Advaita Vedanta with Francis Lucille | Non Duality and the Path to Liberation

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[00:00:01]There is only one reality which we experience as this consciousness which is hearing my words right now.

[00:00:12]I go there is only one reality eternal happy intelligent and it is that which is hearing my words right now. And because it is the only reality, we all share it. We all are the same consciousness.

[00:00:35]And this experience is [music] love.

[00:00:44][music] All right, Francis Lucille, thank you so much for being on the show with us. you have your awesome YouTube channel there uh focused on nonduality and uh there's a lot of people out there that know who you are, but I'm sure uh for some of our audience members, they might be unfamiliar with some of your work. One of the places we like to begin is kind of with our guest and their backstory. Uh maybe you could tell uh everyone a little bit about uh your story, how you got to where you are, and what you're talking about now online on YouTube.

[00:01:22]Uh I was miserable.

[00:01:28]Uh in spite of having achieved everything my parents and society had assume assured me would make me happy. I had was married, had a child, had a good job.

[00:01:50]uh two cars in the driveway, you know, the European dream. And um in spite of that, at some point I I hit I hit the bottom. And um a few months later, I I I had a stop by in Paris.

[00:02:12]I went to the Latin Quarter where I used to to be as a student.

[00:02:17]went to a bookstore and the book by Krishna Merti attracted my attention. I went to a bistro nearby.

[00:02:26]Three hours later I had read the book and I bought all the books by the same author and that's how it started. Then later on so it started with Krishna Mertis and Buddhist Advita scripture Hinduist scripture etc brief I was on the path and then I wanted to meet someone who who would live it. I was just curious, you know, how how does such a person looks like?

[00:03:07]Does it levitate? Does it perform miracles etc. I had all these questions and uh a guy who whom I had met attending meetings with various uh uh uh teachers who who once told me, "Oh, I just met the your teacher. I just met met the one you're looking for." And it's strange because he was true. So I met this gentleman after our first meeting. I didn't know whether he was enlightened, realized, whatever.

[00:03:49]But I know after leaving him, I had a three-hour drive. I had time to to think about what had taken place. And the feeling I had is that I would like him to be my friend. Yeah. Uh and that's how our relationship started. You know, he was my teacher, became a close friend, spend a lot of time with him for many years, for 10 years. Uh then he asked me to move to America and then he passed away in uh 1998.

[00:04:35]So that's the story. Uh when I was in America already when I was in France, I was teaching the meditation that my teacher had told me and I was sending all my students to to him. I was doing that just as a hobby.

[00:04:58]And then when I moved to America, he had asked me to move to America. uh people in the Bay Area in San Francisco uh asked me because they heard that I was doing that in in France and I had a long acquaintance with him.

[00:05:18]They asked me to do the same which I did.

[00:05:21]And uh and then I put a book uh book on tape out of conversation we had with a friend and um I got invited to speak in many places and that that's how it really started in America.

[00:05:41]Uh I had a a book on tapes business and this friend uh told me oh why don't you record our conversations and what do you put a book a book out so I did it was not a commercial success at all but some people invited me to come and to speak and that's how it started and then I had to stop my business and I've been doing that here in America since 1995.

[00:06:13]So, it's been a long time.

[00:06:16]>> One of the interesting things that kind of stuck out about your story was the place where you came to with your suffering where you took some actionable steps to kind of like seek out what was going on there. What is it with people, you know, that don't ever get there?

[00:06:32]They're suffering their whole lives, but they make a choice to just continue on and to never actually take an action or a step to Like from your perspective, what do you see as the block there? What stops people from making the choice to kind of take a close look at things?

[00:06:51]>> I don't know. It's perhaps it's a mystery. We don't know. Destiny of each inid each individual is different. What I know that in my case um I mean my I I I hit rag the bottom because I realized that everything I had achieved so far was not making me happy. I didn't like my job. I was miserable in my job. Uh I was getting a divorce and at the time I even was sick. I had a long illness of hepatitis and at some point I I I was an atheist, you know, and at some point I said, "Oh God, if you exist, it's time to show up in in the depths of my despair." And uh >> powerful prayer.

[00:07:47]>> That's a powerful prayer, I think.

[00:07:49]>> Yes. And that's how and that's how uh two months later uh this encounter with this book took place. You see nothing happens by chance.

[00:08:02]So what was what was it about uh the first book that you picked up? Um if you could give a title that'd be great but um what was it about this book or what did you find within this book that st that resonated with you that you know got the wheels turning?

[00:08:18]I think uh because I was an atheist, I was a scientist and uh I was very square you see. So religion for me was taboo. Uh during my childhood, my parents were atheist too. So the the G word word was worse than the F word, >> right? [laughter] You see? So and and so I couldn't I couldn't have access directly uh Indian sages such as Ramanamari because it it would have been too religious for me. Krishna Merti was different in that sense that he he was saying all religions forget about them. They're all crooks you know basically. So that that that was my my type of guy if you >> Yeah. He's like Osho a little bit in that way you know like >> subverting constant subverting of things. So he was what what in India in India they call that the he is the step the stepping stone to us you know because in a sense he was u petting my my ignorance you know in the back but at the same time uh he was telling me of of a different dimension and that's what attractus me ates with me. He had the experience of of the infinite.

[00:09:55]But then I I I discover later on that there were better sources of truth than Krishna.

[00:10:04]>> Like what?

[00:10:06]>> Like what? Like what?

[00:10:08]>> Like my teacher.

[00:10:10]>> Oh, right. Yeah. And and that's an interesting >> and other other teacher other other people I've met. It's so it's so tailor made your teacher because uh right away the idea that you came back and you went well I want this person to be my friend.

[00:10:26]You know, some people I got to imagine that some people the fit for them is a teacher that's a teacher and that some people the fit for them is some kind of systematic thing and then the fit for you is this guy I want to be my friend and then over a prolonged friendship the teaching gets through and I'm kind of curious where the transition from that like I don't know anything about your teacher um I I know some relationship between you and Rupert Spirit James mentioned um but I'm fascinated by Like some people seem to be designated or a good fit as teacher or a you know and in all types of different ways. Your teacher seems like a his method came through in friendship and some people's method is through >> he was a regular teacher. He was both my teacher and my friend. So >> right >> it was a it's a it was a different type of connection because there was a friendship which means a love but uh at the same time I I felt an infinite respect for him because uh because the truth was speaking to him. So it was at the same time very close to my heart and at the same time uh uh I felt an infinite respect. M >> is that important in the teacher dynamic that that kind of respect it? Maybe that sounds like a kind of a stupid question, but I'm saying it seems to play a consistent role in in teachers or facilitators of whatever the path is.

[00:12:01]You know that can you talk a little bit more about what that respect is? Do you have students to this day like as a teacher yourself? What role does respect play in all that? or from the vantage point of the teacher you are not a teacher there is a teacher only from the vantage point of the student from the from the vantage point of the so-called teacher everybody is the same consciousness everybody is God so he the teacher the so-called teacher sees God in all beings you know so you the teacher doesn't feel he's a teacher in a sense. In a sense the teacher comes when a question is asked for instance or when the circumstances required just as the the friend comes out when circumstances require it. The father or the mother comes out when when required.

[00:13:02]But with your child, you are not always a father. You are the friend. You are the teacher. You are the father. you are many things. Uh and so it's the same in a in a relationship. But uh uh the spiritual teacher that comes out is that that that aspect of it that inspire the highest respect you know because you feel you feel the presence you feel that uh that which speaks through this human body mind is a different dimension >> when it comes to the teachings. What are the highlights? What are like the the major overarching teachings that are getting that are getting taught within uh your community and what you've learned from your teacher now that you're passing down? What are the main concepts? Actually that which is passed down is not concepts or techniques or these are these are the traditions if you will with a small t T. There are many traditions with a small T techniques [clears throat] ways to point at the absolute. But that which really [clears throat and snorts] constitutes the real tradition, the one with a capital T is beyond words. And this one is [clears throat] common to all authentic traditions.

[00:14:42]In other words, it's it's a common ground of uh of of of Jesus teachings of Buddha's teaching of the tawist teachings of master ekart of rumies of all the sages you know uh at all times and all over the world have shared the same experience. It's the means that were used for the sharing that were different and that would adapt to the circumstances just as you [clears throat] know I don't care very much about the tradition I came from which is called adva vidanta actually my teacher was at the crossroad of three traditions hata yoga kashmir and shavism but the primary was advant that doesn't matter Because these are teaching techniques you see and actually each teacher adapts its technique to the student and to the age at which he lives and they live. So otherwise you you become a fundamentalist. You forget the you know the truth and you stick to the letter. you forget the spirit, right? And you stick to the letter.

[00:16:06]>> So, we met this we met this guy one time. We interviewed him and he was a seasoned teacher in the field of Sorry for interrupting. I just think that this could be interesting. Uh he was like a seasoned sort of teacher and in the the culture of spirituality retreats and all that stuff. And at the end he was like we were like well what's the overall what's the overarching nonf fundamentalist non-sistatic answer then like what is the thing that you want to convey and he was like get out don't be spiritual like [laughter] like at the end of the day he had this kind of like shaking off of everything and I feel like that's for somebody like yourself that's got all this experience in this world what excites you at this point you know there's guys there's YouTube channels that their their whole thing video after video is about pointing pointing pointing towards enlightenment and awakening and that's great. And then you go a couple of channels over and there's some guy that's interested in old records and he's reviewing records after record or an eclectic array of interests in this world. But from somebody who is uh at the zenith of this like whole path, what is fundamental for all of is there any what gets you excited at this point?

[00:17:25]You still like talking about enlightenment? Do you still like talking about all this stuff?

[00:17:29]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. I am like I am like the bird singing his song on the in the woods and he doesn't care where nobody listens where one person listen or 20 and the difference between me and the birds in that this bird here thinks only if there is an interest in what the bird has to say. If there is no interest in what I may have to say there is no interest here in speaking or doing anything but if there is a need a question that's my vocation you see that's that's and besides there is something important it's people believe that if you liberate yourself from the burden to of the belief to be a separate person right? If you if you liberate that then automatically you are going to be a teacher. Not at all. Most people they they go free and they do something else.

[00:18:34]They are interested in gardening or they are interested in doing mathematics.

[00:18:37]>> They're a merchant for Pete's sake or anything to be a normal guy you know a normal person just being happy. And by happy I I mean without worries.

[00:18:49]>> Nobody asked nobody asked the Buddha or Jesus. Like nobody went up to Jesus and was like, "Jesus, what do you do when everyone's not looking?" Like, and he was like, "Well, thank God somebody finally asked. I collect, you know, whatever." You know what I mean? I collect seashells. Check out my seashells.

[00:19:04]>> He was a regular [laughter] guy, you >> right? And and we're all regular guys.

[00:19:10]And I that's why I kind of like it. It seems a little bit I don't think it's common for people to to understand at the end of the day like some people maybe not so comfortable seeing their teacher as a friend but the person that you're familiar with and maybe we can get into that or not or whatever. I actually saw a clip of uh Rupert Spear and he was talking to somebody and she was like she was having some hangup and he goes, "Hey, I want to be your friend at the end of the day. like we're you you even kind of have to let go of this image of me as a teacher. Um and I feel like that reflects a little bit of what we're saying here. Um but nevertheless the subject is profoundly interesting you know and that's >> yes >> it's interest it is interesting in itself that after so much time it remains interesting to talk about enlightenment and awakening and >> it is not interesting when I am on my own I I do what what is required you see I I I just do gardening uh hanging out with my wife cooking cooking stuff, taking care of my health. [clears throat] Uh I don't think about my teaching, you see, unless I have a I have to fly somewhere. I need to organize, you said.

[00:20:28]Yes. But I don't think I don't read anymore any spiritual books, you know.

[00:20:35]>> Yeah. [laughter] I've seen people burn their old spiritual book. Like some people they have a revelation and they're like, I got rid of all of them.

[00:20:43]>> [laughter] >> But but but if some if someone asks me questions, oh for instance, the other the other day I was reading a poem by Roomie just opening a book >> and then it was so beautiful. The emotion came to me. It was a tear in my eyes. You see beautiful >> that's normal. You're a human being. You see, but you have all these emotions but I'm not seeking it.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah. Oh, even your example of the gardener, like let's just say as recklessly as we can, let's say you are enlightened and you're gardening and you're doing it uh authentically.

[00:21:20]There's some guy out there gardening because because his coach told him gardening makes you a better athlete and to this day he's gardening and sort of frustrated while he does it. Like there's so many things that you can do because it's not an authentic pursuit.

[00:21:36]And maybe an aspect of this enlightenment awakening stuff is like you're going to do everything the same normal, but at the end of the day, it's from a different place. It's from a it's from a nonshackled by it's from like a maybe a non-shackled place.

[00:21:52]>> Is that uh poignant at all or was that just >> I think that's a good little point.

[00:21:56]>> That's the idea. The idea is to be free from worries, right?

[00:22:00]>> And then life becomes a celebration. You know we don't need to you know people they expect that life is go that I get enlightened it's like I've smoked a big joint like that you say wow all of a sudden you know that's like that that's not natural you see what I mean >> it's life is different [snorts] >> it's every day it's every day you go to your garden you look at your rose oh this one has come up today or this one is infected with insects you know I'm going to So, uh, it's just it it would be good enough for for people if they could only liberate themselves from worries, you know, not >> It's so funny the joint example because everybody's got their own flavor and we interviewed one person that was like, I'm high all the time [laughter] like like they were they were not advocating weed. were literally saying like I'm I'm in awake I'm awakened and so I it's like I'm high all the time is their approach and then there's like some stoner to the side going yeah but I'm actually high all the time I smoke weed and that's my answer and and then there's the thing that you're saying it's like um which I understand the point I don't want to miss the point which is a good one which is it's it doesn't you don't have to it's silly maybe to think that it's a eternally stoned high all the time like that's a state that's a state of being a state Because every state that has a beginning >> Yeah.

[00:23:32]>> has an end.

[00:23:33]>> Yes.

[00:23:34]>> You know.

[00:23:34]>> Yeah. I love that. It's so grounded.

[00:23:37]>> And sometimes there is a price to pay.

[00:23:40]>> Yeah.

[00:23:41]>> Well, I think that part of that comes in is like, you know, some some of these things maybe take some time to settle in or or be grasped. Sometimes I think truths come in the form of an insight.

[00:23:51]Sometimes they come in a form of like a intuitive recognition. But I think that one of the things that might be helpful is realizing that sometimes we can have a dysfunctional relationship with even something that we categorize as negative. Like we can have a dysfunctional rel relationship with pain or for instance when you see ants have some bug has eaten your flower. There's somebody that goes to their garden sees that bugs have attacked one of their flower and they have a fit because it's not perfect now. You know what I mean?

[00:24:19]Whereas if you're liberated the all even the things that are natural from the normal world categorized as negative are the it's not it's not shackled by those rigid distinctions.

[00:24:34]Maybe there is however you see um there is what what liberation is about the liberation I talk about liberation is the liberation of what I could call the sense of luck and let's imagine that you get everything you want you know you have you have a lot of power. You want a Ferrari. Bing, you have the Ferrari. You want to be filthy, wealthy. Well, you get $100 million. Imagine you are in this scenario and you get everything you want. Everything you want immediately you get it.

[00:25:21]And if you're smart enough, you're going to realize that there is going to be something missing always >> existentially.

[00:25:31]>> Always. You see what I mean?

[00:25:33]>> Yeah.

[00:25:34]>> Because there are people who are very handsome, very young, very healthy, very wealthy, famous and and they kill themselves.

[00:25:43]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:44]>> You see, >> so uh and it is this sense of luck that remains when at least through your imagination you have put yourself in a situation when you can have everything you want.

[00:26:02]This leftovers of of lack is the most difficult and it is a kind of sense of doom of a sense of doom which is there in the background of our life and then that manifests act as all kind of desires all kinds of fears like you are taking a gardening image you know it it is the soil out of which all these plants grow but which is a source for them. This >> impending doom. Sometimes it comes to us as uh fear of death but it's not it's fear of absolute disappearance attachment to being alive is a desire.

[00:26:55]It it's in fact seeking for eternal eternal life that we believe access to which is not allowed for us and uh that's a predicament of of the human condition. Animals they don't worry about the moral right. They >> well they they would avoid they would avoid being probably killed but the Definitely we do. Oh no, I'm not I'm not talking about this instinct.

[00:27:29]>> No, no, this instinct is okay. It's wired in our but when this reactions of fear and desire are triggered not in a natural way but are triggered because they compensate this sense of luck. For instance, uh people eat be way beyond what their body needs and they >> everything way beyond everything.

[00:27:58]>> One more thing. Okay. Addictions. Uh so then you cannot say that it is natural.

[00:28:07]You see it's it's not natural. It's not natural to to drink alcohol. You give alcohol to a dog is to drink it.

[00:28:15]uh it's not there are many things that are not not natural. So we cannot so in the same sense u the this instinct of pres self preservation which is normal can be triggered for no good reason >> that fundamental >> if there is if there is a clear and present danger it's normal to to have this reaction if all of a sudden a snake comes out under under your seat or under my seat I I I I would my adrenaline will will jump but when nothing is threatening everything is normal okay this body is going to end at some point that's okay it's part of the system right but >> if in spite of the fact that everything is normal right I still feel this impending doom or this sense of lack that's a That's now now you stone we have a problem. We we we need to explore this what I'm calling fundamental doom because yeah uh it's like we can get into that but it plays out in so many ways like um >> with something like addict like sometimes you'll see somebody that's like a se like you'll see absurd or odd or weird practices like somebody you go why do you have that like steel bar around your ankle and they're like it's my final link to the world everything else is everything else is free, but if I lose this little link around my ankle, I will disappear. Or or it's like the sage that still smokes a pipe that like it's so pernicious. And I think something like addiction, which you know, habit and addiction is something I still have in my life. Like I've got pop right here and you know, other things that you I won't go into, but I'm saying it's it I think it equates to like a a distraction because you're right, there's something very unnatural about drinking. So, what kind of state do you got to be in that that feels like relief to you? Like things have got to be so fundamentally off that you that you know cuz addictions range from kind of innocuous to severe and somebody that's doing something severe that's like now self-destructive.

[00:30:37]It seems like it's operating like a distraction and a distraction maybe at the end of the day to the deepest problem there is which is like an existential fundamental doom that we have. Like I was talking to somebody and then I'll wrap it up yesterday at a get together we were at and they were kind of they were they were like okay but they were struggling with stuff that's common that everybody struggled.

[00:30:57]Everybody got like bills to pay and all this stuff and I said but but freedom there's a sense of freedom you can get by realizing temporariness that you that it's not important that any one human identity lives forever. you've there's aliens on some distant planet that would pay good money for the you experience to be surrounded by your family and to be on a deck in a backyard tempor all really temporary have the have the you simulation you know what I mean but you can't but we can't always appreciate the limits that we have or the freedoms that we have or whatever it is that we happen to have because there seems to be at the end of the day even if you can justify that well you know who cares is if I don't if I don't succeed because it's all temporary anyway, the bottom of the pile there seems to be a a fundamental doom or a fundamental survival-based doom. How do we get that thing? How do we mine that gold?

[00:31:58]>> Yeah. So the this sense of doom is the belief. So now we now I am answering your first question. What do you say? What's the basis of your teaching? Right. It's it's that we believe that our reality, our real self is vulnerable, mortal, dependent on external things or beings.

[00:32:35]So we believe basically that this consciousness which is the reality which is hearing my words right now is attached to and dependent on this human instrument this body mind and that's the mother of all addiction.

[00:33:03]That's the mother of all problems.

[00:33:05][snorts] And another way to look at it, if we believe that we are this body, right? This body is part of this universe, right?

[00:33:19]Even if we believe that this awareness is dependent on this body, this body is not a reality onto itself.

[00:33:30]This body is part of the universe. So the reality of this body meaning our real self. If if I am this body my real self is the reality of this body.

[00:33:43]This body is not a reality unto itself.

[00:33:46]The reality of this body the reality of the universe is the same. So my real self is the self of the universe. That's why it's this sense of being a separate entity which is a culprit which is a party pooper if you will and uh all we have to do is realize when we feel when we experience psychological suffering I'm not talking about a pain a tooth ache or then we go to the dentist but psychological suffering I don't know about a breakup about something we cannot get we have to ask ourselves would this suffering still be present if I didn't believe to be a separate person a separate consciousness you see and the path towards this liberation is as follows I mean my version of it the big the big name for that is self inquiry But there are various versions.

[00:34:59]My version is first you have to determine am I my body or am I my consciousness whatever it is that perceive the body and the world whatever it is which is hearing my words in this moment.

[00:35:17]If by any chance this consciousness was not dependent on the body let's assume they are separate right which one am I rather the consciousness or the body let's assume I pass away and I go to the ply gates and s Peter tells me you know you have not been too good you have not been too bad so >> you didn't believe in Jesus so So, [laughter] so the so the so the boss the boss told me for you you have a choice either you keep your body or you keep your consciousness but you cannot keep both in your case what choose you [snorts] >> the body >> what's [laughter] come you're stupid what's the use of it if you are not aware of anything you see so obviously You choose consciousness, right?

[00:36:20]>> With no body >> because the body without consciousness >> you won't be aware of anything, right?

[00:36:28]So you may as as well not have one. Right.

[00:36:34]>> Can you pick neither?

[00:36:38]>> That's not I'm not the boss.

[00:36:40]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Okay. It's an image. This image uh uh we can helps us determine that if by any chance consciousness was not dependent on the body, what we are is consciousness. You are not the body.

[00:36:59]You see, and then the second step is to ask ourselves and that that's that's a long in in investigation to ask ourselves what is the evidence that consciousness is dependent upon the body. You see, and then we we come up with all kinds of proof that we feel we have that that consciousness is dependent upon the body. But as we take a closer look, we realize that this evidence we seem to have that consciousness is dependent upon the body is just hearsay from society, from our parents, from our teachers.

[00:37:47]>> Mhm. And that in fact when we take a closer look it doesn't have four legs to stand on.

[00:37:54]It's like we believe in Santa Claus because our parents had told us okay it has a red coat etc etc. He gave us all the details but later on when we in hindsight uh revisit all the evidence we believe to have it's it's very flimsy you see. and then the belief in Santa Claus goes away. So it's the same here. Uh we believe that this consciousness is dependent upon the body. But when we look more carefully, we realize well consciousness always comes first. Consciousness is always with me. The body is not there. The reason I picked a I the reason I picked the wrong stupid answer was like what what like I you're illustrating a point that I'm probably derailing a little bit by doubling down on this. But the reason I picked the body is because I'm seeing that it's like from my perspective it seems that the body and the consciousness it doesn't m language can only do so much. are just categories but it's like it wouldn't matter if I picked the body or the consciousness because the body is equivalent to the consciousness and the conscious iness is equivalent to the body there there wouldn't be a distinction there if that makes sense.

[00:39:16]Do does anybody grasp what I'm trying to point at here? It's like the body could be made out of freaking sparkles for all we know. But but but to me they're equal they're equal things like saying I would choose the consciousness or I would choose the the body because all I have reference no person doesn't have reference to a body.

[00:39:37]There's no person there that's referencing something beyond the body but but you could shake off your distinction distinctions about it you know I mean at the end of the day body is just a word.

[00:39:50]Um, does that clear up why I kind of gave that sort of seemingly like obviously wrong answer approach?

[00:39:59]You know, >> uh, you you claims that you claim that the body is always present >> to some even if all I had was a brain >> in your experience >> like like it can be perceived beyond language but we're using language here.

[00:40:18]So in the terms of language, it's like um um the body is couched within the same thing. Everything else is couched within. Like they're they're they're emergent together. Like the body is emergent with the flower. The body is emergent with the mouth that's talking.

[00:40:36]These things are all emergent spontaneously together. So yeah, there's no separate >> in your dream. Where is your body when you dream?

[00:40:45]>> Um h good question.

[00:40:48]not not at the forefront of my mind.

[00:40:52]>> Yes. So and besides also how do we perceive the body through bodily sensations right inside.

[00:41:04]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:05]through sense perception. When I see my hand, I see myself or I see my body in in the mirror, right?

[00:41:14]And through thoughts when I I use the word body or I say arm or I say I I these are thoughts and I imagine my body.

[00:41:28]Uh that's how I perceive my body.

[00:41:32]But the body is not always present. In the dream, I have a different body. I can fly in the dream for instance.

[00:41:39]>> Or if I if I am uh someone hurts me in the dream, when I wake up, I have no trace of the of the wound. So, but the consciousness that was, if you will, the witness of the dream is the same which is in the waking state.

[00:42:01]So whatever is my reality experientially has to be always with me. So consciousness is a better candidate to be what I call I than the body because when we say I think I refers to consciousness. When I say I perceive consciousness, when I say I hear, I see consciousness. When I say I think, consciousness, when I say I understand, consciousness, when I say I have a pain, the body pain in >> I follow exactly what you're saying. All all those other things are all those other things regarding the body are in fluctuation but consciousness is actually stable throughout everything.

[00:42:57]>> Yes. Stable. So our reality has to be always with us.

[00:43:02]>> Yeah.

[00:43:02]>> So and also there is something else. Let me give you another to approach that in a different way.

[00:43:12]Uh would you agree that when we dream really we are not aware that we are dreaming? In other words, if a tiger jumps at us, we are really afraid.

[00:43:25]>> Yeah.

[00:43:26]>> Right.

[00:43:26]>> Yeah.

[00:43:27]>> So when we dream, we are not aware that we are dreaming.

[00:43:32]Now in the waking state can we be absolutely sure that we are not dreaming whatever we perceive?

[00:43:43]>> No.

[00:43:43]>> Since when since when we dream we are not aware that we are dreaming.

[00:43:48]>> We're not even the same person. We take for granted that we're a whole other person sometimes. Yeah.

[00:43:53]>> So so so this waking state could be another dream.

[00:43:58]But look, when we dream, we are aware that the tiger that was jumping at us and the body we had in the dream, which had wings, they were illusions.

[00:44:15]>> Yeah.

[00:44:17]>> Yeah.

[00:44:17]>> But the fact that the dream was being perceived was not an illusion. You see, >> right? Yes. Yeah, I do.

[00:44:26]>> The the consciousness of the dream is not an illusion and it is the same consciousness of the waking state. It's precisely because it is the same consciousness that was in the dream that is present in the waking state that has this continuity that we say okay it's real.

[00:44:51]What was perceived in the dream was not real. But the consciousness because it's the same was the reality of both the dream and experientially the consciousness is the reality also of the waking state.

[00:45:05]You see so I can see how that would even diffuse a that would settle a lot of problems. But I got to ask kind of it's an oldie but I think it's it's still I think it might be relevant to that that what you just explained there which is um you know it just is what it is. So do you ever feel the fundamental dread sometimes like there's a and I'll just pair it with this now. Shut up. There's a there's a story of a guy who was anxietyridden and he wanted to get rid of anxiety and so he he he figured out how to get rid of his anxiety only to go I miss anxiety. I wonder what it'd be like to feel anxiety again. And it sounds like almost I'm saying nothing.

[00:45:47]But what I'm saying is we've deduced that a lot of our problems is some like base level dread or base level doom or base level level existential like mamalian style fear.

[00:45:59]Do you ever there I would believe that there's an enlightened person out there with Parkinson's that can't stop shaking or an enlightened person out there with some kind of disorder or physiological problem or possibly even an addiction or possibly even this or that. Do you as somebody who like I respect your opinions, man. I think you know exactly what you're talking about, but I'm curious. Do you ever get the dread? Do you ever get that thing that animates all these other people sometimes like animates them to do take action or be reactive or be afraid? Does it ever happen anymore? Is there a place where it's like never never happens again? Is that possible?

[00:46:36]>> Here is what here is my answer to this.

[00:46:40]>> Sure.

[00:46:41]Uh I moved we move from a situation where we were unhappy 99% of the time to a position where we are without problem 99% of the time.

[00:47:02]So already when we were miserable 99% of the time without knowing that we were miserable. Okay. Without having realizing >> important caveat that's important.

[00:47:15]>> Yeah. So we were miserable. Uh we were miserable in the relationship and we were miserable in this in that. Right.

[00:47:23]And when we move from 99% being miserable to 99% the opposite, who cares of the 1% that remains?

[00:47:36]>> Right. Right. It's almost nothing in the light of >> you see because you the way you phrase your question is say did you ever ever you know it mean let me tell you a joke let me tell you a joke it's is a priest and the rabbi in a plane they are sitting ne next to each other right after a while the priest asks the rabbi Uh, is it I believe that in your religion you cannot eat pork. Is that true? And the rabbi said, "Yes." And the priest says, "Are you telling me that you never ever never ever ever ate pork?" And the rabbi say, "Yeah, I must confess when I was invited by Gentiles and there was pork and out of and I transgressed."

[00:48:37]And the and the priest says, "I see."

[00:48:40]And then there is silence. After five minutes, the rabbi asked the priest, "Tell me something.

[00:48:49]I believe that in your religion, you're not married, right?" No, I believe that in your religion it's you are not allowed to have sex unless you are married. And the priest says, "Yep." And the rabbi goes, "Are you telling me that you never ever ever ever?" And the priest says, "Yes, the flesh is weak."

[00:49:11]And I I must confess that one day, you know, this lady was coming to give flowers in the at the church and I sinned. And then the the rabbi said, "I see a lot better than pork." E [laughter] so [snorts] it has nothing to do with >> Well, it might it might be something to do in some way that I'm not allowed to.

[00:49:43]>> But no, because you were you're presenting that. Have you ever ever ever right now feeling you know of course I'm human you see there are moments but if I look in hindsight you know I'm getting older and I'm old and as I'm getting older I get I'm getting happier you know that's not the the usual case you know >> I'm getting I I feel free unburdened I'm happy with my life you see and that I can say am I going to say that I am perfect you know no I'm not perfect uh and and that's the beauty of it I am happy with what I have you know I'm happy with what I have and uh and that's the goal the goal is to be happy with what we have the goal is not to be always [whistles] [laughter] >> 100% and you know Uh it's my kind of anal retentive control freak thing to be like what's going on here and and and maybe get lost in the mire of uh of like details and precise like one thing you mentioned there was the distinction of the person who's miserable 99% of the time doesn't know they're miserable it's like that plays a role in all this too you know um cuz we're apt to behave a certain way you know I was like you know the appropriate response to a joke is to laugh. And I'm trying I'm looking at it from a different >> Yeah, you didn't laugh. It was Sorry.

[00:51:19]Sorry.

[00:51:20]>> James was I was and I was distracted looking at James. You're laughing before the joke's even said. [laughter] So, I'm I'm distracted. And somebody might go basket case. Then I've got your number, Justin. You're a basket case. That display revealed everything I need to know. And maybe they got a point. But I'm saying that it is profound and shouldn't go to waste. what you said that is unbelief. That is what you want whether you like it or not. What you want is to 99% of the time feel good and and 1% of the time maybe feel bad versus somebody that 99% of the time feels bad, maybe doesn't even know they feel bad and then 1% of the time feels good.

[00:51:56]Because if someone if someone tells you you know that's not enough and then I would tell them okay first get there and then come back to me you see because because you know what happens also is there is this picture that a liberate one or sage whatever uh has to be 100% % perfect 100 but that doesn't exist you know what happens they are just human Jesus was human was human Buddha was human after they pass away the one who got the message really you know they too they become happy 99% of the time or 99.99% and they just live their life and shut up the ones that were not happy. They create a religion. And so every every year the dead sage who was at the origin of of the religion get uh lifted up, jacked up by one meter.

[00:53:19]Right. After 2,000 year, the guy is 2 kilometer up.

[00:53:27]So he's absolutely perfect. You see what I mean?

[00:53:30]>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:31]>> After the guy died, I mean, he he was doing miracles. Everything was perfect.

[00:53:36]He never sinned, you know. He never had sex. He never, you know, Jesus never had sex. Right.

[00:53:43]>> Right.

[00:53:44]>> Except for that one time that they didn't add to the script.

[00:53:48]I mean, come on.

[00:53:49]>> Yeah. No one talks about No one talks about Larry who was twice as enlightened as even Jesus and who, you know, I mean, he didn't make the cut. Like, what I'm literally saying is some I saw this video where the guy was talking about John the Baptist and he was go and he said, uh, John the Baptist was already somebody that was like a prophet and stuff like that. And Jesus felt compelled to get baptized by him like like Jesus said something like he was the greatest guy that ever exists and he's a footnote essentially in the Bible. And so we can get kind of hung up I think on certain things like well what precise degree are you suffering to compared to that guy who's who's who only suffers a half of a fraction you know and your joke was totally appropriate about the the priest and the rabbi. Um I don't know that's just my style. This is just my weird temperament to break things down this way. Maybe we can like I like to ask spiritual teachers about consciousness because I feel like everyone kind of tells their uh definition of consciousness in their own way and maybe we could unpack a little bit about consciousness. Uh if it is, is it the rock bottom of all reality? And uh what what is it? First first we as as you mentioned first we have to to come up with a definition which is clear >> and upon which we agree >> uh not not because then we are so my definition is consciousness is the reality which is hearing my words right now.

[00:55:27]Consciousness is the reality which is hearing my words right now. So let let me unpack this. My words are being heard, right?

[00:55:39]>> Apparently >> not before but now. [laughter] So my words are being heard. Uh that is beyond any doubt.

[00:55:52]The hearing is beyond any doubt.

[00:55:55]Therefore there is an element of reality because it's beyond any doubt. It's absolutely certain. So it's true. It's absolutely true. There is an element of truth or of reality that attaches to consciousness as I define it. That which perceives this element of reality authorizes me to define consciousness as the reality that perceives.

[00:56:29]You see? So and now so that's the first step. Consciousness is my reality.

[00:56:37]It is a reality that perceives. This definition is efficient because as I say it you can verify it. You see otherwise if I say if I look in the in the in the webster dictionary I see consciousness and I see awareness. So I go to awareness and I say consciousness. So I go to consciousness. Okay. It's circular because if we remain on the level of words it remains circular.

[00:57:12]We we we we never touch the thing we are talking about. But here because I say consciousness is the reality which is hearing my words right now. you can immediately verify that you're hearing my words that you see it's me and and words are being heard and there is something real to it because I cannot deny it you see so so that's because when scientists talk about consciousness or or other or many people they talk about the content of consciousness the thoughts the perceptions the sensations the image changes in the mind.

[00:57:56]They never talk about the reality that perceives and that's the big diff the major difference. It's it's weird that it all gets talked about in a in a discussion. It's weird that the subject of consciousness or liberation often gets its most uh stage time in the context of social stuff. Like I was saying one time, um, here's some things that can unenlighten you. Doom scrolling and involving yourself in the news or going and spending a bunch of prolonged time with people who are going to pull you back into an identity that you're possessed by. But at the end of the day, it's like, what is true when everything's quiet and there's no one around or no one to validate or no one to this or that? We could talk about this till the the cows come home. Sounds like I'm making maybe an obscure point, but I think it it's relevant here, which is like who even all three of us are on here is a little different than who all three of us are outside of this realm.

[00:58:56]And what is true when no one's looking?

[00:58:58]What is true when there's no more uh opportunity to may say the right thing or present it just the right way?

[00:59:07]>> Well, that's the idea. This is what I'm saying now is probably sidelining somebody that's serious about uh enlightenment work or something like that. But between the three of us, I just noticed a phenomenon here that sort of like you alluded to earlier, there are people that get enlightened and they go off and they become a shopkeeper or they go off and they're a regular guy, you know. But what we're doing here is something interesting is this is we're recording this conversation and we're we're we're bringing forward a character and I and I that fascinates me because there's people that make it their business and it's and I totally believe that they're awakened or I totally like I they have the evidence of somebody that's awakened or or liberated or enlightened and yet they to do the interview thing or to do write the book or to have the conversation something like a character reemerges, like something like an identity reemerges.

[01:00:02]Like there could be a pretension that happens here where it's like, "Oh, I I got it and I am liberated and so I'm not going to like I'm not going to do anymore. I'm going to like sit here and not even communicate."

[01:00:15]Um, what is the reality of that and all this? You know, is that like who who takes center stage for the authority on these things if everybody's zened out and chilled out and nobody's clamoring, nobody's even trying to get anyone to like their content or no one's trying to really has even the basic agenda of making a point, you know, because some people literally make claims like, I have no agenda. There's not an agenda in there. I don't even know why I'm saying anything. You know, it was a very uh unformulated point that I made there, but I'm pointing to something. Can anyone help me figure out what I'm pointing to?

[01:00:53]>> Well, it sounds like you're talking about a reemergence of like the ego, like willingly or knowingly allowing ego to somewhat take a place back in your life after maybe self-realizing >> and the fact that we're swayed and compelled by packaging. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that are obvious. Like, it's obvious like, man, you suck socially. You know, you're not getting the cues. That's obvious for all to see. But at the end of the day, the tr the kind of truth that we're pointing to regarding consciousness here.

[01:01:24]There still seems to be things that emerge like that 1% of suffering that can still come up. You know sometimes I think even that remainder suffering that happens is even that little suffering is interpreted different by the enlightened person. It's not a problem for them. Um but in lie of this conversation that we've had and the approach that we've taken and the attempt that we've all had to make sense of it. What can be said about the remainder that's left that's that that is brought forward in this discussion that character that comes forward there there's no shoulds is there's not a should about proper conduct that could be left is there >> two observations two observations >> sure we are different like a flowers have different colors and shapes so some people. I'm I'm more from the south of France. So my genetic my form of expression I move my hands a little more etc. I am more emphatic. [cough] In other words uh some people are quick some people are slow. uh these qualities or these features of the human body mind about us they don't change they are in our genes it's part of the ego there is a personality but the problem is we use of the word ego but then I don't use the word ego because ego then These features they are being distorted by something else which is ignorance and ignorance is the belief to be a a a person a separate individual and that is the I said ear the party poopa that is that which distorts and if I can explain that so the second point I want to make is this commonly it is said by psychologist ologist that we have three selfim images.

[01:03:40]We have the way we believe to be.

[01:03:46]We have the way we believe to be, the way we want to appear to others, and the way others perceive us.

[01:04:01]But when we are free from the identification, what you see is what you get. That's a big difference. Everything, these three personalities, if you will, converge and they are one. What you see is what you get. I mean, I'm not trying to be calm and flegmatic and Anglo-Saxon type of guy, you know.

[01:04:33]>> I'm not trying what you see is what you get. Sometimes I use bad words and uh that's it. Uh sometimes I'm I am more learned because that's my education. I'm not trying to be one way or the other.

[01:04:48]You see that's a thing that I don't care ultimately it it as you get more free about the belief to be separate you don't have to pretend. [clears throat] >> Yeah.

[01:05:01]>> You don't care. You see I don't care. I don't care.

[01:05:03]>> And you don't and you don't even care that somebody's going I think you do care. [laughter] You know what I mean? Like like for real like like I'm saying truly not caring is not caring that people are positive you do care. Like I'm not making a smart alaky point. I mean I'm agreeing with what you're saying. Um but but true not caring is realizing people are going to make it what it is whatever you are what they will.

[01:05:28]>> I don't care what people think of me.

[01:05:30]You see for instance I don't care if they think I'm not realized. I don't care because for me nobody is realized.

[01:05:36]>> You see nobody I'm not realized. Nobody is realized. Only only the self is realized.

[01:05:42]>> Yeah. Bombshell. Bombshell. Did you hear what he just said? We heard it here.

[01:05:45]Nobody has realized.

[01:05:47]>> We are all the same consciousness.

[01:05:49]That's all I'm trying to say. We are all >> the big secret because we go back to the consciousness I defined as that which is hearing my words right now. This reality people believe that it is dependent upon the body that it is limited.

[01:06:08]The the open secret, the big secret is that we all share it. That this consciousness is the only reality there is. It is that which creates the world, that which creates the stars, that which creates all beings, you know, and it is so present to us that we are not even aware of it. Jesus says in the in the Thomas gospel you know the Thomas gospel >> because that's the Thomas go is the best one because it is about the teachings of Jesus not that much about the story about the the biography but not that the other ones are they are very profound insight in the other ones of course also but Jesus says in Thomas gospel, if you want to hide something from the crowd, you put it on the roof for all to see because the crowds they are attracted by the windows, by the objects, they never look up.

[01:07:21]>> Yeah.

[01:07:21]>> They they look for it everywhere.

[01:07:25]>> We all have like opposite syndrome. It's a psychological principle. this tendency towards reverse reversing psychology.

[01:07:32]There's another story where Osho goes just to mess with the priest. He goes, "Hey, you should put up a sign on the side of that church because bunch of people are peeing on the wall." And so the priest put a sign that says, "Do not pee on the wall." And the next day there's a lineup of people all pissing on the wall just despite the sign. And that's and not to distract from your absolutely awesome point, which is that is where you hide the thing is where everybody can see.

[01:07:55]the the consciousness you're talking about for some people might just be a realiz oh it's literally been here the whole goddamn time I wasn't paying attention to it >> it's obvious to us because if you ask someone are you conscious [snorts] he would say of course yes I am conscious I hear you I am conscious yeah >> but then uh they would say so what >> so what yeah yeah >> because the all the fact that they say Yes, I am conscious is it's open for all beings to see.

[01:08:32]But they say so what meaning they don't see the importance of it. They don't lift the head to really look at it. They don't see that it is their most precious good. You see, because look, let's say [clears throat] people believes some guy is filthy wealthy, right? Then he gets COVID. He's in the hospital on a incubated, right? Because he cannot breathe, right? And this guy, he would give all of his wells, everything just to be able to breathe because he thinks, I mean, he's intubated. He doesn't think any longer, but you are getting my drift. Uh >> things that we have for free. The sunset the light of the sun breathing just breathing we take it for granted right but if it is removed from us we suffer and we realize how precious it was.

[01:09:38]>> Yeah.

[01:09:38]>> The most important uh uh gifts that are made to us as humans are free. the rest. I mean, who cares about truffles or caviar? You see what I mean? If you were served caviar every day, you say, "Oh, I you know what? I would like to have a potato." You say, "The best book of the Bible is the book of Thomas, and it's not in a cannon." Like, I'm not going to pontificate on the conspiracy of that, but I'm saying the best book is the book of Thomas. And I didn't even know that verse was in it, I don't think. Or I forgot it was if I did. It is. But that's a great book of the Bible. If you're a Christian, go read the book of Thomas.

[01:10:20]>> Uh yeah, I I like that. Well, Francis, I I know we could keep talking. We're on a little bit of a time crunch today. Um I just want to say thank you so much for spending some time with us.

[01:10:34]>> Um one of the things we like to do uh at the end of these conversations is kind of give our guest the last say. So, if you have like one overarching message that you just want to give out there to anyone who's watching this video, uh we'll we'll give you uh that platform and then maybe after you're done, you can let everyone know where they can find you, what you got going on and all that good stuff.

[01:11:01]U there is only one reality which we experience as this consciousness which is hearing my words right now.

[01:11:14]I could there is only one reality eternal, happy, beautiful, intelligent and it is that which is hearing my words right now. And because it is the only reality, we all share it. We all are the same consciousness and this experience is love.

[01:11:42]That's it. Wonderful.

[01:11:44]>> Beautiful. Now, now maybe just let everyone know where they can find you on what platforms and stuff and all that and YouTube or just on the internet do a search and my website frances.com. You'll see the events and everything.

[01:12:01]>> All right. Awesome. Great. Thank you so much. This was awesome.

[01:12:05]>> Thank you for having me.

[01:12:11]>> [music] [music]