Why Millions Of Banyarwanda Hide Their Identity In Uganda Dr Lawrence Muganga

[00:00:00]If you look at uh our history and you traced everyone where they come from, you would be surprised. You would find Cameroonians here. You've sent Nigerians here, but they are in a a form of a different tribe. But it's okay for them to be who they are. But why is it why is it difficult for a >> to be a Ugandan, >> you know, and we have pushed that even to this day. uh we are very grateful that uh his excellency the president has really been president has been on our side. He has uh supported us uh to to break the stigma of being a it was tough. People decided to hide in different tribes. People call themselves kung call themselves the same. I have a good friend of mine.

[00:00:54]He lost his name. He calls himself uh his father Rosindana gave him a name called Guyonga. Okay. He has since he growing up as a child he threw the the Rosindana he threw away Guyonga and he's called Seyonga Andrew and and despite the fact that at some point he was the chairman LC5 Mono district >> my district where I come from despite the fact that he has frequently reign as a member of parliament when his child went to ask for a passport she was denied a passport but later on it was fixed she got a passport so and thanks to president when he issued the executive order but you can imagine we have to beg to be Uganda you know but again you go back to uh human nature uh talk about psychology. The psychology of everything that we we live with, we do. Uh there is it takes it takes a particular level of maturity to start looking at Africa's African Africans as one.

[00:02:19]>> That's going to be tough.

[00:02:20]>> It is going to be very very tough. But uh we have to educate people on a daily basis. Now like when I got out of that kind of uh uh quagamaya that terrorist there are so many people who flocked my office you have to sue CMI you have to go to court you have to do everything I told I told them no and indeed and that's what I felt uh listen people make mistakes in life and when they make mistakes the good thing I am alive >> and they they didn't treat me bad So uh and then if you're going to sue CM uh CMI for example uh you were released by by on the orders of the president who is the the commander-in-chief the president. So if you're suing CMI you are suing the president and he's the same man who ordered that you be released. I am not special. There are some other people who have been arrested for particular reasons and they never even had a chance to come back. All right. Uh in in a week or two but me I was I was arrested yesterday. Today I am here. So I am grateful that actually I slept there one night.

[00:03:40]>> But again it was ugly. It was bad.

[00:03:43]>> It's quite it's actually quite traumatizing.

[00:03:46]>> Very traumatizing. And that's the time even my kids were around.

[00:03:49]>> Oh no. Yes.

[00:03:51]>> So all of a sudden you don't know where >> Yes. I told their mother that you know what uh tell them I I'm coming back. It it was actually prophetic and uh God God really worked with us very very well. I said you know what tell them I'm going for some work somewhere. I'll be back tomorrow. And I came back tomorrow. But somehow growing up being kids who uh are really raised in a tech world, they went online and they >> they found out >> found out all these things and they as but dad what had happened? They reading all the stories everything must have been super scared.

[00:04:29]>> Mhm. Then I explained to them. So, but it was ugly but also very very important to throw to throw some light to this kind of discrimination >> uh and um witch hunt witch hunting uh people just because of uh uh who they are >> you know yeah so but I'm grateful uh I was really very very thankful to them they could have harmed me but they could they didn't they could have uh done something Even worse they didn't and uh the president said you know what you have no case to answer please come out but also this Sunday needs to be uh clarified every I don't know I don't know uh what happens in Randa but uh within Randa Randa's immigration I don't know or Kenya's immigration or Tanzania's immigration but I know the Uganda now I know the Uganda's immigration Every time you assume another citizenship of another country, >> okay, you need to write to the immigration board of Uganda and you inform them that I'm taking up another citizenship, but I still need to maintain my Ugandan citizenship. So then you qualify for what they call dual citizenship. If you don't, you have lost your Ugandaness. M >> that is also something that happened to me.

[00:06:01]You know what I mean?

[00:06:02]>> So now but and that there are so many Ugandans in different countries they still think they Ugandans but when you are not engulfed in a situation like that you will never know and no one cares. You even come here and got a national you you come and you get a national ID and no one will even care.

[00:06:25]But legally by law you are not a Ugandan.

[00:06:30]You have to come back and apply for dual citizenship if you still need the other citizenship.

[00:06:39]So again in that process I went through uh the uh the immigration people were really kind were really very helpful. I applied for dual citizenship >> after the fact.

[00:06:51]>> Yes. Like you are a Ugandan and that Ugandanness can't get out of you, you know, but you have to regain your citizenship. So I applied and uh the board approved my citizenship and I got the uh the the certificate the citizenship certificate again. You know, you've become one of the most prominent voices in a movement that I think is so interesting for me.

[00:07:20]>> It's what I call the aband.

[00:07:24]>> Now for those who speak in aband means family members.

[00:07:28]>> Yeah. Brothers or brethren, >> brethren.

[00:07:32]Now there is it's it's become almost a way that Kinyandanda speaking Ugandans come together and identify each other.

[00:07:45]But within that movement of Ugandan Baranda there are two there almost two two two sides to the argument. There are >> those who I call those who call themselves aband then there are those who say that that is a renunciation of our identity that we are >> yes correct >> now very often there's obviously a a bit of a friction there >> friction >> because there's you've talked about identity that God made you this way >> he gave change it >> and you can't change it >> and I am a proud >> now what is this thing and don't you worry that even within the community that you're trying to unite that this initiative that might be a good it comes it probably comes from a good place >> might actually end up causing more harm It might end up causing division in an already what I'd call a vulnerable community.

[00:09:02]>> Already people are saying you guys are the other.

[00:09:07]Now you're it's like you're separating into oh but we are called we're not we're not them. We're not those bwanda call us.

[00:09:19]>> Isn't there an issue there? Now, thank you for giving me actually this opportunity to throw some light on this because I noticed it became very very like you said very contentious for so many people. Um, now and you said it very well uh uh that probably it comes from uh a good heart.

[00:09:44]No, it's not even probably it comes from a good heart.

[00:09:48]Like I said, I am a Minar, okay?

[00:09:56]And I didn't create myself.

[00:10:00]I was born one and God w it. I am a proud Manda and I'm a proud Ugandan and I'm a Ugandan. Proud to be Uganda.

[00:10:15]Every history of mine is written in this country.

[00:10:20]That of my parents in this country.

[00:10:27]They happen to have an ancestors great ancestors came from Rwanda.

[00:10:39]Natural justice really points to the fact that I should not be discriminated because of that.

[00:10:50]However, >> reality is different.

[00:10:54]Now in our situation here, our people, people like me, you have a name, you have a name, you have a name, Kagami, you have a name Hungi, you cannot, you are not Ugandan enough. you have come from somewhere.

[00:11:24]They even take it to a level that as if you have come you came yesterday.

[00:11:30]But while that discrimination is real, we should also be real and this is where my fellow Varanda don't want to step and face the facts. We have a constitution that actually if you look at how this constitution I'm not a lawyer evolved 19 1962 uh Banda who okay Banda or any other person who was there in the night or on the night of 8th October before independ independence became a Uganda.

[00:12:19]And even when they did this other constitution of what I think of 1966 or something like that that did not change.

[00:12:28]And even the 1995 constitution as it comes up it says anyone who was a Ugandan by the time this constitution is being made remains what? A Ugandan.

[00:12:39]Of course uh there are other articles uh that now specify that someone need to belong to a particular one of the indigenous communities and on sh on another schedule in the constitution. So and there but now you have to prove that you or your parents belong to that community indigenous community that was and must have been there before 1926.

[00:13:08]But let me tell you the if you go by the 1995 uh constitution there are so many without considering these other constitutions. There's so many of them uh whose parents came 1958, 1959, 1957, 1960, 1980, even 1994.

[00:13:39]Now those people the constitution does not look at them as as Ugandans that you need to apply for naturalization to be a citizen. And when you identify yourself as uh you go to imig an immigration officer asks you uh you're saying you fill in I'm a uh then they ask you okay when did your parents come come here uh you say 1959 immediately they send you for naturalization So but that created a situation that even when you don't fall in that category you are still >> sent to naturalization >> to natural to be naturalization or you don't get an ID or you don't and unless you lie said no no no me I am a muganda my father is a muganda my mother is a that's how many many many people uh really hide in that kind of uh uh camouflage of some sort. But uh when we noticed Sunny that our people are suffering because of just being a me.

[00:15:11]I remembered or we remembered we're a group of people by the way uh we said how can we really save our people and how can we also help immigration because every time now if um you are say let's use the ambassador of Rwanda in Uganda and we are in a meeting and we are asked to talk about who we He will introduce himself and say I am a Miranda.

[00:15:46]Me too. I'll stand up and say my name is Lawrence Muganga. I'm a now what do you want the immigration officer here in in Campala to do? He will start ask now I know this one is a Miranda who is even an ambassador of Rwanda to Uganda >> but you you of where then I have to now I've become a subject of investigation instantly.

[00:16:09]Then they have to determine I am I am of Uganda or amiranda of where of >> so that was happening to so many people comes uh comes and no one is asking them that question but because us we have a country where actually we come from our ancestors come from there so you are immediately planted Yeah, you understand? So we said, okay, I think we can overcome this problem.

[00:16:47]We said bafira as a tribe.

[00:16:52]When did they become bafira?

[00:16:56]They >> Yeah, that's a that's a fake that's a fake tribe.

[00:17:01]>> Thank you very much. Okay, I didn't I didn't want to say that.

[00:17:05]>> It's true.

[00:17:06]>> Uhhuh. But for them they go to their mountain and they call it and say for us we live here we are bomb.

[00:17:14]>> Now everyone has forgotten that they are actually and when they go and now so many decided to call themselves who such as they can get all these passports IDs but they are. Hey, if you like this snippet, there's a lot more waiting for you on the Long Form Podcast YouTube channel. Go check out the full conversation.