The Most Corrupt Week in American History? | The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich

追加: 2026-05-23

[00:00:01]And this is the Saturday coffee clutch with Michael Lannes Calderon and yours truly Robert Rich. Uh Heather Loft House will be back next week. Um Michael, what's up today? What are we going to talk about?

[00:00:13]>> I should start by asking you that.

[00:00:14]What's up with the shirt though?

[00:00:15]>> Oh this is this is you know >> this is what's called a humble brag I think because you've got all this >> What's a humble brag?

[00:00:20]>> Well it's when you're you know very very politely bragging about how you've got merch that nobody else has.

[00:00:25]>> Is this another Gen Z?

[00:00:27]>> I think this is a millennial thing actually. You're a little further behind. Oh, >> but you got this. You were on the show.

[00:00:31]>> This is I was on the show right after he got word >> that it was going to be his last show >> and it was weirdly quite emotional. I mean, the stage hands and everybody else were kind of upset and I uh and he tried to put on a very good face and I was uh publicizing my book.

[00:00:51]>> Um but it was but um and this is the merch, you know, this is the swag. And you you've been on Steven Colbear's other show before as well too, right?

[00:00:58]>> Yeah. The thing that people don't realize is that he's a very very kind and gentlemanly courteous man. He's he's really um well, you do see it. Some of it comes out when he's when he's doing his monologues or any any aspect of of him. Um >> it's sad. It's sad that it was his last program.

[00:01:19]>> Oh, it's terrible, Michael. It's just awful. And it and it infuriates me. It's CBS, you know. It's just it's just Trump once again uh in in intimidating uh another group of corporate chieftains who don't want to lose money. I mean this is all this is it's it's Trump's protection racket. I mean it it's it's very clear what happened. I mean CBS the former owners wanted to sell CBS. Uh they wanted to sell it to the highest bidder. Obviously, the Ellisons came along, David and Larry Ellison, and uh and one of the conditions clearly one of the conditions was uh you know, you give Trump whatever the 16 >> million dollars Trump demanded uh in terms of the a defamation lawsuit against uh 60 Minutes, wasn't it?

[00:02:06]>> Mhm.

[00:02:07]>> Uh and then you get rid of Coar who who Trump kept on saying over and over, you know, they've got to get rid of him. Uh put him to sleep. I mean, >> oh yeah, because he was talking about how there was essentially bribery happening, right? That was that was allegedly the thing that got in >> the sequence was absolutely clear. I mean, he made a joke about bribery with regard to that 60 million payoff and it was a payoff uh to Trump and then a week, you know, he's canned and then a week later the actual merger goes through.

[00:02:37]>> Yeah.

[00:02:38]>> Uh CBS is sold to Paramount to the Ellison. And I have to I mean imagine if you saw this happening in another country, right? I mean this is the sort of thing that president demands comedian be removed from television.

[00:02:50]>> Well, this is of course this is this is fascism. This is neoascism. This is uh you know Victor Orban would would do something like this and certainly Vladimir Putin would do something like this. I mean Trump knows absolutely no boundaries. Uh, and so his effort to chill even even somebody making fun of him and that's what he's that's what he hates most of all >> because that's you know that's humiliating to his ego his >> and telling the truth to boot >> and telling the truth. I mean comedians actually are among the most powerful trutht tellers in any society.

[00:03:27]>> Did you see who they're replacing him with?

[00:03:30]>> Who?

[00:03:30]>> Well I I had to sort of do a double take when I saw this. Um, but it's some multi-millionaire or billionaire. I'm not actually sure of the scale of his wealth named Byron Allen.

[00:03:40]>> Wait a minute. He's going to actually replace >> Yeah. Well, in the same time slot. Not the late the late show is over. The whole brand, but it's the same.

[00:03:48]>> 11:35 p.m. Now this guy named Byron Allen.

[00:03:50]>> Is Byron Allen a comedian?

[00:03:52]>> I I think at some point he was on Johnny Carson and then he became a businessman.

[00:03:56]He bought the Weather Channel. He bought a controlling stake in BuzzFeed among other things. And now he said he's going to do something called Comics Unleash where it's just be funny, don't offend, and there won't be any politics, nothing topical.

[00:04:08]>> Great. Well, this is See, this is it's it's funny what's happening, but it's also outrageous. Yeah.

[00:04:14]>> Okay. This is CBS management not wanting to offend Trump. Don't put anybody in that slot who could possibly be offensive. So, get a billionaire. This guy is a billionaire. Byron Byron Allen.

[00:04:28]>> Byron Allen. get a billionaire who's also um you know a a credible comedian.

[00:04:35]>> I guess I mean I suppose we'll find out the five people who tune in >> and and make sure he's he's he doesn't do anything that is offensive to Trump.

[00:04:43]>> Yeah. I mean it's kind of amazing to say that you're going to put something in the place where the late show was that's explicitly not topical at all as well.

[00:04:50]>> Well, it's a it's an insult to Cobear and all the all the people who are audiences of Cobear.

[00:04:56]>> Yeah. Well, not the only insulting thing that happened this week.

[00:05:00]>> My my recommendation, by the way, for you and for me and for all of you is don't watch this. Okay. Don't watch this. Byron Allen.

[00:05:08]>> Yeah. Comics Unleashed.

[00:05:10]>> Yeah. Don't watch comics unleashed. I mean, this is fascists unleashed.

[00:05:16]>> Yes. And speaking of things being unleashed, I mean, you've been seeing all the news about the 1.8 billion slush fund this week, haven't you?

[00:05:23]>> Wait a minute. Can you Byron Allen is a billionaire himself? Yes. Right. He purchased the weather channel.

[00:05:28]>> I mean, this is this is >> Oh, I mean, if you want to talk about the power of money at play, it seems like there's just back deals happening left and right everywhere, either in the industries themselves that are trying to, you know, bend before Trump.

[00:05:40]>> The bad guys are winning, Michael, but we are not going to allow them to.

[00:05:43]That's right. Okay. So, can I Well, I want to ask you about this IRS slush fund thing because this feels like >> an IRS slush fund, but this is this is important because this fellow Todd Blanch, who is the acting attorney general, desperately wants to be attorney general. The only reason he was put into the acting attorney general slot is that he was a former lawyer for Trump. He was Trump's lawyer during Stormmy Daniels.

[00:06:06]>> Mhm.

[00:06:06]>> He's loyal to Trump. That's all he qualification.

[00:06:09]>> That's all. That's the only qualification. And you know, Pam Bondi obviously was fired because she was not loyal enough and she couldn't pull it off.

[00:06:18]>> Yeah.

[00:06:18]>> So, this guy is loyal. That's all he does. That's all he wants is Trump's approval.

[00:06:23]>> But do you think he's going to be able to pull this off, though? I mean, and by this we mean essentially providing this huge slush fund and making sure that, you know, Trump is protected in all of these various ways.

[00:06:33]>> That's the other part of this deal.

[00:06:35]Yeah. Right. It's not just a 1.8 a billion dollar slush fund that Trump can use however he wants.

[00:06:42]>> Uh and it's also this immunity to further IRS audits. Never again. Never again.

[00:06:48]>> I have to I mean surely this is just a piece of paper that the next administration could tear in half, right? I mean, it's not permanent in any real >> sense. I I don't see how it could bind future administrations. I mean, this is a this is even even an executive order.

[00:07:03]This is an agreement. It's not even a court settlement. I mean, this is important because the the court who was overseeing this uh 10 what was it10 billion?

[00:07:13]>> Oh, yeah. He wanted $10 billion.

[00:07:14]>> He wanted billion dollars from the IRS.

[00:07:17]And now he runs the Justice Department, Trump. He with an iron fist and he runs obviously the IRS. And he said he wanted $10 billion. And so there was some negotiation between Trump and Trump, right?

[00:07:27]>> Wow. Trump won.

[00:07:28]>> I wonder who who won out of that.

[00:07:29]>> Well, Trump definitely definitely won.

[00:07:32]uh and uh and and out of it came not a settlement because a settlement has got to be approved by the provide presiding judge and the presiding judge here I think was was prepared to throw this case out because there's no case in controversy. Trump is on both sides. Uh so uh instead they circumvented the judge by calling it an agreement and uh you know this is this is corruption beyond corruption. Yeah, >> Michael. I mean, this was even enough to break Senate Republicans a little bit, right? Because they were supposed to pass this huge reconciliation bill this week and instead they left town.

[00:08:07]>> They left town. This is this is them saying basically, "Fuck you, Trump." Uh, and Mitch McConnell, >> well, he said that um it was utterly stupid and morally wrong, which that coming from Mitch McConnell, >> utterly stupid, morally wrong from Mitch McConnell. Yeah.

[00:08:22]>> Is really a badge of infamy. You know, I just I feel like Mitch McConnell could have stopped this five years ago if he really wanted to. Let's not forget January 6th. Republicans in the Senate.

[00:08:33]>> Well, let's not forget Mitch McConnell, you know, get engineering all of these justices.

[00:08:38]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:08:38]>> On the court for Trump. No, Mitch McConnell is is obviously a a Trump puppet. But for Mitch McConnell to turn around and say that and for the Senate Republicans to basically get out of town and not provide any votes on this reconciliation bill that Trump wanted and demanded, uh, this is a big deal.

[00:08:57]>> And they also just dropped because the Senate parliamentarian, to get really into the weeds here, said that they couldn't have it in the bill, the $1 billion for Trump's ballroom from the bill.

[00:09:05]>> And Trump Trump wants to get rid of the parliamentarian.

[00:09:08]>> Yeah.

[00:09:08]>> You know, that's that's Trump's response. This is the dictatorial neofascist response. you anybody who in any way opposes you, you get rid of them or you make sure that you get rid of them. This is what Trump did last week, you know, with Massie.

[00:09:22]>> Yeah.

[00:09:23]>> Uh I mean, all >> I was going to ask, I'm kind of surprised to see that the Senate decided to leave town given that one of their colleagues just lost his seat in a primary. I think it's one of the first senators to lose in a primary in years.

[00:09:33]>> Cassidy.

[00:09:34]>> Yeah. Uh well, I I think actually what Trump has created is a group of Republicans, Massie, Cassidy, others who he opposed who are still going to be there for the next 6 months.

[00:09:46]>> Yeah.

[00:09:47]>> And they have nothing to lose, >> which seems to be the only time that Republicans in Congress are willing to stand up to him.

[00:09:51]>> Well, >> I mean, Tom Tillis in that category as well, right?

[00:09:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. Thank God for small favors.

[00:09:56]I mean, at least at least they have a shred of integrity left and they're standing up to him and maybe they're giving a little cover to some other Republicans or maybe they will.

[00:10:05]>> Uh, the Republican party is basically not a I mean, it's it's a criminal enterprise practically. Yeah.

[00:10:12]>> Uh, you know, it's it's it's aiding and abetting a criminal president.

[00:10:16]>> Well, there was in another bit of small small Republican resistance, you saw that Bill Cassidy voted for the war powers resolution for the first time this week. So that passed in the Senate on Iran, but it didn't pass in the House because the House decided to just >> go away for a couple days.

[00:10:31]>> Well, but all of these even small >> uh kind of defiance >> acts of defiance by Republicans toward Trump are very important. I mean, a they infuriate Trump, but b uh they show the emperor has no clothes. I mean, it is possible to actually speak truth to power if you're a Republican and go on living. Well, I wanted to ask you because it feels like it could build into more resistance, you know, depending on how things go in the next couple months. And I was reading online um and you'll have to tell me because you were there. You know, even Nixon, like the intraarty collapse of support within the Republican party didn't really happen until August of a midterm year. So, we're currently in May. And I mean, do you feel that things are building towards Republicans taking on Trump like they abandoned Nixon or is it similar? Is it different?

[00:11:20]>> It's it's it's different. Um partly because you had right from the start uh Republicans in the Senate and the House who were not dependent on Nixon uh who had their own constituents uh who were very loyal to them.

[00:11:36]>> Um and and therefore there was already kind of a degree of integrity in >> independence from Nixon. Yeah.

[00:11:44]>> So you know they Watergate investigation you also had a Washington Post.

[00:11:49]>> Oh right.

[00:11:50]>> Right. Uh that was >> whatever happened to that that little paper.

[00:11:53]>> Let's >> we'll get into that.

[00:11:54]>> We'll get into that. I mean Washington Post is now as far as I'm concerned dead.

[00:11:58]>> All right.

[00:11:59]>> Uh because of Jeff Bezos.

[00:12:01]>> Yeah.

[00:12:01]>> Uh another corrupt influence.

[00:12:04]>> Uh but in those days you had a a Washington Post uh that was just feeling its oats and just you know it was still a regional paper but it was aspiring to be a national paper. and Woodward and Bernstein uh got hold of this trail, this this kind of follow the money trail and they did and the public started to pay attention and the media started to pay attention and this thing starts building uh and Republicans in Congress are also very sensitive to this. Nixon already was unpopular with the Republican party. they were worried about him and they were worried about midterms and so on and yeah the situation was slightly different but there are enough parallels Michael to make your question an intriguing question >> unlike Nixon you know it's clear Trump has an iron grip on the Republican party >> and somehow Richard Nixon has slightly more shame than Donald Trump because he did ultimately resign right >> uh well he he resigned because he resigned because uh it was clear he was going to be impeached that the Senate was going to impeach him. Donald Trump uh has survived two impeachments. He feels now no constraints whatsoever.

[00:13:15]There is no not only no shame, there's never been any shame in Trump.

[00:13:18]>> Uh but there there is also in Trump now a a a sense of complete omnipotence, total omnipotence.

[00:13:27]>> He feels untouchable. Basically >> he's he feels absolutely untouchable.

[00:13:30]There's nothing that anybody can do to him. That's what he feels. Uh may maybe to some extent true.

[00:13:36]>> I'm going to knock on wood and say maybe not.

[00:13:39]>> Maybe not. Um I hope that the midterms are not just a blue wave, Michael. I hope that there were a blue tsunami. I mean, just taking out all of these Republicans, putting in uh Democrats, not only the House, but also the Senate, so that there is a force uh to take Trump on and that the Democrats feel some degree of empowerment and and integrity. I mean, some of them do already, obviously, but more of them need to.

[00:14:07]>> I want to get back to Bezos, but I want to talk about >> I don't want to get back to Basos. Bezos is a jerk. Can I just say that publicly?

[00:14:14]You know, he is an [ __ ] >> Oh, okay.

[00:14:17]>> I will. I mean, not just because he went after me this week.

[00:14:20]>> Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because you Well, first of all, before we talk about how he went after you specifically, this is on the tail end of like a week-long PR tour about how awesome he is and how you shouldn't tax him. Essentially, he was you saw that CNBC interview. I don't pay taxes. So true. I pay billions of dollars in taxes and it's a per again if people want me to pay more billions, right?

[00:14:40]>> Then let's have that debate. But don't pretend, you know, that this that that's going to solve the problem. You could you could double the taxes I pay and it's not going to help that teacher in Queens. I promise you. Bezos says people at the top are paying 40%, the top 1% is paying 40% of all the taxes, you know, and um and the the bottom half is paying 3% of taxes. I mean, he goes on national television to say something like the fourth richest person in America says or the world says that when in fact it's it's it's a lie. It's a complete and utter lie. If you look at it doesn't include social security taxes. 80% of Americans pay more social security. The bottom 80% pays more in social security than the top. Uh and it doesn't include state and local taxes which are quite regressive.

[00:15:32]>> Yeah. Well, could we could we pause there for just in terms of explaining progressive and regressive taxes for our audience? What do we mean by that?

[00:15:38]>> Well, regressive taxes mean that the poor or lower income are paying a higher percentage of their income uh than are the rich. and people like Bezos and corporations like Amazon that are getting away with murder. I mean, fiscally getting away with murder, they shouldn't be allowed. And for Bezos to go on television, on national television, on CNBC, and issue these lies. I'm not angry that he attacked me.

[00:16:04]>> Yeah. Well, so he he reposted this thread, which we don't have to get into from on by some essentially right-wing grifter who's been elevated by Elon Musk before on X. Um, saying, you know, don't worry about, you know, what Robert Rich is saying. It's all lies. You know, it'll pull a little wool over from from over your eyes or something like that.

[00:16:23]But I mean, all of that is to obiscate the fact that he's got this huge amount of money that he's borrowing against, right, to live. He doesn't have a traditional income. Could you explain that a little bit?

[00:16:32]>> This is this is an important point.

[00:16:33]these billionaires, multi- we're talking about a set of billionaire, right? He's fourth richest, third richest person in in the world.

[00:16:40]>> It's a lot of money.

[00:16:41]>> It's a lot of money. And what they can, if you have that much money, what you can do is get a loan from a bank.

[00:16:47]>> Mhm.

[00:16:48]>> Um, use your money as collateral. I mean, a bank is not going to worry about ever collecting against a loan. Uh, and so Bezos u goes and says, "Well, I I I want to take out this loan." And he takes out it's for all his living expenses. Mhm.

[00:17:02]>> It's not a small loan, but it's not all his income obviously. So, he avoids income taxes on almost all of his income >> because he's not actually, you know, he's getting a very very small I mean, he's he's hiding the rest of it.

[00:17:17]>> Yeah.

[00:17:18]>> Not using the rest of it.

[00:17:19]>> And this was true of Musk. I mean, speaking of billionaires this week, because there was the SpaceX IPO. I don't know if you saw the news about that. And there was this whole section in there about how he's going to get all of these new shares which he's going to be allowed to borrow against early essentially even before they vest.

[00:17:34]>> Michael, these people, these are the robber barons of the second guilded age.

[00:17:38]You know, we had a first guilded age starting in 18 1890s going through the 1920s.

[00:17:45]It did not end well >> for them.

[00:17:47]>> The great crash of 1929 for anybody. But we had that first guilded age and we had robber barons. That's what they were called. U and uh you know they were the so-called billionaires of that age. They were not literally billionaires.

[00:18:03]>> U but we now have a second guilded age where the you know with a conspicuous consumption of these wealthy people but it's also much more corrupt. The first guilded age was corrupt. This guilded age is far more corrupt.

[00:18:18]>> Well guilded age. The other thing he said um was he spent a good, you know, 30 seconds uh kissing Trump's derriè.

[00:18:26]>> He was talking about how, you know, I I think he's more mature, more disciplined. You got to give him credit where credit is due.

[00:18:31]>> He's talking about Trump.

[00:18:32]>> Yeah. Which I I >> I mean, on its face, it's ridiculous.

[00:18:36]But I think that also if you have an absurd amount of money, it seems kind of I don't know crazy to me that you still feel the need to debase yourself like that. Like is it worth it? I mean this is more of a moral answer is no but you know >> well it's an interesting existential question and an epistemological question is it worth it I think that when you are the you know uh when you have hundreds of billions of dollars >> uh what you want to do is make sure that nobody touches it because you feel like a target uh and if you have a president who can even make you more money uh you know there's no end to desire you have. I mean, there's always somebody who's going to be richer than you, like Elon Musk. And so, I think Bezos, he he sees that there all of these federal contracts.

[00:19:27]>> And he does, and I can give you some tangible numbers on that as well. He's got $260 million plus in Blue Origin federal contract. Blue Origin is his SpaceX competitor rocket company. Um, you know, he's gotten, first of all, he also did that Melania movie, don't forget, as a bribe. Oh, in terms of bribes. Listen, I can It's the Melania movie.

[00:19:47]>> That movie cost him a total of $75 billion. Him and Amazon.

[00:19:52]>> $75 million.

[00:19:53]>> That'd be an expensive millennium movie.

[00:19:54]>> No. No. 75 million. And um they the best estimate um the mo the most optimistic estimate on that the money they get in from that movie is 10 million. Yeah.

[00:20:06]>> So, that's right there. A is $65 million bribe uh essentially from Jeff Bezos to Trump, >> which is why, you know, he also gets things like a slap on the wrist for an FTC settlement over claims that Amazon Prime was tricking customers into paying accounts. Um, and let's not forget about all the huge tax cuts that have happened in the in both Trump administrations.

[00:20:26]Okay, this is important because he has, you know, the FTC under Biden was going after Amazon >> and uh for good reason because Amazon was essentially telling >> all of the people, all of the companies that were on Amazon, you cannot uh advertise sales and provide sales on any other platform. You can't charge less than you're charging here on Amazon. So he was keeping prices up for basically everybody. Uh and the and the FTC was going after him.

[00:20:58]>> Yeah.

[00:20:58]>> And he was monopolizing uh you know in in ways that were not only unfair to consumers but were actually making things less and less affordable. So what did Trump do? The Trump FDC basically Yes. gave him a slap on the wrist.

[00:21:14]>> Yeah.

[00:21:14]>> Uh but you have to understand that there's this quid proquo. It it's it's not just the Melania movie. Yeah.

[00:21:22]>> Uh he also uh you know Bezos purchased the Washington Post and told the Post in no uncertain terms it could not endorse Kla Harris. Uh it wanted to the editorial page of the Post wanted to endorse Kla Harris in the 2024 election.

[00:21:39]Uh Bezos said no. A lot of people left the post. A lot of the editorial writers left the post. Um and he basically now has instructed the editorial page of the post they have got to not only be pro Trump but they've got to be pro u capitalism, you know, I mean it's it's it has utterly eliminated the credibility of the editorial page of the Washington Post.

[00:22:07]They've lost a lot of good people >> and it's a shame. And I I wanted to ask you about one more thing from the CNBC interview because this has been got getting a lot of play on its own. It's like the only thing that certain people have been reacting positively to. But go ahead.

[00:22:19]>> No, no. I was just going to say I waver be between whether the worst of the modern robber barons is Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Uh and every other day I think it's Jeff Bezos.

[00:22:31]>> Yeah.

[00:22:32]>> I mean really.

[00:22:32]>> So then every other other day it's Elon Musk.

[00:22:34]>> Elon Musk. But you've got also the Ellisons.

[00:22:37]>> Yeah.

[00:22:38]>> Right. I mean they they have become modern-day robber barons. they are out there sucking up to Trump and getting deals and that's you know that's basically what CBS is all about. Uh and you have uh you have others who are out there you know making deals. I mean this is this economy particularly under Trump has become a a pay-to-play economy. It's become a dealmaking economy. A lot of what we learn about in economics and in you know about the supply and demand curves and everything else.

[00:23:13]>> This economy is not based upon that.

[00:23:16]It's based on personal favoritism to Trump.

[00:23:19]>> Yeah.

[00:23:20]>> Uh and it's it's >> got to kiss the ring if you want to make a deal.

[00:23:23]>> It's underlying. I mean it's it's it's hurting the economy, Michael. I mean it's it's not just his tariffs and his war uh in Iran. Yes, they are hurting the economy, but it's also the underlying uh fundamental corruption.

[00:23:37]>> Well, this relates to the question I was going to ask you because I think one of the things that people like Jeff Bezos offer up as a fig leaf to the people who are suffering in the economy right now is and Trump in his own way too with no tax on tips is the suggestion that like well hey if you're making less than this amount of money in income 50 grand we should just have no taxes on you at all federally and that's going to you know change your life in the same way that not paying taxes for him I'm sure is really nice as well. Um, but that doesn't mean you're not paying taxes at the end of the day, right?

[00:24:06]>> That was that's what I said before because because most people are are paying more 80% of Americans are paying more in social security taxes than they are in federal taxes >> and tariffs which you would call >> tariffs or import taxes. Import taxes.

[00:24:21]So people are paying more for all kinds of goods and uh and some services that are related to those goods and people are paying more. State and local taxes are also hugely a big big part of the uh what what's paid by average average people. So if you put all of these taxes together, the entire tax system is tilted uh for the rich and against the poor. And for Bezos to say otherwise is he must know better than that. Well, he's he's got a very highpowered, high paid PR team, I'm sure, feeding him all of this to >> Well, I mean, or but he but if he doesn't have them check the the facts, I mean, he's in other words, he's either a nave or a fool.

[00:25:02]>> Audience, if you want to pick nave or fool, feel free to comment below and we can see who wins. Um, I did like this quote from AOC in retort as a retort to that though. She said, um, this race to try to see who can be exempt from participating in society is not a conversation that I'm interested in. I'm a great society de democrat and I believe in building that together and I think that the discourse around everyone let's all be like billionaires and opt out of our taxes is not an inspiring message.

[00:25:27]>> One of the least talked about but most kind of undermining of of the social contract aspects of of widening inequality is the people at the top really can secede from society. Uh you've got this I talked about it years ago as the secession of the successful.

[00:25:47]Uh, and that's what they are doing. Uh, they are they're leaving the rest of us. I mean, Bezos is talking about doing it literally going to Mars.

[00:25:57]>> Oh, they'd all love to be in space, but >> but they they really don't want to have anything to do with American society.

[00:26:04]Uh, and >> did you see, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that the allegedly the astronaut leading the first crude Mars mission from SpaceX is a billionaire. Not Musk, some other guy who I assume paid for the privilege.

[00:26:14]And it's not the guy who's taking over of the late night.

[00:26:17]>> No. No. They're keeping him on Earth.

[00:26:20]>> I mean, it's it's funny, but it's not funny. Yeah.

[00:26:22]>> I know. I mean, the the the infection, it's like a poison in our society because it it leads everybody else to become more cynical.

[00:26:30]>> Yeah.

[00:26:30]>> Uh about the whole system. I mean, people and and cynicism is just one little millimeter away from hopelessness.

[00:26:40]>> Yeah.

[00:26:40]>> And if people are hopeless, then they give up. then they don't fight this.

[00:26:44]>> And it's a two-pronged attack, too, because you've got Trump driving this political cynicism by destroying everything. And Bezos saying, "Well, hey, you know, it would be great if you're like me and you had a bunch of money. Then you wouldn't have to worry about any of this tax stuff, you know, just pay to play." But you say it's two prongs is actually they're the same prong because because the the billionaires and multi-millionaires and Senate billionaires behind Trump, they are there because Trump is doing their work and they're supporting him as he supports them. They are the same.

[00:27:16]>> Yeah.

[00:27:16]>> Uh and for, you know, this notion that MAGA, you know, workingclass MAGA, yes, they are there supporting Trump, but Trump sold them a bill of goods. I mean, he uh they're going to catch on at some point. And if the Democrats were smart, they would make sure that the MAGAs do catch on. No, the real power structure here is the Musks and the Bezos's and the people who are uh you know, Peter Teal, for example, really behind this >> I'm not even going to call it an administration. Okay. It's a regime.

[00:27:52]>> This oligarchic regime.

[00:27:53]>> It's a regime. Oligarchic regime.

[00:27:55]Exactly.

[00:27:56]>> Well, that was a lot of grim stuff. Um, but I wanted to talk about >> it. It's grim in a way. It's funny in a way. It's outrageous also. I agree.

[00:28:05]>> I mean, it's happening, Michael. It's happening. I mean, Steven Colbear um leaving is just the the the the latest surface manifestation of the rot and corruption.

[00:28:18]>> Well, and you spoke about this um over the weekend, last weekend to a bunch of recent graduates at UC Berkeley. You gave a commencement speech, isn't that right?

[00:28:26]>> I did. And I was whenever I feel really um desparing, which is more often than not these days, than I'd like to admit.

[00:28:37]>> Um I I I think of my students. I I talk to my students. Uh I still I'm still teaching a little bit.

[00:28:44]>> Mhm.

[00:28:45]>> And uh they they make me feel better.

[00:28:48]>> Well, we can play a little bit of a clip here. Uh let's do a little excerpt from the speech. the systems that have been in place in this nation for nearly 250 years to advance democracy and prevent authoritarianism are under ever greater strain.

[00:29:08]Why is democracy so important and authoritarianism so dangerous?

[00:29:18]Because the moral purpose of a civilized society is to prevent the stronger from attacking and exploiting the weaker.

[00:29:31]But let me be absolutely clear.

[00:29:35]Unfettered might does not make right.

[00:29:44]I can't tell you how great it made me feel to to see um 10,000 9,000 uh of these gradu graduating seniors. I mean, they're first of all, it's a very diverse group.

[00:29:58]>> Mhm.

[00:29:58]>> More diverse than any place I've ever talked uh including especially uh Harvard. Um, but it's also a group of of young people who don't feel entitled.

[00:30:12]Uh, they want to change the world, many of them. And many of them are still optimistic even though they're facing the worst job market you can imagine.

[00:30:21]>> Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about that. I mean, what kind of a world are they facing specifically? I mean, what what other than what we just saw did you did you offer up to them either when you were just chatting casually before and after?

[00:30:32]>> Well, what I what I try to tell them whenever we talk about everything that's going on is that it was pretty bad when I graduated college.

[00:30:43]>> And what year was that?

[00:30:45]>> Is that rude to ask?

[00:30:46]>> 1868.

[00:30:47]>> Oh, right.

[00:30:48]>> No, 1968. Okay. Um and in 1968 at my graduation uh we had you know so many of my classmates were going to Vietnam or in danger of going to Vietnam.

[00:31:03]>> It hung like a like a sort of domically over the entire class. Uh and that spring Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated and before that Martin Luther King had been assassinated and the cities of America were burning because so many people so many particularly black people and others were so uh desparing and angry uh and uh and the summer was was you know the Democratic National Convention I dropped in on some of my friends had been clubbed you know that's just a horrible horrible horrible time. Uh and then of course Hubert Humphrey is the Democratic nominee. He didn't go through any uh caucus or any particular primary.

[00:31:52]>> Um you know I was out there clean for gene clean. I I went 17 states for Eugene McCarthy that that spring and that before the assassination of of Bobby Kennedy.

[00:32:04]Uh, and then of course Richard Nixon is elected in the fall. So Michael put I can't imagine. I tell my students, you know, I know how frustrated you are. I know how awful this seems. You know, I've been there. Uh, I I I thought it could not get worse.

[00:32:23]>> Well, Trump is worse.

[00:32:27]>> Uh, Trump is worse than Nixon.

[00:32:29]>> Well, but but >> Sorry, I didn't mean to. But no, but but what do I tell them?

[00:32:37]>> I tell them that we need them.

[00:32:38]>> Yeah.

[00:32:39]>> That we need their leadership. We need their enthusiasm, their energy. Um that the country needs them. The world needs them. Um we are in a crisis.

[00:32:51]>> Yeah. And I think that it's well, first of all, better received commencement speech than some of the others that I've been seeing going around. Have you seen all of the speakers who were talking about how wonderful AI was?

[00:33:01]>> Yes.

[00:33:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a low bar that you just established, but >> but you passed it.

[00:33:07]>> Well, it was um >> well, but I think that that's that is, you know, obviously every generation has its own challenges. Um but I think that I know a lot of younger people who are very concerned about the role of AI in in various industries even right now, let alone when they're actually going to be reaching, you know, a career stage that they need to be making a lot of money for because they want to start a family or they want to buy a house. like what is the future of the economy going to look like given that it seems like all of the various oligarchs and billionaires are dumping a bunch of money into replacing human workers?

[00:33:39]Well, it I if nothing is done, in other words, if we just simply allow AI to do what it's going to do, without any regulations, without any um programs or any policies in place to help people who are going to lose their jobs, uh I think the gap between the super rich, you know, the the Bezos Musk crowd, uh and most other people is going to be widening to a point where we don't have a society any longer.

[00:34:10]Uh so I I think the first thing we that is sane people if we ever are in power again have to do uh is control AI come up with regulations that are sensible not just because of jobs but also because of you know all of the things that AI could horribly do if it were not controlled.

[00:34:33]uh but also create a system that protects people on the downside if they lose their jobs, if they you know a universal basic income would be one. Um guaranteed job um you know uh also >> taxing the rich perhaps >> and paying for it.

[00:34:52]>> Yeah.

[00:34:52]>> With a wealth tax.

[00:34:54]>> Yeah. I mean, the reason, for example, I came out uh for Tommy Styer for governor of California is because he is the only candidate for governor of California who is solidly behind this California wealth tax, billion wealth tax on billionaires.

[00:35:14]Yeah.

[00:35:15]>> Just on billionaires.

[00:35:16]>> Um and I think it's important to establish that in this country as a legitimate tax.

[00:35:22]>> Yeah. And I think especially when we're seeing I mean even just in the immediate crisis of Iran all of these prices going up for people and the systems that do exist straining under the pressure of trying to support people. I mean this memorial this is Memorial Day weekend we're coming up on right and there's going to be a lot of people who are going to try and gather with families travel and every single one of those inputs and outputs is up. Right. Well, you know, when I was talking a moment ago about 1968, I I I flashed on >> uh a a very dear friend of mine, I made I met my first day at college. He was also a freshman and he helped me, you know, I had these heavy, you know, they weren't just they were actually big these cases. What are they called? What are they called now nowadays? I don't know.

[00:36:11]>> Suitcases.

[00:36:12]>> Well, no, they weren't suitcases. There were just big cases. I was lugging it up the steps and he came down and helped me. His name is Robbie. As soon as he graduated, >> he went to Vietnam and he was killed and his remains still have not been located.

[00:36:28]>> And so on Memorial Day, I think about Robbie. I think about his kindness. Um he was the kindest uh gentlest most giving person at the age of 18 who I had ever met. Um and on Memorial Day I think we have got to stop for a moment and think about all the people who have given their lives to an ideal and that ideal is America. And it's not just America. It's the notions of a democracy and the rule of law and freedom and the possibility of equal opportunity. Really equal opportunity.

[00:37:13]And Robbie died for it and and millions of others have died for it. My father's generation, the greatest generation in World War II. Um, and so when we have a a dictator, a neofascist as president, and when we have a, you know, an oligarchy, uh, comprised of people like Jeff Bezos who doesn't know what he's talking about or is a nave or a fool, uh, and and Elon Musk and the other robber barons of this era, I think it's important for young people to focus on all of the sacrifice ices that have been made for generation after generation after generation so that we can have democracy and freedom and equal opportunity and the rule of law and that these principles we're never going to get them. They're entirely Michael they're aspirations.

[00:38:10]>> Mhm.

[00:38:12]>> But they're aspirations that are still meaningful, still worth fighting for.

[00:38:20]Well, I think that's a beautiful sentiment to end on perhaps. And thanks for having me on.

[00:38:25]>> Happy Memorial Day.

[00:38:27]>> Happy Memorial Day.