.

[01:01:35]>> Uh they were there.

[01:01:37]>> They were there. That's I think. And it's a nice picture.

[01:01:40]>> It's a very nice picture.

[01:01:40]>> It does the job.

[01:01:41]>> Yeah, it does the job.

[01:01:42]>> Um yeah. Anything else you want to finish up on?

[01:01:45]>> Uh no, thank you for having me. That was great fun.

[01:01:46]>> Thanks for coming again. That was very informative.

[01:01:50]>> All right. Uh look after.

[01:01:54]>> This show is part of the Head Stuff Podcast Network, a hub for the creative and the curious. Shows are produced in association with Headstuff and the Podcast Studios Dublin. Find out more or become a member at headstuffodcasts.com.