حديث مع مايك بنس عن الأحداث الجسيمة في السادس من يناير عام 2021 - The David Rubenstein Show

追加: 2026-05-17

[00:00:00][music] This is uh my kitchen table and also my filing system.

[00:00:13]Over much of the past three decades, I've been an investor. The highest calling of mankind I've often thought was private equity. And then I started interviewing.

[00:00:22]>> Well, I watch your interview post. I know how to do some interviews.

[00:00:24]>> I've learned in doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top.

[00:00:28]>> I asked him how much he wanted. [music] He said 250. I said fine. I didn't negotiate with him and I did no due diligence.

[00:00:34]>> I have something I'd like to sell. And how they stay there. You don't feel inadequate now because being only the [music] second wealthiest man in the world. Is that right?

[00:00:43]>> Every American remembers where they were on January 6th, 2021. [music] But no American probably was more at the center of attention on that day than Mike Pence. I had a chance recently to sit down with him to talk about the epic events of January 6, 2021, [music] his career as a lifelong political figure, and his current activities.

[00:01:06]You've been a governor of Indiana for 10 years, a member of Congress from Indiana, and vice president of United States for four years. So, are you thinking about possibly running again, or you've had enough elective offices?

[00:01:19][laughter] You know, I'm I I like to say I never say never, but uh I can tell you, David, my focus right now is really on trying to be a voice for the conservative values that have really animated uh my career over the last 40 years. And the foundation I created after uh we left Washington DC called Advancing American Freedom is really committed to those those uh Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, George Bush uh principles that really also guided the Trump Pence administration of a strong defense, limited government, fiscal responsibility, traditional values. And so whatever the future holds for me, I I'm going to I'm going to continue to seek to be a champion for those principles that I think have always made this country strong and prosperous and free.

[00:02:10]>> So the organization is called Advancing American Freedom. And where is it based?

[00:02:14]>> It's based right here in Washington DC.

[00:02:16]I live in Indiana. U so I'm I'm a I'm a commuter to Washington. Uh but uh got a terrific and a growing team of principled conservative men and women who uh are putting out the kind of work that other organizations in the past uh provided in this city when I was in Congress and as a governor and in our administration. But there are less of those voices today. Uh and so we've we've emerged, I think, as one of the leading voices for traditional conservative thought. and I'm I'm very humbled by that, but also see a great responsibility to it.

[00:02:52]>> Now, one of the conservative organizations that's been very popular among conservatives in Washington for many years is the Heritage Foundation, and recently a number of people have left the Heritage Foundation and joining your organization. Was that a surprise to you?

[00:03:04]>> We were very moved uh that they were inspired by our example and our consistent commitment to principle to come our way, but uh but in another sense, I wasn't that surprised. I have I have seen a shift in the conservative movement really since President Trump's um return to active politics and ultimately his successful campaign. Uh where some are walking away from the Republican party's uh commitment to America being leader of the free world.

[00:03:37]Some are are walking away to our commitment to to limited government and even marginalizing the right to life.

[00:03:43]And the folks that came our way were I saw really as an endorsement of them wanting to be a part of a team that is continuing to stand on that broad mainstream conservative agenda that's defined the Republican party for the better part of 70 years. Today as we talk two issues have arisen where I would say the Republican support is not as strong as it has been before. One of them deals with Greenland. Why do you think so many Republicans on Capitol Hill say don't get involved with trying militarily to take over Greenland? Well, David, I think you just put a fine point on it, which is what I hear objections to is the notion that we would ever use military force against a NATO ally.

[00:04:22]Denmark is a NATO ally. Um, and Greenland is a part of their um um you know, of their title and control, if you will, as a territory. I think there's a great case uh for acquiring Greenland and I fully support the president's uh ultimate objective. I think there's a national security case for it. The Arctic is becoming enormously important.

[00:04:48]The ability to expand there uh would be very important to the United States and our security interests in the region. I expect there's also significant economic uh interest in terms of mineral development. I know what a student of history you are, but it was uh Abraham Lincoln's Secretary of State who was the first one to recommend that we purchase Greenland. And so it it's an idea 150 years in the making.

[00:05:15]>> Let's talk about another issue that seems to have uh divided Republicans a bit and that's Venezuela. uh with the effort to take Maduro out, uh there are many people on Capitol Hill, including some Republicans, who think that a war powers resolution making clear what the president's real ability to do and not do with military troops should be clarified. Do you have any view on Venezuela? Well, when I was serving alongside President Trump, u he tasked me to take the lead from time to time in South America and the president uh and I were able to marshall some 60 nations around the world to recognize uh him as the legitimate president of Venezuela.

[00:05:55]It was one of the disappointments uh of our first term that Maduro survived the Trump Pence administration.

[00:06:03]And so I I I commend President Trump uh for taking military action uh to bring Maduro to justice here in the United States. our armed forces responded brilliantly uh and uh I think now we have an opportunity uh to move Venezuela forward uh toward free and fair elections and uh a restoration of the kind of market principles that made Venezuela once the second most prosperous nation uh in our hemisphere. I fully support the president's action if it was to go far beyond that. If there was a a direct military confrontation, I think u uh the an authorization for the use of force vote in Congress would be appropriate.

[00:06:49]But I think at this point the president has operated fully within uh his responsibility and authority.

[00:06:55]>> Another issue that has I think united some Republicans maybe in opposition to some of what President Trump wants to do and I'd just be curious if you can comment on it is the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. President Trump hasn't been that happy with him and now there appears to be maybe a criminal investigation of him for cost overruns supposedly in the federal Federal Reserve building as it's being reconstructed. Uh are you surprised that Republicans on Capitol Hill have said they aren't going to confirm anybody until this issue to replace JPAL until this issue is satisfactory resolved? I don't think that the American people want uh uh some pristine independence and untouchable Federal Reserve by the elected president or the elected representatives of the American people.

[00:07:39]I was disappointed uh to see the headlines about subpoenas having uh been issued. Uh uh it's if if there needs to be an uh a a review of that construction project, it seems like that could should happen uh in in an orderly way. I'm not terribly surprised to see leading Republicans in the Senate um u you know express their concern about that. Let's hold the Fed accountable. The president can express his opinion. I think that new leadership at the Federal Reserve uh would be good for our economy and good for the country, but um was disappointed to see that development.

[00:08:19]>> Let's talk about uh what you will probably be remembered for for the rest of your life. As you know, the events of January the 6th on uh 2021 will probably be the date that you will always be remembered for because you agreed to uh have a vote count and you approve the votes that came in from the states in effect saying that you had not been reelected as vice president and President Trump had not been reelected as president and you obviously had a disagreement with President Trump over that. Was that the hardest day of your life because you had to disagree with the president and also because people were trying to take your life?

[00:09:00]>> David, January 6 was a tragic day. Um, but I'll always believe by God's grace that I did my duty that day to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States. Um, but it was a difficult day.

[00:09:19]Uh, I don't know if it was the hardest day I've ever faced. Um, the day my dad left this earth was an awfully hard day.

[00:09:28]Um, and that was not to be compared to those moments, but uh um it was difficult. President Trump and I had a a good working relationship for four years.

[00:09:41]I'd like to say he was not just my president, he was my friend. It was a fluid relationship. the president uh gave me extraordinary opportunities to champion our agenda on Capitol Hill, around the country, represent America around the world. So, the fact that uh that we reached an impass uh on on my duty on January 6 was difficult, but I I I thought my duty was clear. In your book, So Help Me God, you talk about the fact that after a few days, after the election was over and you had the count and President Trump wasn't happy, but he wasn't going to be able to stay in office. Um, you met with him and he didn't yell or scream or he just had a very friendly conversation. Can you recount what that was like? I think it's because the president and I have gone our separate ways uh in in the last several years. I think it comes as a surprise to people to remember that um we actually parted very amicably on January 20th uh 2021, but it it it unfolded in those days immediately after January 6. Now, I I'll be honest with you, David. You um you asked if I what my emotions were at the capital on January 6. I can tell you I wasn't afraid, but I was angry. Uh I was angry at what I saw. I was angry seeing people um you know, desecrating um the seat of our government. I remember thinking, you know, not this, not here, not in America. While it was a day of tragedy because of the Capitol Hill police who were the heroes that day, the violence was quelled and leaders in both political parties reconvened the very same day uh and completed our work for the peaceful transfer of power. I remember in one of our last uh conversations um he still seemed very dejected and very down and I I um uh I looked at him and I told him and I said, "Well, you know, I'm I'm praying for you."

[00:11:56]And when I when I got up to leave the meeting a little bit later, uh I said, "You know, I guess there's probably two things that we're always going to disagree on." Um, and he looked up faintly from where he was seated at the dining room table and said, "What's that?" And I said, "Well, I get the impression we're never going to agree on my duty on January 6."

[00:12:17]And I said, "And I'm never going to stop praying for you."

[00:12:22]And he looked up with a faint smile and said, "That's right, Mike. don't ever change [music] >> thing of your career. You were born in Indiana.

[00:12:37]>> I was.

[00:12:37]>> What did your father and mother do?

[00:12:39]>> Yeah. My dad was a a businessman. He ended up running a gasoline station business about uh several hundred stations across southern Indiana.

[00:12:50]Self-made man, lived the American dream.

[00:12:52]My mom was a second generation Irish American. My dad a combat veteran and u uh I tell people I I feel like I grew up on the foottool of the American dream.

[00:13:02]>> And uh you were growing up, you went to college where >> a little college on the Ohio River in Indiana called Hanover College and then Indiana University uh for law school.

[00:13:13]But I always had an interest from the time I was a little boy in politics and in public service. I was deeply inspired by the life and the example of uh President John F. Kennedy and uh the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and they still inspire me to this day.

[00:13:31]>> Well, after law school, you practice law.

[00:13:33]>> Did little but then you obviously got a radio talk show and you became well known for that among other things and you were involved in a policy institute in Indiana. And then in 1988, I think you ran for Congress. And did you win overwhelmingly? [laughter] >> I did not. We came close. And then uh not so much two years later.

[00:13:58]>> All right. So after 88, you lost. And you said, "Well, what's the best thing to do? I'll run again in 1990." And you lost again.

[00:14:05]>> I did. I did.

[00:14:06]>> So I assume at the end of that election, you said, "I've had enough of politics."

[00:14:10]>> Well, or politics had had enough of me.

[00:14:13]I I just had a feeling that uh uh that that dream was gone, the dream of being the congressman from my hometown.

[00:14:21]>> So after a gap of uh 10 years from being elected trying to be an elected official, you run in 19 in your 2000.

[00:14:28]You won.

[00:14:29]>> I did.

[00:14:30]>> So when you got to Congress, was it as good as you thought it was going to be?

[00:14:34]And was it worth that long effort to get there?

[00:14:37]>> It was a great privilege for me and a dream come true. I I never imagined I could be governor of the state I grew up in or serve as vice president, but Congress was the dream of my youth and uh uh I'll always consider it to have been, you know, God's grace in my life first that I didn't win when I first ran because I don't think I was ready. But at age 40, after spending a lot of years thinking about what I believed, learning a little bit better how to uh engage people and communicate, I I felt like I was able to arrive in Washington um with a clear idea of the vision that I wanted to advance and the the values and principles I wanted to to carry there from Indiana.

[00:15:19]>> So after 10 years in Congress, uh you decided to run for governor of the state of Indiana.

[00:15:25]>> I did. Um, so let's go to how you became vice president. When did you actually realize you were actually a serious candidate and what was it like when you met him? And you had not been an early supporter of his. Is that right?

[00:15:36]>> Uh, I had not. In fact, uh, the president often uh would enjoy reminding friends that I had endorsed someone else uh, in the Republican primary.

[00:15:47]>> Who who did you endorse?

[00:15:48]>> Well, you know, as someone in the conservative movement, I I felt very drawn to Ted Cruz's candidacy. I said why I was supporting Ted Cruz, but I I also commended Donald Trump because it was clear to me that he was making a connection with all kinds of people across the country who had had aspirations for restoring our economy and standing for values and standing tall again. And um but but it was late June when a business associate of his in Indiana who's a longtime friend of mine and his called me on the phone. I was walking into the governor's residence in Indiana and said, um, a friend of mine would like to know if you would like to be considered uh for uh the vice presidential nomination and I was taken aback.

[00:16:44]>> So when you got elected vice president, did you enjoy the vice presidency up until the very end? I never lost a sense of awe every [snorts] day that my motorcade drove me up to the White House or when I climbed on the helicopters to fly to Andrews Air Force Base to go somewhere around the country around the world. There was always a um I mean small town guy from southern Indiana.

[00:17:09]Grandfather got on a boat, stepped off onto Ellis Island, dad ran gas stations, and there I was on uh January 20th um 2017 with my left hand on Ronald Reagan's Bible and my right hand in the air and took the oath of office to serve as vice president. I I I never got over it. It was a great sense of privilege.

[00:17:33]As we said earlier, it didn't end the way I wanted it to, but uh I'll I'll I'll always be grateful for the the privilege and opportunity that u that President Trump and the American people gave me to serve. What the president decides is the decision. There could be no daylight um between [music] the president and the vice president. And u I think it's the reason why we accomplished so [music] much in those four years.

[00:17:58]in those four years before the January 6th vote.

[00:18:01]>> There are two things both of them bear upon our national security. Number one is the president um tasked me with giving the first major speech changing um uh US posture toward China. The speech I gave in 2018, the president and I literally worked through it together.

[00:18:21]Um and it it essentially it I think it started the process that the Trump Pence administration achieved which was to change the national consensus on China.

[00:18:32]It was to say after years of hoping that economic exchange would result in greater liberalization in China. Uh we essentially put a marker down and said um after years of trade abuses, intellectual property theft, um military provocations, human rights abuses, uh that that u those days were over. We were going to impose tariffs. We're going to demand that China comes forward. And I'm I'm proud that that posture has been maintained even through the Biden administration, but now been redoubled with President Trump's new term. Now, >> President Trump, I think it's fair to say even President Trump would probably say this as a bit impulsive at times, and he likes to make decisions pretty quickly by the traditional standards of Washington DC. You strike me as a more deliberative type person. How did you moderate or modulate what President Trump did or did you not try to do that?

[00:19:27]Uh, >> I did not try and do that. I have a great sense that um the role of the vice president is to help the president be successful in the presidency that he was elected to advance. One of the reasons I think we had a very good relationship is that I I read something during the transition in 20 early 2017 that Walter Montdale had written. He said in this essay he said um um everyone that comes into the Oval Office is looking for something. they're looking for a decision and to influence a decision. He said it can't be like that with the vice president. He said the vice president owes the president his opinion once and in private because I would add to that apart from uh a moral or constitutional principle.

[00:20:18]What the president decides is the decision. And sometimes he'd slip and he he'd say, "What do you think? What do you think?" Then he'd say, "Mike, where are you on this?" And I'd say, "Let let me talk to you later about that." And he'd go, "Oh, right, right, right."

[00:20:32]Right.

[00:20:32]>> Cuz he knew what I knew, and that was there could be no daylight um between the president and the vice president. And u I think it's the reason why we accomplished so much in those four years.

[00:20:44]>> I didn't ask you about your wife. Was it love at first sight when you saw her on your part and her part or how did you meet her?

[00:20:51]>> Well, it was on my part.

[00:20:54]>> She was less impressed. It took it took a little time. Um, no, I saw her. She was playing a guitar up in the front of a church. I followed her out the back of the church um one Sunday morning and then u uh I walked her out the front of the church about 18 months later. It's been 40 years together and uh she is uh the love of my life. She's an incredible public servant uh in her own right and a great teacher, great mom, great grandmother. you were born uh and raised as a Catholic and then at some point you decided to become what's known as a born-again Christian uh and a Protestant. So, was that difficult to tell your mother and father that you were changing your religion? And what was their reaction?

[00:21:40]Well, first I cherish my Catholic upbringing. Um eight years of Catholic school, it's really still a foundation in my life. I tell people I didn't I didn't leave the church. I left religion. I By the time I got to high school, I'd had some social success. And I just decided, David, that religion was a crutch. Some people needed it. I wasn't going to judge them for it, but I didn't need it. But when I got off to college, I started to meet some some young men that simply talked to me about being a Christian. And they talked about having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

[00:22:16]And it set me on a journey my freshman year to really begin to study the Bible and to examine what the scriptures said.

[00:22:23]And it was in the spring of uh 1978 sitting on a hillside at a Christian music festival that it was like I heard the words for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever might believe in him might not perish but have everlasting life. I just remember my heart was broken with gratitude for what I believe was done for me on the cross and I walked down and I I committed my life uh to Jesus Christ and uh it was the um changed my life forever and um when you talk about that faithful day in January 5 years ago David for me the essence of that and it's the reason it's the title of my book is that when I took that oath of office uh I believe that I was making and a promise to the American people, but also it ended with a prayer. So help me God.