The Democratic Party fundamentally refuses to allow left-center social democrats like Bernie Sanders to gain power, and the 'vote blue no matter who' mentality serves as a shield preventing substantive debate about why Democrats refuse to adopt enormously popular policies like Medicare for All, taxing the rich, and ending arms to Israel. This systemic resistance means that progressive voters who support Democratic candidates are essentially supporting a party that prioritizes corporate interests over working-class people, making the two-party system function as a single party that drives society toward a cliff.
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Dems Support Tucker Carlson & The Demise Of Bernie’s Movement! – Full Interview w/ Briahna Joy GrayAdded:
Democrats and the Republicans are both driving in a car towards a cliff.
>> Yeah.
>> The Republicans are going 100 miles an hour and the Democrats are going 98 miles an hour.
>> Sure.
>> They're both going over the cliff.
>> Yeah.
>> And >> yeah, I think that's a good analogy. We have an organization like our Revolution endorsing a literal billionaire in the uh governor's race in California.
>> Tommy Styer, who made his money in private prisons.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's very exciting to bring on uh Briana Joy Gray, political commentator, lawyer, author, >> who served as the national press secretary for Bernie Sanders 2020 presidential campaign. What an eyeopening campaign that was.
>> She's agree more.
>> I couldn't agree more. Harvard University, Harvard Law School graduate.
She's currently the host of the Bad Faith podcast and a contributing editor for current affairs, having previously worked as a senior political editor at the Intercept and co-hosting Rising Rising on the Hill until she was very unceremoniously let go for telling the truth. Welcome to the show, Brianna Joy Gray. Hi, Briana.
>> Hi, Jimmy. Thanks for having me.
>> So, it's great to see you. What is the thing you learned the most about the Bernie Sanders campaign in 2020?
>> O um it's funny. People will characterize me sometimes as being some combination of a doomer accelerationist or um and acting in bad faith or somehow overly cynical. But I feel like I earned my uh I don't even know if I would call it cynicism, but my lack of confidence in the Democratic party the hard way uh by giving a fullthroated faithful effort to do the thing of working inside the system by giving up a legal career, a job in journalism that I really loved to go I was recruited by the Bernie campaign to go and work for it. And I saw up close the extent to which the Democratic party absolutely refuses to let anybody even vaguely left center social democrat like Bernie Sanders get anywhere close to power. And I think between that experience and then watching what Biden did with his first two years in office when he had the trifect trifecta or more accurately what he didn't do when he had the trifecta and how it became an entire administration of making excuses for why Democrats just couldn't do any of the enormously popular things that the people wanted him to do. followed by Donald Trump, of course, managing to do with no majoritarian support and without congressional um uh uh support, passing everything that he's ever dreamed of, I think was really the the the final nail in the coffin of having absolutely no confidence that entreism was going to change the country in the ways that it needed to be changed.
>> What do you mean by entreism?
people who believe that you can sort of elect enough progressives within the Democratic Party and work within the Democratic Party as socialists or Democratic socialists or economic populists or whatever you are that is um fundamentally in opposition to the corporate pro-war duopoly to change that duopoly for the good to break the corporate control over these parties. I I would love to be proven wrong any day now, but I am not confident that that is a possible route to change.
>> So, which brings us to uh AOC?
>> Um, now I I was the first show to bring AOC on >> after Bernie Sanders uh was cheated in the 2016 election. And that that's not hyperbole. Everybody admitted it in including Elizabeth Warren and um uh now I'm blanking on her name who wrote a book. She was the DNC chairwoman >> Donna Brazil put it in her own book >> that they cheated in the 2016 election.
They went on to cheat in the 2020 election. Bernie Sanders the same guy.
Um and then in 2024 they didn't even bother to have a primary.
So, so for the last three presidential election cycles, the Democrats have been the most undemocratic political party in the world. And not only that, but they kick off third parties off any ballot where they might be a threat. So the this idea that Trump is a fascist or that fascism is outside the Democratic party or that the Democratic Party is the antidote to fascism or corporatism or oligarchy is the biggest joke. So when I would see Bernie Sanders and AOC doing their no oligarch tour, it was all a scop because they didn't say a goddamn word about it when Joe Biden was president and they didn't say a word about it any other time.
>> Yeah, that was that was frustrating to watch for a couple reasons. One, because frankly what AOC and Bernie was doing was very popular, right? They were they were drawing these huge crowds. They were they were helping the Democratic party >> helping. I was frustrated at them because like to your point, Jimmy, they were only calling out one side of the dual. I mean, maybe that's a little unfair there. They were and certainly Bernie Sanders has acknowledged the ways that the Democratic Party is captured and that we live in an oligarchy and all of those things, but the the point the purpose of those rallies was to gen up support for the Democratic Party and funnel people back into the Democratic Party.
There was criticism for the from the left on that score, but at the same time, the Democratic party wasn't even thankful to them for what they were doing. And they were getting all this weird backlash for the very party that they were shoring up at the same time.
And from my perspective, it's like, how much more evidence do you need that you're working against your own interest and that you're swimming upstream unnecessarily? If you're able to turn out all of these people who are so disgusted with corporate capture, then you AOC and Bernie should be directing those people to starting a new party. I mean, look at the success the Greens have just had in the UK. That's the kind of energy that could be harvested by someone as popular as ASC and Bernie if they had any interest in doing so.
>> Now, you know Bernie Sanders better than I. Bernie would never even talk to me personally or come on my show because >> well same >> no no nobody wants to be uh challenged from the left and they don't instead of engaging with you on the left that that what they always do if you're to the left of a Democrat or anybody they will first uh they'll first dismiss you and then discredit you and then smear you and then maybe they'll take on your argument but that never happens. So that's all they do. And and Bernie Sanders just ignored me >> and he wouldn't come on my show, but he would have his wife send me mean DMs on Twitter >> um because because he's a coward. And so why do you think that Bernie Sanders won't do exactly what you just said? Why won't he actually create a party? He So, one of the most dis heartbreaking things for me was in 2016 to see to walk into Philadelphia at the Democratic National Convention and see half that stadium screaming to overthrow the corporate oligarchs that were running the Democratic Party and supporting Bernie Sanders. He had at least half the party, half the party inside that hall. And then the next time they had a convention was in 2024 even though they didn't have a primary and not one person said anything. It was like I walked into a Steepford Wives convention and they didn't even bother.
They didn't even mind that they didn't have a primary. Everybody was in lock step. I'm like half the party that Bernie had the last time they had a convention. Where are those people?
Where are those people? Briana?
>> Yeah. I I I don't know. And and there's obviously the same speculation that everyone's been, you know, talking about since 2016 or since 2020 as to what's motivating Bernie Sanders and, you know, there's, you know, this maybe apocryphal conversation that happened where he said he didn't want to end up like Ralph Nater. I think Chris Hedges has talked about this. I I can't speak to that. I don't have any insider knowledge on that. Um, I do know and I want to credit how much enormous how much the enormous volume of pressure that is on people to get in line. I can only imagine that that pressure might even extend beyond the legal realm into all kinds of threats. And if that's the case, then to me that is emblematic of what we're up against and why we can't capitulate. And I know that sounds maybe like I'm playing fast and loose with other people's lives and safeties and livelihoods and things, but there are a lot of people who have a lot less than Bernie Sanders or some of these other affluent established public figures who have been willing to lose careers and have been willing to be marginalized because we believed in the kinds of things that Bernie was advocating for in 2016 and 2020 for whom ideas like 68,000 people die a year from a lack of health insurance were an abstractions.
But we're putting a number on, you know, a silent mass murder, you know, a silent holocaust of individuals whose lives are being lost on a regular basis, but are just grandfathered into just that's how the way works and that's what America is. Um, and it is frustrating to me as someone who was anonymous in 2016. I was just an attorney still.
um but who felt so motivated by that movement to make a career change and to want to sort of devote my professional life to this. To see the person who motivated so many people seem sort of comfortable with what has happened to his movement so far. So much so that we have an organization like our revolution endorsing a literal billionaire in the uh governor's race in California. Tommy Styer who made his money in private prisons.
>> Yep.
>> And so now the Bernie Our Revolution people are supporting a billion. And the irony of that is not lost on me, but it's certainly lost on them. It >> It's very confusing. And look, it's a it's a jungle primary. It's two pass, you know, first two pass the post. So even if you had a weird sort of um we can't let the Republicans win attitude in California, an organization like that has the possibility to try to at least platform and boost someone like Butch wear who's running in the Green Party and to say something like okay do top two do do sty um right and where you could have given more voice and amplified the wear campaign prior to this point so that now you don't have the built-in excuse of oh well he's not polling as well. Well, of course not. He's been shut out of the the debates. He's been kicked off the ballot by the Democratic party. All of these things have happened and the folks with the biggest platforms never use them to actually support the party that wouldn't come after you and wouldn't try to kick you off the ballot and wouldn't try to run Zionist uh uh candidates against you to get you out of office. And for some reason all there's so much um antagonism from even a lot of the progressives on the left toward the Green Party that doesn't exist for the Democratic party no matter how much harm it does to the progressives among its ranks.
What do you So what do you say to people who uh again the the big mistake that dem people like uh our revolution, people like people who call themselves progressives, people who call themselves Democrats, what they fall into the trap of pretending their enemy is their neighbor, whether it be white supremacists or Nazis or whatever it is.
and and or Trumpers or whatever. They pretend that they're the enemy instead of the people the working class that they're supposed to unite with against the oligarchs.
It's amazing to and so they'll do things like this. You know, people didn't so they'll I see it all over Hollywood.
This is where I live. And these people think they're good people because they vote Democrat and they're liberals, but they're not liberals. They're actually authoritarian fascists.
And uh what they'll say, they'll disparage half the country by saying, "Oh, those idiots who voted for Trump, how did you not see he was the biggest con man coming? Oh, you're so stupid.
You ruined our country." And what I say back to them, and I'm interested to see what you say. What I say back to them is, well, you're pretending like voting for Kla Harris, who was in the middle of doing a genocide, who forced experimental medical treatments on people or they couldn't go to work, uh, who crushed a railroad you worker strike and didn't bother to have who who rigged three elections in a row. Talk about fascist in a row. Somehow voting for a genocider, you are the moral superior of nobody. And at least Donald Trump was giving them the lip service and saying that he would do the things that they wanted. He didn't. Of course he didn't do it. But Kla Harris wouldn't even lie to them. They wouldn't even do that. So it's not like they had a choice because the Democratic party made sure they didn't have a choice to the point where they cheated Bernie twice and the third time they didn't even bother to have one. So it drives me crazy to hear people say that. And I'd like to remind them they're the moral superior of no one. you supported genocide or you're a garbage person. What do you say?
>> Yeah. Well, I say first and foremost, white supremacy is a problem. Part of why we're so frustrated with what's going on in Gaza and Israel's genocide is that they have an expectation and have historically had an expectation that we should allow, we should look the other way. We should fund what they do to Palestinians on the basis that Israeli lives are worth more because they are not Arab, because they are white, because they are Jewish, whatever the rationale, because God told them X, Y, and Z and their CH, whatever the rationale, that kind of ethnosremacy is exactly what has enabled and has made has allowed the world to make sense of uh the occupation in Palestine for for so many years. I think what has happened what what's the problem is is there has been a fundamental m misdiagnosis of what motivated the Trump the MAGA movement and what has caused the Democratic party to not be successful even though it ostensibly supports so many populist uh policies right and I say ostensibly heavy on the ostensibly because when they're in power they have all kinds of strategies to avoid actually being accountable to these things that they say that they actually support The problem is that while of course we live in a country that's what like 60 years out of Jim Crow um where the voting rights was just appealed repealed where you know the to deny the existence of doue racism in the United States of America that was founded with slavery being its major economic engine for the first half of its lifetime would be absurd. The question is why the MAGA movement in particular took wing in 2016. And the real thing that was motivating it because racism has already always existed and polit politicians have weaponized race and all kinds of ways to get people on their side.
MAGA took off the same reason that Bernie took off because there was an appetite for economic populism in the wake of the uh financial crisis and the bailout that disproportionately went to bail out the banks and not homeowners.
People seeing decreased standards of living. Millennials coming to adulthood being the first generation that did worse off economically than their parents. Inflationary crises in the areas of education, fuel costs, housing, food, etc. that were exacerbated by the pandemic and the supply chain issues that came after that. And people were looking for and continued to look for someone who was going to tell the truth about the ways that the system is fundamentally broken and has been poorly stewarded by both parties. When Trump came along, he was not embraced by the Republican party. People are kind of memory hold that, right? He won the primary in 2016 with a minority Republican votes and if they had rank choice voting, he never would have won.
He won with like 30% of the vote. But what he did was capitalize on a thirst for someone who was an outsider who was willing to criticize the establishment establishment. Now, I would argue that he very quickly became substant by the establishment because just like I'm saying about AOC and Bernie, once you're in there, the party takes over you. You don't take over the party. And that's how we get a Donald Trump that's litigating uh a war with Iran and all these other unpopular interventionist policies that he said he would never pursue. But at the end of the day, if we're just talking strategically, what was appealing to people was his outsider status and his willingness to to tell the truth about the duopoly. But even though that was the case, Democrats only framed interest in him in race racial terms. Yes. Ignoring that as racist as people can be, the racism didn't stop the Obama to Trump voter for voting for Obama. So racism wasn't the but for factor. and refusing to acknowledge that and engage with that has made Democratic attempts at being a resistance party impotent for the last 10 years.
>> You know that a lot of Bernie voters after he was cheated and did nothing with his movement. He did nothing. Just like Barack Obama after he got elected, he disbanded his movement. So did Bernie Sanders pretty much. He did nothing. He asked them to do nothing. He made no demand for his endorsement of the Democratic Party. He did nothing.
He hang he hung those people out to dry and they had nowhere to go and so a lot of those Bernie voters went and voted for Trump. You were aware of that, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. There the I mean there was a Trump to there was a Obama to Trump and Bernie to Trump and Trump to I mean this is what we're saying when we're talking about the allure that kind of outsider populism holds. It is the same reason why I I've been flamed for this in the last week. I don't know if you've noticed, Jimmy, but it's true. I know >> I know more than one I'll put it that way. I know more than one Bernie voter people who've been very deeply involved in the Bernie movement. This is not me, but people I've spoken to who have said that they would happily vote for Tucker Carlson over a sort of centrist Democratic candidate for exactly that reason. because they're pissed off at Democrats who began this genocide, who have funded this genocide, who have not really in any meaningful way resisted or distanced themselves from it, that were willing to lose an election in order to continue to bear hug Israel. Um, and whatever you think of the logic of that, that's obviously a real risk that the Democrats face. And I think it's very telling that they would rather beat up on me for trying to warn them as to what's coming down the pike than actually do something about it and stand by their morals and values and actually distance themselves from Israel in a meaningful way.
>> Well, isn't that the problem with our two-party system that it it it brainwashes people into a into thinking that there's actually two parties?
There's a uni party, there's one party, and when the Democrats get in power, they do the exact thing that the Republicans would do. They crush unions.
They fund wars. They keep us away from health care. Uh that it's it's it's it's, you know, and we're left fighting around the edges on stuff like, you know, bathrooms and and and trans women in sports.
>> Very intentionally. Very intentionally.
Both parties are happy if we're fighting a culture war because then neither has to be responsible for shifting the economics in a country in a way that redistributes wealth from the top to the bottom. They can make us all forget about taxing the rich and preventing them from doing insider trading and Medicare for all and raising the minimum wage that hasn't been raised since 2009 >> if we're talking about some of these um cultural issues that wouldn't even rank in the public consciousness if they didn't stick them in our public consciousness.
>> It drives me as crazy as it does you.
And you know, you've taken a a beating uh for telling the truth about the Democratic party, which is what Bernie Sanders got popular for, which is the irony of all irony.
Uh again, I don't know what happened to those people, half the party. It was literally half the party. He probably actually would have won that that that primary if it was fair. He came very close to doing it even though it was rigged against him. So, half the Democratic primary voters wanted change in 2016 and they Where are those people?
Do you have any idea? I I know I already asked you this once, but >> I think they're still out there. Um I think Well, I I'm curious what you think about this. Do you think we're going to get a Tucker Carlson candidacy or a um a Massie candidacy given that he's just lost his race? Uh, I think a lot of them, frankly, especially if they're Massie, because I think I think Massie has a less um uh less sort of complicated um history in the public sphere and might be able to pull more votes from the from the left than Tucker Carlson. But I do think that there is a lane wide open for a sort of libertarian, like socially libertarian, economically populist candidate. I mean there's a like a John Oafy version of that but that has sort of proven its willingness to stand up to Israel. It is remarkable what a motiv motivating issue Israel in particular has become what kind of a litmus test it's become and it's a litmus test that most candidates overwhelmingly are failing. So any any 2028 candidate that is willing to demonstrate that it's willing to take a loss over Israel as Massie has obviously just done last night I think has a lot of cred credibility with the public. I mean, do you think that do you think that a lot of Bernie voters would be excited about that uh potential if they're confronted with like uh Gavin Newsome or JB Pritsker or AOC as the alternative on one side and an establishment Republican like a JD Vance or Marco Rubio on the other side?
>> Uh well, I think that's obvious that that would work and that's why there is such a big push back against you uh making that statement. Uh just warning them that this is was this could happen.
this is coming.
>> You're just saying this is you're just you're you're not advocating anything.
You're just saying it and that's so that's all you know uh um so I don't know if I learned this from you or if I heard you say it recently, but people don't realize that people are desperate in the United States. Half the country can't afford a $500 emergency.
70 to 80% of workers live paycheck to paycheck. People still go bankrupt when they get sick. people the next the last this new generation can't afford a house. Uh they're all their jobs are going to be taking away AI. They're booing speakers from coast to coast because they know they're going to be saddled with mountains of debt. Debt that you cannot get rid of in bankruptcy.
>> Thanks Joe Biden.
>> Joe thanks to Joe Biden and the Democrats >> and they don't have a job to pay for it.
>> Yep. and that Donald Trump made wild gains with the people who made $50,000 or less. Black people who made $50,000 or less, Hispanics who made $50,000 or less, women who made $50,000. Democrats lost all those people, the only group, the only demographic that the that the Democrats actually increased in their vote in 2024, it was people who made over $100,000.
They're the ones who are propping up and voting for the Democrats in 2024.
Everybody else turned to Donald Trump, including Hispanics. Almost half the Hispanics voted for Donald Trump.
>> Yeah. Well, go ahead.
>> So, I I just pe people, this this all comes back down to economics. And they don't want you to focus on economics.
They want you to focus on your neighbors a racist. They want you to focus on your neighbors a homophobe. They want to focus on your neighbors a transphobe.
They want you to focus on the every other thing except economic. That's why >> I mean they're not even talking about that anymore to be honest. I don't even know what the Democratic party is talking about other than how much, you know, they hate Hassan I mean, look, it is true that all everything you said about Trump winning all of those demographics or increasing his share among all of those demographics, obviously not winning um the black vote, etc. But that is true because people tend to respond on the economy. It's also true that it's ricocheting back in the other direction because oil prices are high, things are bad, right? And I think the real tragedy is that this is the brinkmanship that the parties are able to play. Neither of them has to reliably >> deliver >> deliver. Exactly. Because one one's in control, things are going to get worse because things always get worse and the they're going to get blamed and the other party can win. They're things are going to get worse. they're going to be to blame and the other party can win and we don't while in the short term these parties are both winning, right? They get to, you know, throw the ball back and forth. What happens to everybody else? And and I just want to I want to put a fine point on this because there is a way that this constantly gets framed as but the Democratic party is better.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, if if I if I make the point about how corrupt and corporate the Democratic party is, what I'm told is the Republican party is worse. And I think that is such a that is that is a trap. I am happy to concede, especially in light of the excesses of the Trump 2 administration, right? Trump's doing poorly with Hispanics because of how brutal and horrific these uh ICE roundups and the shooting of civilians in the streets have been. Um, black voters are pissed off because of the Voting Rights Act uh uh being repealed in the Supreme Court. Um, and uh, you know, Donald Trump has caused a huge wave of black unemployment among black women because of the federal jobs in particular because of the federal jobs cuts. Black unemployment is super high.
Like none of the things that he used to brag about are true anymore and everybody's pissed off, right? So, I'm very happy to say that all of the horrible things that have happened, Renee Gooding, all of these things are obviously worse than under a Democratic administration. But being better than worse is simply not good enough. And I think it's rhetorically useful to make that concession so that no one can make a caricature out of the argument that's being made. The argument that's being made is that better than rock bottom is insufficient to meet the needs of the public. And it and playing that vote blue no matter who game enables the Democratic party from never having to reckon with the reality that they would be more electable not less more electable and morally better if they adopted these enormously popular economic populist policies including Medicare for all taxing the rich waging the minimum raising the minimum wage etc. And that they have absolutely no excuse for not doing so. None. Vote Blue, no matter who is, is a shield from having to have a substantive conversation about why the Democratic Party doesn't take the easy layup on Israel, on on uh data centers, on a lot of this stuff that nobody likes and supports. So, I don't have to sit here and have a debate with you about which is if you're having a debate about which party is better, if you're having a debate about whether AOC or Marjorie Taylor Green is a better advocate for Palestine, you've already lost the argument. That's not the point.
The point is that neither party is saying we should fully abandon funding for Israel because it it's in violation of international law and they are doing war crimes. Israel just kidnapped has in custody the prime minister of Ireland's sister and Benavir is going viral for for for um trotting hostages from a flotillaa through the public and abusing them in front of cameras.
We have the New York Times Kristoff, who you know is no bleeding heart uh with a watermelon emoji in his uh bio writing an opinion piece on all of the reported documented sexual abuses against Palestinian uh hostages in Israel. And that's gone mainstream, right? And yet we still can't get a Democratic party that says it is disqualifying to be a Democrat and send money to that country.
That's that's what we should be arguing about. And to the extent that Margaret Taylor Green or Tucker Carlson or Massie or AOC or anybody wants to make that argument, I support it. But I hold AOC and the people on the left to a higher standard than I do someone like Marjorie Taylor Green or Tucker Carlson because they never purported to be leftist and they never purported to be pro Palestine. They've come around to this because of a kind of American first ideology. And I I'm glad that they did.
But if you're fighting about who's better than whom, you're missing the point because nobody is giving us what the people of the United States deserve.
>> Um, so the analogy I like to make, and you say that it's important to make the concession that Republicans are a little worse than Democrats, is that >> depending on the issue. I don't that's just for me rhetorically. What's useful is that each >> is that the Democrats and the Republicans are both driving in a car towards a cliff.
>> Yeah. The Republicans are going 100 miles an hour and the Democrats are going 98 miles an hour.
>> Sure.
>> They're both going over the cliff.
>> Yeah.
>> And >> yeah, I think that's a good analogy.
>> And that's that's and so to to to claim that you're the moral superior because you vote for the car going 98 miles an hour instead of the >> By the way, Jimmy, you can say cuz there are people going to hear that analogy and be like Republicans are more than 2% worse than Dems. You can say it's 25 miles an hour. It doesn't matter. You're still going over the cliff. If the doors are locked, you're still going over the cliff. You know, you can't stop, drop, and roll your way out of this.
Um, do you think that what do you So, I don't see a solution. Uh, here's my solution.
Um, my solution is that, uh, there has to be a worker rebellion. And the way we do it that during COVID, the truckers set the template for this. And I have to remind people that the truckers were vaccinated at a higher rate than the general population. They weren't protesting against medicine. They were protesting against authoritarianism. And it turns out they were right. And the reason why they cut off their bank accounts, they cut off and made them criminals, called them Nazis, which was scops, uh, and then cut off the bank accounts of anybody who supported them was because they saw the danger of people realizing that the oligarchs really don't have the power that we all have the power. We have it. And they were setting the they were setting an example and they got every in the Democratic party in the United States to turn against those people instead of supporting them. truckers.
truckers. They sided with the oligarchs and big pharma and criminal uh um genociders like like Fouchy and Tony Collins over workingass truckers.
And there were white truckers and Indian truckers and black truckers. All types of truckers. They're truckers. They're the working class came together for to red address their government over grievances and they got crushed.
Yeah, I remember doing an episode about this with um Q Anthony Dose uh who's Canadian was really on top of all this stuff at the time uh when it happened and the biggest sort of canary in the coal mine was the extent to which the financial apps were being weaponized to prevent people from doing activism. So that was one instance of it. Then in the cop city protests, um they shut down the GoFundMes that were being used to raise bail money for people who have been arrested, if I'm recalling correctly, under these really flimsy RICO charges for basically distributing uh pamphlets, flyers, uh to raise awareness about how nobody in the community wanted this cop city to be built. And I think that that, you know, the the alarm bell should have been ringing real loud about this because for whatever happened with the National Black Lives Matter organization that was corrupt and embezzling money and all of that, organizers on the ground around a lot of these movements have been trying to tell folks about why they're growing the carceral state the way that they are. and the ICE uh facilities, the cop cities, the paramilitary training that they're doing those cop cities in conjunction with the IDF. It's all because they are they are ratcheting up to being able to police and control our communities the same way that they do Palestine to know where we are at every point. All of the surveillance technology and this al also ties into the data centers. Why do you need all of these data centers to be built? What is the data that they're going to be processing? Well, they're surveillance centers, and I'm sure you've seen some of the speculation about whether or not the ballroom that the Liberals hate because they think it's like some kind of like um imperial excess. But the real reason people might maybe should have concern about the money that's being spent on the ballroom is because there's speculation that it's a surveillance center being built. It's the technological infrastructure that people should be concerned about.
They're simultaneously ratcheting up the criminal penalties for protest. Y >> I don't know if you recall the person who was setting fire to data centers.
you never heard from him again. They learned from Luigi Mani not to make accidental heroes of some of these individuals because they understand that what you say is true, Jimmy, that a kind of direct action um and leveraging strike power is going to be the only way things get done. And you've seen this in the UK, too, that there has been media vilification of anybody who does so much as like toss a can of soup at a painting that causes no damage to the painting because it's behind glass. They'll throw they throw those kids in jail to stop oil protesters for a couple of years.
And I know it's easy to make fun of a bunch of pink heada kids who throw soup at a painting. But what we should be paying attention to the same way that it was so easy for liberals to make fun of the Canadian truckers is that it shows you how they're going to use ratcheted up criminal penalties and public sympathies and shutting down what should be sort of publicly available infrastructure like Vinos and GoFundMes.
They debanked this. This is not a defense of his substantive politics, but they debanked Kanye West. I mean, we should be very concerned about how many vectors there are to prevent traditional organizing from taking place. And we need to, I think, pay less attention to to your point. I think I disagree with the chuckles chuckers because of whatever, you know, I've been told about what they believe in. or I disagree with Kanye because no, I don't think you should tweet out swastikas, but like do we believe do we are we going to use that as a pretext to allow the state to increasingly extend its authoritarian control over how we move and are able to resist in our own country.
>> And so people I'm I'm the message at this show is that you think they put $80 billion in for ICE because they were trying to fight illegal immigrants. They want illegal immigrants here to drive down wages. That's why they're ratcheting up the H-1B visas. And it's to keep us fighting. It's to keep people who are poor and desperate fighting and even people who are more poor and even desperate. So we can't come together to join against them. That's the point of that. And the reason why they have $80 billion to build ICE for this new Gustapo and to build prisons is not for immigrants. It's for you when you realize that that uh the oligarchy is getting rid of all your jobs and you live in a surveillance state. And as soon as you as as as uh m Michael Pary said uh you try to you you got a leash around your neck and as soon as you try to move from the peg, you feel that tug and as soon as you say anything, just like you said, they're criminalizing protest. That's what those prisons are for. They're there, they're going to call you a terrorist as soon as you make it okay to take rights away from terrorists and put terrorists in jail without uh trials or without Barack Obama repealed a habius corpus. That was all supposed to be aimed at terrorists.
Well, they're going to make you a terrorist. So, just like just like Tucker Carlson pointed out to Kevin Olri in 1940 was okay to be Japanese. The 1941 it wasn't.
>> And then they put them all in prison.
And so, the same thing. So, they're getting ready to do this because they know it's coming. And right now, Larry Frink is afraid that people are going to start drone bombing his data centers.
And uh now they're talking about giving UBI to everybody, which is another form of slavery because then the government can control you even more. And if you step out of line, they can cut off your income. They have kill switches in your cars. They taken if it's all about surveillance and control. And people don't realize this. And so what needs to happen is uh the railroad workers, which is the backbone of capitalism in the United States, they need to not go to work for a couple of days or maybe a couple of weeks. And some of those union leaders have to be willing to go to prison for a few days or a little while.
Same thing with the port workers or the truck drivers or all the grocery workers. We have the power. And and that's why they were so overreacting to the truckers because they realized if the people realize they have the power, it's over for us. And so that's that's what so that's the only thing. We ain't going to vote our way out of this. This whole idea that we can vote for somebody and it's going to make a difference.
It's not going to make a difference. It doesn't matter who you vote for. The Governor Nuomo just said >> that somebody asked him, "Hey, what happens if two Republicans win this jungle primary and then we're going to be stuck with a Republican governor?" He said, "We have a break the glass uh plan. Don't worry." Meaning, >> I missed that.
>> Yes. He said, "We have a break. That's not going to happen. We have a break."
Just like Joe Biden said, "They're not going to be allowed to to build Nordstream 2." It's not going to happen cuz we're going to blow it up. And then he did that. Same thing with the govern Governor Newsome. We're not going to let that happen. We're going to control the election and we're going to rig it just like they rig every Democrat.
>> That's what they meant to ask you this.
Do you think I mean we're all speculating, you know, but what do you make of these arguments that the Thomas Massie election was also rigged because the amount that he lost by was basically the same volume as the um the mail and ballots?
>> Um I I think if if you don't suspect election rigging, you're a chump. M >> uh if you don't how is $32 million by genociding uh pedo protectors not rigging an election that that that right there is rigging an election right so uh the you know how many donors that Thomas Massie you know how many Kentucky donors donated to Thomas Massiey's >> it's some crazy small number like >> 70 70 donors that was it and so what happened >> and nobody showed up to his election win victory party that's like an empty room >> empty room so so What? So, what that shows you is that that election was rigged in at least two different ways.
It was probably rigged at the Why wouldn't they? Are you kidding me? They Why? They wouldn't do that. They would They would blow up building 7, but they wouldn't rig a congressional election.
Of course, they would. They would force experimental medical treatments on you that they knew was going to kill people that they knew was useless. That but they wouldn't do that for Of course they would. They wouldn't invent a virus as a bioweapon because that's what it was. Do Dr. Fouchi was the head of the bioweapons division at DARPA and Barack Obama put a moratorium on gain of function research and he said f you I'm doing it anyway and he did it through the CIA cutout echoalth alliance. They invented that virus at the University of North Carolina. Ralph Bareric did it.
Then they shipped it to Wuhan and then they invented the vaccine. That's the that's the game. You invent the virus, you invent the vaccine at the same time.
That's exactly what they did. And they knew it was killing people just like he knew act was killing people during the AIDS crisis. And uh and then they knew reming people. They knew intentib Ivormectin and hydroxychloroquin did treat co all this stuff. They knew it was there wasn't a thing they didn't lie about. It was the biggest scop and the my heroes said nothing about it.
And so >> yeah, I've lost I mean I'm not I don't follow some of some of that I did follow very closely. some of it, the more recent stuff, I did see a story about a new North Carolina development, but since I've been on haven't been on Rising, I haven't had to keep up with the day-to-day of it as closely. But, you know, I'm old enough to remember when something as like mundane as Lab leak theory, if you said it could be a possibility, yeah, you were a racist and it got you chased out of the public sphere. And thank God for someone like, you know, um, you know, Sax, Dr. Sachs was one of the first like mainstream people because he was, you know, working at Lancet and was like a real a real guy. Um, >> so they discredited everybody who said it before like people like uh uh uh Robert Malone uh who who has who owns at least three or four vaccine patents and he came out and told the truth about the vaccine and they immediately did a hit piece on him in Atlantic and everybody said this guy's a liar and a cook and they said this. So that's that's the name of the game. And people they cover Joe uh Joe Rogan was telling the truth about Ivormectton and CNN colored his skin green.
>> Yeah. The horse tranquilizers. That was such a such a dark time. Are you surprised, by the way, Jamie? Cuz I remember thinking when I was covering when I was like it was like midterms last time around, you know, 2022 and Robbie and I would speculate about what the election season was going to look like and whether or not he was going to challenge Trump and all this stuff. It felt like COVID was going to be a real motivating factor for the election and then RFK Jr. started to run as a Democrat and it felt like he was going to coales a coalition behind him of people who were frustrated by what could broadly be characterized as co authoritarianism and also be like an anti-war voice. And then when he immediately bent the knee on Israel and that kind of all fell apart, that lane remained unoccupied. And now now we're talking obviously about some version of that lane reopening up in 2028. But like were you as surprised as I was that you know co completely fell out of the discourse for the 2024 election in sort of anywhere kind of right now or or am I just on the wrong >> No of course it of course it did because Trump still wants credit for the warp speed and Joe Biden was the one who forced experimental medical treatments on people which is what Nazis do and uh and lied about it and um you know we now know the more vac and it wasn't even a vaccine. It's it was not never a vaccine. Uh they had to change the definition of vaccine literally in the dictionary. So to make the mRNA platform COVID vac considered a vaccine.
>> Help me understand what that means. What do you I just have never I haven't heard that.
>> So a vaccine was it used to the the definition used to be it creates immunity to a virus. Now they changed it to it creates an immune response to a virus which is a totally different thing. And so it doesn't so >> weren't there my understanding was that there were like sterilizing vaccines where the idea was you would just not get the thing you would never get the disease and then there were non-sterilizing vaccines that >> made you just the effects of it less bad and that people think that polio is a sterilizing vaccine but in fact it just makes it so you don't get paralyzed in an iron lung many vaccines are >> polio is a whole another scam and I I don't really want to get into it but it is it is a whole another scam >> and and Um, but uh they legit that's I'm not making that up. You can check it.
Ask Rock. Go to Google. They changed the definition of what a vaccine is in 2020 so they can call that a vaccine. That's a that's for real.
>> Okay. Well, I'm not going to ask rock because the data centers will kill us all but not because of me.
>> So I want >> not because of my use of AI. Okay. So, just to speak to that, uh, do most people I talked to, they want to memoryhole COVID because the people who went along with it, you forget most people forget that they did a they did a survey of Democrats during CO and they said if someone is unwilling to vaccinate their children, would you be for taking their children away? And almost half of Democratic voters said yes, they would take their children away. And now we know that the vaccines were deadly and more deadly than COVID.
COVID wasn't even deadly. CO had a death rate of 0.04%.
And as a as soon as Bill Gates cashed in his stock, he bought $50 million in stock for Fizer and then he cashed it in for $550 million. He immediately went on TV and said, "Yeah, well, you know, uh, turns out that CO wasn't deadly. It only affected the elderly. It was kind of like the flu, but just a little bit different." Of course it was. So that was all lies. That whole thing about we're not going to have enough hospital beds. We had dancing nurses doing routines in empty hospitals. Uh it was all it was all a lie. It was all a scop.
And uh the vaccines actually increased your chances of getting sick. They increased your chances of dying. In fact, now they've done the biggest study ever, the thing called excess death. So here, let me just back up. And the reason why nobody wants to talk about it, Briana, is because the people who went along with it, like the people I just talked about, wanted to take people's kids away, uh, they became enforcers for big pharma and the fascist state against their own neighbor. And they were easily easily turned against their own neighbor. And the reason why because if they admit that the the enormity of the lie and scop that we were put under under co if they have they admit that it was and it was one big lie and it was uh then they have to admit that their culpability of acting like monsters during it and they don't want to do that because nobody wants to admit their shadow. Nobody wants to admit that they were a monster and they were monsters and so >> I mostly I mostly didn't want to talk about it at the time and at least without an expert on my show and an opportunity to sort of moot what they had said and what their opponents like their you know detractors had said was because I'm not a medical you know I don't have any kind of medical background and the public health implications for it are very serious right because you know >> but I'm not a military I'm not a military general and I know that the Ukraine war was a scop a that was started by I'm not I know that there's a genocide happen. So you don't have to be an expert to know when the government is lying to you.
>> But to the to that point, I didn't start talking about I don't randomly talk about Iran unless I have an expert on my show, right? There's limits to my own knowledge and that's why I prefer to have an interview show and I don't go around making speeches to people telling them what to I mean that's just not my >> I got you stick. But I you know I have you know I prepared look I I prepared for my co episodes.
because I was reading this by the pool and my boyfriend at the time was like, "Can you put a different cover on that book?" Lol. Um, but you know, I I prepared and I had episodes on it, but I just I certainly don't I'm not up to date on it. And I prefer not to weigh in on it because one way or the other, I think many of the things you say are probably true. I also just saw a story that was of interest about um how having got COVID makes you uh so much more, I think Ryan Grammit tweeted about it, so much more uh susceptible or the potency of other kinds of illnesses or worse.
And there is a similarity between some of the effects of COVID injury, sorry, vaccine injury and of COVID injury. And I don't want anything that I say to be construed as I think I I told you that I believe that to be myself to be COVID vaccine injured, but I also do think that people's concerns about the long-term effects of CO are valid. And I'm not really sure. I certainly don't want to be evangelizing about what the public health response to both of those realities, what they should be. And if what you say is true, again I don't have any basis of knowledge in this, but if it's true that both COVID and the vaccine were a part of some broader conspiracy, that is deeply cruel and inhumane because now we're contending again. We're kind of fighting back and forth between ourselves about whether that vaccines or the COVID causes more damage. And if they both cause damage, where does that put us as a society? And who should we be holding really accountable? Certainly not each other.
We're all just trying to figure out how to respond at this time.
>> I'm glad you brought that question because the largest study ever done between unvaccinated and vaccinated people, there's a thing called excess deaths. So, they know how many people are supposed to die every year.
>> Mhm.
>> And we have been experiencing excess deaths way over the baseline since the vaccine roll out, right? And so, some people say, "Well, that's because of CO." Well, guess what? They just did the biggest study ever. 20 million people in Japan and I'm going to show you what the results are. Let's listen.
>> There's been I'm not sure if you've seen it's just coming out of Japan at the moment. It's only semi in print, but in Japan they were able to take 20 million people and work out who had the vaccine and who didn't. And they were able to show highly significant that all the excess deaths were in the vaccinated group that the nonvaccinated group had none. Now, all right, that's just one study in Japan. But last week, >> well, a study of 20 million people, >> 22 million people. Yeah, >> it's not a bad study.
>> Last week, uh, a very smart statistician in Australia sent me his paper that he's just publishing, so I won't mention all the details, but what he was able to show was that ex about 3 months after every splurge of a vaccine booster, mortality went up. And that's exactly the timing the Japanese found. They found that the peak mortality was 100 days after the uh after after vaccine vaccination whatever the vac had then the the so there's this amazing consistency now that's starting to come remembering that the Australian government had an inquiry into excess deaths and said there's nothing in it it's all due to co I mean I tell you >> that's just I mean I mean >> so I wanted to share that with you because people don't know this people don't know but any they don't know what the term excess death means and they don't they don't know that they were lied to and they said that people who died uh when they were vaccinated they considered them unvaccinated even though they were vaccinated.
>> Look I I I'm open to it Jimmy but like this for the same you're going to be frustrated with me for the same reason that the Fouchy lovers are frustrated at me. I just I need to do I do my own I I do my own vetting. I I just but I this is certainly something that's of interest, right? And I certainly am open to it. But I, you know, I gotta I would prefer to stay on ground where I actually have done my own research and have vetted this stuff out. I can't I don't want this conversation to get derailed or undermined by the public because it's like, well, Briana said she agreed with something. I have no idea. I just I don't have any basis for >> this, but I appreciate being made aware of it.
>> Yeah. I just I just wanted to make you aware of this. Uh I don't need I don't need you to agree with me. Uh, I just want, you know, people who watch this and I want you specifically to to because you were vaccine injured. When was the last time you got a vaccine for COVID?
>> I just got the first one in the booster.
Okay.
>> One booster.
>> You got one booster.
>> Okay.
>> All right. Um, so that's what I, you know, we were told. I I and I appreciate you giving me all this time and I appreciate you being, you know, so cordial and generous. Uh, I really do and I and the thing I really appreciate about you, Rihanna, is that when you do find a truth, no matter what your personal cost is, you're going to tell that truth. And >> I don't know why else we would be here.
I mean, I appreciate you saying that.
So, you have integity. I don't know why else we would be here.
>> Integrity is at a it's, you know, it's very short supply. So, you have character and integrity. And even though we may agree disagree on certain things, I know it's genuine and I don't have to worry about you lying to me. I believe that about you too, Jimmy. It really irritates me how much when people on the left in our in our media context disagree with each other.
It's never It's so infrequently substantive. It's like they're a grifter. They're paid by this person, the other person. I'm like, I swear to God, I make less money than I did when I was 26 years old as a as a first year attorney.
This is not the grift. Do you know what I mean?
>> Yes. I I I'm not one of these people that needed this like as professional like as or as like a as a means of financial gain. Um and I sometimes think and I I don't and I think about you Jamie. I remember during the force the vote days and the way you put yourself on the line and so passionately talked about your own healthcare story and how this what this all meant to you. I I believed you and I continue to believe you and I think there's an earnestness there that I really respect as well. And I think that it's very easy to cherrypick. This is this goes back to the like AOC MTG conversation. you. I can sit here and come up with reasons why AOC is way better on Palestine than Margie Taylor Green. And I can sit here and come up with reasons why Margie Taylor Green or Thomas Massie or Tucker Carlson's public statements are better than AOC's public statements because everyone's said and done a lot of stuff and I can create the contrast that's of interest to me, right? And people can sit here and cherrypick from both of us positions they do and do not agree with.
But I believe and credit that where you're coming from with respect, especially to how I've heard you talk about uh Medicare for all is very sincere. And I do wonder why some people get a pass on completely abandoning that enormously central public health issue and using arguments around pragmatism to make excuses for damning tens of thousands of people to death every year.
Just as tens of thousands of people are being damned to death, hundreds of thousands in Palestine because of their vote blue no matter who means vote for Israel no matter what.
>> And so I just wanted to So people say they're tired of hearing about forced to vote. Um it was a water it was a watershed moment in American politics.
>> Yeah. And that's not to pat myself on the back, but that's to it. It it was laid bare that voting for a Democrat, even no matter how pretend progressive they they campaign as, is as Kashama Sawad says, if you're a progressive, the road for you inside the Democratic party leads to a graveyard.
>> Yeah.
>> And that is a fact. So this this voting is not going to work. What the only thing that's going to work is what the truckers did in Canada. And that has to be replicated here in the United States.
truckers, railroad workers, port workers, uh UPS driver, grocery store workers that some that has to h and if they one of them would be enough to do it, but if they a couple of them came together or all of them and they has to have a demand. So that's the thing that people So we have these no kings marches right and we had the women's march after Trump was elected the first time and you know millions of people came out across the country and that was a 100% SCOP that was funded by the oligarchs and the way I know that is because there was no demand attached to it zero demand that was to take the revolutionary energy and the people wanting to redress their government for grievances and funnel it right back into the oligarchy's two parties which is a one party cuz there's no demand And and so what if and when the when the workers do rise up, if the if the uh the railroad workers didn't go to work, the port workers or whoever it is, the demand needs to be the first thing it has to be is no money in politics. We have to have public funding for our elections. And the election season has to be 6 weeks long. It can't be two years long. And that's the first demand. The first demand is no money in politics and it's publicly funded. And then the second one could be term limits. It could be whatever you want.
But that it has to be that demand and that has to happen. And and if that doesn't happen, we're never getting cuz we're an empire in decline right now. We still can't we we can't, you know, Mexico is building train lines up their we can't even build a train line in California. We put billions and billions of dollars in. And the vi the idea the fact that I live in a state in California which is 100% Democratc controlled. The House, the Senate, and the governor has been Democrat forever and things keep getting way worse.
homelessness. They spent $25 billion on homelessness. The Democrats and nobody knows where that money went and homelessness got worse. There's tents all over the place. Street. So, what I tell people is that now we're going to be a surveillance state. We are a surveillance state already. Flock cameras, data centers. They got you. Uh the vaccine was uh was surveillance.
That's what the the vaccine pass. That was all fact. That was all that was to get you ready. And and and so what we're what we're turning out to be is we're going to be China, a surveillance state, except we're going to have way more street crime, homelessness, and slower trains. That's we don't have anything good. We got nothing good that comes from this kind of fascism. We have all the bad things. Um I just wanted to, you know, there's so much I want one before I let you go. I just wanted to um so this was Okaziocortez when she ran, right? when people supported her, people dummies like me. Uh, it says Okaziac Cortez ran on a platform of challenging the Democratic establishment exemplified by her upset victory over incumbent rep Representative Joe Crowley. She supported progressive challenges in safe blue districts to move the party further left, believing sitting members were not representative enough of their districts. She aligned closely with organizations like the Justice Democrats aiming to overturn incumbent power structures. In 2026, AOC has become powerful, more central voice in Congress, even considering abandoning the practice of supporting primary challenges against colleagues.
And what drove me nuts during Force to Vote, which you were such a strong supporter of, and you were the only person in the mainstream media that came out and supported it in in the current affairs magazine, which I'm forever grateful for you for doing that, and you took you got pillaried for doing that.
Um uh uh the the point what was now was my what was my goddamn point?
>> Uh uh my point was that um that you can't it it it was a it was a revelatory moment and the de and the Republicans actually even put an exclamation point on it because when they took control of the house they extracted concession after concession after concession out of McCarthy to the point where he didn't want to become speaker anymore. And uh >> well he couldn't he couldn't be speaker.
I mean he didn't have a choice, right?
That was the whole plan. That was the whole point of force the vote. And you know people who maybe were you like genuinely ignorant of how this works or were intentionally obuscating, lied to the public one way or another, wittingly or unwittingly lied to the public about whether or not doing the force the vote plan would cause a right-wing uh would cause a Republican speaker of the house.
>> That was a lie. That was a lie because you have to have an absolute majority, not a bare majority, like more than 50%.
So, Democrats would have had to have voted for a Republican speaker, which obviously was never going to happen for us to end up with a Republican speaker, just like we didn't end up with Hakee Jeff as speaker when they did this uh a couple of years ago when Republicans did this a couple of years ago. Um, just because they wouldn't vote for Kevin McCarthy. Right.
>> Yep.
>> And you're completely right. Our And can I just say this? I want to I want to say this.
I would love to let this go if people were willing to acknowledge that they just got that one wrong and move on. Right? But that is not what's happening. The very same people who were so strategically bad, like deeply ignorant, like humiliatingly embarrassingly ignorant in that moment, just wouldn't say, "You know what? We got that one wrong." Or AOC called me because we know this to be true, right?
Um Sam Cedar said this and during our debate he said something along the lines of like that someone someone from Congress had called him from somebody's office had called him and asked him to lay off of this issue and that he had you know he could say I I trusted and politicians more than I should have. I thought they had a plan and they didn't and I made a mistake. I cornered I cornered Jamal Bowman about this in an interview on Bad Faith podcast and asked him to reflect on whether or not he we thought it was a mistake not to use the leverage the progressives had at the time especially now that he's been ousted with no protection from his own party by Zionists and there was still this sort of fundamental unwillingness his his justification was people were being mean to Alex >> you know the AOC people were being mean to Alex and therefore before he didn't like it. And look, I you can say a lot of things about me, but if my biggest enemy supports me, I'm I'm with it.
We're going to go for it. You know, there's plenty of stuff that you and I disagree on, but I saw you as a passionate defender of a fighter fighter for Medicare for all, and we were going to link up, Jimmy.
>> Yep.
>> And I don't, you know, there's a, you know, I do believe I don't expect you to agree with me on this. I believe that Tucker Carlson believes in the great replacement theory and is a white supremacist and has been hateful toward Arabs and Muslims for his entire career and I am not credulous about his change of heart in the last year or so. Am I thrilled, however, that he is busting up um the the the war hungry bag establishment and creating a new path for anti-war Republicans 100%. And I will encourage that to whatever extent that I can with my measly little podcast. And the same is true of all of these people who have had disagreements with on the left. I have no interest in yucking your yum. I'm I think it's wonderful that Hosen Piger can help someone like um what's his name? Uh Bib in Philadelphia just get elected.
>> Okay.
>> Or or you know >> Eliad.
>> Or Elsa. Exactly. I'm like amazing, right? I I have no just because we disagree even even with the, you know, the the the Contra points interview I just did and the way that she reacted to it after the fact, you know, I wasn't thrilled with that, but I don't have like antipathy toward her. I disagree with her and to the extent that she wants to start believing in things again, I would be thrilled to hear that and fight for things with her. Um, and so I I'm very happy to move forward, but I would prefer so that people have accountability and real trust in you and your decision-making going forward if there could at least be an acknowledgment of how wrong half the left was to trust these establishment left actors as folks that had a quote unquote plan and that were quote unquote keeping their powder keg dry.
>> I I 100% agree with you. Um, I'll join with anybody to do good and nobody to do wrong as Frederick Douglas said and um just there's so many things but just to you you know Tucker Carlson and I uh were super unlikely allies because I spent the first 10 years of my career making fun of Tucker Carlson >> and all of a sudden uh I couldn't believe it. He was telling the truth about the Syrian war. The Syrian war, >> right? So those are brown people getting killed and those are terrorists that we're supporting to overthrow somebody and what's that all about? And he was telling the truth about it and I'm like he's the he's the only guy in all of media and anywhere telling the truth about it except and my show too. And then later it was Aaron Mate.
And uh so I it was the most unlikely alliance and I would go on his show and I would get pillered for going on his show to tell people half the country the truth about the Syrian war which Tucker Carlson agreed with and then again he was right about the Ukraine war and then again he was right about COVID and he was right about vaccines and you know he is a true he certainly definitely has had a change of heart and it's >> so what do you attribute that though Jim because this is what I'm wrestling with with the Tucker thing. It's like I think Tucker is quite obviously extremely intelligent. So, he's not someone who was just had bad analytical skills and was too stupid to realize uh why the country was being why Islamophobia was being pushed in the wake of 9/11 and the expansion of surveillance powers. I mean, I'm sure you saw that clip maybe a week or two ago of I think it was um Megan Kelly kind of opining like wondering out loud, thinking through it out loud like, "Oh, I'm realizing that maybe a lot of the Islamophobia that I was told to believe in was because Israel."
>> Yes. And she goes, "Have I was I a victim of propaganda?" Well, that's the beauty of propaganda. The victims of it don't know it's propaganda, right? And so, just like Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk had a had a had an awakening and they killed him. Like no disrespect, I don't mean this to like like jab the guy, but like I don't think Tucker I mean Tucker Carlson is miles more intelligent than Charlie Kirk and Charlie Kirk was much younger and less experienced and all of those things. So I I have a tough time I have a tough time believing that Tucker was so ignorant as to not understand this up until this point. Well, I think he I think he started understanding it somewhere around the Syrian war and and he realized who the real puppet masters were and he realized that there were the neocons and there was the the war machine and he realized that he's not going to do that anymore because he actually had guilt >> for supporting the supporting the I mean for that Tucker has apologized in a way that some of these forced the vote detractors have not Tucker has apologized whether or not you think it's a sufficient apology he has said I'm so was so wrong about the Iraq war and I'm embarrassed about my support of the Iraq war. Like I do appreciate that that was said like for sure that sets him apart from some of the others who just sort of want to sweep everything under the rug.
But I am struggling with I'm struggling with why right when what it feels like with respect to Israel right when public opinion shifts I mean maybe that's >> I I don't know I don't know he was on the for it was bad until now kind of framing >> doesn't sit well with me >> he told me >> years ago >> that he said you know we were talking about I can't believe that I I was at his house and I was like, I can't believe that we're on the same side and you see through these people the way I see through these people and he's actually for working people. I remember he was doing an interview with Ben Shapiro and Ben Shapiro said, uh, you know what happens when they have trucks that are now going to be driven by AI?
What do you what would you do with that?
And Tucker Carlson said, well, I would ban it.
>> The number one the number one job for for uh high school educated men is truck driving. And what are you going to do with those millions of people if you to throw them out of a job? And Ben Shapiro said, "What about capitalism?" He goes, "Capitalism is a good idea, but it's not a religion >> and if it doesn't serve the people, you don't you don't do it." And so >> I remember that he's had a full arc. And so he told me um years ago that I said, "I can't believe you see through this.
We're on the same side when it comes to populists and workers against the machine and the mo and the war machine."
And he said he looked me in the eye. He said, "And the next the next big thing I've got to get him to agree with me on is Israel." And I was like, are you I thought he was bullshitting.
>> Yeah.
>> And he and he went on to make the most articulate uh and he's still the best guy to make the articulate from a Christian point of view against Israel.
And he's the biggest uh most articulate, strongest advocate for Arabs and Muslims right now.
>> I don't I don't disagree with that.
Although there was a bit of a slip up in that re recent interview that's gone viral. Did you see where he uh backs off of calling it a genocide under like very little pressure? I was confused by that.
>> Oh, he he I think it's just the same. He doesn't want to get it doesn't matter what the word is.
>> But it does matter, Jimmy. Who? That's his point of view. His point of view is we have to stop it. I I don't want to fight about the word. I get it. I don't want to fight about the word either. I think it's a genocide. Hey, I I have a joke. I go, "Well, some people say it's not genocide. It's ethnic cleansing."
Okay. Well, it sounds sounds like they're cleaning them. But anyway, it's it doesn't So people like people want to talk about semantics.
>> It's not It's not semantics. is a legal definition that has international law consequences that is not even being debated. And that's the thing I know that Tucker knows that like I I am I guess on some level holding Tucker to a higher standard because I believe he is more intelligent than a lot of these interlocators. Like look, I listen to some people they're like Max Max Wilth is good at this. Like he has an incredible memory and he'll rattle off to you here are the 15 international organizations that have all said it's a genocide. I my brain doesn't work like that. I have to have it written down or I have prepared it in advance. Right.
Tucker strikes me as someone who has a kind of Max Blumenthal grasp of the facts, great recall, who knows who I've I've heard him in other contexts make the argument for why it's genocide. And I couldn't quite I was confused.
>> So maybe his calculation is that that's a that's a distraction from what we what what the purpose is, the goal is that that's what I think.
>> Maybe. But my bigger my bigger point is this, like I wonder if you talked to him about or if anybody who has had the opportunity to talk to him has talked to him about whether he has rethought any of his past statements about the great replacement theory and the implications for non-white Americans, right? Because I think one of his vulnerabilities has been >> they admit but they admit that that they're doing replacement. I mean the Democrats used to say they used to say Democrat they used to say what is it was dem Demographics are what was that saying? to say demographics are destiny.
But I'm making that argument.
>> That's that's a replacement theory.
Brianna, what is that?
>> Stop. Before you get into it, I'm the one that made that argument. Okay? I made that argument. I did a whole radar that the liberals ate me up for that was titled something like Tucker Carlson is right. Replacement theory is real. Okay?
Like I'm not making that argument. My point the point that I made in that radar was not that Democrats don't didn't believe that um democratic changes were going to make it so that they could always win elections without ever having to basically do anything for anybody. Like I believe that is true, but that the reality is that that hasn't happened. That as you pointed out earlier in the show, way more Latinos ended up being interested in voting Republican than they ever predicted. And instead of doing something about it, like helping Latino, helping like working-class people who among whom Latinos are overrepresented, the Democrat, excuse me, the Democrats just started screaming about how everybody's racist. So, I don't disagree with that aspect. But the point that I make in the radar is that Tucker starts to really blur the lines between saying, "I protect and respect the character of America," and then making arguments about laws that he disagrees with that didn't like protect the ethnic character of America, but protected the racial character of America. So where he starts to get sloppy is about saying these kinds of immigrants are good even though they're immigrants and not American and are not bringing American culture, but these kind of immigrants are bad because Donald Trump's style they come from hole countries and basically they're they're brown people. And what gets sidestepped in his arguments about what it means to be an American and American first is what are his attitudes toward black Americans? um the most American people that exist, you know, people who by definition have been here at least since the 1700s, right? Because slavery was uh the importing of slavery was outlawed out outlawed in I think 1805 or something like that, 1808, first the first decade of the 19th century, right?
So I do think that if he wants to run for office, if he wants to have credibility as someone who is even, you know, a critic of Israel and its apartheid white supremacist, ethnosuppreist ideology, he's going to have to reckon with the inconsistency, the dissonance between what Israel is doing and a kind of like white nationalist philosophy that even if he does not think he believes in, the great replacement theory definitionally is is and was is was embraced by people who saw it as establishing establishing a white ethnostate in the United States of America.
>> I think there's a difference between arguing for keeping the cultural uh the culture of America that he grew up in and seeing it change instead of seeing it be assimilated. Um >> well, should we should we have the culture should we be aspiring for the culture of America in the 1960s? What is that what are the implications of that for me?
>> Uh well, obviously you should be in prison. Uh uh so uh >> the way we've been talking about mass protest, Jimmy, we might we might be sharing a cell.
>> No, no, no doubt about it. But let's not forget it that Tucker Carlson uh had was at the tippy top of uh uh in news. He he was the number one show and they took all his advertisers away and they still kept him on because he was that popular and he still kept telling the truth. He got fired for telling the truth. He didn't get fired for lying. Rachel Maddo got a $35 million contract because she lied at the top of her lungs for four straight years during Donald Trump's first presidency.
>> And same with Candace. I mean, to me, Candace Owens is the one that lost the most um and who I find to be the most sincere. Not that it really matters who's the most sincere if I, you know, I'm glad they're all saying what they're saying. But I because she didn't have as much as many resources as Tucker Carlson and but still was willing to go up against her boss and Ben Shapiro in like the most Zionist news environment I imagine you could expect and suffer all of those things and arrows and really stick the landing and really center it in a kind of humanist respect for like children's lives that was very consistent I think with her you know I'm not a Christian but deeply consistent with her Christian morality. I found her to be I find her to be very effective and has been very consistent from the beginning of uh the genocide uh in her criticisms of Israel and her investment in protecting human life. I you know I I I give I really give credit there where credit's due.
>> She was and she was also a big critic of Black Lives Matter.
>> She was and I look forward to talking to her. I mean as was I and many people on the left. I think there's a difference between Candace Owens and I there's a difference between uh critiquing a corrupt organization and sort of believing that criminal justice reform isn't a priority. You know that black people that anybody should sit in jail simply because they don't have the money for their bail. Like those are the kinds of things that Black Lives Matter was fighting for. And those are not the kinds of things the or not the organization the movement and those are not the kinds of things that I understand Candace Owens to have an investment in. Although I could be wrong about that and I look forward to talking to her about it face to face someday.
>> You know, and as as you know, the idea of uh you know, would you vote for this person? I'll vote for anybody who's willing to buck their party. And you know, Tucker Carlson gave up way more than Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders wasn't willing to give up a thing uh to fight for his people or his movement. Not a thing. Uh >> I hope someday >> he got way richer in the middle of it.
He got way richer in the middle of it.
and which was a that was a bribe from the establishment and he took it and uh so Tucker did the exact opposite. He's got way more character than Bernie Sanders will ever have. Bernie Sanders has he has words and he does never doesn't have action to back it up. Well, and I just did I just did a eulogy for Michael Pari and believe me, he'll tell you a lot of about Bernie Sanders.
And so >> look, I I I would I mean I have I have no reason to, you know, but I don't I don't personally, so I'm going to speak to what I know. And what I know is that I want to say this. Very few leftists have been given an opportunity to interview him. I certainly haven't. I know that Crystal Leal did an interview maybe a couple two or three years ago.
If you are a leftist, if you get in front of Bernie Sanders and you don't ask him some of these kinds of questions, if you're not asking him the kind of questions that make him want to get up and leave the room, there's we're never going to get we get like one bite of the apple every few years. And for the sake of the integrity of this movement and not having to act in speculation and to like really make it clear what we're up against, someone has to ask him what made you want to endorse Joe Biden like 5 days after you dropped out without getting any concessions. Do you have regrets about that fact? Why were you defending Joe Biden even after the debate in the Pod Save America people and all the Democratic establishment had even abandoned him?
Were you promised anything that wasn't actually delivered upon? Do you agree with our analysis of how Chuck Schumer intentionally sabotaged the $15 minimum wage? If so, why do you persist in redirecting people toward this party? Do you not see and are you not inspired by the successes of uh uh what does Palansky and the Green Party of movement in the UK? You know, like the like if we have any hope of heightening the contrast sufficient to make people abandon the duopoly, it's going to have to be because we get not just we sit here and we speculate about Bernie Sanders, but because we get him on the record answering questions about why he has behaved the way he has that make it more difficult for people who are inclined to make excuses for this behavior to do so effectively. he'll and I would rather be there instead of speculating because look maybe there are some good reasons like I was open to the idea even during the force of vote that AFC had some secret strategy up her sleeve that was going to make me have egg on my face six months later but that's not how it worked out right >> that's not how it worked out now she's been revealed now even the people who defended her during forced to vote are her enemies like the people at the Young Turks which I'm I welcome them I welcome their awakening I'm glad they finally found a war or two that they can be against. I'm so happy to see it. I'm so glad to see that AC they stopped selling hoodies with AOCC's face on it and started to oppose her her But >> has anyone reached out to you now that there's sort of an agreement?
>> That's never happening. That that will never happen. Are you kidding? No. I would I'm open to it. I'm open again.
I'll work with anyone to do good and no one to do wrong, including my biggest enemies, which is why I was willing to work with them during the vote, as you know. I was willing to Hey, and I didn't want credit for it. You take credit. Go ahead. you you go out. You can you lead the way.
>> And so and here's the here's the problem that the people don't realize again uh the Democrats are Republicans and Republicans are Democrats and the ratchet effect is real. And here this was back in 2016 and it's still true today. Here's the leader of the Democratic party telling you what their real strategy is that not to appeal to workers or even to their base. They want to they want Republicans to vote for them. For every bluecollar Democrat we will lose in western PA, we will pick up two, three uh moderate Republicans in the suburbs of Philadelphia. And you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.
>> So there there it is. That's that's the end of the story. And and people could still defend that Democratic party after they heard that is mind-blowing to me.
But anyway, we're >> defend it. Yeah, they'll defend it to the end. I mean, people people are even defending AOC saying tirelessly fighting, >> you know, for so for so many people that was like a clear demonstration of her willingness to lie for the establishment. And I would like I personally am not, you know, I'm my politics are different than most of these leftists, but I I would hope that they would at least require an apology before they got back on the like kind of AOC train, but so many of them don't even aren't even demanding that. They're not even saying, "Hey, I'm willing to vote for you. I'm willing to support you." But like, you gota you gotta say you got to say, "I'm sorry for at least tell us that you were lied to, that you really did think that they were tireless. Give us something. Lie to us even." But like that is such a stain on your record. We just can't countenance it. And it's really kind of shocking to me. I thought that I thought that Gaza I mean Gaza was a real shift for people. I don't want to diminish that. But it is it is it is still such a surprise to me and kind of horrifying that there are people for whom even that wasn't enough to lose confidence.
Anyway, >> okay. I Brianna, I really appreciate again I I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you being there and sticking your neck out uh during forced to vote.
That was really a watershed moment and I'll never stop talking about it. It really was. And uh you still take slings and arrows for you know that just that just comes with the territory. It you know you got to get used to it. And you drive people crazy just like I drive people crazy because people don't want to hear the truth. People want to believe a fairy tale. And uh again it doesn't even matter. Electoral politics that really doesn't even matter. And because the only way to to save this empire in decline is if workers rise up and shut down the machine. And that they have to shut down the machine. And if that doesn't happen, it will continue.
We're going to get more homeless people.
We're going to get more ICE prisons.
We're going to get more people losing their jobs to AI. We're going to get more criminalization of protests. And half the country is going to be in prison and the other half is going to be that that that's where we're headed right now. And it's got to happen. And if that doesn't happen, it's just going to keep getting it's going to and makes me almost happy I don't have kids.
>> I think about that all the time.
>> Or house. I'm a happy renter.
>> We burn this building down. So be Raj, I appreciate you staying. I did not expect this to go this long. I had that all the stuff I prepared I didn't even get to. I had a whole Assan segment we were supposed to talk about. I had a had a whole everything that we were going to talk about. We didn't even get to it.
But anyway, thank you so much everybody.
Check out her uh podcast, Bad Faith. Uh she does great interviews. I was just a recent guest on not too long ago. Uh everybody check that out.
>> We got a really good a good data center episode coming out uh tomorrow. So look out for that. I assembled a really great panel of experts on the on the matter and we get into some of the civil disobedia and stuff and what we got to do. So strong recommends.
>> Okay, Brianna Joy, great. Thank you very much.
>> All right. Thank you, Jimmy. Come see me in Atlanta. I'll be at the Helium Comedy Club Saturday and then I'll be in Raleigh, Spokane, Tacoma, Levittown, Rosemont, Chicago. Also, we're having our panel show with celebrity guests June 19th at the Starlight Cabaret.
>> You know, they're already buying tickets.
>> It's on Ventura Boulevard. It's right by Sushi Row in Studio City. I'll see you there. Only 100 tickets. Going fast. Go to jimmy door.com for a link for tickets. There's already a link.
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