Soy Catholic Mark vs Jay Dyer Debate Ethics and Roman Catholicism

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]Hello, Mark.

[00:00:02]Oh, unmute yourself on on Hangouts.

[00:00:06]Cuz we're not using >> Uh where do I do that? Oh, no, so I'm talking to uh Jay cuz we're talking through Discord. So, Jay, just unmute >> Gotcha. I'm here. All right. Now, let me actually just leave here.

[00:00:16]Uh 1 second. Disconnect. All right. Hey, Mark, how you doing, man?

[00:00:20]Hey, all right. Can you guys hear me all right? I've never been on this Google Hangouts before.

[00:00:25]>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's working perfect, dude. It's working perfect. So, my name is Andy, by the way. Welcome to Warski Live. Uh I saw your your message. I promise you this isn't a porn show. We do We do not talk about or do that stuff.

[00:00:38]>> An important show?

[00:00:40]A porn show?

[00:00:41]>> show before. But we don't do porn.

[00:00:43]>> No, a porn show? You said it was a porn show?

[00:00:47]I promise you it's not a porn show.

[00:00:49]Well, it was last week. Were you talking with Shawn Stone about all kinds of satanic isms stuff? Oh, yeah. We were asking about I mean, like if we discuss something with a person that has has to do with things that might be sexual, we might like like dive into that, but never >> that That kind of stuff is discussed in the Bible. So, is the Bible a porn show?

[00:01:12]Yeah, okay. I understand that point, but it has to do with intention and Oh, so you know You know our intentions.

[00:01:19]You're making a jokes about it. So, that Oh, so So, anything that you make a joke Actually, Ezekiel makes jokes about dick size. So, what's the intention there?

[00:01:28]All right. We'll see you.

[00:01:29]>> [laughter] >> We've uh It's been what? 30 seconds and you already broke the uh we'll be PG promise.

[00:01:34]>> Okay. Okay. Sorry. Starting Starting now. Starting now.

[00:01:38]>> talks about it, it's PG.

[00:01:40]If the Bible talks about it, it's PG.

[00:01:42]That's Yeah, I don't think so. Not everything in the Bible is meant for small children. Not everything in the Bible is really meant to be read by everyone or a child or or or not.

[00:01:55]I mean, can you can you talk about about adult issues in a in a mature way?

[00:02:00]This is coming from the guy who's criticizing my curtain of all things.

[00:02:04]My curtain for not being trad enough?

[00:02:07]Yeah, I mean, it looks like it looks like you're streaming from your bathroom, dude. So, yeah, I'm going to talk I'm going to joke about your shower.

[00:02:13]>> I'll have you know that I inherited this curtain from the prior tenants that I took over the sublease.

[00:02:19]And >> [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. And I'm such a trad man that I don't Nobody cares about Nobody cares about your curtain. I don't spend time going out and buying a new curtain to put up there. So, I just leave it as it is.

[00:02:29]>> Oh, so you're that trad. Oh, that's >> Yes, that's how trad I am. That's badass, dude. All right, so so bring all your problems that you have with me.

[00:02:36]Bring them to the table, bro. Well, Jay, I mean, my problems are outlined in that video. I first of all, I want to clear up something that >> not going to we're not going to do your 48-minute video. We're going to do it one-to-one. Yeah, okay. Well, you're going to let me talk. If you keep interrupting me, and I mean, what's the point of this? So, my video there was not to get a debate between me and you, though, you know, I won't back away from that if that has to happen. My video was about you know, I was I've talked with Jay Dyer and he said he hadn't debated you, which you had said in multiple places. And you've been running your mouth on Twitter and everywhere, just running down the Catholic Church, saying no one can debate you. You can't find anyone who's willing to debate you.

[00:03:15]Um and talking about how you have debated Jay Dyer, and he said he he didn't do that. And also, I mean, and you're ignoring the big the thousand-pound elephant in the room, which is the Diamond Brothers, the most family monastery, who are Not ignoring like the the biggest apologetics debaters out there on YouTube, anyway.

[00:03:31]So, you know, >> No, they're not. There there are countless atheists, countless reform sites that are way bigger than them.

[00:03:37]They're not the biggest. So, so okay.

[00:03:39]>> of Roman Catholicism, the Roman Catholicism are >> no, they're not in the realm of Roman Catholicism. They're they're only in the realm of They're only in the realm of sedevacantism.

[00:03:47]Only in the realm of sedevacantism, which is a tiny thing. So, hold on. Let me address the first thing. So, first of all, I years ago I went to hear Jerry Matatics do a talk in Memphis. I was very good on very good terms with Jerry.

[00:04:00]Jerry knows who I am unless you didn't mention the right name or something. I don't know, but Jerry knows who I am.

[00:04:06]So, I actually called Jerry today. I emailed Jerry today. We're going to set something up if he's willing to do it.

[00:04:12]Now, when that happened >> you called him, did you leave a message or did you actually talk with him? No, I left him Well, no, I called and I got his answering machine. So, then I sent him an email. Okay. So, number one, let's get something straight. Like, I'm not a Do you think that if I go on Andy's show and I debate JF and I debate Robert Taylor in front of an audience with four, five, six thousand people live and then those shows get seen by 50, 60, 70,000 people, do you think first of all that I'm scared of debating someone in the Catholic realm? So, first of all, no, okay? Well, there's a distinction to be made about that. Let me finish. I'm going to address >> them about Roman Catholicism?

[00:04:52]>> to address I'm going to address each point, okay? So, when it comes to Nick, you talked about that I debated little Nick.

[00:04:58]Nick is who wanted to debate me, okay? I asked E. Michael Jones. That is public I can show you the tweets if you want to see. I can show you the comments where E. Michael Jones says he wasn't interested in doing a debate, okay?

[00:05:11]>> Yeah, well, obviously because he's Vatican II. The Vatican II has They have no problem with >> Hold on. We're going to get to that.

[00:05:16]We're going to get to that.

[00:05:17]>> Vatican II thinks Orthodoxy is just fine. They would probably rather be Orthodox, you That's not I'm saying what I'm saying is that I I've I've I've appealed to a broad spectrum of the Catholic world to to try to do debates, okay? So, I I asked >> but but E. Michael Jones would not give you an aggressive debate because he doesn't really have a fundamental problem with the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. But you know the Diamond Brothers do have >> I'm going to get to that. I'm going to get to that when I address each one of these people, okay? Yeah. So, next I asked Michael Hoffman. Michael Hoffman who is borderline sedevacantist, maybe SSPX, he's not sure.

[00:05:53]He wasn't [clears throat] interested in coming on and doing a debate, okay?

[00:05:57]So, now I then I went to Novus Ordo Watch, okay? I asked them, would they like to come on and do a debate? No, they weren't interested, okay? Right.

[00:06:05]Now, it was brought up about the Diamond Brothers. You brought this up, I think, a while back on Twitter.

[00:06:11]And what I said was that I had an exchange with them. I didn't say it was a public debate. I said I had an exchange with them, which was done by email, and I also talked to them on the phone, okay?

[00:06:20]Now, when it was mentioned about doing a debate, the response that I got from other people on Twitter, and it may have been you, I don't recall, it was a while back, was Jay is an evil fornicator, uh and he doesn't deserve to be talked to or something like something of that So, so from my vantage point, if I'm going to enter into a debate, and for example, I'd love to debate Jerry. Jerry's a as far as I know, a great guy. We've had a fine relationship in the past.

[00:06:47]Uh I know that Jerry's not going to come at me with an ad hominem and immediately trying to poison the well about my character, which isn't I mean, Jay Eff didn't do that. No none of the Robert Robert Taylor doesn't do that.

[00:06:59]>> the Diamond Brothers or or myself? That came from you. Who are you accusing It was either you or or who Somebody responded on Twitter. I don't recall who >> About the fornicating thing? I That was not me, no. That's not me. Okay, but >> And the way I read I saw that tweet, and the way I read that was it came from the Diamond Brothers. It's Okay, but I don't know. And that's my point. My point Well, no, no, the point was that you you said I I only heard that from you, and it sounded like you were saying that you had personally been called an evil fornicator by the Diamond Brothers. But you're saying that never happened. I don't know who sent the tweet, because this was like a month ago. And so so I'm saying, when I don't want to debate somebody like that, it's not because I'm scared, it's because I already know that it's not going to be a debate based around goodwill.

[00:07:42]Because But you see but you we haven't established that we haven't we haven't established that the Diamond Brothers poisoned any well or used any ad hominem against you. Okay.

[00:07:53]Okay, do you do you think that if I if I felt if I said oh 10 years ago I think you did something you you might have done something wrong. So that guy is a complete piece of [ __ ] right?

[00:08:05]But did the Diamond Brothers have they written you off? Do you know for a fact that they are Okay, I don't I don't interact directly with these people. So all I can go with is what was on Twitter, what was sent to me, what people have told me because I'm not interested in people who intentionally want to poison the well. So what I'm hearing here what I'm hearing here is that you saw someone on Twitter call you an evil fornicator and you assume that this person this person said that is in the orbit of the Diamond Brothers and therefore the Diamond Brothers called you an evil fornicator and therefore you don't want to debate them.

[00:08:36]But that doesn't follow.

[00:08:38]You don't know that the Diamond Brothers called you an evil fornicator and you don't know that they would do that. But if this is this is coming to me from their followers, so why would I be interested in that kind of a debate? Now hold on. Hold on. You want me to read the kind of stuff I'm getting from your followers? You know uh I don't know. There's all kinds of nasty memes and stuff coming up. You know, I'm just a a working schmuck and I come home from work and I got all this uh you know >> are you trying to talk a bunch of crap, dude? Why are you trying to call me out like I don't like I'm afraid of debating? You've debated nobody. Right.

[00:09:08]>> You're not even in the picture except to be a dude trying to call me out. No, well, yes and I get what I I got what I wanted. I have accomplished my goal. My goal is not this, but this is happening.

[00:09:20]My goal and I'll do this as a So your goal your goal is to talk crap for other people.

[00:09:27]Which is a complete wuss move, dude. You can't do it yourself.

[00:09:31]>> hey, if I sat back just watching Warski's stream and keep my mouth shut, there wouldn't be this potential debate with you and Jerry Matatics, which sounds like it possibly could happen now. Okay, but you don't have to arrange a debate this way, and I also don't want you and other people representing me to other people. Can you understand that?

[00:09:49]Like Like if you If you are a public figure, if you have a book deal, if you have a TV deal, do you understand the problems of another person going out and trying to say, "I'm going to represent you to set up debates." That's completely stupid and unprofessional.

[00:10:04]>> man. I never did that. You're making it sound like I'm committing identity theft or something. I published a public video criticizing your public comments.

[00:10:12]>> You just said you tried to set up these debates.

[00:10:15]I indirectly by putting this video on on YouTube.

[00:10:19]>> indirectly?

[00:10:20]Yeah, do you Do you Do you understand the legalities that are involved in that?

[00:10:24]>> I did not call up anyone and say, "Hey, I represent Jay Dyer."

[00:10:28]>> have to call them up, dummy.

[00:10:31]You didn't email them? What are you getting at?

[00:10:33]>> how the public sphere works?

[00:10:35]How the public sphere Why don't you tell me, Jay? Yeah, so you're trying to set up debates, indirectly get stuff going, and you This is without direct interacting with me in a professional way.

[00:10:46]I did interact with you in a professional way. This is No, YOU DIDN'T.

[00:10:49]>> WATCH THIS >> YOU MADE YOUR [ __ ] VIDEOS. That's how you interacted with me. You tried to call me out on YouTube. That's how you interacted.

[00:10:56]>> this. No, this is ridiculous. If you If anyone If anyone watches this video, they will see that one of the things in the video that I cite in the video, that was a reason for making the video, was that back in February, I sent you a super chat. I sent you a super chat asking you to debate Jerry Matatics or the Diamond Brothers, and you blocked me.

[00:11:15]Yeah, I blocked you because that's >> tried I tried to do it your way. I tried to do it your way, and you blocked me.

[00:11:21]>> That's not all you did.

[00:11:23]That's not all you did. You tried to call me out. You started posting these long comments about fringe stuff that nobody knows about. All you All you to do was ask me one-on-one, dude.

[00:11:32]You don't You don't do that kind of stuff in the public sphere out on a professional level.

[00:11:38]It's that simple. All you would have And so, yes, I'm going I will debate Jerry Matatics, okay? But this is dumb of you to go about it this way. And all you wanted was attention. You got it. Jay, look at your Anyone can look at your YouTube stream. It's full of criticisms and harsh criticisms of all kinds of other thinkers No, it's not. No, it's not. I've done a critique Listen, I've done a critique of Jordan Peterson. I've done a critique I've done a critique of like two or three other people.

[00:12:05]Most of my content is not critiques.

[00:12:07]It's not any of that.

[00:12:09]And again, don't you think if I if I arrange public debates with prominent people, don't you think I know how to do this?

[00:12:16]Like, why did you think this would be the way to go about it?

[00:12:19]Because I I saw that you had been >> contact me. You You tried it publicly, [snorts] and you tried to call me out, and you got what you wanted.

[00:12:28]Uh-huh. All right.

[00:12:30]I think I think anyone can Yeah.

[00:12:34]Let me ask Let's ask one question. Jay, so so how So what offended you in the way he he tried setting this up? Like, what in the messages or in the video I don't even remember. It's It's It's comments, stuff that was posted like months ago, like 6 months ago. It's >> like insulting type [ __ ] instead of >> even remember. It's just But But if somebody keeps doing this, and then they see they keep sending me dumb [ __ ] on Twitter, eventually I block these people, yeah. Because Because it's very Listen, it's very easy to just go about this in a professional way to set up a debate, isn't it, Andy? Don't we do that all the time?

[00:13:09]So what So what would you not have had a problem with me doing? Let's All you had to do was contact me one-on-one and say, "Hey, let's set up a debate." You don't have to tweet a bunch of junk at me. You don't have to talk a bunch of smack. You don't have to try to call me out on YouTube. You don't have to do any of that. By the way, the videos They're they're funny, right? That's why I wanted you to come on. Well, thank you.

[00:13:28]I appreciate that.

[00:13:30]And thanks for watching the quail video and give him a shout out to my quail.

[00:13:32]They appreciate it. I had one here to show off, but he ran away. So, what am I going to do?

[00:13:39]Let me ask okay, so aside from the the animosity from how the debates were set up, uh what do you guys have against each other?

[00:13:52]Like I don't know this dude. I don't know. I don't even >> He just tweet He tweets all the time.

[00:13:57]>> The Mark, what's your what's your uh your beef with uh with >> So, what triggered me was Well, I'm a Roman Catholic.

[00:14:04]Um and I I have followed the Diamond Brothers in in the time and I still do to an extent. There's some maybe some points of divergence there that even maybe Jay and I could could agree on about what I maybe don't follow the Diamond Brothers in full on, but there are there are some monks up in New York and they're sedevacantists.

[00:14:26]Um we've both I've communicated with them and I believe Jay has too in the past was sort of a follower. Would that be Would you turn yourself a follower of theirs or >> I interacted with them and spoke to them. Okay.

[00:14:38]>> I mean, I just said that like a minute ago. Sure, right. So, but Jay left Jay went a different path and so now he's Eastern Orthodox and he's probably the uh as far as I know, he's the most aggressive Novus Eastern Orthodox out there. They typically don't do a whole lot of um uh apologetics or you know, attack. But anyway, Jay's been really aggressively attacking the Roman Catholic Church. I'm a Roman Catholic. He's been really aggressively attacking the See of Peter.

[00:15:06]There are people out there saying, "Hey, I'm converting to Orthodoxy because of you, Jay." So, I mean, I think from my point of view, Jay Dyer is doing a lot of damage and so I figured it would be good to see him uh match wits >> place. Put me in my place. Yeah, match wits with someone like of of a you know, similar caliber. You know, I and to be fair, I I was a little rough on Nick. I shouldn't have I think actually Nick did very well um on that debate. I I think he did pretty well. I think um his problem is I think he's hobbled by Vatican II cuz he still follows Vatican II. So, I mean, if he knew Vatican II better, he would realize that he couldn't really have had that debate with you. So, I mean, it's kind of endearing that he still thinks that there's a problem with Eastern Orthodoxy, but from the Vatican II Pope's point of view, there there really isn't. Uh it's just the other lung of the church and they can both be together. But um but yeah, so >> so he's not little Nick anymore.

[00:16:03]I shouldn't have said little Nick. I Nick, if you're watching, I apologize for calling Nick little. For for all I know, he could uh What's this thing? He likes to stab people? What's I see all these stabbing memes with Nick, so uh so I don't want to get stabbed. Yeah, uh Ammar, do you think that you'd be able to to defend it?

[00:16:21]To defend uh Yeah, I mean, I I wouldn't be able to It wouldn't be the same type of debate as what you would see between uh Jay Obviously, Jay has he's read a lot and he's got some good recall skills.

[00:16:33]>> so if But it wouldn't Yeah, go ahead. If if if you can't defend the positions, it doesn't make sense for you to get around calling me a coward if I'm willing to debate you. I did not say I can't defend the positions. I can defend the positions. Uh that's what the faith is about. That's what's having a creed is about. I know what the creed is. I know what my faith is and I have to be have an answer for all men.

[00:17:00]So, I'm saying it wouldn't be the same type of interaction that there would be between Jay and Gary Jerry Matatics or Brother Brother Peter Diamond.

[00:17:09]>> but what I'm saying is when you're calling me a coward, right? That was because you wanted me to debate someone else. Okay, so do you not see like the inherent weakness in your position and your and your whole approach to this is like I'm a coward because I won't debate somebody other than you. And you're trying to call me out. That's That's weak, dude.

[00:17:26]>> Legit, the coward came from the fact that I got blocked immediately after bringing up the Diamond Brothers and I heard from other people >> you got blocked.

[00:17:34]>> And I heard from other people said the same thing to me that they said, you know, I bring up the Diamond Brothers to him and I get blocked.

[00:17:41]So, it seemed like you were avoiding the Diamond Brothers. Okay, do you Do you understand the idea of having to choose when and why and for certain reasons why you would not do a debate or you would do a debate? Like for example, I get calls to do debates all the time, right?

[00:17:57]>> Yeah, I had to go through this like 15 minutes ago where I'm like, all right, I'm just getting off work and now there's this Twitter storm about, you know, you're a coward if you don't go on this debate. So, yeah, I mean, I would not I would rather not >> but it's a different situation. I would rather have waited till Saturday or something, you know. It's a different situation though when, like you said, I do this full-time. So, in other words, all I'm saying is that I can't literally debate every single person that comes to me in a message or in a tweet that says, "Do this debate." Right? So, first of all, a debate has to be arranged and it needs to be set up in the proper way.

[00:18:28]It's not like like for example, I get messages all the time, "Debate Jordan Peterson." I don't have direct access to Jordan Peterson, so I can't >> Do you block people when they say debate Jordan Peterson? Do you just block them?

[00:18:39]That's not the reason that I blocked you as I explained last three times.

[00:18:41]>> you say Do you say, "All right, this person's asking I'm going to read the super Dude, you've already apol- You've already apologized like three times for your behavior. So, maybe that's why I blocked you because you were being an idiot and a douchebag. That's why. I don't even know what you're talking about right now.

[00:18:56]>> You just apologized for like three different things. I apologized to Nick for calling him little Nick.

[00:19:01]>> Okay. Uh you called me a coward, right?

[00:19:03]Because I wouldn't debate someone else.

[00:19:06]Because you responded in a cowardly way when you said >> talking right now. I'm not afraid of you and I'm not afraid of anything.

[00:19:13]>> and >> my challenge was not to Hey >> Your challenge was for me to debate someone else. My >> You're a wuss. You're a wuss.

[00:19:20]You're calling me a coward. That'd be like If you don't debate my my professor, you're a coward. Debate my professor, please.

[00:19:26]>> That's not how I Anyone can go watch my video.

[00:19:29]>> You're a coward. I'll do it. Anyone can go watch the original video of yours and replay the super chats. I asked you in good faith, what do you think about that?

[00:19:38]>> That's not all you did. That was not all you did.

[00:19:42]You want your suit You want your $2 super chat back? You can have it, bro.

[00:19:45]Get some new curtains in the background.

[00:19:48]Stop streaming from the Stop streaming from the shower. I'm going to be honest.

[00:19:51]Like, do you think that you asked him very politely or do you think that you might have had a tone with with how you asked?

[00:19:59]>> I can pull it up right now. I can I can read you what I wrote. I didn't I didn't do I didn't block you because of a tweet, dude. I blocked you or because of your super chat because you're annoying as [ __ ] And you you display how annoying you are. Uh-huh. Right.

[00:20:15]I got aggressive, Nick. Do you not recognize that you're annoying?

[00:20:20]Well, you Hang on, you were saying Mark? You got >> I don't know. Coming Coming from anyway.

[00:20:24]And you said aggressive, you were like what?

[00:20:28]I don't even know what what you're saying.

[00:20:30]>> to say you were about about to say I got aggressive.

[00:20:35]Yeah, I was Okay, I was going to say I got aggressive when So, I asked This whole story is I asked Jay in good faith, you know, what do you think about the Diamond Brothers regarding end times prophecy? He was doing a video on end times prophecy with what John Goodman or something?

[00:20:51]John Adams. Okay. Yeah. So, I asked I asked Jay about, you know, what do you think about the Most Holy Family Monastery regarding end times prophecy?

[00:20:58]Also, would you debate Peter Diamond or Jerry Matatics?

[00:21:05]That's what I asked.

[00:21:06]And then >> but that's not the only thing that you've done. Jay said I'm not going to name this group because I don't want to give them traction. I don't want to give them publicity." That's what I've been trying to explain to you this whole But you've got a video on your own on your own YouTube where you're you bring up Most Holy Family Monastery. You bring up how A comedy video from 8 years ago, dummy. A comedy video from 8 years ago.

[00:21:29]Jay Imagine it's the other way around.

[00:21:32]Wouldn't you consider that a bit hypocritical if if you're mocking someone but you don't really give them traction? Because I can I can come to a different position about what I think is worth giving traction to and what is worth giving my time and effort to.

[00:21:45]Uh-huh. Okay. I'm serious. When you do this as a full-time job, you will have to make those kinds of decisions. You'll have to decide when something is worth time and when something is not worth time. Right. Sure. So you can you can say that. You didn't have respect to me to say that. You didn't say, "Hey Mark, I don't have the time to debate these people."

[00:22:02]>> owe you an answer for my for what I do on my channel. I don't owe that to you.

[00:22:07]Even if you send me a $2 super chat, I don't owe you an explanation for why I'm not interested in giving that group traction.

[00:22:13]I I don't owe that to you. I don't answer to you at all whatsoever.

[00:22:18]I'm not saying that you have to answer to me. I'm just saying that you have to answer to me. You have to answer to me.

[00:22:22]You have to answer to me. You have to answer to me. You have to answer to me.

[00:22:24]You have to answer to me. You have to answer to me. You have to answer to me.

[00:22:26]You have to answer to me.

[00:22:26]>> I mean that's that's true. I mean you're speaking truth. You are you are answering to me and and you have no you have no rights or access to what I do with my time and my efforts and my energy.

[00:22:41]at all So Jay >> Yeah, but I can challenge you. If you're going to run your mouth and talk about how no you say I can't find I can't find anyone to debate me. I can't find anyone to debate me. No Catholic will debate me. They're all scared. They're all You call them virgins, too. You call them mock trad virgins. Yeah, but look at how you act, dude. You're like mega freaking beta, dude.

[00:23:02]Mega beta, okay. Is this is this really Christian?

[00:23:04]>> show rage in our >> put yourself out there.

[00:23:10]Uh what's that hand motion supposed to mean there? What are we doing? Um you put yourself out there as a >> joke? theologian >> dude.

[00:23:19]You put yourself out there as this theologian, you're proselytizing orthodoxy, and yet you're mocking people on the other hand for being trad virgins.

[00:23:27]Yeah.

[00:23:27]>> Uh isn't that the whole uh uh >> because you're weak.

[00:23:30]And you display your weakness.

[00:23:32]So, a virgin is >> watch your videos and see your weakness.

[00:23:36]So, you're saying a virgin is weak?

[00:23:39]You are weak. I'm weak, okay. What does uh Jesus Christ say about virginity in the gospels?

[00:23:45]Well, Jesus Christ is also also the author of masculinity, and not everybody is called to virginity. It is are they?

[00:23:52]No.

[00:23:53]Right, but who has the better insight into theological matters? Who's the one that recognized Christ on the beach when they were fishing on the boat? It was the virgin, St. John. He's the one that recognizes Christ because he's pure.

[00:24:05]And he's also the one who doesn't get martyred. He doesn't get uh killed. Do you know what prelest is?

[00:24:11]No. No. I know you I don't know the I don't know the word, so give me the word. What's the >> now you look that up, that's your homework. My homework? Okay, yeah.

[00:24:20]Right.

[00:24:22]Now, but see what you don't understand is that when you come after people for what they do as a job, as a profession, like there's consequences for that, and you don't represent me to other people publicly for setting up a debate.

[00:24:34]And eventually that can be a legal situation, okay?

[00:24:37]>> Hey, no, you are No, other people have done >> do that. Other people have done this that I've shut down legally, okay? But I haven't done So, you're like you're trying to create associations in the mind of the audience that I did something that I didn't do. And that's getting >> to set up a debate, and you just earlier said that you did it. Well, I did it indirectly. I did it indirectly.

[00:24:56]I made a video. I put something out there. You said you're in contact with you're in you're in you're in contact with this group, right?

[00:25:03]With Most Holy Family Monastery? Uh I haven't talked with them in like 3 or 4 years or so. I was going to specifically trying to keep myself separate so I wasn't acting as a representate representative for them. I was going to wait until if I got any kind of you know, response from you that you were willing to do it, then I would see if they would do it. I'm a little afraid that they would probably not do it because of uh reasons.

[00:25:30]You know, I don't think that they would want to be, you know, they wouldn't want it to be necessarily a big shouting match. They they'd probably have to be formatted correctly and uh wouldn't be on the Warski stream probably.

[00:25:41]Cuz we do No offense I feel sorry for you, honestly.

[00:25:46]I feel sorry for you. Why wouldn't it be here? Why wouldn't it be here?

[00:25:50]Well, these are monks up in a you know, in a monastery. The it's two guys in in a mobile home in a double wide. Uh on his own. I'll be nice. I'll be doing like yo, what up monks? How you doing?

[00:26:02]Amen.

[00:26:03]Well, maybe it could work. I don't you know, who knows? Maybe maybe it could work. But I mean Jay, that's another thing that was kind of You are the most delusional dude I've met. This is just >> triggering.

[00:26:12]This extreme soy prelest on your part is the most just unbelievable. Soy prelest, okay. So um This is another triggering thing was mocking them because of their humble dwellings.

[00:26:24]>> see your weakness is that all this triggered you. Do you do you see how Yeah, I'm going to mock them because they present themselves as if as this organization that's a an actual monastery and it's two dudes in a trailer.

[00:26:38]I mean um That's that's not that's not real, dude.

[00:26:41]Monastery Do you know how do you know how operations work? Like do you know how fronts and these kinds of things work? Do you know about wandering bishops and how that works in the intelligence community?

[00:26:51]I know about how monks can live in caves, they can live in tombs, they can stand on top of pillars, they can have all kinds of abodes and dwellings, Jay.

[00:27:01]But that's for 2 weeks.

[00:27:03]I mean, would you rather that they had like a $30,000 watch?

[00:27:06]>> top of Can they live on top of a double-wide or should they not do that?

[00:27:10]>> Hey, would you rather they have they wear expensive watches like Patriarch Kirill and, you know, live wherever he lives?

[00:27:17]So So you think that an argument from from a New York Times article is a good argument against Orthodoxy because because the patriarch has a a nice watch. You think that's good? I I don't know the source of that, but I think everyone understands it's true.

[00:27:33]Mhm. They had it airbrushed off of a picture.

[00:27:36]What about What about the Vatican? Is there What about the Vatican bank being run by the Rothschilds since the 1700s?

[00:27:43]I hear that claimed a lot. I'd be interested to hear more data details about it.

[00:27:47]>> easily verifiable. You could You could use Google and look that up.

[00:27:52]All right. Well, yeah, if I have time, I'll read into that. I mean, I'm not trying to defend >> it's funny that you didn't already know about that, but you know, you're ready to talk a lot of smack about the Vatican and and who who who displays their wealth.

[00:28:08]Right. Well, I mean, the Vatican the wealth is displayed in public buildings and >> I'm talking about the Vatican bank, dude.

[00:28:16]Does the Vatican bank display wealth ostentatiously? No, they're a giant usurious corrupt institution that has been run by the Rothschilds since the 1700s publicly.

[00:28:27]Publicly run by the Rothschilds.

[00:28:30]Yeah, I don't I I'm not up to snuff on the Rothschilds.

[00:28:34]>> don't know about it. I know.

[00:28:36]And I didn't come on here to discuss it.

[00:28:38]Yeah, because because you would get smashed.

[00:28:42]Hey, if I read up on it enough, I don't know that I'd get smashed, Um, I don't know anything about this. So, I mean, there's a lot of things I don't know anything about that you could smash me on.

[00:28:51]>> So, why are you trying to Why are you trying >> this is PG. This is PG. Please don't go in that direction.

[00:28:58]>> [laughter] >> Uh-huh.

[00:29:03]Is it Jay, what is Jay, I'm curious I'm curious So, here's what Look, you're going to get you're going to get your Matt Dillahunty debate. So, how's that?

[00:29:11]That sounds good. Um If If Jerry If Jerry responds, if he'll do it, I'll do it. If he'll do it. Would you do it if I the Diamonds You know, if I turn out to the Diamonds and I start communicating with them and they said that they would do it, would you do it? No, and the reason that I wouldn't is because from the outset already get the impression that it's not going to be a situation of goodwill.

[00:29:30]And I would be willing to debate anybody who came at me with goodwill, even people who are or very vehemently opposed to what I do and what I talk about. I mean, I will debate atheists, I will debate pagans. I've got some stuff coming out with like neo-pagan type things, maybe debate with a couple of those guys. So, I'm always open to debating people who disagree and I'm I'm not worried about how big their channel is. Um, I I think Jerry's a tremendous scholar. I think I have a lot of respect for him as a thinker. I'd be more than happy to to have as long of a debate as Jerry wants on whatever terms Jerry wants because I actually have respect for him. He's always treated me well.

[00:30:07]He's a a a, you know, knowledgeable set of a contest.

[00:30:11]I'd be glad to to have whatever kind of discussions with Jerry. Um, but there are other groups that No, I'm not interested in interacting with just because the the the way that that they've interacted with me I've gotten to the point where I've finally decided I'm not interested in that group anymore or interacting with that group anymore.

[00:30:30]It has nothing to do with fear. It's just a decision of what's best for me and my work in my own interest.

[00:30:38]So, what do you think about Have you seen the Diamond Brothers' latest video on Orthodoxy? I have. What So in my takeaway, the core arguments were the the kind of navel gazing thing, the essence versus energy distinction, the uncreated light being separate from the essence of God. Do you Did any of that move you at all? That the fact that it makes The argument seems strong >> these are these are a polytheist being.

[00:31:05]>> Okay, these are things that I've dealt with for 10 years that I have multiple essays and multiple videos explicitly covering and I have multiple book recommendations covering in detail.

[00:31:16]Now, I would be willing to to go through every one of those points with you and I will pull out the church fathers. I will go through every single claim. I will pull out the Summa. I will pull out Denzinger. I will pull out all of the sources of Catholic dogma and we can go through every bit of that. Hey, let's If you want. Let's let's table all that and let's just tell me how Tell me where in scripture we've got this uncreated light and essence energy distinction. Okay, first of all, I have a video about the theophanies, okay?

[00:31:46]I have a video talking about the theophanies and how the theophanies are possible in the Old Testament. Now, I don't think this is going to go over too well with Andy's audience. It's not going to be that interesting, but I'm happy to talk about it. So in in my videos where I discuss the theophanies, in my essay where I talk about the theophanies and the descent of Christ and his resurrection, I explain how it is that Augustine in book three of On the Trinity first questioned the notion of how that could be the pre-incarnate Logos appearing as the angel of the Lord. Now, the Eastern fathers unanimously teach that that's the angel that that angel of the Lord is the Logos.

[00:32:21]And they taught that because they thought that it was possible for God to appear within time and space in reality.

[00:32:27]Now, the question is how is that possible? Well, it's possible because there's a distinction, not a separation.

[00:32:34]So right right there you you violated the thing that St. John of Damascus talks about in on the Orthodox faith, his famous book, where he defends the essence energy distinction with precision. And he says, "We do not believe the distinction means separation." One way to prove that is that you yourself believe that the persons in in the Trinity are distinct, and yet you don't believe they're separate. So, you you're supposed to believe in a real distinction that does not imply composition, division, or separation. And so, in the same way, the actions of God are not the same as the essence of God. They come from and proceed from and emanate from him in an in a in terms of his nature, but they're not the exact same thing as his essence.

[00:33:14]And one easy way to show this is that the act of creating the world is not the same thing as the divine essence. If the act of creating the world, which is what Aquinas says, actus purus, if it's the exact same thing as the as creating the world, then then creation was not a free action, it was a determined emanation of God's essence. That's Neoplatonism. Now, if you read Origen, you'll find that Origen taught that the essence of God is the same thing as the names of God and the actions and the attributes of God in a strict identification. This is sometimes called the Origenist problematic. Now, when you read the the the refutation of this from uh St. Gregory of Nyssa in Against Eunomius, which is a thousand-page book dedicated to this topic, St. St. Gregory of Nyssa explains in detail over a span of a thousand pages why the energies of God are not the same thing as the essence of God, and this is because it leads to modalism.

[00:34:07]Modalism is refuted in in St. Gregory's uh uh uh uh uh great essay, his great tome there, as well as St. Basil's uh uh articles and essays, espe- specifically his his epistle, I think it's 214, which is dedicated to proving the essence energy distinction. So, this is a very very clear teaching. And you want to know where it is in scripture? Paul says, uh in the New Testament, that the Spirit gives gifts differing Lee, and the word that he uses there is energeia. The operations of the Spirit are even distinct from the hypostasis of God.

[00:34:37]These are all New Testament Greek terms.

[00:34:39]So, I'm not throwing things at you. I'm throwing at you actual terms used Greek terms in the New Testament. Energeia is used multiple times in the New Testament by Paul, and it refers to the actions distinct from the hypostasis or the person in Greek, okay? So, this is all out of the New Testament. There's a book that you should read. I recommend to you right now. It's called Aristotle East and West by David Bradshaw, and he covers this this in detail in a simple readable book. So, if that's what you want solved, you can read that book.

[00:35:10]So, okay, I can look into that, and I It's interesting, but I feel like this is all semantical because um >> semantical. I just gave you a bunch of scriptural references and and citations directly from the Church Fathers. Are you aware Are you aware that the Sixth Council dogmatizes the essence energy distinction in Pope Agatho's letter where he talks about the two energies distinct from Christ's two natures and wills?

[00:35:32]The two energies distinct from from Wait. Is this the the Monothelite controversy?

[00:35:39]>> Yes. So, one operation versus two operations?

[00:35:41]>> Correct. Okay.

[00:35:43]>> that Do you know what book convinced the council?

[00:35:47]Uh no, I don't. Tell me. St. Maximus's debate with Pyrrhus, the Monothelite.

[00:35:52]And that entire book, which is about 150 pages, 120 pages, is about the essence energy distinction particularly in relationship to the two natures in Christ.

[00:36:02]So, what about um something I just read the other day. I was reading Exodus again, and they talk about the law given, you know, by God or written by the finger of God given to Moses, and it it references They have a little commentary I'm reading the original Dewey Rheims. It's like a project to go through the original 16 1585 one or whatever or 1610 one, but they say Galatians 3, and it talks about how angels were the mediators delivering the law. So, instead of these theophanies I just covered it in a talk. Well, I mean, so instead of this energy stuff, it could just be creatures that are angels of God. And it In multiple places in scripture, there is a time where it talks about God appeared to so-and-so, and then later on in a retelling, they talk about the angel of God appeared to so-and-so. So, it's just like a shorthand for, you know, instead of going through the rigor moral of saying, "Hey, the angel appeared The Dewey Ring right you The Dewey Ring says that because it's following the traditional Catholic and Augustinian view of those texts. But the problem is that that no, it it In all of the other church fathers' writings that discuss those texts, especially if you look at something like Irenaeus' Against Heresies, he will use the pre-incarnate appearances of the Logos as the angel of the Lord as a powerful refutation against many Gnostics. Now, that's just one example. Uh this goes on in a lot of of Eastern fathers, and it's a normative patristic apologetic arguments. And Athanasius uses it as as a way to show that the Logos was worshipped as the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament against the Arians. He finds this as a as a very powerful argument against them. Now, granted, one could say, "Well, that's just a bunch of different Eastern fathers having that opinion."

[00:37:39]But what I'm getting at is a different point, which is that that's just one example of of why the essence-energy distinction is very clear in scripture is because of the the the face-to-face relationship that we read about with Moses. So, for example, the text in Exodus says two things. It says that they needed a mediator between God, and it also says that Moses talked to God face-to-face. But then when Moses goes to God, and he says, "Show me who you are face-to-face," God says, "If anyone looks upon me, he'll die. So, I'm going to show you my goodness." So, he shows He shows Moses one of his divine attributes or energies, his goodness. He doesn't show him his face-to-face, strictly speaking, in the same degree that what we experience in the New Testament in Christ. So, Paul in 2nd Corinthians 3 says that we see Christ face to face.

[00:38:25]And so, it's like the situation with Moses, but it's even more powerful and more intense. And that's why in the Transfiguration, the rest of the Eastern fathers and everybody else, except for when this begins to be questioned and posited as created grace, and the argument for created grace is made on the basis of it being angels and not the Logos, that that face-to-face relationship that we have with Christ is the eternal glory of God that we experience. So, what they're talking about in that video, they don't even know what our position is. The The light of Mount Tabor, when Jesus is deified, is not a created light. This is the argument of the Arians.

[00:39:03]>> How do you know that? How do you know that it's not a created light? Because the light of God in the at the end of Paul's Epistle to Timothy is said to be the eternal glory of God. The light of God is the same thing as the life of God. Jesus says in John 17:1-5 that he came to give his apostles the very life that he had and glory that he has with the Father. That's not created, bro.

[00:39:24]Right, but that doesn't say that the light the shining light on Jesus when he's transfigured >> That's the glory of God. That's the the glory of God that's shown from Moses's face. It's the same glory. It's not created.

[00:39:38]So, it's the glory is God. God is the glory?

[00:39:41]>> It's the uncreated glory of God. It's one of his energies.

[00:39:46]It's one of his energies.

[00:39:49]So, you think it would be impossible for God to create glory?

[00:39:53]Correct.

[00:39:54]Because the Bible in the New Testament and many of the church fathers who especially address this talk about it as uncreated glory. Does glory have a an opposite? Is there something that's opposite to glory?

[00:40:05]Like shame? Let's Can we I'm I'm more than willing to continue this discussion, but I think that for Andy's audience in this stream, then they're probably not going to find this to be the most relevant and most interesting.

[00:40:16]But you and I, we can continue this uh anytime that you want to. I'd be glad to. All right. Yeah, I'll do that. For sure. Later in the week, Wednesday, Saturday, something like that?

[00:40:26]Uh we will be streaming Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but we can set up uh yeah, time we can discuss this during the day. That's fine.

[00:40:32]Yeah, and >> All right.

[00:40:34]I'll promote it over here, too, obviously. We'll set that up uh definitely.

[00:40:38]Uh that's quite intense.

[00:40:42]What was Andy Andy, tell me Andy, what tell me what was intense >> Just you guys just uh I mean they they like Jay seems really pissed at you.

[00:40:53]He just doesn't >> Yeah. No, I just I I mean I take The only things that I take seriously are those kinds of things.

[00:40:58]>> They basically of of of him trying to call you coward and try to set up debates, basically.

[00:41:04]That's what it seemed like, right?

[00:41:05]>> set my debates up. You can ask me privately who I want to debate.

[00:41:09]For and then and then we can be reconciled on that on that point.

[00:41:13]Hey Andy, uh has Jay ever tried to convert you to Orthodoxy? No.

[00:41:19]Okay. You're slacking uh >> Not yet. Not yet, I guess. I don't I mean I don't know Andy in personal real life. I know Andy from the shows that you've seen me on. So, I my my my position is to make my case for these different things and uh you know, people are interested, they can come to me.

[00:41:36]Well, uh I'm going to jump in then and say, Andy, you need to convert to the Roman Catholic faith um or you will burn in hell forever. So, you need to come to the Roman Catholic faith. It's a deadly serious. Outside of the church, there is no salvation.

[00:41:51]Uh that's kind of one of the reasons why I left religion was the using the fear tactics to make me believe rather than me believing.

[00:42:01]But I'll I'll I'm willing to talk about it, like definitely, in the future.

[00:42:05]>> What does fear mean it's wrong? I mean you use fear to keep people but keep dangerous things. Yeah, yeah, but but when I I don't um but when I don't believe it using the like strictly fear rather than stuff that is helping me believe it, it's not it's not fair. It's just like saying, "Hey, believe this or else you'll die in internal hell rather than show me facts that will make me believe it."

[00:42:36]Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, that's for sure. So, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of internal peace that comes with with accepting the faith, you know? I mean, this is a intimidating thing here to be I don't know what the viewer count is, but to you know, to be called out and have to as a kind of a nobody with whatever I had eight eight followers and 30 people on YouTube, my junk YouTube account. So, it was a little little intimidating to get called out onto this big stream, but you know, with the grace of Bro, you did the calling out.

[00:43:07]You did the calling out, so.

[00:43:10]Uh it's in a way, but it wasn't There's I had no one would have really known except for the handful of people who saw that video up until this point, so you know.

[00:43:22]But I'm glad I'm glad something happened and I'm glad we connected and I hope this debate continues on and I hope you listen to whatever your Catholic opponents tell you in the future and I would love to continue the discussion and I hope and pray that you come back to the Roman Catholic faith, Jay.

[00:43:38]Yeah, well, that's not going to happen, but okay.

[00:43:43]You never know.

[00:43:45]All right, well, uh I guess that's it for that.

[00:43:50]All right, I'll sign off. Thanks, Jay.

[00:43:51]>> all right, thanks, Mark. Appreciate it, man.

[00:43:53]>> Thanks for coming on.

[00:43:55]Yep.