Birth Trauma in Foals and impacts on behaviour

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:05]Good evening and welcome everybody um to what is going to be a really exciting webinar I'm sure um on the very important topic of birth trauma. Um it's something that I think affects um you know more horses than than we sometimes think and um and it's wonderful to have our experts here tonight to tell us more about this. And before I introduce our experts, I want to say um hello also to my um colleagues and fellow board members. So there's Nadine who's been running the show for us who's been organizing everything behind the scenes.

[00:00:42]And um then there's um I can see Andre and I can see our honorary member um Paul Lubar. Lovely to see you here Paul.

[00:00:50]And um and yes and welcome to you all from all over the world. It's lovely to have participants really from you know from everywhere. After all we are the world breeding federation. So let's bring the world and to breeding and breeding to the world and welcome to you all. It's now um actually Nadine has reminded me that I need to remind you all please first of all to keep yourself muted and this helps with um you know the smooth running of the webinar because otherwise we can get interference and please also if you have not already done so can you put your full names um in your windows and if you are representing a start book also the name of your start book. This helps us if you have any follow- on questions, we can then follow those up with you and can make sure that you get the contacts and the information you need. So really, really helpful to do that. Please, first name, surname, and start book if you're representing if you're here for a startbook. And of course, we welcome all breeders, also those who are not just involved in one stat book. So that's all good. And now let me introduce our experts for tonight. Um we have um Beth Shaw and I think she's assisted by Robin Bavar. Um Beth uh many of you will remember from the fantastic presentation she did for us in South Africa at the general assembly which was absolutely fascinating and we all enjoyed that very much and um and I think Beth you can tell us a little bit more about Robin as well and um and about your work but as far as I'm concerned um you did a fantastic presentation on the ET technique the equin transceiver technique and You are of course an expert in biomechanics and I think you have practices both in South Africa and Hong Kong that must keep you very busy working with um also the Hong Kong Jockey Club for example and top level Equin athletes. So really you know fantastic CV and thank you so much for your time tonight and I think I'm going to top stop talking now and let you get on with it.

[00:03:02]Thank you so much for the intro and thank you very much for having us tonight. Um can we start with the the presentation? Okay. Is that is this coming across clearly to everyone?

[00:03:17]>> Yeah, we can see that fine. Looks really good.

[00:03:19]>> Perfect.

[00:03:20]>> Perfect. Okay. So, today we're going to look into Dr. Ian Bidstrap's research on ecoin birth trauma and link it into some of our new findings. on the components of the collagen matrix.

[00:03:34]This is Robin Butterworth. Um, she works with me here at Bet Academy. And sorry, the dogs in the background.

[00:03:45]So, I'm Beth Shaw, owner and founder of Betad Academy. And as we mentioned earlier, I practice in Hong Kong with the Hong Kong Jockey Club as well as um with the sport horses in Upper China and Changdu.

[00:03:59]And then we run a practice here in South Africa and also branching out into Madagascar. So a lot of my practice is with the um raceh horses, but we do support the sport horses in both dress and share jumping. Robin has been with me for many years at the Bet Academy and she is the academic facilitator and principal at Bet in South Africa.

[00:04:26]K. Yeah.

[00:04:27]>> Yeah. Here's a picture of the academy and me in the field with the students in assistance.

[00:04:34]So, um um hold on. Across the equin disciplines, horses present neck issues and this seems to become a growing concern. Nowadays, we have the um ability to X-ray, ultrasound um and discover more about what's actually going on in the mechanics of the neck and the sternum. And in my work with working with the sport horse, I reached I started to do more research and I came across Ian's work and this changed my perspective of neck trauma quite a bit. And the reason I just wanted to bring forth his information is he has a fantastic website um YouTube um videos out there, webinars that share a lot of research and um ideas and his history on birth trauma and I found it fascinating.

[00:05:36]So that's why I wanted to bring it forth here on this platform and then bring it and compare it with my recent work of locating the components of the collagen matrix and explaining how that tension shifts through the collagen matrix and through the the horse. So today we're going to look at some of his research and bring forth what it points out about trauma in the sternum area and the lower neck. And then we're going to introduce the ecoin concertina which I started to talk about in October when we were at the assembly.

[00:06:14]And then tonight I'm going to bring forth some of my findings on hyper extension of the spine and possibly the consequences of the tissues and nerves involved and then connect that to Bitstrap's work and then discuss the self-grooming self-pus that we mentioned often also at the assembly and present it to you as if we observe the FO and the dams and their interaction, might it reveal more to us? So, we're taking Ian's structural research and then we're going to look at my observational research in my current work with the collagen matrix and then we're going to bring it back to the fos and the dams and see if that going forward in the future if we share this knowledge and we start to watch our fos and dams and their interaction will we be able to notice how and where their underlying tension is.

[00:07:16]Okay, so here we go. At birth, the sternum to the withers region is soft.

[00:07:22]It's highly malleable with the developing collagen matrix providing much of the structural support. These tissues are not fully stabilized.

[00:07:33]So compressive and or abnormal forces during birth and early development may influence how the tension patterns form through the thorat, the neck, the forlims and the right raise and this raises the question of how much early structural abdation and distortion may predispose some of these horses to hyperextension patterns later in life.

[00:08:00]So, I'm trying to say that if if that horse has been damaged in birth or through the birthing pro process, what then happens when he's put into high stress going into a fence or high levels of dress or in the racing? um where if we look at possibly making that collagen matrix, that structure, that scaffolding that much stronger in their young years, that much more balanced. How much of a better sports horse are we going to have? How much stronger is that constitution of his neck and the neck meeting the thoratic vertebrae? How much stronger can that be if we recognize what's happened at that junction in birth? And that's where Ian's work is just fascinating.

[00:08:55]Here are some stats and Robin's going to step in here um and go through some of Ian's work. Now this is all on his website and many articles and um a and I do list his YouTube pres um webinar which is about an hourong great video.

[00:09:14]>> Okay guys, so we've just picked out some sort of key components from from some of the studies that have been done. Um so in 2003 on 760 foss it was found that 90 9% which was 67 fos had thoracic trauma at necropsy. Rib fractures were present in 19 fos as as a direct cause of death.

[00:09:38]Ribs 3 to eight were most commonly affected.

[00:09:42]94% of lesions occurred at the costtochondral junction. So the junction where the rib meets the sternum.

[00:09:48]Basically, the high incidence of costtochondrial fractures around T3 to T8 and thoracic asymmetry suggests that birth compression forces may establish long-term restrictions within the thoracic sling.

[00:10:04]These restrictions may later manifest as girth sensitivity, postural asymmetries, and compensatory spinal loadings in the adult horse. According to research done in 2007, it was found that at least 80% of rib fractures picked up by ultrasound are missed on X-ray. This finding 5% with fractured ribs as per the 99 papers translates actually to 20% or one in five FOs with major rib trauma and not just a rib sternal junction trauma as mentioned before.

[00:10:41]So during birth, the false rib cage, especially at the shoulder and wither, is subjected to significant forces and particularly prone to injury. Rib fractures are not always visible without specific examination, but their presence can significantly impact comfort and performance throughout the horse's life.

[00:10:59]A large study found that over 20% of FO had ri fractures or disrupted ribbed to breast bone junctions at birth. The fourth to sixth thoracic vertebrae are the most frequently affected and there are lots of post-mortem studies to support these findings. Right side issues such as right wither and pelvic damage are the most common leading to problems like difficulty with the right caner lead and a dropped hip. This research research underscores the importance of careful assessment in neonatal foss and ongoing monitoring for subtle signs of birth related trauma as these may influence the hor's behavior, comfort and ride ability for years to come.

[00:11:41]>> Thank you. Don't do anymore.

[00:11:45]>> Uh the overview of the research birth trauma is a major factor in girth weather and flank sensitivity which we see almost daily. can cause issues with which often manifest as fear and anxiety, one-sidedness, sacroiliac imbalances, and saddle fit problems. Can result in discomfort for the horse and dramatically affect rider balance and performance. Critical injuries to the spinal column and rib cage at birth will may or we believe will have lasting effects on the nervous system.

[00:12:20]Okay. So, here on the slide you can see Dr. Bitstrap's um website, the YouTube channel. Um the main thing that he kept repeating a lot in a lot of his research and um webinars is that there's no significant lameness or if horses had rij injuries, two days later they're moving fine around the camp with their moms and their mates and there was nothing that stood out. But as they grew up and then became athletic horses, being ridden, being this and that, more a asymmetry showed up. Um, identifying and treating any birth injuries at an early stage may assist breeders in decreasing potential performance disadvantages. So, I found that very interesting.

[00:13:07]Um, yeah, and that's another good article there on the right.

[00:13:12]So this brings us to the ecoin concertina. Um here through the years of tracking muscular sceal stress we started to recognize patterns and I joined forces with Sarah from Scotland. She's a retired veterinarian and author. Um and I joined with her in about 2016. So, I've taken a lot of my practical work in the stable every day with the ecoin athlete and reported it back to Sarah for over 10 years following patterns and we soon recognized the muscle hubs and inner hub tension lines.

[00:13:56]So the ecoin concertina highlights the key components of a bilateral diamond latus that functions within the larger collagen matrix providing an intricate architectural framework for force transmission throughout the body. The components of this ecoin constantina are muscle hubs, inner hub tension lines, three balance points of equilibrium and anchor points. The reason I bring this forth with Ian's work is that if we can start to look at the horse through these components, we might be able to pick up more just by looking at the horse, the mare and the fall together, the fall moving. We might be able to notice where there's underlying stress.

[00:14:44]So we have here muscle hubs. In this diagram, we've got the muscle hubs, the anchor points along the dorsal aspect and the vententral aspect, and the three balance points of equilibrium. You'll see one in the trunk, one in the hind quarter, and one in the neck.

[00:15:02]The ecoin concertina as a framework illustrates how tension and force are distributed throughout the body, the interconnected diamond patterns. The ecoin concertina provides a way of viewing the horse integrated tental system rather than isolated anatomical regions. Developing understanding of this model may help us recognize where a full or mature horse is harboring trauma, restriction, excess tension with devel with within its developing body.

[00:15:35]So I'll briefly go through these components.

[00:15:39]Here we have muscle hubs.

[00:15:42]The muscle hubs are areas where two or more muscles overlap while acting in different directions, convergent points of tension, and they're capable of adjusting local and systematic tension. And they also are regions where tissues may recruit additional muscles to support local motion. If the tension is not properly managed to the hub, asymmetry and compensatory patterns patterns can develop. So here we can see with Ian's work, he was talking about hub three. Um so that's in the girth region and then we've got hub 18 um in the pectorals there.

[00:16:30]>> Sorry. And you can see how it transfers down the leg and then is also connected with the neck. So these are muscle hubs.

[00:16:37]There's 22 muscle hubs on each side of the horse.

[00:16:44]Okay. And then we have our inner hub tension lines. Inner hub tension lines are diagonal connective pathways that link one muscle hub to another forming concertina diamond patterns behind ecoin locomotion.

[00:17:00]The inner hub tension lines are pathways for transmitting mechanical tension between the main muscle hubs.

[00:17:08]So as I continue to talk, think about these points in these lines when you think about how a mare and f communicate where they interact. This is going to you'll start to when you start to look at these components and see we're going to show you other examples soon of how when horses get together they often go to these points these muscle hubs and when they go to these muscle hubs now you can think about how they're shifting the tension.

[00:17:40]Um so we go to the next one. These hand drawings here are all during the development of finding the hubs, the inner hub tension lines, starting to make sense of how force transmission is moved throughout the ecoin athlete.

[00:17:59]The balance points, the balance points are areas that um of equin equilibrium. So how that horse stays balanced is through three points in its body. The crossover points of in they are the crossover points of inner hub tension lines creating the primary diamonds of the ecoin constantina. These points are tangible, visible to the trained eye in our regions where opposing forces cross over in the horse's body, allowing connective tissue to efficiently transmit force transmission intention. Sorry, there's a few more words there, but yeah. So, these are all Sarah's drawings from about 2022 21. There's one. Okay, here's our anchor points. So, your anchor points are they run dorsal and vententral. As I mentioned before, they're fixed locations and they rest on the sceal foundation such as the dorsal spin spinal sposal processes, pubic bone, sternum as well as connective structures including the nucleinatus ligaments, the linear alba and converging muscles of the vententral chest and neck.

[00:19:26]These are these structures act as essential reference points for the collagen matrix. So it's where the tension transmits through to the other side. Although considered fixed, anchor points remain adaptable in young horses.

[00:19:41]They are more fluid until the growth plate ocification occurs. So that anchor point in the forehead, anchor point eight, that only closes later in life.

[00:19:51]the anchor point under the jaw, the anchor point in the front of the chest, anchor point four, these only form in our warm blood in our sport horses at the age of five or six. Um, so consider if we consider it in that manner, those points, those where the the bones are only really growing together at much later years.

[00:20:16]Have I said enough on that one?

[00:20:19]Here's a image of the ecoin concertina in motion on a sport horse. Just gives you some insight as to how it does move into different directions.

[00:20:30]Now, we're going to talk a little bit about collagen. And so, collagen is the base, the cell, the structure of the collagen matrix. And I'll hand you back over to Robin.

[00:20:42]So just briefly through this slide um type one collagen forms the backbone of this continuum. The collagen cells grow to form broad sheets of finely laced dense supportive tissue known as superficial fascia. Within muscles the same matrix organizes into fine layers.

[00:21:01]A delicate sheet called the endomiscium wraps each muscle fiber. Bundles of fiber fibers fuse into the perryimasium and finally the whole muscle is encased in an epimeium like a sleeve. Together these layers are all known as the myofascia. Within organs collagen appears as connective tissue linking structure and function. Nearly onethird of your horse's body is collagen making it the quiet foundation of strength, flow, and force transmission. Collagen fibers underly many fascial structures in the locomotive system. Remarkably strong and noted for their tensile strength. These fibers withstand high tension, they gather where forces are transmitted through the horse's body, acting as both a protective and supportive scaff scaffolding.

[00:21:53]Okay. The co the ecquin collagen matrix is a continuous bodywide network that transmits tens tensional force.

[00:22:02]Mechanical energy and bioelect electric charge supporting the horse's structure and locomotion. Muscle and bone, ligament, tendon, nerve and blood cells are all embedded within three-dimensional web which spreads through the whole body linking parts into one locomotive system. This web conducts vibration, coherence, and force, turning local cellular pulses into whole body flow.

[00:22:28]Okay. So, now we're going to go from talking about the components of the collagen matrix and what holds the tension together to hyperextension of the ecoin spine.

[00:22:42]So, bringing this back to our findings is this is when I first started to reach out to Sarah coming across neck pain, coming across horses that were in um coming across neck pain, sternum pain, and this is what started my journey on finding the muscle hubs in the components of the collagen matrix. I'll read a piece from Sarah's book. The entire system of back muscles is divided into two major portion. One spans the lumbar and thoratic spine and the other spans the vertebrae of the neck. They all c cross over in the region of the first rib. So now we're back take a step outside. We're back to Ian's work. The first rib area when maximum force is applied the back and neck muscles are capable of hyper extending the spine.

[00:23:36]usually with severe consequences for the structures at the base of the neck.

[00:23:40]These structures also involve nerves.

[00:23:45]Hyperextension is caused by a sudden sharp excessive movement. So jumping out of the starting gates, landing from a fence which leads to intense force transmission going through the spine and coming to the base of the neck. The nuclear ligament. When this happens, the nuclear ligament may yield at our anchor point 9 which we talked about earlier in the earlier slide. The scaline muscles then begin to work in opposite directions and the result is displace stress or displacement on the brachial plexus the nerve hub of the four quarter.

[00:24:24]So, why I found this interesting is this is a real part of my work and yet Ian's done all this research on it and he's saying so much of this trauma happens in birth and maybe it's not all happening in the training. Maybe it's happening before they even start work. So, here you can see me pointing to the area of high anchor point 9. It's a bit higher up onto the nuclear ligament.

[00:24:51]And then these lower pictures here give you a little nook and a dent. And those are both on muscle hub 8.

[00:25:00]Let's go back to my writing here. A theory of hyperextension of the spine in sport horses. It is caused by sudden sharp excess movement that leads to intense force transmission through the spine thrusting through T7 C T1 C7 junction. I wrote it that way because of the force coming through. May also be involving C6. Through my work, I've noticed this causes make I notice this may cause the nuclear ligament to yield at AP9. So, as I've said, how does this connect with Ian's work? By sharing my own observation alongside Ian's research, I hope to encourage breeders to view FO through the lens of the concertina.

[00:25:47]So if you consider both his findings and my practical experience and observe your fo with this perspective together we may uncover new insight that will better support the development of our sport horses.

[00:26:05]Here is me in the field in China looking at a horse with an undiagnosible for limb lameness.

[00:26:14]And then here again this is anchor point. This the picture on the right is anchor point five in the involving the longest coli again pointing to anchor point 9. And this bottom picture is a nice big old dent at muscle hub 8.

[00:26:33]So here you see longest coli is also affected especially around anchor point five.

[00:26:39]So here I'm finding that the damage at anchor point four and three disrupts the normal tension patterns and may challenge change how the horse loads the lower limb. Relating this back to Ian's work, foss with sternal trauma often develop an asymmetry pattern around the rib fourth and fifth rib cartilage which may lead to compensatory lower limb dysfunction. So the the two the sightings are following each other involves key fascia structures es especially the sterno par paricardium and the diaphragm.

[00:27:24]Uh clinical implications tension shifts at muscle hub 4. Muscle hub four is the one back in the abdominals in the um under in the lower part of the trunk.

[00:27:36]Muscle hub 4 links directly into the anchor point one which is at the base of the pelvis. Dysfunction can travel throughout the collagen matrix even causing disruption to the paricardium.

[00:27:49]Evidence of act active and past hyperextension of the spine has been presented to me through the racehorse, the show jumper, the and the dr horse. This explanation and pattern of hyperextension can be linked and supported by nerve spots and hawk scars which we discussed at the last assembly.

[00:28:10]So here is just an example of a imported sport horse. You can see the m big tension in his neck. Um but that's not the cause. The cause of that tension in his neck is from weakness in his sternum and lower neck.

[00:28:29]You can see him below jumping um and using his neck properly. Took a lot of work to get him to that stage.

[00:28:39]Now I'm going to now bring in the natural horse wellbeing just so this may be a way for breeders and people on the ground to evaluate what's happening with the collagen matrix after birth. Um and here you can see two horses mutually two fos mutually grooming.

[00:29:01]What is natural horse well-being? It is self-grooming, self-pus and mutual grooming. Behaviors such as self-grooming and mutual grooming may provide early indic indicators of asymmetry or restriction within the body. By recognizing these patterns, we can begin assessing the integrity of the system from the very beginning.

[00:29:25]This awareness may support the development of sounder performance horses with a greater longevity for their career.

[00:29:34]So here I just talk about what self-grooming is.

[00:29:38]Um, self-grooming is when your horse uses its own body to maintain comfort, relieve tension, and stimulate sensation. It includes behaviors such as rolling, tail swishing, nibbling, rubbing, licking, chewing, chewing movements, yawning, stretching, stamping, pawing, shaking.

[00:30:01]You have to remember I spend every single day in the stable with these horses and watch where they move and how they move. So none of it's random. You know, when a horse goes to adjust tension, he's go when a horse goes to his lower leg after you take the cell off or finish your riding, he's going to do something. Adjust tension, improve circulation, stimulation.

[00:30:26]Here you can see the horses mutually grooming. It's much more than a social act. Um although I'm in the stable, those horses join me and um through the walls, through the windows, and I've learned so much from watching their mannerism between each other. And then putting the ecoin concertina on pictures of horses mutually grooming. You can see here this horse is in the area of hub muscle hub one and a direct stimulation to muscle hub five which is then going to the base of the horse's pelvis. So here although it looks like he's just massaging the horse's back, he's adjusting tension into the other horse's pelvis.

[00:31:12]Um, and it can also be a let's see repeated strokes.

[00:31:20]It's a new way to look at mutual grooming. And this is a new way for you to look at the horses, the fos in the camps with each other, what they're doing.

[00:31:30]There's a great article here by um Sharon Davis and she did a 20 24-week study of self-grooming of mares and foss. And here we can see. So what I'm trying to bring to light here is that if we look at the horses through the lens of the concertina, what are they trying to adjust? I mean, here we've got this little full working through the bottom of his jaw. And we know that that's live and still growing and still coming together. How can we help these horses balance themselves better?

[00:32:06]South Pus. So, you might giggle at me here, but none of it's random.

[00:32:12]I spend my life in these stables, and the Hong Kong Jockey Club stables are very clean. So, when these horses strategically plant this manure up against certain parts of their body, it's there for a reason. Are they adjusting compensation? Are they adding heat? Are they adjusting the tension?

[00:32:29]But it's the same with your mars and f with the foss. Where are they always going to roll? Where is that mud packed on? Um, where are they always itching?

[00:32:40]The self pul pus is not random. And it's really fun when you start to map it and study it.

[00:32:49]So here we just put this in as the ecoin concertina putting it on a fo and then the picture the second picture is how some of my students have map the self pus and the self-grooming when the horse rolls um when he rolls where is he always rolling where's the mud being packed on how is he trying to adjust the tension by identifying these issues early we can strengthen the integrity of the system especially through understanding the components of the collagen matrix from the very start potentially leading to sounder performance horses.

[00:33:27]So we encourage you to engage in with the ecoin concertina and self and map self-grooming and self-pus because if you take the time to map your horses the foss if um you might see a consistent pattern. So then you might ask yourself is that compensation? Is he hurting on that side? But once you can map it and look at it on a routine basis, it's you might find you will start to identify underlying pain and tension.

[00:34:02]clinical developments in ecoin cervical surgeries um such as these undertaken oh it's just at a recent veterinary conference in China with um some vets from Ecquit and it's really showing the high that really highlighted the growing recognition of a neck related pathology in the in the sporators and through my international travels and clinic work I have observed notable prevalence of cervical ical dysfunction across a wide range of horses. I found it very beneficial to link into Ian's work. Oh gosh, I'm talking in circles here, but it's it's good to link into his work and um find the research he's done behind it and understand that there is a lot we can be aware of as um young foss are developing.

[00:34:58]So, I'm just very grateful for this opportunity to get some of these thoughts out there and I look forward to chatting to everyone this evening.

[00:35:08]>> Thank you so much, Beth, for and and Robin for a really um I mean very thoughtprovoking um and very farreaching actually overview of of your fascinating work.

[00:35:21]Um, yeah, I think we would I would very much like to open the floor to questions from our participants. While people are thinking about it, I've actually got a question for you. Um, I think it's really interesting what you say about observing our FO and also our horses, you know, in their grooming behaviors and in their self-pacing. I thought that's a really good way of looking at poo stains. Now, I'm going to have a completely different um sort of thought about them now. um as I'm scrubbing away at my great big gray stallion. Um but um is there something we can do straight after birth to give our foes a bit of a check over to see you know you know what would be the signs of birth trauma that we can we can maybe look for you know very shortly after birth even.

[00:36:12]Well, I think at this stage you're you you guys are very much tied into your vets and um observing them on a very clinical stage, but I think one thing to really look at is what the mom's done, what the mom does, where she goes, where is she concerned, um what are her first reactions, what are the fo's first reactions, what's happening with his ma muzzle, what's the natural connection? I think we can learn a lot from that communication. That's what I've learned in my work. The more in tune I can get to the horse and pay attention to the movements, they're so subtle, but they're there.

[00:36:52]Yeah. Yeah. No, I I just think that's really really interesting is because we don't often make that link. We start worrying about our horses when we put a saddle on them, don't we? And then realize certain things don't work the way we expected. So, I think this is where breeders come in. Yeah.

[00:37:09]>> Yeah. And I just I mean the breeders will know more more than I but I just really I think there's a lot to learn about what the other horse has to say the mother and the full communication but the horses around they know where that horse isn't vibrating right. They know where the problems are. Even if you have a horse that's routinely getting bitten at the same place, it's because the other horses know his communication's not great there, believe it or not.

[00:37:41]>> Yeah, that's interesting. Now, have we got any other questions? Um, people are very welcome. If you don't want to speak, you can also write your questions in the chat.

[00:37:52]I have a question because you showed us one slide where there were the indentations on the horses and is that what we actually call a prophet's thumbrint and there's the the old wife's tale that a prophet's thumbrint is a sign of a good temperament but it's obviously actually not that at all.

[00:38:11]>> Yeah. So I guess that is one thing to answer Eva's question we could bring into is at birth if you are seeing dense um scars in the hawk that would probably be indicating that the horse has had issues to its sternum or lower neck. Um but yes the the dents in the neck are most likely results of shifting through the sternum and the lower neck. And >> that's really really fascinating, isn't it? Because yeah, we've Yeah, as Nadine said, it's always been seen as a as a positive in a horse. And um and so we just need to really change our understanding and our thinking. And that's Yeah. I think Ana Twig would like to ask a question. She's welcome to unmute herself and and ask away.

[00:39:03]>> Hopefully you guys can hear me. I've not got the best signal because I'm out with the dogs while I'm listening to this.

[00:39:08]Sorry.

[00:39:09]Um, I think there was two parts to mine.

[00:39:12]First was around, and I'm sorry if this was covered in the webinar, but my internet dropped out. The grooming points. Do you think horses prefer certain grooming points like the top of the withers and the back because that's where those anchor points are and that's where they're having the most impact?

[00:39:27]>> Do you think that there's a link there?

[00:39:29]>> Yes.

[00:39:30]>> And then my second point kind of links into that. Um cuz there was research I'm pretty sure it's by Henley in the naughties that looked at folds and different levels of handling in folds and their voluntary um interaction with humans down the line um depending on how heavily they were handled at birth. And they said folds that even if they were held in a cradle hold or guided to the teeth actually showed some reservations towards humans further down the line compared to folds that didn't have that assistance. and they put it down to the fact that the cradle hold kind of puts pressure where predators would go. But looking at the overlays that you put onto the horses now, I'm wondering whether that actually puts pressure onto points that then has adverse and potentially uh sort of painful or uncomfortable stimulation into the muscular with the horses. Do you think that could be something?

[00:40:18]>> Yeah.

[00:40:19]>> Does that make sense?

[00:40:20]>> When they're wrapping >> Yes. Yeah.

[00:40:22]>> Yeah. I I think you're right there. I definitely think it could work that way round. Um, and I think also with the FO, the handling of the FO. So I think we seeing so much cervical trauma that's previously I'm talking the last 10 15 years, we weren't really diagnosing or looking at the neck as as causes of performance issues or lameness. But with and we always are sort of were looking at the training or what had happened to the horse, but never going back to the birth. And I think it's opened another door for us to go further back and those sort of birth traumas then predispose uh sort of cervical issues or thoracic external issues which obviously then comp there's compensation through the body as far as to say there could be a hand blameness. Um but then if if we do have birth trauma and then the foss are also handled not well the neck is very very vulnerable especially in that first year and foss are not always the easiest to handle.

[00:41:26]There's a lot of um things happening to that false body in those first sort of 6 months to a year. So I think um I haven't really answered your question but yes I definitely agree with you it can go that way round but those that first year of that false life I think are really really important in terms of predisposing things further down the line >> right I mean what a fascinating discussion this is turning into and we have quite a few more questions in fact I think I can see four more questions three more in the chat and then we've got Ailen has got her hands up as well um I'm just going to go for one with one in the chat And then I'm going to come to you Elen and then I'm going to go back to the chat if that's okay. I think that was roughly the right order. And so Regina would like to know is there any way we can reduce the risk of birth trauma? Is there something we can do with how we manage foing or our mares that could you know prevent this from occurring?

[00:42:23]>> Yeah. For example, when when you when you're helping a mare that's foing, many people pull. possibly that is something that we shouldn't be doing. I guess >> that's what Ian suggests. Ian says you have to be very his his the way I've interpret his work was that he's suggesting that more fullying is done outside. Um and we have to be very careful about assisting um but but yeah what was the original question? I think also it comes down to selecting the right stallions for the right mares. We seem to be breeding bigger better fos out of not necessarily the right broodmare. I think it can go right back to selection. Um unfortunately in the sport horse world that's what we're breeding for. So, I think it is going to be a um a thing that we're going to hopefully learn more about and how to deal with.

[00:43:23]Um yeah, but I think pulling is pulling.

[00:43:27]I I've worked in breeding, but you know, at that stage, it's life or death.

[00:43:30]Sometimes you've got to get them out. Um >> but we have to remember that it's malleable. It's it's malleable. So we can ma we if if it's addressed early enough we can try and manage it versus having a traumatic foing and then just when the fo's up and drinking that's we don't look at it again for 6 months um then rather be a little bit more observant in that phase and see if there is anything we can do at that stage to return the sort of body into balance.

[00:43:59]So, one thing he goes back quite often in his work is he says that these horses might have massive fractures in the ribs and in two days they're moving completely normal with the herd. It's un it's not limit it's not producing a head bobbing like this. That's what's amazing.

[00:44:15]>> It's really really interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. It's fascinating. Um Alien, you're next.

[00:44:21]>> Okay. Yeah. No, I'm really enjoying this and um Dr. Bidstrop's research is absolutely fantastic and I think we just need to get that awareness out there. Um I suppose my question is for um our two presenters like when do you get in there start working on these foss um you know how early do you start and what does because I work with foss as well and so I'm wondering what do your sessions look like? Uh I know they're hugely variable.

[00:44:52]Um I I'm wondering if you're working on uh your point system to like address the patterns that you're seeing or how are you working with the folds?

[00:45:05]>> So with sumi it's um the sumpi work I do is a mag magnetic hand magnetic massage with a small um handheld tool and they're very design they're designed um strokes. So, I would just softly m um I don't know if you can see this.

[00:45:29]It's not very clean, but um softly run through these strokes and the question the hub muscle hubs and the anchor anchor points and see what the tension's like and just activate it because the collagen matrix is thinking all the time. And if we connect with these points um through the strokes rhythmically then we can activate the collagen matrix to think and balance balance itself. So it doesn't need a lot of work but just touching base and then what I put forth to the group tonight was that if we look at the concert your falls through the lens of the concertina what will you see and is there a pattern and then hopefully we can chat about that again to see what people have picked up because I find it's amazing to see what nature puts forth where the manure is where the mom communicates where the other fos communicate, they'll tell us.

[00:46:33]>> And I think >> yeah, I find that the the foss bodies adapt so quickly. Um I'll usually start if there's a problem uh at two weeks old and I find that in two to three sessions um they'll change really quickly.

[00:46:52]>> Yeah, that's fantastic.

[00:46:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I just was interested and curious to know what like it sounds like you're what you're using because I just use manual um craniosacral and myofascial and so it is manual and with with foss um you know their nervous systems are just so much more sensitive. So just the whole concept of manual therapy on foss is a challenge in itself um at that age. So it's I'm just interested in your technique with the addressing points, you know, because they can only tolerate so much.

[00:47:31]>> Yes. And so I might just do a we have a butterfly stroke. And that's just the going up and down the the trunk in the inter up and down the intercostals. Very rhythmic. Um, and even if I just do that one stroke and a few strokes on the neck the one that one time, it's enough just to interact and see where the tension's going, how the horse reacts, and then make a decision from there. Yeah. And it could even be as simple as scratching. I mean, with FOS, that's my go-to to give them a good scratch. Um, and you'll find the spots they want you to scratch. If you just put that back into the concertina, you actually might start thinking, okay, and then we see where that scratch goes and then they scratch their leg and then we'll go and work on the leg. So, I know they're not always easy to handle, per se, but um we can also work with things they love. Um just like they would sort of mute groom themselves or mutual groom with, we kind of can also use those little techniques.

[00:48:31]So, small things that could make make really big difference in the body.

[00:48:36]>> Brilliant. That's brilliant. That's really interesting, you know, >> and I would love your feedback because if you look at the put the concertina on, you see that the horse is always going to a certain place. Where is that the compensation or is that the actual pain? So t sometimes the um where they're going to is the compensation. So we have to activate the other point.

[00:49:04]Mhm. I I find that I tend to stay away from the the pain because it just triggers them. So, I just have to work around um the tissue, you know. Anyway, I don't want to hog the conversation, but I just >> No, but I'd love your feedback if you look further into the concert.

[00:49:22]>> Yeah, maybe I I will. But uh I suppose different things that I think the history taking from anyone who was present at the birth if a pull had to take place you know what was it like when did the intervention take place um a lot of people will say foss lie down quite a lot um when they've had a traumatic birth. um that would be one of the first things that they would say that he just he's lies down a lot or contractions occurring that weren't there at birth, but by two weeks or 3 weeks old, they're seeing um contractions, you know, maybe at the knees uh that are that aren't a tendon contraction.

[00:50:08]>> Yeah.

[00:50:10]>> Yeah.

[00:50:10]>> Yeah. Yeah, I think this is this is fascinating and it kind of also feeds into Ashley's question because she said um what treatments options are available to us if we are suspecting these issues and I think um Ashley I think we've just heard a lot about treatment options so I think actually um we are we have covered that question as this um conversation evolved um and it's a it's a really really interesting one and um it's wonderful to actually hear you have have this conversation between you um it's great for us to see you know such great expertise also in our audience um tonight um and to see this conversation evolving. Um we have a question from Janice and um she asked whether putting a chip into the nuclear ligament causes some sort of damage in the young f. So I think this is a question about whether chip chipping is a could cause problems or not >> into where are they where is the chipping into the nuclear ligament.

[00:51:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:12]>> I think it depends. Yeah. But where is it going into it?

[00:51:15]>> Go straight in. They put them in.

[00:51:17]>> But which location?

[00:51:18]>> It's usually on the left side just near a >> Yeah. So, um, what would it cause a would it cause a a weakness in that area of AP9?

[00:51:32]>> Um, >> yeah, I think that's the question. Would it be could it be damaging?

[00:51:36]>> Um, I don't So, it's it's probably just below the where the tension is crossing over my I would think it'd be too thick to be putting it in the nuclear ligament.

[00:51:49]>> Yeah.

[00:51:49]>> They put it in it.

[00:51:50]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:52]>> Yeah. I think there there's possibly you could have a little bit of scar tissue formation. I I think it's probably negligible to to sort of sternal trauma and cervical sort of spinal trauma in terms of future issues. So, um I know it is it's a little bit invasive, but I I don't I'm not sure I would weight it that heavily in terms of other things we seeing from sort of trauma in the the sort of front of the thoracic um cavity and into the lower spine, cervical spine.

[00:52:25]>> Thank you for that. Because the horse loses the horse loses its tension throughout the body >> when when there's a lot of t when when the nuclear ligament gives way from too much force in the lower part of the neck. Um there's a whole shift in the tension throughout the body.

[00:52:46]>> Then there was a question whether we could clarify the conversation we had about breeding with the right mare. So I think we made a an observation about the fact that some of the styling choices now, you know, to to breed for certain types of of sport horses could be part of the reason why we see birth trauma.

[00:53:06]Yeah. I mean, I've I'm no real expert in choosing mares and stallions, but from a physical point of view, matching the right size stallion to the right size may mare. Looking at the mare's pelvic pelvis width, um I see it in the warm bloods quite a lot. These sort of smaller mares then birthing really big foss um which is obvious obviously leads to obvious obvious issues. So some of the sport horses are just breeding purely on performance that may with that stallion and not taking any of the sort of physiology or the physical aspects into account and I just think that adds to the sort of occurrence of birthing trauma because sometimes it's not really thought of.

[00:53:56]>> No, I think that's the same as us people with our hips.

[00:54:00]>> Absolutely. I mean, I think it's a really interesting point what we also consider whether feeding could could sort of feed into this. So, you know, we're getting better and better at, you know, feeding our horses more and more.

[00:54:14]And yeah, would they possibly also have bigger and bigger?

[00:54:21]>> Yeah. But I just think we have to, you know, look at Ian's work. There's some great research there. there's some some numbers that are a bit shocking that we do have to notice that fo in the first two weeks of his life what is happening and I think I just feel that they naturally have a lot to tell us um through these simple movements of self-grooming mutual grooming and self-pes and if we watch where they're strategically going it's incredible to watch it really is and the little things the role pulling how they get up. Um, yeah, I just think if you look at it, I'm excited to hear back from anybody in this group. They've gone out and they do a three to six week study and watch where that horse is selfgrooms, where he applies the dirt when he rolls. Can he roll over? Does he keep reapplying it?

[00:55:23]Is he trying to adjust something in his chest? Is he trying to adjust some things with when he gets up? Does he rub his turn? You know, there's so much that we can watch. It's like it's like, wow.

[00:55:39]You don't need a fancy app and you don't need, you know, you can you can naturally see it.

[00:55:46]>> Yeah. I mean, that's really fascinating.

[00:55:49]Nadine, you've got your hand up as well, but I'm I'm I want to round back out and look at my horses now, actually. Yeah.

[00:55:56]So my question is because you said about the I can understand when with selfgrooming when a horse knows where it needs to go but with mutual grooming how does the other horse know >> well so it's the electric magnetic field um so nowadays we know about the po electric properties of the collagen matrix and that that's putting out the you know the the electric electromagnetic field and how it's vibrating. So that horse next door in a stable that it can't touch, that horse knows exactly what that other horse how it's vibrating and where it's not right. Um but yeah, so nowadays the term is po electric properties and electric magnetic field.

[00:56:47]the other the horses interpret it through >> um well when they're mutual grooming it's through their mouth, their muzzle, their whiskers, their breathing >> um movements, rhythms. In the mutual grooming, there's a stronger partner. Um he'll usually is dictating what's going on in the mutual grooming. So, same thing going on. The mom knows exactly what's going on with that mare with a fall. I mean, >> yeah, that's that is fascinating. Um and in fact we are we're also fascinated. I think some of you would like to learn more. So we had another question here from Ashley saying where can we learn more about um the concertina theory and the treatments um and uh yeah so just basically for people to get carry on with their research carry on with their with their learning after tonight's webinar. Yeah, I think the you know to go and look at um the the YouTube that I mentioned about Ian's work that's >> asking about your work >> and then for my work we can share a PDF where you can put together a little journal or a diary and that's what my student >> oh there's Patreon as well um but just just the mutual grooming and um or mapping the self-grooming and the self-pus you'll have a lot of fun with that It's but for us to learn more about my work and um um some she socials my students are saying but um the Patreon there's a I've got a little book written there about um the foundations of sami work my samshi technique and that has a lot of information about self-grooming self-pus Um, yeah, just natural horse well-being. And fantastic.

[00:58:41]>> I've learned a lot about natural horse well-being from the third floor, the stable, three floors up in the middle of a city because we've been so removed from nature that I've actually forced me to really see the nature of the horse.

[00:59:00]That's interesting. Yeah. So, are we going to be able to send some stuff out to our webinar attendees, you know, some links maybe and some, as you mentioned, PDFs? That would be brilliant.

[00:59:10]>> Yeah, >> because I think people get the the observation sheet out. I'll get that finished tomorrow.

[00:59:17]>> That's brilliant. Well, thank you so much. Um, and gosh, I can't believe it.

[00:59:22]The hour is over.

[00:59:24]In fact, we're about to run slightly over, but um I'm sure everybody will forgive us because it has been fascinating and a really good discussion.

[00:59:34]>> Um so everybody, if you have any further questions that you would like to pose, just email us. Um I see this very much as an ongoing conversation between us because I think we all got to go and do some observing now and and I think that's um yeah, I mean I find that very exciting. I find that really inspiring and >> Ava, can I say something?

[00:59:56]>> Of course.

[00:59:57]>> Next time when we going to talk about this subject, I would like to have it more on a breeders perspective. This presentation was more especially for nonnative English speaking people. It was more a lecture for fetss than for breeders who have to deal with their mare and their fall during birth after the first day. I think for our 140,000 breeders, that's much more interesting than all those difficult words for fetss.

[01:00:31]>> Thank you.

[01:00:32]>> So, we now need to bring it um down to earth >> and we don't it's not down to earth.

[01:00:39]It's for our breathers.

[01:00:41]>> Yes.

[01:00:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:43]>> And I think that's that's where >> and there's nothing wrong with this presentation.

[01:00:48]Listen well. It it was perfect and we heard you in in South Africa as well bad. So that that that that that's nothing but we have to think about our breeders how have they deal who how do they have to deal with their mars and their falls the first day the first week and so on where do they have to take care of and so on and so on that's for our breed is very very very important >> and next time we should talk about this >> okay if I can say anything on that is I would really like to hear back from the breeders the mayor's reactions um in those first two weeks. If now that I've mentioned the collagen matrix, the concertina, the points, the muscle hubs, the anchor points, where where is the mayor going most often? Um >> is is is there a relationship between Ian's work and what the mayor how the mayor looks after the f in the first two weeks? Can we draw some kind of connection between his he's done massive research on rib trauma and it's there in a and it's and he's saying it's it's there in a high percentage of birth um birthing issues. So my question is that if people can take a little bit of my the work that I've just said about the muscle hubs and the anchor points, where is that mayor going? Can we learn from her more about the foing and how we can support the fo afterwards?

[01:02:28]I would love to hear that back from the breeders because >> if we can combine that information we might learn something new or a new way to help. So it's basically we need to observe more to to learn more and to make the connections >> is what and if my work that if my work that that Sarah and I have done to find these muscle hubs and anchor points and mentioning the inner hub tension lines if you if that can now be put into you into your hands and say okay now breeders please watch the mares with this lens on what can we learn? So, I think what I'm hearing loud and clear and it's also coming through in the chat is that we see this as a start of an ongoing conversation and that we would like to do some follow-up webinars and maybe share some more observations as well. So, I think that would be a really good thing. So, you have I think you we at the start here of something >> and I think it's also just an awareness.

[01:03:33]So um when you're foing or you are the person foing and you're pulling a fo that you are aware that you are pulling on those first five thoracic vertebra when you are pulling those legs and and I've pulled many foss myself not knowing what I know now that you just kind of get this want to get the f out and then there's not much awareness as to how or the type of tension that you're pulling, you know, jerking versus slow. And the other thing uh some I know protocol and some studs is that all fs are assisted out.

[01:04:16]So I don't I think that's one of the most natural things that we can do. Um and if it is not life-threatening to the mare or fo, they should for the most part be left. You know that fo might need time for its body to adjust to come through the birthing canal, but the person foing is in a rush and they want the fo out and standing and drinking. So it gets assisted out really quickly. So I think also there's just that awareness of from a different perspective when the mares are falling.

[01:04:46]>> Yeah. Interesting.

[01:04:47]>> And then and so like and watching like a as the skulls closing and how much does the mom interact there and if I can at least mention and say okay anchor point.9 is a is a key point to the balance of the hind quarter. If we see the mayor is going to anchor point. If now even if I've only made three people interested and it's three more people that are going to see is that mare going to that section of the neck is the full going to that section with its hind foot. Is he trying to activate it? So we might learn that yes he did have trauma during birth and this is how he's adjusting it. But if we can do more to help him adjust it, then he's going to balance his neck and four quarter better and hopefully then have better for looks.

[01:05:40]>> Great. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is something for us to take away right now.

[01:05:45]>> The other thing to take away is guys, we need to start observing. We're going to send you the PDFs of the sheets that you can use for your observations. Um, and then maybe what we should do next is actually organize a webinar for us all to share and that could be really >> that'd be great. I'll I'll get you those sheets and then um I'll also be able to provide a journal that we've made um and that has places where you can observe how they roll etc. Um great >> because that's that tells you a lot about how they're adjusting their own tension.

[01:06:20]>> Well, thank you so very much. Thank you also to um um to Andre um you know my fellow board member who was here tonight. Of course a big thank you to Nadine um as always for your hard work Nadine in making these things happen and in keeping us all going and organized and thank you so much to Robin and Beth.

[01:06:39]What a fantastic talk and what a great discussion as well. A big thank you to everyone who's been here tonight, who has contributed with their questions and who has listened and who is hopefully going to go out and do some fantastic work now observing their mess and falls.

[01:06:55]>> Thank you so much guys.

[01:06:57]>> Thank you everybody. Thank you. Bye.

[01:06:59]Bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.