AITV Special Interview with Asif Durrani

Added: 2026-05-24

[00:00:00][music] [music] >> Let's talk about Afghanistan and Pakistan. Right now, Pakistan has a good relationship with many countries in the region, as you mentioned, Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, even superpowers like United States, but Pakistan has a problem with Taliban in Afghanistan, Pakistan's neighbor.

[00:00:39]So, it seems that this problem is very serious.

[00:00:46]I will take it as an irritant to tell you frankly. Evan, we have a problem of TTP, and that's the issue with the Afghan Taliban.

[00:00:57]And Afghan Taliban, they are invoking the Pashtunwali code.

[00:01:03]I know uh Pashtun code of uh quote unquote honor that they are giving shelter to TTP as guests.

[00:01:15]But I dispute that because in Pashtunwali, uh you cannot give shelter to a murderer or to a thief, uh which they are violating. But in any case, this is what to the Afghan Taliban have uh decided for themselves. But to by and large, I think Pakistan as a state uh has been tackling the TTP uh within our own borders. It's not a problem. We are tackling with that. But our complaint starts and our concerns begin when those TTP cadres, they uh cross over to from our one side to Pakistan.

[00:01:59]>> So, you you say you say that the problem is only with TTP, not with Afghan Taliban. For instance, Pakistan, Islamabad, doesn't have any problem with Mullah Hibatullah or Sirajuddin, Mullah Yaqoob, and other Taliban leaders.

[00:02:14]>> Why why should we have a problem? Because they are ruling the country.

[00:02:20]Mhm. So, how who am I to have an objection?

[00:02:24]Uh, they signed an agreement with the Americans and their coalition partners in Doha.

[00:02:31]And they came and they are occupying the country.

[00:02:36]And the other leaders, they left before the deadline.

[00:02:42]So, why should I have a problem? Well, Pakistan has bombarded many cities in Afghanistan, many places in Afghanistan in the past few months.

[00:02:53]That seems that Pakistan has a problem with the Taliban.

[00:02:58]>> Well, we we hit the TTP, uh, centers where they were.

[00:03:05]Yes, that has been because, uh, our persuasion perhaps failed to convince the Taliban.

[00:03:15]But it did not work.

[00:03:17]No, it it has worked. It has worked.

[00:03:20]How?

[00:03:20]>> The TTP, uh, their attacks have come down.

[00:03:27]Since they the bombarded the bombardment stopped.

[00:03:29]>> Since our action is just not bombardment. Don't romanticize or dramatize it. It was just small strikes, not bombardment.

[00:03:39]Uh, let me correct you on that.

[00:03:41]>> Yeah, but it was the you you you you you you remember that a hospital, uh, in Kabul got attacked and many people got killed. And and and as you may know many Afghans reacted on that that they were angry and this >> Well, I think uh I would ask you a counter question.

[00:04:03]If a hospital was bombarded so where was the debris? Because there was only fire in the hospital building.

[00:04:13]Not the destruction.

[00:04:16]So if it was bombarded so the building should have collapsed.

[00:04:21]You don't find any collapse of the building.

[00:04:24]It was attacked to uh that Camp Phoenix.

[00:04:29]Which was uh an ammunition dump.

[00:04:35]And to which no one has raised any questions.

[00:04:39]And I would also like to know if they claim that all 400 people were killed please show us the photographs. They have been showing photographs of two or three children.

[00:04:50]Why didn't they show the photographs of 400 people? Well, there were photos people who got buried No, but listen, this was a big propaganda thing for the for anyone. I forgot about and more than I'm not justifying those who were killed and if those were innocent that government should regret.

[00:05:14]You know, that's I'm not justifying but the issue is I'm raising a question.

[00:05:18]Please, you as a journalist investigate that why destruction has not taken place in that hospital.

[00:05:27]Only if you find only the fire.

[00:05:30]Otherwise the roof should have collapsed because of the bombardment. If if I go by your terminology had hidden some ammunitions over there.

[00:05:42]Not in the hospital.

[00:05:44]But the hospital it was Camp Phoenix.

[00:05:47]You know about that. Yes, so but many people >> about that. Yes. And it is in the vicinity. Is it correct? Yeah. My my my question is Let me ask you this. My question is that in that camp, the spot that got attacked. So, but no matter what, so many people got killed. At least there are pictures and people witnesses.

[00:06:09]So, is it okay for Pakistan government to attack uh Taliban's ammunitions or TTP's even if Afghan civilians get killed? Is it justifiable?

[00:06:23]>> Well, it is the wrong question. I'm sorry.

[00:06:27]This is not a question. It's a question if there is a ammunition dump, what an hospital was doing there?

[00:06:34]Please answer me.

[00:06:36]What is the justification of having a hospital in the vicinity of an ammunition dump?

[00:06:46]So, it's disputed as far So, here I'm what I'm I'm not justifying that.

[00:06:51]For me, I have all the sympathies if innocent people were killed. Those are the collateral damage. It has happened everywhere.

[00:07:00]You know, these Taliban have been, you know, cutting the heads and playing football with them.

[00:07:05]What do you call that?

[00:07:09]These TTP guys supported by the one Taliban. They have been playing, you know, this uh savagery uh by, you know, chopping off the heads and playing football.

[00:07:23]So, as you mentioned What what I'm trying to say is that it is just not that hospital.

[00:07:33]There are many other collateral damages also. Yeah. So, what my my point is this.

[00:07:40]What should the Taliban regime do? Mhm.

[00:07:44]So, my point is that uh Taliban Afghan Taliban has their own narratives.

[00:07:50]Pakistan government put out statement, uh different narrative. So, you are not working for the government uh right now, but you were a former official of Pakistan government. My point is that, you know, uh how uh what is the strategy of Pakistan to kill and attack TTPs in Afghanistan? Uh in which circumstances that is justifiable? Because that hospital or that camp uh that was attacked, some people got killed. Uh people who were I think were uh addicted were keep living there somehow. Uh uh so, it's a long story. But some some innocent people got killed. Uh that's at least Some uh one friends have been telling me that it was done by the Taliban regime in order to get rid of those uh addicted people. Do you believe that? No, some uh have uh have told me. It's not What's your own opinion?

[00:08:46]>> The question is this is like one thing you have raised. I have raised a question that where's the destruction?

[00:08:53]Why only fire?

[00:08:56]Why only fire? Why not the building collapse? Because when you bomb, you have seen what has happened in a bombed building. Mhm. Mhm. So, you you heard that from your friends, but you don't believe that your own yourself. No, this is a question. I have heard many things. Mhm.

[00:09:12]Mhm. One of the which I told you, like you are telling me.

[00:09:16]Sure. So, to to whom should we believe? Okay. So, let's >> So, it calls for neutral investigation. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:09:26]A journalist like you should be investigating the matters. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:09:31]And come up with the truth. Mhm. What has happened? Well, the truth is that some innocent people got killed. That is I fully agree, but it calls for invest >> And it was Pakistan's as air strike.

[00:09:43]This is what you are saying.

[00:09:45]Well, it was not air strike. This is what I but my Afghan friends are saying that that was done by the Taliban.

[00:09:51]Or the attack? Yeah, the hospital. But you say you had just have heard from other people. You don't believe in that.

[00:09:56]To get rid of the addicts. Mhm.

[00:10:00]No.

[00:10:01]I'm saying there are many you can say views about this attack, about this killing of the innocents.

[00:10:10]All right. Let's talk about the bigger picture. So, well, TTP as you mentioned is a big problem.

[00:10:16]If Well, it is a problem for or you I think you you used the word there is a tension. Irritant.

[00:10:23]>> Yeah. So, so in a bigger picture uh do you think that Pakistan can attack TTP if they don't uh uh you know, if they don't stop attacking Pakistan, if Afghan Taliban don't stop supporting them. So, how far Pakistani government in your personal opinion would go in terms of you know, uh in the eliminating I think as far as TTP is concerned, it is not a formal war with the TTP. Mhm.

[00:11:03]Yeah, they apply guerrilla tactics, so the government applies its own ways to tackle them and neutralize them.

[00:11:12]So, as far as TTP is concerned.

[00:11:16]So, this is what we're doing.

[00:11:19]So, Pakistan is not uh uh aiming regime change in Afghanistan.

[00:11:27]Why should we do that?

[00:11:29]It is up to the Afghan people to do that.

[00:11:33]I think uh Pakistan should not be in the business of regime change. Well, many Pakistani officials have indicated that, you know, the entire uh current government of Afghanistan Afghan Taliban are not uh uh regime or people who uh uh who who who should run Afghanistan because uh it's just like an indications that, you know, Pakistan uh uh is is aiming for something bigger than that.

[00:11:59]>> Who said that? Foreign Ministry of Pakistan. They said uh that, you know, Afghanistan is deserve better than Taliban.

[00:12:07]I don't think so. Uh I don't think so.

[00:12:10]I have >> Uh but having said that, I can see that right now the Afghan Taliban are not behaving as a government.

[00:12:19]They are behaving they are still in the militancy mold.

[00:12:23]Yes, this is my personal view. So, I think it's better they should start behaving like a government and be responsible and do not allow the Afghan's side to be used by uh undesirable elements.

[00:12:37]So, this is my personal view, but uh the the regime change I don't think that Pakistan would be uh going for that and it should not be and in fact in the past whatever involvement we had, uh it had given Pakistan bitter results.

[00:12:55]So, it's better to leave the Afghans to their own devices. They should chalk out their own course of action and uh we may be ready to assist Afghanistan in whatever way, whether it is humanitarian assistance in health or education. So, you you mean that Pakistan wants some reform in Afghanistan. And and and No, we don't want >> Having tie with TTP is part of it. We only want to not allow not to allow TTP to use a one territory and their leadership should be controlled. Mhm.

[00:13:31]You know, they are They can get controlled.

[00:13:33]>> living in Afghanistan and hatching conspiracies.

[00:13:37]And TTP guys, they are coming and on that in the TTP formations and there are Afghan nationals also.

[00:13:47]So, that becomes more serious. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:13:49]So, well, it's been going on for a long time and still the You said that, you know, you the the attacks got lesser and lesser, but still the problem has not been solved. So, do you think it it it will be solved perhaps in a short period of time? Well, I'm not giving any time to this.

[00:14:10]But, I think uh state of Pakistan is strong and it can tackle this issue.

[00:14:16]Uh given its own priorities.

[00:14:21]And hopefully, we will control it.

[00:14:24]Pakistan Pakistani government is is in touch with the uh Taliban opposition groups?

[00:14:32]Well, Afghans, we have in touch with all of us.

[00:14:36]And this is natural. This is not something a particular thing or a particular policy.

[00:14:43]But, I think uh uh as Afghans, if they come into contact, that is there. But, uh if you mean that we will be looking for alternatives to the Taliban, uh I'm not sure. You're not sure. So, do do you see that a possibility? I'm not sure.

[00:15:03]I mean, I don't But, personally, I would say leave the Afghans to their own devices.

[00:15:08]And it is up to It should be up to the Afghans to bring in unity. Mhm. And if they want to change the Afghan uh want to bring a change in Afghanistan, so it should be done by them. Mhm. Rather than through the help of uh A, B, or C country. I very well known that you know Pakistan supported Afghan Taliban in the past. It's not it's a fact Pakistani officials >> clarify on that how we support When India >> Defense minister of Pakistan said we made a mistake. Let let me clarify how Pakistan supported the Taliban.

[00:15:44]On Al-Qaeda we gave full support to the American-led coalition. Whether I said or later on NATO.

[00:15:54]But when it came to Taliban since India challenged us on Afghan soil from Karzai government to Ashraf Ghani's and they had a free hand and they challenged us on Afghan soil, Indians.

[00:16:09]We accepted that challenge. Therefore therefore for tactical reasons we were supporting the Taliban.

[00:16:19]To defeat the Indian designs.

[00:16:23]You know, the rest any commentary that would be a commentary.

[00:16:28]But what I'm telling you and I know for sure I've seen myself that how Indians were going out money and how they the people coming out from the Indian Embassy were arrested but again released.

[00:16:46]So I don't want to and spill the beans on that.

[00:16:51]But yes, we were supporting only for that purpose. Not that to bring them to power. No.

[00:16:58]That was done by them and then don't forget that even American cigar reports were clear that even in 2006 and 7 and 8 that they were saying that ones these Taliban are controlling 50 to 60% of the territory in the rural areas.

[00:17:14]I'm not saying that.

[00:17:16]Please see the cigar reports.

[00:17:18]So here I mean dumping the entire blame on Pakistan is unfair.

[00:17:25]You know, unless and it has become a fashion, you know, a mindset. They were Pakistan there because Pakistan has supported the Mujahideen.

[00:17:35]But we burned our fingers.

[00:17:37]If Khawaja Asif is saying that we committed a mistake, then he is saying now. I have been saying earlier also that you leave the ones to their own devices.

[00:17:49]Let them bring in a stable government in their country, a stable [clears throat] system in their own country without anyone's help, assistance.

[00:18:02]This is what I want to >> Yeah. So Ambassador Durrani, uh you mentioned, you know, that India was one of the main reason that you your government supported Afghan Taliban. But here is the thing.

[00:18:14]So many writers and and analysts and analysts and historians pointed out that uh Pakistan historically uh supported Afghan Taliban because Islamabad was afraid of a rising Pashtun nationalism in Afghanistan.

[00:18:32]And and and Duran and and Duran and the historical disputes over Duran and and and so on.

[00:18:40]>> I don't know who those analysts are.

[00:18:42]Mhm. Uh I wish they I can sit with them.

[00:18:46]Only then I can say. Otherwise, Duran is you know, it's a mindset. It's It's not an issue. It's an internationally recognized border.

[00:18:56]And and none of the one governments ever raised this issue formally with Pakistan. Duran? Yes.

[00:19:05]So But they didn't accept officially either. No, this is not the question.

[00:19:10]That's not my concern.

[00:19:12]They don't cross an inch of the border.

[00:19:17]And we don't violate that an inch.

[00:19:21]That's the border. That's the sanctity of the border.

[00:19:26]And they why don't they challenge it in the international court of justice?

[00:19:34]Why don't they go and have an arbitrator that well this is uh uh occupied by Pakistan.

[00:19:40]It's an internationally recognized border. It's not my headache. If they have this mindset to Soviet.

[00:19:48]So from Pakistan's point of view that is not even an issue. No.

[00:19:54]How about Pakistani Pashtuns? You are I'm a Pashtun myself and 99.99% Pashtuns uh love Pakistan.

[00:20:07]And they don't look towards Afghanistan for any guidance. It is the other way around.

[00:20:15]So it's not it's a non-issue. Explain that. How do you know that? Where that statistics statistics comes from?

[00:20:22]>> So so where did you this so-called Pashtunistan come from?

[00:20:28]There's none.

[00:20:32]So you [snorts] you say that Pakistani Pashtuns don't have any problem uh with Durand that's over. They are happy to live here, uh be Pakistani, and they do not need to look uh for a bigger Afghanistan or something like that.

[00:20:51]>> I don't think so. I don't think so. But uh at common ethnicity itself is uh a bond, you know.

[00:20:59]Uh for me uh going to Afghanistan, I don't feel alienated. I can converse in Pashto or in Dari. Of course, my Dari is weak, but I do. So, I you know, align myself. So, there's no problem with me.

[00:21:16]But, for that that I have to be told no, this is your border comes up to attack.

[00:21:21]Nonsense. This is No one agrees to that.

[00:21:25]And Pashtuns are living in their own areas in Pakistan.

[00:21:29]They are the loyal citizens, and then they have sacrificed for Pakistan. They have a sense of belonging in Pakistan.

[00:21:36]How about Pashtuns in Afghanistan? That is your headache.

[00:21:39]>> they they they have a That is your headache. You know how about them?

[00:21:43]How they deal with that, and how you guys deal with them?

[00:21:47]That is That's what I'm trying to emphasize that leave the Afghans to their own devices to settle their disputes. One, secondly, establish their political system, and bring about stability in that country.

[00:22:02]Well, so it cannot stay there. If if Pashtuns in Afghanistan think that that's a problem, well, that problem cannot stay there. So, if they don't recognize that as a international border, as you say it's over, they don't they don't think so. So, I think that problem doesn't stay there. Somehow it's going to be an issue for you as well. I don't think so.

[00:22:29]No, I don't think so. Well, the the Taliban in Afghanistan don't recognize border as an international border.

[00:22:38]>> care.

[00:22:39]Mhm.

[00:22:40]I don't care.

[00:22:43]So, why do you think, in your personal opinion, that Pashtuns on the other side of the border have problem with this?

[00:22:52]I don't know. It's a mindset.

[00:22:55]It's a mindset. Explain that. Why >> No, this is what I consider as a mindset. Otherwise, I mean, why then they should try and attack the border?

[00:23:07]Violated.

[00:23:10]Mhm. So, you >> Why don't you they do that?

[00:23:13]Mhm.

[00:23:14]Mhm.

[00:23:16]So, from your personal opinion that that issue uh the the the way that explained that it's it's not They they they they said it's it was imposed on them. It's not It has a period of time. It's over, expired, and it's not recognizable.

[00:23:33]>> think so. No. There is no >> Explain that. You know >> There is no expiry of a during agreement. Those who say there was 100 years, they have not read the agreement.

[00:23:44]So, that's And subsequently, it has been endorsed by subsequent Awami regimes. And then in the United Nations, it is an international border. Please raise this issue in the UN.

[00:23:56]Why don't you they raise that?

[00:23:58]So, explain the historical perspective of this of your understanding. Who >> I don't think so. I mean, I can go on for hours.

[00:24:08]>> Mhm. But briefly, I can tell you it is an internationally recognized border.

[00:24:14]Mhm. Period. Mhm.

[00:24:18]Was it >> If you can dispute that, please let me know. If you dispute that on what basis?

[00:24:23]>> Mhm. Mhm. It's not that a few Awamis they say it. And they say it verbally.

[00:24:30]They don't convey to me to the government of Pakistan in writing. Mhm.

[00:24:39]So, if there is a dispute so, there has to be a mechanism to resolve it.

[00:24:44]Yes? Do we agree? Mhm.

[00:24:47]So, they have not come up with this. We only hear in the newspapers in someone's interviews.

[00:24:54]That's it. Mhm. Yes, sir.

[00:24:57]As a a proud uh Pakistani uh Pashtun, uh historically and and emotionally, do you think that uh affected somehow the Pashtun society?

[00:25:10]Well, this political instability in Afghanistan has affected the entire Afghanistan.

[00:25:19]Irrespective whether they are Pashtuns or they are Hazaras, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkoman, Pashai, who are there.

[00:25:28]Or Baruch.

[00:25:29]Yeah. Mhm.

[00:25:31]So, I'm talking Afghanistan as a whole.

[00:25:37]So, many people think in Afghanistan, as long as I understand, that uh Pakistan change its strategy and want uh want to get rid of Afghan Taliban. And even some oppositions group, they indicated that they are going to be a partner with Islamabad to make some changes in Afghanistan. I would like to have your understanding and your perspective on that.

[00:26:09]I don't know who they are they are suggesting. My my suggestion to them would be forget about Islamabad.

[00:26:17]Please put your house in order.

[00:26:20]Bring in stability in your ranks.

[00:26:23]And bring the change from within Afghanistan.

[00:26:27]Rather than banking on someone else.

[00:26:30]So, I think this would be my advice.

[00:26:33]And my advice to the government of Pakistan would be that leave the ones to their own devices.

[00:26:41]Well, it's not as simple as you say, uh Mr. Ambassador. I mean, it is very complicated, as you know much better than me and many other people. It's not as simple as that. Okay, you are Afghans living Afghanistan make a decision for yourself with many countries involved.

[00:26:57]Afghanistan historically got affected by the region by Pakistan, Iran, other countries, United States. It's not that I mean diplomatically, yes, but you know, in reality it's quite different.

[00:27:09]Of course, whatever Pakistan does or would do affects Afghanistan's Afghanistan's future. What Iran does I think my my question is that, you know, Pakistan has a huge role in here.

[00:27:22]Well, thank you very much for assigning this role to Pakistan.

[00:27:26]I'm not saying that. Pakistan has been doing itself.

[00:27:28]>> no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:27:33]which can satisfy you.

[00:27:35]So, I will read that answer for you.

[00:27:37]What do you want me to say? Mhm. I have told you.

[00:27:41]I've given you my opinion.

[00:27:44]But if you are not satisfied, I'll be ready to read that answer which you will give. I think the Afghan Taliban asked Iran to to to negotiate or to help solve this problem.

[00:27:59]And since Pakistan has a good relationship with Tehran, do you think these kind of approaches would work?

[00:28:06]Well, we had recently we had mediation from China. We welcome that.

[00:28:14]With Iran, we already have close cooperation on Afghan issue.

[00:28:21]So, I think there shouldn't be any problem for Pakistan if anything that can lead to peace and stability.

[00:28:31]I think Pakistani side would welcome that.

[00:28:34]Thank you so very much. Appreciate.

[00:28:36]Thanks. Thank you.

[00:28:38]>> [music] [music] >> Mhm.