Hotter than July: Can electrification save humanity from soaring heat? • FRANCE 24 English

追加: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]Europe's in meltdown and it's not even the month of June yet. A not so merry month of May as record highs explode under a heat dome that's drifted north from the Sahara Desert after the frying pan of an energy crisis, the fire of a heatwave, forcing a reset by the same politicians who pandered to those who complained about the cost and red tape of recent energy transition policies. Enter Emanuel Mcron. France's president was precisely one of those politicians who'd seged from summits to make the planet great again to cuts and subsidies for homeowners and moratoriums on going green. Now flanked by captains of industry on Tuesday unveiling plans to turbocharge what almost sounds like the electrification of well everything.

[00:00:48]We'll hear about heat pumps, charging stations, electric vehicle factories here in the land of nuclear power. More broadly, can industry and technology come to the rescue of humanity? If blocking the straight of Hormuz is all it takes to threaten livelihoods the world over, it's worth asking about the sustainability of the alternative. An alternative that features a scramble for copper, cobalt, uranium, and whatever else can be extracted in the name of growth. Today, in the France 24 debate, we're asking what to do when it's May and it's hotter than July. the title of his new book in French, a play on words that roughly translates as talking about climate without spoiling the atmosphere.

[00:01:28]Is that >> pretty much right?

[00:01:29]>> That's a French translation.

[00:01:30]>> France men, professor at the Ashes Business School. Previously, uh you were the uh lead uh writer on the 2023 edition of the IPCC's UN climate science report. Thanks for being with us.

[00:01:43]>> Pleasure. Thanks as well to Anna Kiti, director of the climate economics chair at Pari Dofin University. Good to see you. Uh he is an energy analyst with the Sapiens Institute think.

[00:01:57]>> No, no more Sapiens Institute. I joined I joined the think tank, the millionaire, you remember?

[00:02:03]>> Okay. The millionaire think tank. Thanks for the correction. Apologies. No problem. The millionaire think tank. uh Philipe Charles and from Hamburg in Germany, Stefan Akutz, professor of sociology at the University of Hamburg.

[00:02:15]In a piece that you co-authored for LRIN, you argue that the climate crisis has become a crisis of democracy. We'll perhaps ask you a bit about that later.

[00:02:25]Thanks for being with us.

[00:02:28]>> Thank you for having me.

[00:02:29]>> You can, by the way, always listen, that's right, listen to the France 24 debate wherever podcasts are streamed.

[00:02:36]Yeah. Date line, Santa, Portugal. That's northeast of the capital. The mercury this Wednesday, surging to 39° Celsius. Elsewhere, the heat and uh high winds uh raising the risk of uh uh very early season wildfires in Portugal. Over in Lisbon, well, the tourists taking drastic measures with pina colada consumption starting long before noon.

[00:03:04]>> So hot. It's absolutely boiling. Um so so no it's uncharacteristic at this time of year.

[00:03:10]>> And you are enjoying the pina colada >> very 11 o'clock in the morning. Yes.

[00:03:17]>> All right. Not sure that pinñina colada is the answer to the heat. But uh fran should we be surprised at these temperatures in the month of May?

[00:03:26]>> Yes and no. Because I mean if we are realistic this is exactly what the climate scenarios those of the IPCC and of other scientific bodies had predicted. I think it's a bit surprising that this comes so early but we knew already that one of the key impacts of climate change in Europe would be to make heat waves more intense more frequent and also earlier in the year and also later in the year. We might get one in September or in October >> might get one in September or October.

[00:03:55]Now of course uh also the news today is Paris and its surroundings added to the list of French deakons that are under a code orange heat warning. That's one step up from yellow. A heat wave in May doesn't mean by the way that necessarily that they'll be off the chart temperatures all summer. Uh but as you heard Frimemen say it could be erratic.

[00:04:15]It's alarming to see the variation. This is compared to what's been the national average uh over the years. That's the line you see in white. Uh, the heat is on, particularly for those who have to work. Brian Quinn's report starts in Paris's third aris.

[00:04:33]>> In this French bakery, temperatures have climbed over 30° C.

[00:04:38]Workers prepare dough in shape loaves in the stifling heat. But working the oven is by far the most challenging task. The bakery owner has reworked schedules, hoping to take some of the burden off his employees.

[00:04:53]We tried to start working earlier in the morning to have as little work as possible in the afternoon. We've also reduced production a little so we have a bit less variety.

[00:05:02]>> But even upstairs, the staff is having trouble managing.

[00:05:08]The heat from the oven rises. There's no ventilation, no AC. Yes, we're suffering. It's too much. I get headaches and get very tired.

[00:05:21]>> To protect workers in heat waves, French employers are required to adapt work conditions and hours, as well as provide drinking water and protective equipment.

[00:05:30]Life-saving measures welcomed by roofers, construction workers, and delivery drivers across the country.

[00:05:39]Here in Bordeaux, this construction site is taking the maximum precautions.

[00:05:45]They gave us one liter water bottles.

[00:05:47]There's a 100 stations where we can fill them up. We start at 6:30 and finish at 2:15 with 20-minut breaks.

[00:05:56]>> And this server adapts the best she can while waiting on her tables.

[00:06:00]>> Instead of blouses, we're in t-shirts to deal with the heat. But we'll get through it. We have fans running in anyway. There's no other option.

[00:06:09]According to a recent UN study, when temperatures climb above 32 degrees, worker productivity drops by 40%.

[00:06:17]>> So t-shirts instead of blouses, uh that's all you can do. Adapt to the new normal. And by the way, we see Bordo where the heat is high. It's high in places like Britney where they're not used to to this kind of temperatures. Uh this is part of the negative records that we are accumulating over over the last years and uh regularly we are catched up by the reality that is saying this kind of events will become part of our lives. But then is adaptation just giving more drinking water or uh uh smoothing the conditions the working conditions? Um I mean by visual inspections also the places uh the bakery that we were looking at it doesn't seem something that is in compliance with uh energy efficiency which is one of the way also to protect uh all along the year um the places from with a good insulation and good also circulation of uh um of air and uh possibly also air conditioning. um a way >> air conditioning in a bakery.

[00:07:26]>> It it is it is possible to play with uh the hot air and the cold air uh which is one of the way to decrease the overall temperature. But it is a way also to understand how we can intervene in buildings in order to have conditions stables over the year and to be protected really in a in a robust way which is not just a patch when the uh high temperatures intervene.

[00:07:56]>> So build a better bulri that's the answer Philip chales.

[00:07:59]>> Yes. I think that uh more generally uh adaptation to climate is today the poor side of uh I would say global warming we inject practically 95% of the money in decarbonation and only 5% in adaptation we know that uh both are absolutely necessary but I think that as uh attenuation is relatively slow we will discuss after especially with respect to electrification which which is absolutely necessary but relatively slow. We have absolutely to inject much more uh money in in adaptation. I will I will give you for instance today I saw that the temperature in Vansen was 6° lower than in central Paris because uh so iter so it means that concrete bricks and bum is really the worst things to do with respect to to climate and so vegetitalization for instance uh is a is a great and simple idea but it takes time and each time we discover a phenomenon that is now very well known and unfortunately uh there is no sufficient adaptation plan from my point of view.

[00:09:16]>> All right. So before we talk about this electrification plans Stephanie could do you agree with Philip Charales uh spend more on adaptation less on decarbonation if you want to have an impact immediately.

[00:09:32]I mean um as far as I understood um what was said it's not to spend less on one and more on the other but to spend more on adaptation and I I couldn't agree more on that point. Um what we're entering in is um really a zone um that was predicted to a large degree by the climate models but that is also at the same time um now feeling very new. So we have to we we don't know exactly where um which events will strike first. We don't know exactly um what measures help in what um circumstances. So we have to plan but at the same time um we have to get used to this new um climate condition um by um building technical supports like um uh heating or cooling but also for example by thinking about how to um uh re uh build a agricultures that are adapted to uh this changing climate. And this is why we think we should really think about it as a mutation as something that is at the same time in globing at the same time concerning adaptation the way that our societies are built materially but also um uh the transformation side um so the way that we transform our economies in order to become climate neutral. So these two go together and I think it's very important to think them together.

[00:10:53]All right, let's talk about transforming. Uh the answer for France's president to go electric, uh thousands of firms, big and small, roped in on Tuesday by uh uh President Mechon to help double uh electricity's uh share to 60% of the country's energy mix by 2030.

[00:11:12]Luke Frago has that story.

[00:11:16]>> For Emanuel Macron, industrial partners are vital for France's decarbonization.

[00:11:20]The French president announced a series of investments into electrification on Tuesday, starting with car maker Stalantis.

[00:11:27]>> Stalantis >> Stantis and Maloo is set to invest over a billion euros in new funding to produce new generations of electric vehicles from 2029 onwards. This represents a commitment to this strategy producing electric vehicles in France and introducing new models.

[00:11:46]The French government unveiled a road map towards lessening France's reliance on fossil fuels earlier this year, seeking to majorly boost the use of electricity by the middle of next decade, with French manufacturers expected to produce 400,000 electric vehicles by next year and a million by 2030. Macron also announced that France was aiming to deploy a total of 400,000 charging sites on the same timeline.

[00:12:10]State energy company EDF is also involved, announcing an initial investment of €240 million to help industrial sites make the electricity transition, as well as help homes to purchase versatile yet pricey heat pumps, which come with average installation costs of 15,000.

[00:12:29]>> The French people will choose, and I believe that we must trust them because it's good for purchasing power, it's good for competitiveness, and it's good for the country's independence.

[00:12:39]France is doing better than many countries when it comes to energy prices thanks to its expansive network of nuclear reactors. With the war in Iran about to spill into its fourth month, fuel costs have rarely been higher. So France, these announcements made Tuesday at a time when France's state coffers are empty. Uh Muan making big announcements, roping in the private sector. Um your thoughts on what you saw? Were you pleased with what you heard?

[00:13:06]>> Yes, well done. Uh I think this is very good news. This is not just very good news for the climate but also very good news for the industry, very good news for the country. Uh what is uh it's good news for the climate because obviously France's electric electricity mix is already very low carbon is almost uh zero carbon and therefore the more we will develop electrification for cars, for industry, for housing and for heating the better for the climate. It is also good obviously for the industry and for the economy. And what is striking is that the reason why Emanuel Macron announced this right now is not because of the heat wave in France is because of the situation is the rate of rumors. is because this is everyone realizes that depending on fossil fuels also harms the competitiveness of companies is also a massive jubilal achilis heel and therefore the electrification plan is also a plan for sovereignty and competitiveness and yes on top of that it's good for the climate but I think it's interesting to see oh the priority has shifted we're doing this not only for the climate but also for the immediate benefits that the economy and the country will be able you sees >> okay let's talk politics about this you heard the engine use the word sovereignty in that report but of course >> purchasing power competitiveness that is the very same argument that were the key reasons for the backlash we reduce the ambition on the energy transition because we thought we had other priorities the purchasing power the geopolical tension and we thought well you know the green deal and all of that we'll do that later but now we realize with the current geopolical situation that those same reasons that made us lower our ambitions are the real reasons why we should accelerate.

[00:14:51]>> But if the future is now, that means doing uh business with those who do it best and we saw it with the announcement last week by uh Stellantis of a new car factory in Britany uh which is going to be in partnership with China's Dongfang.

[00:15:08]>> Yes, I mean we will need to build partnerships with China today. China is the leader of the energy transition worldwide. I mean for every euro spent on the energy transition worldwide there are two euros that are spent in China.

[00:15:23]This is literally staggering and I think the key is indeed to build not just partner partnerships not just with China but also with India with Mexico with Indonesia with the emerging countries that will be the heavy weight of the economy of tomorrow.

[00:15:38]>> Tip chales you agree you have to make partnerships where you can. I agree with with what Frana was was saying. First of all, I think what is quite important is to know that the energy transition is not really fossil fuel to uh electricity. It's fossil fuel usage to electricity usage. So it means that very often we see the transition as a transition from fossil fuel to electricity. But what support this transition is above all the equipment which use electricity. So electric car, heat pumps and so on. And this is what is relatively complex because uh I would say that unfortunately uh electrical usage are less convenient than uh than fossil usage and also more expensive currently and agree also with France that uh the big the key problem today is that most of the electricity equipment are manufactured in China and I'm afraid that unfortunately we will not uh recover the difference between Europe and China extremely difficult depending uh on the efficiency of China which has relatively uh 15 years in advance with respect to to Europe. So despite this talk of homegrown industry uh at that press conference on Tuesday, is it just a case of trading in dependency on M East oil and gas for Chinese uh electrical uh rare minerals and knowhow in the EV sector and other places.

[00:17:24]>> I I agree on the arguments that have been um have been discussed, but I would like to introduce a nuance. Um this um plan is about the supply side. So building ahead of demand uh creating new industrial opportunities possibly creating joint ventures and partnership with those who have a strong con advantage in these technologies. But at the end of the day, who is going to buy electric cars um heat pumps uh and PV um I mean it's the demand is people is u as you say PMI so um and the question is will the demand really follow what we have observed so far is that there are important barriers to shift also to this new paradigm these are related to the cost of the investment. I mean today to to to buy an IT pump uh for a mediumsiz household is something that is I mean quite important um 20,000 um we have to explain the advantage that is going to be longterm.

[00:18:44]Um the same comes with electric vehicles. Um so the question is also how to include in the narrative the demand side and people who is going to change their usage and the second thing is we have also to understand what we need in our economies whether it's just replacing one car that is uh with diesel with one car which is electric or generally understanding uh where consumption is going too. I mean, maybe we can do also something a little bit of sufficiency or sobriety.

[00:19:24]Uh, which is I think still something useful.

[00:19:26]>> And that's the tricky bit about capitalism is you you can't tell people what to buy >> exactly when and how much this is going to cost and which are the advantages. I I think that when we have made the uh the uh the first wave of electrification that was uh after the second war uh when we have created the networks um the the the the overview was very different but today we have to explain more which are the advantages in the long term and to understand what we can do and what we can give up.

[00:20:02]>> All right. So yeah, and by the way, you heard Anacretti mention not everyone's always enthralled with electric. On Tuesday, shares in Ferrari dropped more than 5% after the Italian luxury car maker introduced the Luche, that's light in Italian, its new 550,000 euro electric model. And even though the model was presented to none other than the the pope himself, motorheads failing to see the light uh with the luche uh they don't like the design. They're not they're not convinced by an electric model. Uh Stefani Koot that that curly will resonate for for many viewers in Germany where where you are where the far-right AFD has made inroads uh by uh warning v voters you're they're going to take away your your cars. they're they're going to force you to uh uh change your boiler. Uh it's been a winning argument for the far right.

[00:21:01]>> Yes. Um I think the the climate question um through this question of cars, through the question of renewables, through um the question of coal also before um has really um come to the four come to the center of the political debate in Germany as in other countries.

[00:21:16]Um by the way uh we remember um Donald Trump um who came uh to power with the slogan drill drill drill and who promised to bring back coal. So um these questions are really touching the heart of our um uh industrial economies. Um, in Germany that's cars. In France also partly in Germany it was coal. the coal phase out is decided. Um but now uh who knows uh might be put into question again because of this general tendency um that we're seeing because of this wipe shift because of this backlash um uh but in general what we have been seeing over the last years has been a steady move in Germany as in other countries towards electrification towards renewables um etc. What we have not seen um and that is really one of the big problems is a decisive industrial policy that would support um German um industrial uh um the German.

[00:22:12]>> So do do you think Stefan that both both the French >> both the French and the Germans lack the knowhow uh for for what's at stake? You talk about the need not for a transition but a transformation.

[00:22:27]>> Yeah. Yeah, I think we have if we have believed in Europe that we can leave um this transformation to the markets that we just um need some technologies um and then we can import them um from China if they're um cheaper and that's what happened in 2010 2011 when Europe had a very strong um renewables industry and um decided to sacrifice it in order to um import um a lowcost uh Chinese um solar PV for example. So we really have to combine what China does good on this side is to combine a policy of um internal demand with um a policy of um industrial support by the state through infrastructures through um uh programs through also um money that is given to um through loans uh through uh local um governments etc that encourage production in um certain areas. And I think this is very important because if we think a bit of it not as a transition but as a transformation then we have to think of the popular support of this um change which has to be renewed at every instance and if you lose jobs in Europe because of this transition then it will backfire. So need for heavier subsidies.

[00:23:45]Uh there's the on this point we didn't hear that much in Tuesday's announcement France >> and clearly without state subsidies for example most of the Chinese companies producing the equipment necessary for electrification would go bankrupt. I mean the solar panel industry in China is heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. So the key question I think in Europe is are we willing to support our industries that are active in strategic sectors in innovation in decarbonization and potentially also with regard to the defense industry which is also of course a strategic priority to Europe. What kind of support can those industries count on? The problem is that government's pockets are empty at the moment, which is one of the reasons why I think we need to mobilize private savings as well to support those industries and to convince people to invest in European companies. We have 35 trillion euros in savings in Europe.

[00:24:43]About onethird of those savings are currently funding the US economy rather than eur rather than the European economy.

[00:24:50]>> So how do you how do you bring that money back Philipe chales? I think that you have really two leverage to encourage uh and to provoke the electrification. The first one is effectively subsiding equipment and the second and I most encourage that one is that the price of electricity is much much lower than the price of uh oil and gas. Uh today the price of oil and gas.

[00:25:16]It's interesting to know that contrarily that's what we think the price of oil today is not so expensive. When you applied the inflation from the 60s to now to oil you arrive to€2 per liter. So it means that oil is not so expensive >> and when you compare with the 1973 oil chuck I mean the price of oil has literally skyrocketed which is not the case right now. And so from my point of view, the best leverage, of course I'm liberal, but the best leverage to encourage the electrification is not to fund the equipment, but to lower the price of electricity and to inject. I would like I dream about a kilowatt hour at some things between 10 and 15 c.

[00:26:04]>> Okay. But let me ask >> let me ask Stefan on this. uh if the price of electricity is lower, well, people are just going to leave the light on more, right? How how do you get people to conserve energy? Because again, >> there's limited resources on this planet.

[00:26:21]>> Yeah. I think uh lowering the price of electricity not only um does not address the problem of creating an industrial base at home, which we need. Um it also of course um creates an incentive for people to use more energy. And we know that we are not only in a climate crisis but we are in a planetary crisis in which several other planetary boundaries are crossed. Um we know that plastic pollution is a problem. We know that ocean acidification is a problem. We know that we construct too much um cement um etc. So there is um not only uh a question of decarbonizing our economies which is um the most important um challenge of our times I think um but we also have to think of all the other planetary crisis and not to worsen these other planetary crisis. So I think lowering the price of energy in general today is the wrong signal. I would um think that we have to make the comparative price of electricity compared to other um forms of energy much lower. But um probably that does not mean that we lower the price of electricity but that other forms of energy consumption have to be more expensive um or have to be um >> okay >> in some way um uh directed by regulation in order that we consume less of these other forms of energy and more of electricity.

[00:27:48]>> So Anakati how do you do it in a way and we had this discussion just a couple of weeks ago when it came to the the price at the pump. uh how do you do it in a way that helps the planet doesn't mean that people start wasting their energy >> uh but doesn't punish the poor because right now uh the argument is being made that uh a lot of these subsidies help the richest not the poorest. So how do you do it? Now it is true that the equation is difficult to solve because uh with uh um typically the u price incentive we want to match several objectives which is consuming less consuming better and consuming the carbonized. Um and it is true that when we um push to subsidize or to decrease the final prices we have to take into account which is the rebound effect how people is going to consume. Um and this argument I mean in this sense the uh the French position of resisting to the temptation of uh uh giving I mean uh very generous subsidies for the uh gasoline is exactly this point because this is going to benefit everyone and not the ones that are uh the most exposed to the uh um energy bills. Um so we have >> this is this is the land this is the land of the yellow vest which started because of a carbon tax.

[00:29:15]>> Yeah the yellow vest we're I mean what we are um witnessing today is an increase of the gasoline price which is due to the increase of the oil price whereas the yellow west were contesting something that was another elephant in the room that is we have to side it CO2 prices. So the price of the uh um pollution externality that still exist and I think that this is another driver that we have to accept. Um and I understand this point that we have to make the good comparative prices between what it is polluting and what it is not.

[00:29:54]Um in France we have this paradox of comparing gas prices and electricity prices. But what is going to bridge and one of the essential point of solving this equation is exactly making apparent to the eyes of consumers which are the damages and this can be done by carbon pricing >> carbon pricing or uh I heard one argument made from men which was simply don't lower the price of electricity don't put moratoriums on oil and gas again this is to help the poorest but rather just give money to those who need it most. That's the only way. And keep the prices high on energy because you can't let people waste energy.

[00:30:37]>> I think we will all agree that we shouldn't waste energy. But one of the key issue we have in France and in many other countries is that the tax policy on electricity is the same as it is on gas which means that you cannot differentiate electricity and gas. And yet obviously the climate impact of the consumption of electricity and of gas in France is completely different because of the decarbonized electricity mix. So we need to face this issue of tax policies. And yes, we also need to consider the effect that climate policies will have on the poorest. And I think one of the reasons that justified the current backlash against ecological policies is the feeling the impression that a lot of those policies were unfair or were perceived as inequitable. And indeed they als they they sometimes gave the impression that they'd be designed in Parisian apartment by people who had no car and people who had plenty of money to go to the lo to buy local groceries without taking into consideration the fact that people outside the cities were dependent on their car couldn't afford a heat pump or to renovate their home. And I think this distributive element is absolutely key if we want to succeed with the climate and energy transition. What is certain is that this uh uh demand for electricity keeps growing not just here in Europe but the world over and there's push back particularly as we see the rise of data centers data centers in places like the United States but also also like in South Africa a nation already plone to power outages residents of the Gulitu township outside Cape Town worrying about plans to massively scale up data centers there the Daily Maverick newspaper reports that four new major data centers are said to gobble up the equivalent of more than onethird of current electricity supply in the Cape Town area. So you know there's uh do you regulate who gets that electricity Philip Chavez?

[00:32:42]>> So first of all you have to know that especially in Europe the electricity consumption has decreased drastically for around 10 years. uh the consumption of electricity in France in 2025 was the consumption of electricity of 2005. So it means that currently we don't see really the electricity demand increasing in France for three reason.

[00:33:09]The uh electricity of usage is much more slower than we imagine at the beginning.

[00:33:16]Secondly, uh the equipment are less demanding of electricity because more efficient. And the third reason is that the people because the price of electricity is strongly increased are probably more uh u regarding to consuming electricity. uh you agree that if there is uh an increase of uh electricity consumption over the next 10 years which is not demonstrated because uh LTE uh plan to >> that's the grid operator >> yeah the great operator in France plan of around 1% of increase per year which is not a lot so it mean in 10 years we would recover the 10% which we have lost over the last 10 years which means that today we produce produce too many too much electricity and so uh the big question is effectively the data center uh the big demand could come from uh intelligence artificial intelligence and data center and also we hope from electricity of us age but it's not demonstrated so it means that knowing exactly what will be the demand of electricity in 10 years extremely difficult and there was a big revision of LTE on consumption by decreasing around by 100 terowatt hours the electricity consumption of 2035.

[00:34:40]>> Okay.

[00:34:40]>> You need to say what LTE is because >> the power the power grid the French power grid was saying earlier >> I have no other words to >> an uh Europe not just France because France has again all those nuclear power plants but all of Europe. Does it have an electricity problem? Is there a is there a problem with the uh the does it does it have plenty of supply?

[00:35:07]Um I think that there is um kind of I mean state by state we can find some specificities and uh this is also something difficult in Europe because we have to streamline a unique policy uh that has to uh then take into account different histories, different energy mixes uh and different visions. Um so it is an asset for France to produce a lot of electricity more than what it is consumed in France because it can provide maybe a bridge for other countries by exporting it where the electricity production is lower and between the neighbors of France. Um this is often the case. um except the crisis in 2022 um the neighboring countries have resorbed what it has been produced as a surplus with respect to the local consumption. But then the challenges that we have in forecasting electricity demand in France is more or less the same in other countries. Um >> how much is AI going to excuse me suck out of the grid in >> um >> it's >> yeah well it it depends on >> 15 15% of export around the the maximum depends on from France to neighboring country today is 90 terowatt hours around >> there are some scenarios >> and we are really at the >> at the maximum yeah but there are different scenarios and the the main thing is that um are these data centers going to be um I mean to invest in France. We had couple of weeks ago the first signal of Amazon coming and creating a very big center uh bringing a lot of um their uh logistics in France and one of the reason was to have together with the management of their clouds the possibility of uh getting um decarbonized and low cost electricity.

[00:37:06]that this is just one of the wave that we are expecting and there is also another difference that I would like to point out with the example that has been done with uh the electrification in Cape Town. Uh the situation in the global south is completely different. Um those are countries where um maybe not in South Africa but more generally in Africa we struggle with electricity access first and then what it is the usage of um data centers that locate there because they have exceptional conditions to also uh build their factories uh bring money bring bring in jobs and then absorbing also investment for electricity. So I I don't think we can compare what is going on in Europe and what is going on in uh in these emerging countries.

[00:38:03]>> Again, should there be rules on who has priority when it comes to electrification or what sectors have the priority? I think ideally uh yes we should be able to decide who should have access and in case there are shortages of electricity there needs to be priority. However, I think that the challenge will be to provide electricity to everyone and to all usages and indeed if we if we take artificial intelligence the reality is that electricity use will continue to increase worldwide. I mean last year electricity use increased by about 2.5%.

[00:38:44]But the big news and I think that was under reported is that all of that increase in electricity consumption last year was completely absorbed by lowcarbon energies by renewables and nuclear. This is the first time this has happened outside of CO which means that fossil fuel production for electricity has been scaled down for the first time outside of CO and that's a major turning point I think in the electricity transition. Yeah, artificial intelligence the topic of the Pope's first encyclical this week. And even though he worried more about things like deregulation, weaponization of AI, disruption to the labor market, he more broadly emphasized that machines have to serve humanity, not the other way around.

[00:39:28]Let's not fear artificial intelligence, but constantly keep the question of the human in play.

[00:39:36]We cannot be careless with our most powerful technical instruments.

[00:39:41]>> Stefani Koot is innovation technology uh going to come to the aid of humanity in tackling the climate crisis or is it going to be the undoing of it?

[00:39:55]I >> mean of course it is first um of all we see a lot of of technologies that are very important that are necessary. We cannot solve the climate crisis and other ecological crisis without a technology. I think that is very important to recognize. We have to support a certain set of technologies and we know more or less which they are.

[00:40:15]Um we can disagree about one or two of them but more or less we know that. I think what is more important is that we also have to take into account that the economics the political economy of phasing in new technology is not always the same as phasing out the old ones. So there are real conflicts um uh ahead um already um beginning with um certain uh jobs that will disappear that will be recqualified with certain forms of life um that have developed um out of the fossil um production age that will have to be abandoned. We have to change infrastructures. That's why we need um also the state. We have to overcome resistance. And so I think what is insidious perhaps in this technology will solve us narrative is not so much that it un estimates perhaps the scale of the problem it does but also that it politically disarms our societies. So the problem with this technoptimism is political. We have to understand um the problems that lie ahead. We have to understand that automatically innovation, markets and electrification will not suffice and that the collective efforts that will be demanded uh are much larger and I think it is important to prepare societies on this because we have seen in other instances we have seen briefly during covid but also in the 70s during the all crisis um we have seen during wartimes and I don't wish a war economy but still that populations when they understand that things are at stake are willing to make um efforts.

[00:41:49]But for that to happen, they have to be prepared and then the measures taken have to be um perceived as just and as not detrimental to um already vulnerable groups and I think that is really the core. So I think technology is important but technology will not solve it alone.

[00:42:06]>> All right, Stefan Coup priming the pump for a conversation on uh uh uh technology, ecology and democracy. We'll hope to have that one soon and have you back. Stefani Coot, thank you so much for being with us. Uh from Hamburg, I want to thank Anna Creti, Fran J, Philip Chales. Thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate.