Oburu Can Pick An SG He Can Vibe With, Raila Never Said We Should Support Ruto - Edwin Sifuna

Added: 2026-05-06

[00:00:00]in the situation room this morning. Uh getting into our conversation for this hour and thank you for being here. The senator republic of Kenya for the county of Nairobi is Edin Safuna and he's in the hot seat this morning. Good morning and let the greeting be welcome home.

[00:00:18]>> Oh uh I'm happy to be home. You know the lawyers say that >> that [clears throat] even a bad child has their ownersh. [laughter] >> So do I. I found myself in a very interesting situation. Uh you know how this media interviews are arranged. They are planned over time.

[00:00:42]>> And uh so this local radio station has been looking for me for months, man.

[00:00:47]>> And uh I've been telling them just allow me to schedule things. uh once my schedule clears I'll be with you.

[00:00:54]>> Yeah.

[00:00:54]>> And [clears throat] uh they confirm I confirm for today actually to be with them and uh they call me and tell me that uh there are unavoidable circumstances that cannot allow them to host me there.

[00:01:09]>> But uh fortunately >> you guys are here, you are my friends.

[00:01:14]You know we have more radio stations and political parties in Kenya.

[00:01:20]And I want to thank you for uh very quickly stepping in because there are conversations that have to be had and I am sure the irony is not lost on Kenyans that >> you know there was a time in this country when we used to have only one media house >> and it was during the cano days you know >> so who knew that uh we would find refugees people who believe in democracy in a media station owned by an actual caner.

[00:01:48]Uh so shout out to my chairman GDant.

[00:01:52][laughter] It's the biggest irony of today.

[00:01:55]>> It's interesting how things for sure. Karibana. Anyway, thank you for coming this morning. I'm happy to be here.

[00:02:03]>> Thank you. We're going to get into quite some things, but you know how we do it.

[00:02:06]Dennis is in a different country. Let's >> Where is he? By the way, I've actually missed him.

[00:02:11]>> Yeah, [laughter] I'm here.

[00:02:13]>> Yeshu.

[00:02:16]>> They've had a president for 47 years.

[00:02:18]Yes.

[00:02:18]>> Yeah. But let's go to the proverb.

[00:02:21]>> The moon does not fight the darkness. It simply shines.

[00:02:24]>> Correct.

[00:02:25]>> How would you interpret it?

[00:02:26]>> Oh, I remember the story that Babu told.

[00:02:28]Uh, you know, they've been trying all sorts of u uh ways to saw division and uh >> Mhm.

[00:02:37]>> and uh and and and try and separate the Linda Moni team. And uh I remember he was asked that uh question about me and him. You know, [clears throat] people don't people don't know the backtory and the histories that we have.

[00:02:49]>> And I remember him saying that the sun and the moon do >> what the sun and the moon do.

[00:02:55]>> Yeah. In fact, they they don't take uh anything from each other.

[00:02:59]>> Yeah. So, um what your that proverb or the saying is [clears throat] uh >> uh the moon just does its job, you know, >> h it just shines.

[00:03:10]>> Yeah. So, I think that's all I'm going to say about it.

[00:03:13]>> Indeed.

[00:03:14]>> Yeah. Makes sense.

[00:03:14]>> Staying consistent.

[00:03:17]>> Let's do some housekeeping just to get some understanding first of all before we get into things.

[00:03:22]>> Are you the ODM secretary general?

[00:03:24]>> Oh, I should have started by saying that I am the CIUA >> SG of ODM, >> Senator Nairobi and the deputy whip uh of the minority minority senate just for clarity sake. uh but no you understand that uh that matter is uh live under the uh litigation of the courts >> uh we are expecting a judgment actually on the 5th uh because uh certain decisions were taken uh by the party's national executive committee that I thought were unprocedural >> and uh uh we moved uh the uh political parties disputes tribunal uh in the initial uh uh instance they told us that uh uh there exists within the constitution of ODM uh mechanisms for dispute resolution uh which for me I didn't really agree with what the PPD said because uh the internal dispute resolution mechanism is available not just for agrieved individuals but also for the party uh if they had a dispute with me they had uh also that responsibility to invoke that internal dispute resolution mechanism >> so that we could resolve it internally they didn't do that they took a decision that was adverse to my um and uh threw me out essentially as uh uh or purported to throw me out as secretary general. So the PPD in the initial instance they told us that uh you guys go and try arbitration.

[00:04:50]>> So we write to uh the party and tell them we are invoking the arbitration clause uh and uh they reject arbitration.

[00:05:00]>> They say that there will be no arbitration. So we went back to the PPDT to tell them uh you guys told us to try arbitration. Uh I have written declared a dispute uh in accordance with your guidance. Uh I I proposed names of uh arbitrators uh very seasoned professionals in the arbitration space.

[00:05:21]Uh what the constitution requires is you agree on who the arbitrators are going to be. So I propose three names. they were supposed to propose names and then we agree yeah let's have this three arbitrate the the dispute they rejected that so I had no option but to go back to uh the PPDT so as as it stands today is still the SGM and I want to explain something do that I have said repeatedly that uh none of these positions are anybody's birthright >> uh I have said that I don't have to be SG ODM in fact it has been the honor of my life that I got to be Ria's last SG and uh I served him faithfully for uh 8th year 8 years. This is my ninth year as as SG of ODM. Uh I have been uh supported greatly from all across the country by members of ODM. Uh because you need their support to be able to do this job.

[00:06:14]>> And uh there's stories I have for days.

[00:06:16]I don't know if you have the time.

[00:06:17][laughter] >> Uh one of the stories that I don't believe I have told is that uh uh I have said publicly I don't have to be SG. Uh but you have to follow the constitution of ODM to replace an SG. Uh you have had us calling for a national delegates convention where uh you can run whoever you want to run against and let the members of ODM decide that we are tired with SUNA and we want somebody else uh to to do to do the job. Uh but they have not done that you know and we continue to insist as Linda Moni that what we want is a leadership that has a mandate of the membership of ODM uh that has a legitimacy. So let's have an NDC where uh we all our positions are subjected to competition. I have no problem. You can run whoever it is you want to run against me and if they win uh let them do the job of SG. Uh but the reason why we are fighting and people people need to understand the reason why we're fighting is the party has certain uh rules and and and the constitution of a party is there. Now when Aubu was appointed uh as a party leader you know I was not there. Uh I had gone to uh India, Mumbai. We were on that flight that brought Baba back home >> and uh uh after the burial and uh you [snorts] know there there was a meeting we held uh at Chungua House which is a party headquarters >> uh prior to the first uh central committee that he chaired >> and uh I remember we sat there as as as two men in Raa's office you know the party leader's office >> and I toldu uh you know you have publicly called for my removal there was an incident after uh the meeting in Kakamega there was this Tommy meeting in Kakamega which you know Buru tells a different version because when I went to Kakamega I was actually the target of uh heckling they had planned that there'd be people saying certain things there and I'd be heckled in front of my party leader and so on and so forth but it backfired but to hear Auburu tell the story he says that I arranged for those people to be there uh to say that they love uh They love safa mind you do you know I was born in Kakamega I grew up in Kakamega I went to school in Kakamega my wife [clears throat] is from Kakamega my mother is from Kakamega those are my people >> I don't need to arrange anything in Kakamega so uh after the kakamega meeting uh Aubu was speaking somewhere I think in s in a church or something said oh you know thisa is such a small person if we wanted today we would kick him out right >> so that is the context in which we having this uh conversation at Chunga House and I tell him, "Senior, you know, I have a lot of respect for you. Uh you have publicly expressed uh uh opinions that suggest that you're not very comfortable with me being in this position." And I told him that uh the relationship between uh the party leader and the secretary general is so intimate that if there are any tensions between us, probably it won't work, right?

[00:09:16]>> And I want to know from you today, do you still hold those feelings? Yeah.

[00:09:23]>> And you know, first of all, I was upset with that people who spoke were a bit disrespectful to Ria. They were not my people. I'm not the one who told them they say those things, you know.

[00:09:40]>> And [snorts] he says, "I didn't plan to be uh party leader. I have found myself uh in this situation because of circumstance. Nobody would have predicted the death of Ria. But we need each other to be able to uh go through this difficult period to transition the party uh and uh let bygones be bygones >> and do we shake hands you did >> because I told him if you still feel that way I will give you my letter of resignation today.

[00:10:08]>> Okay.

[00:10:08]>> Yeah. because the the bigger interest is not Sifuna being SG is for the party to progress because I I honestly what I say that Raa's barrier is something that I actually believe in that I believe that ODM was one of is one of Ria's biggest legacies as a person who believed in multi-party democracy as a person who actually fought for multiarty democracies he he believed that political parties need to be strengthened they need to be uh perpetual like he said it himself that the party needs to meant it, you know. So it's not about SUA. It's not about SHA. I was prepared to give Aubu a letter and say uh let me give you an opportunity to pick an SG that maybe you guys can vibe. But after that, after that, I mean, if if we skip forward a little bit, >> you still came out and said, "I refuse to be an SG to mediocrity."

[00:11:04]>> Because what does mean? Because there is there is things that happen subsequent to that because you know where I come from, like the community that I come from, >> uh when you sit down as two men or two women >> and iron out issues and shake hands on it. when uh we left Chungua house and went to the first meeting of uh the central committee somewhere in wlands that you saw us speaking uh the first time after Raa's death >> [clears throat] >> uh I thought that we were on the same page and every time we sit in these meetings new we agree on certain things very basic things we agree that the party has not made a decision to support William Rese never said never told us at any particular point in time that we should support William R's re-election in had seen uh 2027 as the best opportunity for ODM because I can see the headline on the star uh on the standard saying numbers don't lie. It's actually true that you can do the math yourself. If we uh William R was declared president by 200,000 votes in 2022 and he has lost a big chunk of his support because Mount Kenya alone gave him almost 4 million votes out of the the so-called 7 million that he got. So Baba uh had seen that this is a great opportunity for ODM uh because all we needed to do was to retain our bases.

[00:12:25]The exact same number of people who voted for us in 2022 are enough to make you president in uh 2027. So we sit in these meetings and we agree that nobody is going to run around shouting two >> immediately we leave the the meeting.

[00:12:41]You see them in Bay in Migori shouting tutam. So the rest of us who know that a decision has not been made to support William R have to come out have to come out and say no no no no that is not the position of of of the party. Up to today nobody in the so-called leadership of ODM currently can show you a resolution of ODM a resolution of ODM >> by any organ of the party to support William. So uh when when then uh you see uh the sort of happenings after that they go to Mombasa and people don't know that even uh the day before Mombasa uh we had a meeting we had a meeting with very senior members of the party who were trying to uh mediate some of his uh uh you know disputes and we reached certain agreements. I was surprised that because after they left it is rumored that they passed through state house and [clears throat] the very next day in the morning they reading these resolutions too.

[00:13:41]>> Yeah. Because >> to remove me as >> so I I think people need to know that is not the problem. Now let me let me address the question you have asked me directly. You see >> uh Raa Oinga was something else >> you know >> and we didn't expect thatu would be like Raa. He actually gets upset when we say h by the way Baba would have done this baba because he had a style of doing things. Baba used to consult widely >> and he used to explain things you know that man our respect by respecting us >> and also uh demonstrating that uh he cared what we thought. I have told the story of the day that I went to say Paul to Baba after he lost Fidel >> and in the middle of that the guy you know we were doing a bi-election in Home >> and I had refused that story of giving a direct ticket to Moses Kajang >> and I was a nobody you know for all intents and purposes everybody knows once Baba says left we will go left >> but because he knew that I had opposed that decision to hand the ticket to Moses he runs after me when I leave the house and he stops me in that corridor outside his house >> and he saysuna we need to talk about >> that's the the day after Fidel has died people are streaming into his his compound to say Paul >> and he says I have been told you are sulking I need to explain to you why we need to do this the way that I am proposing to do it >> that's how people's respect is earned you know you would find explaining even the person you thought is the most useless >> he would he would take his time to talk to him and explain to him. Nowirect [laughter] it's a proper step down for me, you know. So I have nothing but respect for Dr. Aubu, but he has a different style of doing things. We don't begrudge him.

[00:15:47]We were just used to something else.

[00:15:49]Okay.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. So I want to look at broadbase and at the time when broadbase was coming together there was it was not a political agreement. It was a way of people to achieve the 10point agenda.

[00:16:04]>> There was nowhere where there was supporting um the presidency the reelection of William R in 2027. Yes.

[00:16:12]>> But here we are as well on the 10point agenda. There was a deadline 7th of March right and with that today many Kenyans are asking why stay in a union where nothing has been achieved off the 10 points that are there and this has been point of contention between you and those who are opposing you why the difference why the fight in there is it because others don't want to speak the truth >> yeah yeah one of the biggest frustration that uh I have my brother is that uh we all know the truth because these truths were told to us when we were all there, >> you know, and uh the the the frustration has been uh with people who know the truth but have chosen to keep quiet.

[00:16:54]Sometimes somebody will come out and say, "Oh, by the way, uh Baba's position was this." It helps. But then there's those who know the truth that have decided to uh twist it, you know. So the history of the broadbased government, everybody knows what happens in uh uh uh June of 2024. Everybody knows >> uh the country is on the brink. Uh rumors are circulating that we could actually have uh the uh army take over.

[00:17:24]You remember that situation when the young people took over the the streets and came to parliament in the other places and u Baba's uh thinking was that uh you need to protect uh our democracy.

[00:17:37]for him uh the the democratic space that we enjoy was it took so much for us to get to where we are. Even this conversation we were having at the beginning do when I was telling you that there was a time when there was only one radio station and it was Baba Nama.

[00:17:53]>> Uh democracy has certain pillars. There are certain freedoms that underpin democracy. Uh you have to have a freedom of media, freedom of civil society, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, uh freedom uh of uh conscience, uh freedom of worship. These are the key ingredients of a democratic state. And we were not always like this. These young people, I tell them every day, we were not always like this. It it was not always possible for us to sit on a show like this and [clears throat] speak freely, you know. And Baba's position was that this thing has to be guarded.

[00:18:27]As they say that the prize of democracy is a ton of vigilance. There is every possibility that you could actually slip back to what used to happen in the '90s.

[00:18:36]And he says we would rather have a bad president who was elected through some process than to have a dictator or a military man in state house because immediately the military takes over. The constitutional order collapses. All of us even including those of us who are in parliament all institutions including the judiciary and the others they disappear under dictatorship. And he says let us show up this government you know.

[00:19:04]>> Mhm. let let us give him the the support. We get him to a place where we can remove him democratically. That is the background of the broad-based government. When you hear these other characters tell it, you would think that ODM and UDA sat somewhere in convention under very uh normal circumstances and agreed that we're going to form a coalition government. That's not true.

[00:19:29]By the time we are signing the 10point agenda, the people who we loan to government were already in government.

[00:19:38]So the MOU has nothing to do with the the broad-based government. And uh you know these days nobody discusses the MOU because >> even they themselves even they themselves they were denying that we had an expiry date for that MOU. It was the 7th of March. Now Brian, they go to >> Dennis >> Dennis, sorry. They go to KICC and then they they purport to extend by 60 days something they claim has not expired.

[00:20:05]>> Why are you extending it if there's no expiration expire expiring date you know and for me some of my problems emanate from my assessment of the implementation of the MOU. Now it's public knowledge because Baba told the country that it is SUNA who wrote that document.

[00:20:22]>> It is true. We wrote that ourselves and there's a background you know when came from the AU >> they flew him direct to Mombasa and when he arrives at Mombasa status he finds that they had prepared a document uh actually it was more or less a coalition agreement with UDA and Baba says h there's no way I can sign this document his style was first speak to my people >> right >> yeah and you see him embarking on these consultations across the country uh talking to people and Z M used to know even when people were patronizing him he comes back from the initial consultations were in the coast he comes back from those consultations and in front of all of us as leaders of ODM you know I saw I saw [laughter] I saw Caliba Missi my brother doing a radio interview with a Bible in his hand I I think that thing should be standard now [laughter] everybody should hold a Bible and tell the truth you know so Baba comes back from those consultations at the cost and he says uh he can tell when people are afraid to uh uh to to you know to annoy him or to disappoint him. He can tell people who are being patronizing. He can tell people who are afraid to tell him what they actually feel. So he says out of Kifi Mombasa and Qual the only people who told him what they actually felt about that proposal to do an MOU with UDA are the people of >> Gual. M okay.

[00:21:51]>> Yes. He says there are psychopans in Mombasa.

[00:21:54]>> He said it himself in front of people.

[00:21:58]The people of Mombasa.

[00:22:00]>> It's the leadership in Mombasa >> that have decided to be psychopaths.

[00:22:08]You know as a leader you also depend on people to shape your you sharpen your ideas to bounce off ideas. You cannot just have people who say oh left to left, you know. So the 10-point agenda there is that conversation and then we have a central committee meeting at night in Kisumu the day before we did the jamboree in Busousia you know >> and Baba informs the team that you know there is a a group of experts who have been given the mandate to do a proper document you know that the one he saw in Mombasa that one is not who we are as >> and at the end of a meeting he tells him uh when You guys finish doing that document, give it to Sifuna >> and the room goes quiet.

[00:22:56]>> And then these merchants >> who are scared that things might not go their way. They're like, "Oh, Baba, why why can't we form a small committee?"

[00:23:05]>> Members of members of the central committee, right?

[00:23:10]They're saying, "Oh, perhaps we can add one more or two more people." Then Jacob asked them, "How many people does it take to read a document?" Sifuna is our SG and he's also a lawyer. give the document to him when you're done. Slams the table, the meeting is over.

[00:23:23]>> I come back to Nairobi. One week goes by, two weeks go by, nobody's giving me the documents. I call them, I'm like, h, is that agreement ready, guys? They're just dodging me n on the day when we were signing that agreement. In the morning is when these characters shuffling with a laptop >> and the entire central committee of ODM is sitting there uh on one one side of KICC. The president and his team are across the hall. It's a day of signing of a document and then there's a TV like this one in front of me. They start projecting the agreement >> without you having looked at it.

[00:24:01]>> Without me having looked at it, it's the first time all of us are seeing this document. We didn't even get to page two. Baba is like, "Stop.

[00:24:09]>> Which document is this?

[00:24:10]>> This is not who we are." Then he turns to me and ask me, "Have you looked at this document?" I say baba this is the first time I am seeing it with you.

[00:24:19]>> The meeting stops. We are sent upstairs.

[00:24:21]My office is on third floor of KCC. We go there with professoryongo and we sit he sits in my desk. Baba tells us you guys must do a peoplecentric agreement >> and we drafted that thing in like maybe 30 minutes. Yeah. So I know that document. I bring it downstairs. I print one copy give it to my boss. My boss reads it and he says this is it. You know he tells me president across the hall take it to them and tell them this is our reducible minimums. If they say yes to Nharusi if they don't we we go I take it across and because I had told them that you see UDA's interest is not to uh implement anything >> that is in writing. They just want a document from their propaganda and say I knew it that Baba this is going to be a PR disaster for me and I said it from the position of the foremost PR officer for the party because I'm the spokesperson of the party.

[00:25:26]>> Now I take it to the president's team.

[00:25:30]>> Those guys didn't read it.

[00:25:33]They didn't read it because their interest was never in the text. They say there a president sitting there.

[00:25:43]So even when I go back to the to the room where my boss is, they are shocked that it took me less than 5 minutes. So I'm like, >> so it was obvious that it was not read.

[00:25:56]>> They didn't read it because their interest was never in the text. And true to my uh prediction, when we stand at the steps of the KIC, what does the president say?

[00:26:10]>> But look at the text. Look at the text.

[00:26:12]Now, my problems begin the day that I declare that dead.

[00:26:17]>> And [laughter] there's a reason.

[00:26:19]>> There's [clears throat] a reason I declared that MOU dead. We had provided in that MOU that we want to see a stop to abductions. We want to see a stop to killing.

[00:26:30]We want to see political parties. We want to see all of these things. We have listed them down. And the day that the police take Alberto Jang from Homabi all the way to Nairobi and they kill him in the police cells here at Central. And Dennis, we are counting upwards of uh 20 people, young people who have been killed since the day we signed the MOU. So I do show Ivonne and Baba was still there >> and you know me I say as far as I'm concerned once you kill someone they cannot enjoy any of the other things even if you implemented it you know even if you added Homer Bay 2 billion he shillings to build buckets Albert will not go to those markets >> and uh that is essentially the beginning of uh my problems >> and a departure from that I mean of course unfortunately October comes and uh Rio Dingga unfortunately passes >> and [clears throat] thereafter what one would define as a rapid move or a rapid departure then [clears throat] from this supposed agreement took place >> coming into this year 2026 Kitangela was the first stop >> you went to Kitangela and the the reception that you received >> was that an indicator to you that perhaps the country is moving in a different direction and you needed to be the one that was going to be involved in that movement because soon after Kitangela you went to the next place and the next place and the next place and every time you were told that it's going to be dead on arrival but if anything those numbers and that fever has risen.

[00:28:19]>> Yeah. What informed you to now say let's go full throttle?

[00:28:25]>> First of all, uh you know Raa's death was uh a hammer blow.

[00:28:30]>> You know we know that we are all human, we are all mortal, but the way M used to move, you know, nobody ever thought that you would wake up one day and was gone, >> you know. So in fact the the choice of Kitangela you know when when the day that Mun died we actually had uh a party activation in in Kajiad there was a bi-election there >> I was dressed in my orange t-shirt I was going to the ground you know >> and I wake up in the morning and I'm reading my messages I see somebody who is in um uh Ria's office >> he just sent me a message that Amo has left us and I had spoken to him the previous day he had told me he's well he has left uh >> he has left hospital he's in this uvedic clinic or whatever so it was it didn't make sense so we divert we go to mama's house in Karan meet other leaders there we had to stay there president comes we had to stay there and wait for he was in Kisumu I thought because you know he's the head of the jeramogi family >> I thought we were going to make the announcement there when arrived is then statecraft takes over. We are all told we have to go to state house and uh I was so angry when I got to state house that we are doing this there >> you know.

[00:30:00]>> Mhm.

[00:30:02]Then uh they they had already prepared a list of people who are going to Mumbai to fetch him. Then they look because I think it's just because I was there.

[00:30:10]They look at the the list and it's just government people, you know, >> and there's no one from ODM >> and they're like, "Oh, uh Sona, bring your passport. Uh you know, you you'll go and fetch your friend."

[00:30:26]So uh I find myself in this uh flight.

[00:30:29]I'm looking around. I don't see enough of Raa's friends. I'm just wondering who are these characters. Even if Raa himself was to pick the people who are coming to you, >> it's not those characters. Buana, >> I was so angry.

[00:30:45]>> We go, we get to Mumbai. The indignity that I found my boss in uh at the airside there, it it was just very difficult, you know. And I remember people just saying after like we go to stadium for this uh [snorts] >> what was it called? State funeral and the I guess I I can't really begrudge the military because you know once they take over they have their own traditions but we as people of ODM and especially because Rioingga was a Nairobi politician.

[00:31:17]>> H the feeling out there is that we as a people of Nairobi we as a people of ODM never got a chance to mourn Raa. You know there was not even a mention of his party >> at stadium. We we used to do something with Baba when our our grassroots officials or leaders in the party died. Me and him would place like the ODM flag on the casket. And even when there were state officers like I remember when the uh member of parliament for Kibra died we agreed with the state with parliament that we can do half half like the Kenyan flag would be half on the casket we did it at mo girls you know >> so when we are locked out like that and uh >> and we did we don't get a chance to mourn our boss our father it was it was very very difficult you know >> and uh I see people telling me all all over the place. A few weeks after we have Biden saying, "Oh, you know, Sifuna needs to stop mourning and now uh just take leadership and we need to see a direction and and so on and so forth, you know."

[00:32:28]Yeah. So, I mean it it was a tough uh period for all of us and uh we know that we cannot let the people down. we go to these places, we need to speak to the people, we need to speak for our people as well. And the reception has been uh uh fantastic. Uh you know, despite all the threats, despite all the intimidation that has been thrown our way, the people have shown up. You know, I am I must take this opportunity to thank the people of Kisumu >> and personally as SG, you know, I've been SG for 8 years. do the support that I have gotten from Luansa which is like a strong base for the party has just been amazing you know so we go to Kisumu and the people just show up >> you know I think Kisumu was way bigger than Kitangela >> the reception was amazing the people were warm people showed up on the streets uh to just wave at us to to to greet us >> we go to this church in Yalinda and there's thousands of people there um we come out and the people come out with They walked for 4 hours do just to get to the venue there, you know. So, um it [snorts] has been it has been amazing across the country. They said, >> you know, but the people keep showing up and for as long as you know Baba used to to tell us for as long as you on the side of the people as a leader, you have nothing to to fear. Yeah. Because leadership is about the people and uh and we must do everything for them.

[00:33:58]>> Yeah. You you say leadership is about the people and in the Linda Monanchi tours it has not just been here because I'm SG I want to maintain power. You've been speaking about issues affecting Wangi.

[00:34:10]>> Talk about uh today numbers don't lie.

[00:34:12]It has been subject that you've pushed for a very long time. It is the people who will tell you how their situation is. You talk about education where we are with that corruption in the country that rule of law you are big on respecting the rule of law. Some fukoni is it a reality today when you go around the country and meet with Wani in in these meetings right the message that is there is that the country has to change things can't remain as they are >> in your conversation with what do they say and what's your message >> you know at the end of the day I've seen I've seen some people saying oh uh what is the agenda for Linda Moni for for the people and so on and so forth and we have we have maintained that uh the government that Kenyans wanted has already been defined >> in our constitution and you know the constitution has a history there is a place we came from uh Dennis that people don't want to go back to >> you know and increasingly if you speak to these young people they will tell you they want increasingly human beings want to be free they want government out of their business you know so we are the ones saying roads are good but can we all be alive to use those roads. You know, >> can we be in a an environment where we are free to express ourselves that just because you are affiliated or you own a media station, you cannot call and cancel.

[00:35:40]>> You know, by and large, if you speak to these young people, they will tell you they want to be free. And if you look at the preamble of the constitution, we defined the kind of government that we wanted. We want a government that respects the six essential uh tenets of a constitution, the values of our constitution. It is democracy, it is freedom, it is human rights and it actually starts with human rights, you know, and uh rule of law and uh social justice.

[00:36:09]>> So when you speak to these uh people, they're saying yes uh development is good. It has to be put in a in context.

[00:36:17]I've given the example Dennis say fund you go and start a business and they go they go and start a business of of uh charging people to play pool.

[00:36:30]>> Yes.

[00:36:30]>> Then when those people are playing pool for no reason the police break in and beat those people up >> and beat those people up. We are building magnificent highways. So you are telling me you dualized kennel to Marua so that the police cruisers and subarus can quickly reach villages in central Kenya, pick young people there and uh you know abduct them and disappear.

[00:36:57]>> That is not why we do development. So the the the argument that we have been trying to to sell is that uh everything that the government does has to be done in the context of those six essential values. If it is building a stadium we want that stadium to be built but in a transparent manner.

[00:37:18]>> Uh you know there characters who argue when when was still around they used to say has can never disagree with his boss and we used to disagree. Do you remember the entire story of Adani? Yes.

[00:37:30]>> Yes. Muz was very clear in his mind that uh uh the PPP way is the best way to achieve development especially when you have uh constraints in budgetary constraints a country such as ours right >> and uh so when we were making all this noise about Adani he was a bit upset and he called us to a meeting and we told him Jacom >> first of all you are the one who taught us that you have to do everything transparently you know that if if if in fact the PPP law itself requires Dennis that if there is a there has to be a public place where you list all the uh national priority projects that you are seeking partnership with. Yeah, they don't do that.

[00:38:13]>> Now the whole world must know that Kenya is looking for uh a partner to dualize Mombasa to Nairobi >> or to Malaba. We want an SG extension to Kisumu or to Malaba. We want a new airport. Nobody disputes that but it has to be done in a transparent manner. So we we fought with Muz and I remember he was very upset. He saying oh you guys are discouraging investment. We said Jacob we are not discouraging investment. We are saying can it be done in accordance with the law in accordance with the uh transparency tenants because article 10 of your constitution requires it.

[00:38:48]>> Requires it.

[00:38:48]>> Yeah. So those of us who are saying uh oh you just keep quiet let let R build the stadium.

[00:38:55]>> Yes. We are the ones who are going to pay pay for that ROA stadium, the Talanta stadium. We have to see it done in a transparent manner. Let there be open tendering. Let there be value for money because if you look at the costs and the auditor general has already flagged it that there's been cost escalation of over 10 billion shillings.

[00:39:14]We want healthare to work. We want healthare to work. But the procurement of that healthare system has to be done in a transparent manner. There has to be value for money for Kenyans, you know.

[00:39:23]And uh these are the conversations we having with uh the people. They need to understand that >> dictators build roads.

[00:39:33]>> Yes. Yes, they do.

[00:39:35]>> We have visited their countries. We have seen magnificent highways like three three tire roads.

[00:39:40]>> You know >> Democrats also build roads. M >> but it is only one of those two people who will also not kill you and your children >> who will respect the value of human life who will respect your human rights who will respect your freedom to come to a radio station and speak freely to respect your freedom to post something on social media and just go home you know >> now taking all of those things into consideration and looking at the wave that obviously is being ridden at this moment and where you're still saying that we will go to other parts of the country to hear what people have to say to understand what people actually want >> to explain to them what the rule of law is >> you know how people are Ed >> they're looking for the next thing what does this mean and very clearly >> you're already being called the next presidential candidate >> are you going to run for president >> you know do what we want to do is to build this movement uh to a level where It can be consequential h it is not about suna >> you know I just found myself thrust there and people are singing season across the country >> it's not my doing you know but we want to build a movement it it it it should not be about me we want to build a movement that is consequential that if we decided that tomorrow we are running do you would win that election >> without question >> you know I am one of the people who also believe that we need critical mass in leadership. If it is just you at the patch there running around the country singing, it's very easy to be knocked off the patch. You know what I want us to do is to build this movement to be consequential. We want to be consequential in elections in elections of MCAs in elections of uh members of parliament because part of the problem is not just with Kasongo it is also with our parliament the people who end up there. Sometimes you sit in that Senate and you look across the people who are sitting there with you and you wonder I mean these counties don't they have any better uh people to put forward. So if a path was built, if a path was built and it turned out that the movement says that would accept it, >> we will cross that bridge when we get there. But I want people to understand that it cannot be about Cifuna. Okay?

[00:42:05]>> It is about our country, you know. And this is why we feel very very honored.

[00:42:10]We feel very humbled when we go to these places and these places and people show up. Uh Mombasa was major. We went to Nakuru and it was massive. We went to Kitangela. We went to Busousia. We went to Kakamega. Despite of all the intimidation and the threats, our people broke through cordons of goons and and the police and we still had meetings.

[00:42:29]You know, it tells you that there is a certain yearning in the country for um a different narrative, a different face, you know. So, we the only assurance we can give people is that we will not disappoint them. We know the task that is ahead of us. Um we know the sort of expectation that we've built. I have said previously that those of us who have been singing must go >> must be available to go him >> you know so we are not going to run away from responsibility. I have also said publicly that in 2027 the overriding uh uh national emergency is not to make Sifuna a senator.

[00:43:11]>> Yeah.

[00:43:12]>> It is to rescue the country.

[00:43:14]>> It is to rescue the country. So we will cross that bridge when we get there. But we cannot run away >> from the call of the people. We cannot run away.

[00:43:22]>> Yeah.

[00:43:24]>> As the SG of ODM, things are not looking rosy at ODM. If you've said it's not a must that you be at ODM, but as well um there is insistence on ODM to operate within the law. In the event that things uh do not work out in ODM, are we looking at Linda Moni being a political party or is Linda Moni a political party?

[00:43:45]>> No, Linda Moni is not a political party.

[00:43:47]You know, these guys just they they surprise me and they shock me as well.

[00:43:52]>> You know, I've been in ODM long enough to know that there were always movements within ODM.

[00:43:57]>> There were always movements. They I remember there was one called uh what was it called? ODM Fresh.

[00:44:04]There are others running around calling themselves g. We have always had this uh movements within within ODM. There is no requirement in the constitution of ODM that we must all do things together. In [clears throat] fact, what Muz used to do, you would find that the the young people are doing something in the coast, the women are doing something in western, there is another team running around doing registration of voters. I mean that is what gives vibrancy to the party, you know. So when I hear people saying, "Oh, we can only move together."

[00:44:33]I'm I'm just shocked because I don't understand their motivation in saying, "And by the way, when they were planning their rallies of this Linda ground or these other activities that they do, they are the ones who started by excluding us. They never used to involve us. And number two, knew we had a way of doing things in ODM where the activities would be funded by the party itself centrally." You know even when we we were low on resources he would take his own money and put it in the ODM account.

[00:45:02]He would not give you directly at this is for for the bi-election in Bonjari.

[00:45:07]No he would put it in in the institution because Baba believed in the institution of ODM you know and then we would sit there as leadership and say we are going to run this activity together. We going to do this together and that's how we used to work. Now this new format where they just decide they're going to do their own things uh we also have the capacity because we also political leaders we also have support. So we decided >> okay let us go and make our case to the people and the case that we are making is that h by the way it's never too late to do the right thing.

[00:45:41]>> True.

[00:45:42]>> It's never too late to do the right thing. They know all of us know what the right thing is. All of us know that the ODM base, the ODM supporters do not support William R's re-election. He is bad for the country. Everybody agrees.

[00:45:55]So why are you forcing this decision on the membership of ODM? You know, all we are saying is this uh that we we you know I made a commitment I made a commitment to my boss at his own funeral that it would not be to wreck his party.

[00:46:10]They are the ones pushing us to the periphery. There is nothing if you sit down and look at the raft of accusations at least the ones that they have filed at the PPDT. There is nothing there.

[00:46:20]There is nothing there that I have done differently from when Baba was there.

[00:46:24]And M had explained to them that we are a democratic party. You must have room for divergent views and I have a responsibility as SG to read resolutions of the organs of the party. Now if I am the one in fact I I was the one who was I used to write those resolutions and read them myself I know there is no resolution of ODM to support William R.

[00:46:50]>> Okay.

[00:46:51]>> So if I go out there and I repeat that position there is nothing wrong I've done you know. So these guys what what what they do is uh they know what they get from William R. H some of us Dennis uh we feel that uh uh we've been blessed enough the people of Nairobi honored me >> and elected me as a senator of uh their county.

[00:47:15]>> There [clears throat] are certain parks that come with that. I didn't have anything that had my name on it in this city. But because they elected me as senate of Nairobi, I was given a mortgage by parliament. I have a house.

[00:47:28]>> I I came to this city with nothing. You know, you get there and they give you a car grant 8 million to buy a car. I have a comfortable vehicle. I don't want anything else. Like there is a level of greed that I see in people. Then I wonder like how much is enough?

[00:47:45]>> But they've equally it's equally been said that your um Linda Moni is being bankrolled by Urugua.

[00:47:53]>> Yeah. They have been saying that all this time, but they have never demonstrated. They have never shown you the evidence. You know, you heard Mman saying that we as political leaders are under 24-hour surveillance. That M knows who I sleep with and when I sleep with them.

[00:48:08]>> You know, so he surely must see me receiving money from Uru. Why can't he show the country Zuna and Wuru exchanging money?

[00:48:17]>> Yeah, because and me I will show you how people have funded our movement. We have a pay bill number on our website. they are called and I can show you the phone that has the empessa messages. We pay our DJ from those 10 bob shillings that people send to us. You know we have a a a a gentleman called DS >> Jog Dorog is a person who used to supply uh or or provide the DS and sound for a he decided that he's going to work with us. We agreed on a flat rate for him and he goes everywhere. He was the one who did vig in the rain in the darkness he was able to assemble that thing disassemble it and assemble it again in it's it's what do you know I can show you how members of parliament in the lindi group contribute money our empa statements these people have access to all these things our treasuri we all send him money you can see sending 200,000 tootsi for the rally in kisubu Bro, and what we what we spend money on?

[00:49:22]What do we spend money on?

[00:49:24]>> We spend money on the stage, the sound, and uh maybe security. That's it.

[00:49:30]>> On average, if you if you ask me, our budget for Kisumu was 3 million shillings. Do I need Uhuru to give me 3 million shillings? We have friends, my brother, we are members of parliament.

[00:49:40]The the the entire complement of the what is it called? Linda Moni, we have over 15 members of parliament. Each of them giving you 100,000 shillings is 1.5 million shillings. And there are people who give us money who if if I said they give us money [laughter] there been problems. It's >> they will be shocked. It's not who >> it's not. So you talk about obvious there's a comport now of support.

[00:50:06]>> Yeah.

[00:50:07]>> And there's this there's this power that is around all of this. It's interesting that we we use the word power. But then how do you take that? Because the things that you speak about today that people should live within a country whereby they have the right to not be disappeared whereby their children can go to school that you can walk into a medical facility promised by government >> that you can actually get the healthcare that you require that you don't have to go to your senator and say please help me with 15,000 shillings because I can't do 1 2 3.

[00:50:37]>> How do you take that need combine it with this inertia that is clearly taking the country >> and turn it into a decision? Because the word that you mentioned which I've written down is that you must be consequential.

[00:50:48]>> Yeah.

[00:50:49]>> And in order to move anything politically, we know in this country you must be consequential with the numbers.

[00:50:56]>> How are you going to take this >> beyond just a spirit of fever >> and turn it into something that will be consequential.

[00:51:06]>> Yeah.

[00:51:06]>> If that's what Kenyans are saying they want.

[00:51:08]>> Now you see we were taught by Raer that politics is persuasion. M >> uh we believe in our ability to persuade uh and we hope that the arguments that we are selling will make sense to the people of Kenya.

[00:51:24]>> Um there is no way of knowing do until the ballots are counted >> uh whether it is your message has resonated with with the people but we can feel because we also are recipients of information. We we also consume information. We can hear the people saying that they are suffering. We can hear the teachers for instance saying they would rather go back to min. They don't want this shiny business. I I speak to police officers.

[00:51:51]Police officers, they don't shout, but they whisper.

[00:51:55]Then they're [laughter] like, we can see they are also suffering. M >> we are saying when you promise you must deliver because the promise was for universal health coverage that people would get free healthare that was the promise we never thought that there would be limies or be told and you remember the argument that William R sold us because we used to pay less than a thousand shillings as NHF and he said it is not fair for a person like me whoa who earns a million shillings of taxpayers money to pay a thousand shillings for for for medical cover. Can we squeeze you more so that those people who don't have anything can also get so okay I pay upwards of 30,000 now >> for healthare and the promise was and who are the guests of honor in those haram it is >> so me I sat down and said okay it makes sense if you are going to remove from me that burden of attending haram then it makes sense for you to take 30k from me.

[00:53:16]>> Yes.

[00:53:17]>> Now what is the the actual situation on the ground? Totally different. You listen to the teachers, they are complaining. Uh you listen to the police officers, everybody who's been on boarded, the facilities are complaining.

[00:53:29]They are not the SH reimbursements are not coming on time. Uh you remember the case of uh uh the hospital in Mumyas where I was born. uh you know a hospital shutting down under heavy debt because sh is not remitting uh monies to them.

[00:53:45]So we believe we believe that uh and by the way in even even this recent fiasco with fuel.

[00:53:53]>> I personally believe that you can tell the people the truth and they can still love you and they can still vote for you.

[00:53:59]>> Like if if for instance this roof is about to collapse, why am I lying to you that we are all safe?

[00:54:05]>> Yeah. Mh.

[00:54:06]>> Why can't I just tell you the truth that by the way do we need to evacuate? We need to move this thing.

[00:54:12]>> So we have a leadership that lies about our our true situation. Our true situation. We had we had countries taking precautions saying oh we are going to work from home prime ministers dropping some of their entourage you saw people at least taking steps to tell the the country that because of the war that is happening in the Middle East we are going to be strained when it comes to oil supply but you have somebody somebody with two weeks before he slaps you with a 40 shilling increase in diesel he's telling you h everything is fine just chill I have taken measures to make sure that you guys are 2 weeks later he's slapping with 40. So personally where I come from and the the school of politics that we have gone through is that you can be honest with people you don't have to mislead the public for you to earn their support. So we have told the the people that it will not it is not going to be easy. Nobody's under any illusions. You know personally I am not under no illusion that kicking out an incumbent is [clears throat] going to be an easy job. But it is the call of our generation. We have to do this >> at whatever cost. You know >> also the parts of the country where you will go are just as important.

[00:55:25]>> There are two parts where folks are asking will you come and hear the views of people? One of those is central Kenya. Yes.

[00:55:31]>> The other is Rift Valley >> um beyond Nakuru.

[00:55:35]>> Yes.

[00:55:35]>> Now will you go and what are you expecting? Now this is this is this is what I want to assure people that we are not running around to be uh leaders of a section of Kenya. No no no no >> all of Kenya must be open to all of us >> to all of the ideas that they have and uh uh I I give the assurance that we will go everywhere. In fact, the reason why you see us uh we started in the traditional basis of ODM is because there is a uh a fight to be settled in ODM.

[00:56:10]>> We need first of all uh for everyone to understand >> or for us as leadership to understand where the core support of ODM is.

[00:56:17]>> Are they one term or two term? And the verdict from the coast to Ma Mahaland to Nakuru to Kisum is that there is no support for William in those places. And I go and I ask them.

[00:56:37]So we will go everywhere and the only thing that uh we we ask is that uh we should be allowed you know like these threats and intimidation they are all unnecessary. Um even if one day ends up as a leader who has a so-called stronghold wherever that stronghold will be I should not be the one standing up and saying oh and who cannot come there Dennis cannot come there so and so cannot come there to say their peace let us go to Eloret >> we will go to Eldor I can assure you we will go to toana we will go to Mandera we will go to Wajia we will go to Masabit we will go to Gisa because we appreciate that Kenya is not just one corner >> and whatever those people do you know do there is a way you can uh speak to political leadersh >> if for instance you don't agree with when comes just stay at home >> in fact my biggest fear and the biggest fear of every political leader is to go and arrange a rally stage >> that is the biggest political statement it is not being beaten Yeah.

[00:57:50]>> No, there is no place for violence.

[00:57:52]>> Somebody has said something.

[00:57:53]>> Yeah.

[00:57:54]>> Okay. We you you've you've been with us for some time and I definitely say we're grateful that you've done that. Our last question um at this point, >> yes, >> the words that you speak are very people centric people of Kenya >> and uh one of the things that you've also mentioned time without number is that you cannot make promises to people that you will not keep.

[00:58:12]>> Correct.

[00:58:13]>> You will not say that you'll be president today. You will not say that you want to run for president tomorrow.

[00:58:16]But one of the things that you have said is that the people of Kenya and what they need and want must be established.

[00:58:22]Correct.

[00:58:22]>> Is that something that folks will be able to hold you to come rain come sunshine?

[00:58:25]>> Come rain come sunshine.

[00:58:27]>> That one I can I can tell you for free because uh we have a responsibility to do. I mean uh none of us planned to be in this situation that we are in right now but we find ourselves here and uh we can hear what the country is saying. We can hear the call. We can hear the yarning. I mean at the very minimum you have a responsibility to answer uh to the call that we can hear out there uh we will not make promises that we cannot keep.

[00:58:55]>> We will accept that things will be tough, things will be difficult. In fact, I feel bad for the next administration because if you see the sort of things that these guys are doing right now, they have securitized everything. They have taken debts on everything for like the next 15 years, you know. So, it will be very tough. Uh but we will we will be true. I mean we will just tell you and you will be with us there when we are trying to solve some of those problems.

[00:59:23]There is no reason to to not be open with with the people as I've given you the example. If this roof is collapsing and I know it's collapsing why would I just sit here and allow you to die?

[00:59:35]>> Yeah I can tell you this thing is going to but we we want to thank the the country. We want to thank everybody who has been uh showing up. Uh we we want to assure you that we come in peace. We want to be able to sell our our agenda, our proposals for the country. And I've said the country does not have a hardware problem. The country has a software problem. If we can persuade you guys that it is the software, it is the values in the constitution. It is about your freedom. It's about democracy. It's about social justice. It's about rule of law. Can I just demonstrate that rule of law point and then we close? You know we have been asked for instance how do you know how jobs are created and do >> the government by itself cannot employ all of us you need the private sector to have confidence in your country to be able to put money here now the [clears throat] rule of law is such that >> it's so important and critical Dennis >> if uh the story has been told of people till I think looking for a headquarters for Africa then they propose Kenya they propose Nairobi you come here you look at a piece of land in Upper Hill.

[01:00:41]Immediately, first of all, there's all those uh people who just hold land for speculation. Immediately they hear that a big company such as that is looking for land. They triple the prices. Then you go and conduct a search at the lands, you find that the title is written.

[01:00:57]The next day you hear by the time you're putting up your investment you hear oh by the way you don't have confidence that if you take that dispute to the courts >> do you know why these big companies when they do up contracts they say arbitration will be held in London because you don't have faith that the judge [laughter] rule of law is such that and even if the judge is not bribed And they give an order saying this shamba belongs to >> but now the senator of Nairobi also has a has a >> not a title you know this this so all these values that we speak about they influence decision Why would somebody put money in a in an economy where the president of the republic can demand a share >> and if you don't give them they shut you down. We have many many stories of enterprises that have been built here.

[01:02:10]We need people to have confidence in the country that you can put an investment here and nobody will hustle you and if we don't repair that we are not going to solve the jobs problem for our young people. I was lucky that we finished school when we had a proper administration with Baba and coalition government. When I tell young people that I meet that we used to be employed when we were in the classroom in fourth year.

[01:02:34]>> Yeah. I I remember even law firms law firms in Nairobi you know when we were in law school in Nairobi university >> for as long as you made it to the top 20 they used to call it the deans list.

[01:02:45]There would be three or four law firms saying give me the number one person.

[01:02:49]Give me up to 20. We used to be employed in the classrooms.

[01:02:53]>> Right now you have people graduating 8 years. Yeah.

[01:02:56]>> Graduates of education. They never get an opportunity to be employed. And then uh because we have destroyed the system of meritocracy, the president takes the TSC letters >> and distributes them amongst members of parliament and they say MPs.

[01:03:14]So cifa never gets those letters >> and uh >> I have cousins I have relatives who are graduates 8 years 10 years who also need those TSC letters. So when I go home for Christmas, my mother looks at me and says, "Where is so the country we want to build is to restore meritocracy that for as long as you are qualified, you don't need to know a member of parliament Christmas."

[01:03:40]>> No, no, no. We want to destroy that entire ecosystem >> to get a departure from that.

[01:03:45]>> Senator Edwin Funa and ODM Secretary General, thank you for being here with us this morning. Definitely to get some insights into some of these things.

[01:03:52]people are going to hold you accountable to the words that you speak.

[01:03:55]>> I am ready and I want to thank you for providing a refuge for this conversations when others are shutting us down. Uh and I'm happy and I'm hoping and praying that you will continue to be an independent media house that allows all voices to come and sit on this seat and express themselves. Thank you. Uh thank you very much for that.

[01:04:14]>> We'll finish the way we started. Welcome home.

[01:04:19]Our [laughter] friends have now been able to step up on our behalf and till the next one. Thank you. Good morning.

[01:04:36]>> This is the situation room. The only way to start your