The End of NATO? The West Is Splitting Over War and Empire | Interview With Werner Rügemer

Added: 2026-05-29

[00:00:00]The European Union is not not a state.

[00:00:03]It it it is a bureaucracy for capitalists for expanding uh capitalists in whole Europe or also then in Eastern Europe. But the expansion of European Union to Eastern Europe was in all cases in all states um only in the second line because all states in Eastern Europe first entered NATO.

[00:00:40]All all entered NATO first and only after membership in NATO they could enter also they could also be become member of the European Union.

[00:00:56]Hello and welcome to another one of my geopolitical economy interviews. A series in which I interview prominent intellectuals, scholars, politicians, journalists and public figures to illuminate the fastchanging political economy and geopolitical economy of our times. I'm Radhika Desai and you're watching Radhika Desai geopolitical economist. Please like this video, share it, subscribe to this channel, and if you can donate here on YouTube, on my Substack or on my Patreon, your donations help me keep my work freely accessible across all platforms.

[00:01:36]My interviewe today is Wer Rouge. Uh, welcome Ver.

[00:01:42]>> Yeah, many thanks Ranika for this uh invitation.

[00:01:47]>> Thank you so much for coming. Uh I think we're going to have a really exciting conversation. But let me introduce you first to our audience. Wner is a prolific left-wing German writer, uh a lecturer and intellectual. His work is, I think, best characterized as an expose of the dark side of capitalism, imperialism, and in particular their North Atlantic axis today and historically. He has written about Silicon Valley corruption, the corporate rontier profitering from uh uh uh uh from the privatizing utilities like water, financialization, the rating agencies, the European Union and many many other subjects. His latest book uh could not be more timely. It's entitled Fatal Friendship: How the United How the USA Conquered Europe uh first phase from World War I to World War II. It is an account on of the North Atlantic axis and how it was built.

[00:02:53]Today when the whole world is wondering what is wrong with this North Atlantic axis, why Europe is suicidally determined to destroy itself, why it is even determined to prosecute a war which is destroying it when the United States is no longer interested in it. It is important to investigate the long historical roots of the dysfunction of this relation. And WA you're going to guide us in this. Um, when in your book you characterize the United States as a singular state, as a state unlike any other. Now, of course, this may be seen as simply another version of US exceptionalism, but your uh uh argument is rather different and it is definitely not flattering to the United States. So could you please elaborate on how you see the US state and its world role since its 18th century formation and how it is different from other major capitalist countries particularly European countries.

[00:03:52]>> Yes. In this book, Fat and Friendship, I analyzed the uh characteristics of the state of the United States and um United States is a capitalist country. Yes. But with characteristics which are more extremist than all other capitalist countries. So for example, the United States have been founded as a slave state and in the next uh about six, seven denies, the United States expanded the slavery and uh expanded in uh all the new states with which they conquered in North America. Yeah. And also in the states they conquered from Mexico.

[00:04:56]And um this is and and uh after the end uh after the civil war, after the end of the traditional slavery, the United States, it means the companies, the banks um modernized slavery up to today in the United States and especially in the poor states around uh the world and uh no for example the iPhones of Apple are produced in India by very poor young women which are so uh stressed by the work that they are sick after three or four years there were then they must go away and uh Apple by his um uh factory uh deliver a Foxcon from Taiwan uh brings more new young women from other poor regions of India for example.

[00:06:12]And uh another characteristic of the United States is um that it declares itself as representative for democracy.

[00:06:24]But in the constitution there is nowhere mentioned democracy.

[00:06:32]So that what we will talk about after the so-called democracy of the United States is open to all dictatorships, fascist regimes in the 20th century up to today.

[00:06:52]And another characteristic of the United States is that um as only state uh it has no ministry of foreign affairs.

[00:07:06]But the United States from the beginning has a state department which means that the United States also for his expansion in North America, then in Latin America and then to Asia and to Europe and to the whole world today uh has for it itself the right of excess of this state to all other states to all other regions, states, companies, individuals and so all over the world only defined by the United States alone.

[00:07:53]And this is represented by this um department of state which is um which only the United States have such a construction >> that's really perhaps perhaps lately shortly um also extremists United States is in itself demonization.

[00:08:19]It is protected by God. And uh when the soldiers go to their uh wars all over the world, they are greeted blessed by God. So >> So no, that's fascinating. So what you're saying first of all is that the United States is particularly prone to the extremely harsh forms of labor exploitation thanks to its history of slavery which now reproduces elsewhere.

[00:08:51]Secondly that there is no constitutional bar uh on extreme forms of authoritarianism and even fascism although of course fascism can arise even if there is a constitutional bar but nevertheless it's important to note that there is no such thing and that the republic was originally founded as a republic not as a democracy. It never was a democracy. Indeed, many people argue that the United States can't be said to have become a democracy in this minimal sense of having one person, one vote until the 1970s after the Jim Crow laws were uh uh were abolished in this slave, you know, formerly slave owning South which had prevented so many black people from voting. So, this only happened after the civil rights movement. So, that's another really interesting point. And I find the third point especially fascinating and I have a follow-up question when you say that the state department is you know uh uh unique uh in this sense that uh you know it has um uh it that that it's the only country in the world that whose foreign ministry is called a state department. So when you say that, are you suggesting that the expansion of the United States um between 1776 and circa 1890 when it kind of reached its continental size? Uh that this was engineered by the state department. Uh is that what you're saying that this was organized by the state department?

[00:10:20]Yes, largely because um the state department has very uh good uh intensive relations to Wall Street traditionally and to the leading capitalists.

[00:10:40]So uh the wall street is um represented uh also globally uh by the state department and um for example during the second world war there have been differences.

[00:11:01]The Roosevelt government wanted not so directly support the fascist governments in Europe. But the state department with the globally going capitalists they wanted and they organized these uh supports. No, that that is really interesting because you know uh in my own work I have argued that the United States uh of course uh was essentially it saw itself as an empire. It was born in an age of empires. It saw itself as an empire. It exp continued to expand wherever it could easily. Obviously it was not so easy to go uh uh to take British North America or at least to take what was left of uh Mexico after they took Texas and much of California from it. But nevertheless, it continued to expand until it reached the Pacific shore. And since that time, it has seen itself as uh in a sense wanting to continue to expand abroad even though by this time the rest of the world had been divided up by other countries. So the state department as an external affairs ministry in so far as it's that it's sought to mold its relations with the rest of the world in such a way as to try to render much of the rest of the world as part of its own territory so that uh American business people, American corporations could uh have dealings with uh entities and you know would have access same access to the markets resources and investment opportunities in these foreign countries as it would have at home and that's always been the aim. So what you say makes a lot of sense to me. And of course you the the final point you made was that you know the that that the United States has this conviction that God is behind its expansion which is of course you know the uh uh uh Charles and Mary Beard the uh famous Marxist uh uh uh uh historians of the of the United States. they uh of course pointed out that they there was this practically religious belief in the US expansion doctrines like the industrialist thesis the manifest destiny and so on all of these underlay uh all that so that's really fascinating so now how do we go from you know here this kind of United States to the conquest of Europe which is the main theme of your book >> uh yes um there also is a very interesting uh difference uh between the government of the United States and the behavior of the Wall Street and the banks and the large companies.

[00:13:52]There is no identity.

[00:13:55]Uh so for example um the American president Vujo Wilson who has been um uh became president was uh saying the United States will never go into this war which is starting uh in Europe. And he said this um when this when the war started in 1914 and he said this in uh until 197 but in the same time from the first day of the world war one uh Wall Street and the big companies like United Steel and so they entered the war and they credited the allied um states like United Kingdom and France and Italy so that they could buy the arms uh of United Steel and so on and General Electric and so on and Dubo and Standard Oil and only at the end of the war the Wall Street said to her president. So please now also the state of United States must enter the war with the military so that we have a loser of the war who then must pay the credits which we gave to the allies.

[00:15:43]And so the in the last year, United States entered military also the war and um made the Germany the loser. And after under the guidance of FON, the Versailles peace conference decided Germany the loser must pay the reparations.

[00:16:11]Um so um uh but the poor Germany as loser had no money to pay the liberation the reparations. So Wall Street gave credits to the poor Germany so that they could pay pay the reparations to France and England and Italy so they could pay the credits to Wall Street. And you know what's really interesting as well is at the end of the first world war the UK uh Britain said to the Americans that you should forgive the war debts that we have incurred with you because you know when you fight a war together uh that's what people do you know uh Britain forgave uh uh uh the the the war debts of Austria at an earlier point you know on the same principle so they said you know because ultimately they they had not used the money to uh to produce anything. They had used the money to fight a war and this had only created not production but destruction. And of course John Maynard Kanes in his book on Versailles uh also said that you know he he he suggested that there should be a complete liquidation a a bonfire of all the mutual obligations so that you would start with a clean slate. Nobody would owe anybody anything. But the United States refused this and said, "No, we want you to to to to return our money. We we did not uh uh join the war as an ally. We joined the war as an associate." This is the word they used.

[00:17:47]And so you must pay us the money. And therefore then you know the Versail treaties always portrayed you know the whole what went wrong at Versailles is always portrayed as uh that the problem was these vengeful French and British they wanted you know Germany to pay the reparations etc. But the thing is they couldn't do otherwise because they were caught in a bind where they were being asked to repay uh uh loans that they couldn't. So the then so so the the it was the US insistence on repayment of war debt that essentially ensured that that Versailles would settle nothing and that there would be a second world war uh 20 years later. So uh and and and so so so to to to to to wrap up this point what I'm trying to say is that people forget that uh the US intervened in such a way not only as to prolong the war to profit from the war etc but ultimately if the US had not intervened the Europeans would have exhausted themselves much more quickly than they did with the US intervention. The US has profited from wars and it has made wars more likely.

[00:18:54]>> Yes. Uh but uh for the United States this uh uh the first financial and uh then military entrance into World War I was also only a step to go further after the war. And this is uh this was not only a war and then the war was uh at the end but it was for the United States for the companies and Wall Street it was only the first step to penetrate Western Europe more and more.

[00:19:33]So after the war, the United States leading companies um founded uh in the next 10 years about about 400 branches of uh the most important American companies only in Germany.

[00:20:01]But for example, the the newly um ascendant auto car maker Ford, he founded branches in about 10 European states starting in Italy with Mussolini and uh in Switzerland and in France and so and also in Germany.

[00:20:31]But also did International Harvester or General Motors or IBM, ITT. They um General Electric, they founded branches and uh partly they also bought uh parts of the shares of the leading companies in Europe in Germany. For example, General Electric uh made um itself as leading shareholder in the leading German electric company electric.

[00:21:16]No. And so the first world war with the um characteristic practices of reparations and so were have been also only a step to uh penetrating Europe um financially uh with companies, with banks, with branches of all types.

[00:21:46]Yeah, this is a fascinating part and of course uh I should mention that uh you know and you might be interested in reading my book geopolitical economy which is also translated into German by Mangrove and Farag. Um anyway in this book I actually show how you know uh the the real foundation of all these theories about US hegemony is not any kind of analysis of what's happening in the world. You know is the US really hgemonic? It's really putting an ambition that the United States started nursing as early as the first decade of the of the 20th century uh to essentially replace Britain as the major power, the dominant power, the hegemonic power or as they put it at that time the managing segment of the world economy.

[00:22:36]So they had already decided on this and and and in many ways from the founding of the Federal Reserve in in in 1913 and the various movements that led up to it.

[00:22:46]So basically from the 1910s 1900s onwards from that decade onwards American actions were really geared towards this and naturally if you're going to dominate the rest of the world you have to make sure that these other powers with their enormous empires which they still had at at in 1914 should be disciplined and that's indeed what was their aim you know uh uh uh when when when they did so. Um anyway uh uh let me uh go on to another question which is you know that so uh uh you know in a certain sense the the the picture you are creating by talking about the United States conquering Europe presents a very different picture of the North Atlantic relationship than is normally seen. Normally people talk about you know there's NATO and you know the US and and and and the Europeans are allies but what you're saying is that the Europeans have effect had effectively been subordinated.

[00:23:42]So uh and and and you see um I guess to me uh today of course this subordination is not working very well.

[00:23:52]uh there are these differences you know for example if you consider the two main wars which are being fought right now Ukraine and Iran uh on these wars the US and and the Europeans find themselves on opposite sides so in that sense uh something is not right something is not working very well plus of course the Europeans are as I was saying earlier uh in the since the beginning of the Ukraine war the Europeans have engaged in practically suicidal behavior by abandoning their very uh uh uh uh I think advantageous um uh energy relationship with Russia and replacing it with a bogey of Russian aggression which is a complete bogey. So if you can basically comment on you know and and and sorry so so the what I'm getting at is that I think that as this relationship deteriorates as I think it is deteriorating uh I think the tipping point will come when European leading European politicians states people intellectuals start talking about how in during you know during the world wars and then in the postc world war period uh essentially the way the US has acted is to subordinate it. Uh at the moment everything that the Europe uh uh Americans did is treated as if it was a part of an alliance or even advantageous to Europe. You know, America is the arsenal of democracy. The United States organized the Marshall Plan and that was good. And once all of these the reality of these lies gets exposed, you will that will be the point at which you will see the Europeans distancing themselves from the Americans. So could you comment on what these realities actually were and whether you think that the current crisis in the North Atlantic relationship might lead to Europe becoming more autonomous from the United States?

[00:25:50]>> No, this uh seems not uh the case. Uh it really uh because of the subordination of Europe of the European Union uh under the uh United States European politicians must speak.

[00:26:17]we want more sovereignity and so but in reality this is not the case because um after the second world war the United States uh advanced in their stepto-step penetration of Europe more than before and uh they made it firstly with the aid of this double grip of uh martial plant with the NATO. This was a double grip at the same time. And this is the typical American uh charact practice which is the the practices since it founding combining military with financial um expanding the state of United states, expanding the influence of the United States and expanding the capital presence of the United States in other regions in other states.

[00:27:40]So, Marshall planned with NATO was the first step after the second world war.

[00:27:49]But uh and it was intensified for example that also um the what I call the civil private army of the capitalists also entered Europe. It means McKini and the consultants and the United States, three large rating agencies and um the American law firms and so and um but um the very important next step which um leaded to a new form additional form of uh subordination under the United States was additionally about the the years around 2000 and then uh until this state the United Companies and Banks had only branches in Europe But uh from about uh the years around 2000 on the newly ascendant uh large capitalist organizers like hedge funds and private equity funds and especially leading uh Black Rockck and Bangward and State Street and Wellington Capital Found and so on a day additionally bought the leading sharehold shares in the leading companies and banks in Europe.

[00:29:44]So that today in all important European states including Switzerland uh Black Rockck and uh Wangad and say are the leading shareholders of the leading companies and banks.

[00:30:05]>> That is really fascinating. Do you think that that is the reality that lay behind uh Switzerland abandoning neutrality in recent years and uh Finland and uh Sweden joining NATO and so on?

[00:30:20]>> Yes. But uh as I uh documented in the book Fatal Friendship, the Switzerland during the Second World War was no more neutral. Switzerland uh as financial osesis uh gave uh possibilities for German uh companies to hide uh operations and in the same time Switzerland gave the opportunity to American companies and banks um and also for the newly uh founded secret service of the World War II of the United States. It means the office of strategic services.

[00:31:16]>> Yes. OSS. Yes.

[00:31:17]>> OSS. And very important, it was not founded by the state of the United States, by the government, but by the two leading law uh lawyers of Wall Street. It means uh William Donovan and Alan Dallas. They founded the American Secret Service for the World War II and they placed it in Switzerland.

[00:31:53]Huh.

[00:31:53]>> Interesting.

[00:31:55]And and the intention was of this secret service founded and led by Wall Street lawyers to um support the business of American banks and uh companies for Hitler Germany. So that that's of course then this leads us of course I mean I think the Swiss would say that since they were dealing with all sides they were neutral but let's leave that aside but but but this is this leads us directly into the uh implication of uh the Americans and generally speaking western countries in the rise of fascism uh right up until the second world war and possibly even during it. Maybe you can comment on that.

[00:32:45]>> Yeah. Uh uh yes. Um the the Switzerland was also in this uh case not neutral because um uh in the bank for international settlement which has been founded also by Wall Street in Switzerland in this time and which helped uh finance Hitler Germany. Uh this was not neutral because um in the board of the bank for international settlement led by Wall Street were present all um allied states like Great Britain and France and so on, but also all fascist states like Japan and Germany and Italy and so and not the Soviet Union was not represented.

[00:33:50]And uh I think this was one of these steps of the United States to penetrate more and more um Europe. also this important neutral state, Switzerland and which uh is um important also up to uh today that um the main enemies defined by the United States are becoming also the main enemies of the European states.

[00:34:32]So the the the enemy after second world war for the United States was uh Russia, Soviet Union and the NATO members and Marshall Plan receptors. they took part of this aggression against Russia. today uh Russia and and the Soviet Union and the other socialist states. But uh after the end of Soviet Union this continued in direction to Russia and um uh as uh has been published by the former uh counselor of many American presidents in his book uh in 19 20 um no 197 97 97 in his book the so the only >> grand chess board I think.

[00:35:50]>> Yes.

[00:35:51]>> Yeah. Um he said uh United States need for their perspective existence as only superpower. They need uh the grip to whole oasia from Lisabon to Vladivosto.

[00:36:16]Not only Russia but United States needs whole Europe from Lisabon and with Oasia to with Russia today with um until Vladivosto and as Pinski also wrote then in the same context in the same book the first state which must be prepared for this grip also to Russia is the Ukraine.

[00:36:52]And so American agencies like OS8 and National Endowment for Democracy and other uh public uh private foundations like Open Society Foundation and so on from the United States. They prepared 30 years long the Ukraine for this war against Russia accompanied by the eastern expansion of NATO.

[00:37:27]>> That's uh that and of course uh speaking of eastern expansion, it wasn't just NATO that expanded east eastwards. The European Union expanded eastward as well. You can say something about >> Europe's role in the con American conquest of Europe. Sorry, I mean the European Union's role Yeah.

[00:37:46]>> in the American conquest of Europe.

[00:37:49]>> The European Union is uh non has no uh is not not a state. It it it is a bureaucracy for capitalists for expanding uh capitalists in whole Europe or also then in Eastern Europe. But the expansion of European Union to Eastern Europe was in all cases in all states um only in the second line because all states in Eastern Europe first entered NATO.

[00:38:38]All all entered NATO first and only after membership in NATO they could enter also they could also be become member of the European Union.

[00:38:55]This is a very simple but strong example for the subordination of European Union under the guo strategy of the United States.

[00:39:08]>> Yeah. And this is fascinating because you know uh and and I want you to say a little bit more because earlier you were talking about how um the the American capital has gone from establishing branch plants in Europe to essentially acquiring European companies. And this I find very interesting because um you know normally when people are trying to explain why Europe is taking such a suicidal uh course uh especially since um 2022 uh and you know has accepted the blowing up of the Nordstream pipeline uh and all these sorts of things. Um uh and and when when you people are trying to explain this, they basically refer to the fact that the current generation of European leaders have been very much part of that circuit of you know American think tanks and uh you know various appointments. You know most of them have spent a bit of time in the US.

[00:40:08]So in a certain sense they have been groomed by the Americans to take power in Europe and then do Europe's bidding.

[00:40:15]But I think what you're saying is that the connection goes even deeper and has to do with the ownership of capital in Europe today. So if you can please talk a little bit more about that and perhaps also you know uh particularly in Germany you know MS is of course a former Black Rockck executive uh and many people would argue that had Angela Merkel still remain chancellor we wouldn't have this kind of a war you know we would have this kind of suicidal behavior on the part of Europe if you can please elaborate on that and maybe you don't agree but if you in any case comment on it Yes. Um uh you mention uh the longtime German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

[00:41:04]Um yes. Uh she supported that German industry had the Russian oil and gas. Yes. Okay. But um the uh Americans in this time in during her chancellorship prepared the next step.

[00:41:34]And it was uh during the chancellorship of Angela Merkel that the actual chancellor Friedri Mer was already working for American new investors and law firms.

[00:41:55]uh Fritm entered um as law maker the in 2005 >> he became a member of the Bundistag.

[00:42:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. until he he he was leading the Christian party as uh the government party and then he went out and in 20 in 2005 he entered immediately um the American law firm Mayor Brown.

[00:42:33]Mhm.

[00:42:34]>> Mayor Brown had opened a new branch in Germany in Bizelor and uh consulted the newly entering American investors, private equity investors buying German middleclass companies and >> middle companies. So sorry I just to explain to our there's an expression German expression middle. So they are the sort of middle level of German companies generally regarded as being responsible for the dynamism of >> German. Yeah. Yeah. So uh he helped Fritz helped that American investors could buy and restructure and uh stopping workplaces and so on. uh but from uh 2016 on Friedrich Meltz was in the same time also uh the chief of the Black Rockck Germany branch.

[00:43:42]And in this uh function he uh consulted uh Black Rockck to became majority shareholder in Germany. And in this time he corresponded also with the German government under Angela Merkel and Friedriz in this time arranged meetings of the Black Rockck Germany from New York Lawrence with the finance ministers of the Merkel government.

[00:44:25]so that um Blackhawk, Vanguard and State Street could enter without public discussion as now leading shareholders to Germany.

[00:44:40]So uh this was uh and and the the function of Agela Merkel was not to speak about she didn't speak about but she supported it by the government >> and uh so this um is so is is logically that after uh she uh finished uh uh being chancellor.

[00:45:13]Then the black rock represent representative Peter Mz became his follower and is now the uh chancellor of Germany. And by this he must support or he does it without any ordinance and so but in really he does it. So we have um a typical American uh economy now in Germany. You have the leading about 200 companies with the Black Rockck shareholders and they have very good business. They have no crisis. they have uh profits and Bonnie and so but the rest of the economy the middleand and so and and the the workers and so they have the crisis.

[00:46:29]Yeah. the the the the the large companies they um they the they close uh departments, they go with new branches to United States and they uh get large state support in the United States and so on.

[00:46:56]>> Yeah, that's interesting. Sorry.

[00:46:59]finish.

[00:47:01]>> No. Uh so so we have a uh separated economy. We have the leading two 300 companies with the Black Rockck uh shareholders.

[00:47:14]uh no crisis, good profits globally acting and and you have the the the large majority of the economy and of the workers uh who are in crisis.

[00:47:31]>> Interesting. Now we should probably wind this conversation down but I have a couple of important questions. Uh so uh the first is that um how what what is the role that China is playing in all of this if you can say because you know obviously uh yeah let let me not elaborate. I I think you know what I mean.

[00:47:56]>> Uh yes um it was the American President Barack Obama. he uh made this so-called pie vote to Asia and this was the not so clear but in a practice very clear declaration that now the people's republic of China is the main enemy of the United States.

[00:48:27]>> Yes. What I mean is will Europe uh look to will Europe create closer relations with China?

[00:48:34]>> Yes. Uh this uh uh when the United States uh after um the visits of President Nixon and Kissinger in China, uh American companies and managers and entered China and so and also European, German companies, car makers like Volkswagen, Daimler Benz, Mercedes, BMW, all they went to China and had their profits there. But um uh this uh came to a rel relative end not a absolute end with the um good leveraging of working remuneration in China.

[00:49:45]China was the only state with steadily leveraging V work remunerations and so >> do you mean you mean rising wages?

[00:49:59]Sorry, you were using rising wages.

[00:50:01]>> Yeah. So in China there there were wages were rising. Yeah. Okay.

[00:50:06]>> Yes. Yes. And um therefore uh especially the American digital companies like Apple and so which were very present in China uh since about 10 years. they uh try to get out of China and to enter India and Thailand and Vietnam and uh so and um but the main companies of Germany for example and and other French great companies are still present in China and they want to to continue >> because uh in China is so many money from the majority of people um which have more money to buy cars and so on uh as they have in France or Germany.

[00:51:15]And and this is uh a very important and is interesting uh conflict now between uh Europe the the leading states in Europe, England, France, Germany with the United States.

[00:51:35]The United States want declare China is the main enemy. But uh also Mr. Trump says yes it's the main enemy they are rising they are rich and so but they are now too strong we cannot >> um make war with them now this is not possible they are too strong militarily technologally technologally economically so we must make the smaller wars with the correspondence of China, with Venezuela, uh with Iran and uh so on and uh but I think this is the main geopolitical conflict which plays on all continents now in all states.

[00:52:40]how to continue to cooperate with China or to stop it partially and for the main companies in Europe going with with brand new branches to the United States.

[00:53:02]But uh for the for the majority of the not so large uh uh economy companies, the cooperation with China and with these formats like bricks and uh SEO and APEC and so the cooperation with this also ascending uh cooperation partners of China.

[00:53:37]Um this cooperation is the main question for the best friends of the United States.

[00:53:52]um which are damaged by the large um uh investors like Black Black Rockck. And uh but for the uh majority of economy and for the people cooperation with China and within this cooperation strategies like bricks, this would for the majority be better. And this is the uh the the fight which is going on in uh Europe. I think also in Japan, in South Korea, in Taiwan and Australia.

[00:54:39]>> That's yeah, that's fascinating. I I think we should probably end it there.

[00:54:43]Although I had a further question, but I'm sure we'll have you back. This is a fascinating set of subjects and its relevance is not going to go away. So uh thank you very much for coming and and doing this interview with me. I hope uh our audience liked it. And folks if you did please like this video, subscribe to this channel, share this video and if you can donate. Uh for now I will say goodbye until next time. Thank you very much.

[00:55:13]>> Yes Rika. I thank you very much and I hope for next