The Destructive Nature of Envy and the Ways it Manifests in Friendships

[00:00:00]I've had yet another recent experience with something like this where I was describing it to someone as it's not like the loss of this friend and I I would put friend in quotes now that I know better really wounds me.

[00:00:17]This friend this is this this wasn't an incredibly deep friendship. But what is upsetting to me is I'm angry at myself because I misjudged this person, >> right? Like I'm like, "Wait, you got fooled. You your radar is usually pretty good for this stuff." In fact, there are people who I'll say to you like, "Oh, I really I I like that person." You'll be like, "No, no, no, >> no."

[00:00:42]>> Right. you'll see you'll see through them in in some kind of ways where I kind of want to I I I I feel like I have a pretty good detector, but I also kind of really want to believe that when people are coming at you with good intentions or they seem that that they're genuine, you know, and um >> it's Yeah, it's so that's how I would describe it is sort of like just frustration with myself like like you really should have seen that one for what it was.

[00:01:09]>> I can see that. I can see that. And as you get older, and I feel like the more people you meet and the more people you interact with, you really can start to kind of like see the signs, you know, there's only so many different personality types, right? And so you can sort of say, although I've gone in the opposite direction with people, too, where like I um made assumptions, you know, just based on very very little information and then realized um that I was wrong, you know, not not that I was um but these are people that like I was meeting for the first time and like getting to know and first impressions.

[00:01:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. And just kind of thinking like uh you know um whatever you know they they they weren't blowing my mind.

[00:01:47]But then as time went on I was like you know what I would have never seen this friendship coming you know and so you know it can go in either direction. So >> those are always pleasant surprises.

[00:01:57]Yeah, you know, in in prepping for this segment, I um I was reading obviously that Vogue piece and she talked about two very interesting phenomena that have um have sort of now they have like they're not diagnostic labels, but they're colloquial labels. Uh she quotes a psychologist called uh Dr. Christy Ferrari who has coined something called status borrowing. And this is a friend who's coming at you. you you may not realize it, but they are looking at you and they want to use you to sort of get to where they want to go. Like you're just a stepping stone for them.

[00:02:40]>> Then she also talks about the identity thief. And I feel like this person is you're more likely to meet probably in your 20s. I certainly met one or two. Um who you who you realize very slow. It's like it's like a horror movie. you realize slowly and like you're then and then you're in it and you got to get out of this friendship that they want they they want to to have your life. They want to >> the guy you're dating, they they're going to go after him. The look that you've got, they're going to start copying your look. The life that you've got going on, they're actively trying to get that. And I was thinking about like the best films that have been made about this stuff because they're always horror films >> now. single white female, >> obviously single white female, which had a psychosexual element to it. So, I don't fully count that. I'm just talking like pure platonic friendships. Um, >> okay.

[00:03:34]>> Okay. Uh, All About Eve.

[00:03:37]>> Okay. Number one.

[00:03:38]>> Um, >> of of of the recent era of the social media era era. Excuse me, I sound like Ted Kennedy. Er, >> um, >> have you seen Ingrid Goes West with Aubrey Plaza?

[00:03:52]No.

[00:03:53]>> And Elizabeth Olsen. Great film. It falls apart in like the last third, but Aubrey Plaza plays this young woman who is completely a drift, whose mother has just died. And she she begins obsessively following this influencer who lives in Los Angeles, played by Elizabeth Olsen. and she decides the answer to her problems is to go to Los Angeles, run into this girl, figure out a way to befriend her, and worm her way into her life. And it it unra it goes from there. And it's it's again, it falls apart towards the end, but it's a great examination of it. And then somebody else mentioned um and I wouldn't have necessarily thought of this, but um the talented Mr. Ripley in terms of the Buffalo Bill Skinning.

[00:04:40]Remember, I don't know. There was an original French version with Ela Dylon which I love. It's called Purple Noon.

[00:04:46]And then the Matt Damon version made by Anthony Mangela in the 90s. And um I that also made me think of the conversation that we were having with Billy Bush where he was like I get to the Today Show trying to make my way in the world and Matt Lowour and Al Roker are these little like no Matt Lowour was a dangerous dangerous guy my opinion but Al Roker is such a You know, America's favorite weatherman is like Billy's like he was so mean to me and trying to sabotage me all the time and he's also completely unprepared all the time.

[00:05:20]>> I know. And like although it doesn't now now that we did the commencement mi where it's Matt Lowour is just like you know I will be your worst nightmare >> telling us exactly who he is going I'm mean I'm petty. I'm arrogant. If you're in my way get the out of my way.

[00:05:37]I'm going to make you hurt.

[00:05:38]>> Right. Like it's it's like like the crowd wants to believe this is played for laughs. No, no, no, no, no. Like we always say at the Nerve, these people tell us who they are. Do not be fooled.

[00:05:49]But I was like, wow. Like Billy Bush >> as a middle-aged man working with other middle-aged men was subject to the kind of bullying that we typically think of as the province of Mean Girls. Mean Girls, another movie about jealousy and female bullying.

[00:06:04]>> You know, it's it it's true. And it when he was talking about it, I was like, "Oh my god, Al Roker is hitting all of the bullet points that are in that Vogue article about envy."

[00:06:14]>> Al Roker is a mean, frustrated 15year-old girl at heart, right?

[00:06:20]>> That's what it sounds like. You would never guess it. I mean, if Billy Bush didn't come out with that story, um, I don't know. I would a I would never have >> He wears a decent mask. Al Roker. I mean, as I said to Bill, Billy, I kind of have always detected rage like just underneath that surface. My surface, my theory is that any public figure, and they're often men, not always, >> but like it's my theory about Tom Hanks.

[00:06:46]Anybody who needs to be known as the best, nicest guy in all the land, they're probably a nightmare in real life. Just be nice. It shouldn't be your central preoccupation. Treat people with decency. It should be the matter of doing business throughout your days.

[00:07:00]It's it shouldn't be like your central defining. I'm I'm a really virtuous person. It's always it's like it's always the Bible thumpers. It's always the openly virtuous people who get caught with their pants down in bathroom stalls getting blown by sex work. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?

[00:07:14]>> I do know what you're saying. And honestly, I knew a girl who was like that in in a lot of ways like where she would just she needed Oh, I hate people like this. She >> We're gonna talk to Sam Vachn about it.

[00:07:25]This is a whole other conversation, but go on. But I don't Okay. But it's like she needed people to like her. It was her central like goal in life and it drove me up a wall. It's actually the same person I mentioned the last time we were talking. Um the one that was like I really would like, you know, to meet a guy that has your personality but in a guy, you know.

[00:07:46]>> Oh. Oh, that one.

[00:07:48]But she needed I mean she would talk so much about people and she was I mean she was venomous you know like I don't think she had um one core friend in her life from her former life where she came from be before New York.

[00:08:03]>> Major red flag.

[00:08:05]>> Yeah. like I don't think like I never heard of anybody. I don't remember anybody like that. But but she would have um she would basically perform in a way with all different people so that everybody would think that she was like the nicest and friendliest and it worked. And she would, you know, she would send gift baskets to people like just random contacts like >> So how did she get outed?

[00:08:33]I don't think she ever got outed. I just knew who she was and I was very um undone by it. Like I I remember just being very turned off by it. And I mean I I knew what level of friendship we had and it was fine. I didn't take it personally, but I just I remember I remember thinking this is such a terrible quality. Like you you >> it's bad. It's a it's it's a warning sign for sure because you're if you need everybody to like you, you've got big problems, right? You need so much validation, but it's all fake.

[00:09:03]>> Well, and and you're shapeshifting.

[00:09:05]She's an emotional psychological shape shifter, right? To fit like whatever person she's in front of who, you know, I don't want you're not going to like everybody. It's kind of a healthy reaction, you know?

[00:09:15]>> Right. You're not going to like everybody. I mean, it's just it's that's just not the way. You know, I'll say this. My five well, when my oldest daughter was five, she said it perfectly. I'll never forget this cuz it blew my mind and I was like I'm not responsible for what she just said. She did this on her own.

[00:09:31]>> She I asked her about this one kid because I just kind of noticed like h this one doesn't really pay her much attention. Anyway, okay. She said I said, "Does so and so, you know, talk to you? Um do you do do you guys like hang out at school? Do you see each other on the playground? What do you what goes on?" And she said, "Not really. She doesn't really say much to me. Um but you know, not everybody can be friends with everybody. It's not the way the world works.

[00:09:57]>> You know what? I love this and I wanted to end on this because I think from the mouths of babes.

[00:10:01]>> Yes.

[00:10:02]>> Right. So, I have a goddaughter >> who um was talking to me about going to an event, a thing like uh like like a one-on-one thing with another friend of hers. and her mom overheard the conversation and said, "Wait, I didn't I didn't think you guys were friends anymore, that you really don't get along anymore." And my goddaughter said, "No, we're still friends. We're just not like deep friends anymore." And I was like, "This is amazing." Like, she at a very young age recognizes that you can have friends at all different levels of of depth of importance. um that other that friendships often serve different friendships serve you in different ways.

[00:10:53]Some are going to be inherently limited and that is okay.

[00:10:57]>> Um and that things and people shift and I just I thought it was such a mature response.

[00:11:04]>> Yeah. So Marina, in your in your estimation, I know you say you don't really you've been lucky enough to not experience this, >> but if if let's say one of your ride or die friends >> at some point expressed some kind of resentment towards you for say anything that's just like a part of you that's beyond your control. You know, maybe uh maybe you land Bill Maher.

[00:11:34]Okay. And off you go to Hollywood and you leave me and uh that's it. Um but let's say >> and then you and I have to go to life uh what is it? Platonic >> friendship counseling or whatever >> platonic life partner counseling.

[00:11:50]>> But what what what would you what would you what would your response be? Do you believe in Oprah's dictim that like you cannot have a friend in your life if they are jealous of you?

[00:12:02]>> Yeah. Oh god. I mean there's two different levels here, right? So, um it's one thing you're saying jealousy, but you're not saying betrayal because betrayal is >> that is a betrayal. I think it's a betrayal.

[00:12:13]>> I would be I would lose my I think I would lose my faith in all humanity because to me like these individuals are I I I mean I don't even know what I would do to be honest with you. I I I think it would just like completely like the earth would shift from underneath me. Yes. I don't know. Um it would be I would be in mourning, you know, it would really it would bring me grief. Um because it's that deep.

[00:12:39]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:41]>> Yeah. I agree.

[00:12:43]>> But I think I I you know people you know like knock on wood you know hopefully it never does happen to you but I think um I think that part of the reason it cuts is that female friendships go very very very deep. You know, I was talking to you about my favorite example of this. There was a Seinfeld episode in which um there was a there was one scene. It was in it was in the diner where they were talking about how men and women resolve difficulties differently in friendship.

[00:13:13]And um Elaine was kind of, you know, they were talking about the way in which men will really get into it and have it out. And it can even come to physical blows, but when it's over, it's over.

[00:13:24]And they make up and they go back to being friends. And whatever that event was is in the past, never to be exumed.

[00:13:30]And she was she was marveling at this.

[00:13:32]And one of them says to her, "Why? Like, what do women do?" And Elaine says, "We just bully each other until someone develops an eating disorder."

[00:13:43]I mean, it's it's so funny. Um, except I it's it's hard for me to wrap my head around because I just I don't have that kind of experience and I hope my kids don't to be honest with you. Um, but I just feel like I know you don't believe in like um girls cuz when people say it, they don't really mean it. But um >> if you say you are, you're not. You're you either are or you aren't. You know, Taylor Swift example number one.

[00:14:07]>> Yeah, but she's that's she's an alien. I I just mean like I actually I don't know another term for it, but I've always been team girl. I don't really understand the idea of cutting other women down. I don't understand the idea of cutting people down to be honest with you.

[00:14:25]>> I agree with you.

[00:14:26]>> But hey, I don't know.

[00:14:29]>> Well, you know, it's what makes you a troublemaker. It's what makes you a troublemaker. You know, we cause trouble for the right people, but we're really deep inside. We mean we mean only good things.

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