Was the Invasion of Anzio Worth It?

[00:00:00]That's where you got wounded.

[00:00:01]>> I got wounded easier.

[00:00:02]>> Yeah.

[00:00:03]>> Yeah. Well, actually, what happened was that the colonel says, uh, we understand the Germans are pulling out. And, uh, I said, well, that's great. And we're, of course, we're facing south on the Muslim Canal. And he says, I want you to take your platoon. I said, meet up with the with the scouts coming north from the fifth army. I have two scouts out front.

[00:00:24]And they both got hit. And uh then machine guns open from both sides of the road.

[00:00:31]And I told uh my good sergeant, good guy, told you take that guy would take a platoon over there. Take a squad over there and I'll take this one here. And we were doing pretty good. Uh they were firing like hell. We were firing right back at him. And he was getting I think I couldn't see what he was doing, but I suspect he was doing about as much as I were crawling forward. And then all of a sudden one I see something flying over my head and uh I didn't realize what it was at the time. It was a hand grenade and it hit me and that was that was the end of that patrol. So anyhow I was in the hospital and it was a the hospital in those days at Anzio had to be dug in you know because every place on the whole the whole territory all of Anzio was under artillery fire all the time.

[00:01:21]All the time. Catf Welcome to World War II Live. I'm your host, John Mcmanis, alongside Kevin Heale. And you just heard there from Lieutenant John Fallon, who was a member of the 36th Engineer Combat Regiment at uh at Anzio. And of course, you know, there's a lot of um a lot of engineering going on in the wake of the uh the landings and especially in terms of developing the port of Anzio, which is of course vitally important. But kind just kind of an interesting little snippet there in terms of the intensity of combat too and how this particular guy gets wounded in in the middle of this. And uh we thought we would sort of build on what we've been discussing in relation to the Italian campaign and look at what is to some extent the locus of it all. Uh the the the landings in Anzio in late January 1944. Kevin, uh I imagine you're psyched up and ready to do this.

[00:02:10]>> Oh, I am ready, John. Tonight I am the star ski to your hutch. I love it. I love it. I mean, that show that was so awesome. I mean, >> big part of our childhood.

[00:02:23]>> It was >> really wanted a red car with that white stripe, you know, >> for sure. That car was that that car was just cool, wasn't it?

[00:02:30]>> And it, you know, fun to drive.

[00:02:33]>> It seemed like there were so many police and detective shows that just followed that formula where it was like two buddies and they always have like the black sergeant or or captain that they had to report to.

[00:02:43]>> Adobe. Yeah. And then they had like a pimp friend and like some woman that would like people that could always give them clues, you know, to to solve whatever the mystery was. I mean, just all different kind of cop and detective shows like that in the early 70s that just we just love watching.

[00:03:00]>> It was a formative thing. You know, little anecdote here, very quick anecdote. I I remember being jealous of a buddy of mine because his birthday was on the same day that Starin Hutch was running. You know, that that tells you the impact of the show. It's funny because my birthday was the same as Huggy Bear. So, you know, >> see, I'd be just as jealous of that, too. Huggy Bear was just cool. Uh, Antonio Fargus was his name, and he actually had a son who was a really good college football player, uh, I think University of Michigan, but I could be wrong about that.

[00:03:30]>> How the heck did you know that?

[00:03:32]>> Uh, you know, cuz I'm a nerdy sports fanatic, I guess, and I just remember his his son playing college football, but but that's the extent of my knowledge. But of course, we're not here to talk Starski and Hutch. We're here.

[00:03:43]>> No, no, no. Well, let's get let's get ourselves over to Italy and uh >> Yeah, let's get over to Italy. And to help along with that is a guy with an Italian surname, Mark Festosa. We haven't talked about that yet, have we?

[00:03:54]No, we haven't.

[00:03:54]>> Mark the gaseous producer.

[00:03:56]>> Yes. How you guys doing tonight? It's great. I'm uh definitely My family, I think, was from Naples.

[00:04:02]>> So, that would have been the Solerno campaign kind of moving up past there.

[00:04:07]But yeah, and my grandfather, my family didn't fight in Italy in World War II because my grandfather fought in the Italian army in the First World War.

[00:04:16]>> Oh wow.

[00:04:17]>> Up at one of the battles of the Ayanso River. There was like 13 of them.

[00:04:22]>> And he actually got gassed at the end.

[00:04:26]>> And uh came to the United States. And my dad remembers him, you know, with lung problems and coughing a lot from the war. So >> yeah, very common for World War I veterans, wasn't it? Mustard gas. Yep.

[00:04:38]And now Mark, either your dad or your grandfather big on jumping over barrels or is that just uh an ugly stereotype?

[00:04:47]>> Well, my grandfather did used to make wine in the cellar.

[00:04:51]>> Hey, was his name Mario by any chance?

[00:04:53]No.

[00:04:54]>> Did he have a brother?

[00:04:57]>> Goodness.

[00:04:59]>> We're going to have a new co-host next week.

[00:05:04]>> Applications are beingcepted. I could have gone good, fellas, but I didn't. I kept it clean here, guys. Come on.

[00:05:10]>> Wow. You really took the high road, didn't you?

[00:05:15]>> So, um, shall we delve in? John, what do you think?

[00:05:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. Just real quick before we do that, uh, I want to remind everybody to subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's so much fun. We're seeing those numbers tick up and so help us with that. And, uh, you know, on all the audio platforms, like, um, share, give us comments there. YouTube, give us questions for Stump the Chumps, which of course is uh at World War II livegmail.com. World War [email protected] with the Arabic numeral 2. And of course, Kevin, you know, you and I will be humiliated with the Stump the Chumps a little later in this episode. So, yeah, >> I've decided I'm not going to be humiliated this time. I' I've put down the gauntlet. I'm going to get everything exactly right with every question.

[00:05:55]>> Why didn't I We We should have thought of that before. I know. That sounds like a really good strategy.

[00:06:00]>> Let me bring up Google on my uh >> Yeah. Yeah, the little Google machine.

[00:06:05]Yeah. So, if only the the Allied commanders could have done that, maybe they would have been dissuaded from from trying this this Anzio junket. But, you know, it occurred to me, Kevin, that I mean, we when we talked about the Sicily campaign in some level of depth. Um, and especially in relation to to Patton and when when he was a commander of Seventh Army, he insisted on these outflanking amphibious invasions during the Sicily campaign and they were, you know, they were just battalion sized for the most part. This is the same concept in a way, just at a much larger scale. It's a it's a two division invasion involving the British first uh infantry division and the in the American third infantry division um in addition to many attachments, three Ranger battalion, so on and so forth. So, but but the point is it's it's a an outflanking amphibious invasion for a kind of stalemated front, right?

[00:06:49]>> That's that's you know what, >> couple dozen miles away or less. I don't know, something like that. Close enough.

[00:06:54]So John, to me the big difference is, you know, Patton launches these in Sicily and he's the army commander. He's on the ground, you know, really seeing the the the the terrain, the enemy resistance.

[00:07:08]Anzio is a concept developed by Winston Churchill when he was sick and recovering. I think it's from the Cairo conference and presents it to Mark Clark and Clark's like, I don't think this is a workable plan. But he's kind of forced and and it's like everybody has to swallow some element of Anzio. It's not, you know, it's not a Mark Clark idea.

[00:07:31]It's not a Lucas idea. You know, it's not any of the core commanders. Nobody thinks this is a really good idea. Um, but they got to do something to break up the the the the stalemate that's really kind of arrived after San Pedro. And um you know and John I always thought that and you tell me if I'm wrong cuz I just read an account that said you know the Anzio beach head the drive was for Rome.

[00:07:58]I thought the drive was for Casino to to to unite with the front south of Anzio.

[00:08:05]>> So there's several layers to this. Um, first of all, if we're being unkind to Churchill, I would maybe say that he shouldn't get involved in amphibious operations because Gallipoli was his idea and Anzio was his idea and he was against Normandy, you know. So, let's just say we're being anti-Church. I might be unkind to say that, but >> aren't we always critical of Hitler making all those kind of military decisions like you're the politician. I mean, and that was the great thing about Roosevelt and and Hitler's like, oh, by the time this decision gets to Roosevelt, I'll have kicked butt. No decision went to Roosevelt. Eisenhower is making the call, maybe talking to Marshall. And so here's Winston Churchill doing that same mistake.

[00:08:44]>> It's a it's a classic micromanagement kind of thing, but he gets his way. So the the the concept is if we invaded Anzio on January 22nd, 1944, and where is Anzio? It's about 20 some odd miles from from Rome. Y >> um and as I said, it's it's x number of miles behind that kind of semi-stalated front around Casino. um some of those battlefields we talked about in a previous episode, San Pedro, uh so on and so forth. So, the idea is that we can push uh on the main front and the Germans will be so weakened um by this outflanking amphibious invasion that they're going to have to siphon off forces to deal with that and you'll be able to move on that front. So, you'll have these kind of this kind of symbiotic relationship between the invasion front and the battlefront and somehow that'll that'll be the key to unlock this whole thing. And unfortunately it just, you know, doesn't quite work that way.

[00:09:35]>> And why doesn't it? I mean, we both know why, but I want to hear your take.

[00:09:40]>> Yeah. So, so my take is that this Anzio starts to go wrong from the beginning, which is the the the attack along the fifth army front, the main front along Casino and elsewhere. um that you're not able to make headway enough on the front to make Anzio really a tenable beach head for some sort of expansion beyond it. Um so right there even before you hit the beach at Anzio and the allies do achieve great surprise even before that Anzio has kind of been compromised in terms of what they were hoping to get out of it. Now at any moment of course that front could have cracked. I mean you know and the Germans are doing major crisis management. There's no question.

[00:10:21]I mean, they've been caught off guard by the allies. Uh, but but nonetheless, they've got enough combat power divisions in the area to deal with this.

[00:10:29]And the these are pretty good units, many of them, that they're going to converge on the Anzio front and also hold the line at Casino. Casino is such great defensive ground, you know, that um you know, isn't it? I mean, so it's it's really going to be tough to crack no matter what.

[00:10:43]>> You know, I think we could do a whole different episode on casino because you've got the the river crossings at Rapido River Crossing. that's a disaster. You've got the the monastery that's so controversial. Um and then Anzio is part of that larger campaign uh where everything is kind of failing on all fronts. But you know, we have to factor in the commander John Lucas who was kind of at Patton's elbow through through part sorry parts of Sicily as I lose my breath.

[00:11:16]And you know, he seems like he's going to be this aggressive commander, but I think the Italian ground campaign wears him down. And the idea of Anzio is not like this brilliant breakthrough, it's another burden on him. And so by the time even though he gets his troops ashore, they penetrate deep, both third infantry and the Ranger battalions that are attached uh first armor and then 45th is coming in. They start advancing and it's like he kind of retracts at the first sign of trouble and doesn't really take the high ground and you know Anzio is not tank country. I don't know why they're putting the first armor division in there. It's kind of swampy and things like that. Um and so it Lucas I I feel like he kind of loses his nerve. I really hate to throw that at somebody like that but I think that is the historical consensus. Well, there's a lot of problems um they already have. Uh Lucas is not the guy Clark wants in charge of six core. He's already fired uh Dolly, you know, during the Serno campaign, right?

[00:12:23]>> And then he actually uh Clark wanted to to choose Matthew Rididgeway to be the six core commander. He would have trusted implicitly. Um but that would have necessitated taking him away from you know the 82nd Airborne Division really as the kind of the senior airborne commander and other higherups including I think even Marshall were a little reluctant to do that and so there's this whole kind of political game and I don't mean it in terms of like the the you know party political parties and civilians. And I mean it in the military combat structure, army ground forces, Leslie McNair's balwack, he has a hand too in who's going to replace Dolly. And u remember Clark is junior to a lot of these guys who he may be commanding including Lucas. Um so he's a little worried that if he doesn't, you know, have McNair's input, he's going to kind of lose out on that and lose influence and maybe eventually lose his job as fifth army commander. So he kind of exceeds to to to getting Lucas as sixth of core commander because he's already there as you know kind of at Patton's elbow and uh keeping that diary which is quote quite quite interesting. Lucas was two years behind Patton at West Point. He's class of 1911. He was a cavalry officer initially then an artillery officer. Uh he was combat wounded in World War I. So you know he's a he's a quite a distinguished soldier but he never believes in this in this um invasion from the start. Neither does Clark really. But Lucas especially has serious concerns and and so he doesn't have his heart in it. He's not necessarily naturally aggressive >> uh the way his successor Lucen Truscuit will be. Um so he's not really thinking in terms of larger kind of offensive solutions. What he's thinking about like you said, you know, the the divisions have a a halting advance and then they kind of hunker down to develop that port. So we heard from that uh that gentleman who was in the the 36 engineer combat regiment. Um, a lot of the engineers are there to develop that port because that's what Lucas thinks he needs in order to sustain himself and to draw combat power, German combat power away from the fifth army front. He sees his mission as only that and that's the problem. uh you know whether you're else >> it it is and understandably so but it's also >> to me it's it's an interesting kind of juxtaposition because of course we've talked about this in previous episodes how Ridgeway opposed the the drop on Rome the potential drop on Rome and was kind of pushing back against that Lucas is pushing back against the Anzio concept from the beginning and Clark kind of is too but obviously as we've said the higherups kind of want this and so he's stuck with it but could he have done something different is saying no I will have no part of this or no he doesn't do that instead he kind of gets the worst of all worlds in the sense of saying I'll go ahead with it but only kind of half-heartedly and not that creatively >> can't do that to your men yeah >> can't and I don't know and and I'm not saying he's not in a hell of a spot because he is but I don't know that he's the exact right guy there and you know as you said he wears down his his diary is really fascinating >> I think he kind of proves he's not the right guy um because you know once the Germans counterattack. They compress that Anzio beach head so tight that there's not a square inch of Anzio that that a German artillery cannot reach.

[00:15:38]You know that the the walls are strong, but you know, it's not going to stop the artillery. The defenses are strong, but you know, I think even Ernie Pile, I think he gets up out of bed and an entire wall falls on his bed and he's like, "Oh my god, I just escaped death by that much." You know, the hospitals weren't even being spared.

[00:15:57]Yeah. So, we have three evac hospitals that are landed as part of the invasion force. I think the 93rd, 94th, and 95th and u they are under fire all the time.

[00:16:07]There's German air strikes too, of course. Um, and like you said, heavy artillery fire. This is where we have uh casualties among female nurses, too.

[00:16:15]But, you know, just just getting wounded doesn't get you out of this mess. You got to be evacuated from the beach head somehow. So the so what happens is that there's that initial window in which you've caught the Germans off guard and that's when you can do something to develop the situation that Lucas doesn't do that. So the controversy I've always thought about Anzio that that we often think of like in relation to Rome is not really feasible that we're not really going to get Rome I mean and and survive.

[00:16:43]>> Yeah.

[00:16:44]>> What we might be able to do is push inland to what's called the Alban Hills.

[00:16:47]high ground that broods over this pool table flat battlefield with the irrigation canals and all that kind of thing. Um so is it worth um risking your formations to move out and grab that high ground with the possibility that the Germans could envelop them, could cut them off. So what do you I mean Martin Blummenson your mentor did a whole chapter about that in one of the official histories which I think is quite fascinating. So my question to you is like what do you think?

[00:17:19]Do you think Lucas should have pushed for the push for the Alburn Hills regardless of the risk >> or do you think he was right to hunker down in the beach head as the like the only option the only thing he could do?

[00:17:28]No, I think uh in accordance with my guy Patton, you know, when you have the enemy on the run, you keep pressing, you know, and if you're, you know, I remember when when they when they gave Eddie command of uh 12 core, and he looks at the map, he goes, "Oh my god, we're so disorganized and units are all over the place." And Pat's like, "Well, yeah, but the enemy doesn't know that."

[00:17:51]You know, we just keep pressing on the enemy, keep them spooked. So, I mean, at least you got to take the high ground because I mean the what what happens to two Ranger battalions is tragic. I think they're like five survivors or something from those two is it three >> more.

[00:18:06]>> There's more, but it's so it's three battalions. And um so so this isn't until like the end of the month. It's the push for Cesterna Deatoria, which is like the main crossroads town pivot point to to move beyond the perimeter and um kind of kind of knife east for the most part, >> right? Um the three Ranger battalions are kind of through to their motto kind of leading the way and this is a meeting engagement where the Germans are massing forces to move in the other direction.

[00:18:33]The Rangers kind of become inshed in this whole mess and are fighting very hard but kind of just in a in a really terrible situation where a lot of them are captured or killed. Of course, >> John, I think it's important to remember that Rangers are light infantry. They they seldom ask for artillery support.

[00:18:51]They rely on surprise and quickness and it just doesn't work this time. It's so It's so sad. Yeah.

[00:19:00]>> Well, they're put in a terrible hopeless situation. And they're they're not, by the way, the the victims of a like calculated German ambush. The Germans don't have that kind of drop on us, but all of a sudden, you know, you've got all these Americans right in the Germans midst. And the Germans have more stuff.

[00:19:13]They got more firepower. They're massing heavier stuff. Like you said, this is light infantry. And the third division is moving two regiments in the neighborhood too that are kind of close to getting nailed as well, including my own seventh. And so they're in the middle of this fight as well. But but that's a little bit later.

[00:19:30]>> True.

[00:19:30]>> The early phase is when maybe Lucas could have pushed on to the Alban Hills.

[00:19:35]Uh and then but he it would have been a hell of a German reaction too. So he always maintained I had no other option but to develop the port and kind of hunker down. And uh, of course, eventually Clark fires him and succeeds him with trust cut into into February, I think.

[00:19:49]>> Well, so I just I'm going to jump in there because when they realize they had to get rid of um of Lucas, the word goes up the chain. I think it's General Alexander says, "We need an attacker like Patton."

[00:20:04]And sure enough, the word goes to Patton in England who's prepping for the invasion of Normandy, you know, and he's packing his bags. He's getting all ready. He's jazzed and you know I am critical of Patton about certain things but one of the best things about his leadership no small command was beneath him. I mean, here's a guy. He's an army commander being asked to step down to be a core commander in a desperate situation, and he's like, "How fast can I pack my bags?"

[00:20:32]>> You know, that that's his reaction. But I think they made the wise decision of taking the division commander of third infantry division, Trust Scott, who is there and knows the terrain and everything, and they promote him to core commander. And I really got a feeling that things started to change when trust God steps in.

[00:20:54]>> Oh, by the way, that was the patent factoid of our episode. Go on.

[00:20:58]>> There you go. We always have one and we find a way. But uh yeah, I mean it by contrast to Mark Clark who had a chance to to be the twocore commander, you know, after the disaster at Casterine or City Baoid, whatever you want to say, uh in North Africa. And he he's like, "No, I'm an army commander. I'm not stepping down to do that."

[00:21:17]was willing here, but but I do think they make the right call because Lucian Truscuit is every bit as aggressive.

[00:21:22]Now, he inherits a different situation though in the sense of a stalemate. The Germans have tried to snuff out the beach head in February. That's a whole story terms of the violence of the fighting there. Uh and of course, once again, as we've seen previously, Allied naval fire is so so important and so deadly and obviously Allied air, but also the the um the trenches they've dug. And we have the Anzio crouch.

[00:21:44]That's the way people walk because they're constantly under shellfire on the day. They're patrolling. There's no man's land. It's trench warfare by the time the Germans have failed in their object to snuff out the beach head, which by the way has consequences for Normandy >> because u you know Hitler had hoped that uh if he could you know snuff out the the quote Anzio abscess as he called it that the allies would not invade France or reconsider or whatever. And of course none of this ever happened. So, we have this kind of enforced stalemate that goes on for months uh which the allies have to feed more and more stuff in there just to keep that going. My point is is like you've got this really kind of uh tantalizing window for the first, let's say, 48 to 72 hours after you land and really catch the Germans off guard.

[00:22:27]What do you do with it? Um and and Martin says in in his chapter, Bllemenson, he kind of indicates that he thinks um Lucas probably should have tried to get that higher ground at the Alvin Hills. I agree with him, but I also fully understand that you're going to have a reaction to that. But but like you just said, you know, like what's the point of this then? You know, get moving. I mean, otherwise no matter what you do, you might as well try to press your advantage. And that's what the Allies do. Great. They're great at amphibious assaults, you know, it's it's their bi wick. Um, you I just want to add with Trrescot. So, I interviewed uh General Walter Kerwin uh when back in like 2006 2005 and he was a lieutenant probably by Anzio as a captain uh with the division artillery and Truscott gets a new brigadier general in charge of artillery. So he gives Kerwin full cart blanch, you know, authority. And he says, "Go around to all artillery units and coordinate all of our fire, you know, cuz we're going to try to jump off or we're going to defend, you know, against the Germans." So he takes this onear general around to all these artillery commanders and explains how they need to coordinate their fire and then say, "Is there anything you need from us?" you know, and then they go to the next command post and they and when they finish, um, this one star general had gone to West Point said, "I learned more just at your elbow for the last five hours than I did in my entire army career on how to coordinate artillery."

[00:23:58]So, I think that shows you the professionalism of Third ID and how Truscot is the right guy.

[00:24:04]>> He really is. Yeah. And I, of course, I'm partial to Third ID. Everybody knows that full disclosure.

[00:24:09]>> Yeah, that's your baby. They they were amazing and and they they fought so well. And by the way, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment that basically is decimated here. And then you know the other units we talked about 45th Division, First Armored, I mean you name it.

[00:24:22]>> The and and the British too. All the above. The valor of these guys is amazing. So I guess the the sort of wrap-up question is um do you think the Anzio landing was worth it?

[00:24:33]>> You know, I'm going to lean against no.

[00:24:36]I'm going to lean towards no. Uh, and John, the thing I think of, and I don't know the numbers well enough, but I do know the Lufafa does react. Um, and they've got, you know, artillery raining all over Antio. And it's like, how many LSTs, how many landing craft are you losing that's going to prevent your main invasion of Normandy, France from going in in May instead of June 6. So, yeah, I think it was it was a bad concept from the start. Uh Churchill said he was hoping to put a wild cat on shore and it turned out to be nothing but a a beached whale. Um and so, and I agree. Uh and it's an example of micromanagement from the top. The Allies were not immune. Um so, I'm going to say no, it was not worth it. Cost a lot of lives. Uh what about you? Go ahead and counterpoint me.

[00:25:30]No, there's no counterpoint. I I fully concur. I'm going to be the ugly American here and say this was just absurd and never should have been done.

[00:25:37]It was illconceived and they they should have been pulling the plug on the whole Italian campaign anyway. Um what was Rome really on balance in a way in the grand strategy of things? uh was it worth it to to expend all that all those resources and then to try and get tat and you know I should have said earlier when I was talking about uh Churchill's sort of sad wreck in relation to amphibious operations he was also against operation anvil/ dragoon the invasion of South France which by the way was pretty darn successful >> um so so great leader but not his strength >> I do have to push back a little bit about the whole campaign because at this point this is the only place the western allies are fighting the Germans on the ground and how do you tell Stalin, h we want to save guys and stuff like that. I think >> you've already told them you've already told them at Tyran we're about to invade France and so everything should be pointed toward that you you mentioned earlier you know the delay we we delay D-Day by a month because of Anzio because of the LST situation. Is that really worth it? Um, and >> it was not. But I do believe that the the campaign, the casino campaign was delivering for our allies, the Soviets, of like, look, we are committed. You know, they're throwing guys at the Germans and just getting mowed down. So, I'm I'm anti-anzio, but pro uh, you know, Monte Casino.

[00:26:59]>> Okay. I I'm you know I'm not because I think by that time we'd gotten everything important we could have out of the Italian campaign namely the Fosia airfields so that 15th Air Force and the RAF could contribute to the strategic bombing campaign which by the way the allies are doing and losing a lot of people while yes you're right the Soviets are losing a lot of people in the Eastern Front very true. Yeah, >> but um but we're about to have this massive invasion of France that the Soviets didn't have to worry about doing. So um you know, it's just a matter of a few months. So I that's only my view and maybe we ought to have a kind of point counterpoint discussion about that sometime. I don't know.

[00:27:34]>> So are you saying that Churchill was a chump?

[00:27:37]>> I'm saying we're chumps, but I'm saying is I'm I'm going to repeat what I said moments ago. Amphibious Ops not Winston Churchill's strength. He's he's good at other stuff, but not not quite that.

[00:27:47]>> Yeah. So, we are chumps.

[00:27:50]>> Oh, never mind. Never mind.

[00:27:52]>> There you go. Exactly.

[00:27:55]>> We're about to be exposed as chumps.

[00:27:57]But, as you said, you're going to get everything right. So, >> that's right. I've decided I'm nailing every question. Woohoo. What do you got, Mark? Bring it on.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah. No, no chance, Kevin.

[00:28:08]>> I got I got more I got three questions all about the P38 in the Pacific.

[00:28:12]>> Oh, goodness gracious. You got more of those in the holster.

[00:28:16]>> And the German assault on the French coast of 45. And >> that's right.

[00:28:23]>> Just before we start stump the chumps, though. Uh, no change yet. Knocking off the top couple movies in our World War II movies. It's still patent number one and Saving Private Ryan, a bridge too far. So, we want to hear from you. Send us an email. Let us know your top World War II movies at World War II livegmail.com.

[00:28:47]>> And we're getting close, you know, again, end of the summer. I think we were gonna we're gonna pick our top movies to do it.

[00:28:52]>> Let's hear it from all those patent fans. Yeah. All right.

[00:28:55]>> Thinking of movies, as you guys were blathering on, I was remembering the World War II movie I've probably watched the most, right? Because I think I've said in the past it was on the local TV at least once a month.

[00:29:08]>> Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me guess. Let me guess. It's um Battleground.

[00:29:11]>> It's a Helen back.

[00:29:13]>> Oh, >> Audi Murphy.

[00:29:14]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:29:15]>> Great actor portraying Audie Murphy.

[00:29:17]>> Yeah, he he was he was pretty good.

[00:29:20]>> It's amazing how he got him down.

[00:29:22]>> He looked just like him.

[00:29:23]>> He looked a little too old for the role, but Yeah.

[00:29:26]>> Yeah. I guess.

[00:29:27]>> Yes.

[00:29:28]>> Um I have a vivid memory though is there's a scene where his best friend gets killed and I was watching it at a friend's house.

[00:29:36]>> Mhm. And we're we were just enrapped and then I heard this sobbing and I turned around and my friend's mom was crying. I was like, "Wow."

[00:29:42]>> Oh my god.

[00:29:44]>> But there's a scene in there when he's fighting in Anzio. So Audi Murphy was in Anzio. Third division.

[00:29:50]>> Part of the 15th Infantry of Third Division. Great unit.

[00:29:53]>> Mark, who's the first person you see in that movie?

[00:29:57]>> Oh, I don't remember that. It's got to be a >> Right. Right. He gives the lecture from his like wooden desk.

[00:30:05]>> Yeah. you know, in his khaki uniform and his ulcer throbbing.

[00:30:10]>> I have that on DVD. I'll have to break it out, watch it again.

[00:30:12]>> Back it out.

[00:30:13]>> Yeah, I've got it on VHS. I'll have to blow the dust off.

[00:30:17]>> Yeah. All right. So, I'll uh I'll look up a little bit about what he actually did there because I think in the movie they're fighting for a farmhouse and a German tank comes by and they >> Oh, they blow the track off the tank. Is that drank rescue?

[00:30:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like full of mud. And there's this scene where >> there's Germans in the house and he's out of grenades. So his friend pulls the pin, throws him a live grenade, then he throws it in the room, right?

[00:30:45]>> I remember that part. But >> there. Okay.

[00:30:48]>> Risky.

[00:30:49]>> Let's get on to what the world wants to know from you guys.

[00:30:52]>> Mark, throw John the grenade that he can throw to me.

[00:30:56]>> Okay.

[00:30:57]>> That's what Stump the Chumps feels like.

[00:31:01]The first one is from Thomas Gonzalez.

[00:31:04]>> Thomas, >> he's from Parker. Parker, Colorado.

[00:31:09]>> Okay.

[00:31:10]>> He says, "Could you talk about the impact and mission of the OSS in neutral Spain during World War II?

[00:31:17]>> Spain was officially nonbelligerent, but it was a hub for access and allied intelligence activity.

[00:31:24]My grandfather served as an OSS agent at the US embassy in Madrid from 44 to 45.

[00:31:32]And I'm curious how the OSS operated in that environment, what their priorities were, how much influence they had, and how their work fit into the larger Allied intelligence picture. Love the show.

[00:31:45]>> Yeah. So, I mean, I know all about this.

[00:31:47]there were OSS agents actually in the American embassy in Spain mostly 44 to 45 and okay now I'm just I'm just repeating everything he said but um no in general uh and this kind of exists today too with the CIA they are kind of a part of the embassy and they are supported by the military and the diplomats um their job is simply to collect information um whether it be you know words on the street or any other kind of enemy intelligence. Now, in a place like neutral Spain, I don't think they would be breaking into other embassies or anything like that. I think their duties would be kind of light, but I think they would be briefing the ambassador on topics to bring up with um um Oh, John, who's the head of Spain? Um >> Franco. John Franco. Yeah. Um, so things like that, like in a in a neutral country, you're not doing the same kind of black ops that the OSS is doing in, you know, places like France and Belgium, you know, where they're doing night drops and working with them. But, you know, um, it's it's kind of it was it wasn't really a secret the OSS being in neutral countries because, you know, John Foster Dulles is over there. Um, you know, I think he was in in Austria or something like that. And the Germans would sometimes play the OSS. They would disseminate false information about the national readout that they're supposedly building in southern Germany that causes such a distraction for the Western Allies. And that was something that, you know, was a pretty smart move by the Germans in implanting this stuff in newspapers and they knew the Americans were suspicious of it and so they exploited it. So that's that's my brief answer. John, what do you think?

[00:33:33]>> Yeah. Um, I would also I mean I can't speak to like the the nuts and bolts of exactly what the OSS guys are doing all the time in Madrid in particular, but it it's it's pretty clear what the focus is earlier on. Now, this is before your grandfather would have been there. Um, there's a lot of concern in 1942 that this that in 4142ish that the Spanish are going to get into war on the Axis side and uh that they're going to move through Spanish Gibralar and Spanish Morocco or Spanish Morocco, excuse me.

[00:34:02]They're going to move on Jibralar. Um there's you know there's a lot of intel going on in in relation to that and uh if you are involved with the OSS at that time you know you're you're very concerned with that by the time of 44 and 45 not concerned. Um now that's that's a kind of different element of the kind of cloak and dagger going on with whatever axis spies you've got there and that's mainly German spies. So probably a lot of shadowing um a lot of intel gathering and what you know what kind of German involvement you have in the country what Franco's intentions are too um you know what what is all going to happen and before that uh I would have to think OSS is either either involved or some are aware of operation mincemeat which is of course a major clandestine operation to try and fool the uh the Germans and the Italians into to thinking an invasion is not coming at Italy and that's the famous one where you know they they float photo body ashore. It's a gentleman who uh in in Britain had eaten rat poison and and died and was in the morg and whose body they use basically as a as a kind of decoy and it's partially successful. Um that's exactly the kind of the thing the OSS would be involved in though that's a British op you know. So um so again I I can't necessarily speak to the nuts and bolts but that's the general orientation of what you're doing there. By the end of the war, of course, now the concern is escaping Nazis and uh where they're going to go, whether Franco's going to shield them, um how all that fits together, what are the uh what are the German intentions um you know, in relation to surrender, all of that kind of stuff. Um so it had to be a pretty interesting job, I I would think. You know, John, I'm glad you mentioned the part about the Allies concern about Gibralar and um Spanish Morocco because the allies land in French Morocco right on that border and that is something that is very acutely addressed to Patton to the point where he actually sends, you know, the first armored division kind of up to make a demonstration. uh they put on a parade for the Italians and the Italians really don't I'm sorry the Italians the Spanish the Spanish really don't have tanks the way we do uh you know much more developed medium tanks because in the the Spanish civil war they were using light tanks and things like that. So, um, that was that was a heavy concern of the allies was Spain getting involved on the Axis side >> and Franco was very very intelligent to stay out of it and Hitler lobbyed him hard and that was mainly like in the fall of 1940.

[00:36:36]>> Well, he does give a division, the blue division, I think it's called Soviet Union. Yeah.

[00:36:42]>> Yeah. That's unofficial off the book.

[00:36:44]So, like yeah, if you're committed enough, you want to go, go ahead.

[00:36:47]>> That was a volunteer division, right?

[00:36:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. So that's not on the opaces of the Spanish government. Uh and so this is basically Hitler coming to Franco saying, "Hey, we helped you during your civil war. You owe us. You need to get into the war now. Strangle off Gibralar and that's really going to bring the British to the table. That's what he thinks." And he maybe would have been right. But Franco very wisely decides to stay out of this mess. He's got enough to do to consolidate his own power in that country. And he's he's a horrifying leader. He's one of the he's one of the worst monsters that we kind of don't know about or talk about that much. uh they're still finding massacre sites uh as a result of that regime in parts of Spain. There's still a lot of bitterness over that as you can really imagine the civil war and what came after. Um but in the long term it's why Franco's regime is able to survive because he's not part of the Axis powers and part of that whole mess and eventually he's going to be pretty cozy with us during the Cold War. Not as a full NATO member but certainly friendly to NATO and that's you know a little bit of one of those sort of hiccups you're just like let's not talk about that. uh you know let's let's let's let's focus on something else. But you know >> it's funny you say that John because that it's going to have repercussions in the United States because the two waring fashions factions of the Spanish Civil War are fascists and communists and Americans go over to fight. Um I think it was what the Abraham Lincoln brigade fights on the communist side. And so all those Americans who come back really get black ballalled in the 50s. And a lot of them were experienced combat leaders in the army in the military in World War II, but you know the the their reputations get trashed in the 50s because of that. And I've I've actually seen I friend applying for a government job back in the 80s and it's like were you a member of any of these groups and the Abraham Lincoln brigade is in there and that's the 1990s that they're asking that question.

[00:38:41]>> Isn't that interesting? And it it was by the way it was selective enforcement because see what happened is technically like if you went to go fight in Spain as an American citizen you were violating federal law the neutrality acts um that said you know we were not to be involved in this cuz we had had that in World War I. And it's one of the things that led us into the war. So on either side, you could be prosecuted, I suppose, but it's more selective against the Lincoln Brigade cuz believe you me, there were plenty of Americans who fought on Franco's side, too. We don't remember that as much anymore, >> but they're basically >> they're fighting with the fascists. Now, both sides don't think of themselves as fascists and communists, but really they are. Um, so >> they're freedom fighters, John. They're freedom fighters.

[00:39:19]>> I tend to say, you know, a plague on both their houses in that sense, but I but I totally understand the passions of the moment. Uh, so to to kind of circle back to the to the question, all of that, you know, I mean, when the gentleman's grandfather was there, the hangover of all that, you know, probably would have been quite >> good to put it. Yep.

[00:39:39]>> Yeah.

[00:39:40]>> All right, we got an A on that. Mark next.

[00:39:44]>> Kind of nailed the diffusal.

[00:39:46]>> I think I think we talked about the Blue Division before on this show.

[00:39:50]>> We mentioned it. I because yeah I've done some a little work on reading about them and they >> uh they solved a problem for Franco because the people that volunteered were ultrafascists like way to the right of him and they wanted to kill communists so bad he's like you want to go to Russia >> go ahead they had a big parade metal said go and they marched off and they were in the siege lines outside of Lennenrad >> and they were just a pure leg infantry division with like 37 millimeter anti tank guns and that was it.

[00:40:22]>> Eventually they got worn down to nothing and wiped out.

[00:40:25]>> Yeah. He could go to Hitler and say, "Look, I gave you a whole division, right?

[00:40:28]>> You know, I'm not screwing you over. I appreciate what you did. Here's my here's my craziest people. Here's my flat my flatearthers."

[00:40:37]>> So, yeah, he got rid of his own problem and all that. Yeah. Also, I I had uh I think I read somewhere I've done a lot of reading about, you know, the battle of Britain and as you said, John, you know, Hitler was pressing Franco hard right at that time, right? France had fallen.

[00:40:54]>> Everything was going Germany's way. And Franco was he was that was probably the closest he ever was to joining. But when the Battle of Britain didn't work out, >> that told Franco, "No, I'm not going to do it." So, Battle of Britain, huge, huge, huge impacts, right?

[00:41:10]>> Yeah. Great point.

[00:41:11]>> Ripple effects.

[00:41:12]>> Ripple effects. Yeah.

[00:41:13]>> All right. I give myself an A on that one. There we go.

[00:41:18]>> You robbed me of my >> Yeah.

[00:41:21]>> All right. Here we go. Now, I got a feeling these next two are you. You guys just better get an A. These are some some good softballs for you guys. You're gonna like Okay, the next one >> is from Pete Taylor from New Jersey.

[00:41:34]>> Hey, Pete. Glad to hear from you, man.

[00:41:36]He says, 'Hello guys, love your show. My uncle was in World War II in the 89th Division. When I was a younger kid watching episodes of the TV show Combat, I would ask him if he killed any Germans, and he would say it was all just marching, nothing like a TV show.

[00:41:53]After he passed, we found that he had won the Bronze Star for capturing a machine gun nest with five soldiers.

[00:41:59]>> Mhm.

[00:42:00]>> He said that he was with the Third Army and wound up in Czechoslovakia at the end of the war.

[00:42:05]Do you gentlemen know anything about the 89th Division?

[00:42:10]>> I I do, but if you want to go first, Kev, that that's fine.

[00:42:13]>> No, I'm draw I'm drawing a blank right now. John, who's the division? Oh, wait a second. Is this the Double Eagle Blackhead?

[00:42:18]>> It's the Rolling W's. Um that's the 89th Infantry Division.

[00:42:22]>> Okay. So, they're going to cross the Ryan River up near um uh the Laurelai Mountains or the the Laurelai Cliff. Uh their regular they they come into the line late, but um God, I'm trying to think. Was it Wyman was the commander or again maybe it's like fine I can't think of the commander's name.

[00:42:41]>> I don't remember the commander but but they so the division actually is in the central part of Germany and they're part of first army during the last stage of the war. Uh so they're driving in VHimar that central part of Germany and they're the ones who actually liberate Orurof on April 4th 1945 along with um fourth armor division right >> because you're like crossattaching in these joint task uh joint uh combined arms task forces so those two divisions are sort of melded together and the 89th then has this really horrifying experience of discovering the first concentration camp from an American perspective in Germany and um So, some of these guys had seen, you know, pretty pretty heavy combat for a couple of weeks. It was a fairly new unit, but you can just imagine how that experience characterized things for the for the division that much more. Now, I don't know where they were on on VE day, but I do know that that is like the kind of the central experience for the 89th division in World War II.

[00:43:38]>> Yeah. So, he says that they go into uh Czechoslovakia. I I don't think so. That 16th armored first infantry division. Um I'm trying to think the other units that go in cuz we kind of go in in two different places. One south and the other one farther kind of east, but uh they are they are instrumental in crossing the Rine uh south I think of Laurelai Rock. And the idea here was Patton cross the R crosses the Ryan River on March 22nd uh near Verms at a place called Oppenheim. And the reason he chooses this area is right across, and we've talked about this before, instead of the big hills that we all seen along the Rine, it's flat on the other side. So the Germans can't really, you know, rain fire from the high ground. So there's that successful landing on the 22nd. And then he has follow-up landings all along the Rine.

[00:44:33]And he goes to Troy Middleton, one of his core commanders, and Middleton says, "I want to attack at Laurelai Rock. And Patton goes, are you crazy? That's a mountain. you know, it's it'll be easy to defend and everything. And Middles says, "No, because it's so tough, the Germans won't defend it. I'm confident I can land south and north of it and take it." And Patton says, "Okay." And that's exactly what they do. In fact, the 89th goes up and they raise their division penant on top of Laurel Rock. There's a great photo of that. Um, and then of course, Patton takes full credit. It was my idea. you know that that typical patent attitude about it. But I'm I'm sorry, but no, he may have visited Czechoslovakia at the end of the war like a lot of soldiers did. But the 89th, I really don't think they were part of of entering um uh Czechoslovakia because according to you, yeah, they they transfer to first army. Um but they are they do cross the line under George S. Patton. Um, yeah. In fact, I want to say when they came into the line, it was right around the Battle of the Bulge and the Division >> was later than that, >> but it's it's like in January, I want to say.

[00:45:44]>> I think it's even later than that. But I we should check that, but I So, I think >> because I want to say they had a problem with um with Trenchoot and they were thinking about relieving the Division Commander, but then, you know, he got his act together. But I I'll double check on that. I thought they'd come into play like in the spring and uh there so um I'm trying to remember their casualties. I think they they suffered like 300 fatalities in the course of the war and that was just in about a month and a half of combat something like that.

[00:46:13]>> I don't know that they were really in like the the bulge or or that immediate aftermath or even the SAR and Rhineland well maybe s the Rinland but the SAR campaign.

[00:46:24]>> Yeah. Um, >> I'm going to cheat because I know I have a picture of Lurai Rock in my book. And in fact, here it is. This is them.

[00:46:33]Finley's. That's it. Finley 89th. That's a photograph. Very famous photograph of the >> So, he's showing for the Oh, yeah. The famous So, that's one of the river crossings. So, the So, if you're on the the um uh the audio, uh Kevin just showed a picture, and I'm sure many of you have seen this picture. It's a It's Americans on a uh like what? An LVT?

[00:46:53]Something like that.

[00:46:54]>> Actually, it's a duck.

[00:46:56]>> Oh, it's a duck.

[00:46:57]>> The interior. Yeah.

[00:46:58]>> And they're clustered together and they're on a river crossing toward the end of the war and they look very very frightened. Um you know, I don't know if I'm describing it very well, but I know many of you have seen the picture. It's kind of iconic.

[00:47:09]>> I want to say they even used it on the front cover of Time magazine back in the 80s on one of the the big anniversaries of the end of the war. You know, the crossing of the R. In fact, I want to say they used it on their D-Day issue and they got a lot of push back like that's not Normandy. That's the Ryan River.

[00:47:26]>> Nope, that is not Normandy.

[00:47:28]>> Yeah. So, I won't I won't cheat anymore.

[00:47:30]But yeah, was definitely >> but I do know for sure that you know that they are the liberators of Ordruff, one of the two divisions that liberates Ordruff and that is April 4th, 1945. And that was a very very big deal. And of course you know of course that um your friend Patton alongside Eisenhower and Bradley will visit. I think it's eight days later.

[00:47:50]>> Yep. I was just talking to Paul Woodage about that on his show. Um you know John uh our good friend Peter Katak Adams wrote about the liberation of the camps and you know we all have written about you've written a brilliant book on it but the sentence or two we had in there that I were really profound you know everybody writes about how they when they see these sites these battleh hardened veterans they get sick you know that that even though they've been through all this fighting what they see is so horrific and what Peter Katakadam stressed is that decades later after the war just those images in their head that were so burned in still affect them. you know, it still makes them cringe and you know, it's like, oh, everybody addressed the immediiacy of it, but Peter Peter Katakadams did a great job of talking about the the long-term psychological effect. You know, what what an imprint that was on everybody's brain, >> which was profound, and that's one of the things that caused me to write the book, honestly, is knowing or knowing of so many people who fit exactly that category, >> being very drawn to that.

[00:48:54]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:54]>> Yeah.

[00:48:55]>> All right, Mark. How we do? That was good. That's a really good one.

[00:49:00]>> I feel bad that I had to cheat and look at a book, but >> wow, >> it was my book.

[00:49:08]>> All right, let's go to the last question.

[00:49:11]It's from Jeff Hatch.

[00:49:14]>> Jeff.

[00:49:16]>> And he says, "Hello, gentlemen. We all know the story of the 101st Airborne and the 10th Armored in the siege of Baston.

[00:49:23]>> Never heard of it.

[00:49:26]You got to learn something about World War II, would you please?

[00:49:30]>> Less well known is the Battle of St. V and the story of the Seventh Armored and the 82nd Airborne.

[00:49:37]>> Mhm.

[00:49:38]>> Both groups of airborne and armored divisions were sent to those key crossroad towns with a similar mission.

[00:49:44]Hold at all costs. Why was Baston successfully held while St. V was eventually lost to the Germans? My neighbor was an infantry member of the seventh armored combat command B. After holding off for three days, he and his platoon found themselves behind enemy lines and were captured while trying to sneak back to the American lines. Thanks for your advice and for your insight.

[00:50:07]>> Yeah. Um, so Seventh Armored, well, St. Ve, uh, that is the 106th Infantry Division is on the line and they pretty much get the worst hit of anybody. They lose two entire regiments. General Jones uh is the division commander. He loses two regiments that get basically encircled and surrender. Um and so once Eisenhower realizes what is happening with this German, he realiz you know I think the words are this is not a German attack. It's a counteroffensive. He he he sees it for what it is as soon as he sees the maps and whatnot. and his first order of business is to turn the seventh armored division south into the fight.

[00:50:52]And obviously the the the spearhead of that is going to be under Bruce Clark uh the combat command. And he is pretty much and Patton in all of my research he is Patton's favorite armored commander.

[00:51:06]Uh he was with the fourth armored division. He was like a freaking re he was like a fire truck everywhere that that there was a fire broke out. you know, Bruce Clark was there fixing it, you know, turning the situation around.

[00:51:18]Um, and he fights his fight. In fact, he kind of takes over for Jones, uh, because Jones kind of implodes. And to me, John, one of my favorite, most dramatic scenes in all of this fighting is, you know, everything's mud and they're having no idea how they're going to pull back. And he's on the radio, I don't know if it's with Ridgeway or who the core commander is, and he's like, "We can't pull back." Maybe it was the division commander and he goes, "It's too muddy." And then he walks out and he steps in the dirt and it's starting to freeze and he's like, "We can do this."

[00:51:50]And it's because of the the the the drop in temperature that he's able to get his tanks out. Um and you know where where and John you and I talked about this.

[00:52:00]Ridgeway originally wanted to do the encirclement like Baston but realize I have an armored division. It's not going to work. Uh John, you pick it up from here.

[00:52:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. So um number of elements to this the the 106 actually that that debacle for them happened at the Schneay IEL not not really at Sith they had retreated the remnants had retreated to Senith so they're part of the mix with the seventh armored division uh which is not wholly intact at that point either and the 82nd Airborne Division is sort of nearby at Verbamont. Okay so you've got you've got a bit of a different terrain in front than you have at Baston. Baston is a really tough town to take if you're up against an enemy that is in a position to put together combined arms task forces at the entry points to Baston because yes, Baston is a crossroads town with the seven roads converging there which makes it important in that early phase but also it is ringed by little towns like that uh you know like around Warden and um Longville and Noville most famously the Germans have to take those in order to get to Baston. And of course, when they're they're cost so much time by the 28th division, it means that um and and the CCR of the 9th armored too, by the way, it means that uh the 100 airborne in tandem with CCB 10th armored is going to be just simply too potent a nut to crack and so they'll envelop and encircle it. Sanvith is a little bit different terrain in that the the encirclement there would probably mean annihilation for uh the remnants of the seventh armored division and that's what Rididgeway has to kind of realize in the course of events in the course of about a day or so or less uh because you're right initially he was thinking in terms of kind of holding the ground >> and and really actually he was thinking in terms of attacking I think we tend to forget that this is Ridgeway after all uh and so he's like we're not just going to hold the ground we're going to just beat the crap out of these guys and attack them. um this is not really realistic for the first, you know, phase of this. But I'd also point out that on that northern shoulder there, they're probably facing some of the toughest parts of the German offensive uh that are part of 6S Panzer Army. And not just, you know, not exclusively there.

[00:54:09]I'm not saying that because you've also got an arguably even more important fight happening at the Twin Villages and uh at at Elenborn Ridge, you know, so on and so forth, Piper and all that business. Um, but the terrain and the the kind of tactical situation at San Viv is different than Baston in that respect. It's not as good at defendable ground. And uh and so that changes the dynamic. And and of course, you're right. It's like when when they do decide in that retrograde, they're worried about most the vehicles getting bogged down and they get a break and that the weather gets really cold that particular night and they extract, you know, the bulk of the of what is there from the Division. Now, Clark's I would argue Clark's boss uh Robert Hasbro really has a much more uh much greater imprint on the whole battle than does Clark. Um Clark is almost ready to pack it in by that point in a way. He's he's plagued by kidney stones.

[00:55:07]>> He's eventually going to have to be hospitalized in England.

[00:55:09]>> Very painful for him. Yeah.

[00:55:11]>> Extremely painful for the guy. He's he's weary. He's been fighting hard. He's lost a lot of his combat command. Um Hasbro is the larger division commander and he's going to have to fill that vacuum that Jones has created and Rididgeway fires Jones and and so he Ridgway basically turns Hasbro into this sort of task force or almost like division plus commander um through through this whole thing which is really quite interesting I think. But uh so Clark um eventually when they have that retreat um yeah you know they kind of reform but Ridgeway being Rididgeway he wants some of the the key terrain back including a town called Manhee and um and Clark is just not up to to leading that attack.

[00:55:51]He's designated leaded and doesn't work out well and uh so this is partially why he and Rididgeway kind of get sideways long term. uh it doesn't it's not really a a positive in Clark's ledger in that respect, but part of it in fairness to the guy is that he's sick. He's got these kidney stone problems that are really plaguing him. Plus, the weather's awful. So, I hope Billy that begins to attempt to answer the question, but it's it's a really insightful question.

[00:56:17]>> You know, I read the memoir of a colonel. I think he may have been the guy that took Bruce Clark's place because he talked about what is it?

[00:56:25]>> Triplet.

[00:56:26]>> Yes. Uh triplet.

[00:56:28]>> Yeah. So he wrote a great memoir and so he comes in I guess he takes over for Clark and he talks about the kidneys and how he's really gruff with him.

[00:56:36]>> He's a colleague of Clark and he he absolutely hated Clark. Um he was he was another like combat commander like CC commander in the seventh.

[00:56:46]>> Yeah. And so um when he comes in you know that the unit had already pulled out of SV and so he's you know looking at all the recommendations for awards and there's one for a guy in a light tank and it they were pulling out at night and he gets into this column and as they're pulling out at night he realized he's in a German column and there's a Panther tank in front of him.

[00:57:13]So instead of pulling out of the line and getting back to the American lines, he opens fire on a Panther tank and a lucky shot goes through the exhaust and he knocks the tank out. He's like, I was never more proud to write him a recommendation for a soldier.

[00:57:30]I thought that was there's there's your seventh armored story right there, man.

[00:57:34]Jes.

[00:57:35]>> Yeah. Yeah. Check out Triplet's book.

[00:57:38]It's fascinating.

[00:57:38]>> Yeah. He wrote two books. one where he's experimenting with armor amphibious stuff at in California and then he gets sent over to uh I think he at first he I think he goes with Brooks's third armored or no it wasn't Brook it was Brooks but it wasn't Third Armored uh and he didn't like it so he got transferred to Seventh Armored U and fights the war from there but yeah real up close uh fighting uh in that book >> and he was a World War I veteran who had seen action in that war too and he was a West Pointer and and a very perceptive guy. Yeah. Good soldier all around.

[00:58:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:12]>> Yep. All right, Mark. How we doing on that?

[00:58:15]>> Good job. Good job. I'm sure we're gonna delve into that in future episodes.

[00:58:19]>> You're not gonna give yourself an A for that, Mark.

[00:58:21]>> No, >> the old president. So, I mean, that's just implicit, I guess. But >> yeah, I get A++ for asking a question.

[00:58:29]>> There you go. For everything.

[00:58:32]>> All right. Okay, guys. What you up to?

[00:58:34]>> Well, let's see.

[00:58:35]>> What you >> Yeah. Um, so there were two things I wanted to talk about. One, uh, when I went to Rahobit Beach with my buddy Lucho, uh, we went biking and we went by these concrete towers that date back to actually created for World War II. And I remember them as a kid going to Rahobit and Dewey Beach and and Ocean City and you would just see these watchtowers out along the beach and, you know, as kids, we would say like, "Oh yeah, those guys were out there spotting Ubot." And when you think about it, the logic is pretty bad that there's no no Yubot commander kind of like, you know, rose, you know, brought his ship out of the water there.

[00:59:14]But they were they were really initiated in 1939. Fear of German ships, you know, attacking the Americans. Um, and say they actually laid minefields down off the beaches and they could turn off the minefields when cargo ships passed over and then turn them back on. And it was always twin towers because they would triangulate the distances and they did have artillery guns located in certain places. But it was neat because it was something that was such a part of my childhood. Uh always driving by these things and now they've turned a couple of them into museums and so you can go and read about them. And in fact I took a photograph of one of the uh historical plaques explaining you know why they were built and what they did. So, uh, anybody who lives in the Mid-Atlantic region and goes to the beach in the summer or has been knows what I'm talking about with these tubular concrete towers. So, that was one thing.

[01:00:08]And then, as I mentioned to you earlier, uh, I watched the Battle of Britain, the old 1960s movie the other night, and the action was actually really good. you know, it's like how do we keep air battles interesting from one air battle to the next because they're all kind of similar. But they they made it enough, you know, and I think what they drove home really well is that the Germans were uh not as much decimating the cities and the towns as the southern airfields where the RAF is trying to take off and defend England. And the Germans are actually doing a pretty good job of it until they get sucked into the attacking on attacks on London and things like that. The acting is good.

[01:00:48]Um, but the, like I said, the romance thing is just so outdated where, you know, Christopher Plamer is furious at his wife for having a an upfront job. I guess she's a a ren or whatever they call the ladies pushing the stuff across the map and he wants her to get some safer job. And okay, honey, I think you're right. you know, just that whole very maledominated uh you know, the guys have all the money, they're going to be paying tickets. So, um that was the only lacking part. But, uh but overall, the movie kept its cohesion and if you're interested in the Battle of Britain, it's a perfect movie to watch. What about you, John? What you >> It is. It's a I mean, that movie has amazing footage because it's the real planes and >> Yes.

[01:01:29]>> I think the Spanish Air Force, John, was that it that they incorporated? Yeah.

[01:01:33]>> Yeah. Yeah, that they had all the vintage they got all the equipment from Hitler after the during World War II that he wouldn't use that Franco wouldn't use.

[01:01:41]>> How ironic, you know. Wow. So, yeah. And so, speaking of movies, um, so wanted to mention a movie that that I watched this past week. Um, it's called Labyrinth of Lies. It's actually a German film.

[01:01:54]>> And, you know, we we know a lot about the Nermberg trials and of course, we just had the Nermberg movie that came out in the last year or so. Um, that's kind of famous, that side of the whole war criminal thing. But I, but I think we tend to forget that another kind of crucial component to to finding and bringing some of these war criminals to justice, and there was by no means as many as should have been or anywhere near majority, >> uh, was done in the Federal Republic of Germany in West Germany within the German legal system itself. And uh that was no sure thing that most Germans uh you know particularly in the Federal Republic just kind of wanted to to cover up the war and move on. Some of them had been Nazis or had been compromised here and there morally uh or otherwise. Um uh some hadn't but but it was just a tough thing for society to face and I think most were willing to sweep it under the rug. And and so this movie is about a young German prosecutor who's kind of a composite character representing many others who kind of come at this um you know in the late 50s and around the early 60s and say no we need to track these guys down including like Joseph Mangala uh Adolf Ikeman are the two famous ones but there's all sorts of other not so famous guys uh who were like an unersharfer at Oshvitz or you know that that kind of thing and um and there's a lot of resistance within uh like the the German attorney general's office uh the prosecutors and uh although the attorney general himself supports it and that is a key uh but there's a there's a young guy who was not an adult in World War II and he has to kind of push hard for this and he has to come to terms with his own family's past because he had always thought his dad was an anti-Nazi and finds out that wasn't quite 100% true. Um, so that's kind of interesting, but it's uh it's again it's a German movie with uh with subtitles and I I highly recommend that because it's uh it's a side of the whole aftermath of the war that I that I don't think we we really think about and you really come away with and saying, "Wow, all that effort and they they got what maybe a couple dozen guys, you know, I mean, how many others got away with this?" But even so, it was something and it set a legal precedent for afterwards too, >> which I think is important to to remember. And the the thing that's really jarring, >> this is what I want to mention, >> especially for us in this day and age.

[01:04:13]If I I would venture to say if we walked out on the on the street most anywhere and we mentioned the name Ashwitz, the bulk of adults uh would know that, right? They would associate that as a like a death camp and and the Holocaust.

[01:04:28]But you see, and this is so true, like in the late 50s in Germany, people didn't know anything about it.

[01:04:34]>> Never heard of it. Like he visits a library. He's like, "Uh, yeah, I'm looking for books on this." And and the the librarian's like, "What's the place called again?" You know, and like, "Oh, we only have two books on that. One is out of print and the other I can order for you'll be here in like 2 months or something." And you know, we're like, "This is Oshwitz. That's what we associate with the Holocaust." Everybody thinks that. And yet in that era, it's like nope.

[01:04:56]>> Wow. No idea. What a fantastic perspective. You know, this thing we just assume is so well covered up back then, you know, that they nobody acknowledges it. John, the name of the movie again, >> uh, the name is called Labyrinth of Lies. I think it came out about 10 years ago, something like that.

[01:05:13]>> Okay.

[01:05:14]>> Uh, it's it's really really well done.

[01:05:16]And >> the characters all wearing like thin black ties and smoking cigarettes and >> typical 1950s.

[01:05:22]>> Woo. There's a lot of spoking in this uh in this movie. Holy mackerel.

[01:05:28]>> As much as the Battle of Britain like glad I wasn't on that set because man it was I'm glad I wasn't around in that era cuz that >> that was there was some seriously blacktard lungs in the 40s 50s and 60s man. Jesus >> for sure and beyond. What an image.

[01:05:45]Yeah. So on that uh on that cheery note of of black [ __ ] lungs, we've really covered it all, you know, from from Starsky and Hutch to to, you know, to Anzio to Black [ __ ] Lungs and everything in between. World War II live, you get it all. I mean, you talk about the total package. So, speaking of that, the last point I'll make, uh, please send us questions for Stump theChump World War II [email protected].

[01:06:09]And, uh, you know, subscribe on YouTube, uh, like, share, give us comments on the audio platforms and elsewhere. Uh, be part of this journey with us. We really enjoy doing this with you. And, uh, and of course, it's always an honor to to to do this with you too, gentlemen. So, uh, thanks one and all for for joining us.

[01:06:27]And, uh, Roger out.