Inside the Mind of Civil War Artist Mark Maritato | Gettysburg, Art & History

[00:00:03]You can still hear them. The distant drums of war. Echoes from a time when brother fought brother and the fate of a nation hung by a thread. This is the Distant Drums podcast. History you can march to.

[00:00:20]>> Welcome to the Distant Drums podcast.

[00:00:22]I'm glad you found us. We're continuing our march through history covering the American Civil War one story at a time.

[00:00:28]and I am pretty excited about tonight's guest. He is truly bringing the battlefields of the American Revolution and American Civil War to life, one brushstroke at a time. So, Andrew, I'll go ahead and throw it to you. We can properly introduce our guest and get to know him a little bit better, learn about his work and what all goes into it.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah. Tonight, we're honored to have Mark Meer Maritado on. He's a military historical artist and as James mentioned, covers some of the major wars in American military history. Mark, why don't you tell us first off what got you started painting battle scenes and soldiers and such?

[00:01:04]>> Well, it goes all the way back to I've been drawing since I was a kid. When I was a kid growing up, I I um started drawing animals, dinosaurs, sharks, and then for a while I got into the actual story of the Titanic for a while. So, I did drawings of that for a little while.

[00:01:21]And then um there was a period after my up to my adolescence where I kind of stopped drawing for a little bit and then I was kind of you know I I'm from a single parent household so I started getting into a little trouble in my teenage years and uh luckily I had some relatives that stepped in and said hey you know you got to straighten your life out and kind of you know get on track and I started um getting back into art again and that kind of really you know when I really think about it kind of really saved my life. Um, but it really doing military historical art. I started by it really the inspiration came by watching the movie Glory when I was in high school. You know, we had HBO and uh the movie Glory came on in 19 I think it was 89 or 90 I think it was. Was it 89?

[00:02:07]I forget which it was. I was in high school at that time.

[00:02:12]>> And the first battle scene just totally captured me. like I was just like I couldn't believe that these guys were just walking up to each other like you know in a formation and then blasting each other away and um the scene where um you see all the Confederate musketss just go off all at once while the while the Union line is marching up that that just totally like I was like oh my god what is this? Um, so then after that, I started looking into um Civil War books in in my high school library and I found the um I found the uh the the the Centennial uh Civil War book that everybody knows, not the Centennial um >> American Heritage, >> the the Americ Thank you. The American Heritage uh book that had all the really cool illustrated battle maps of all the battles and stuff and that got me into it a little bit more. And then I I found a book called Antidum, the photographic legacy of America, America's Bloodiest Day by William Frazo. Opened up that book and I started seeing all the photos of Carnage from Antidum because the first battle in glory was Antidum. So when I found that book, I was like, "Oh, cool. This is about the battle of Antidum. I'll read this book." So I I looked at him and that book totally hooked me. And then right around the time that same time is when Ken Burns's Civil War series came out and then I started watching that and that just got me into it. And all all throughout this period I started doing drawings in high school and some paintings of of you know Civil War battles. They were very very compared to what what it is what I what I can do now. They were kind of very crude and childlike, but you know, I was just drawing basically from what I could see from the books and stuff. So, uh, but yeah, that really inspired me. And then I then and then after high school, I I was able to, um, you know, I was able to get into Pratt Institute in Brooklyn. Uh, was going to be an art teacher and I decided to and I actually have a degree in education and, uh, spent four years there. four years there learning, you know, painting, drawing.

[00:04:27]Um, the great thing, the reason why I also, uh, chose a, uh, education major was because it gave you the most, um, studio credits so that you can actually pretty much almost major in something else. So I did communication design, illustration, and I also took a lot of painting and drawing courses. And I also took a very beneficial course on human anatomy that really really was great because we actually got to go to I think it was Columbia Medical School and we actually got to dissect real human cadaavvers. Oh wow.

[00:04:57]>> So So when you do that, you really learn what the what the how the human body is is created, how it's made up, and how it's put together. And that helped me to learn things like, you know, leg muscles, arm muscles, how they how they, you know, they intertwine with each other. When you see a a human cadaavver with no skin on it and just a muscle, it's it's really mind-blowing because you really see it. We really are amazing, you know, amazing creatures.

[00:05:23]The way we're put together by nature just it's really fascinating and it helped me out. It helped my art out a lot.

[00:05:31]That's fantastic because you don't really make that correlation about especially being an artist learning more about the human body because you're you're actually painting soldiers and you got to get them anatomically correct. Especially a Civil War soldier.

[00:05:43]They're much smaller than we are today.

[00:05:46]>> Yeah.

[00:05:47]>> Yeah.

[00:05:47]>> So, I would imagine that that helps kind of I guess create their likeness, I guess you can say.

[00:05:53]>> Yeah.

[00:05:54]>> Now, when when did you start painting? I guess professionally, if that's the right word for it.

[00:06:00]>> I started painting battle scenes in college. My first battle scene was uh was the f um heart of Texas. I painted that while I was while I was actually at Pratt. I started becoming more and more interested in doing historical art back then. friend of mine and I who at the time was going to Pratt as well, Dan Nance. Him and I kind of found each other and he put he turned me on to artists like Don Trayani, Keith Roco and and uh Mort Consler and I you know I didn't I kind of knew about these guys but I didn't really really know about their art. Uh but he he really helped kind of turn me on to them and he was also interested in doing historical military art as well.

[00:06:39]And he's he's a really great artist. he became he he went on to become a really really uh really good historical artist and um anyway [clears throat] uh so that's when I painted my first like real battle scene and ever since I painted that I get even today I get a lot of I don't know how it really brings uh like takes me back sometimes because I still get a lot of really good compliments on that painting even though it was my first painting and there's things I look at and I'm like I could have could have done this a little bit better could have done that a little bit better. But um it, you know, I I still get a lot of really good um you know, people saying good things about it, which is nice.

[00:07:18]Then I just went from there. I just painted one scene after another. I just painted things that I kind of thought would be interesting and things having to do with the Civil War, you know, and and I just went from there. And back then it was a the digital printing processes haven't really hit yet or haven't really come on scene yet. So, I really wanted to kind of, you know, sell prints of my artwork just like all these other guys were doing. But at the time, I didn't, you know, you had to, there was a real big financial outlay to do that. And, um, so, um, you know, you had to spend, you know, couple thousand dollars just to have a print recreated in, I'm sorry, a painting recreated into a print.

[00:07:58]>> Oh, wow.

[00:07:58]>> And you have to print a certain number of them and you have to basically, you know, hold them until they they all sell. So, um, later on in the early 2000s, uh, around 2003, digital, you know, digital printing technology got to the point where I could actually buy my own little printer. And I was able to, you know, make really good good quality prints from home and sell them kind of like a one one at a time as I got orders for them. And I also had there was also, uh, companies that were offering, you know, like print, you know, three or four prints at a time instead of printing hundreds of them. So, I was able to do that and then I was able to off start offering my work as as as um as prints as signed limited edition prints and things like that. So, um so yeah, it's just basically just been doing that. And you know, I work a full-time job, too. I I I'm a designer.

[00:08:48]I I work uh I've been working for a company for over ever since I got out of college, I've been working for design companies and even today I work for a design company during the day and I do this art career on the side as a kind of like a supplemental thing for my kind of help support my family and stuff. So >> fantastic. I I wasn't aware that this wasn't your full-time job. So that that's that's neat to learn.

[00:09:10]>> I wish it was, but it it isn't cuz um you know this little war art is uh is a funny thing. like it it's popular but back in the 80s and 90s it was popular enough and you know a couple artists like Mor Conler and Don Frani got into it at the time and built a name for themselves where they were able to uh build a large clientele of people where they could release a print and then live off of the sales of the prints. But since then it's kind of died off. the the interest in the Civil War has kind of waned and >> you know um now what I do is I still sell prints of my work but most of what I'm I'm getting now are are commissions for original artwork which is great because I I can just you know I love painting anyway and uh you know I could just paint something for somebody that they want they they they're happy to get it and then um you know then I get a call from another guy and say hey can you paint this for me? So that's kind of nice, >> you know. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:10:14]>> Obviously dealing with any anything historical, especially artwork, a a great deal of research goes into what you do. Can you take us into your process from the research aspect and then, you know, from researching to canvas? What is that like for you?

[00:10:32]>> All right. Well, um I guess there's two ways to go about it. It depends on if it's a painting that I want to do for myself and offer later on as a print and an original piece or somebody's commissioning me, that's a little bit of a different process. Um, if it's a painting that I am interested in doing that I want that I want to do. Normally what I'll do, I'll I'll take a scene that I've read about from history. It could be from any battle like one of my favorite battles is obviously Gettysburg, Antidum, any any of the major Civil War battles. I'm I'm really, you know, I'm always researching and looking up stories and thinking about what could be great to paint. And then what I'll do is I'll start sketching.

[00:11:11]I'll start sketching in my sketchbook or start, you know, creating like thumbnail sketches of of an idea for painting of a layout of how would I depict this scene basically. And then if I like the idea and I want to pursue it even more, then I'll develop it into an even more finished drawing. Basically, I'll I'll develop it into a finished drawing like either in my sketchbook or a lot of what I've been doing lately is I'll actually uh take a sketch that I've done and then bring it into Adobe Photoshop and I'll actually sketch it out on the computer.

[00:11:43]The reason why you do that is because, you know, doing it by hand is great, but the problem is is like, okay, if if it takes a little bit longer to kind of manipulate things around and say like, okay, if I draw a guy slightly in the wrong position or put slightly in a position that I that I don't like. If I have it in a in a Photoshop, I could just take that guy, cut him out, and just move him over a little bit or take the guy's rifle and just move it up a little bit, you know? And um it really gives me a lot more versatility as far as like okay, how do I compose the scene? And uh you know, I just hand draw it basically as as I'm as though I'm drawing it in a sketchbook. I have a weight a waycom tablet here hooked up to my computer and I sketch it out. And then uh a lot of times what I'll actually start doing is I'll I'll just, you know, just make a really abstract type of composition. Okay, like I want a cannon here. I want a I want these guys coming in from this side. I don't want to flag here. And then uh but I also try to, you know, obviously what I'll do is I'll read about the scene and read about what happened and I'll try to place all the characters and uh elements in the scene as accurate as I accurately as I can uh within the scene so that um you know um so that everything looks good.

[00:12:57]Right now I'm actually working on a commission request for the Battle of Monmouth where uh we're we're focusing on the New Jersey Brigade. um >> uh New Jersey uh militia brigade, sorry.

[00:13:10]And where they were fighting on the battlefield and and you know, I'm not as wellversed on the Revolutionary War as I am on the Civil War. The Civil War has always been my real passion. So the the the um the Revolutionary War is more of a kind kind of a learning curve for me.

[00:13:23]But um when I'm I'm working with the park historian and the and the client who wants to commission the painting, uh working with him them about like, okay, how do we depict this scene? basically uh and um you know right now I'm working on compositional sketches. I I like to try to give people who commission me I like to try to give them three options for compositional scenes. So I say okay I could depict it like this I could depict it like this or I could depict it like this. You pick basically and then you know they pick it and then I'll develop it even more into a finished type drawing. And then once the drawing is uh approved by the the client, then I'll take it into a uh color comp sketch. Basically just giving it a basic color uh not wash, but kind of coloring it similar to what the finished painting would look like to give the client, okay, this is an idea of what I'm thinking of in terms of what it's, you know, what's going to look like when it's done. And then um that's basically it. And then once they approve that, uh, then I go ahead and start working on the final piece. Uh, sometimes uh, I may pose models for certain things when I need to. Uh, I don't always rely on models. A lot of the scenes that I do are actually generated directly from my head. I don't pose models that much as as much as I used to. Some I got to a point where I was posing models. What was happening was I find that when you pose a model sometimes you just get people that just, you know, even though you try to find models that look right, that look the part, a lot of people just look too they look too modernized. You know what I mean? And a lot of them end up looking just like reenactors. So when you take a digital photo of a model, sometimes their proportions can get a little can be a little off. Digital cameras have a very uh subtle way of distorting the figure uh through lenses and stuff that I I I notice it right away when I see it. It leg will be forcehortened a little weirdly or something like that. And unfortunately what happens is you sometimes you see that get >> get reproduced into the painting and I I try not to do that. So, so that's why I try to rely on, you know, actually drawing out the figure and and I rely on my um, you know, my past training in in anatomy to try to understand how the figure works. Now, you know, it there's nothing wrong with using a model. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that, you know, models can actually, you know, work out a lot of things for the artist and a lot of past great military artists have used models. It's just I prefer to work. Uh, I just and sometimes I just want to get to it and just start painting and like if somebody's shirt collar is looking, you know, I I kind of have an idea in my head of what how that shirt collar could look just because I painted clothes and and and figures and I've drawn figures all throughout my life. So, I kind of have an idea of how things should look. And if I don't, I will go look at something, but not I mean, I pose a model, but I might go and look at something and say, "Okay, how how is somebody's arm supposed to look when they're when they're firing?" kind of thing, you know.

[00:16:32]>> Yep.

[00:16:32]>> Um, so that's that's that. Um, as far as uniforms and equipment go, uh, I always try to rely on firsthand firsthand accounts, photos, especially with the Civil War stuff. There's a lot of there's tons and tons of photos of different units out there. And I'm lo I'm always searching for photos of of soldiers from certain regiments that I I like, especially Zuavs and Shassur.

[00:16:55]Those are my favorite uh soldiers to paint. I actually got I actually have some Hey, some of my soldier studies here that I've done. That's the uh 11th New York Fires W. Can you see that?

[00:17:10]>> Yeah. James' baby right there. One of them.

[00:17:13]>> This is the way they This is the way they would would appeared at the first battle of Bull Run. And they're they're very well documented to have worn this outfit, you know. And also not not all of them had the uh the firemen's uh belts. We found out through research that a lot of them had the SNY belts >> and uh you can find a lot of information from the C castle Pikney uh photos cuz a lot of those soldiers were captured at that run. Um here I show you another one here.

[00:17:44]Unfortunately, the people that are listening to the podcast are not going to be able to see this, but this is one I finished recently of uh an Agnos, the 13th Louisiana Infantry. They had a company of zuavs that were dressed up in the same style of uniform as the imperial zoos of France. So this is based on, you know, research that I've done. This is what this is my interpretation reconstruction of what their uniform would have looked like.

[00:18:10]They they fought at the Battle of Shiloh with this uniform on >> and actually this uniform is very very similar to a northern unit which is the 74th New York Infantry. They were known as the fifth Excelsiors. They have basically an identical uniform to this.

[00:18:25]>> Yeah. How could you not love those wobb units?

[00:18:28]>> They're my favorite to paint. They're so interesting. I find them >> really really interesting and they're they they make really really colorful uh pieces of artwork which I love, you know, I love doing. Um, but yeah, just just studying the regiments and studying like I have a whole list of regiments that I want to do um that I have not not been done by any artist um that you know they're kind of weird and quirky kind of like uh let's see if I can find it over here. Actually, I find um let me see if I can find this guy here. Hang on. Bear with me.

[00:19:02]>> Exclusive access, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:19:04]>> Hang on. Just bear with me.

[00:19:06]study did of a Philadelphia.

[00:19:10]>> There he is. Okay.

[00:19:14]So, these are these old studies, hook figure studies that I've done recently.

[00:19:19]Just have them in a box over here.

[00:19:22]So, this is kind of a a weird, not a weird, but like a a very obscure unit that probably nobody ever really knows about, but it's a Philadelphia German shoots and rifle unit. They were pre-war unit and their uniform is is derived from the Turners. It was a German shooting kind of like social club back around the 1850s just prior to the war.

[00:19:49]Now, what inspired this particular soldier study was um I found a drawing online at an auction. It was an online auction of two soldiers that were dressed like this, but it was a black and white drawing. And I thought, "Wow, that's a pretty interesting unit." It was it was it was it was labeled something like German shoots and regiment 1860 1861, something like that.

[00:20:13]So I was like, "Okay, yeah, I kind of took that image and I put it in my little uh I have a database of all different Civil War units." So I I was like, "One of these days I want to kind of explore that a little bit more." So when I started doing more figure studies, I I decided I'm going to do this this unit. So, I started looking around and I found some information about the Turners, the the uh the social the German social clubs that were around during the during the 1850s, like I mentioned before. Uh, and I based the first uh iteration of this particular drawing on that drawing that I found uh and then some of the research that I found on the Turners. Well, wouldn't you know it, I and I I was I'm always looking for new images, so I'm I'm always looking through old magazines and stuff. I found as I was researching in an old old issue of Military Images magazine from like the 1980s.

[00:21:11]>> Wow.

[00:21:11]>> A a group photo of these guys.

[00:21:14]>> Wow.

[00:21:14]>> Dressed in their uniforms. Because one of the things I wasn't sure about was their rifle. They had they had these really um really ornate rifles that they used for for target shooting. And um the one that was depicted in the drawing seemed a little bit more ornate than some of these some of these rifles are really really ornate, but the ones that I that I looked at that that appear in the drawing seemed a little bit more ornate than than usual. So I kind of c I kind of just found one that I thought would look right and I I used it, but it turned out I was wrong when I found this photo. So, I ended up having to change this illustration to to uh match the rifles that were in the photos, which is basically just this uh I don't if you see that shoots in rifle.

[00:21:57]>> So, but yeah, I mean, and you know, some of this is a little bit of guess work cuz uh because it's a rifle regiment, I have them trimmed in green. A lot of early war German units were dressed in uh gray and had green trim and some of them were rifle regiments. So, they would have green trim on their uniforms.

[00:22:13]So I used a green trim as their trim for the for the uniform and the hat and everything. So So yeah, that's basically a lot of what I do is I just try to research, you know, whatever unit I'm depicting as much as possible and try to get as much information about their uniforms and equipment and and uh issues of uniforms and equipment as possible that I can that I can gather. Yeah, for sure. Like you you just touched on, you know, you have the you went back to a magazine from the 80s. I'm sure it's a very tedious process, but you're you're you're nailing it.

[00:22:49]>> Yeah, I'm trying to. I mean, I'm I'm not 100% sure if I'm right on everything, but >> I try to get things as right as I could possibly get them. So, >> you know, someday if somebody, you know, corrects me, then I, you know, if I'm still alive, I'll correct it. If not, then I'll uh you know, I guess it'll be up to the next artist.

[00:23:10]>> Now, as far as terrain goes, do you ever go to going does going to the battlefield part of your process or do you use pictures from the battlefield for the terrain?

[00:23:19]>> Well, it depends. If it's Gettysburg, I you know, I have a lot of photos from there because I used to um go there a lot and I also used to reenact for 16 years with the for Brooklyn. So cool.

[00:23:29]>> So yeah, but yeah, going to the battlefield is actually very important, especially if you want to understand certain trigger movements as as you know. You know, you you could be standing you could be looking at a picture of a battlefield and not really get a full idea of the terrain and you could be walking certain places and all of a sudden you kind of like dip and disappear and you you don't really get to see what the soldiers see unless you're actually standing there and watching. So when I do get a chance to do that, I do try to get to the battlefields as much as I can. Uh if I can't, what I'll do is I'll try to study period maps. I'll study the um the uh the American uh battlefield trust maps.

[00:24:05]They're very good.

[00:24:06]>> Y >> and uh you know, they helped me out a lot with with certain uh things as far as troop movements and who was where when. That's the other thing you have to understand, too, is you know, when you're depicting a scene, you have to you have to kind of show what's going on around them. a painting behind me here that I I don't know if you've seen, but this is um unfortunately I'm sorry about the light is is washing it out. So, I'm not sure what you can see of this, but this is a painting I've been working on of the first Minnesota Gettysburg.

[00:24:36]Um I had to put this on the back burner because I had other commissions come in.

[00:24:40]So, this is like this is an example of one of the paintings that I came up with that I wanted to do for me and offer this eventually as a print when it's done. Yeah. So, so everybody's been I mean anybody's been to Gettysburg, they understand where the first Minnesota launched their charge from, but what did it look like during the time of the battle? It was just basically farmland.

[00:25:01]And you know, there's some there's some groves of trees and stuff in certain areas, but unless you study a map, even studying the maps from from that time, you really don't get a sense of >> of what was really there. So, what I have, I don't know if you can see it, but like back here, I have some soldiers from other brigades that are kind of retreating as these guys are going in.

[00:25:22]Uh, I have a couple zoas of the 114th Pennsylvania coming in on the left there because they they were part of the third core that got pushed back. And what I'm also trying to figure out is if I I think there was another New York regiment to their right, which I think might have been, don't quote me on this, might have been the 111th or the 122nd.

[00:25:40]I'm not 100% sure about that off off hand right now, but um I'm I might go back in and put in another unit back there. And I was kind of moving off to the left to try to, you know, I think they were trying to uh defend that part of the the field. And there's some guys that I started up on horseback there.

[00:25:59]That's going to be Hancock and his staff. So, he basically just rode up and told the the First Minnesota to get in there and and stop these guys. This this painting right now as you see it, it's kind of in its um halfway point. There's still obviously a lot of there's an officer in the front that I'm still working on that I just started. There's this guy down here. Nothing is anywhere near being completed yet. But you're starting to see how everything's taking form and everything. And the flag's a bit of a challenge, too, because the first Minnesota, as far as we know, through research, they've only they only had one flag at Gettysburg. There's been a couple of depictions of them of them in on paintings showing them with two flags, but from what I what I've been able to uncover, they only had really one national flag and it was torn up really really bad, but it had battle honors on it. So, there's only one photograph that I know of of the color bearer from Gettysburg that has the flag. He's he's holding it, but unfortunately the photo is so it's hard to see what's on the flag. And the flag is so torn up, you can't really see what the details are on it. You can just tell that it's an American national flag. But but yeah, that's an example of uh of a painting that's in progress that, you know, that's that's going to be eventually coming out that once I get done with some other mission work will be available eventually. Excuse me.

[00:27:19]>> Seeing that painting and knowing what happens to that regimen in just, you know, 5 10 minutes, it's it kind of it's just part of the uh it, like you said, you're bringing history to life here.

[00:27:30]>> Thank you. you can maybe see what these men may have looked like and what uniforms they were wearing, their national colors and and you know in five 10 minutes eight out of 10 of those eight eight out of every 10 are going to be on the ground essentially. So >> yeah, and I think I'm I'm pretty sure I'm the first artist to depict them this way where they're actually charging at the canvas at the viewer. Uh, so most most of the paintings you see them kind of charging to the left or to the right or kind of away from you.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah.

[00:28:02]>> But, um, when I was thinking about doing this painting, I was like, "All right, the first Minnesota's been done a lot by other artists. How do I make mine a little bit more unique?" And I'm like, "Okay, it's it's going to have to be shown in a different point of view than somebody's than somebody else who's ever done it." So that's why I chose Coming at You, which I think is actually making a pretty dramatic piece. I'm actually pretty happy with how this is looking so far. I think once once this is done, I I'm I'm going to be really uh happy with it, you know. So >> yeah, it should be. Andrew, >> first I I I want to agree with James on that, too. The one thing about especially your art, Mark, is that, you know, obviously we're not able to go back in time and look at these uh battles and be in the thick of the fighting. Um these images, this art that you create and others like you is putting us for a time in in that image.

[00:29:02]I guess just looking at the picture behind you there, it's putting you right in the battle. It's like you can see the elephant with them. So, I appreciate all that you do.

[00:29:11]>> Thank you.

[00:29:11]>> Yeah. And you've painted a lot of paintings of different battles in that in your career. What's your favorite one that you've done? And what about your favorite regiment or soldier study that you've done?

[00:29:23]>> Oh my god. Soldier study. Um, well, there's not one particular soldier study that I've done that I'm I that's my favorite. Um, I kind of like that Aven goes wild. I thought that that one's pretty good. Uh, I think I'm getting better as I'm as I'm as I go along doing them. Some of my older ones I'm like I I look at them now and I'm like, "God, I could have done that better." A little, you know, any any artist is very self-critical. Like, you know, it's not just me. There's there's a lot of artists will look back at their older work and be like, "Oh god, I could have done that a little bit better. Wish I'd have done that instead of that." You know, kind of thing. But, you know, you as an artist, what you do is you you create something and then you kind of let it go and you let it go into the into the uh into the ether and and it come, you know, it'll come back to you eventually or or hopefully people will enjoy it and everything. Uh, as far as battle scene is concerned, I think one of my favorite pieces that I think I've ever done is the 14th Brooklyn at the railroad cut of Brooklyn at Gettysburg.

[00:30:23]That's one of my pieces that I'm kind of uh Yeah, thank [laughter] the soldier study. Um I I have always loved how I don't know like I I guess I was able to kind of instill a a feeling of movement and bring kind of like the the atmosphere of the day into that piece. There's some paintings that I kind of want to go back and redo uh that I that I I am going to go back and redo that I've done in the past or some some that I want to kind of like, you know, uh do another take on kind of the kind of thing. Excuse me. Like there's one that I I want to do the fifth New York at at Second Manasses again. I did a painting of them a long time ago.

[00:31:02]Actually, Brian Pohanka, the late Brian Pohanka ended up buying that piece from me, >> right? and he was my first like real customer.

[00:31:11]And I think I think the painting is still in his I think his wife still has the painting if I if I remember correctly. But eventually I want to go back and redo that scene because I just think that there's a point of view that I think I could do that might make it a little bit more dramatic than the way I've done it before. I want to redo Ben Krippen again because I did a painting of him. I' I've always liked that painting, but I I kind of felt like, all right, there's another way of doing it that I think might be a little bit more dramat dramatic and better. And as another another favorite piece of mine that um that I I've always been proud of too was Hoods Texans. I always like that piece as far as the way the way, you know, a lot of people really compliment that one. And I did that for Harley-Davidson. That was uh >> Oh, really?

[00:31:55]>> That was Yeah, that was a nice uh nice commission project. And uh another companion piece to that that for for Harley-Davidson as well was for uh was the boy major was u of Latimer's battery at the at um Benner's Hill is a another those I'm I'm most proud of those pieces uh because I think they came out pretty successfully. There's a recent of all the of the recent paintings that I've done. the one I I've done at of of um of Colonel um oh god I'm I'm blanking on his name now. It's um Colonel Halamand Halddederman S. Putnham at Fort Wagner.

[00:32:33]He was part of the seventh New Hampshire infantry and he led the attack after Shaw's men went in.

[00:32:40]>> Okay.

[00:32:40]>> He was part of the second wave that came in and and unfortunately he was he was killed um at that battle. Um, so the painting that I did recently is a commission for somebody's fault on Fort Wagner is is a piece that I'm >> [clears throat] >> uh especially happy with, too. So, I don't know. As I as I go on and get older, I feel like I'm getting better at at painting. It behooves you as if you're going to be an artist, you have to learn as you go along and experiment and try new things and try to try to try to make each painting better as as you go along, you know?

[00:33:14]>> I would imagine.

[00:33:16]I've been doing Project Pass for I guess five, six years. And obviously I I can relate. I'm not an artist by any means, but I can relate from my first video to where I'm at now. You know, they still make me nauseous, but I know I'm a little more comfortable with what I put out now.

[00:33:33]>> But I also I see things different. So when I'm at Gettysburg, I'm like, "Okay, if I position the camera here, I can really capture this angle and, you know, the shadow on this monument." So, you kind of see like the lighting and the the way the sun is differently. Is that similar for art? I'm assuming for painting.

[00:33:49]>> Really? It's it um I'll just show on this piece. I don't know if you could see it, but >> you notice how the bottom part is a little bit darker than say the middle part.

[00:33:57]>> Mhm.

[00:33:57]>> That's kind of a a not an artist trick, but it's a well-known kind of artist's thing where when you make the the the foreground a little bit more in shadow, it focuses the viewer on the main subject.

[00:34:12]on. U on so my my whole plan is to make this kind of actually a little bit more this whole foreground is going to actually be a little bit more darker than it is now where these guys are really going to be because they were kind of like charging into the sunlight and the they were charging basically west and the sun was kind of right in front of them. So they kind of had the sun in their eyes unfortunately. I want to try to build up the dram the drama in the painting by making the foreground a little bit darker and making the the middleground and these guys the main focus of what we're seeing basically.

[00:34:45]And you see that a lot in classical paintings too. You'll see dark areas and foreground areas and then you'll see the main subject is lit up a certain way to kind of bring them out.

[00:34:55]>> Yeah. I mean, it's just just little details like that when you look at an image, you don't even realize, but you know how much thought just goes into painting certain parts of the image a different shade just to draw the attention somewhere else. It's it's fascinating really.

[00:35:10]>> It's also things like, okay, where do you you know, where where do you point musketss in a painting? Like cuz a musket can draw your eye either right off the canvas or it you can actually use musketss and and weaponry to kind of have the viewer's eye kind of like stay within the painting. It's it's pretty interesting. A good artist will will know how to how to do that. Yeah, >> actually in your I think it's your Brickyard uh painting >> um in the distance you see the Confederates on a ridge and they're firing a volley into I believe it's the 154th New York >> and your eyes naturing and you go right to where the 154th New York is. So, it's funny you mentioned that.

[00:35:52]>> Yeah, actually that's another I I forgot about that. That's actually another painting that I did recently that I'm actually really really happy with that that it came out and I actually just sold that original this week.

[00:36:02]>> Oh, wow. Congrats.

[00:36:03]>> It's going to a new home on Saturday.

[00:36:05]>> Fantastic.

[00:36:06]>> Yeah, >> that portion of the battlefield there's there's not a whole lot left. You have that little strip.

[00:36:11]>> When you get to see painting I believe a few other artists have done paintings of the brickyard, but when you get to see those paintings, you kind of get to see what the men were wearing, what the terrain was like, and what that whole area looked like. because it's hard to tell today.

[00:36:25]>> Yeah. In that particular piece, uh, one of the things I really wanted to do was to show, uh, the expanse of what we're what they were dealing with as far as the not only the train, but how big these battle lines were and how the what the actual scope of the threat was that they were facing as as they're as all these huge lines of Confederate soldiers were just coming up over the hill over, you know, to give the viewer an idea of, okay, this is what they're facing. They're facing masses of of greatclad soldiers just coming up over over the ridge and they're just not stopping, you know. So, yeah. And I'm really happy with how that piece came out because I think I I think I was pretty and that was an example of okay, in that piece that was an example of I I literally it took me almost a year to sketch that whole painting out >> because of all the different If you if you go in there and you look there's a lot of different figures in there that are that are drawn in. and I drew every single one of one of them out of out of my head. I didn't pose anybody for that that piece.

[00:37:30]>> It's one of the pieces I'm kind of Yeah, I don't know why I didn't mention it before, but yeah, it is one of the pieces I'm I'm very proud of and very happy that it came out the way they did it did.

[00:37:39]>> Well, it's not Civil War related, but uh we do got a chat, Mark, that your Valley Forge paintings were featured in Ken Burns's The American Revolution. So, what an honor that was. Congrats.

[00:37:53]>> Yeah, that was a that was a mind trip, I tell you. [laughter] >> Yeah, that was uh I thought it was I I just I don't know like I I like I said before, I was kind of like a you know, I grew up in a single family uh single mother household. I had, you know, four three other siblings. Like I said before, like art kind of really gave me a focus in life and gave me a reason to kind of kind of stay out of trouble kind of thing. combination of watching Glory and watching Ken Burns's Civil War was really what got me hooked into history and kind of launched helped to launch my career as a as a historical artist. And I'm thinking like here I am like what was it 35 years later almost 40 years later and now one of my paintings is in the documentary of the guy that got me into the Civil War.

[00:38:46]>> So I thought that was pretty cool, you know. I was just >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:51]>> You know, so anyway, I don't know. I just I just uh I'm I'm happy. I'm I'm you know, I'm glad that that my work is is in there and uh I'm honored and um I don't know what else to say about it.

[00:39:05]I'm I'm honored that Valley Forge asked me to do the paintings for them, you know, back back in 2018.

[00:39:11]And um you know, that was a project in and of itself to do those paintings and stuff. And I'm glad that, you know, I'm happy to say that I that my artwork's hanging in basically, you know, hanging at the visitors center. Not hanging, but not the original artwork, but reproductions of the artwork is being displayed at the visitor center in Valley Forge. So, I don't know. It's I It's kind of a It's kind of surreal, you know.

[00:39:37]>> Yeah.

[00:39:38]>> Yeah. And that's Valley Forge is one of the most important moments in our nation's history. It was make or break.

[00:39:44]And uh Yeah. So, the fact that it's there, you should feel honored. It's It's a huge feel.

[00:39:48]>> Yeah. Yeah. It was a heck of a project to work on. It's uh that was kind of interesting, but it was it it actually the great thing about it was that uh it actually taught me a lot about Revolutionary War, uh military equipment and uniforms and uh 18th century dress, especially women's dress, too. They really uh the park staff was really really good about guiding me on certain things that I I wasn't 100% sure of. So they helped a lot with with that. So >> for me, this is completely selfish.

[00:40:19]You're one of the few artists who have depicted the 20th New York State Militia, the 80th New York, my ancestors regiment, in a fight.

[00:40:27]>> So the fact that I can't I don't know what my ancestor's name is Patrick Bordon, company F. I don't know what he looks like. But when you brought their battle to life at second Manasses when they're attacking the deep cut, you know, I can some of those soldiers and be like, maybe my ancestor was like that guy. Maybe he looked like that guy. It kind it brought that battle to life for me because seeing them in action, seeing their uniforms again, seeing where they fought. It's uh that's one of my favorite pieces by you.

[00:40:57]>> Thank you. Um yeah, that was a cool piece to work on, too. Like every piece that I work on, I try to, you know, like I say, I try to get things right. And and one of the things that I always try to keep in in mind, too, when I'm working on on a piece is uh you know, these were people's families. These are these, you know, these are people's brothers, sister brothers, uh well, in some cases, I guess sisters, uh you know, camp situations, things like that.

[00:41:24]But like the people that lived back then, you know, these are some of these ancestors from today, you know, and when you paint, for me as an artist, when I try to paint something, I try to give it the respect it deserves cuz these were these are human beings just like I just like I am, you know, like how is how is somebody going to pick me if if I'm worthy of of a painting ever 150 years from now? How is somebody going to depict me? you know, are they going to treat it with the respect that hopefully I deserve or are they just going to treat it as a Thomas Concaid painting and, you know, put a bunch of flowers and stuff, you know, and make it like all kind of like just commercialized?

[00:42:04]And I'm like, uh, you know, you got to really be careful with history. You got to really try to depict it because these were you're kind of like the people that that went through this this this time these times, Revolutionary War, Civil War, any war.

[00:42:18]Uh they deserve it. They deserve to be depicted, you know, as accurately as possible with respect. Their stories need to be told in a way that that honors their memory. So that's what I always try to do when I try to depict a paint when I try to do a painting is especially if it's of a historical subject I try to uh treat it in the most historically accurate way possible and try to give them the dignity that that that that's warranted kind of.

[00:42:49]>> So yeah, you kind of answered my next question. I was going to say, you know, what what was your main what is your main goal when someone looks at your painting? Like what do you want them to take away from that? And you you kind of just answered that.

[00:43:01]>> Yeah. I just want people to be like, "Okay, this is the way the Battle of Gettysburg looked at the First Minnesota charging in made their attack." There's a bunch of paintings of it, but hopefully mine is a little bit more uh gives them more of the dignity that they deserve. people can look at it and and say, "Okay, I I don't want to be negative, but I I've seen some artists who do Civil War art and I it looks literally like I don't know, like it just a fantasy piece." And I'm like, why why are you doing this? Like why? you know, I understand why you're doing it that it's the m, you know, you're doing it for the money, but and for the fame or whatever, but really you're not you're not, you know, g you're giving some, you know, regiment the wrong flags that they that weren't even at this particular battle or, you know, you're showing like a scarecrow in the cornfield, you know, kind of thing. Like what, you know, do your research and show, you know, show show these people the way they would have been fighting and the way they would have been dying in a lot of cases. You know, these are human beings.

[00:44:02]that that we're we're >> we're showing, you know. So, I don't know. Just that's what I try to do, you know.

[00:44:11]>> Absolutely. Well, I have I got one more question for you, then I'll throw it to Andrew.

[00:44:15]>> You can go back in time and witness any battle and paint it as accurately as you could. What battle would that be?

[00:44:24]>> Uh the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg, Baron.

[00:44:29]And I I would be there watching if I was if I was able to go back in time, I would go to McFersonson's um ridge and watch the first core coming up and going into into line and watching the 14th Brooklyn going to line and um seeing the Iron Brigade going to line of battle and going into the woods bec Well, one of the one of the other reasons for that is I think are you guys familiar with the the photo from Gettysburg, the the harvest of death.

[00:45:03]>> Yeah.

[00:45:03]>> Yes.

[00:45:04]>> Okay. So, you know that. All right. So, you know, you know, basically uh so a lot of people are saying well the main historians are saying uh like Frazzanito says that basically from my understanding that that location has not been found yet. Uh, but in my opinion and just my I'm convinced that it has been found and I I believe that that area is right next to the McFersonson's Woods and I I believe that those dead men are members of the Iron Brigade and the 151st Pennsylvania. And I think there's reasons why I think that is, but I've studied that. I've studied Fresnito's photos books for a long time and and Civil War photographies. I'm sorry, Civil War photography for basically all my life since I got into the Civil War. And those photos have always been a mystery. And uh my my my working theory is I believe that those men were killed partially. The Iron Brigade guys were killed in the morning when they deployed into line. I I believe that spot that they're in is right in front of the McFersonson's wood when when the uh iron brigade the sickening came in. They came up on a little ridge and I think that's that first volley that they got >> that I think that's what produced a lot of those men >> and and then later on in the day when the 151st came in uh there was fighting back and forth in that area and I think a lot more casualties kind of piled on in that area and I also think a lot of those men were moved around but the reason why I think it's the 151st Pennsylvania is because obviously the guys are wearing frock coats both the the the second Wisconsin and The 151st are known for wearing frock coats. Okay.

[00:46:42]But if you look really really carefully, like really zoom in, there's a there's a shoulder strap on the guy on one of the on one of the shoulders of the of one of the dead guys.

[00:46:53]The only unit that had from my what I understand, the only unit that I that I've been that I that was there at that particular moment or that particular part of the battlefield that had those shoulder straps was 151st Pennsylvania.

[00:47:08]Okay. There's a kebaby laying on the ground that I believe has a core badge on it. Has a c a blue c I think it's a blue or I think it would be a blue circle laying on the ground as well. And also if you look really carefully there's a you know those camp shoes those those sporting shoes that that were worn during the Civil War. There's one laying on the ground right next to one of the guys and the 14th Brooklyn were known to have worn those shoes.

[00:47:33]There's photographs of men in the 14th Brooklyn wearing those shoes and other units of the first corps wearing those shoes. [snorts] Now, what what what boggles my mind about it is, okay, if that that area was photographed, why are there no other photographs in that area in that area of the battlefield? Like, why didn't Gardner's team, you know, turn around and take photos of the of the McFerson's barn or take other photos in that area? I don't know. But my my my supposition my thought is they were probably chased off by the Union soldiers because they're burying people and they're saying like like what the hell are you doing photographing people?

[00:48:08]Get, you know, get out of here kind of thing.

[00:48:09]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:10]>> So, but I'm I'm I'm pretty convinced that that that area has been found and it's right with on the first core battlefield. So So I would want to go back and see a lot of that stuff. I want to see the 147th New York when they get exposed there.

[00:48:26]>> Yeah. you know, it's kind of you kind of wonder about it because like, okay, do I really want to go back and see that? But yeah, it's kind of like I kind of would because I want to see what what was going on, like what really happened, you know?

[00:48:37]>> Uh what about you? What would what would be your favorite?

[00:48:41]>> Uh for me, man, I Gettysburg's an interesting one. I mean, you can I want to see day two unfold just because of how I really like day two. Um but also Antina, I want to see the cornfield.

[00:48:54]>> Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't want to see it, but if you know, if you're going, like you said, if you're going to be there to witness it, those those two.

[00:49:02]Um, also, I guess I'll throw in Chikamaga. I want to see the sixth floor to charge across Vineyard Field.

[00:49:07]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:49:08]>> Yeah, >> that's cool, >> Andrew.

[00:49:11]>> Yeah. So, um, my favorite battle to study is the wilderness. Um, so I would so probably um the action in Saunders field, but another one too, I mean I feel like this is kind of one of those things where you have to kind of see it to believe it type deal is the pickage charge. I think that's a cliche to say.

[00:49:33]I mean that, you know, I feel like everybody would kind of want to see something similar, but just watching the Confederates come across that field that day. I I mean, and you're behind a Stonewall, I don't know. And you could say the same thing about the sunken road at Fredericksburg, too.

[00:49:50]>> Yeah.

[00:49:51]>> Yeah. Any any one of those battles would have been very interesting probably to go back and just be, you know, be behind a rock and kind of watch what was going on. You know, >> like pick George would be tough because like Cushing's right in front of you.

[00:50:03]You're like, "Dude, just I know what happens. Just come back here."

[00:50:06]>> Yeah.

[00:50:07]>> Yeah. Be like, "Come.

[00:50:09]>> You're too young, man."

[00:50:10]>> Yeah. I know. I know. But yeah, like like just wa for me it would be the first day just watching the first core come up and deploy and doing the first core did so much fighting especially like especially um um you know both both brigades the iron brigade and and um Cutler's brigade did so much hard fighting during that entire day and just everything the way they happened just is through happen stance and the way each the way each uh the battle flowed. It was just um very very interesting how it happened and so many casualties on the first day like the first corp basically almost stopped ce stopped functioning as a unit that day >> you know >> and um yeah I just it just it's it's mindboggling to think of and to see John Burns >> come out of his house and >> and try to join up with Pennsylvania units and stuff and then fight with the Iron Brigade. That would be interesting to watch too.

[00:51:09]>> Yeah. And then you got Bergwwind coming up with the 26th and it's just these iconic names that you we read about today. It would be it's it's it's hard not to choose Gettysburg.

[00:51:20]>> Yeah. I So I'm hoping before I kick the bucket, I hope that they make another Gettysburg movie that's better than the one that was made in the 90s that dep that's kind of handled more like in a saving probably Ryan kind of way.

[00:51:35]>> Yeah.

[00:51:36]>> True. like brutality and >> yeah, just showing you know without the without the without the uh fluff to it basically I guess you could say like just showing that that these guys were you know how these guys actually were they were they were soldiers and they were men >> and and they uh they were human like I said before they were human beings you know I thought movies like Saving Private Ryan really did a good job of showing people showing the soldiers as human beings another good movie that that really does that too is um 13 Hours: The Secret Soldiers of Benghazi.

[00:52:12]Have you guys ever seen that movie?

[00:52:14]>> Yeah, >> that movie is fantastic. the way they depict stuff. And I wish I wish I wish that I wish a Civil War movie, a modern Civil War movie could be done, you know, not like a Jimmy Jerry Brookheimr kind of way, but more real to what it actually would have probably been like as far as, >> you know, battle casualties and movements and, you know, not these long speeches of like, oh, you know, like we're going to fight for our country kind of thing like like Yeah, that stuff is cool, too, but it's not like it didn't happen all the time.

[00:52:47]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:48]>> And if you listen to uh Dr. Jared Frederick there on Real History, um he's talked about a few times and this might be right up your alley, Mark. But um he's talked what would really be cool is a Band of Brothers like series with >> the Iron Brigade. I think that would be pretty sweet.

[00:53:08]>> Yeah, I think one of those should be done on the 14th Brooklyn.

[00:53:11]The 14th Brooklyn, let me tell you, the 14th Brooklyn, >> they need to have a movie made about them because that that unit right there, not only not only are they a really cool unit from Brooklyn, I mean, they were a militia regimen from Brooklyn, but they had a really cool looking uniform that was distinct throughout the army and they fought in every single major battle in the east up until, you know, the the wilderness and then Yeah, there you go.

[00:53:39]by Mark Merit right there.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah, [laughter] >> blurry.

[00:53:44]>> Those th that unit right there could you could do a like a seven-part miniseries on that B on that unit and it would not be boring. It would not it would be just as good as probably Band of Brothers or even Pacific. You know, >> the Pacific was I thought was great.

[00:54:00]>> Yeah, for sure. that that whole depiction of how the battle scenes and that that that whole series are just fantastic.

[00:54:08]>> Yeah. The Pac I mean, no war is gentle and kind, but the Pacific theater, it's just I feel like it's it was a different level of brutality.

[00:54:16]>> Yeah. The uh the scene that always gets me in the Pacific is that I think it was in episode five when they come in on >> Oh, yeah.

[00:54:24]>> on the beach when they come from the ship.

[00:54:26]>> Hello.

[00:54:27]that that one moment where where uh I think it was uh >> Sledge Sledge looks over at uh at at Snafu.

[00:54:35]>> Yes.

[00:54:35]>> And Snafu offers him a cigarette and he goes, "No." He goes, "No." And he goes, "Yeah." He's like [laughter] He's like He goes, "I don't smoke." He goes, "Oh, yeah. Okay.

[00:54:45]>> You're going to smoke after the end of the day today?"

[00:54:47]>> Absolutely.

[00:54:48]>> Like that that that particular little thing, little scene right there was just so good. like the way it was the way it was executed. It was just like, "Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. Giving humanity to these people, you know."

[00:55:01]>> Yep.

[00:55:03]>> So, um, >> Mark, this has been great. Uh, we we got to have you on again. Well, maybe we'll do a regiment deep dive or something.

[00:55:13]>> Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm always I'm always interested in talk about regiments and things like that. Uh, >> now if someone wanted to own your artwork or a beautiful shirt like I got here, where would they find your work if they wanted to own a piece of it themselves?

[00:55:29]>> All right. Well, if you're if you're interested in contacting me or seeing my work, I have a website which is meat.com.

[00:55:37]m a r i t- o.com.

[00:55:40]Um, there you can find uh prints of my work, you can find original artwork. I also have an eBay store that I've had for years that you can I sell prints and original artwork through as well. And then I'm also represented by a gallery in Connecticut which is Terry James Art and Frame in Oxford, Connecticut. And they they handle uh sales of my original artwork. You could call them too. If you're if you're interested in going through gallery, they're very very very nice people and they do custom framing and everything and they're they're very they're great. Um so yeah. And and also I have um I have a YouTube channel which is a brush with history that shows me working on my paintings. I I've stopped uploading to that for right now just because as you know James dealing with digital video files are a bear.

[00:56:32]Uh they could be really really huge and really really time consuming to try to uh deal with. So, I had to make an a choice of, okay, do I want to keep making videos or do I want to keep painting because this is really coming cutting into my painting time. So, I'm still going to put up videos as I can, but I kind of had to kind of step away from that a little bit just cuz um I found that I wasn't doing as much artwork as I wanted to do. So, uh you know, hopefully I'll be able to get back to that at some point soon. But, uh you know, I really want to focus on my art and stuff. So, uh, so if you're interested in that, and then I also have a Facebook page if you want to find me on Facebook. Um, join my my I'm always giving updates on Facebook. So, um, I really appreciate you guys having me on.

[00:57:16]Thank you so much. You know, we appreciate having you on. I mean, you're uh, >> you said your artwork is usually one of the first things that pop up in any sort of Google search or any sort of research deep dive I'm going on. So, it's nice to meet the man behind the canvas. So, thank you for your time.

[00:57:32]>> Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

[00:57:34]>> And yeah, maybe we'll have you back on.

[00:57:35]Let's I want to d Let's dive into the 14th Brooklyn. Maybe for the uh Gettysburg anniversary or something.

[00:57:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Anytime. Just let me know and I'll make time for it.

[00:57:46]>> Absolutely. As long as it doesn't cut into your artwork time. Like [laughter] >> that's I I've done a few of these uh podcasts and and they're fun to do.

[00:57:54]They're It's nice to talk to people and it's nice that people are are genuinely interested in what I do, which is nice, you know. Um, I love talking about it, so anytime.

[00:58:04]>> Fantastic. Well, thank you guys for listening and uh, like I always say, we're going to catch you on the next one.

[00:58:11]>> Subscribe now to the Distant Drums podcast and march with us from Fort Sumpter to Appamatics because history doesn't just echo, it marches on.