Ep. 53: Ben Appel on Gender Heresy, Exile and Belonging

Añadido: 2026-06-01

[00:00:02]We are live or at least Substack is.

[00:00:05]Yes, we are now live. This is We made this political. We are absolutely thrilled today to be joined by Ben Appel. Uh Laura is going to give a uh quick bio and then we're going to jump right in. I think this is going to be an amazing conversation. So, thanks for being with us, Ben.

[00:00:20]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:00:22]>> Hi, everyone. Uh we're really excited to talk to Ben Appel today. He is a writer and the author of Cis White Gay, the making of a gender heretic heretic.

[00:00:33]How? Say it for me, Ben.

[00:00:36]>> Heretic.

[00:00:36]>> Heretic. I was just talking to Lauren about this at the beginning of the podcast. Um, I don't say heretic enough, clearly. Um, all right, let me start that over. Ben Appel is a writer and the author of Cis White Gay, the maker of a gend making of a gender heretic, a memoir about belonging, exile, and ideological conformity across very different communities. His work examines how identity, group loyalty, and the human need for belonging can shape what we believe and what it costs to descent.

[00:01:07]So, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:09]We're really excited to to talk with you today.

[00:01:12]>> I'm excited to talk with you both.

[00:01:14]So, let's start with like the sort of foundational question like at what what made you realize that you had to write uh cis white gay? Was it like a lightning bolt moment or like a gradual decision? I mean, it seems clear that like when you set out to become an author, this was not necessarily like the kind of writing you had envisioned doing.

[00:01:33]>> Yeah. Yeah. I um so I spent like a bajillion dollars to go back to school and at Colombia and as a non-traditional student like I went back to school in my 30s, you know, I had had a long career in hairdressing and I was kind of I mean I worked my butt off. I I was kind of banking everything on this and so I was like I'm going to be a writer. Like this is what I'm doing. I worked as hard as I could and I I I you know so when I'm also an honest person and Megan Dom is like a big influence of mine the writer who who has her her podcast um the unspeakable or the unspeak easy um and and she's been writing for a long time and I've been following her work forever like even before I kind of became like a heretic or whatever and she has she's always said like nobody can love you until somebody hates you kind of like you have to write honestly otherwise you're just a bad writer. If you're going to put out the stuff that pleases everyone, it's just not good writing. So write honestly, write what you think. And she's always kind of bravely done that. And I've always been kind of pulled towards writers that do that. I think everyone is like, >> you know, when you pick up something that you're like, oh, I feel less alone or like I feel, you know, like this was this gave me more insight about something that everyone's doesn't really like to talk about. that's uncomfortable, but this person kind of was bold about it and put themselves forth. And so that was kind of the model that I always followed. So I'm as I'm writing, I couldn't not I could not couldn't not reflect on what I was seeing around me and what was going on like that was I'm a kind of a personal essayist, memoirist, journalist, you know, like writer kind of in that vein. And so it was just something that I completely had to do.

[00:03:26]And so like that was just the natural way that like my writing turned towards was okay, I'm having a breakdown. Like this is crazy what I'm seeing around me at Colombia and elsewhere and this isn't what I understand liberalism to be and this seems regressive and so on. So that was what what happened there.

[00:03:49]Um, so you know, I've been reading the book, which by the way I should hold up so people can see. Um, and it's it's just really fascinating because I I love how you like walk us through what's happening to you and what you're thinking about at these like various stages when you're, you know, over the course of your life and when you go back to school. Um, but I there are so many things that I read and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, we talk about this kind of thing all the time on the podcast." And so one of the things that you write is that um I wanted a big and powerful government so long as it intervened properly on my behalf. And I feel like this is like the peak this is peak politics right now. Like this is exactly where everybody is. It's causing so much strife. Um and you so you go in to say anyone who disagreed was simply unworthy of my respect. And so I think like it's it's really unusual that anybody sort of spots themselves holding that view and like you did, right? Like you kind of I I assume through your writing were like, "Oh, wait a minute. What am I what am I doing?" Um and so I wonder like can you talk about coming to that realization that you were seeing that your view of how government should function was not aligned with liberal liberal values. um and and maybe how other people can reach that same view and and how we can help bring it to people's attention because I think it's it's really damaging right like government is not for a side it's for everybody >> right and also kind of like the more polarized we become the more you know we're reflected by that in our representative our elected representatives and then they become kind of you know further left further right or like the and and we're all kind of pushed back and forth. So, you know, you get one party in power.

[00:05:42]>> They're like, >> "Reverse everything, do all this, and then it's just going to get continuously worse because every two years, every four years, however many years, when whether it's at the local level or at the federal level, we have different people in office and a different party in office, we're just all going to be kind of bashed back and forth. going to be whiplash and people are going to be more uh they're going to be more radicalized and they're going to be more reactionary and it's just only natural and it's going to become even more tribal and more polarized and we're just not we're in for like a really bumpy ride. We're obviously on that bumpy ride now I think you know I guess you would agree. Um, so that was kind of kind of having this come to like of wow. First of all, so many of the beliefs that I was espousing were kind of things that I was just paritting like things that I really didn't understand fully.

[00:06:39]It's hard. Politics is hard to, you know, there's a lot you you you have to understand. There's so much to understand history, where we come from.

[00:06:48]And the more you know, the more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know. And then also the more you realize that this is a nuanced and very gray area. There are a lot of variables and factors here and that there is not an easy fix or there's that's why we need more than one party. You know, that's why we need a a kind of open debating society where we can really talk about these issues. So, if we're just reacting and and getting angry and not allowing each other to speak or voice things, then we're we're not going to get to the best solution. And it's also going to make people more reactionary because they're going to start spewing what they feel they need to say because they're not just given like the the space to just say, "Hey, I see what you're saying. I think that this approach is actually going to be better." You can call it a conservative approach or you can call it a progressive approach, but I think that we need or at least we need to keep this in mind. And so if we're putting that down and suppressing that, then it's going to come out like, you know, and and and everything that's reactionary and comes from a place of anger. And I can be guilty of it. I have been it it was tough. I I I I've struggled with that. And so keeping calm and and and peaceful is has been difficult. But um yeah. So what was the question?

[00:08:15]So, I I'm just like struck by your honesty and sort of how you like were examining your beliefs and what you did and the fact that you were like, "Oh, wait a second. I just think government is great when it's doing what I want and it, you know, and so I I feel like we all have this capacity for selfdeception." Um, and you have done something really difficult, which is like look in the mirror and say, "Hey, the way I've been practicing my politics is is not not how it was designed to be done."

[00:08:47]>> Well, yeah, thank you for that. I mean, I appreciate it cuz like where I, you know, reading the book, you know that like I write honestly about like my drug use. I write and my recovery and like a lot of things that I've gone through and went through and that was kind of the route. Like that's just I'm this that's how I write. I've always kind of just put myself forward on ever since I was young. I mean, not that I've shared it with people since I was young, >> but that's just what I feel drawn to do, like I need to do.

[00:09:14]>> So, this I had to be honest about and I had to be like, um, you know, let's talk. I mean what it so closely related to that is activism to me and advocacy because you know special interest groups are so involved and kind of just have such close relationships or really symbiotic or relationships with the political political parties that represent us. And so, you know, it's so much about messaging and it's about like just, you know, forget let's push all this under the carpet, you know, where and and and eventually things just become built on a house of cards and you question it and it just comes all tumbling down. And so I was at this place where I was at Colombia and I was seeing what was going on around me and I was adapting to this really intense culture and I was also learning. I was reading and writing and learning and learning and learning and I couldn't learn enough. And so the more I learned, the more I was like, this is not the easiest like you know uh oh uh you know the left and Democrats are the >> party of morality and goodness and and picking people up and equality and Republicans they're all white people and they hate every you know what I mean or whatever and they're all it was just so reductive so many of the that I had learned and looked at and just pared again and I was really you know just kind of understanding how just again how much I didn't know and having that kind of you know intellectual humil humility to understand that so um so yeah so when I talk about advocacy I just talk about like how much of what we even politically what we say what we put out there is sloganering it's like so much of it is you know for lack of a better word propaganda like what we do and if you really look at these things they're kind of just really easy ways to paint over how complicated specific issues are.

[00:11:14]>> And um and yeah, I just kind of understood that about myself. Like I realized, >> you know, that just because someone sees something differently for me, they're they're not an evil person.

[00:11:31]There are reasons why people believe and see things the way they do. I mean, I always understood that on an intellectual level, you know, coming from the plate like being a hair stylist for years and years and working with so many people from all walks of life and kind of needing to obviously be polite and kind and develop relationships with people. I did this for years. So, every four weeks I would see someone that was completely different for me.

[00:11:55]>> Could it be uncomfortable sometimes?

[00:11:57]Yeah. But I was professional and I was like, "Okay." So, and it we formed relationships and I and I understood deeper and more deeply about like where they were coming from and who they were as human beings. So, I think just having that experience >> and then coming into this place that was very politically charged, it really helped me to do that. So, it was just kind of like a I mean, yes, I appreciate like the kind of like, oh, you were, you know, you were brave or courageous to do that or whatever your words were. Like being honest, it's it's really nice. But I think that anybody in my situation with my background would have done the same thing. They would have been like had that reflective wow.

[00:12:36]>> Yeah.

[00:12:36]>> So that was actually going to be my my follow-up question is I mean I it seems to me like your your path as a non-traditional student put you in a really good place to be able to look critically at kind of what was happening, right? So you had all of these um you had a lot of experiences with a lot of different people, which not all 18-year-olds do in this day and age, especially at elite universities.

[00:12:55]um there's a sort of like pretty big bubble effect for for a lot of these students. So what do you I mean what do you think it was um that so I guess the question is like you know do you think it was sort of your non-traditional status in part that allowed you to think more critically about a lot of this stuff and then how did that sort of interact with the kinds of conversations you were having on campus?

[00:13:15]>> 100%. And I mean I that's what I write in the the introduction. I'm like, I feel like I'm I'm uh well positioned to write this book. And here's why. Like, I went to Colombia. I was 33. Like, I had already lived a life. Like, I I had struggled. I had, you know, I was in psych words. And not just that, but like I had a fully formed frontal lobe, you know? I And I had also understood what it was like to support myself. Like I say in the book, like I I I had my own apartment and I knew what it was like to pay rent and to have a full-time job and to be in the world and like all of these different things. I was uniquely positioned. So it was a privilege and I did not give a lot of the younger students the grace that I could have or should have initially. Um, I guess I was I I I did not take into account so much the difference in terms of life experience and age because I knew I was more coming from this place where I was going to be intimidated because I knew these were going to be the brightest people and best and the brightest. And I knew I was a bright person. I knew I was smart, but I was also like had that kind of like I'm just a hairdresser coming back to school and like d whatever.

[00:14:27]>> So I was like can I keep up here? Can I do this perform well? And you know of course soon I saw that I could you know thank but I worked really hard but you know I did not give the younger students I did not keep that in mind. So, I was kind of almost hard on them in my head, like, you know, how how reductive they were and how naive they were about specific situations and how I could totally tell that they were just paring what other people had said, whether they're like very influential professor that they had in their queer theory class the the semester before or whatever, you know, what they were looking at on their timelines, their social media timelines and so on or or the cool student in the classroom that had that like totally radical Nobody's ever said this before. And you know how with radicalism it's like the more radical you are like the more you're going to attract those who and so suddenly you're just spewing banana stuff then everybody's like that was brilliant. Oh my god. You know and and and after a while you're like wait a minute that's actually >> right. Um, so, uh, yeah, it it it totally put me at a position where I was it was such a great experience. It wasn't like I was just kind of going into the classrooms and observing or being a fly on the wall. Like, I was there like I was in it. And um, you know, yeah, that was probably one of the the best things about it. I recommend everybody developing a drug habit. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:16:03]um and dropping out of college and then going in your recovery and then no and then so you can go back to school in your 30s. No, I don't recommend that.

[00:16:10]But I do think that there's such a value to at least if you do do the college age at the traditional age like continuing education or something, you know, because >> I mean, man, when I was younger, like what are young people interested in in college? Like they're yes they can be curious obviously they can be smart and study these things but they're thinking about like boyfriend girlfriend sex you know party coolness my parents breathing down my neck like whatever you know figuring out who they are and and so it's so much better >> um and it's such a richer experience when you at least to know a little bit about who you are.

[00:16:51]>> Yeah. I also think like your your story of crossing like your your story of like inhabiting multiple worlds I think is a really critical part of this too which is like you you obviously came from this like very uh like very unique upbringing right um and then you so there's a certain kind of like whiplash but I think there's also a space and I'm speaking from my experience here which is um I I spent a lot of time in progressive activist circles in college and then um and worked actively in progressive activism in college and then ended up um studying under conservative thinkers in grad school. And so, but one of the things that I think that that experience has demonstrated points to something that you said earlier, which is like people actually do have reasons for the things they believe, right? Like it's really hard to spend a lot of time in like in a specific group of people in a community and and come out of it thinking that they're all terrible human beings. Like maybe there are situations in which that happens but like but I think my experience like working with lots of diverse groups politically as well as actually lots of different religious work like I have a really weird religious background which you do too. Um you know like there like people are usually like decent human beings like and they're trying to do their best with like limited knowledge and limited information. Um and so it just makes it a lot harder to like dehumanize people.

[00:18:07]Whereas if you if you're coming from like a single perspective and you've only hung out in either like progressive circles or conservative circles or libertarian circles, it's a lot easier to dehumanize the other side because you actually don't have this range of experiences with them. Whereas I think you came into Colombia like with a range of experiences, not all good, right? But like you you you kind of saw the the full like I use the phrase deep pluralism, but like you saw all of that um like all what humanity has and that made it harder I'm guessing for you to be like yeah this makes a lot of sense like >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you said so much there and you know um I also was thinking as you were speaking about how you know when people are that they don't get the opportunity to hear various viewpoints in educational settings.

[00:19:04]>> Yeah. They almost become starved for a different perspective and then they can get drawn if they if they if they start finally getting it, they can kind of feed on the most extreme >> aspects of that offlimits politics.

[00:19:26]So, it's so important like being at Columbia like you were saying you said you studied under some conservative professors and so whatever. I don't know if I had like a single conservative professor or I maybe did but they didn't speak conservative ideals or values or whatever kind of put that forth >> and so it was hugely lacking because >> because things were taught you know with a a more left-wing slant but then also you have this other thing coming in which is you know postmodernism and critical theory which is just kind of warping everything.

[00:20:09]I'm glad that it was there because otherwise if it was not, I would have just continued to digest >> everything and not really question what I was being told. But that critical theory stuff, you can see right through it. Like it just kind of unravels unravels and then it gets to nowhere. Like it doesn't really make sense. And then you're like but what about or but what about it's just this complete you know deconstructing of knowledge and what we understand to be true but there's like no end point. It's just like okay and then but but things some things are true you know we do have reality like there's there are things that like I'm I'm knocking on this desk right now like we're whatever. Anyway, so that really when I was starting to criticize, you know, and kind of think critically about what I was hearing and learning there, it allowed me to kind of like go a little bit deeper and be like, okay, and kind of see where critical theory was really embedded in a more, you know, left politics.

[00:21:10]>> And so then it just kind of was my inroad to questioning a lot of what was going on there. So anyway, I guess what I was saying was I could have easily and I did maybe dance around this at points because being so starved for that and also being so like demonized in this um this culture and this world as like a white guy but also a cis white gay which was the title of my book, you know, like I >> I felt so starved for like so when I would understand or hear different conservative ideas being like yeah or whatever things that were just totally like I would be like you know thank god like I'm getting this somewhere hearing this or like and I could have so easily become a reactionary like a total reactionary >> I flirted with that at times because I was so starved for it like there were times when I was like I I could easily so go like full far like full rightwing right now because I literally hate all these people like they're the worst people they're the crulest people in the world and I feel so lonely and I want to die, you know, and like this is just all and and it's like cuz they're just not making sense. And not everyone was not making sense, but it was just overwhelmingly like difficult to to question the different narratives that >> were begging to be questioned um or at least discussed more more um thoroughly. So yeah, >> you know, sorry, do you want >> Sorry, I was just going to I was going to point out really quickly that like that's one of the frustrations that I have with critical theory is like the you know technically it should teach you to be skeptical of power writ large, right? But but it almost never does that like self-reflective work of like thinking about power dynamics within groups or like power dynamics in terms of censorship or like power dynamics in terms of social pressure and social norms. And yet that's like a huge way that that these groups I mean all human groups exert power. But I don't know if you want to speak a little bit of that.

[00:23:15]I mean I I do think it's like a weird way in which the like they're not doing what they claim to be doing. Like they're not thinking skeptically about power. They're just actually taking power and using it in other domains.

[00:23:28]>> Okay. So yeah, absolutely. And where I think that happens is because it becomes dogma like it becomes a belief system. I mean people replace, you know, whether they had religion and and then left it or never had it and are kind of yearning for some kind of deeper understanding, more meaning in their lives and and their their life experience, it becomes a dogma. And so the the the validity of the viewpoint be or the accuracy or or whatever the the the intellectual like integrity of it becomes so much less important than >> understanding and believing this makes me good >> and you disagreeing makes you bad.

[00:24:15]>> I mean it's kind of >> you know it really comes down to that.

[00:24:19]>> Yeah. I think so many of our political conversations like if if I listen carefully what I hear people saying is like well I'm not bad like that right or like I'm I'm good right those are the bad guys and it's just so incredibly simplistic >> or there's the qualifiers of like if someone gre agrees with a point that a bad person makes >> I don't agree with everything that this person says but like maybe they have a point like there's always these qualifiers like just to let everybody No, >> I'm not Satan.

[00:24:52]>> Mhm.

[00:24:53]>> But Satan had a good point here because I also hated that movie or something like that. You know what I mean? Like whatever. I don't know.

[00:25:01]Um well, one of the things I I noticed in the writing reminded me a lot about Lauren's work on radical moderation and Lauren writes a lot about um binaries and and so like that reading reading your book with that in mind, you know, you you talk about this phenomenon that it would be great to get you to to describe to to people listening, but it's sort of like, okay, everything is a two-sided pairing and one side is good and the other side is bad. So if Israel is bad, Palestine must be good. And if Democrats are bad, Republicans must be good. And it's just like it's it's so simplistic and and in the book it gets to some really absurd places. So could you talk about like some of that some of that absurdity and how it it shows up and how people are actually like relating to real people? It's not theoretical. It's it's real life uh claims and beliefs and behaviors.

[00:26:00]Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that I I don't know what if this is so related and I think it is, but it's just like that's why I find like this political polarization and also like even just Donald Trump like I just it's so unfortunate because you know it's not like everything that comes out of the Trump administration is like the worst idea in the world. I mean there are some bad ideas. They can be all everything can be debated, you know, endlessly, but to have this kind of like bluster and this, >> you know, and and and just this kind of populist approach to things that feeds on people's resentments and anger. I think that's probably what it is is just like really kind of tapping into resentment and anger.

[00:26:54]And so it's so unfortunate because it really kind of feeds into that like black and white nature of things. Like >> I mean try arguing or debating or talking to like a left-wing person now.

[00:27:17]It's so much it's even harder because they're like if you say, you know, this issue is complicated because they're going to be like there's a fascist in office and they're you know what I mean?

[00:27:29]Like they're literally slaughtering people in the streets or like they're like bomb whatever and like the it's just >> like okay this is what ex this is where we're head you know and so when I see these like reactionary leftwing I'm like oh great so that's what we have to look forward to. So now, you know, people on the right who are opposed to that are going to be completely unreachable because every single thing that >> it's just exhausting and we're all like be just bumped around in the middle.

[00:27:59]It's like I write about in the book like every for every it's Newton's third law for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. And it's true in phys it's so true in politics. It's like so many of the things, you know, one side might not even fully believe or understand, but they're reacting to what the the the opposite side is doing. So they're like, well, if they're pushing this, that that's horrible. So we need to push the exact opposite at equal strength. And if you have one extremist side pushing something bananas, then you're going to have the other side pushing the opposite insane thing just as strongly. I I've said a lot like, "Oh my gosh, Donald Trump was like the perfect thing." like these like radicals, let's say, on the left, like >> they couldn't have had a better person to to oppose and fight against. I mean, in 2017, it was like you saw these organizations where their donations went out the roof and then really these, you know, ACLU or whatever these really took a more radical turn >> and it almost kind of seemed like, you know, it they could do it under the guise of this is the extremist over here, >> not me, right? like it's not me, it's them.

[00:29:08]>> Yes. Yes. And so it's just it's just it's that polariz. It's that black and white thing. It's like this person's bad and and this is person's good. And coming from a really religious background, growing up in a Christian covenant community and developing what I write about in the book like OCD, the scrupulosity, like kind of self-canning for signs of immorality all the time.

[00:29:29]>> Yeah.

[00:29:30]>> And feeling like repentant like, "Oh, I I just thought a negative thought. I'm a horrible person." It's so charged in that and and and a lot of and people are really suffering in those spaces.

[00:29:42]There's no grace or mercy or room for dissent. It's not a a healthy space for young people certainly. Um and because they're going back, they are if in their quiet time alone, they're maybe thinking, hm, I don't know about that or I don't know. but they're suppressing their thoughts immediately >> and or and feeling so horrible like oh my god if anybody ever knew I thought that oh my god like >> squash it crush it down >> and it just becomes so self- negating and I say that because that's what I was doing like that's what you know I didn't realize how much I was just suppressing so many of my thoughts about things um you I mean certainly I was suppressing my words and and censoring myself But, you know, it wasn't until I left academia that I was like, "Oh my god, I when I started to kind of think something heretical and I was like, you know, just kind of follow that path and just kind of be curious and intellectually kind of toss and tumble over something." I like my inclination was to stop myself.

[00:30:54]>> Mhm.

[00:30:54]>> And then I was like, "Whoa, that was the atmosphere that I was in." like I was not even allowed to I I wasn't supposed to think that or I was stopping myself from thinking that because that would taint me with something like with the sin like with transgressiveness >> and I would know and it would weigh on me morally.

[00:31:14]>> So there's there's an interesting as I was reading your work one of the things that I noticed was a sort of interesting parallel. So I uh my second book um it was on the medicalization of birth and death and it came out in 2019 and I was finishing it in like 2017 18 or I guess 2018 and like it was at that time that like in the literature on like maternal health and all these other kinds of spaces public health maternal health um there was this really strong push to use neutral language when it came to maternal health and so people were you you were supposed to talk about pregnant people you were There was a move to talk about chest feeding, right? Like there's a move to sort of like erase gender from the conversation and so uh so was really Yeah. So >> erase sex from the conversation. Sorry, I'm like the word gender.

[00:32:02]>> Yeah. No, no, I know you and I are going to actually have some like funny like vocabulary. Um um >> I do not mean to police your language at all.

[00:32:12]>> Yeah, I will I will not be policed. Um but I I did have this like you know so I actually struggled with it because I again like I was a lot of the the literature that I was involved in was like heavily like uh it was like pretty left-leaning like a lot of you know um uh a lot of uh you know and and at the same time I'm also sympathetic to like you know it must be really difficult right to be like a a a non-binary person or a trans person who's like trying to get obstetrics care like that's not an easy like situation. to be in, right?

[00:32:44]Like any stretch of the imagination, it sucks as a sis woman. Like it's not like it's a crap system. And that's actually the whole point of my book. But I was asking some friends of mine and I actually specifically sought out my like super progressive friends who are like very active in like uh like what they would call like you know queer queer activism, queer politics. And I said, "Hey guys, I'm really torn on this. I don't want to use any of this language.

[00:33:08]I don't want to erase like I don't want to erase women from this conversation.

[00:33:11]This is like a huge part of my book is about the way that the system has abused women as a class for hundreds of years, right? Like this like thousands of years really. But like but in this particular context, I was looking at like the last like 150 years, right? And and so like all of these traditions that I was talking about, including like these self-protective like mutual aid traditions like midwiffery were traditions that women had created to protect themselves from this like broader kind of thing. And now I'm being asked to use language that just erases women from the conversation. And I was like, I just don't know how to I don't know how to think about this. Like and so I actually it was a great conversation. Now I had it with very trusted friends. And this is the difference, right? So like this was a group of people that I'd known for like 10 years. We'd actually all had kids.

[00:33:58]Like it was a Facebook group that we it was a we all shared like similar due dates is how we like found each other.

[00:34:03]So anyway, we we'd had some like pretty raw conversations about various things leading up to this. So I knew that I could trust them. Um but it was really great to hear like the different perspectives and in general though they all came to like the point of like you know I think you like they understood my perspective. They almost definitely disagreed with it. Um but then I just sat with myself and I'm like how am I going to read this in five years and like how am I going to think about like what I'm doing with my own work which is really trying to sort of move this conversation forward. Um, and you have a recent Substack post where you talked about like sort of the the distraction of all of this stuff. It really distracts us from the what we're what we should be doing, which is like creating new knowledge, right? Um, and so I ended up like I have a I have a section in the conclusion that talks a little bit about like, you know, how to think about like trans folks within this broader conversation about maternity care because I think it is complicated. But I specifically kept women in the conversation. Um, now you have a similar kind of um, so there's like a couple questions that that like so themes that I'll that I would love if you just want to like jump in on any of them. So there's the question of censorship, right? There's the question of conformity. Um, there's also the question of like all of this stuff actually distracts like I spent way too much time worrying about this language question when what I was really what I should have been doing was focus on the scholarship like that was the important work and yet I had to worry about this stuff, right? because the the pressure to conform was like really pretty serious and I I got that response from reviewers, right? Like my press wanted me to use specific kind of language. So that's like one question I had. But then you have a you have another sort of theme that runs throughout your your work which is like the the way in which these conversations tend to push people toward extremes so that like people aren't even comfortable with like sort of like what you might call like in between identities, right? So like so like like women are sort of erased, right? Like in favor of inclusivity, right? we have to be inclusive to everyone, which means that we now talk about, you know, people who menrate and like pregnant people and all these kinds of things. Um, but then your your experience of like, you know, why can't it be okay for there to be just like boy little boys who like pink or like why is like like a feminine why like why aren't affeminite men like just okay? Like like why do we have to push everything into this like one particular category? Because like that's the category we decide. So there's this like so you have a your own sort of narrative of like the medicalization of gayness, right? But there's also just sort of this like the combination of conformity but then pushing people into these extreme identity buckets where they don't fit. And I think it leads to a lot of eraser of like these other identities like being a cis white gay guy, right? Or being a cis woman. Like you know there's like these identities that are no longer like acceptable if that makes sense. Sorry there was a lot there.

[00:36:52]Yeah, there was a lot there.

[00:36:54]>> I don't even know. I mean, there's so much there. It's like, you know, you Oh, man. There's so much like I could riff on there. I mean, you know, you referenced at the end like medicalization of like gayness and so on. So, just to kind of, you know, speak on that just for a moment like I was a super girly kid. I write about this in the book like very affeminite like are you a boy or a girl? I was, you know, just really identified this as this way as a young age. I was very different.

[00:37:20]And my coping mechanism, like the way that I kind of survived was I just kind of really defeminized myself. I was constantly self-scanning like for signs of femininity when I was a young person because I was like I I saw what was unacceptable, you know, I cut my hair and I walked differently, wore different clothes, and all of these things. I I really and so as I got older and then you know obviously it wasn't long after that that I did realize that I was in fact gay and really struggled with that internally like had so much religious guilt about it and as I got older and really just walk through all of it and and slowly got I was like I would love if we lived in a world where we understood that there's just this minority of people whether it's you know kids or that there's going to be a minority of people that are just different and there's going to be boys that are behave more like typical girls and there's going to be girls that behave more like typical boys and it's going to be a minority. It's going to be a smaller subset because most pe most kids you'll find are going to to kind of be like the the norm. There is a there's such thing as a normative norm. It's not evil. It's not bad. Like it's just that's how it is. And so um and that's going back like the the queer the the kind of critical theory queer approach is like normative is bad. So antive is good. So anything against the norm is good. And then soon it's like well let's marginalize the normal and make >> like totally crazy acceptable and and then you know it is about I mean so anyway as I got older and I got into I was like I would love if there was a world where we acknowledge like and understood and so then we just kind of like created a world where this minority of kids was kind of protected from you know we had all these like anti-bullying campaigns and stuff like that and I mean kind of it was like really just went like nuts. But it had this kind of good idea behind like, hey, like there are going to be some boys that like pink or or want to be in the the the sewing or fashion or whatever and that's okay. And there's going to be girls that are going to really want to be rough and tumble and get on the football team and things like that and be butch and that's okay.

[00:39:31]And like so how do we create a space where you know they don't necessarily all feel like they have to change everything about themselves to fit into society they have like I did you know and and really go inward and it's so diminishing because you're so just as a young person I was so distracted all the time by how was someone perceiving me like oh shoot was I standing with my hand on my hip or like I just ran my hands through my hair too many times or like whatever it was.

[00:39:58]And so just constantly being distracted by that, I was like, it would be so great. And so then as I got into further into activism and I was working at Gladwell, I was at Colombia and all these things. And and then I started learning about how they were medicalizing kids who were, you know, and I was like, that's not what I where medicalizing is in like let's stunt their puberty. Let's let's let's let's uh uh prevent them from sexually maturing because once especially young boys once they go through puberty they're going to masculineize and there's going to be all of these things that we can't reverse like or that it's going to be like surgery after surgery like whether I mean their shoulders are always going to be brought but like facial slimming and jaw this and you know forehead like all these things if we just keep them frozen in time then they're not going to masculineize and then we can just pump them with estrogen and they're going to just look and pass as naturally born or at least have a better chance of passing as female.

[00:41:06]with all with all under the the the kind of idea that this will make them happy because >> where this came from was these Dutch clinicians back in the 80s and the 90s saw that adult males who had transitioned weren't fairing so well and they attributed to the fact that oh they pass and that's the reason why they're unhappy still. That's the reason why they're unhappy. So what do we do? Oh, well, let's just get them while they're young. Let's freeze them while they're young. Like, we'll we'll we'll catch it early and then they'll pass and then everything will be roses. You know what I mean? And it's like uh well, okay, so this kid's just never going to sexually like there were just so many things like pausing puberty like what are the consequence? I mean it was like so insane and also it's just built upon this edifice of total not accepting gender >> non-conformation you know it's the exact opposite you know and activists who argue with me trans activists will say like well but we're talking about gender dysphoria it's not just gender non-conformity it's it's this crippling thing and and and that da and it's like okay well you know what was what did I go through was that gender dysphoria? And also, you know, uh that's not that's pretty a weak argument because the acronym now is TGNC. Like gender non-conformity is under the umbrella of trans as non-binary. Like everything's been swept into this. Like you when when they take surveys, national surveys now, it's like, are you gender non-conforming?

[00:42:47]>> And and and that's my issue. I don't care if you want to identify as a certain way. I'm just concerned about like you're being taken advantage like you're being bought by these pharmaceutical like where did this like radical like you're not going to own me kind of thing. Now it's like hey you're not going to own me but also I'm going to be you know medically change to the medical industry for the rest of my life and let's get you know I mean it's just never ending. And at first I was like maybe I'm wrong about this. maybe there's something that I'm missing. And but when I did the research and went really deep into it, I was like, you know, quietly in my own little corner, I'm like, "Oh my god, this is worse than I thought it was." You know, like it's just kept getting worse and worse.

[00:43:28]Anyway, that was a little bit of a diet tribe because you something that I, you know, kind of have been thinking about um a lot. So, um, but going back to like the distracting nature of critical theory and postmodernism and all of that, you're saying like we should be building new knowledge and and yeah, you you you you mentioned my um recent subsect post and I it was probably about like queer theory or whatever, just a short piece. And so, it is hugely distracting because you're like you're that's what I was noticing so much in these classrooms was like we're not learning anything. All we're doing is undermining everything that we know to be true under the guise of this was created by evil. Everything you know to be true. This society, everything around you, what you understand to be real and true was constructed by the most powerful. And the most powerful were white people, colonizers, cis, you know, heter straight men. And this knowledge is tainted. Mhm.

[00:44:31]>> And so we need to deconstruct it and privilege other ways of knowing.

[00:44:38]>> And it's like, well, it just completely negates everything that came out of the Enlightenment, the scientific revolution, like all of everything we've built and understand and know. It's like, okay, yeah, sure, that's an interesting idea, but the reason why you're able to sit here in this building is because of structural engineers and mechan like you there's a like it's just so like we're in New York City. Do you see that big tower up there? Like how do you think that like I mean like we've done and accomplished like the reason why you have the ability like we have men's and women's rights. We have this liberal society like it's not perfect. No, capitalism is not perfect, but it's pretty much the best we've done so far. And if you look at the past hundred years and the way that mortality rates or when you look at, you know, people living in poverty all around the world, like, you know, pe people raising up out of poverty and so on and and and infant mortality rates and and and all of these things, it's things are changing for have changed for the better because of what we built. And that project is about undermining and deconstructing what we've built. And it's so it's so misguided and and and it taps into young people or vulnerable people any of any any age their desire to be good and to have meaning in their life.

[00:46:03]And so if you are like you will have meaning in your life if you start to understand yourself as something other than male or female because male or female in these categories were invented and you will start to have meaning and you're going to be part of this like elite vanguard >> and you're going to have all the answers and you're going to be fundamentally good and you're going to be showered with and like it's just so intoxicating and seductive. Um, and people undermine that. We people talk about the manosphere and like the and yes, there are so many things to worry about and so people are like, "What about that? What about that?" And I'm like, I get it, but this is a very serious thing that you have just been I think people have been so primed for so many decades, me included. Like our media, our culture, everything has had a very left-wing bent to it. I mean, it was by design. like back in the 60 radical 60s like they these these activists were like we need to get into the institutions and we need to kind of just really carve our way into them so we can really influence our culture from the inside. So positions of influence in art and l in wherever it is and we become so inert under like seeing just a left-wing slant to everything. So anything that negates that becomes so taboo and scary and it's like no this is not rightwing this is not left like this is just liberal this is just >> centrist liberal western ideals that you are thinking are now right-wing you've targeted as rightwing >> so you've been digesting for decades is just this subtle constant messaging, constant messaging. Um, and it becomes so glaring. I mean, like I'm going to shut up here, but like, you know, look like you you watch these late night talk shows, you you become when you start to see it, you be you you really are like just so aware of it. Like when you see talk show that are supposed to appeal to national audiences or whatever, just completely being like, "Oh, well, they're probably a Republican." And it's just so weird. It's like, don't you realize that you probably have Republicans watching, right? Like, so are what are just left Democrats? Like, they're the only people that are supposed that watch TV are supposed to be watching TV. Like I it's so bizarre how we've created this and and seen that as acceptable, as demonizing and negating um to entire swads of people that don't all vote because they want slavery back and like women barefoot and and pregnant in the kitchen. like it's not or that all left wings aren't like you know they don't all vote Democrat because they want like you know abort everyone to have 50 abortions and and and and thrpples and you know whatever it's just you know it it's crazy um and it's so I don't know it's it's it's hard not to get hopeless about things >> it's uh I mean the striking thing is it's like this eraser of complexity Right. I mean, and you talk about it in a gender sense or a sex sense. Very >> very say gender. It's totally fine. I I still use gender, but like, you know, sometimes I'll just be like, I think it's very important to specifically use sex in certain things, especially when we're talking about, you know, but gender is a thing, you know, it is understand it. So, I'm sorry. Continue.

[00:49:42]>> No, no, no. Well, okay. So, um, you know, I one of the things that's kind of horribly ironic is that in a in an attempt to help some people feel more included, what we've also done is said like, well, you can't be a butch lesbian, you must be a man, right? And so, it's like or or the opposite, right?

[00:50:02]And so it's like we've we've further oversimplified these categories rather than saying, "No, there are some women who just present in a masculine way just like there are men who present in a feminine way." And like that's great.

[00:50:18]Like do it the way you want to do it. I think that that is that's intriguing.

[00:50:23]That makes the world interesting. And it's not just true for gender. It's true for religious beliefs and political beliefs, right? And so um I I'm not sure why it is in this moment in history we find ourselves with so many resources like with so much knowledge with with so many things available to us and yet preferring the simplicity and over simplicity right this the same as in politics right like that that we're not saying here is a left-leaning person with a mix of views some of which aren't what I expected um we're just saying, "Hey, you're doing it wrong." And that was one of the things I noticed in the book, Ben, was like, you know, you you talk about this professor saying to you, "Gay people shouldn't want to get married." And you were kind of like, "Um, excuse me." And and so, right, and like this is a very liberal professor. I should you can add some more context to this, right? But like the professor is saying gay people shouldn't want to get married. That's not their project. And you're like, "Excuse me." Um, but that tendency to like tell people they are performing some role or category wrong.

[00:51:32]I I feel like we have massively overinvested in that type of behavior.

[00:51:38]And I think we should stop. Whenever I see it, it it kind of makes me go like, "Oh, you're you're going to tell me how to perform being a woman. You're going to tell this black man how to perform being a black man. We're gonna tell Ben how he should feel as a gay man." Like, what? M >> um yeah can you talk a little bit more about like being told your views on gay marriage?

[00:52:01]>> Yeah. Well, so you know, it was something that I was hugely naive to was the debates even within gay populations of there was have always been within gay population um uh not I mean radical factions or queer factions that were like that's assimilationist that you know that that that props up capitalism that that reinforces this this uh very exclusive marginalizing society that has discriminated against us and other minorities. And why the hell would you want to be a part of that? Like that is, you know, you're a fascist bootlicker. Like, you know, don't ask don't tell. Like, you want to serve in the military and go kill people for this, you know, imperial state?

[00:52:52]Like, you know, that that kind of thing.

[00:52:53]I mean really that's I say that you know in a kind of like uh way but that's really what people think and so um you know so there always was but yes I and I was kind of naive to that because I was involved in the marriage equality campaign in Maryland and and prior and I wasn't super super I was like vaguely political but again I write in the book like I pretty much just absorbed all of the what my liberal female friends were telling me and like what culture everything on the television like if it was a late night talk show host and they were like oh probably a Republican okay in my head I'm thinking I like this person I like the people that watch this show I like this celebrity that they just had on Republicans are evil okay like you know what I mean like it just becomes so so anyway I I when marriage equality and that campaign began Um, and I had met my now husband and so it was just kind of serendipitous like it was all kind of happening at the same time. Prior to that I was like I don't really have a desire to get married. I think it's an antiquated institution like you know I was came from divorced parents. I had you know I just saw it all around me and I didn't really understand the desire or the value of it or even and I also deep down like really didn't think that gay men were capable of like that kind of love cuz I had never really experienced it or felt it.

[00:54:20]I just felt I didn't know what I really thought, but I just thought it was kind of like h but sure for equality sake if gay people want to be able to marry absolutely hopefully that works out. And then when I met my husband I had a I was like oh I see this and I understand that.

[00:54:34]>> And so I got involved with that and and I really kind of was not aware of the radical factions within that the that that for years were like we don't want that you know like that's assimilationist. And then I became very aware of that when I got to Colombia and that kind of way of thinking because it was overwhelmingly the way of thinking on campus. And so with that experience, it was actually in my Islamic civil uh contemporary Islamic civilization class that I took my first semester at Colombia cuz I was like we have a xenophobe an Islamophobe in the White House because you know again when I came into this situation I'm like you know sign me up. I'm part of the resistance hashtagresist, you know, circle warrior, etc. And so I'm in this class and I'm like, I'm going to learn as much as I can. And and and one of the first lectures that he gave, Professor Dbashi was like, you know, kind of saying how, you know, gay people like there was this huge fight to to have marriage equality, but that shouldn't be gay people's political project. Like their political project should be like revolution because they are part of a marginalized class. like their their project is essentially and you know he didn't say this in in in these words specifically at least as as far as I can recall but it is kind of like you don't work your way into reforming what we've created or what's been created you tear it down and erect something >> new socialist utopia or whatever. You know what I mean? or like with like a touch of Islamism and like a touch of whatever, you know what I mean? Like I don't know whatever. I don't know what the vision is because no one really talks about it. It's just like tear down, tear down, tear down. So anyway, um uh so uh that's why so many people like you see mom Dani like you see all these stactions like immediately turning on him and because of him capitulating to the system and to whatever like whether it's you know um and it's like it's like well you know they anyway so uh that yeah so I'm kind of sitting there in class and listening and and being like and him and I'm being like Well, I wanted to I was tempted to raise my hand and just say I can understand that perspective if that's where you're coming from in your belief system, but there's also an argument to be made where if when I was a young person and I everybody's calling me the f-word and I have this huge religious guilt and I'm and I'm really struggling.

[00:57:14]If I knew that marriage was a poss like if it had just become part of at least an option for people like me, then I would have not felt like it. I would have if I understood that as a possibility of a future, then I would have in intrinsically known that well that means there must be other people like me >> and that means that society must recognize other people like me. So yeah, this kid's a jerk or these kids are jerks, but like do you know it would have been and they wouldn't have been as much of a jerk if they were like, "Yeah, there's just some my uncle's gay or my aunt's gay and like she has a wife or whatever." You know what I mean? Like it just would have become >> um and and I understand people's reactions to that who are conservative because they're like, "It's a slippery slope and like well if you're going to normalize this then you're going to normalize everything." D and it's like actually marriage was really actually a kind of fundamentally a conservative project. It it really does make gay people more you know just I mean it's done wonders for me. I've been married for 12 years or close to 12 years. Let's see 20 26 close to 12 years. and I, you know, we support each other and, you know, we're we're we've become more successful and we've built a life and we're contributing members of society and taxpayers and we follow the like we're just we're more functioning and better people because of this institution that we were allowed, you know, participation. So anyway, um yeah, just as a young person knowing like there were that that was a possibility or that this maybe this crush that I had wasn't evil >> because >> obviously the society recognizes that there are some males who are going to crush on other male people and they're going to have that exclusive attraction to other male people. That would have been hugely valuable.

[00:59:06]>> Yeah.

[00:59:08]everything you want about marriage, but like hey before you tear it all down and we all go up in flames, can we at least like just spend a little while like can I have few years being a part of this so I can participate like a >> I think I think too Ben like it's it's ironic that like he like why not ask a gay person what they think right and I think they they would agree right like I I think that is one of the things that like I I feel like your book does really well is say like there were there have been good things about the these different intellectual traditions that have said hey let's look at something from a different angle right like it's this the exact same thing with DEI initiatives right like there are very good things about saying like hey you have not recognized minority talent in education in the workplace because of bias how can we fix it right like there are these really powerful things And then we still have this human tendency, right, to just be like, "Oh, I'm gonna explain to you why you shouldn't want to be married." And it's like, that's a very complex issue for you, which you know in great depth because it's been your lived experience in reality. Um, and why is it so hard for us to uh to say, "Hey, you know what? It's probably more complicated than I thought. Maybe I should talk to somebody who has lived it." And how do we get the good pieces of that without arriving at this place of of kind of like insane conclusions, right? Where >> also sorry, go ahead. This is a I don't know how to summarize that into a question. Well, but I think it actually I mean again like you and I talk about sort of just like complexity broadly speaking, but I think Ben I think Ben's story about marriage I think points to like a couple really critical things which is that first of all like you can ask a gay person like how they think about marriage but like they don't speak for all gay people, right? Like gay people are not a monolith. Like women are not a monolith. like you know like like nobody should be speaking on behalf of like a single group identity group because like they are by nature like deeply pluralistic and diverse right so there's like there's that problem but then there's also just like the reality that like your attitude toward your sex and gender like your understanding of your own identity changes over your lifespan right like my my sort of like interaction with my identity as a woman was very different when I was like a single 20-year-old now I'm a mom of three girls and that has changed the way that I think about being a woman. It's ch it's like deepened it. It's it's complexified it if I can use that word like and so and and that's a beautiful thing, right? But like I think this is part of the and and this sort of points to Ben like like a little bit of like the concerns that you raised about like medicalization is like why do we assume that like the way that you are feeling or thinking about your own sort of relationship with your body when you're 12 is going to be the way that you are thinking about and relating to your body when you're 22. It would be bizarre if you were. That's not how human bodies work. Like that's not how human brains work. So it is like I just think like we're we're fundamentally like uncomfortable with complexity and so we just try to shove people into buckets and then like you know forget about it.

[01:02:22]But I think your your your own relationship with marriage I think shows like how complex that like people have complex views about their who they are and that's good >> 100%.

[01:02:35]>> You know yeah >> well yeah and I mean yeah go ahead.

[01:02:39]>> No no no go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say too, you know, if you wanted me to follow up on that, like you were saying, you know, earlier about and your work writing about medicalization and so on and and and and midwiffrey and everything like that. It's like I was thinking, you know, I know so many dransitioners who who are gay who, you know, whether they're male and they, you know, were on estrogen for years, they had bottom surgery, etc., And then they were kind of like, you know what, I'm just a gay man and I've been fighting this and um and see how hard it is for them to receive proper medical care. They go they go to their endocrinologist and endocrinologists are like, I don't really know. I've never dealt with this. Like you you don't have natural like you don't have your testes anymore. like you don't have you're not producing natural and I don't taking you just off of estro like you need to be on hormones and like your body has been starved for testosterone like that might explain your foggess and like your lethargy like all these things and like so I but I don't know what like I don't know I would so what I would recommend is go to the clinic where you had this done so dransition are forced to go back to the people that were like that okayed these things and said, "Yes, like you're not really a man." And then they have to go back and be like, "Actually," and they don't know because they didn't know what they were doing to begin with, you know? So, or or and this this kind of lost like in the mix. It's it's really um it's it's a it's a cohort of people and a population that we need a lot of people to do work on to be able to understand how to care for and treat them and and and and get them and keep them well because it's very it's like a DIY for them >> at at the moment. I mean, one individual I know who is a gay man who had lived as a woman for years, um, who was affirmed at 15 or 16, um, as as a as a trans girl. Um, uh, he's like goes to and he's like, I'm I'm male, you know, and they put in the chart um, transman.

[01:05:01]>> Oh, >> like he's like, no, I'm not a trans man.

[01:05:04]not a female who became a man. I They see it as like a next step in transition. Like, oh, he's transition.

[01:05:11]It's it's like no, he's just a male who was kind of, you know, led down this path of, you know, no, you really of of of this this misunderstanding that one can physically change their sex if they try hard enough, which is if they go through this surgery, this surgery, and take this estrogen every day, eventually it will happen. And it doesn't. And so you and then you become you have these very a lot of delotterious very you know bad effects from these whether they're surgeries and and and hormones and so on and and and it's just it's such a shame and um you know so that's a huge huge thing that people just aren't aware of these things this these issues are so complex >> and um and and people are really being harmed. confirmed and yes, people can absolutely argue that people are being helped um and if adult people want to to make those decisions for themselves a million%. But to deprive a young person of their natural growth into adulthood and to be able to experience that um is to me a human rights violation.

[01:06:30]>> Well, so we'd like to end now that we got we got all dark, but we like to end on a on a high note. What what is giving you hope right now? It can be it could be big or small. It could be personal or or public.

[01:06:42]>> What's giving me hope? Being off social media. I mean, I >> So, it's weird. But I'm like going through something right now because like I I don't know like I'm having this like I feel so much better and I well so I was in I do a summer share in Fire Island every summer with like a bunch of guys with a bunch of friends and and my husband comes down. It's it's like it's super spoiled. It's awesome. It's fun. and and so we were like by the pool this past week and you know there's a couple guys that are like still kind of believe in you know okay so I was I'm very hope I'm like oh no I'm hopeless like in terms of politics like the cuz I see people just digging in and digging in and it's like you're you guys are doing the wig work to just add nuance and and like but you know how it is like it's so hard cuz you just like you're like is anybody listening? You know, like you're like uh cuz it's just so frustrating and and it's like people are just not learning. People are still living like in 2017 America like when Trump first got into like have you not learned anything? Like have you there there's a huge population of people that has never done the reflective work on like why did people vote for Trump and like what am I missing here? They've just been like bad bad fascist fascist fascist fascist and it's like do a little bit of work here.

[01:08:16]Like that's a horrible place to live.

[01:08:18]It's so uncomfortable. Like are you happy right now? Like no. Like do get out of that for a second. Just go challenge yourself to be like, "Okay, go talk to a Trump voter >> and just talk to them about their kids, talk to them about dogs, talk to them about their work, not about politics.

[01:08:37]Just talk to them and see where you're both human beings and how like where it overlaps, where your humanity overlaps because I guarantee you it will, you know." Um, anyway, so it's just people doubling down, doubling down. And my friends were like, "God, you're like really, you don't have any hope at all."

[01:08:55]And I was like, >> um, I really don't like I don't because I feel like I just see people continuing to be so stubborn and and doubling and tripping tripling down and I'm afraid of what we're in what we have in store for us in terms of, >> you know, in two years or in three year whatever it is like you know if we're going to have what's it going to be? Are we going to get like an AOC in office where now we're all just like like >> right the opposite >> the opposite direction. I almost literally just fell out of my chair. But anyway, that's what it'll be like. Like, you know, opposite direction and we all just going to be like, "Oh, you know, it's just exhausting. It's like where are the the the the reasonable people, but I guess >> but that's what politics is. It's about sloganering and about just dumbing things down for and it's and these are really complex issues. We're intelligent humans. Like, give us a chance to really dig into these issues." Like, give people a chance to do that. Anyway, so they were like, "God, you're really hopeless or whatever." And I was like thinking about how and they were he was like my closest friends friend was like, "Well, why did you write your book then if like you don't have any hope? Like that's or why do you continue to talk about this? Like that's a sign that you do have." And I'm like, "That's really interesting you say that." And I think that in a lot of ways like my book was like I just put all of it into my book.

[01:10:15]Like I really I spent like three years writing and I was like this is I'm injecting all of this just like and I'm putting it out into the world and now has a lot and I hope people read it and I hope >> there it is.

[01:10:30]>> I hope people read it and I hope people you know at least get something from it.

[01:10:36]And that's what I did. So it's almost like I've like put all of it into that and into whatever work I do. if I have a conversation like this, like I feel hopeful right now like talking to you both. I enjoy this and I like it, but like I'm going to I'm going to sign up and be like and and maybe peek at Twitter and be like >> you're still arguing about that. Like I I I if you pull away from the constant for a minute, it's really funny because I like we'll jump back one and then it's like Anna Kasparian talking about like screaming at somebody like you don't think Israel owns this government and I'm like she was just screaming at that at some someone like four months ago or whatever like and she's today still screaming it at somebody like the same I'm like am I going to just is Ana Kasparian going to be screaming ing about Israel owning the United States for the like forever. Like is that is that where we are? Like is that and it's just exhausting and so it's just constant outrage outrage outrage and stuff like that. And so anyway, what's giving me hope is just connecting with people I love and that love me and and and that's what's giving me hope because I'm like I feel hum a little more human >> u and more more hopeful and positive because you know it really is about like what you're doing with yourself and in your life. Like I can do these big things like have the privilege of getting a book deal and writing a book and getting these ideas out or talking to you and being inviting onto a podcast and stuff like that. Those are huge privileges. But like for all of us, for most of us, for anyone on any given day, the best we can do is just like be kind to the person next to us or not even just be kind, but just be like respectful and like >> curious and and just do the try to do the next right thing, which honestly at the end of the day is pretty much what everybody's trying to do.

[01:12:29]>> Yeah. Like, you know, the even like the most nefarious seeming people, like the big, you know, they really they care about their kids and at night their kid comes in crying about something and their like heart hurts, you know what I mean? Or like they miss their mom or like they're I don't know. It's just we're all human and there's goodness and so and really I don't there's not necessarily people that a lot of people that wake up and say how am I going to screw over every like how am I going to be the worst person I can be today?

[01:13:09]>> They're really not >> Yeah.

[01:13:11]>> You know what I mean? Like >> they're kind of like okay >> and there are absolutely some people like that. And in a lot of ways, our attention economy rewards that.

[01:13:22]>> You know, you look at individuals that are like purposefully just so awful, you know, and espousing these horrible things, and are they really like that at their core? Probably not, but they're being rewarded for it.

[01:13:35]>> And so, of course, they're going to continue to to to to push that to push that out there. So that's what's giving me hope is is kind of pulling away for for a minute and kind of just trusting and relying that like the work that I do like I don't have to be constantly like h how can I cuz um there was I have what I call book privilege now which is like I for so long like I was like felt such an urgency to like say certain things and get things out like I'm like I know that I don't have all the answers but I have a valuable perspective here that I think could help people with this and like so now I have the privilege of at least I got it all out there in like a book form and and so I don't feel so much of that urgency anymore and it is such a relief like it's it's it's a it's cathartic to be able to put it out do that >> that's amazing >> so interesting >> well Ben this has been absolutely fantastic Laura hold the book up >> yes one more time >> so Ben's book which everyone should immediately head to Amazon to buy is gate Uh Ben also writes on Substack. Um and uh we will have links to that in the show notes. We will have links to book in the show notes. Um and uh we will also this uh if you came in late, this will be edited and it'll drop uh probably Monday morning. So um we'll tag Ben and all of that. And uh this was absolutely fantastic. Uh thank you so much for joining us, Ben.

[01:15:00]>> Thank you for having me. I loved it.

[01:15:01]Thank you.

[01:15:02]>> Thank you. Have a wonderful weekend. You too. Bye guys. Bye everyone.

[01:15:06]>> Bye. Bye.