|JKL | FUEL: WITH ALL DUE RESPECT... | PART 2

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-23

[00:00:01]News is done, business is done, sports is done, and the league is done, and Arsenal are the champions. Over to you, Jeff.

[00:00:08]>> Just so happy about that, aren't you?

[00:00:09]You're just >> Yeah, very happy.

[00:00:10]>> You're smiling like a Cheshire cat.

[00:00:12]>> Yeah, very happy.

[00:00:13]>> All right. Fuel prices not done.

[00:00:16][laughter] >> On the far end, Cornelius Chipsoy. He's the chair of the rig Owners Association.

[00:00:22]Right next to him is Kennedy K. He's the CEO of the uh Tour Guides and Drivers Association. And right next to him is Kushian Mushiri. He's a CEO, Federation of Transport, public transport sector.

[00:00:35]Right next to me, engineer Henry Edward Ken. He's a director petroleum and gas at EPRA. Before the break, we were talking about how the meeting went with the stakeholders.

[00:00:51]>> Cornelius.

[00:00:53]So um I was present up to the meeting on uh when was that the one we we took 5 hours that is the day before yesterday.

[00:01:03]That should have been Monday.

[00:01:04]>> I was present for that meeting. I wasn't present for yesterday's meeting.

[00:01:08]>> Okay.

[00:01:09]>> My two colleagues here were present.

[00:01:11]>> Monday's was a mess, wasn't it?

[00:01:13]>> I guess they would have the time to respond to that because I wasn't present and it's not fair for me to comment. Um >> Okay, Kennedy, you were there obviously.

[00:01:22]Yes. Yes.

[00:01:22]>> And then you stood behind the the CS at the press conference and you heard the CS waxing lyrical saying a deal had been struck.

[00:01:31]>> Perhaps first of all discussing the one for Friday. It actually went uh Monday that meeting went very well.

[00:01:37]>> But >> as far as I'm >> but the outcome was terrible >> and that is one of the things that I think we must start facing the reality as Kenyans.

[00:01:46]Five hours of discussions. Surely we must all honor our part of the discussion.

[00:01:53]>> Were you discussing lowering prices?

[00:01:55]>> Yes.

[00:01:56]>> And the PS agreed or the stakeholders agreed.

[00:02:00]>> So the first part was the offer that was placed on the table.

[00:02:05]>> What was the offer?

[00:02:06]>> The 10.

[00:02:07]>> So somewhere between eight >> and 10 shillings. That's Kennedy.

[00:02:11]>> That was struck already.

[00:02:12]>> Kennedy you at the meeting.

[00:02:14]>> The first meeting and the second meeting. Yes.

[00:02:16]>> The second meeting >> they actually called me to take a bord wherever I was very fast.

[00:02:25]>> By the time I arrived final resolution, final remarks.

[00:02:30]>> So you missed it.

[00:02:31]>> I missed it.

[00:02:32]>> The first meeting discussed nin.

[00:02:35]>> So maybe Jeff I've been present in all these meetings from the inception. Maybe I can give a a chronology of events.

[00:02:43]>> Okay. So uh let's start Friday after we got the news of the uh price uh the fuel price hike and uh we we were shocked obviously this is the highest hike we've ever had in Kenya and uh as the federation of public transport sector we quickly assembled uh and discussed the fuel hike And one of the things we did obviously was to try to reach out to government so that we can get an explanation which did not bear uh fruit. But I would like to be very categorical in saying this, Jeff. This is the first time that in all the years that I've been the CEO of the federation and since I joined the association, that would be in 2018 that we've had a minister of transport who doesn't meet the transport stakeholders.

[00:03:47]uh we've been there with uh the min the ministers of transport during the wur regime. We've had uh the CS Murcommen who was with us at any given point and would call us and he was even ahead of us in some of the issues. We would even ask him if he's part of the MATU PSV industry. So um I would be telling the truth if I said if we had a minister of transport who was in constant engagement with the industry we will not be here. We are here because we did not have a minister whom we can talk and engage and who would have sorted this issue before it spiraled out of control.

[00:04:35]So I think on part of government the minister of transport failed us in that bit. So when we sat and tried to reach other people because we are not able to reach our minister for transport >> and we've tried actually one day we even had to corner him at an event at KICC as leaders >> and he gave us his PA to organize a meeting and uh when the the PA just vanished on us. Oh, talk about CS Davis Church.

[00:05:06]>> Yeah, that is Davis.

[00:05:07]>> He's been accused of having what?

[00:05:09]>> Actually, we were shocked when we saw him addressing the strike for for for the JK >> because we thought the guy doesn't deal with anybody in transport >> and you think that's how bad >> you think it's a stumbling block. You think this is a issue that >> I'm telling you if Mulcommen was still the CS for transport this strike would not have happened >> because Mcommen knew all the leaders not Christian as the CEO of the federation but every leader in our sector he would call us when there was something and quickly would assemble and it will be sorted out. So >> you're saying this man has a hands-off approach.

[00:05:47]>> I'm telling you it's difficult.

[00:05:50]We have so many things that are pending, things that have been approved, things that we've gone for that when we were dealing with the CS Mukmen were passed, but now they're just hanging there and we have no way of reaching our minister so that they implemented and as an industry we are seriously suffering.

[00:06:06]>> Yeah. So that now with that uh having having that in mind when we went and sat and we knew we could not rely on our minister we started approaching other leaders in government to help us sort a transport issue.

[00:06:22]>> Yeah engineer hold on engineer were you at the meetings?

[00:06:26]>> Yes Jeff.

[00:06:27]>> Who else who else was represented? I I did participate in the meeting on Monday and I have to say that uh the chair of that meeting was actually our CS for roads and transport Mr. Davis Chin.

[00:06:39]>> He was there.

[00:06:39]>> He was there and then we had actually three CSS in that meeting. We had uh CS roads and transport, we had CS energy and petroleum and we had CS uh uh national treasury and economic planning.

[00:06:52]And this was also a follow-up meeting to another meeting they had on Sunday night. They actually left very late on Saturday night trying to look at uh ways of dealing with the crisis that >> so was there.

[00:07:04]>> Yes sir.

[00:07:05]>> Wai was there and Chir was there.

[00:07:07]>> They were there >> and other stakeholders.

[00:07:08]>> Yeah. And ourselves you were there. We had [clears throat] NTSA was there. We had Kenya roads board was there.

[00:07:14]>> So it was a whole interministerial government approach. Uh because uh when we are in such a scenario I think it's good to listen to our stakeholders. I think government has shown goodwill because uh this crisis uh just came uh abruptly in the last 2 months and of course nobody would have uh preceded that prices would have gone to where they are.

[00:07:37]>> Yeah. Who who shared the meeting?

[00:07:39]>> It was chaired by CS roads and transport.

[00:07:41]>> How come it looked like Dennis Tumbi would had taken hold of the whole entire was he running the show?

[00:07:45]>> Jeff that's why coming. So when we couldn't reach our minister and obviously we knew he wouldn't be reachable anyway uh we tried to reach out to Dennis and that's where he came in lastly and when we reached out to him he told us let give me when uh he was okay we first had a meeting at 2 on Sunday when nobody was reaching out to us when we had the meeting the leaders decided that uh now that the government is nonresponsive and we issued a strike notice on Friday then on Monday let's just wake up put all our vehicles all the commercial vehicles 500,000 on them on the roads let's occupy the roads and it was upon that that I received a call from Dennis it were just praying about to leave when I re received the call obvious. I excuse I excused myself, got out and talked to him and he told me I understand what's happening and I've talked to the CS Davis such he's on his way. I've talked to Opio and I I've talked to CS Bandi and uh they are on their way. So can we meet at around 6:00 at the Trascom?

[00:09:12]And I was like okay just give me a minute cuz we have already ended the meeting and people are about to leave.

[00:09:19]So I go back to the meeting we have over 60 uh heads there heads of the associations plus heads of Nairobi circles represented and I tell them okay I know this was the decision but government has finally reached out through the special programs uh h uh Mr. Dennis Situmbi, head of special programs and digital >> and digital e economy or something and he's asking us not to disperse cuz I told him we are dispassing but meet all the people that we want to meet and have a discussion and I can tell you I had a difficult time because by then people were like hey they have not called us on Friday Saturday now Sunday at 6:00 they want to see us they want to lock us up because tomorrow is a strike.

[00:10:14]>> Yeah.

[00:10:14]>> And when it became impossible, I called him and told him it's impossible. And Dennis really pleaded and said, "Now that we've reached out, just know that we will solve whatever issue we have, but put your guy just convince your people not to broke the roads." Now, I wondered how we knew we were going to broke the roads cuz we have just finished the meeting. M >> obviously someone in there told him >> someone So I was even asking are we having investors that are from NSIS or what?

[00:10:48]>> So just plead with them not to block the roads cuz we have heard your cry and we want to sort it. If you can't come then come tomorrow but let the people that want to use the road use the roads. And we had to spend another 1 hour trying to convince our members here, the three of us here, trying to convince our members, please, let's just leave the roads open.

[00:11:17]Let's go listen now that government has seen how serious we were. And that's how we arrived at uh all the vehicles stay at home.

[00:11:27]>> And I called Dennis and told him, "Okay, we've had you. We will not block the roads. we will come. Give us the time and place.

[00:11:36]>> Cons, do you agree with this?

[00:11:38][sighs and gasps] >> Okay. I I I really didn't talk to it. He did. But my point is, Jeff, I don't want us to lose uh the logic of this thing.

[00:11:48]At the end of the day, we're here >> and uh we have the man of the day here who supposed to tell us what really happened.

[00:11:57]>> You see, Jeff wants to know the chronology. Now, we just finished Friday. Now we are coming to Monday which I'm the one that was there.

[00:12:05]>> Yes.

[00:12:05]>> So on Monday we go to the meeting.

[00:12:09]>> Uh we find treasure.

[00:12:11]>> The strike was on.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah. The tri strike is on but we've kept the vehicles at home as requested by Tumbi on behalf of Opio and I Bandandy and Chir because they refused to see him on Sunday. So when the strike started we observed how it was going and it was 99% successful and at that point uh we were called to transcom and we all went there and we even carried not only the association leaders but also the other associations the rigs and he we invited everyone to come for the meeting >> and that's when the 5hour discussion started >> and when we started they started by offering us uh they started by taking us through a trading program of how the fuel is imported.

[00:13:01]>> Okay.

[00:13:02]>> Through our engineer >> counter you were there.

[00:13:06]>> I came later.

[00:13:06]>> No, the the Monday meeting.

[00:13:08]>> Yes.

[00:13:08]>> The Monday meeting. I came late.

[00:13:11]>> He came late. That's why I'm giving you how it went. The meeting.

[00:13:14]>> So he took us through he took us through how fuel is imported, what government takes at what level and for what. And then after that now they told us the only thing we are able to get for now is eight shillings. We we deliberated about the eight shillings for another more than 1 hour and then they retreated retreated a second time and now they came with an offer of 10 which they told us now it's take it >> or just give us two three days to come and agree on this. So when that deosition or the de debate of the 10 shillings became too hot we moved now to the adotration and on the adotration we were not going to negotiate on that because this is a thing we've gone through I think 2020 where our vehicles which were Euro3 by then were having serious injector problems and nosal problems and I remember the government then where the president now was the deputy President agreed to level the price of kerosene which is actually jet fuel with >> Okay. What was the conclusion of the meeting?

[00:14:25]>> We agreed that they will hike the price of kerosene to match the diesel although that did not happen. I rant that only that eight shillings.

[00:14:37]>> Yeah. So why did this why did the CS turn around and say you had struck a deal?

[00:14:41]>> Now now that's what we wondered. You see now we we >> yeah first of all I don't want us to concentrate too much on what occurred because >> we have to we have to have a chronology to see what happened in order to move forward we need to know >> that's the point uh Monday we could not agree after 5 hours and that's why he was saying with all due respect that isn't what we agreed and that uh we agreed that a presser will be done at the end of the meeting upon what we had agreed actually the whole point is we've been there far too long.

[00:15:14]>> Yeah.

[00:15:14]>> And uh actually with all fairness to this CEO he when the minister came in he said he has had to ask him to leave in readiness to gaset what we have agreed >> and uh >> but you had not agreed.

[00:15:27]>> That's the point. Hold on. We had not agreed on anything. We had agreed on one thing that we postponed the meeting to Wednesday which would have been today morning at 10:00. Of course, there was another meeting that was held at uh the the Ministry of Interior, which is still okay. I mean, it's part of solving uh the problem. It doesn't matter where the solution comes from.

[00:15:48]>> Yeah.

[00:15:49]>> My point is this, Jeff, we did not agree on the tenop. He cannot bear witness even though he left early and I'm sure each of us are here. But that was a gesture from government to the stakeholders who were present in the meeting. What we agreed and what we all know is we agreed to meet again because the minister at some point said please remember we don't have to agree tonight.

[00:16:11]I mean everybody's tired. We did this and I I remember him talking about the Muki time and he said people walked for 2 months before a solution could be found.

[00:16:20]>> Now Jeff we are here today because that problem still persists.

[00:16:25]>> It's not gone away and we cannot wish it away.

[00:16:28]>> Correct.

[00:16:29]>> And I am happy that we are here with a man from Apra.

[00:16:31]>> Yeah. Now my point is this. How long will we escape uh or run away from this problem? If you look at what happened during the well I don't know what the best terminology would be. Is it a strike? Is it a go slow or is it simply a decision of our members to withdraw their own service as far as we are concerned we are saying we cannot afford the pump price.

[00:16:56]>> Period. End of story. I'm a businessman.

[00:16:58]I must make money at the end of the day.

[00:16:59]Absolutely.

[00:17:00]>> I don't do it to charity. My members don't do charity. The matter to owners don't do charity. And the the thing is we are arguing about the pump uh price.

[00:17:09]The commuters can't afford it. As a matter of fact, if you really look at what is going on, the commuters are walking home. In fact, we were joking at another station and I was saying, you know, now everybody is going to use this idea that they're just trying to cut weight, you know, they're just trying to stay healthy. They're buying new shoes and walking home. But in truth, the real problem is they don't have uh the luxury of adjusting their computer price.

[00:17:33]>> Yeah.

[00:17:34]>> The matter to owners don't have the luxury of adjusting the computer price.

[00:17:38]The drillers don't have the luxury of adjusting their prices for their customers. And one of the things that we must agree is that this whole conversation whether at the ministry of uh transport or at the ministry of interior or as they promised at the highest office isn't about negotiating a price. If we continue talking about whether we are able to bring the price or not, whether the street of is a problem, whether the war is a problem or not, we lose a point. M >> the fact of the matter is the Kenyan cannot >> afford the luxury of paying a higher pump price.

[00:18:13]>> Absolutely.

[00:18:14]>> My point is >> Yeah. Go on.

[00:18:15]>> The man sitted with us here should carry the solution and tell us okay I mean this is my landing cost. This is your pump price. In between we have A B C D.

[00:18:27]M >> at the end of the day we are interested in a pump price that is affordable because we can no longer transfer that price to our customers.

[00:18:35]>> Absolutely. Okay. Let me get to Canada.

[00:18:36]You were late for the meeting.

[00:18:37]>> Yes.

[00:18:38]>> Right.

[00:18:38]>> Yes.

[00:18:39]>> And then >> I was in my office.

[00:18:43]>> You didn't know there was a meeting going on?

[00:18:44]>> No.

[00:18:46]>> So how did you show up then? Who told you?

[00:18:48]>> I was called.

[00:18:48]>> By whom?

[00:18:49]>> I think Ken is the one who called.

[00:18:50]>> Huh? It >> No, no, no, no.

[00:18:52]>> We have a coordinator.

[00:18:53]>> We have a coordinator.

[00:18:55]>> He called you. He called you and told me to rush very fast wherever I was.

[00:19:00]>> Okay.

[00:19:01]>> And I had to take a border border.

[00:19:03]>> And you found them finalizing everything?

[00:19:04]>> Yes. Doing the final remark.

[00:19:06]>> Did you think that CS would say what he did that you had reached a deal?

[00:19:11]>> No.

[00:19:13]>> You did. So what made you do what you did >> by >> by saying you know we >> all due respect?

[00:19:20]>> Yes. uh because something was not coming out clear.

[00:19:27]Yeah, remember we had agreed we had not reached an agreement.

[00:19:33]So we agreed that let's face the media and give a statement of post postponing the the the meeting >> to either Tuesday or Wednesday >> and the C still said they were not going to be there.

[00:19:47]>> I think that is what they said. There are other commitments basically.

[00:19:51]>> The other other commitments.

[00:19:52]>> Yeah. And you announced the strike was still on. I remember.

[00:19:55]>> Yes, I did.

[00:19:56]>> Right.

[00:19:56]>> So, Tuesday comes about and um strike continues and then there's another meeting. Right.

[00:20:02]>> Correct.

[00:20:04]>> And you came out smiling.

[00:20:06]>> I am a smiling.

[00:20:08]>> No, no, no. You weren't smiling on >> Yes. I'm a tour guide. I clients. I tourist. That is one of my hospitality.

[00:20:15]But engineer said your body language betrayed you. [laughter] >> Wow. Today [snorts] Jeff I was walking in the street are crying.

[00:20:26]>> So many motorist stopped me and the thing is brown envelope.

[00:20:35]>> In fact I was almost running away from the street.

[00:20:41]If you go to social media.

[00:20:46]>> Yeah. If you I I went to people to Okay. Okay. Not able to just between the five of us.

[00:21:13]boldiness.

[00:21:22]So what was discussed in that Tuesday meeting that made you smile so much?

[00:21:27]>> Well, uh what what touched me on Tuesday? It is the discussion which they had alreadyed because I'm from tourism sector we are gearing towards in fact for the last two days strike I'm a concerned fellow 6 months last year.

[00:22:20]>> [clears throat] >> Good Will Come Tuesday.

[00:23:20]>> [snorts] >> Okay, let's face it.

[00:23:39]But let's face it, you went from hero to zero.

[00:23:58]>> [clears throat] >> Okay.

[00:24:22]and come Tuesday engineer. Yes, >> you've heard all this.

[00:24:29]>> Yes, I have it.

[00:24:30]>> You've heard all this. There's a lot of anger very clearly >> and there's a lot of uh mistrust.

[00:24:38]>> What do you tell these people? Uh Jeff, I think first is to thank this gentleman because I think I was in that room uh for that negotiation that took almost uh 5 hours >> and it was not an easy task >> because they had their position.

[00:24:55]Government had their position. But Jeff, I think we also need to appreciate having three CSS sit in a room to listen to all these issues for 3 hours. It shows a lot of goodwill. And I can confirm to you Jeff, they were not acting alone. they're also consulting elsewhere including other CSS and including the leadership to find a solution to the crisis. Uh I think uh 10 shillings was something because uh you could as well as have gone out of the meeting with zero but I think government showed goodwill and told you we've had your plea and we can reduce this is the match we can move for today even as we look for other solutions. So uh that to me I think uh I have to thank you because they play a very critical role uh in the economy because the last two days when they on a go slow we saw a lot of paralysis and of course the economy lost quite a huge chunk of money. Uh I think what we've left now is space for dialogue because uh uh the fiscals balancing the fiscals is a wider conversation that we have to have with a wider number of stakeholders. Uh Jeff remember there are people who are also importing these petroleum products. I'll give you a good example because of what has happened and we've seen the increase of 118% increase of 126% especially for jet which also brings uh kerosin we bring it as one product jet whatever you want to uh dedicate as kerosin you get it out of jet uh and then diesel one is because um it this crisis came at the wrong time traditionally towards the end of uh towards December going up to March that is the winter season in the west. So normally these products diesel and kerosin they are used as heating oils. So the demand normally goes up during that season. So you'll find the price will normally be on an upward trade and then when this crisis happened it was in the depth of winter so it compounded it and that's why you've seen the price of diesel has more than skyrocketed than that of petrol. The reverse happens when summer comes because during summer people drive more in the west. So you'll tend to find that the demand for super petrol in the west is high and that now creates a demand supply imbalance which causes the price of super to go up. Uh of course uh as I said that uh that goodwill that government has shown uh is to ensure that uh we balance all stakeholders.

[00:27:35]There are people who are importing a cargo of uh diesel for example a whole cargo before this crisis happened was $74 million.

[00:27:46]uh because of the crisis that price has doubled. It's now 154 million.

[00:27:50]>> That's landing fees.

[00:27:51]>> That is what you'll pay as the FOB plus now the additional cost to make it the landing cost.

[00:27:57]>> Speaking of which, are there too many taxes and levies slapped on consumers at the end of the day. Road levy, this levy, that levy, this VAT, this that, the other.

[00:28:11]You know, co is not telling us why fuel is expensive in Kenya. You are taking us through.

[00:28:16]>> No, I was coming to that. I was coming to that.

[00:28:19]>> Can we narrow it down?

[00:28:20]>> I was coming to that. When your working capital moves from 74 million to 154 and you're the importer, it means you'll also have to borrow more, isn't it? Your margin has not been increased. It means you're also raiding from your margin. So as much as we have other sectors of the economy which are suffering, we have to balance and I think the negotiation because that's what we are discussing centered on the components of the price, the landed cost, um the issue of storage and distribution charges, the issues of supply margins and the issues of taxes and levies and this whole discussion because the three CSS were looking at in terms of policy and in terms of practicability what headroom do we have to reduce some of these components and I think that's why uh when the discussion was ending they said the the much we can give now without drowning other things in the economy is this much and I think I appreciate because well you said we didn't have a deal that time but the next day after another meeting you agreed to allow further dialogue and I think that's what we are continuing with to see it's very important because if we try to save one side, we might drown the other side. So it is a tough balancing act to make sure that the person bringing the product also has a breathing space.

[00:29:47]>> The person using that product also has a breathing space. Otherwise, if we don't balance the two, then we'll have the supplier being choked and we'll not have product.

[00:29:57]>> Okay, forgive me for being a little naive here, but help me understand this.

[00:30:01]VAT was raised from 8 to 16%.

[00:30:04]Yes.

[00:30:04]>> Yes.

[00:30:05]>> Finance bill 2023.

[00:30:07]>> Yeah.

[00:30:07]>> Okay. Road maintenance levy from 18 shillings >> to 25 shillings.

[00:30:13]>> Correct.

[00:30:14]>> And everything is being passed on to the consumer. Everything. Everything.

[00:30:18]Everything.

[00:30:18]>> Yeah.

[00:30:19]>> Come on guys.

[00:30:20]>> So Jeff, in terms of taxation, it's a policy and legislative matter and it all stomachs from the budget that we make depending on the priorities that we have as a country. And that's why we are saying we have many needs. We have many competing needs as a country. We have the health sector. We have the education sector. We have the agricultural sector.

[00:30:42]And all these things must be balanced.

[00:30:44]So when a budget is done, government will normally look at the revenue sources. Uh one of the gentlemen who was in the meeting was trying to compare ourselves with countries like Angola saying that the fuel price in Angola was much lower than what we have.

[00:30:59]>> But you produce oil. You see Angola is an oil producer. They're producing 2 million barrels a day. So even if we we try to compare ourselves, we are trying to ask ourselves then they have oil revenue. What about ourselves? So that balance between budget and expenditure and these are things that go before the floor of the house and public participation is done. Once they are coined on pen and paper then we have now to ask how do we balance them without uh basically drowning the these sectors.

[00:31:31]>> I want to take another break but when we come back Kushin Mashid I want to ask you Matu Owners Association have said have increased prices by 50%.

[00:31:40]50%.

[00:31:41]>> Yes.

[00:31:41]>> I mean come on again the consumer is the biggest loser. Are you going to lower the prices? Are you going to go back to normal prices?

[00:31:50]>> If the price goes down by Monday, why not?

[00:31:54]>> Okay, let's talk about that. Keep tweeting, folks. This is an interesting conversation. Are we going to lower those fuel prices or not? 10 shillings.

[00:32:03]Come on. And you say Kennedy Kunda didn't get any money. Come on.

[00:32:22]>> [laughter] >> Jeff JK live takes a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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[00:37:16]A lot of messages from folks all over the place, folks. My good friend Jackson Oles Sapit says he just fueled his car in the Masai Marup 154 shillings.

[00:37:27]>> Where is he getting the fuel?

[00:37:29]>> 154ish.

[00:37:30]10 shillings.

[00:37:31]>> Yeah. No, no, it can't. But uh we we only took down 10 shillings >> from diesel.

[00:37:37]>> Diesel. So that diesel at 154.

[00:37:39]>> Where where is he getting it?

[00:37:41]>> Masara and where has you know maybe that's the thing we need to report that matter.

[00:37:47]>> He needs to tell us where he's going.

[00:37:48]>> He needs to say where he got >> what will you do about it?

[00:37:51]>> Okay, I think I have an >> You have an idea.

[00:37:53]>> He could be getting it across the border.

[00:37:55]>> No, he's in a rock.

[00:37:58]>> Yeah, but I think the law is very clear.

[00:38:01]>> Sorry. 254.

[00:38:02]>> Oh, yes. 254.

[00:38:03]>> Then that makes sense.

[00:38:04]>> I think the law is very clear. Once a price cap has been set, you can't sell beyond it and he has evidence of where he bought it. We'll just sanction the owner of the station.

[00:38:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. We've done it before.

[00:38:15]>> This is why I'm telling you, let's discuss the gist of this matter.

[00:38:18]>> The you know this this this whether he got an envelope or he didn't get is a sideeshow. At the end of the day, >> the price on the pump is still unaffordable.

[00:38:29]>> That is the you know, we must keep their eye on the bull. So let's ask these people are they going to lower fuel prices at the pump >> and as you said it when we started the meeting you said the time is ticking.

[00:38:41]>> Yes.

[00:38:41]>> He's telling you Tuesday we are back on the road. So now the question is between the time they met with the uh the CS for interior and uh the CS for energy and uh petroleum on Monday which I was not present >> and treasury.

[00:38:58]>> He wasn't present. And I'm talking about the meeting which was held in um on [clears throat] okay for many of us we were waiting for the meeting on Wednesday but it is okay me I don't I don't really care where the solution comes from whether it comes from heaven or hell or wherever it is so long as at the end of the day this pump price is affordable for all remember what I said Jeff and this meeting started very well in fact I really like how the the Monday meeting had gone and I like the spirit and this man has a very good mean he was quiet. He was sitting across me on the table and uh I and I thought actually he was going to say something as spectacular but he kept quiet the entire time and I guess of course you know you are a regulator.

[00:39:41]You're only waiting for the people who make the policy decision to either agree to it or not. In fact, we shouldn't crucify him much because at the end of the day >> it's not for him to really decide what the price is. The question at hand >> is beyond him. And I will explain the people in the room. Uh CS Mad and by the way uh considering that he had spoken earlier before the meeting I am not surprised that he left before and I guess also is a negotiation tactic. Uh you don't keep all your cards on the table. So at least you have a reason to say let's take a break and let's discuss. But my point is h you see the commuter, the driller, the mat owner, the tour tour guy, we are not interested in having so many discussions as to how they are going to solve the crisis with regard to what they are going to remove or add or delete or multiply or discuss with the guys at the state of almost.

[00:40:43]Our point here is there is no headroom for the the commuter, the local manage, the matu owner, the driller, the the tourist guy, we don't have any headroom to accept any further price.

[00:41:00]>> And if prices are not decreased within the next 6 days, what are you going to do? Let me tell you, please remember Jeff, even as we speak, there are still many people who haven't brought their vehicles out or their machinery and equipments out to do anything. You know, that's why I'm saying this discussion is taking not here even in the country is taking a turn that is missing the point.

[00:41:24]In fact, in that meeting, you know, there's one person who has been lost, the commuter, and they had representation from an association, >> and they saying, "We don't agree with the suspension of the strike because at the end of the day, he will be forced to walk home."

[00:41:40]>> They would have preferred the strike to go on.

[00:41:42]>> Of course, everybody, even the motor, the other associations saying, "We do not agree with what went on." Now, I must speak for the regoners myself. We don't have um what in quote quote the monopoly of violence like the matu industry and the reason why I mean the attention is on the matu is because when they withdraw their vehicles the country comes to a stand >> okay and you see all these associations pts amto mat owners association with the bulk of of the vehicles when they withdraw their vehicles from the road the country comes to stars nobody's talking about the truckers in fact let me tell you The greatest irony nobody is talking about the fact that in these meetings the people who carry fuel from who load fuel from the storage to the petrol station are also striking >> and he's saying I am carrying a product that I can't afford. [snorts] >> Kennedy because there's so much jargon being discussed here >> after all said and done we are waiting for the seven days. Now it's six now five.

[00:42:53]>> We had a good will that was the goodwill which we gave out to Ni after 7 days whether the brown envelope was given to who or or or me or anybody else but I've not seen the envelope.

[00:43:13]So what we are asking we want the fuel down the commuters are suffering. I was in the street even when you you look at the vehicles they they are empty they are going to town coming out of town empty people cannot afford the commuters are crying we are affected we cannot afford another strike we are gearing towards high season tourists are coming the moment our matus the way we want to brand them because this is a priv a trans a transport sector issue we are all of us are included. We are suffering. There will be no movement. So the 7day uh uh dialogue that was our good will and we want you from where you sit. If you are not speaking for someone else the way you have said >> you are speaking for for yourself.

[00:44:07]>> Before engineer okay before engineer replies uh Christian Mushid real quick.

[00:44:11]You guys have hiked your prices 50%.

[00:44:13]>> Yes. Yes ma'am. If your ultimatum is not met by Tuesday, what happens?

[00:44:18]>> You're back to the roads. We are back to the parking.

[00:44:24]>> We'll be back to the parking >> just like that.

[00:44:26]>> Now, what what I can say is this, Jeff.

[00:44:29]You see uh when we when government finally reached out to us and gave us the 10 shilling you know as a leader you look at uh both you don't necessarily do things just to be seen as harsh and strong and what it's not about emotions. So sometimes you have to use uh input a level of wisdom of wisdom in how you deal with matters.

[00:44:59]>> Yeah. But yeah, wisdom is not hiking fees by 50%.

[00:45:03]>> Yeah.

[00:45:04]>> On the on on the on the fairs, you see, I'm saying the fairs had to go up by 50%. Because when people went and fueled their vehicles, some were left paying for the vehicles from their pocket. And you cannot sustain a a business by injecting more money to it. Yet the business itself is not giving as much in returns. So it was either the vehicle stay at home or you hike the fairs. And even after hiking the fairs, it became more difficult to operate because many people chose to stay at home.

[00:45:40]>> Many people chose to walk.

[00:45:41]>> Yeah. And so you you have high fairs and low turnout of passengers which means you're still making nothing.

[00:45:50]>> But Kenyans simply cannot afford that price.

[00:45:53]>> Exactly. And that is the reason we said that we will put a 50% in the meantime and then on Monday we will go to the streets to demand for for for action.

[00:46:05]And uh when we did that and the government came and we agreed and they gave us the 10 shillings then we couldn't agree then we went and sat again the the government came and told us guys we have a country and if we continue this we are going to lose the country trying to protect the f prices.

[00:46:26]So they told us to shing take the 10 shillings and then just give us 7 days so that we go we check where and and what mechanism we can use to see how farther down we can push we can lower the price.

[00:46:42]>> Do you trust him?

[00:46:43]>> And uh that's where Sakaja comes in because he's the only governor that has been in Nairobi that has never had a strike. All the other governors who used to strike almost now and again but during Sakaja's tener you've never seen a mat to strike because he's very hands-on and always consulting with us on anything that he's doing around the county. So we've developed that level of trust because of the numerous meetings and engagements. you call him, he'll pick up and so when he comes at the guarant we feel safe and and we know it's for real cuz everything he promised he almost delivers to the matter to industry. So you have no faith in the CS is bad wai and >> you see we don't deal with oneai anywhere >> we don't deal with bad anywhere and chir is never there for us so they had to bring somebody whom we can trust and that was >> engineer [snorts] >> and uh now we let our good >> let me finish so now when uh when the government pleaded with us to give them that time we just looked at And I would like to tell Kenyans that not every strategic retreat is betrayal.

[00:48:00]Sometimes as leaders you have to make decisions that are unpopular but in the long run they bring something. So we have 10 shillings you have to make a kuko. And I would like you to note that on Monday they gave us they gave us on Monday 10 shillings. They gazetted it but on Tuesday it was not there.

[00:48:22]What do you mean?

[00:48:23]>> So it was the pumps were still at 242.

[00:48:26]>> So when we are in that meeting, we asked we asked them why did you gazit? Why did you do all this? And there the pumps are still reading and they said you mikata.

[00:48:38]>> So we were discussing at a level of mulikata. We gazed but we've not implemented and we had to they had to call him to tell him now call vivo call who call who in our presence and make sure those prices are >> do you agree with that?

[00:48:52]>> Uh well Jeff uh after the meeting and the press conference of course we went into the mechanics of implementing whatever >> you're saying the 10 shillings he wants an answer the 10 shillings >> I'd been offered to I'm coming there. So basically we did a a press release late in the night and uh unfortunately not everybody was able to see that press release until the following morning. So some of the players were not aware that we had issued another price advisory that night and of course of course what happened it was late in the night. It was almost 12:00 in the night. So what happened question we should start asking what happened things at night at night.

[00:49:30]No, no, but but I I think I think in all in all fairness, hold on.

[00:49:37]I think in all fairness, >> you said the meeting lasted 5 hours, isn't it?

[00:49:42]>> Correct.

[00:49:43]>> And then you did a press in the night.

[00:49:44]You know, by the adjusting that formula is not an easy thing. It's not that something we do at the click of a button and things come. So, we have to do it very carefully so that we don't cause uh issues. So we cazetted almost at 12:00 midnight and uh some of the players honestly some of them uh when we called them the next morning they said we did not see we were not aware because they they slept and maybe they woke up the next day uh only at 7:00 is when you get the advice. And when we got that information it's true we called everybody and we sent our surveillance team outside and clearly all the players were cooperative. They said the law is the law. If the prices have come down, we have adjusted the prices across the country. So I I think Jeff to me let me say we are in a season. Uh it's not a very good season and all of us have have to work together because uh this country belongs to you and me. We may be the ones who are stewards in government today and tomorrow you may be on the side of government. So we have to work together as stakeholders. As a fact, our law requires us to protect all stakeholders. The investor who is investing in a matu, the investor who is investing in oil, stakeholders like government and even consumers. So those are the things we have to balance. The beauty of uh the oil business, it's a boom and bust cycle. So this will not last forever.

[00:51:15]>> So Jeff, just to complete uh you see I was interrupted. So when uh when that happened and they changed the fuel prices you see now the goodwill comes in from the part of the government where they have given us something and they have promised us there will be further reduction.

[00:51:33]>> Yes.

[00:51:33]>> Now when you look what is happening in around the country you see that's why I said we still have a country to protect because our strike was a peaceful strike. We wanted vehicles off the road until the negotiations is done. But now we start realizing that people are burning people's vehicles.

[00:51:56]>> People we don't know. They were arrested around 300 400 people and mo most of almost all of those arrested not drivers, not conductors, not owners of vehicles.

[00:52:10]>> And don't forget some people died.

[00:52:11]>> Yeah. And some people died. And have you heard of a driver or a conductor that died? None. So when these things started spiraling, we were we tried to call our chairman across the counties and asking them guys what's happening and they tell us we don't even know who these people that are demonstrating are. Now at that point we we sat and asked ourselves uh have we been infiltrated? So we realized >> What are you trying to say? Wasn't >> what I'm trying to say.

[00:52:40]>> The strike was hijacked or what? That's what I'm trying to say. Our strike is peaceful. Vehicles are at home. We've told our drivers and conductors just stay at home until this message.

[00:52:52]>> And who are those people burning tires?

[00:52:54]>> Burning vehicles.

[00:52:55]>> People that are burning tires. We try to ask chairman from the various counties.

[00:53:00]We ask them, "Have you organized any people to demonstrate in your areas?"

[00:53:05]None. Then supermarkets are being rooted.

[00:53:09]>> Mhm.

[00:53:10]uh a school wall has been pulled down.

[00:53:14]People have walked in, come out with books, laptops and all these things. So we sat and asked ourselves, is this what our strike entails? Is this who are these people? And when we could not get an answer on who these people that are terrorizing other people are and we have a deal of 10 shillings with room for further negotiation. We decided that just like Saiti said the country is bigger than an individual. So >> but you know there times like those there are people who obviously take advantage of the situation >> but this time but this time they were taking advantage and being baptized matter to people.

[00:53:54]>> Yeah. Okay. And they were not mour we realize finish let me finish. We realize that there is overwhelming public outreach because of uh the fuel there is of course that's obvious >> which we also have.

[00:54:08]>> Okay. Yeah. But you've hiked your prices 50%. I mean >> butish still not selfish because the vehicles cannot run.

[00:54:16]>> Okay Cornelius. So >> the thing is I mean it's first first of all very regrettable that uh in this country every time there is a strike or any form of demonstration people die.

[00:54:28]It's regrettable whether it's either you know people who take advantage or the police or whoever it is it's a very regrettable thing and even for the people who lost their lives in this strike or property I mean it's it's one thing that we all must offer our um apologies even though it's not us who cost it.

[00:54:47]But Jeff going back to the you know subject matter this issue of fuel is not new to the country even in Uru's time we had a similar problem and I there was a lot of talk about what is causing it to war and I remember you know politicians exchange sides >> quite often and in fact election is coming next year in by August there would be a lot of exchange of sites I mean um but He one day were on the other side. They were speaking about this same matter differently. Murcommen and others were in the last regime and they were speaking different about this matter.

[00:55:28]And that's why I'm saying it doesn't matter where the solution comes from.

[00:55:31]The fact is we must get a solution. And that's why I'm saying this discussion about fuel must go back to what it is doing. It is hurting the entire economy.

[00:55:40]And which is why I am saying to our brother here who is a regulator, my sympathies or I sympathize with him to a great extent because the issue we are discussing here is what is really causing the price of fuel to go up and what is in the impact and implication of a high price especially on diesel.

[00:56:00]>> It will slow the economy and you have seen it. the government lost a lot of taxation either levies for the counties or actual corporate taxes or VAT for that matter and leies that they would have collected in those two days and I'm sure he has a numbers of how much of the diesel or petrol would have been sold.

[00:56:18]If you look at those numbers, I would have imagined that government would actually think about what they are losing when the business people are not in business because remember the primary source of income for any government is taxes.

[00:56:35]The problem here is that government is looking for the easiest way to tax. So they keep loading uh taxes on the products that people must buy and fuel is one of them. I I keep using this example of the bread. It it it kept becoming so expensive either by cost of input or taxation. And it got to a point where there was no more elasticity. The the bread started shrinking from 800 g to 600 g. Same bread, different size, same price, >> right?

[00:57:07]>> Mandazi in the village used to be longer. When they couldn't push the price higher, they reduced the mandaz.

[00:57:13]This is what government is trying to discuss. Unfortunately, in the mat industry, you can't shrink your truck, >> you can't shrink the distance. You can't tell your your customer, you walk half the distance, I'll pick you up along the way.

[00:57:26]>> In the drilling industry, I can't drill half a well.

[00:57:29]>> We still got to do the full job. And that's why I'm saying, let's not lose the gist of this matter. The gist of the matter is that the Kenyan cannot afford any other price adjustment whether by way of taxation or by way of levies or by way of market forces. So when that happens, >> the government must behave like a father and start asking themselves, my child can no longer afford to carry the weight. Do I walk in? Do I come in? And I I want to say this, if indeed what he's saying is to be taken as the cause of this problem, then we are in extraordinary times.

[00:58:06]>> No doubt about it. And you mentioned you mentioned solutions. And you know, real quick before we go to feedback, we have plenty of feedback.

[00:58:12]>> G2G government to government deal. It was it was hailed as the game changer.

[00:58:17]In the Middle East, government to government is exactly that, G2G. Here, it's in the hands of private entities.

[00:58:27]Come on, man. We're not idiots here.

[00:58:31]Someone's making a killing from this.

[00:58:35]>> Thank you, Jeff. So uh G2G uh came about in 2023 April and uh it was as a result of uh what we had gone through in 2022 when this new administration was taking over uh we had dollar scarcity and uh products were paid in dollars because uh under the old regime of the open tender system the letters of credit were issued for 30 days from the bill of leading debt. So you had like 5 days or 5 to 10 days before you could look for dollars, pay back the importer and then the importer is able to uh uh liquidate the LC. Uh of course that put a lot of pressure and here we are talking about $500 million in a single month and that time is when all dollars had been moved from the frontier markets back to the US. So the exchange rate went wild. It moved from 120 shillings to almost 166.

[00:59:34]And then looking for dollars became a problem. You could bring a cargo at the port of Mombasa. It sits there for between 14 and 21 days. Some even were staying even for 30 days. That has a problem in itself because that is the marriage and also that causes a security of supply challenge. You find that this product in Mombasa but marketers are not able to lift it up. So that is when government went out and asked themselves if we extended the LC period from 30 to maybe 180 days and then we can be able to unwind this LC's in 6 months instead of 1 month. We can give ourself room so that these dollars because it the import bill for petroleum is was about 30% of the total country's import bill. Meaning if we lack these dollars the health sector would suffer. We importing machinery, we're importing food even sometimes and we importing all this ICT stuff and all that. So the thing was we delay the liquidation of this LC for 6 months instead of 1 month so that we could give a breathing space to the economy. And of course that worked magic because uh with the implementation of G2G first in terms of product supply everybody was able to lift product because now we dominated our payment into shillings. But of course we have a mechanism of converting that shilling from the 90th day to the 175th day before the 180th day where the LC matures into dollars and that gave us a breathing space.

[01:01:10]>> Has it worked or has it not worked?

[01:01:12]>> Worked very well. Today we've delivered over 230 caros. We've never defaulted on a single LC. Our exchange rate has now stabilized at 1291 130. We have enough product in the in the in the market today. If we look at and the other most important thing that G2G did, we fixed the premium and fright which was a floating figure under the old regime.

[01:01:38]Today petrol the G2G rate is $84 a ton.

[01:01:43]If you look at the sport market, it is at $284, three times. So that is what we'd be exposed to if we're in the open market.

[01:01:52]In fact, I got a text this evening. Our store is a premium of $400 in the making. You can imagine $84400.

[01:02:02]And these are realities. You can check with the suppliers.

[01:02:05]>> So why you keep increasing fuel prices?

[01:02:07]One would ask >> the fuel price is dependent largely on the FOB cost. FOB cost is a floating figure internationally. I've given the numbers clearly. We've moved like for diesel which is what chipsoy uses here.

[01:02:21]It has moved from $637 a ton to $13.99.

[01:02:26]That's 118% increase. That translates directly to the pump.

[01:02:32]>> All right, [snorts] we have a lot of feedback. Gentlemen, stand by. Tweets coming in thick and fast. How you >> plenty and M says, "Ask Matu and the airra guy, the engineer on a Kenya shilling 10 diesel reduction while paraffhin prices went up. My question is who represented lowincome Kenyans who rely on paraffhin daily? Why is relief always negotiated for businesses but the poor are left to absorb >> the pain? engineer.

[01:03:01]>> Uh indeed there was a a very lengthy discussion around uh the mechanics of having the price differential between diesel and kerosin reduced because uh there was a genuine concern uh these guys are buying very expensive machinery. Those vehicles are very expensive and most of them are on loans.

[01:03:22]So uh if you mix kerosin and diesel well you may not be able to see although currently I'm doing a biocode program where I put a bio in kerosene you can't see it when you mix it with diesel I come and test in the station I will know I have equipment that can detect that but of course there was also the discussion who uses kerosin currently the consumption of kerosin is about 5 million lit a month and we know part of it is being used by gas turbines in Muharoni about 1.8 million liters. So the the question that we had in that meeting was how high can we how how close can we close this gap and I think there was wisdom first in government maintaining keros law because of the consideration for the low income but then of course when a concern has come from other stakeholders then we have to strike a balance and that's why now we move to a level which uh it was high but not too high. Yeah, but the poor are always the ones who suffer the most, aren't they?

[01:04:28]>> Yes, Jeff. Next, >> uh, Sir Pablo Y says, "Jeff, yesterday was shocked that Kenyan president has a message for Arsenal, but not for the fuel crisis.

[01:04:41]People have died. Not even a sign of word from the state. One day, one day, one day."

[01:04:48]>> Alvin says, "Why is no one talking about petrol prices? You forget that online taxes and border borders heavily rely on petrol. This should be a conversation about petroleum products, not just diesel. Right.

[01:05:01]>> True. Okay. Products. Yeah. Uh he says ask engineer why do they have to change all these nine levies per liter rather than adopting it per gallon or barrel. Excise, VAT, adulteration, petroleum development, railway levy, uh petroleum, uh rev levies, so many levies, engineer, so many. Are they all necessary?

[01:05:26]>> Yeah, the the levies and taxes are fixed through legislation. Some are fixed numbers, some advantages.

[01:05:34]>> Uh and uh they serve different functions like the excess duty, the road maintenance levy. uh those like the road maintenance level you know it's for maintenance of our roads >> which maintenance of our roads >> yeah which >> yeah we we are constructing new road projects and uh we are also maintaining the existing road so that's the reason so so so we have the initially we used to have like tall charges on the roads isn't it >> then we decided to convert those tall charges into one ballpark figure which would go to the per liter cost of fuel so and and I think this is what we also discussing with somebody earlier today that you may find countries who have lower fuel cost. It looks superficially low but those guys are also paying road toll charges.

[01:06:21]>> So as [snorts] we have loaded it on the fuel then they are doing it opposite.

[01:06:24]>> The stereius a says why can't we get fuel from Nigeria as in the Dangote refinery which I suppose will be way cheaper if the hormuz is one is one that is expensive.

[01:06:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. You see African refining capacity has been low. We think that Dangote has come now around. He has a refinery in Nigeria which is doing 650,000 barrels. It's not a small refinery by any chance. And he has disrupted markets in Northern Europe and in America. So we'll also start getting fuel from there. And I know Dote has also promised to come to East Africa and put up a refinery. If he puts a refinery of another 650,000 barrels here, we have a refining capacity of over 1.2 2 million barrels that's equivalent to what we have under Reliance which is in India Jamnagal. So once that capacity has been upped then the first point of uh service of that product will be Africa definitely.

[01:07:21]>> It took him 10 years to build that refinery. It's going to take us another what 10 15 years.

[01:07:25]>> No no he's I I heard the announcement he's looking and looking very hard to come this side. Viv says ask them what happens if the straight of Hormuz remains closed and we get to massive supply deficit. Will we get the 300 billion 300 shillings mark and how soon?

[01:07:45]>> Talk about 300 shilling water a barrel.

[01:07:47]Yeah.

[01:07:47]>> A liter.

[01:07:48]>> A liter.

[01:07:49]>> Yeah. Next is this was a comment. Yes.

[01:07:54]If you can proceed. Uh Ashi Ko says, "With all due respect, why force out and arrest senior energy officials for allegedly procuring substandard fuel and still go ahead to temporarily lower the same fuel quality standards for purchase."

[01:08:10]>> Okay.

[01:08:11]>> Aron says, "Those Matato guys took Kenyans for a ride. They ended a strike for an important cause without a return to work formula. When I saw the due respect guy smiling gibberishly the following day for being quote unquote treated well, I knew we are [laughter] Kennedy Kunda Sami Ombos Dumbo says it is alleged that Matu sector se sector leaders were each given 500,000 shillings in a deal facilitated by Governor Sakaja and flight tickets have also been booked for them to travel to Mumbai. Assa for a meeting with President William R. How true is this?

[01:08:56]Christian Mulipata.

[01:08:59][sighs] >> Sometimes it's unfortunate that uh um some things have to be said but I can tell you Jeff all the leaders in the Matu sector don't own one two three vehicles. They own more than 10 buses and above all 13 33 and 51 seats and those buses do make around 10,000 per day. So if you gave me 500,000 that's barely 2 three days income. So and we do many other things.

[01:09:36]So uh we are not the kind of uh hungry people that would take five uh 500,000 and then then lose out on the on the entire month. uh actually it's insulting and uh I think every time you are doing something that will benefit the mani as I was saying before people people got into our strike and took over our strike and I believe those people that did that are are trying to blackmail us so that we continue with a strike when they have ulterior motives and because why would why would a peaceful strike that is gaining results be infiltrated by people that are only concentrating on destroying properties and businesses.

[01:10:33]>> I'm telling you it's more of political and those are the people that are pushing us. Oh, you have an envelope, you have this. It has nothing to do with that >> as much as um let me just look which camera Jeff which one >> we'll have time to do we'll have time >> that one >> I hope there's a ticket to Mombasa your excellency it's you we want to meet so that these prices can go down if there's a ticket air ticket please send it to me directly and uh or or even we are willing we we have money we can pay tickets and join you in Mombasa so that we discuss with you and you drop the prices.

[01:11:21]>> What makes you think that meeting the president will lower fuel prices? Do you think he controls the switch?

[01:11:26]>> Because when we were in the meeting, we were told >> we managed managed a crisis and uh this is the match we can get and you know uh the boss is not around and ABCD now the boss is around. So if we can talk to the president and the fuel price goes down, why not?

[01:11:45]>> Why Mombasa?

[01:11:46]>> Why not? Why Mombasa?

[01:11:47]>> Yes.

[01:11:47]>> If he's in Mombasa, do you own Mombasa?

[01:11:50]Had we been told to fly to and see the president and the fuel prices will go down, I'm telling you right now, I would be in as long as the fuel prices go down. Talk to me, >> I still repeat, let us keep their eye on the ball. I just want to bring one thing to you, Jeff. Remember, this is an alliance >> of very many industries. Correct. They come to >> industry. We have our unique problems >> and our unique understanding of this problem.

[01:12:26]>> He comes from transport. He has their unique problem and the understanding of the problem. They come from the mat sector. They understand their problem.

[01:12:36]Now Jeff I hold a different view.

[01:12:39]I am a man who believes in numbers and I like the way he likes to put the numbers there and once in a while try to hing us a bit which is a >> expected [laughter] >> I don't expect him to I mean you you've got to give credit to the man he's really doing his job >> and trying to give government position >> but there's something we're losing I said for us it does not really matter what that formula says at this point it's extraordinary time I understand that formula I've seen the formula I understand everything he's talking about prices doubling in uh the market but if he keeps hammering that point then I want to ask him who's going to pay him VA when all the vehicles are packed when all the equipments are parked when all the people can't come to work where is he going to collect that so called VA and remember Jeff I told you it's not unique to this government see this is I you've noticed there's not been a politician in this thing because we have resisted the urge to have a common position with the politician. We are business people.

[01:13:48]>> We look at only one thing numbers and the numbers are saying it does not make sense.

[01:13:53]>> Okay.

[01:13:53]>> The math is not math. The math is not math. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going.

[01:13:57]>> Moses says, Jeff, please ask how is the negotiations so far? Are we expecting a white smoke or a walking nation in six days time in the land of na [laughter] next week?

[01:14:12]Okay, this is the thing responded to. We move to the next Jeff >> Moses. Okay, onion gum says let Mr. Kinu explain to us in a lay man's language how the straight of Huz is affecting us yet we are not importing through it. All we know is that the closure of the straight affects fuel going to Asia and other markets. Although 20% of the world's >> simple answer, we're importing through the straight of >> Jabel Ali port is one of our biggest loading ports and also Ruis Ruis refinery was hit during this crisis. And then of course outside the street of Humuz where there was a blockade by the US uh where they were throwing things with Iranians. uh we have uh Fujira and we also have Oman we load from there so nobody should tell you that we are not using straight of mus it's one of our biggest loading points >> and 20% of the world's exports >> exactly >> originate from the street travel down the street J says the landing cost of petrol according to APRA was 117 bob how then does this translate to 214 taxes >> this indicates an 82.9% tax and levies clearly showing a deliberate action by the government to overt tax the citizens. I think there was a response that it is taxes.

[01:15:33]>> Yeah, it's not all taxes. We have supply margins and we have storage and distribution.

[01:15:40]>> But uh basically uh the the the formula and actually in terms of transparency we give the entire breakdown so he can be able to get in our press release the breakdown is there.

[01:15:51]>> What she's saying or he is saying is that there is that is high still >> Abd. Yes, please, Jeff. Just >> you know, even the hangman, the the guy who hangs people, the hangman, he's very transparent. They hang you in public.

[01:16:04]It's very transparent.

[01:16:06]>> No, he wears a hood over his head.

[01:16:07]>> No, no. The the guy wears a hood, but the hanging is public.

[01:16:11]>> So there's no secret about it.

[01:16:12]>> They hang you for a reason.

[01:16:14]>> Yes. And I'm saying even we are getting hanged as business people. So the more you say, >> are you also hanging the consumers?

[01:16:21]>> No. No. We in fact let me tell you uh and I've tried to put this point through remember we've become a conduit for everybody else else's business when he says as a an importer there's something that he's not telling you the tax is reinvented VAT is ring fence for government the leies is has a ley there which is ring fenced h the road le ring fence the profit or the the the the uh the the oil marketers uh uh figure is ring fenced the businessman is the only person who has got to do his mechanics and be able to remain with something. So listen when we transfer when we buy that product we have become a conduit for everybody else's business including government who has a reinforced amount in the formula.

[01:17:12]In fact, Jeff, we should be asking, he said it when he started, this formula has been here for 16 years. Correct?

[01:17:19]>> Mhm.

[01:17:20]>> Why? We should even be asking the question, isn't this girl a little bit too old now?

[01:17:26]>> Can't we start thinking about whether this formula is working for us?

[01:17:29]>> Can we also talk about this question?

[01:17:32]You know, you said something very nice.

[01:17:33]We're going to be importing from Dangote. We're going to be importing from other sources. Now, the question is, is this still G2G? How did we move away from OTS to G2G? I don't dispute all these issues about dollars and what not. But sometimes Kenyans must also be careful and learn the mechanics of government. There's something called messiah habit. You raise a tax, you raise a thing very high and then you when there is a lot of h noise, you just bring it down a bit and that's how prices never come down.

[01:18:07]>> Yes, Jeff.

[01:18:08]>> All right, let's move on.

[01:18:10]Uh, go ahead.

[01:18:12]>> Sylvia Wangerro from Gashier says, "Jeff, commuters need to have their association also to protect them from greedy matato associations.

[01:18:22]With the association, we can ask members to stay at home and not board matus in case of fair increase.

[01:18:28]>> You know, we are at their mercy. If the government fails to lower the fuel price, all those officials sitted with you, they have a fallback. They will just hike the fairs. What about the commuter?

[01:18:40]>> Always the loser.

[01:18:41]>> Yeah, >> always. King David Davis says, "Jeff, please ask Engineer Kenya, why can't they buy fuel from Usbakistan or Kazakhstan? It's cheaper from the refinery."

[01:18:52]>> True. False.

[01:18:53]>> Yeah. But but we must also be true to the fact that uh the specifications of this fuel, especially coming from Eastern Europe, especially for diesel, uh our flash point is usually much higher. Like for diesel, our flash point is 60°. Uh then uh if you get fuel from Eastern Europe, it's usually at 55°. So the specs may not match one to one.

[01:19:16]>> What does flash point mean?

[01:19:17]>> Flash point this is uh the temperature at which the natural there's natural ignition of that fuel. So it's about 60° for diesel. Although we import a higher spec of about uh 66 because of uh we are operating a common uh user pipeline. So if you import from Eastern Europe, you'll find their flash point is much lower. It's about 55°. So even if we are looking for diversifying our import roots, we have then to think about how does that marry with our spec.

[01:19:51]>> Okay.

[01:19:51]>> All right. Next, >> Dr. John Ral says, "Question for the CEO of the Federation of Transport Associations. The idea is not just talking to be seen that you are protecting the consumers. You need to give reasons why you think the prices of petroleum products means should not go up."

[01:20:10]>> Okay. And we move on to next. Um Jethro M says, "What was the purpose of your strike? People were killed, businesses looted, vehicles torched, livelihoods destroyed. Then you call off the strike without achieving anything. You owe Kenyans an explanation and an apology because you are liable for what happened. If [snorts] you cannot stand up for what you believe in, then stop disturbing and confusing Kenyans. H >> okay. Mo says, "Engineg, if you entered into contract under G2G, a certain price per barrel for a specified time, why are the prices of these petroleum products changing locally every month? Should the variation be minimal based on the dollar variations? Why burden Kenyans?"

[01:21:00]>> I think I can answer that.

[01:21:01]>> Yeah. Briefly, >> G2G what was locked was freighted premium. the barrel cost or the cost of the product internationally which is international best practice it's left floating it happened in the OTS even under the open tender system companies were only tendering for that freight and premium the rest is left floating it's always a hidden cost somewhere isn't there mimu fuar says it is a wonder that now it's profit matu owners who are in the forefront in defending the helpless Kenyans, not the legislators or the government.

[01:21:43]H >> Moses says Jeff please ask the director Epra engineer Edward why should the country rely on fuel imports and yet [laughter] >> so yes briefly >> we we've not even started producing that oil and even if we start producing it uh in terms of the quantity of uh production we are looking at 20,000 barrels in a single day of because that quantity does not support us to economically put up a refinery which basically uh would be uh what we are using now to get the refined products.

[01:22:22]So uh we are looking at doing more exploration and appraisal so that we can increase the quantum of that production maybe at that point and we also pray that Mr. Dangote comes to our region comes to our country and puts that up.

[01:22:36]>> Didn't Talo pack up and leave? Yeah, but we have Gulf Energy Talo sold over to Gulf Energy. They're the ones who are doing uh the production.

[01:22:45]>> And who owns Golf Energy?

[01:22:47]>> Golf Energy, you have the CL12. You know who are the owners? And it's a private company. We've been licensing for the last 20 years. They have been doing uh uh mid and downstream. Actually, they've been importers there and then they have transitioned now to the upstream sector.

[01:23:03]>> Who owns G Energy? The directors are there in the CL12.

[01:23:09]>> Rasbash Roy says, "Ask Cosian why maters increase every time fuel prices rise, but passenger salaries do not increase.

[01:23:20]Why are commuters sometimes forced to pay extra charges even during short distances whenever fuel prices slightly increase?" We address this.

[01:23:30]um still continues says can EPRA guarantee Kenyans that there is no corruption or manipulation in the fuel pricing process. What accountability measures exist for officials and companies found exploiting Kenyans through artificial fuel shortages or inflated prices also addressed.

[01:23:50]>> Yeah, so many questions.

[01:23:52]>> Yeah. Uh Thomas says ask the EPRA CEO why he says landed cost of diesel is 167 shillings yet a Ramco website says price for May is 1.79 dirhams which comes to about 80 shillings.

[01:24:11]I need to verify the source of that uh information because as uh we do our benchmark on S&P global which uh we call plats and everybody can check the movement of the price on a day-to-day basis.

[01:24:26]>> Okay. Check the Aramco website. Limo Bannard says, "Engineer if you enter." I think this is uh >> the GTV.

[01:24:33]>> This was is repeated. So, we can >> um next is uh was that the last Monica?

[01:24:41]>> Oh, that was the last one. Okay. I know there's many more.

[01:24:43]>> There's another one here.

[01:24:44]>> Oh, there's one more.

[01:24:45]>> Mkhtar Khalif says from Oja County, Kenyans must know that though they have right to demonstrate against fuel prices, it is the duty of all Kenyans to ensure they don't loot businesses. It is equally the duty of the opposition to tell their supporters that this country belongs to both the opposition and those supporting the government.

[01:25:06]>> Okay. Finally, Derek says understanding the now well now Kenya isn't something to joke around. People used to read between the lines and kept quiet. But nowadays we read and comment about it.

[01:25:26]With all due respect, that's true. Gentlemen, it's past midnight, which means the clock is ticking. Five more days.

[01:25:44]We're going to have some final thoughts going forth. Okay. Starting with you with all due respect, go final thoughts.

[01:25:50]>> Thank you so much. With all due respect, there is a goodwill that we were given and that is what made us to suspend the strike. Come Monday, Tuesday, we'll see what will come out and we'll put on the statement. So I want to request our Kenyan citizen from their commuters, our brothers and sisters, let us hold on. Of course, we have a country. We have a a nation. Let's stick to the goodwill. Seven days are elapsing. We'll come out with a solution. Thank you very much.

[01:26:23]>> All right. Cornelius Chipsoy, final thoughts.

[01:26:26]>> My final thought is that as a country, every crisis offers an opportunity to actually come up with something better.

[01:26:34]And this uh uh fuel price crisis is an opportunity for the country to look at many other things. This is something beyond the the price of fuel. It's actually an economic problem. The fact that people can no longer afford to take a hit on another price increase should actually tell the government something and use this opportunity to actually ask itself questions. My final thought on actually what could be done to lower this price is the admittance by government that a huge portion of the uh fuel price is taxes, levies and government income in whatever name you call it. They we cannot blame uh the war in Iran. We cannot heap the entire bl this is something that we all can see but it doesn't mean that they can't flex their muscle. They've reduced VAT before. They can suspend the remaining part of VAT, the 8%. And wait until this situation is better. There is nothing urgent. It we don't have to build all those roads and have all the people die just because we want to build a road. We can do without it for the time being.

[01:27:42]I'm not saying I mean it's not in my place to tell government how to adjust its income. But we are saying to government Kenyans cannot afford another price increase. Cornelius uh Christian.

[01:27:54]>> Yes. Um I would like to state that uh calling off the strike does not mean is not tantamount to abandoning our people or um stopping to fight for our rights.

[01:28:11]So as leaders we are just we we gave we so we thought is wise to give dialogue a chance so that we can be able to get a solution to what is the the fuel crisis so that they can go down. So I would urge Kenyans to be patient with us and we are sure that we we will deliver and uh for the president and his team the ministers involved we are we are still waiting for you to call us. I know we've been bashed because it is said that we are going we are looking for an appointment with you and it's true we are waiting for government to contact us so that we can have a final discussion.

[01:28:57]So irregardless of where you are uh if you are in Mombasa as they say we are waiting and we will be avail ourselves so that we can conclude this discussion uh we don't need to wait up to Monday or Tuesday the earlier the better we available >> and we will show up. Yeah, engineer, you get the last word.

[01:29:15]>> Uh, yeah, I think what I would like to assure Kenyans is that uh we are aware of the difficulties that uh people are going through because of the increase in fuel prices and we understand the critical role that fuel plays in our economy in terms of mobility of goods and the people uh whether it's on sea, on land or in the air. And uh what we would like to assure Kenyans is that uh the government is doing all it can to ensure that uh irregardless of what is happening out there because of the geopolitics uh we will strive to work to ensure that everybody is kept afloat and uh of course the other thing I need to assure Kenyans is that our pricing formula is transparent it's auditable uh there's no hidden card uh but of course we'll continue talking with all stakeholders to see what is practical uh so that we can be able to relieve that pain. Thank you.

[01:30:14]>> All right. Engineer Edward Quina uh Kushian Mushiri Kennedy counter and Cornelius Chapsoy. Thank you gentlemen.

[01:30:22]>> Thank you. I mean with all due respect >> great with all due respect indeed. If it's any consolation in America they're paying close to 600 shillings a liter.

[01:30:31]>> Not that we can compare ourselves with them but 600 shillings a liter. They open it's $4 a gallon. There's four liters in a gallon. Do the math. If >> no talking, I'm done. [laughter] Thanks so much for the discussion, folks. We always have to keep talking. I always say this because the moment we stop talking, it's the moment we start fighting. And we don't want to go down that slippery route. Like all the gentlemen here says, we only have one Kenya. If we destroy this one, there's no turning back.

[01:31:04]Five more days. Tick tock.

[01:31:07]Tick tock. Thanks so much for being a part of the show. Remember, if it's Wednesday, it's all about those three letters on the keyboard that follow each other. J KL. If you don't believe me, look at your keyboard. What do you say?

[01:31:18]Are you >> 4 days? It's past midnight.

[01:31:22]>> 765.

[01:31:23]>> Yeah, it's 10 minutes past minute.

[01:31:25]>> 6 days yesterday. 5 days now. But maybe where you are is 4 days in >> Wajir. Yeah. [laughter] >> Thanks so much for being a part of the show. Good night. Good luck. God bless Kenya. [laughter] >> [music]