Mohrbacher correctly argues that true artistic depth comes from conceptual rigor rather than chasing superficial aesthetics. By prioritizing intent over "coolness," he transforms digital illustration from mere decoration into a disciplined act of visual communication.
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ILLUSTRIOUS ILLUSTRATION ft. Peter MohrbacherAdded:
and welcome everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh today we are we have a very special guest for this moon colony illustration stream. Uh we are joined by the incredible Peter Morbicker. Welcome.
>> Hey, good to be here. Thanks for having me.
>> Welcome. Welcome. Yeah. So, going to be a pretty kind of just, you know, casual painting session. I see we've already got a little bit of sketching going on pre pre-stream.
>> So, yeah. Why don't you take us away?
Tell us a little bit about what we're doing today.
>> Uh, so today, uh, I'm working on this monster design for my RPG.
>> Awesome. I um I'm an indie for people who don't know me that well. I'm an indie uh artist. These days I think that actually means something. Back in the day they didn't have a name for what I was. I was just unemployed.
Um but you know these days I think people know indies like you know you're self-employed make content for yourself.
You like sell merch. You make content.
You know it's sort of like artist as content creator is a little bit better known as a job. I've been doing it for I think 12 years.
>> Oh wow.
>> I've been at this for I've been independent for a really long time. I I do a project called Angelarium. And during that time I just I got like a ton of requests over and over again tell people telling me that they used my designs as part of their D and D games.
>> And I kept meaning to make something for it. And uh so uh you know the last uh year or so I have been working on uh building out a bunch of um doing a world building project to sort of expand Angelarium into um like an RPG world and I'm getting stats written and I'm writing up like a whole world guide and I'm building a beastiary >> and uh as that continues to expand I just my job gets more and more demanding as I keep need to keep making art and writing.
>> And uh this is the first monster design I've been doing for the beastiary side of things.
>> So I written up a bunch of briefs. Um, I was working I'm working with a writer collaborator who had pitched me a bunch of ideas and then I I wrote a bunch of briefs of um different monsters that were themed to different concepts >> and they're not explicitly called out like what those concepts are, but I I always use that as part of my creative process to help me figure out like what the creative intent >> of the uh of the work is so I can like judge whether or not I'm doing a good job at it. And so I have this idea of this specific emotion that I want to evoke with this monster design. And I have a little bit of a written brief already written up. And then um before we did the stream today, I had just worked this sketch up here in my ancient version of Photoshop.
Um just working on >> quick working on really quick sketch over on the Cintiq because I have a way easier time drawing on the screen. Um, and then doing a little quick blockout.
>> Heck yeah.
>> And the idea of this is it's not going to be a full illustration. It's going to be a spot illustration for the book. So, uh, it's a vignette, which means that it's going to have like, you know, it's going to be slotted onto a page with a an empty background. It's going to be cut out with an odd shape. The text is going to wrap around.
>> That's how they typically do these things.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so try it out.
>> Yes, exactly. So, if you've seen a RPG guide, you know exactly what I mean. I'm hoping it's going to make this really easy. So far, I've been having a blast with it. It's been going smoothly.
Trying out a few little ideas on like I had this vision in my head for what this weird cone shaped uh head was going to be. And uh I'm I keep experimenting with different variations on it, seeing if I can get like a it to feel like it feels like in my imagination, >> but I'm never quite sure if that's a real feeling or if that is just a just a vibe that happens.
>> Yeah.
>> So, um I've got now that I've got a rough like value blockout for this guy.
I've also been pulling in um I can bring this over my big uh pile of reference I pulled from Pinterest. Some of this is from prior um instances where I would need to like paint crows.
>> So I've got some crow reference. This is a a harpy owl.
>> Oh wow. Oh eagle.
>> A harpy eagle.
>> Is it an owl or an eagle? I think it looks more like an eagle than an owl.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um it's funny. They look in suits. Yeah.
>> Yeah. They they've got a lot of aura. Uh so I really thought, you know, I was looking for a bird that felt really big because this guy's supposed to feel big.
>> So I'm trying to figure out like how big are the feathers on a big bird?
>> You know, are there anything particular about the proportions that make them feel big at a distance? Um and so I'm trying to answer a lot of those questions as I'm early on in the sketch.
And then I found this guy. I don't know what kind of bird this is, but there's this interesting thing where it's got this sort of low slung wing >> where the upper part of the wing is like especially long.
>> So, instead of the um upper part of the wing like kind of being up at the shoulder here, >> uh even with the shoulder, it kind of wraps low and it gives this almost like more humanlike arm look like a person in a costume. Yeah, >> we have this shoulder that's defined and the wing can sling a little lower. And I thought that's actually kind of a cool feeling like um >> instead of bringing the wing right up to like the side of the head here, being able to I might even exaggerate this more. Swinging it lower like this, I think is a cool thing for the silhouette. So, I'm trying to pick together different aspects of these references to uh create this because I'm not really an expert when it comes to drawing or painting birds. Don't even do a lot of monster designs, but I'm still using the same. You can see here what I mean about the way these these wings sling like way lower. It's got an interesting construction to it.
>> Um, you know, these are the same like creative techniques I use when I'm painting anything. Mhm.
>> I'm I'm trying to answer questions early on related to the construction, like the broad strokes of whatever I'm building.
I'm trying to build from themes and uh you know, I'm trying to like make a lot of these fiddly choices as early as possible before I get into anything that involves a ton of rendering or lighting.
>> And um you know, that's a it's a pretty universal process. So, I'm hoping that it we're going to end up with a really good result at the end. This thing's going to feel pretty uh intimidating, monstrous, and uh big and cool looking, and it's going to make teenage boys stare at it and go, "Oh, that's badass." Sort of the the ultimate uh goal here for this.
>> Yeah. Knowing the demographics always good.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I mean, I'm basically just speaking for myself.
>> Um Oh, somebody says it's an osprey.
Okay, great. I have heard of ospre. I didn't know that osprey's had the coolest wings of all the bird predators. They've also got big chunky claws for like the size of their bodies.
>> I'm noticing that a lot of these really threatening birds, they've got >> big feet on them. Big chunkier feet.
>> So, my instinct is to draw much slimmer looking feet.
>> Um, but I ended up chunking them up after checking out the reference.
>> Yeah. I mean, you look at like a casawary with their kind of talons in proportion to their body. It's like these gigantic, you know, 5 inch long raptor claws. So, yeah, a lot of cool references out there.
>> Let me pull up Pinterest and look at Casquery. So, um, anybody who's got any questions, if you guys know who I am and you have any questions about my art process or anything, you know, feel free to ask.
I'm available in the chat here for you.
>> Awesome. Yeah, feel free to ask away.
Um, yeah, they're such fascinating birds. I I love love love good casawa.
They're basically like dinosaurs if you think about it, you know, like uh you can definitely see the evolutionary process. Uh >> oh, this kind of organic structure here on the crest is exactly the sort of thing I love to paint. M >> um yeah and it's like they look gigantic, but like what there's got to be something specific about the the broad strokes, the proportions that make them feel as big as they do.
>> Some of it I think is like context clues.
You know, you can sort of get the size of the environment, the ey line. You know, the photographers probably doesn't look like they're crawling on the ground here. The ey line's up pretty high.
It's one of the things that makes it, I think, kind of tough to tell how big one bird is from another. When you look at like >> them when they're up in a branch, you don't get this sense of like how high the camera is supposed to be.
>> Oftentimes, it's being shot from underneath >> and it it messes with the overall sense of scale a little bit.
>> So, that's one of the big challenges coming into this is that these guys are supposed to be big and I'm not going to have like a little guy standing next to them.
>> Yeah. man for reference.
>> Yeah. Um it's a classic trick. Works every time. But where is my Speaking of tricks? There we go.
>> Uh yeah, I imagine them being I think pretty big.
>> Raccoon says, "Fun fact, the crest of a casuary is layers of skin or keratin.
It's like the same kind of materials like nails and and horns and all that."
Makes sense.
>> I would have guessed keratin. Yeah.
>> Mhm. Um, so I'm imagining them be what?
These things are big enough to eat a person whole is sort of what I'm going for.
>> Uh, naturally, >> of course.
>> Um, one of the ideas that I had was like the the easy way to like put them on a perch is to create like a rocky outcrop.
M >> and I can do a little bit of scale from like the size of any plant matter that's on these rocks.
But the high effort version of this is that I create a humanoid statue >> that's perched on top of like a you know decrepit statue >> and that statue is presumed to be at human size or larger >> and if it's if it's like a a big looking statue >> then um and this gu is like perched on top of it and dominating it could it would definitely look really big.
>> Yeah.
>> But that requires me to then design a statue guy in addition to designing the monster.
>> And I've got a bunch of these things I need to do. So I I I'm trying to also be a manager to myself and not let the scope of this project get completely out of hand.
>> Yeah. Don't want to Star Citizen yourself into never finishing, right?
>> Oh, I mean it's very easy to do. Very easy. Um Oh, I'm on the wrong layer.
This is a hard light layer. We got a few questions already. Uh >> yeah, please hit me with >> Yeah. So for this bird creature, uh this is from Falcon in which is very appropriate. Um do you think about how they hunt or where where they live in their way of life?
>> No. Um the what I'm creating here is not a bird, it's a monster. This thing is uh this thing is not biological. It's existential.
>> Interesting. You know, so it's it's like there is a certain like um school of thought that like in order to create really great monster designs uh any kind of cryptozoolology, you need to be able to think about it as like a as an organism >> and like where do they breed, where do they hunt, where do they go to sleep, like how did they hunt in packs, do they like uh are they solo predators? And these things can inform a lot of choices. Presuming you're trying to create cryptozoolology, but like there's a whole breed of monsters. And I think when we're doing in a D&D like setting, >> sure, >> if the monsters are magical in nature and they are intended to evoke certain existential ideas or fantasies, >> then being too concerned with the logistics of them moves them away from their intended goal. Like no one's gonna ask what the breeding habits of a gelatinous cube are, right? Like um there's a lot of there's some some D and D content has like monsters that are or you know monstrous races that are like very fleshed out in terms of their culture and their identity.
>> Um while other ones they are clearly just like they're there because they they represent a portion of the human experience.
um through mythology.
>> Okay.
>> And so what I'm creating largely is something that is much more mythological than practical or at least that's what I'm going for. And so that's why he's got like a kind of geometrically shaped head.
>> And one of the options I was exploring was giving him like a crest but making it like perfectly geometric as well. And bring this idea of when there are these sort of angelically created monsters >> that they have this unnatural quality to them that makes them a little bit a little man-made looking.
>> Yeah. So, there's a certain like man-made element to to these because they're they're they're supposed to emerge from like the human subconscious and not from like a a you know, a natural origin.
>> And so, um having them seem a little bit artificial in ways is like a key part of what I'm trying to achieve with each one of them. So, this is an option. I'm going to keep this on a separate layer.
>> Cool. Uh, I guess it kind of feeds into a question of like, is birds for skill harder when the subject is a bird, which it's not actually a bird. So, there you go.
>> Yeah, >> I could put a bird I could put some, if this were an illustration, I could put in some little birds >> for scale, but >> as a vignette, as a spot illustration, you know, maybe not.
>> Um, I also I've got a a square uh canvas here.
>> Square is a weird proportion to be painting at. Yeah, >> I originally had it horizontal and then I ran out of vertical room and then I swapped it and I ran out of horizontal room.
>> I realized that for a spot illustration, it needs to kind of be able to meander around a square space.
>> So, um I'm not really worried about a lot of the same concerns I have with composition.
>> Really more interested in creating um a sense of personality through the silhouette >> and uh and making sure that it hits the right creative goals. It's It's not going to really um It's It could I could chop this out and put a background behind it, but I don't that's not its destiny, I don't think.
>> Awesome. Um we got a question from a resident animator Bobby D.
>> Uh for Peter, you mentioned scope creep.
Even when you're your own client working on personal projects, what tips would you give to your past self to become a better client to yourself when you work on personal projects?
Oh my god. Better client to yourself.
>> Bit existential now. All right.
>> Um I better client to yourself. I'm a terrible client to myself. I um my best work has come in a always come at a moment when I'm not expecting it.
>> Like every time I try to strategize too much about how to do any of this, I feel like I'm running a real serious risk.
Like I I'm more likely to create my worst work when I'm intellectualizing it.
>> Yeah. And so trying to put on the manager hat like I I when I'm I try to set myself up like man create manage the environment that I'm in and then when I'm in it I try to just do whatever seems right at the moment >> and not second guess myself too much because the more I attempt to second guess intellectualize it the like worse the product is going to be almost universally.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I felt that too. Like I think some of the best work is when you're kind of free to experiment and not like kind of bound by that perfectionism of you know I need to I need to make it a certain way and if it's not this way then I can't do it. Uh >> yeah exactly. Yeah. Having a pre too strong of a preconception I think really u messes with the potential of the work.
>> So the answer is don't be a picky client.
>> Um yeah. Yeah. I mean, you I think yeah, you you um if you're thinking of yourself as the manager, yeah, you should be less picky. And then if as the as the contractor that you should be a nightmare to yourself, you know, you should be like, "No, no, no. I really felt like it should be like this."
>> ignoring the brief, ignoring like what the intended stated goal of the project is. I think that by allowing yourself to be a kind of nightmare um client or vendor or whatever, >> you know, you end up more likely to put yourself in a position of success.
>> Interesting. You got to kind of discoium yourself into having all these different voices in your head.
>> I gota I I own that on I've own that on Steam for years. I have to play it one of these days. It's my like embarrassment.
>> Oh my goodness. You gotta play it, man.
>> I know. It's >> It's so good. Um >> um on a technical side, I so I did this in black and white. I always start in black and white and then I I've got a gradient map up here just to give it a little bit of uh temperature separation.
>> It's one of my favorite gradients.
>> Um it's part of my custom like arrangement of gradients that's for free to download on my Gumroad if anybody wants to like draft off of this. Heck >> yeah.
>> Um I can flip through these really quick to get like different rough color palettes.
But my favorite one is this one. Uh just because it adds a little bit of temperature separation without getting in the way too much.
>> So I put this on soft light and I get a little bit of like warm versus cool. For something that's monochrome, it starts to feel a little bit more like it's in color even without adding any local color. So I like that.
>> I am going to add a little local color to separate like tone on the rock from the bird.
Thank you.
Uh, we got a question from Robert Schneider Art. Uh, do all questions have to be painting relating towards Peter?
Uh, that's >> you can ask me about my business. You can ask me about my video game backlog.
Whatever you Whatever you want to know, I'm here for you.
>> Well, what's it like working like running your own business as a freelance illustrator or like an independent?
>> What is it like?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Tell us everything. Uh, I don't know why I chose this life. It's a It's a completely weird job.
>> Um, sometimes it's really stressful. Like I have like real breakdown stress moments.
>> And other times I imagine I couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
>> I I um, you know, I eat all my successes and I eat all my failures.
>> When I when I make a really dumb choice, I can be out a lot of money. And when I like and I can spend like months or even like years working on a project in bad faith that I ultimately feel like I never should have done in the first place, you know.
>> Um, but sometimes I'm making exactly the work that I want and I'm getting paid more than any client would ever pay me for. It's like the best of all worlds.
So, it's sometimes terrible and sometimes it's the best. Um, but it's I do it because it's what suits me. I I feel like I have a series of preferences and soft skills that have kind of run me down this path. Mhm.
>> Um, and so I I it's become more aspirational in recent years to to be in indie uh because there's a lot of uh content creators who are like showing off their income and you know getting to have creative freedom and uh we see shrinking uh industry as far as like film and games, lots of layoffs and stuff.
Um, but I I used to when I was first into getting into it, I used to recommend it to everybody. I used to yell at them like that they have to like start selling their own stuff and really take ownership over their work. And I realized that I mean that's that's just annoying and dumb and you know I was I was wrong to like try to force this on people.
>> And these days I'm a little bit the opposite way where I tell people like don't do this. like it's >> it's a it's a ridiculous job. It's it's almost guaranteed to fail.
>> Um there's it's >> really it requires doing a lot of things that most artists do not want to do.
>> Um the business side of things, it very much runs it counter to the artist's instincts.
>> And so I think that most people for most people it's a terrible job. Um but it it's just it just happens to be right for me. And I got really lucky that I kind of fell down this path when I did.
>> That's interesting. Yeah, I think um you know, you kind of have to find out what works for you and you know being able to have ownership over your successes and failures. You know, it's almost like you're playing Dark Souls versus like rating and wow. You know, it's like there's that you're you're kind of you are responsible. You're in the driver's seat for everything that happens and you know, you get what you put in, right? So >> yeah, >> I mean I love Dark Souls, so I want to compare everything to Dark Souls.
>> Hey, me too.
You know, so I do feel that like it does feel a little bit like the Dark Souls of like, you know, sometimes a skeleton just pops out from behind a corner, >> hits you in the face, >> ruins you while you're on like a run back to your back to your souls like and you have no choice but to just sigh deeply and continue to play >> because otherwise like you know you're going to go hollow.
>> Yeah. Don't go hollow.
>> Don't go hollow. Don't give up, skeleton.
>> So, >> got another one from Rob Schneider. Uh, I saw that you became the spokesperson for Shiel, the German board game convention. How did how did this happen?
And what is your job as their spokesperson?
>> Um, what is my job as their spokesperson? God, I wish I knew that.
Um, I do not fully know what I'm in for.
>> Cool. Um, so the story of this, >> um, >> I went to Dokam last year. I'm going to be back at Dokami again this year. It was my first international convention and, uh, I had a blast. Like, it was a great show business-wise, but I also just like it was it was amazing spending some time in Europe. It was great. Like the size and scope of the convention was incredible. I was overwhelmed by it.
>> And uh you know I met a printing comp a guy who owns a printing company there who was one of these guys who used my work for his D and D campaign for years. So he had this tremendous connection to my work. I didn't no idea.
And um his printing company does all the promotion for uh spiel like and they do all the printing for Shil like all their promotional material gets printed by his printing company. And so I was like hey you know I'd love to go. He's like are you going to be going to any more of these? I was like well I really need to go to Shil one of these years. You know it's the biggest board gaming event in the world.
And so he goes oh well wait wait wait here. I'll I'll um I'll be right back.
He goes and he grabs the owner of spiel and brings her over to my table.
>> Oh my goodness. Like manager >> and was like um and she's like um you know we have this ambassador program and I was like oh do you want me to like do some illustration of like your ambassador for next year? She's like no like we want you to be on the billboards for the for the show.
>> Oh wow.
>> And I'm like why?
Why? Like I don't even like really show my face on the internet very much these days. I'm not known for like what I look like. So the idea that I'm like it's not my art. It's me. My face is like the subject of this idea.
>> Oh yeah. Wow.
>> It's not something that I'm very comfortable with and it's not something I aspired to do, but it's such a weird idea. I felt like I had to say yes to it >> because it was an opportunity to work with this show that's like an incredible event and it was um you know it it was like such a weird idea like I I feel like a fool for saying no to it. So now I'm gonna have my face on a bunch of billboards all around Germany.
>> Yeah. I I can see like the the splash shirt you got like a little crow kind of coming off your shoulder and uh >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like um they were asking me like uh okay, so we should have you at an easel >> with paints. And I was like, I don't actually use an easel with paints. And they're like, what do you do? I'm like, well, I sit in a bunk uh I sit in a concrete bunker with a computer and like a little tablet.
Um they're we'll figure something out.
In the end, it was like the thing we figured out was that I was going to do up a bunch of different versions of myself with like painted additions on top of it.
>> Um because you know being a digital artist there isn't a lot of autonom >> Yeah.
>> You know, >> you got like the cat and that's it.
>> Yeah. You got this thing and it's like >> it's a pretty it's like a Yeah. So, and there's not like a lot of cultural garb or anything, you know, they had like >> authors and uh uh and uh cosplayers and stuff and they had them dressed up in these big fancy costumes. It's like, I don't have any costumes. They're like, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. So, then it's turned into I I did a bunch I did several costumed versions of myself as well as multiple different familiars. And I think they're just going to go with the crow that took me 20 minutes to paint off a reference and a quick photo study of myself um to together. I don't know if they're going to use the other stuff for other promotional material.
>> Um it was such a weird project painting myself >> and like clothing myself in costume.
>> Oh, did you paint this? I thought this was like a photo.
>> I painted.
>> Oh, >> yeah. I know the photo is me in like a black t-shirt because I just own 10 black t-shirts.
>> Same. Hey, me too.
>> Yeah, it's the official artist uniform.
I was like, if you if they're like I'm like, if there's a costume for artists, it's a black t-shirt.
>> Hell yeah.
>> Um and they're like, okay, great. Great.
Well, we'll have you in your black t-shirt. And then I I was like I I don't don't know what how it's going to work.
So, I've been I was very anxious about wanting to provide a lot of options and do a lot of costume work to try to make >> this all make sense.
>> Um, and I it doesn't it still doesn't make sense to me. I I don't know how to be a spokesperson. I am going to go there with the most enthusiasm >> and friendly cander I can I I've ever produced for anything. I want to do right by this whole situation. I do not understand it.
>> Um uh and like I'm gonna get to see him uh when I'm over there in Dokami later this month uh to come back and I'm I'm going to be um seeing him again and probably have some questions. We got to work out some logistics and stuff.
>> Awesome.
>> Yeah, that's that's the whole spiel thing. Um >> that's the spiel.
>> I that's the spiel for spiel.
I'm really thinking about doing a video on it. I've been getting into doing a little bit more YouTube >> to explain like the kind of weirdness of this because it is one of the weirdest situations I've ever found myself in.
>> Um especially after like spending several years not showing like not facecaming at all like >> to basically have spiel. I thought it'd be funny to I had this idea where I was gonna expressly never show my face for like a couple years and then have the have a face reveal video which doesn't would be a joke because I mean I've already spent a lot of time on the internet on camera but do a face reveal video where it's me standing in front of a billboard of myself.
>> Um >> that's a big flex. You know, a lot of aura farming doing that.
>> It'd be funny. I thought it would be really funny. I was going to do my my vision was that I was going to do the face reveal that Dream did with the paper plate. Pull the paper plate aside.
So, but I then when you realize that like I pull the paper plate aside and it's just behind me in the shot the whole time was a photo of me >> like do it in front of the billboard and just realize it's like the same guy on the billboard.
>> That's really funny. Um, I thought that was a funny idea, but then it was like I got roped into doing a review video for XP Pen >> and uh I decided to just face cam it anyway, so I'm like whatever.
>> I'm not going to hassle myself to like make the whole process of >> face revealing harder. It the the spiel thing is already difficult enough. I don't need to um make it any weirder than it needs to be.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's way too long of a story that has nothing to do with art.
>> I know the feeling. I I had a whole face reveal thing with Moon Colony because I I just see the crow avatar, right? It's my thing for everything and the black t-shirts. Um Raccoon has a great observation that digital artists as a uniform have the one slightly fingerless glove. That's true. You have this. You know >> that is true. I should have worn the glove. I think I've got a few kicking around here somewhere.
>> I don't re I usually don't wear one. I because I I don't usually use my Cintiq very much.
>> Oh, I see.
>> I I'm I'm on uh I'm rocking the Intoos lifestyle. I've been >> cool.
>> Into us first for just about everything.
And uh it's built up such a it's been seasoned with a layer of hand oil. So, uh it's most comfortable for me to just >> all slippery now. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh we got a question.
>> Probably not >> from Guart. Question for Peter. How do you come up with ideas for your characters, especially with Angelarium?
>> Um, yeah. I So, I I touched on this a little bit at the beginning of the stream. The um the thing I I feel like I have to do every time is start with like a concept.
>> It has to rep the the illustration or design, they have to represent some idea.
So, it's like if it's the angel of rain, it's going to I'm going to think about my associations with rain, >> which sounds obvious, but I find this actually is kind of insightful for some people. Um, you know, you think like, I need to make it cool. I need to make it badass. I need like people think about the impression they want the work to make as a starting point, >> but I found that that's typically counterproductive.
What I prefer to do instead is think about like what like what the theme of the work is and then that informs me on like you know what kind of symbols and other like and and moods I'm trying to incorporate into this work. So if I'm thinking about the angel of rain, I'm going to be thinking about memories and associations I have with rain. and I'll just write them down just like one or two word little things and just put them in a list and uh brainstorm my way through my associations.
I don't know why I'm working under the gradient that makes it easier up here.
Um and then I I use that as like a map for determining whether or not like the stuff I draw matches with my intent.
like I want to I want to always be pulling back towards is this representative of the intent of the work. If this is supposed to represent the rain, does it feel like the rain to me when I look at it?
>> And if the answer is no, then I can make changes. And if the answer is yes, then I know I'm on the right track. If I'm trying to guide myself off of whether or not I think the work is cool or badass or whatever, I'm never going to be satisfied with it and I'm never going to be able to make distinct choices.
>> The the goal of setting these themes early on is is to not only spark ideas, but to allow myself um a method of evaluating my choices as I like do random stuff. I'm like choosing whether I'm choosing colors or um you know doodling on something or trying out an idea. I I don't to be able to judge whether or not it's working out. I need to be able to like have a criteria to judge it against.
And I find that when people are trying to only judge it on whether or not they feel like it's cool or it's finished or some sort of arbitrary broad definition, um they find themselves never able to settle on anything and getting stuck a lot.
I find that like starting from these themes when it works it like it works really easily.
The part of the reason I got into the whole angelarium thing was because I discovered that I just had a really really easy time like thinking about like okay what's the angel of dust going to be and then just doodling something being like oh that's cool >> and I discovered that there was this shortcut to being able to make cool drawings where all I needed to do was like pick what the drawing was going to be about before I started drawing it >> instead of being like okay draw the most badass thing ever and like try to like project this feeling of what I want the thing to feel like at the at the screen. It it just it felt like this incredible shortcut to be able to just, you know, make the work about something instead. And >> over time I I you know I've really felt like um this is this is how all great you know mythology is built also is that it's supposed to be representative of an experience >> not necessarily just supposed to be some weird thing.
Um I think metaphorical work is is powerful and I think it it connects with people. So, it's a it's a process that I like I hold very dear and I I try to make sure that everything I'm doing, whether it's like writing or world building or whatever, still draws from the same creative process because it's been the well of all of my successes up until now.
>> Awesome. Yeah. I'm looking at the uh the angel of rain that you kind of uh designed like there's like a poem on the on the website of um like kind of what it represents and like the evocative feelings. That's really neat.
>> Yeah, I found that like uh yeah, when I was first starting off, I was also doing like a little piece of poetry for every single new character I did. And I'm not a I'm not good at writing poetry at all, but it was uh you know, I think it helped illustrate the idea that there was some intention behind everything that was going onto the page.
>> I mean, it's a pretty good poem. Like, oh lonely fountain, blesses mortals that dwell beneath you. Let her gratefulness debate your sadness. Let her prayers reach you, lonely metro. That's pretty cool. I like it.
I had somebody who owned like a rain barrel company license that from me once. What? Can we license your poem?
Like that's that's the first and only time it's happened. And I was like, sure, whatever you want to pay. Like >> a rain barrel.
>> I will license you the use of this poem for so the sale of rain barrels. I think I got 50 bucks or something.
>> Man's out here doing side quests. My goodness.
Uh, got a question from Iudoodle.
Question for Peter. As someone with a Cintiq and an Inos, what draws you more to using the screenless into us more?
>> Um, so there's a couple of reasons. Um, I I think the ergonomics are a big part of it. I feel like >> uh if I'm tucking in to a long painting session, I'm >> I'm trying to get in the zone. I want to I want to zone out and just focus on my rendering. Mhm.
>> And uh there's a lot of like maintaining of posture that goes into using Cintiq for lung sessions.
>> Yeah. But with um with the Inos, it's like really easy to just like put on a second put on a a movie on a second monitor or like open up a chat on Discord or whatever >> and just sort of like zone it and just you know you just moving your fingers and like my left my left hand is on the keyboard and my right hands on on the tablet and I just >> I have a smaller tablet so I don't even have to make very big motions. So, I'm able to just sort of get comfortable and just zone in. And it's it feels great.
Um, and then I also feel like getting my hand out of the way helps give me more context for the screen.
>> Like I don't have a problem figuring out where my cursor is >> because I I usually have a pretty big cursor because I use size flow brushes.
>> Uh, and so I can see where it's dancing around. I feel like I have an easier time seeing where I'm moving around the canvas with this little cursor than like with my whole ass hand, you know, blocking everything >> in the way.
>> Um, so I and then I I just also some it's just muscle memory. I mean, I I got I learned to paint um on a Inos years before I ever got a Cintiq >> and so I just have way more years of experience with it. But I recommend it for everybody, for painting specifically to just try out working on a just a pen tablet, no screen.
>> Anybody who's just getting into art, who's like in their first couple years, I just tell them, don't worry about screen tablets. You're not missing out on much. I think they're really good for concepting. If you have a all digital workflow like I'm demonstrating here where this was drawn digitally and now it's being painted digitally, it is easier to draw on a screen, especially a large one. Um because there's something about like the move the hand movements that are like when they're magnified on the little on little pen tablet like I'm painting on >> it. It is more difficult to draw. I have friends that have like an e like the micro like 4x6 inch tablets that do all their drawing on that. Oh, wow. It's possible to get great at that if that's what you do. Um, but I find it easier to just draw on paper and then scan it and paint over it.
And uh, if I'm going to keep it all digital, I I bought the Cintiq so I'd have an option to be able to quickly draw stuff. If I was doing concept art or like trying to do a spot illustration, I rarely use it. Um, you know, when I was reviewing this like XP Pen uh tablet, I was like kind of savaging it because I just don't have like room in my life for like a big tablet.
Certainly not two of them.
>> Yeah.
>> This this getting this thing in here on the big robot arm and trying to latch down to the desk. It's a whole operation.
>> I don't want to like take this thing off because I don't trust myself to like mount it and dismount it safely.
>> Such a beast.
>> Yeah. I I know a few people struggle like maintaining the space needed for like a giant tablet, you know, in addition to what they have. Um, and yeah, it's a good point that like a lot of beginners will be like, I need my $2,000 Cintiq with a screen is gigantic.
It's like, well, I mean, you know, I start on a Wacom bamboo, you know, like a tiny old tablet. Um, and honestly, yeah, it's more ergonomic. I find it a lot easier to like sustain that kind of uh, you know, the rhythm. Um, we have >> I also find that like um the tablets these days have gotten better like the Hueon Inspero you can get one that's the same size work area as I have with the with better pressure sensitivity um for 50 bucks.
>> Wow.
>> When I was first shopping for tablets back in like you know when we were hunting dinosaur eggs >> Yeah. it it like it was even in like 2002 money it was like 300600 bucks for like a just a pen tablet like if you want to get a nice big one >> uh they were pricey to get into like when I was learning to paint I was learning to paint on some it was some Korean off-brand I think called Apek it doesn't exist anymore >> okay interesting >> uh AIP not AP >> and apech had a battery in the pen so I got this habit I got this tick where when am I I'd make a mark it didn't work right like shake it there's no batteries in these things anymore but uh I bought that one because it was a hundred bucks and that was the cheapest I'd ever seen a nice big tablet before and so I learned to paint on that thing and then when I graduated from college I got I treated myself and I got a nice >> Inos >> um but nowadays I mean kids these days you know kids these days they get to learn on an Insperoy for 50 bucks you has something that I swear is just as good as the one that I bought 15 years ago.
>> I I don't think I've changed the nib on it even.
>> Wow.
>> Because they they have it's got a really slick surface. So, like I've got the container full of the nibs.
>> Um I don't think I've ever changed one out.
>> Uh the I think I hear that the the newer tablets they chew them up a little bit more.
>> So, you actually need to change the nibs. But >> yeah, >> to be able to like get everything you need to do professional quality digital painting for 50 bucks, this I think it makes digital painting the cheapest hobby ever.
>> True.
>> I think it's the only affordable hobby left in this economy.
>> I recommend it to everybody. If people are even a little bit interested in art, I'm like, go buy a tablet. It doesn't matter if you only use it once. It'll cost you the same amount as like taking your girl out for dinner.
>> Yeah, it's so accessible. It's awesome.
Um, and speaking of accessibility, this actually isn't related, but uh, Q for Peter. Do you have any tips for monetizing your work? And how do you balance making original work that helps build your audience with client work that pays the bills?
>> Oh, I don't pay the bills with client work.
>> I um I do freelance every once in a while, like I did like a splash screen for WoW back when they were doing the Shadowlands. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, and you know, every once in a while I'll take a gig. Like I did one last year, but it was like it was like weird circumstances where I they were it was a merchandise company that I wanted to get them to I wanted to be able to sell the merchandise myself, too. So, I was like doing a commission for them, getting paid for it, but I was also going to get a bunch I was buying a bunch of inventory from them.
Um because I make all my money off of uh web sales.
>> Yeah.
>> I make my money off of selling stuff on my web store and I have that's been my primary income like for a decade.
>> Wow.
>> Um there's also Patreon money which is incredible. Anybody who backs has ever backed me on Patreon is a hero. It's like been my foundational income.
And then I also have done conventions on and off for, you know, 20 years.
And that has has been really great, too.
I took a break from them over the last few years. Now I'm kind of back into it back into them again.
>> Um, you can make a full-time like the content creators who talk about this stuff like they're they're telling the truth. You really can make a full-time living off of making your own work. and then selling it at shows and selling it online.
Uh, not everybody who's trying to do it does it. I know a number of people that's like this is their only job.
>> Paint exactly what they want every day and then sell it directly to their audience. And, you know, many of them are homeowners. They've over the years been smart with their business, smart with their personal finances, and they like they're in the middle class in the same way that many of the top most employed freelancers are.
>> Wow.
>> Um, so it is a real career path that it's just I I don't know how much room there is. I mean, I think there's like an infinite amount of room, honestly. I think like but there's there's digital art is like such a niche um a niche hobby >> that I don't know um how big of a market there is for being able to sell it as like I think you have to do really well with your marketing >> to be able to get to the point where it's a full-time income.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. like the thing you mentioned before that artists tend to not have the super like crazy business acumen of you know marketing and you know >> kind of the opposite actually.
>> Yeah.
>> That a lot of the things that make artists good at what they do also make them bad at business. M >> like instincts that are good, healthy, positive instincts that like define a lot of artists also make it undercut their ability to make a living.
>> Interesting.
>> Um, >> how so?
>> And so I don't want to frame it as a failure. It it really is, I think, a a kind of personality quirk that cuts two ways.
And so I when I see most people kind of working against their business interest as an artist, I see it as being like them being a good artist.
Um it is you kind of have to be two people to be a a business owner and an artist at the same time, I think.
>> Yeah. What do you find to be like the biggest kind of pitfalls people fall into like as artists who are good at art but not maybe good at business?
>> Good at art maybe. Well, they the one of the main things that makes a business work is is just marketing. Like you have to be able to draw attention to your work.
And I think that if you are making artwork for the purpose of it get garnering attention, you're uh acting in bad faith and you're likely to have people recognize that bad faith and ignore you.
People hate seeing something that's done cynically. They don't want to see cynicism in art.
>> They don't want somebody to just make a fan art because they think that thing is popular. Mhm.
>> So it it it if you try to act in a way that you think is good for business, you are likely going to be >> make putting off potential fans.
>> Um you have to create selfishly.
>> You have to make exactly what you want the way you want to make it to make the best work. And that like it runs counter to marketing. It's it's also good for marketing, but it requires you to like ignore it during the time while you're making it, >> you know? You kind of have to like um turn around and walk backwards into it.
>> Yeah. It makes me think of like how people who get cult followings usually the way they do it is they put something into the world that is what they've always wanted to see and they get kind of like that niche audience of people who you know have always wanted to see the same thing like the same interest same kind of tastes >> and I think that's why people can find success in those niches is because you know if you're not trying to appeal to like the mass media you know like the kind of generic uh like common denominator of art, which is, you know, think like >> Yeah. Mr. Beast of Art.
>> Yeah. You know, it's like if you're trying to just do what you like and you put that out there, you find other people who kind of want the same thing and it's not fake. It's not like this commercialized commoditized uh, you know, operation.
>> But so like that's the best thing for the art is to create without concern for the needs of an audience, but to do so selfishly, intuitively to create something that is genuine, authentic.
>> And then marketing is 100% inauthentic.
>> It requires you to take a look at the numbers, see what's working and what isn't. Figure out how to do more of the stuff that's working and less of the stuff that's not working.
>> You have to like bother people. You have to produce. You have to make choices like asking people to sign up for your mailing list, >> which will annoy some people when they get that popup. You get that popup on a website that says sign up for our mailing list.
>> Nobody's like, "Thank God.
>> I've been waiting this my whole life."
Yeah.
>> Yeah. I really wanted to I was really hoping I would go to this website and like, oh, I almost clicked away before they asked me to sign up for something.
Um, but like then you look at the numbers and you go, "Okay, well that means that we got more mailing list signups, which means more revenue per release." Like is literally putting dollars in your pocket by doing something that is going to annoy some percentage of your audience.
>> And you do so cynically. you say, "Hey, I'm going to do something that I think is um is going to have like an overall positive effect, but it's going to have, you know, negative drawbacks. I'm going to weigh those those aspects against each other in a kind of cruel, logical way."
>> And that is what the business owner brain has to constantly do is assess whether or not something is going to work mathematically.
Um, and so if you get really into the sort of building an abstract system of like, hey, what's going to work mathematically to convert impressions into sales, >> you know, it can be a fun game to play to like run a business.
Um, but it is a very very different game than like I'm trying to create authentic art because of my love of creativity, my love of the subject matter, like the process of making art. They are they're two opposing forces.
>> And I've met all kinds of people that balance them. It's not just like one kind of one kind of person, one kind of artist. It it transcends genre. It transcends like personal background, identity.
>> I've met all kinds that do it. Just some people like to play both games and can figure out a way to kind of marry them together. But that's what I mean when I say like most this is just not a good fit for most people. It's like >> most artists should just make good art and like that should be their whole job.
>> Um that's the idea.
>> And sometimes I fantasize about that because that it sounds pretty good, right?
wouldn't mind that job.
>> Yeah. Aud says, "OMG, bothering people is the absolute hardest and worst part of it for me." Darrex says, "I agree. I don't even like sending at everyone's in Discord." I I know that feeling, >> right? Yes, it hurts. Every time you you do like an announcement post on a Discord >> or even just posting on social media, I like it really does. I think it hurts everybody a little bit when you know like the part of it is the anxiety of like I'm going to post this thing and it's going to bomb.
>> Yeah.
>> And then this thing you put your heart into is going to like bomb in front of everybody feels bad.
>> But even if it you knew it was a success, it you still do feel like you're bugging people >> by like forcing your way into their timeline. I don't think anyone feels totally comfortable with it unless I mean I I I personally don't feel totally comfortable with it all the time. It's just like a reality of like my job.
>> Yeah.
>> And you know I also try to look at the positive side like people follow me because they do like to see the stuff in their feed >> and I follow artists and I'd love to see their work in my feed. And so I have to like try to put that head on and imagine that like the people seeing my work is something that they get excited for and they're they're welcoming. Um but yeah, it it I the artist brain does not work that way.
>> Yeah, I I know a lot of people, you know, recommend like reposting your own work like on Twitter, you know, you like you do the retweet of your own stuff and then you post old stuff and it's like, oh my god, what if someone already saw this artwork before? You know, why show it to them twice? That's you can't be doing that. It's like >> Yeah. Especially if it like it bombs like you post it and like only like a 100 people see it.
>> Yeah.
>> You don't you don't go like the first instinct is not oh my god I should repost this.
>> You're like I've already posted it. The reality is only 100 people have seen it.
So like you're not bothering anyone.
>> Yeah.
>> No one's seen it.
>> Um and so like the intuition we have as artists I think runs totally counter to our correct choices. M >> so it really requires like an emot creating an emotional firewall where you you have this you're able to make correct good logical choices about you know building your audience building your business that are opposite of like what you feel like you should be doing sometimes.
>> And that's not to say that like it's all you should always do what you feel is wrong.
>> It's not about right or wrong. It really is just I think we need to be making strate if you're going to be a content creator online, you need to understand the game, the rules of the game you're playing and make strategic choices, >> right? And um I find myself talking to a lot of other aspiring content creators about this and they know what the right choices are often >> and what they need is a frame for permission to be able to do them because they really do feel bothered by bothering people.
>> Yeah.
>> But I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm usually when I'm in these conversations, I'm a fan of that person's work and I'm like trying to express to them how much I wish I could see more of their stuff in my feed instead of whatever Twitter is feeding me.
>> Yeah.
>> It's like >> the world is such a crazy place.
>> Uh it's so much nicer to see like >> art >> great paintings than it is to see most of what ever else is on social media. So I want I'm always trying to encourage artists to just push themselves out there more even if it's uncomfortable because for for no better reason than I want to see it.
>> Yeah. It can be so demoralizing for a lot of people. you know, I've spoken to, you know, many many kind of people who are trying to grow their, you know, social media like in terms of art and like that kind of lack of feedback when you like put yourself, you know, into the void and you drop, you know, your stone the ocean and there's like nothing, you know, it's like, >> yeah, I >> it really wears in people. It's interesting how that kind of never really goes away, you know, like even if you're like at like one of the biggest digital artists in the world, you still kind of get that feeling, you know, just like kind of scaled up like, "Oh, I've only got like a hundred likes." Like usually get like 2,000. Like this is crazy, you know?
>> Oh, yeah. And like and then you also, you know, you're in an environment where people are uh social media is is horrible. Like >> there are people who will like there'll be haters who will be like cataloging that you didn't get as many likes as you did a couple years ago.
>> Yeah.
>> Like it's like the personal Oh my goodness.
>> Oh yeah. So it's not just that you know like oh it's going to feel bad like if this doesn't go well. It's like oh there's people who are going to like make note of it.
It's uh it's a hellscape. Like it the panopticon that we built for ourselves is not good. I I really want to go back to chronological feeds on everything. I want to put all these social media mavens in jail.
Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk. Uh now Larry Page. Hey, good news that he's in charge. Put him up against the wall. Um we got any other questions before I go down to dangerous?
>> Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, social media is just really good for mental health, you know. I think uh I think everyone feels so much better in their lives whenever they're on on the socials.
>> Uh let's see. I think we have a question in the backlog. Uh >> how do you get This is from Chicken Sensation, which is a great name. Uh how do you get in the right mindset to draw?
Do you have certain routines before drawing?
>> God, I don't. This is something I really feel like I've I've struggled with terribly. I really don't.
>> Yeah. Oh, I I definitely don't draw enough as and like a lot of it I think comes down to lifestyle. Like I >> I draw as like a precursor to painting >> and so I don't >> like I'm a you know a middle-aged family man. Like I like my hobbies involve you know watching movies with my kids or watching them play video games or playing video games myself.
Uh, I really, you know, there's a certain amount that needs to get done for my job.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's what gets me in the mood to draw, which sucks. Like, I really want to retire so I can do art as a hobby >> because I would love to like be focused on that question. That's such a that's such a wholesome thought to me is to be focused on drawing like creating the the space and the mindset for drawing instead of like having the need to draw because I don't know it's it's such a great escape when you do it for the right reasons.
>> Yeah.
I know there's like this this feeling a lot of especially freelancers get of like anytime you're relaxing, anytime you're not drawing or not working is time that in your brain you feel like you could be spending drawing and it's like, "Oh my god, I'm I need to I need to be productive right now. What am I doing playing a game, right?"
>> Yeah. I think content creators get that the same thing about a lot of stuff. But I I've fought that off. I mean, I've been a content creator full-time for a long time. Mhm.
>> If I had that feeling all the time, I would be way richer. I would have made way more money because like if I was just like pushing out daily YouTube videos for the last 10 years, >> holy [ __ ] man. I would have >> I was on YouTube back when it was like 480p. I had like tutorial videos from back then. Got hundreds of thousands of views while I like wasn't uploading on a channel.
>> Wow.
>> Like if I had that kind of gussle mindset, I could have like done a lot more. But I instead focused on trying to be efficient with the way that I spent my time.
>> Uh >> oh, we lost him.
>> We lost your webcam.
>> Oh, you >> your webcam.
>> Oh, I'm still on my screen. That's not good.
>> Turn into a beige smear on mine.
>> Oh, fine. Chat, let let us know if there's anything wrong. Anyway, go on.
>> Yeah. And so I I I'm very concerned with like the efficiency of the time that I spend. like is this all adding up to something is a question I'm worried about more often >> than anything else.
>> Like okay, I can make a painting and then I can put it on Patreon and get paid on Patreon >> and then I can release it as a print and sell certain number of copies of a print and then it's going to go in a book and I'm gonna sell a certain amount of copies of that book.
>> Like I want to make the time that I spend not just be a trading time for money the way that you do when you're a freelancer. Mhm.
>> I want to be able to build a assets for myself, intellectual property assets that like um have value over time.
>> Uh and that's been a driving force behind a lot of my decisions with my work is like is this going to build value over time for me or is this going to be like a one-off where I just trade some amount of time for some amount of money a kind of direct exchange.
Um because trying to make a full-time living off of being an art content creator in like a super tight niche like requires the work to work in like a really efficient way.
>> Yeah. I think um and so with that mindset for efficiency, I think I've managed to dodge that like overworking sense that like freelancers get >> or the other explanation is that I'm instinctively very lazy and like it's never occurred to me. I I have pretty bad work life balance but not to the degree that I hear about where people get like >> they don't take days off or they don't like you know, they never get around to opening up their new video game console.
Like, that is not a risk for me. I I I'm very good at taking time off and like nice >> relaxing, spending time with my family.
>> I'm I'm too good at it.
I've been I've been doing all right at this for too long, and now it's like the real question is is like, do I need to get a job just so that somebody's going to yell at me if I don't show up for work?
Um, I've hired employees like in part to try to make sure that there's some other amount of accountability >> beyond my hour, like beyond myself >> because I really I I really could just go for months without getting anything done. So lazy.
>> I mean, you know, I think being good at spending time with their family is a pretty good trait to have like in terms of just being a healthy human being, you know.
>> U >> Yeah, sure. Obviously like the hustle mindset, you know, makes make you a little more money in the end, but uh got >> Yeah.
I I I think that my I I I think you could frame my deep instinctive laziness as a asset >> just because it's like it's driven me to create like a really efficient approach to this whole game.
>> Um I don't know.
>> Yeah. being efficient by uh never doing line work, just doing sketches and painting.
>> Uh yeah, again, yeah, in the in the in the art side of things, I was looking, you know, a lot of my older work that's is some of my most popular.
>> Um it's like the foundation for my books, like looking back at those old paintings. I did several of them in like, you know, a couple of days. And I can see like these days I the longer I've painted, the more I kind of get picky about sewing up all the details and being able to spot my mistakes and really like recognizing where I could do more work.
>> But back in the, you know, back 10 years ago, I was my brain would just completely filter it out. It wanted to stop working so bad. I would just filter out all the stuff that I should have fixed or cleaned up >> and just squinted at it and went like, "Ah, it's good enough."
>> And um I created some of my best work with that mindset. So I can't [ __ ] talk it. I think that >> there's something about not overworking things and just like recognizing what's important and moving on that is like good creatively as well as for like lifestyle.
Yeah, I think a lot of painters can struggle with that. Like the kind of feeling of like you're rendering, you're rendering, you're rendering. Where do I stop? Right? And like kind of there's there's no real actual stopping point, but there's there's a point where like I can work in this for five more hours and it'll be like 2% better, you know? Um, >> yeah, but when you're working on client work that all of a sudden you have a different calculus because you are u you're looking at this thing and you're like >> I have a backlog of things I need to get to and I'm only getting paid, you know, 300 bucks for this. Um, what point do I get to call this done?
>> Instead of like, can I do another 10 hours of rendering on this? Mhm.
>> And uh it forces you into a much more efficient mindset, I think.
>> Um sometimes it results in lazy crap work that gets turned into a client.
But uh I think it's also like that's when I felt like I started to actually get like ease into my like real professional skill set was when I started doing commercial work and uh I had like this dual mandate where one you have to get it done quickly because there's more stuff to do after you're done with this and then the other one is like you can't ever get stuck stuck because my experience leading up to my the starting my career like through college was that I would get stuck I'd say about um 70% of my paintings that I started I wouldn't know how to finish them.
>> Interesting. Yeah.
>> Being stuck like trying to do a personal painting or like do a commission getting to a point where I like couldn't figure out why I was stuck but like didn't matter how much I rendered the piece would never get finished. H >> like I knew that this is a problem I watch a lot of people get into.
>> Yeah. A lot.
>> And I realized like, oh, if I'm going to do a Magic card, I can't get stuck and like have to reboot it after six months of failing to finish it.
>> Like I need to just finish it.
>> Yeah.
>> And I need to finish it by a deadline.
So it needs to be both guaranteed to get done and it needs to like like done be done so quickly. And it changed that like having that suddenly hanging over my head changed the way I worked immediately.
It changed my entire workflow and decision-m process. And then that carried over into my personal work where all of a sudden now I had this like clear path on how to distinctly like move from um an idea to like a finished painting without ever getting like brutally bogged down the way that I used to when I was young.
>> Interesting. So you found that like doing a lot of client work kind of helped you overcome the feeling of like I'm 70% done. I don't know how to finish this. Like being able to have that stopping point. interesting. Okay.
>> It it gave me perspective on what was getting stuck, but it also incentivized me instantly to um change my work method in a way that was like less likely to get stuck.
>> Um the same thing happened when I learned how to do concepting where I went from all my p pieces took multiple weeks to like I I got hired to do a concept push where I was going to be on site for three weeks. And I was like, I got there, I'm like, "Okay, well, I don't know how to do this. How much work do you guys need expect me to do per day? Like, how many how many paintings should I be finishing per day?" And they're like, "Well, most people finish, you know, three or four."
So, it went from like I had maybe two or three weeks to finish a painting to like having to do one or two before lunch.
>> Oh, wow.
Um, and I was immediately like, okay, I need to I can't paint the same way.
Like, I need to use different tools. I need to work differently. Like, it just requires a different workflow. And I didn't watch a class or like consult with anybody. It was simply like the constraints of the project that forced me to think and work differently. And I found that it was actually not that hard to achieve that goal when I set the appropriate boundaries.
>> Interesting.
>> Um I found that it's been true for me over the years is that when I like when I make a big change to the way that I work, like if I want to level up in a huge noticeable way, >> it's it's always at a moment when I'm like required to do so.
Um, I think that a lot of people do need some amount of academic learning to be able to like get better at drawing and painting, >> but I really think that like um understanding like what what constraints you need to be setting for yourself go a really really long way to getting better.
>> Yeah, necessity is the mother of invention indeed. Um, >> yeah.
>> Yeah, really good point. Uh, Eric Boy, hey man, how's it going? Uh, he says, "It's crazy how you can do a thousand thousand hours 100 hours on a personal art for free, but if you're paid, you're going to stop at 50 because you're not going to get paid to go for 100 hours."
>> Yeah. I mean, I've seen people take terrible paying commissions where they own nothing and do 100 hours on it.
Um, and I've also watched people take top tier commissions from giant clients and complete them in 30 minutes.
>> Wow.
>> Speed paint them and throw them away.
Like it's not even a matter of like you got a job. You finally got a job for your dream company. It really is I think a matter of like people's personal goals and the relationship of the work.
>> Everything about art is personal. So, I think when it comes to like a lot of these like larger professional practices, people get a sense that there's like a right and a wrong way to think about it or to do it. But I really think it comes down to personality.
>> Yeah. Speaking of personality, uh Patrick Ziggart says, "May ask, >> have you ever felt demotivated by looking at other art? Some see it as inspiration, but can also definitely be demotivating by the thought of never being able to reach that goal.
Comparison is the theft of joy." Do you maybe have also a positive perspective on that?
>> I mean, I get inspired. I go to a museum, I don't feel uninspired. I feel like I think, oh [ __ ] I this is a door that's been open to me. I've refused to walk through it.
>> I'm like, that's the feeling I get a lot when I see somebody who's better than me at painting.
>> Yeah.
>> Is the sense like I could walk through that door, but I've been a fool to not do so.
Um >> sometimes I think ah I've never walked through that door because >> beyond that door lies some personal madness that I don't really want to engage with like so just maybe just sour grapes like >> yes I could that level of detail and study to do that but I really don't want to >> and I think that there is a real honesty there is like >> sometimes the process of what achieves those results is not what you actually want to spend your time Like people discount how much of art is like process.
>> What are you doing and in what order are you doing those things in matters a lot like that's your that's your experience dayto-day moment to moment and some types of art require a process that people just hate.
>> Yeah.
>> So not getting those results is is really just a reflection of not wanting to actually do that work.
Um, I think that seeing art as like a byproduct of the work process alleviates some of that because you look at somebody who's doing something incredible and you go, damn, I never want that job.
Like, whoa, that's incredible work. I do not want that. Like, you see somebody working at a zoo and you're like, oh my god, they get to spend every day around the lions and tigers and bears. And then you think about what it'd be like to shovel bare [ __ ] all day and you go, I'm glad they're I'm glad somebody's doing it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> interesting.
>> That's sort of the way I see a lot of art that is unlike the kind of stuff I'm likely to make >> is I go I'm glad somebody's doing it because it's it's great that there that this stuff is out there and I am so glad it's not me.
>> Yeah. Egg boy says splash for Riot 300 hours running particles. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I tried to do Riot once. They hired me to do like a a splash art once and I did >> the worst job on it and they just paid me out in full and kicked me to the curb.
>> Oh.
>> Which was the No, no, it was the best possible response. They were very professional about telling me that they weren't going to use it and they paid out my contract without any kind of arguments. Like they were great to work with. Um, and I was just terrible fit for for doing Riot stuff. I don't really like the uh work methods or aesthetics of splash art very much.
>> So, when I see these like in crazy 300 hour splash arts, my reaction is usually this this isn't for me.
I don't I don't have any jealousy at all about it. I I really just think it's like definitely not my thing.
Makes sense. Yeah. Patrick says, "We got to step up and do Ron Gia's process."
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Ron Gia is like one of those artists I I see and that's really on the verge of what I think is like even possible.
>> Um but I I know I don't really want to do work that's rendered like that. I I get other I really enjoy other aspects of it. like some aspects of like the lighting and value control I find to be really inspiring and I want to like bring that in as reference and and take from it. But like subject matter wise and then some of the more nuanced rendering I just I'm just not interested in in working like that.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't I don't have that desire.
>> Yeah.
>> So I don't really it doesn't make me frustrated.
I think most most people could do most things in art given enough time.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I think that the thing that holds them back is that a genuine desire to not do it. They just don't want that job.
>> Yeah. Got to know your own laziness, you know? It's uh >> Yeah.
I mean like if people really wanted to do it, they could do it. That the >> it's not physically demanding most of the time. It's just um yeah, most people don't want to make those kind of brush strokes. They don't want to spend that much time. They don't want to learn those specific techniques.
>> And that's normal. Like it's a super niche thing. That is wrong for most people. And that's and and so we should be glad there's somebody who wants to do that because then it it puts this out in the world.
>> Yeah. Kind of makes me think of like shoulds, right? Like I should go to the gym. I should learn Blender sometime.
Like, well, if you're, you know, it's like, if I if you're saying I should do something, then there's a reason you're not doing it yet, you know. Um, right.
Or I should >> draw like Ronia. Well, he's already doing it and you can draw in your own way, you know? Like you find what niche of art works for you and what method and process is suited to your own kind of not just like abilities, but also like what you're willing to tolerate in terms of doing an art work.
>> It's not even tolerate. Like I I think that the worst parts about art are like desirable to the right people. Like >> the idea of spending 300 hours hunched over a tablet rendering art isn't, you know, people don't do it because they like really want the final JPEG.
>> Like it it's a thing that they want to spend their time doing. They get something out of the experience of it.
And if they don't, they're probably in the wrong career because, >> you know, you're going to be competing against people who get off on the experience of rendering.
>> They didn't just do it because they want to be the best. They did it because they like doing it.
>> Yeah.
>> Everyone supposedly gets into art because they like love making art. And then at some point they like stop asking themselves like what parts about it they're that gives them pleasure. and they start asking about what's effective.
>> And I think that's the point where they start to get stuck.
>> How do you get unstuck from that?
>> You need to learn how to be hedonistic with your art process. You got to make art the way that you like.
>> Got to get back to just loving drawing or loving painting, like the feeling of doing it and not having it be a means to an end. Because if if the work were a means to an end, you should just become an accountant. It's like that's an easy job.
>> Is that kind of a process that you kind of had to go through yourself? Like rediscovering like am I just doing this to make pretty JPEGs or is like do I love this process or?
>> Yeah, all the time. Constantly. I think it's like one of those things that if you learn it academically sometimes it might it might hit you and go well that is it. That's what I've been missing the whole time. That's how I've I've been [ __ ] this up. now I can go back and start making great work again.
>> And at some point a month or two later, you start making choices again because of the wrong reasons. You know, you feel like, oh, I should be doing this, I should be doing that, instead of following your, you know, your desires and um you keep having to relearn that lesson over and over and over again.
>> You never really like ascend past it, I don't think.
Maybe maybe I'm just bad at getting it to stick.
>> Yeah. Chat, do you also walk into this rake repeatedly? Uh of >> Yeah, >> I think I I I have a feeling it's it's relatable. I have a feeling that we all kind of know that there's a time in our life where we just loved drawing and painting and we just did it for the love of it. And then like >> there are times where we found ourselves doing it out of for like the stupidest reasons. And like I I imagine that we probably associate those times we did it for the right reasons with our favorite art that we've made and our best results as far as like money and attention.
>> Um and then the opposite is true. Like the times where you feel like you're really just doing it for all the wrong reasons, it's just like it feels like your whole life is drying up.
>> Yeah. So like you you'd think that with all the incentives pointing the right way it would be an easy lesson to learn and stick with but it's not. It's like it's I think one of the core difficulties I think of this whole business.
>> Yeah.
Is says honestly I am always drowning in shoulds and my worst lumps always came out of working purely out of obligation and not growing or enjoying it.
>> Yeah the obligation >> obligation you know obligation is a word I use a lot when I'm describing this phenomenon. Um, I'm really glad I got brought up. I I feel like you can see, maybe back me up on this.
>> Okay.
>> Do you feel like you can see when there's obligation in somebody's work?
Like you open up their portfolio, you can see the obligation.
>> I think so. Yeah, I've seen some art stations like that.
>> I've seen a lot of art stations where like people ask me, "What do you think of my art?" And I am I'm always going to be like positive and gentle and ask them what they want to hear because the thing that scares the crap out of me is when I see somebody's portfolio and it's all obligation.
>> And I want to like get them I want to eventually get to the idea that I want to tell them I can that everyone can see the obligation.
>> Yeah.
>> And but I don't want to be like everyone can tell that you don't care. That's certainly not the message. But I I I want people to know that like when you do work because you feel obliged.
>> Everyone can tell.
>> And no one's talking about it, but everyone can see it. It's not just you.
It's it's a lot of people. It's most people who are trying to do this professionally. You can always see professional artist, student, amateur, whatever. You can always see the obligation.
>> Yeah.
And it's it's not an attractive feature.
>> You want to see what you want to see.
The opposite of is like just I don't know um obsession just like people just being way into it. They like they love it. They the care the love. I mean that's what people want to see.
Even if the rendering is not that good and the anatomy is kind of like janky like they're not so good at perspective.
If you can show like love and inspiration in your work, people will pay attention to it.
>> I don't know why, but I think of that one Freen fan art of like the like she's looking up at like the sky and like how like everyone loved that because like it felt so like raw and real like this was someone >> who made that art purely out of like joy and and loving, you know, >> loving the process. They didn't they didn't know how to draw it, but they spent way too much time thinking about how to draw it.
>> Yeah.
>> And like you can feel that from like taking one look at it, even though it it's all kind of janky looking.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that's that's that always carries the day. I mean that that's what makes art, I think, like hit for people is to see through the work and see the artist on the other side of it.
>> Um also quick sidebar question. Uh, what is your canvas size? What pixels?
>> Oh, good question. I'm working on a smaller canvas than usual because it's a spot illustration. It's just 36 by 3600.
>> Okay.
>> 12 x 12 in.
>> That should be big enough to go inside an RPG. Um, it's never going to be on a billboard or prints or whatever. Um, I could scale it up if I needed to, but this is a comfortable size.
>> And when you're making your kind of like big angel illustrations, like what kind of size do you use then?
It's usually around 8,500 pixels tall on like a big portrait vertical format. Um I you know I have had this observation recently and I don't know I I need to investigate it more.
>> I people ask me all the time about like brushes and canvas size >> and I'm working on a I think it's a 16-year-old copy of Photoshop. I'm working on >> CS >> CS6. Yeah. which is I mean it's approaching the point where they're going to pull the plug on me and like disable my license because they don't want to support it anymore.
But it's like the last version of Photoshop you could buy before like they started going subscription model.
>> And it's um it runs so smooth compared to like modern Photoshop.
>> And uh I really like the other programs that exist these days, the non Adobe alternatives to Photoshop. I think they're really good.
>> But every one of them kind of chugs when you use big brushes on big canvases.
>> Yeah. CSP. So when I >> Yeah. So when I go and make like a I want to do like big smoke effect or something and I just do something like this in the background.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I have a pretty weak computer so there's a little bit of chugging, >> but it's I can paint thousands and thousands of pixels on a canvas without any kind of like major lag.
>> Fascinating.
>> Um >> that doesn't work on CSP.
Like I've heard that it's a threading issue that like um Photoshop does multi-threading and has like GPU enhancements, but like uh like Critter and CSP don't do it. And so they're CPUbound.
>> Yeah, I see. And so to have a program that is both like not CPU like not as CPU limited but also does like boots up fast and runs smoothly.
>> Require I think it requires you to have like an ancient older program like I think only like antique software will do it these days.
>> Interesting. The good old vintage stuff.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I don't know if that's 100% true, but that like everything I've tried to boot up on my machine here, this is a got a 1080. It's like a I think it's I think it's probably about a six-y old machine.
It runs Photoshop like smoothly, reliably. It's snappy, but not much else runs that smooth on it.
I I think that there's a we we there's basically no options on the marketplace that just work ideally anymore.
>> There's room for someone to really like blow it up, make it good.
>> Yeah.
>> I really um I've been getting frustrated with Windows broadly, so I've been thinking about um I really want one of those Steam boxes.
>> Oh, Steam.
And I really want to try to use some like uh like [ __ ] and Critter on there to see if like in a native Linux environment I start to get some of the same super smooth responsive feeling that I'm getting out of old versions of Photoshop on Windows.
>> Um because it would be awesome if it turned out that like affordable open-source Linux stuff was like the future for all this.
>> That'd be really cool. I'd love to see that. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I will say though, I mean, the 1080, if that's your, you know, that's pretty invincible, so it's gonna serve it for a long time probably.
>> Yeah. I mean, I got it ages ago and it was like good at the time and then since then, you know, I'll buy like a new game or something and it'll run terribly. I'm like, I thought my computer was good.
>> Um, but it's it's not good anymore. It doesn't I don't have anything that does rate tracing.
>> Says no no rate tracing, no AIs, nothing on here. This is just like I I mean not like I need any of that. I I just like being able to run Photoshop.
>> Mhm.
>> And um and like Slay the Spire. So >> Oh yeah.
>> Nice. Uh have you played Slay the Spire 2 by the way?
>> Uh I think I'm round I think I'm rocking up on 200 hours at this point.
>> Oh my goodness.
>> Close to 200 hours. I'm trying to get to Ascension 10 with everybody. I've only got Ascension 10 on Silent. Um, >> nice.
>> I haven't beaten ascension 10 on any of them. I'm currently trying to get regent up from nine to 10 and just I think I've probably spent my last 20 hours failing with regent at ascension 9.
Um, but I mean they keep patching it also. So like they like did a major rebuild on this class like after a certain point where I was in the middle of this huge grind. So, if I like put it down for a year and come back, I'm going to be playing a better balanced game.
>> Yeah, that's like the patient gamer mindset, you know, you wait like two years, be like everything's all fixed.
The DLCs are free.
>> Uh, you know, exactly. It's a good time.
>> Um, yeah, that that's that was my go-to airplane game was STS1. So, I need to get into two sometime when I have time >> on my phone. Slayer 2 is is really good.
I wish there was more unique from Slay Inspire 1.
>> Um, appreciate them bringing back the classic characters, but I >> I like I I think I like Slay Inspire 2 more, but I really wish >> it was there's more unique stuff. It feels like it's coming, but like >> the first early access release is very similar to Slay the Spire one.
>> Yeah. I mean, sometimes like more of a good thing is, you know, I mean, Hollow Night, Silk Song is more Hollow Night, but that's that's still Hollow Night, you know. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also a big Hollow Knight and Silk Song fan. Um, >> I think Silk Song is more different from Hollow Knight than Slay Spire 2 is from Slay Spire.
>> Oh, really? Okay. Um, yeah.
>> Uh, Rob is asking, "How's your experience working with Wizards?" Uh, I really like the art director I was working with, Jeremy Jarvis. I think he's the creative director there now. I don't think he does. They have like back when I worked there, they had one art director and now I think they have 14.
>> Wow.
>> Um, and it was before UB. Uh, you know, so I wasn't doing any kind of licensed stuff, >> you know, it was like a lot of original creativity. I did constant art with them. I did illustration with them. Uh, I really liked working with Jeremy and I really like um that era of magic was kind of my favorite. Maybe just my own bias of me working on it. So, I've got a lot of nostalgia for that era magic. Nice. But, >> uh, you know, I have been public about my criticisms for some of their business practices.
>> Nowadays, Donado Gene Colola seems to be the one carrying the torch on that. He's going >> Yeah.
>> completely apeshit on uh on Facebook and artists and on Wizards. probably can't go too much into that on this on this channel, but >> yeah, but it it's uh so I've been pretty public about like my disagreements about that, but that's between me and like the executives that run Wizards and Hasbro.
Like my experiences working with the creative team have been nothing but stellar over the years. Like >> they've always been better to me than I was to them. And I uh I thought that they were all excellent at their jobs.
you know, it's it's difficult trying to disentangle like the stuff that the executives do from the stuff that the from the the creative staff and like people who really make the the game. Um, and so that's been the difficult part about um both the praise and the criticism of them is because like uh I don't really associate with that identity of being like a magic artist anymore >> um because of like my past disagreements with like the um you know related to you know business practices and contracting and stuff.
Mhm.
>> But then I feel like I'm like in opposition to the people who I thought were great at their jobs and who I loved working with. And I'm proud to, you know, I'm I'm very happy for any any joy I brought to the fans. Like the fans have always been excellent as well. So >> yeah, >> you know, it's it's it's one of those things like part of the reason I think people don't get out there and scream about it more is because it's it's like nearly impossible to like express it in a way where you could be fully understood.
>> Yeah. Like the internet, especially social media.
>> Yeah, >> that's good. Um question from Roxanne. Uh question, what is your work rhythm like throughout the year? So I guess the kind of like maybe cycles of work and productivity and all that.
>> Yeah, I mean it really is more like a monthto month than it is dayto day.
>> Okay. because like I go through these periods where I have a lot to do in terms of my admin work um having to format images and get back to emails and deal with like business administration which is way more than the average freelancer has to deal with um as being a being an indie. Um, and so I will have multiple days in a row that are dominated by these kinds of more um, uh, you know, administrative type tasks and then but I can't go like a whole month without finishing some art. So it's like I my rhythm is very much like week to week because um, my priorities shift over the course of a month and then my priorities also shift over the course of a year.
where I have to be looking ahead to like future months to see like is it the beginning of the month or the end of the month where I'm going to be tight on time because of travel or because of some release or something like that. And so trying to figure out where the art fits in it, where it becomes a priority has a lot to do with like looking forwards and strategizing more so than like scheduling out like a any single day of work which makes makes it all that much more challenging. It's difficult.
>> Yeah, makes sense. like you know obviously going back to the previous conversation about like the business side of things and having to manage all the admin and you know all the social media and all that. Um yeah as little elf was pointing out.
Um yeah we're about pretty far in I think the top of the next hour so about like 20 minutes from now. If anyone has more questions for Peter feel free to ask in the chat. We will try to get to everything as best we can. Um but yeah let's see if actually anything in the backlog that I missed?
Patrick says, "I definitely did art because I thought I need to, not because I wanted to." Yeah, I've seen that mindset quite a lot.
>> That's crazy. Like, yeah, it's like um you know, you get into art because you want to and then like at some point you tell yourself, "Oh, I've got to do this.
I got to do this kind of illustration for my portfolio or for like to impress this client.
>> And it's that obligation that I think people don't recognize um how much others can see it when they do it, it's really hard to cover up. Like even if you know that that's like a concern, it's a it's a real hazard and you like expressly try to like work against it, it's still very hard. I I don't know if it's even possible to like fully paper over that that feeling that other people can recognize that you did it for because you felt like you had to.
>> It's interesting because I feel like people often will try to impress clients they don't want. Like they'll try to adapt to a style that seems popular at the time, >> but it's not what they want to be doing for work, which is kind of right >> antithetical to their goals because you want to impress the clients that you want to work with. you know, that's ultimately, you know, what you can do on your art station. And if you're trying like you're aspiring like I don't want to be a environment artist, but I'm doing all environments because that's what's, you know, selling. It's like, well, then maybe you should do what you like and do what you want to be doing for work.
>> Yeah, it's a difficult question. And there was a time when somebody asked me, well, what do you want to be doing? And I said, book covers. I was talking to like a, you know, a world famous artist at a like a convention or workshop >> and they're like, "What do you want to be doing?" And I said, "Book covers."
Because at the time, book covers seemed like the place where you could do prestige illustration and make enough money at it to like get by.
Because like um I knew I could I think I was already doing Magic cards at the time and it was not paying the bills.
Um, and I like I wanted to be full-time illustration. I was like, "That's the place where you go to upgrade your career is book covers."
And so he tells me, "Well, you need to start drawing faces and you need to start drawing multifigure scenes." Uh, and like giving me all this advice stuff that like is good advice for someone who wants to do book covers, but it ran completely counter to like what was interesting about my portfolio, about my body of work.
And uh so I I spent a bunch of time doing speculative work to try to like get book cover gigs. Uh the book cover gigs never came together, but I did realize that like it was a waste of time. It was just a terrible side quest that like resulted in nothing. Like I I didn't I wasn't paid for the work. it it never really like expanded my brand and it like wasn't the kind of work I wanted to be making.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and so the question, you know, the question I have for myself was like, hey, was I being honest when I said I want to do book covers or no?
>> Because there was a part of me that did want to do book covers because of its potential benefit financially and where I saw >> Yeah. Yeah. for my career.
But it, you know, when you say want, it's like I don't think that saying that you want something gives a clear picture on your goals.
It's more complicated. I don't think we give a lot of credence to that.
>> Certainly, I I've asked plenty of people, you know, what do you want to be doing? And they'll give me all kinds of answers.
Because of my own experience of myself giving these inadvertently dishonest answers, I always treat people's answers to this question with a lot of suspicion that not that I think that they're lying to me, but that they don't fully understand the ramifications of their of their answers themselves.
And so if I'm ever working with somebody long term, like I'm doing a mentorship with them, I will ask him this question and the over the course of the next like couple of weeks or months, I will be revisiting those answers with my skepticis like with evidence for why I might be skeptical and trying to reveal to them where their preferences are and where their goals are and how it aligns with what they're good at. Because you can't just like tell somebody you don't want to do splash art because they, you know, what basis do you even have for telling somebody to their face like you don't want to work for Riot? If they tell you they want to work for Riot, like why would you ever disbelieve them?
Um, but I think if you look at somebody's art and see the way that they work and what they love about art and it is the exact opposite of what Riot does, you know, it's possible to make a case to like help them see that's not what their goals are, but it it's something that is personal enough. It requires more of a conversation than what you can get in a portfolio review at a convention.
>> Yeah, that makes sense. And on the topic of that, actually, portfolio question um Eric Buai. Yes. Um, should I make illustrations in the style of the job I'm aiming for or just attempt to make the best art I can without changing my style? Which would be potentially better?
>> Better. Better is an interesting vague question, vague word.
>> Better for what?
>> Art directors will always tell you one answer, which is that you should always gear your portfolio towards the clients that you're trying to get.
>> Uh, which I think is a terrible piece of advice. I think it's just lazy answers from art directors who are sick of getting stuff that looks nothing like the projects they work on.
>> Um, >> sure.
>> Uh, I don't think that art artists making spec work is really that productive of an idea. I think discovering what you really love about art making and leaning into that is going to bring out the most fruitful like opportunities in the future.
I think that if we're thinking about best being like what's going to produce the best opportunities, I think it's that.
Uh >> oh, >> it's good advice. Oh no, we've lost Photoshop.
Um, yeah.
>> Uh, >> thank you.
>> Chicken Sensation says, "How far into your art journey were you when you decided to turn it into a business?"
>> Uh, immediately. Um, I started drawing when I was 16. Uh, and like that same year I like some friends invited me to come with them to an anime convention and I like spent 10 bucks to buy a table at the artist alley and I just had like drawings on lined notebook paper and I was sitting there trying to take like commissions.
I I have been either selling prints or trying to do commissions uh for my work like from like the very first year I started drawing. And so it's always been, this is why I mean about like I I got into this uh career as a indie in part because I've just had a natural fit for it. Um there's no point in my career where I wasn't doing that.
So there wasn't a point where I ever felt like I was ready. It was just like I I've always just done it to either like a a successful or unsuccessful degree like forever.
Yeah, I think a lot of people can kind of get themselves stuck by doing that is like waiting until you're ready. Like I'm not good enough to start taking commissions yet. I'm not I don't want to put myself out there. I don't want to like put my work online, you know? It's like there's this kind of feeling of wanting to prepare and like be optimal before you like kind of jump into the fray which you know I think you know can be a good option for some people but it kind of you lose >> I don't think there's any value in it. I mean you should screw up on somebody else's dollar. I think >> I think you should take commissions that you're unqualified for and do a bad job and then see if you can keep the money.
I just want to be on the side of artists, you know? Like that's the problem is like it may sound bad, but like I I've been on the end of paying for commissions, like not in illustration, but in like I'm trying to use >> sculptures. Like I'm making these minis >> and I'm just like eating somebody else's mistakes, you know? I do what I I'm trying to act in the way that I I would want to be treated. So I'm just paying out in full and moving on. Like >> um I really think artists should get make their mistakes on somebody else's time whenever they can. Get that job, talk your way into it, try to figure it out, and if you screw it up, like it's a learning experience.
Our recruiter, Richard, says, "Oh no, so much more work for me." Yeah, sorry, Richard. Uh um it is interesting though. I will say this also. Sorry, Richard. But I have, you know, I've taken jobs where I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to do the work. Um, almost like a guinea pig client, right, of like this is a big assignment and I did it and they were happy. Um, but it was definitely like a new thing that I I'm like, "Okay, listen. In my head, I'm I'm telling you, I can definitely do this." In my head, I'm like, "There's like a 70% chance I can do this." Um, >> yeah. I I remember early in my career getting some assignments from clients that were way bigger than I was capable of like fulfilling >> and I did my absolute best and in some cases I just screwed it up. They paid me out the contract and that was we walked away and that was the end of it.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you know years later I got better and I worked with them again.
like I you know when you're young and building your career like you know do what you can.
There's there's never a point where you're just going to be good enough.
>> It's a good point. Yeah. Um speaking of good enough, Patrick Ziggart says, um so finding out your own art taste will automatically bring the jobs instead of working towards a specific company. Um I guess in portfolio terms.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think part of the problem is that we don't actually know we like we we've heard of like some of the biggest players in games.
>> Uh oftentimes people have like you know you they know Riot Games. They know Wizards of the Coast >> and they're like, "Okay, so between Riot Games, Wizards of the Coast, and Blizzard, you know, who should I be shooting to get hired by?" Like most people who are trying to get art jobs will get hired by anybody who's paying and like you honestly don't know who's out there. Like >> it might be some startup of some company that no one's heard of yet who's like working on their like debut game that is looking for concept artists and don't doesn't have a lot of history with anybody.
>> Yeah.
um you don't know what projects are out there in industries that you're not like fully aware of like um I know there's a lot of historically like the last um let's say 10 years there's been a lot of work in mobile and artists don't really think about mobile games very much because it's not very high prestige >> but there's been billions of dollars flowing into mobile games and so they have money to be paying top tier contract rates for artists and a lot of artists have made good careers in that space.
>> So it's like um you know the time when I worked in mobile I didn't have a portfolio that was built for it. These days I think there's a little bit more of a precedent. So, they do look for people who have certain skill sets sometimes, but like >> if you're working in casino or mobile, like you really don't need to have this.
It's you're not going to be necessarily gearing your portfolio specifically for casino or mobile. Sure.
>> Maybe I'm just out of touch. Maybe that's just the way it was 10 years ago.
>> Richard says, "I don't actually hire people who I don't think could do the job." Yeah, that would be kind of a strange thing to do is hiring someone who's like, "Ah, maybe Yeah, you need to like sell them on the fact that you can do it.
>> Yeah, show those sketches, show your process, show your thought, you know, the variations that you can pivot on based on feedback.
>> Um that you're not going to be like reject criticism and, you know, be >> difficult to work with or, you know, uh >> but like if your [ __ ] looks really good, like if people look at your work and they go, "Damn, that's cool." Like they're not going to be like, "Can you do a T- pose turnaround?"
>> Like they they like if you can do something that is difficult, >> um you could probably do something that's easy.
>> That's a good point. Is Doodle says, "I remember in uni they'd often ask us to list our dream studios and gear towards those. I remember sitting there like, listen, man, I'm just happy to do concept art for someone."
>> Right.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think early in your career, it's like, I will take literally any job that is paying.
>> Um, >> yeah. Yeah. I had filled out some applications early on that were like, they're like, what's your desired position? And I just filled in any.
It's like, if you if you don't have a lot of positions for art right now, but like you need a QA tester, like I'm living in my parents house and I love video games. Like, >> um, they don't want to hear that.
>> Yeah.
They want people who can confidently perform tasks that they need done because they're trying to release a product.
>> Um, and so demonstrating your skills it in like the mo in the best possible way like creating like the best demonstration of your skills is like what the portfolio is intended to do. Mhm.
>> Um, and while that does also sometimes show that you can do a specific job by like doing, I don't know, spec work like demonstrations.
>> I think mostly what it is is just like do we think that this person has the underlying skill set to perform this work?
>> Um, and the reason why people don't get employed is typically because they're not demonstrating that.
>> Yeah. It's almost like finding, you know, problem solvers like we have a certain need for this client and we need to find people who can address this specific kind of need and what they're looking for. Um, so but also just like showing off your skills and you know what you're capable of and that you can solve problems.
>> Sure.
The the reason why I go kind of hard on the side of like um you should do personal work that just like impresses people >> is because I've seen a lot of student portfolios over the years and student portfolios >> you you've seen them. Um the I don't know students I think media see more student portfolios so they can see what this looks like >> but when you see like uh three to turnarounds one environmental painting you know couple of concept sketches a few life drawings and that's the portfolio you go this person has was born yesterday like they have not lived a full life yet >> like they're working hard they're doing Well, that's admirable. They're putting themselves out there, but this is not a portfolio.
>> Um, and you so if you're just showing off like a little bit of this, a little bit of that without any sense about like where your passions lie artistically and you you're doing like this smattering of different types of production art, like look, I can do I can do props, too. See, I did some item illustrations here. um mixed in along with your like one painting of a castle and like couple of life drawings or whatever that is like shows a level of confidence like through the floor. Mhm.
>> Um, and anybody who's ever looked at portfolios has seen that portfolio a thousand times because that's what happens when you do all your schoolwork in college >> and you pick all the best work that you have from like a three or four year period >> and you throw it in a folder and you take it out to like show to professionals >> and they're almost always going to be very kind to you about it. But like the one of the big things that like pushes people over the edge is like not looking like that.
>> Yeah.
>> And it requires you to have a dozen paintings that are like all the same sort of thing. So really great environmental process work like you know you can do um you know lots of different thumbnails and ideas for like environmental stuff like sketches. You should be showing an entire portfolio full of like environmental work that is across different genres and like using different work methods and you know demonstrating all the problem solving and needs of what goes into that kind of work. Um, people who are really into people who are environment artists, they like have an entire body of work that's environment art.
And uh, you typically people don't get that level of specificity at any point throughout college, which is why it is so tough to find stuff when you first get out.
>> Yeah.
>> Because everyone's portfolio looks nearly identical >> and it's a is tough thing to get past. I recall you went to college for >> you went through game design, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I went I went through a really bad game design program.
>> My school doesn't exist anymore. It >> Oh, wow.
>> got sued out of existence by the US government.
>> Well, that's a fun story for another stream. Okay. Interesting.
>> Yeah. Um yeah I yeah I think a lot of people also have gone to college that wasn't like maybe even art focused or they learned a lot of their um uh art like through you know YouTube and like personal you know studies and just like online stuff and like there's so many resources out there that I think you don't have to be you know I talked to a lot of student artists who are like worried about like I need to get into the right college for art and you know there's like DigiPen and Cal Arts and all that it's like well you know you'll >> I live near Ringling the illustration program at at Ringling is incredible.
>> The caliber of students I see come through here is unbelievable.
>> Somebody's asking, "Are you you also happen to be a UA Arts alum, too?"
>> Nope. I I was I'm an AI alone. So, there's more than one art school that was sued out of existence by the federal government.
>> What does that stand for?
>> Uh uh art institutes.
>> Oh, >> it was a for-profit college.
>> Oh, wait. We had one of those in Portland, actually. It was like Art Institute of Portland. And that also got sued out of existence.
>> That's Yeah, it was a big It was a whole bunch of them. It was like a whole system of them that um they were in all major cities.
>> Mhm.
>> And then it turns out that you're not allowed to give bonuses to recruiters for having kids sign up for student loans.
>> So if the federal government's going to back the student loans, you can't have them. You can't create financial incentive for somebody to like get somebody to sign on the dotted line.
>> Oh wow.
>> Because then you're creating an incentive for them to lie to somebody to get on a loan that they cannot default from.
>> Wow. Yeah. That is that is insane. And so when you have like cash bonuses for um people who are recruiting students um then you do end up with a lot of students getting actively lied to up to the point where they accept federal loans.
>> Man, that is what caused my school to stop existing.
Um, they told me that they had a 90% placement rate in the industry. So, like they were saying to everybody, if you as long as you're not in the bottom 10% of your class, you will get a job in games when you graduate.
>> Is that true?
>> It's no, it's never been true for anyone. Like I like the when I talk about the Ringling program, the caliber of of work from these students and the level of education they're getting from professors is unlike anything I've ever seen.
>> And you know, I don't know what the placement rate is, but I can guarantee you it's not 90%.
>> Yeah.
>> So, me going to like a a school in like the parking lot of the mall >> um not getting% great.
>> Yeah. strip mall school.
>> It wasn't strip mall. It was an office building, but it was in the parking lot next to Woodfield Mall in Shamberg.
>> Okay.
>> Suburb of Chicago.
>> Um >> our um our recruiter, Richard says, "It's like I always say, recruiters are the worst."
>> Yeah.
But um I guess I I don't know where that lie originated from, whether it was like the >> the recruiters themselves or the department they worked for, you know, but the law was you're not allowed to get give them cash bonuses for getting kids to sign up for this stuff >> because it creates a perverse incentive.
>> Yeah.
>> Um yeah, I think it's easy to agree with like you shouldn't do that.
>> Yeah, I agree. Uh taking advantage of kids is bad. Um anyway, >> uh >> it turned out fine for me.
>> I think >> I ended up getting a career in games pretty quickly after I graduated.
>> Um but like the thing I credit to that was that I was really active in online communities throughout my years in college.
>> I'm sure that the people in this chat are likely on the Moon Colony Discord indeed. And like I've had lots of really great voice chats with professionals and other aspiring artists. That kind of thing where you're constantly making stuff shared to other people online and you're constantly participating in in web communities.
>> To me, that's like where I felt like I learned everything that was valuable as an artist. It doing that for four years was like where I built my career from um more so than going to a college. So, I don't really consider myself even like self-taught, even though I didn't learn anything in college. It was like it was all from my peers online. So, I think I I'm a huge booster for online communities. I'm really happy that you guys have a such a nice space here.
>> Yeah, it's great. You know, I I've heard people compare it to kind of like the um you know, like the concept or concept art.org kind of vibe, you know, of like people sharing knowledge and giving feedback and even just like kind of the accountability of like working well just like chilling in a voice chat with people, you know? It's like it helps you kind of stay focused. It helps you, >> you know, um like get feedback just like, "Hey, look at this thing I'm doing. What do you think of this?" Um like very organic kind of conversation.
>> Um we're kind of >> It pushes you a lot. I think it pushed me a lot.
>> Yeah. Uh so come on, join the Moon Colony Discord. Uh >> Moon.
>> Uh but yeah, kind of closing out closing question. Um we got from Rob Schneider.
Uh, Robert Schneider, if someone would like to ask Peter opinions on their work, what would be the best way to ask Peter if that's a possibility? Um, catch me on a Discord call. Um, >> yeah, I I'm all I'm always trying to help people who ask for my help, but whenever I get a question online where if somebody DMs me and says, "Can you look at my portfolio and let me know what you think?" My question to them whenever I give feedback I always need to ask a lot of questions. I'm always asking them what do you want to know >> because like I don't think I can give useful feedback in like a purely holistic way.
>> Yeah.
>> Somebody's just like what do you think?
>> Yeah. It's like >> I'm going to just tell you it looks good and I'm proud of you.
That's like it feel like the most useful thing I can say because my my goal in that interaction is to be >> as valuable as possible to whoever I'm talking to and like if I don't have any other context and it's all over like DM chat that I'm like, you know, I'm I'm not sitting down to type a really long response. I'm on my phone, I'm on the couch, I'm I'm only able to answer so much. So, if you want to get feedback, like if you can find me hanging out in a Discord somewhere or if I'm running a free class or something, I I love helping, but it is challenging to help because I don't think that um broadly, you know, broadcasting platitudes like actually is that valuable. I think you really need to get to know who you're talking to. So, I I really valuable I really value like places where I can have one-on-one conversations with people or small groups where we can just go back and forth and discuss, you know, what are your needs personally >> because oftentimes people who are in very different industries, like they're in animation or whatever, I got nothing.
I'm like, you know, I think you're doing a great job. I couldn't do what you do.
It's about as good as I can get because like my skill set is kind of narrow.
like I know how to paint and that's about it.
>> Awesome. Well, yeah, this is um been an amazing stream. Thank you so much for coming on. Uh >> well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be able to be on here and like uh you know, chat with you and be able to like meet the community.
>> Absolutely. Uh thank you to everyone who was asking questions, hang out in the chat. We had a great time uh getting to everyone. Obviously made awesome progress in this painting. I hope uh yeah, I wish you the best.
>> Oh yeah, this is great. I got to I'm like pretty far along in this painting now. I get these claws cleaned up, a little bit of work on these like the head or whatever and like I've got a one of my um spot illustrations is done in a day. Been so good for me.
>> Awesome.
>> Thank you for giving me time to sit sit here and concentrate on it.
>> Totally, man. Yeah, best luck with your RPG. I I will definitely be checking out that book once it comes out.
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