Personal suffering and failure, when approached with vulnerability and faith, can transform into purpose and meaning rather than remaining sources of pain; the journey from seeking power and external validation to finding purpose through helping others requires honest self-reflection, surrender to a higher purpose, and understanding that our greatest weaknesses often become our greatest strengths.
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He Wanted Power—But Found Purpose InsteadAñadido:
This is going to hurt.
It's time for the Suffering Podcast.
The noise never really stops for them.
Even in the quiet, it lingers. Sirens echoing a memory, flashing lights burned into the back of their eyes. The weight of moments that never fully set down.
But somewhere between the chaos and the silence, there is a stillness they can learn to step into. A place where the storm loses its grip and the mind finally exhales.
They carry more than gear on their shoulders.
They carry decisions that can't be undone. Faces that don't fade and the constant demand to stand firm when everything inside of them wants to fracture.
Yet within the burden is something that is completely unbreakable. A steady force that doesn't shout, doesn't panic, [music] but stands like bedrock beneath the crashing waves, reminding them they are not as fragile as the world they [music] walk through.
And beyond the calls, beyond the long nights and unseen battles, there's a reason they keep moving forward. It's found in the [music] lives they touch, the quiet victories no one applauds, the moments where showing up changes everything for someone else.
When they reconnect with that deeper threat, the struggle begins to shift, not disappearing, but transforming into [music] something that builds them instead of breaking them.
I'm Kevin Donaldson, always here with Mike Valace, and welcome to the Suffering Podcast. If you're a fan of overcoming adversity and overcoming suffering, then we're for you because that's what we do here and that's the stories that we highlight. So do me a favor, hit that like button, subscribe to the channel, please comment, ring the bell so you can get notified of all of our new content and now you can join.
And of course, follow us on all social media so you can find out what we're up to when we're up to it. On this episode of the Suffering Podcast, uh so we're just talking a little bit about his home state of Tennessee, one of the few places in this country that I would move to cuz it's so beautiful. But we've been talking for a while and tonight we're going to have Steve Morse to talk about the suffering of peace of I'm sorry peace power and purpose. Okay, because all three of those go hand in hand with one another in order to make you the person that you you are today. But Steve thanks for traveling all up here and come to New Jersey for the first time.
>> Yeah, thank you brother. I appreciate it. Honored to be here man.
>> Listen, we're going to have great time tonight. So thanks for coming.
>> want me to say y'all a lot since I'm from Tennessee?
>> No, you can do that. You know, listen to Davy Crockett and the mountain tops of Tennessee [ __ ] >> There you go. You every sign on the like don't leave garbage or small dogs in your car because a bear is going to come and get you.
>> Um before we get into anything let's do a big shout out to our marquee sponsor.
That's Toyota of Hackensack. We don't trust anybody else police, but we do trust the guys over at Toyota of Hackensack. So if you're looking for a car go to toyotahackensack.com.
Let them find you a car, but also tell them Suffering Podcast sent you. Then go on over to the sufferingpodcast.com. Get yourself some dented Ace Coffee which Steve is drinking right now as we speak.
All proceeds, 100% of the proceeds go directly to Dented Development Project to help first responders repair dent repair dents caused by suffering and it's a fantastic cup of coffee. So please go check that out. So Steve, you watched a couple episodes. Each week we take a question from our audience. Some of them are not to be read on the air, but some of them are. This one is actually a really, really good question.
Comes from KRS 1009.
Who were you trying to become before you found out who you really were?
So I'm going to you're our guest tonight. I'm going to let this one you're going to lead this one off. So if it sucks I won't tell you. Don't worry.
I was trying to become a man that everyone feared.
I was trying to become a man that no one would want to get around or be afraid of by joining the Navy, becoming a SEAL, and just being the all-American badass.
The man I should have been trying to become is who's sitting here in front of you today.
Because that old guy lived in shame, lived in constant anxiety, hated himself, didn't want to be here. Now the guy that's here today finally realized my life has value, it has purpose, it has meaning, and I can help people not hurt people. You try to put on a mask, right? You try to >> Oh, yeah. You try to present to the world exactly what you want them to see, and it's never reality. No. You know, behind closed doors, that's the thing, very few people get to see what you're like behind closed doors.
>> Mhm. And um if you're putting that out there and they see the real you, I I like to think that I'm the same here as I am off camera. Mhm. You know, I got my [ __ ] going on in the in in my life like everybody else, but yeah, that's that living up to that, too. That's That's a big thing to live up to.
Well, and you know, I was in a constant state of anger.
Um you know, so I wanted people away from me, but it was more of unresolved childhood trauma, and it took me getting sober and then getting back into church to understand that. And your church has a way of working that out.
>> Yeah, yeah. So, I was trying to numb everything, and that's how I I thought a real man was pissed off all the time, you know, living for himself, and that's that's what I did, but it ended up costing me a lot, man. Pretty much everything. And so So, a lot like you, I I had this thing about me that I didn't like the person that I was. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to create this entirely new person. I'm going to show you exactly what I want you to see.
And what it ends up doing is ends up being a house of cards, right? So, if you look at a house of cards from one angle, it looks solid, it looks like it's steady and sturdy and all that stuff, but what happens? One strong wind and it blows it all down because it's a facade. You know, it's not real. There's nothing real about it. So, I would show people what I wanted them to see, but I and I judge myself on my accomplishments. I would I would beat the crap out of myself for my failures.
When I found out who I really was, was only at a time and it only came because I got my foundation got raised to the ground. Like, I had to go down to the bedrock, rock bottom as they like to call it, right? But the great thing about rock bottom and and if you do get a chance to go to New York City when you're up here, New York City, in order to build a New York City, they have to go down about 20 or 30 ft to get to the bedrock before they can build these these skyscrapers. Because if they build on the silt and the mud and stuff, it's just going to crumble. But if you go down to the bedrock and if you're raised to that rock bottom, next thing you know, you can build this skyscraper that reaches up to the heavens. So, that's who I wanted to become. I wanted to become somebody who was seen a certain way, but you're never really going to know the real me.
>> Yeah. Once I got broken down, now it's to the point where I don't really care and it's worked out well for me. You know, it's I I connect with people on such different levels. I don't think I really connected with anybody. Do you know what's wild is basically the guy sitting here today is who I was when I was in high school.
Like the guy that that was uh trying to follow Christ, the guy that was trying to do the right thing.
And then I tried to kill him because I didn't like him. I hated him. And then then I come back to him. Now I'm wiser, I'm older, and I understand how the world works now, but I think for me that real-world experience, having to get sober, having to go through a divorce and how to cope and how to having to co-parent, it gives me a different um appreciation for life. Like the small things, man.
>> You got to humble yourself, too. Yeah, that was the thing. I was full of pride when I was younger. Well, as a younger, you know, 5 years ago. So, when I was younger, just like you and and it's something that I really want to start this off with, I was a follower of Christ or what I thought I was.
>> And I realized that nah, I was a I really wasn't. I was doing it kind of wrong. Before we get into any of that, though, I want to thank KRS 10009 for sending in that question. Keep sending in your questions and we will try to get them on the air. So, Steve, coming up from Tennessee, coming I know it's humid down there and you brought the humidity with you.
>> It's hotter here, man.
>> Oh, it's disgusting. It wasn't as hot in New Mexico.
>> [laughter] >> I'm telling you, right on the there was a nice breeze blowing off the mountains and and uh and I'm in the middle of the high desert.
Interactions with sexual assault victims are on the rise.
Yet, training remains [music] scarce.
Every day, someone finds the courage [music] to say the words they've been holding in for years.
And every day, someone is standing on the other side of that moment. The question is, will they know what to do next?
Trauma doesn't come with instructions.
It doesn't look like the [music] way we expect. It doesn't respond to force. It responds to understanding.
Sherry Allsup, [music] survivor turned global trauma expert. Kevin Donaldson, retired law enforcement leader and advocate [music] for real change.
Together, we bridge a gap most people never see.
>> [music] >> We train officers. We educate communities. We change how first responders listen, question, >> [music] >> and lead.
Because the first response can shape a lifetime. This isn't a theory. This is lived experience [music] meeting leadership. And when compassion replaces confusion, healing begins.
Sherry Allsup >> [music] >> and Kevin Donaldson, changing the way we respond so survivors are heard.
I want to start off with that because when you were younger, Mhm. what was following Christ to you?
So, I was raised in a legalistic church, and it was very Which was explain that.
What is that? So, legalistic, like in the South, Baptist, Church of Christ, um those type are really popular. So, I was raised in Church of Christ. My grandfather was a Church of Christ preacher preacher. That's not Mormon, though. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's a whole different Yeah, Church of Christ and Latter Day Church of Christ is really the the original non-denominational church.
So, it's scripture-based. Um there's no there's no music. It's all hymn books.
You have no no women in the pulpit.
You've got a preacher, but you can call the preacher by his first name. There's no hierarchy as like the Catholic church. So, he's like Joe. Hey, Joe. How you doing today? So, anyways, but you're you're kind of held a certain standard, right? You can't drink, can't smoke, can't have sex unless you're married.
You can't can't have tattoos. I you can't see mine. I'm covered in them. So, it was very like very regimented. It's like being in boot camp. But, I understand that, but as a as a kid I was afraid of God and I was more afraid of Satan cuz I always thought in my head I'm going to hell cuz I cannot I cannot hold this standard. And when I got into college, like dude, I didn't drink a beer until I was 21 years old. I didn't. When I got into college, I finally said, "You know what? I'm done with this. I can't do this anymore. I I'm going to start going my own path and um I thought I was doing the right thing because now I was enjoying life, right?
But, that was a like you said earlier, use your analogy, house of cards. It fell apart. It took a while but it fell apart. And and I one thing I ask people on my show that that joined the military say, "Does your Does your faith ever play a role in making that decision?" And a lot of these guys that are haters will be like, "Yeah, I prayed about it." And I'm like, "Man, I never even thought of that, dude." I never prayed for anything. Right. Well, I didn't really either. I I you know, I didn't that just never even I didn't pray about. I don't pray for things. I pray about things.
>> Okay. All right. And I look for answers in those in those prayers. It's like, all right, you know, if I got to make a big decision, it's like, all right, I'm going to pray about it.
>> Yeah. And and see how it works out cuz it's going to tell you the truth.
>> Right. But, I I think I saw religion is more of a means to an end.
All right. So, if I'm religious person I can still do all the bad [ __ ] that I was doing. Right. And but listen, I'm going to go absolve myself. You know, and it's um you know, I one of my favorite quotes that I always used to tell everybody was, "Hey, listen, um judge not lest you be you be judged."
>> Mhm. Well, the the other part of that is, you know, uh cuz that that's when Jesus uh has the prostitute I think it's it's a Mary Magdalene. I'm not sure. But, has the prostitute and they're going to stone her and he says, "Judge not lest you be judged." And they all sort of drop their stones. But, then he turns his attention to the prostitute. Mhm.
And he says, "No, you you got to stop doing that [ __ ] too." Yeah. Just because, you know, it's not Doing bad stuff cuz when you do bad stuff, it's cuz it feels good.
>> Mhm. You know, doing the right thing doesn't always feel good, but it always works out good. Right. We just got to We got to So, why don't you tell our audience a little bit about how you grew up other than this Church of Christ?
>> Yeah, and so let me say this real quick.
Like, I don't want to put that or portray that in a negative light cuz I think the Church of Christ has um it's changed a lot over the years, but I still think it's good because you get a foundation. Like, I have a very I had a very solid foundation and understanding the Bible. Now, as far as a relationship it took me growing and and kind of as an adult to understand that. But, growing up my dad was uh So, he was special operations in the army. We moved around a lot.
So, as a kid, I would develop close friends and then we'd move.
Like, I spent 3 years in Stuttgart, Germany.
And um so, we went from Do you go to the Do you go to the Porsche factory? We saw a lot of it, but we never went to the factory. But, uh yeah, so I went um We lived at Fort Campbell for a long time. Moved to Germany. So, we bounced around and my dad got out of the army uh active in my fifth grade fifth grade year of school and went into the guards. So, that's where life shifted because we moved to a town in Tennessee, uh Smyrna, Tennessee, and that's where I started to get bullied. I got picked on. And it just created this um deep deep rage in me, man. What did you What did you get bullied for?
Well, they thought I was from Germany even though I was an American citizen because they're just idiots. Small town.
Uh I was the new guy. And um I was quiet cuz I was I like to kind of process and analyze my environment.
And um it really took me getting into sports to curb that kind of stuff. Well, so if you got bullied because you were the new guy >> Mhm. um they saw something in you that that they felt less than.
Mhm.
>> You know, they they They're I know bullies okay. I was a bully. That's how I'm going to tell you.
>> yeah. I I Yeah, I despise bullies because I was a bully.
>> Okay. And the reason I was a bully is because my home life was a mess. Mhm.
So, if if any any kid that's getting bullied, if they understand that, you want to watch a perspective shift? It'll shift if as soon as they get it, they'll it'll click.
>> Yeah. And like, oh, and now all of a sudden they pity the guy who's making their life hell. So, how did you um how did you react to being bullied? So, I get in fights. And it was more of just [ __ ] talking. It wasn't a lot of physical altercations, but um I didn't like it. I kind of kept a low profile.
That's where the church thing came back into play, man, because um I didn't want to I didn't want to mess up. Well, what what years are I don't even know how old you are. I'm 46.
You're 46, so you're talking late '80s, early '90s. This would have been um we're in middle school, so yeah, early '90s. Yeah, '90, '91, something like that.
>> And safe spaces weren't put in place.
No, I saw more fights in middle school, dude, than my whole life. But you never saw a school shooting?
No, you didn't see that. You're right.
Good point. So, there's there's a value to fighting. Yeah. No, I agree. I think there is a value to it. Yeah, I have this long-standing theory that kids aren't taught conflict resolution.
>> Yeah. They're they're they're only taught how to avoid. Right.
>> So, now I got I got a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old, when there's something goes down at school, tell the kids, "You can't be around each other." I'm like, "What are you doing?" Mhm. They teach them how to resolve their conflict. We used to resolve it in fights.
>> Yeah. All right, and then it was fine.
Right. But the these kids then they they get separated and they they have all this rage and anger in them and they don't know how to do anything and that's when the bad stuff happens. But that's my theory.
>> No, you're right. And when I was in the police academy, they asked us they asked us straight up, "Who here has never been in a fight?" And dudes actually raised their hand. And I'm sitting here going, "What? Are you kidding me? That's why I'm here." Yeah.
>> like But uh they beat the [ __ ] out of them during DT, but uh yeah, I was like, "Are you kidding you're here and you've never been in a fight before?" Like, what is that? So, with sports and what what sports you talking about?
>> I I really got into baseball, man. That was my sport. And um I wanted to get the hell out of that town. So my goal was to get a scholarship and leave, go to college and try to play like semi-pro and all that. How did it work out for you? Didn't work out very good at all.
>> [laughter] >> It didn't work out at all. I played so I made the team as a freshman in high school. So I lettered my freshman year.
Got looked at by a scout at a camp.
Thought I was going to make district. I was going to keep going. Got cut my sophomore year. And then the last two years of my high school years I I I was on a team. I played but I never got obviously never got any offers or anything. Wait a minute. You lettered your freshman year and got cut your second >> coach. We had three coaches in four years. Okay. Yeah. So I got bronchitis uh the winter of my sophomore year and they the new coach made us all try out again. And it was all conditioning and I just couldn't I couldn't hang. So he yeah he cut me. That was devastating dude. Yeah it it crushed me. Well especially since that's an escape from bullying.
Yeah well once I got in high school, you know, it's kind of one of those things where in the south in the old days baseball was a big deal. It's not anymore. Now we've stolen all y'all's sports. So hockey and soccer are the big two sports now in Tennessee. Not football, not baseball, not basketball.
Really? Yeah.
>> See hockey that one kind of surprises me. Where I live it's a rich kid sport.
Uh And I live in it is. I mean cuz it's so expensive. They travel and so a lot of the transplants that have come into my area, the locals can't afford their homes anymore. Yeah.
>> expensive dude. I know it's I know it's high up here too but >> that's what's happening around here.
Right. That's what that's what the guy told me last night. But uh so when I got into high school made the baseball team, now I wasn't getting messed with. Cuz I was an athlete. So it's kind of funny how school you know you got probably like when you were growing up you got the jocks. You got the we called them dirties like the skater kids.
>> And they were they were they were skaters. They were stoners. They were metalheads, motorheads.
>> a metalhead but I was a baseball player.
So I was never part of a group. Okay. I played football but I was never part of a group. I did that very purposely because I like kids from all different walks of life.
>> Yeah. That makes sense. But then there were other kids that just stuck with their own. I don't know whether that's the right thing. Yeah. So, you get cut freshman year No, it's sophomore year.
Sophomore year. You get cut sophomore year and college doesn't work out. So, what's next? I always had my eye on the military.
And uh so, my dad my dad never sat my brother and I down and said, "Hey, I want you to join the military." But, he did say, "I don't want you to join enlisted.
Go go in as an officer." So, I was only going to go to college if I played baseball. Didn't get the offer. Didn't want to go to college.
And he's like, "Go to college for a year. Try it out. If you totally hate it, then go join the Navy and list it."
But, I really don't think you should go in enlisted. So, it's a long story. But, my aunt was a professor at a college in Nashville called Lipscomb University.
Private school, Church of Christ.
So, she taught me. She goes, "Hey, you should major in exercise science. You like to work out. I'm a she's a professor in kinesiology. You really like it." So, that's what I did. I said, "I'll go to college for a year. I'll try it.
And then if it sucks, I'm going to go in the Navy." So, ended up staying in school, graduated, and then I went into the Navy as an officer. That was a long route cuz I actually worked as a trainer for 3 years before I joined the Navy.
But, I I turned my I'm one of those people, dude. Like if you wrong me, I turn my back on you. I'm done. I cut you loose. So, I cut I totally like cut baseball out of my life. Really? Cuz I wouldn't even watch it on TV. How about now? Now now I'm good with it. Yeah. Now I'm good with it.
>> When I stopped playing The reason I asked that is cuz it's interesting you say that. When I stopped playing college football and I I ripped my groin muscle.
So, I it was it's one of those things where I didn't go out the way that I wanted to go out.
>> No kidding, man. So, I always felt that I had more in me and I can never watch football. Not until recently my Both my boys are into football.
And I'm able to watch a whole game. I'd watch a little bit. I'd watch some highlights. I would do this. I wouldn't totally turn my back on it, but I couldn't watch a full football game. Sit there on the edge of my seat and like, "Yeah, I could Yeah, you could do that, right? You could do that. Yeah. Lo and behold, I do some stuff with the New York Jets and I see the size of these guys. I can't do what they do.
>> [laughter] >> These guys are monsters.
>> That's funny. Um so, you you head into what branch? I went in the Navy. Yeah.
Why why what was your You said your dad was special forces army, was it?
>> Well, he was uh he was a night stalker.
So, he was a he was a helo guy. He was he was a aviator. So, he was special operations. Um he always told stories as kids about who he worked with and what he did. And back in the '80s, man, they didn't exist.
Like you didn't have those movies and [ __ ] >> Nobody wrote a book. Remember the movie with Chuck Norris, Delta Force? That operation in the very beginning of that movie, that's that's how my dad's unit was formed. Okay.
>> was like, "That movie's bullshit." I'm like, "Whatever, Dad. This movie's awesome." So, I I I love my dad, but I always wanted to be different than him.
I didn't want to follow in his footsteps. So, he he did not really talk highly about SEALs. So, that was like, "I want to do that. I want to be that guy." And I read the book Rogue Warrior by Richard Marcinko, and that I just that to me was the ultimate life, dude.
It was like that'd be badass. That's what I want.
>> That put up recruitment for the SEALs like 400%?
>> dude.
>> Cuz I think you know, I've heard that story out of I've had some SEALs in here, and everybody says, "Hey, I we we read Rogue Warrior, and then that's what we did." Great book. Um so, you go into the Navy, was it what you expected? Not at all, man. Not at all.
Uh so, I went in as an officer. That was a little different route than than uh the enlisted guys. Um no, it wasn't. And so, OCS was Officer Candidate School, for those that don't know. It's very academic-based. The Navy is a very academic-based branch. It's not a combat branch. So, most guys that join the Navy are going in to be like supply officers or aviators or whatever.
So, they don't really have this desire to go get in the [ __ ] and fight. Most of them don't. So, you go you get to OCS, and it's I was 20 26. So, all these other cats were out of college. So, I was already an old man at this point.
Except for the prior service guys. So, um and then the Marine we had Marine DI's, and those guys were awesome. Yeah.
Like you were you saw them walk around, you're like, "You better straighten up."
But um good dudes. My drill him the police academy was Force Recon. Oh, nice. Okay. All right. So, I know the Marine mentality, and great drill instructor, but tough.
Like scary. 5' 7", 5' nothing.
And just scary scared the [ __ ] out of me. Even to this day he's a you know 60 year old man he's still scared shitless.
Yeah, they're they're something else man. The battles we fight are hard and taxing on the soul.
Fighting a battle that seems impossible to win.
The stressful calls they give us wounds that cannot be seen.
These moments leave scars.
They leave dents.
Sometimes we just need to sit and talk over coffee.
Finding a moment of peace [music] in the comfort of decompression with those whom you share difficulties.
Sharing moments [music] with those who are the only ones who understand.
Our peace comes in the quiet moments we can share with our brothers [music] and sisters.
It's just a moment to sit, listen, and let it out.
We may be dented, but we are not broken.
The Suffering Podcast Dent the Ace Coffee was created to bring the peace to the protectors.
Dent the Ace Coffee is a tribute to my brother Mike Flaherty's and all the others who couldn't find their peace.
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I enjoyed myself too much in OCS. Um and then when I got to buds that was a real eye opener man. It was not like the Discovery Channel showed me in high school. So you went out to Coronado?
Mhm. Yeah. First day there puckers you up a little bit? So my buddy who was in OCS with he got there a week before I did. And he went ahead and checked in and and for those that watch your show that may not know this, that community does not like officers at all. Even in the Marines cuz they used to call um what do they call them? An enlisted man who becomes an officer was called a mustang.
>> Mustang, yeah. Yeah. My buddy had checked in a week prior and he's like, "Dude, make sure your [clears throat] uniform's squared away." He got thrown in the pool because his gig line was off. And uh For those people, let me explain gig line.
For those people who don't know what a gig line is, the the you're wearing button-down shirts. It has to be perfectly in line with your belt buckle on a certain certain way and then it has to be in line with your zipper and everything like that.
>> had to know you had to know Mike cuz Mike's just a character. He's like 6'4, college basketball player, great guy. He ended up making it through the pipeline.
But uh so he's he's warning me and I I passed my inspection, man. Everything went good. So I had this false sense of confidence, but once um once I started training, I just looked around, dude. And it's like the way I put it, man, it's like going to try for the Yankees, but you're at a JV or like a minor league level.
And that may sound weird, but they really sold me on oh, it's 90% mental, it's 10% physical.
Yeah, it is very mental, but when you're 26 and you're hiding a knee injury and you show up and you've got these 18-year-olds that you just can't kill, dude, it it was you talk about being humbled.
I was I was shocked. Like I didn't I didn't expect that.
>> You went from the big fish in a small pond to a very small fish in a very >> Yeah. Yeah. To a very big pond.
Yeah, so it was intense, man. And um yeah, it was not getting through that was the greatest failure of my entire life. There was a guy in here, his name is John Collins. All right, I'll introduce you to him. John is a fantastic He lives out in San He still lives out in San Diego. He went through BUD/S seven times.
>> Jeez.
>> Now, I know you're only supposed to go three times and stuff like this, but if he explains the story and if you watch the episode, you can understand why. He kept getting through certain phases and then getting bumped and then coming back and stuff like this. But he I look at somebody like him and he had the mindset in order to be a SEAL cuz it's physically is Listen, if you show up for buds, you better be physical.
>> that episode. Oh, with with John?
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's John's John's a cool guy. He's amazing. Yeah, big long beard.
>> Yeah, looks like he looks like Zakk Wylde. Yeah, he does. Um Shout out to Zakk.
But uh he he had like hell or high water, he was becoming a SEAL.
Here's the thing though, man. O's get one shot. Mhm. You're one and done.
That's it. Who Who gets officers?
>> Officers only get one shot.
>> Really? Yep. So you don't get to come back. We had guys in my class We had a guy in my class, he was a chief petty officer, he was second class. His wife got pregnant and this is a no [ __ ] story. They told him, "Hey, you need to just quit and come back."
And they were they weren't saying that just so he'd quit cuz he'd been there before. They said, "You need to quit and then come back because you're not going to be focused."
And the O's get one shot, man. Now they might let you lateral. A lot of guys I knew like one guy lateraled into aviation, one guy lateraled into EOD. So there were options, but as far as coming back to buds, mhm.
That's it. You got one shot. That just increases the pressure. Yeah, and the academy guys are normally the ones that make it, not the OCS guys. Really?
>> Yeah, the Annapolis dudes are used cuz they do mini buds.
So they go like the summer of their senior year and they get cuz man, you It's hard to train for Coronado in Tennessee.
I mean seriously, like the ocean swims and the the soft sand runs, it's tough to do all that. So I trained for a triathlon. I did a couple of did some ocean swims. It was during lockdown so I never got a chance to do open I trained in open water swims like that and when you swim in in the ocean, this ain't no pool, man.
>> man. It is so different. You're like You're getting smacked around and stuff.
>> Yeah. It's it's and I See that being a SEAL like my my oldest wants to do that, right?
>> Oh, really? Okay. And my oldest wants to do that and I said, "Bro, and I don't I don't want to crush his dreams or anything." I'm like, "You need to get a little bit more discipline, man."
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, this is all about discipline. How old is he? 16?
>> 16. Okay, yeah. You you know enough they could probably know enough guys they could probably help him out though.
>> They could help him out, but you know, it's it's it's a fine line, right?
>> Yeah. So, how old is your How old is your kid? I have a 16-year-old daughter and a 7-year-old little boy.
>> All right, so would you want your boys to go in that? I Yeah. You would? Not not the SEAL teams, but I I'd want him to do something with aviation. I want my son to go in the military, don't get me wrong.
But, SEALs I'm like Yeah, I'm not going to discourage you, but I don't know if I'm going to encourage it.
>> Yeah. I don't know, man. So, like my brother, I can't say a lot about what he does. He's in the army special operations.
So, both my nephews, I mean, they're they're six and five. They they already want to do what dad does. I mean, they eat it with a spoon, man. But, um Jacob, my son, I'd love to see him do that just because I got to see a lot of the world as a kid, right? And I don't want I've told him this, too. I don't want him to stay in the same town his whole life. I want him to go out and experience the world and do stuff. Now, whatever he decides to do, I'll support that. But, I don't want him to just you know, stay in one spot because he feels like he has to.
Because you you have the burden of knowledge.
Yeah, that's a good point.
>> You have the You know what that's like.
>> Yeah. Um but, there's something to be said for staying local. I don't know how people can do it. Yeah. I don't. It's not in my nature. I I'm Listen, my roots are planted now. I can't go nowhere. I don't want to go nowhere.
But, when I was young, I wanted to see new things. I wanted I wanted to do new things.
>> Yeah. Cuz when you see even the country, even the continental United States, when you see things around this country, you feel like, "Oh my god." Yeah. It's stupid things. Like, I was looking at the world's biggest pistachio this week.
It's like It's just something to experience.
>> expecting that yesterday when I got out of the airport and I was looking around going, "Hmm, not much to it." But, I'll say this, man.
Newark Airport was way easier than BNA in Nashville. Um >> And I read horror stories about the airport here. Nashville Nashville wasn't bad.
Uh >> It's It's usually pretty good, but it's just it's just you just never know, man, cuz all these people come in to go honky-tonking and all that stuff.
>> Newark's one of the better ones. Okay.
>> If you go down to the Walmart of airports, which is Atlanta. The Walmart of airports. That's Atlanta, cuz nothing works, everything's broken, it's dirty, it's filthy, somebody's going to be fighting.
Dallas-Fort Worth is another bad one I don't really particularly like. But anyway, um you know, the the the special operations there's a there's a myth to it. We've talked about this this kind of bleeds into the social media question, cuz there's a myth to it. Everybody thinks it's one thing.
>> Yeah. Nowadays, what I don't like about the SEAL teams now is everybody seems to get into the SEAL teams to either write a book or do a podcast. Right? It's almost like a conduit in order to get there to do those things. I think it's I think it's because the dynamics have changed so much.
Because if you look at the green side of the house they're not really doing that. There's a couple dudes that do it, but it's it's a different I don't know, it's a and yeah, I saw that in Buds with some of the younger guys.
Just I was shocked at the caliber of people that were there. For what it took for me to get there, and I'm not trying to sound like an arrogant [ __ ] but some of these kids like you talk about discipline and your son I mean dude, these kids would do the dumbest [ __ ] and I'm like, what are you You know how hard it was to get here? What are you doing? Yeah, well, they cuz opportunities you think are going to be everlasting when you're that age, you know.
>> man, but they they beat it into and now I know I trained a couple guys go to Buds and there was a lottery system.
It's gotten way more competitive, man, cuz everybody wants to do it. And there's so much information on it.
>> That's why I do like Force Recon. You never hear about Force Recon writing a book.
No, that's a good point. Yeah, they just they just sort of stay quiet, but so you're in Buds what what was the the hard stop for you? So, I tore my bicep on the O course, and as an officer you are taught to lead from the front. Even though when that training environment you you're intertwined with enlisted guys, right? So, you're still in charge, but you're not in charge. So, you have enlisted instructors telling you what to do. They got to call you sir, but you're still dog [ __ ] in their eyes.
Um you cannot hide as um as an officer. So, you're in the front of the boat crew and you're supposed to be the fastest, strongest swimmer, all that stuff. And um I fell apart. I couldn't do it. Somebody Somebody told me that that the especially Annapolis guys, they're the ones that usually ring the bell fastest. I would I know statistically it's OCS guys um because they don't have the physical prep before they get there. Usually um from my experience, what I've been told, it's the all-American athletes. They get there and all of a sudden they're not they're not hot [ __ ] anymore because the kid that looks like he can't do 10 push-ups, you can't kill him.
I look at like Mr. Ball and I'm like, "How the hell did you ever become a SEAL?" You know? But hey, he did. I don't know what his his service was like, but he Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's a it's an interesting environment, man.
So, I got hurt on the O-course and dreams were shattered and I had to come back home where all these people doubted me that I would ever even leave town.
Now I'm coming back with kind of my hat in my hand for lack of better words. I didn't know what to do with my life. And so I thought, "Oh, I'll go become a cop."
Yeah. And that's what I did.
And that's an even more interesting story, my friend.
>> But you didn't Did you have to go back to the fleet? No, see I paid for my own school and at the time they had something called an IRAD package and it was involuntary release from active duty. So, I was able to get that and get the hell out of there cuz I did not join the Navy to be on a boat.
So, were you technically Was it Is it an honorable discharge? Is it okay to Yeah.
You're You're I didn't know I didn't know the Navy anything. Yeah, I'm a veteran. Yeah, I've got disability, all that stuff, so yeah.
>> Okay. So, I got I got 20% rating for my knee and my arm. That's what I got from Buds. All right.
>> For getting hurt. And it's like a it's almost like a um a badge of uh sh- It was a badge of shame for me cuz I and I've gotten better with this, but like I used to not like to tell people, "Oh yeah, I'm a veteran." cuz I Dude, I was in the Navy for 10 minutes. My dad did 30 years in the Army. He's a legend. My brother's an even bigger legend. So, for years I lived in between these two dudes that I just couldn't hang with.
And now I finally realized and back to your original question from your viewer, I know who I'm supposed to be now. I thought I was supposed to be my brother.
Mhm. I mean, the kid's a [ __ ] badass, dude. And I I always was competing We were competitive, he's younger than me.
But he is like living the life I thought I wanted. You're good When you start comparing yourself to people, that takes away all the joy of the >> 100% man. Yeah. I don't do that anymore.
Yeah. So, you You get this another hairbrained idea, right? Yeah. Being a SEAL, I got to tell you it's a hairbrained idea. It's kind of like I can see that, yeah. It's kind of like, you know, I want to I want to play for the New York Yankees. I would never play for the New York Yankees cuz they suck, right Andrew? I just threw a team out, dude. Yeah, I know. Why do they call it the World Series if it's always held at Yankee Stadium?
>> [laughter] >> But then you get another hairbrained idea, I might as well just become a cop.
Now, the the job market in Tennessee of becoming a cop, what what is that like? Cuz in Jersey, being a cop is ultra-competitive cuz the salaries are so high.
>> It was uh so, in 2008 is when I applied.
I applied for a couple different departments. My uh first wife at the time, my daughter's mom, her best friend was dating a cop and he was in the Marine Corps and he was like, "Dude, you should come work for us. Um we got SWAT team, we do this, we do that." And I didn't even know they had a department cuz I just never saw anything on it. And I said, "All right, I'll check it out."
I went and did a ride-along with him and I knew that first night. I knew that first night, I was like, "This job ain't for me." Like, I knew that. And so, um I'd already I already started the hiring process and I didn't want to back out cuz I needed a job. I needed you know, I needed benefits. I was married. And my my uh daughter's mom was a hair stylist. So, you know, she worked for herself. So, yeah, I I um it took me 6 months from when I went I did the um civil service exam. We didn't call it that, they called it something else. And I went and did a little PT test and that was an absolute joke. I did that and uh so, it took 6 months from that day until I got an offer.
And was the offer worthwhile? It It didn't pay very well, but I was doing it more because So, I missed the brotherhood of the military. I met some really solid dudes um in OCS, guys I still talk to today, guys that I went to buds with. I missed it. I I felt like that's that was what I needed in my life. And so, when I got law enforcement, I struggled to fit in, man.
Like I I really did. Um it was an an odd experience. The biggest myth on planet Earth is that thin blue line.
>> Yes, sir. All right, that thin blue line that comes down that tattoo. That is the biggest myth. I love my law enforcement brothers and sisters. I love them and I will go to bat for them any any day of the week, but I can do that being removed from the department. But I watched internally how people try to climb over you. They try to keep you down so cuz they don't want you to get too high. And I watched all that stuff and it's the God, it you had this illusion of what police is. Well, and I I'll tell you this before we get into it. I um am living proof that there is no thin blue line.
So, how How did your career start out?
Like you just You're on patrol? You're on patrol? Yeah, so uh the department I was at, everybody goes to patrol. So, I worked for a city police department and I'm not going to name the department on here, but um so, we had to do an in-service or an in- interdepartment academy, which was 16 weeks, which dude, was so long.
And then we had to go to the state academy. And their idea was prepare us to go to the state academy. So, the the in-house academy, they gave us like 3 weeks on the street in FTO phase after we graduated. Then we had to go to uh the Tennessee Law Enforcement Academy, which is where everybody in the state goes except for state troopers. When we came back, we had to do another um we had to work four shifts in FTO. So, basically it was like four I think it was I think it was a month on each shift. So, you had to do day, uh second, mids, and traffic, which I didn't ever like writing tickets, man.
So, um yeah, there was a couple guys I gelled with, but like I was shocked at the level of fitness by the majority of the people that work there. So, here's a good example. Kevin, here's a good example. When I checked in at buds, I scan around, and even though these instructors are not in uniform, I'm just like that I want to be like that guy. That guy's That guy's a [ __ ] badass.
The day I checked in at my department, I looked around the room and I was like, um do these people work out? Like, what's going on here? I fought for years to get to get fitness standards in New Jersey. There's no fitness standards.
State police have it, but municipal cops do not have fitness standards. And some of these guys look like they slept in their uniform and it was just they're, you know, white powdered donut stuff on their shirts. And I'm like, what are you guys doing? What's What's the matter?
So, I fought for years. And I even tried to put it in our contract where they would get if they passed the PT test, you would get an extra day off or you'd get a little you get a little bump or some some sort of incentive to keep people in shape.
>> Yeah. And and I even went further down the line and said, it's going to reduce health care costs. It's going to, you know, there's all these benefits to it.
Do you know I got more more blowback from that from the rank and file?
>> I believe it. The the the bosses were actually like, hey, kind of sounds good.
I don't think you're going to get a pass, but sounds kind of good. The rank and file were like, nope. I was almost like fit shamed.
And I'm like, what? I mean, you're cops.
You're supposed to look the part, right?
And and the granted, the city I was in is a very like wealthy area. It's not a high crime. There's pockets of it. Um and I will say this before I get backlash on this episode, there are a couple major departments near where I live now cuz I live in the same town I worked for.
They require They use the Cooper protocol. So, they're doing a mile and a half run, then they got to do a sprint, they're doing push-ups. So, we didn't do any of that, man. We just had some little homemade obstacle course that you and I could go bang out right now with after sitting down and drinking coffee. Like, we don't even need to stretch, you know? So, and the state academy was even even bigger surprise for me. I was expecting to walk in like have Marine DI screaming at us and Oh. I want everybody to understand you're not putting the the the profession down. No, I'm not at all. I respect it.
>> you're you're not putting it down. What you're putting down is the culture. The culture of you know, this is a job you take where stuff could happen. Yeah.
Right? And and we try to prepare ourselves in our life. We try to prepare ourselves for every all all these different scenarios that happen. And police we think we're prepared, but you're not prepared physically. How how If if you got to roll around on the ground or I'm rolling around on the ground and you got to come help me.
>> Right. Right. What the hell? Well, it's funny you say that cuz when I had Mike Morgan on my show, we were talking and I told him the first day on the job I pulled my gun.
And he said he was like, "Wow, really?
I'm I'm like, "Yeah, that's why I became a cop." I mean, the kid had a 1911. I drew my weapon on him. Yeah. That's what we're supposed to do. That's what they train us for. He was like, "Man, that's awesome. Like most guys wouldn't do that." I'm like, New new guy but you also >> got to remember you got you got some military training.
>> Yeah, but people think that, man. Like you're not I mean, you got to think when you go into in those in those schools, a lot of it's physical in the beginning. I didn't make it to the part where you're actually doing tactics and and all that.
I mean, I shot in OCS, but I never touched a weapon in buds. I didn't get that far. Yeah. So, I touched a boat paddle, but not not >> [laughter] >> not a not a not a long gun. But it's just that I don't know, man. It's just that instinct like that's what they train us to do. I'm going to do it, you know? So, if you're if you're a young in shape aggressive cop and you got some anger issues at this point, correct? Oh, yeah, big time.
>> All right, so And I hate myself.
>> [laughter] >> They'll say that one in there.
Now, you go out on the street. You hit the street. You new cops, they want to work. Yeah.
>> Like we want to work.
>> Yeah. You know, I was very fortunate to have a boss that's that used to ask me when I was on midnights. He's like, "Hey, how you feel? Did you get some sleep? You want to work?"
>> Really?
>> "We'll work. If you don't want to work, you want to go bed you want to go bed down? We'll do that, too."
>> Wow.
>> do that every night, but we'll do that, too." Yeah. we was he was conscious and this was a 20-year guy at the at that time and he's still one of my good friends. He was conscious enough to know that I'm a new officer and I want to go out there and work.
>> Mhm. And I always appreciated that.
>> Yeah. But, I watched some of these other old-timers that were like 2:00 hits, I better not hear you on the radio.
>> Yeah. You know?
>> Yeah. And that that sucks for a new officer, especially somebody who's hungry.
>> We were um voluntold to work to create revenue, Mhm. to to be proactive and I didn't mind it because there was a unit on the shift, there was patrol guys, but they were plainclothes, they drove an unmarked, and all they did was dope. And as soon as I saw that, I was like, I want every part of that. That's what I want to do. I don't want to write tickets. I don't want to work up a wreck or answer a barking dog call. I'll go to the bar fights, those were fun. I mean, I got some funny stories about that, but but I wanted to do the plainclothes stuff and just go have fun, go hunt. And so, I was very motivated and just to bring this point up, I was full of anger. I was looking for a fight, but when I went on a call or I I pulled someone over, I can be cool.
I mean, I I didn't write a lot of tickets. Now, I would try to get in your car. If you let me in your car, then we're on, but I would I was not I didn't turn that on until I needed to. So, I could control it. It was more off the job is where I couldn't control the anger. So, that anger always especially the suppression of the anger always results in unhealthy behaviors.
>> Yeah. So, what unhealthy behaviors are you using to try to mitigate your anger?
So, back then it was um alcohol, big time. And I was a I was a fitness guy, I was an ultramarathoner, so I would that would help, like going for a long run cuz you're exhausted. You don't you don't have the energy to be pissed off.
But, um so, I would drink, I would push the envelope, like I would take unnecessary risk. Like I don't want to bring this up for viewers to get perspective. Let me back up real quick. I'm not bashing the profession, I'm just kind of talking about my experiences and some of the people that I dealt with. So, I have a lot of respect for the job itself, and a lot of police officers come on my show, and so I'm I'm here to help them when I do my episodes, but um they told us when I was in the in-house academy to carry a picture of our wife in our wallet, right? And so, when you do scenarios, I'm sure you went through all this, if you're if you're killed on a scenario, and for the viewers that don't know, let's say I get called in here, right? And you're you need to leave the bar, cuz you're heavily intoxicated. So, I'm the officer, I come in, and I'm going to arrest you, and then you you fight me, pull a knife, and you kill me. I'm done, right?
You'd have to pull out your picture of your wife. That's that's that's who you're leaving. And I'll I would tell them, "Why? I don't I don't need to carry that. I don't give a [ __ ] if I die. I'm here to kick ass, dude." But, I was an idiot. So, I had a death wish.
I really I really did. I I would go into places and take risk without thinking first. So, did you ever think about This is kind of a weird question, and there's just ride with me on this one.
>> Yeah.
Were you suicidal? Yes. Not not on the job, but I was before I ever got to the job. That's something that um and you kind of open up a whole new um I had buried trauma from childhood that I never addressed. I never dealt with, and that um I had a a few attempts um not not like The biggest attempt I ever had was after law enforcement as far as I almost went all the way through with it, but I always had these ideations, or however you say it, suicidal ideations. I'm talking about when you're at when you before and as you were a brand new cop.
>> Mhm.
Was there was there thoughts Let me put it to you this way. Did you ever think that you know what, if I don't wake up, or I don't survive this call, yeah, it's no big deal.
Only um only when there was a situation where I knew I might get hurt. I didn't really Now, there was one call in particular that I and we've talked we've This has been said a lot podcast.
I had a lot of PTSD from it. I never realized it until years after being gone. Um and I'll just tell the viewers real quick. I went to a fire call.
Right? Cuz you know, cops are always first on scene. You got to make sure it's safe. Blue Canaries. Yeah. That's what we are. So, I get I get to this house and um there's a woman and I'll make this quick. I won't go into the whole story, but there's a woman trapped inside and her she's probably She's an older lady in her 70s. Her adult son and his son were trying to pull her from a window, right? They were trying to pull her out of this this side door uh side window. So, I go over to help them. When I grabbed her arm, all the skin came off of her arm.
And I was like, [ __ ] So, the fire department is nowhere to be seen. It's just me. I'm the first guy on the scene and we're not in a good neighborhood.
So, they're already mad, right?
So, I go to the front of the house and I'm like, [ __ ] I'm going in. I got to get this woman. And I walk into the living room and then the whole thing's engulfed. And you know, cops in Tennessee are not cross-trained at all.
I had no fire training whatsoever. I don't know I mean, I didn't have my face covered.
I walk in the house and something out of nowhere was like, if you keep going you're going to die.
And so, I kind of stopped and I had a daughter at this point. She's a baby.
So, I kind of stepped back out and I was like, all right, I got to get this woman out. So, go around the other side.
Some of my buddies finally show up. The fire department shows up. They took their time.
She died. We lost her.
And that was one of those moments on the job. Once I had my daughter, I changed my my thinking a little bit. So, that was one of those moments where I listened to my gut cuz I I was the guy didn't listen to my gut very often.
So, I got out of there and um it I probably would have died of smoke inhalation or I would have got trapped.
So, that in that that scenario I did listen to myself, but to kind of back up to your question, no man, I never um I I was looking for a rush. I was bored.
There are people out there.
And this is what I'm hearing from you.
While you don't actively try to do traditional suicide where you're trying to take your life. Mhm. You put yourselves in you put yourself in dangerous situations that if the outcome is bad, you're like, well, it's kind of what I signed up for. So, you seek out those things. You seek out that rush.
You seek out those moments where there is a fine line between life and death.
And what I've come to know that as is passive suicide. Mhm. So, you you passively try to kill yourself through many different times. Um that was me.
And and somebody brought this to my attention. I was the kid riding my motorcycle down the Garden State Parkway, which is a major artery in New Jersey, doing a wheelie on a Harley.
Just Okay, you know, if I go down, who cares? Yeah. Who cares? Jumping out of airplanes just cuz I wanted to jump out of an All right, if my chute doesn't open, no big deal. Right. So, it's passive suicide. Mhm. So, if you think back and I'm not putting this on you, but this is what I'm hearing from you. I'm hearing that you you had these moments where you just put yourself in the very dangerous situations, not really caring about the consequences. When I joined the Navy, I thought if I died a hero, I'd go to heaven.
Ain't how it works. That's how I thought. So, then when I got into law enforcement, I thought, okay, because I'm such a piece of [ __ ] if I go out in the line of duty, I'll be a hero.
As warped as that sounds, that's how I thought.
>> No, hey, listen, you always want to go out in a blaze of glory, right? Yeah.
That's that's how you get remembered.
>> get radical. So, you move on in your police career >> Mhm. but some bad things start happening. Very bad. Yeah. So, I want you to talk about that. My department every year had a Halloween party thrown by the department.
An FTO told me in my early part of my career, very short career, don't ever drink in the town you work in and be careful who you hang out with.
And I thought, well, man, I was living in this town before I worked here. I'll go drink at a bar if I want to. I don't give a [ __ ] So, they had a work Halloween party. I was off duty.
And um I'm I'm to navigate this very very carefully.
I um, got heavily intoxicated and I was married to my first wife at the time.
We had a verbal disagreement. She threatened to take my daughter away and then she was going to leave me and um, I tried to stop her from leaving.
So, I punched a hole in a wall.
At that same time I lit this wall up, fellow officer I worked with who I never really cared for, didn't really know that well, walked in on it.
He told the um, our sergeant when I'm working who was piss drunk in the at the party, it's all cops and their their spouses, that I grabbed and shook my wife. So, instead of handling it the way it should have been handled, they called the on-shift lieutenant. They didn't call a neighboring agency, which is how by the TCA whatever back in the day, you're supposed to do it that way.
So, um, we were split up. They ain't They They started investigating me and her and there were witnesses and one of my really good friends was in Nashville.
This is in a town south of Nashville.
Cop, piss drunk, screaming down 65 to get to me to get me the hell out of there. He pulls up, they threaten to arrest him for DUI.
Um, they took me to jail for DV and um, my own department. So, um, my the same night my car, we we had take home cars.
They took my car, took my vest, took my gun, it took it all.
And I was put on suspension, had to go through internal affairs, the whole thing, had to get a lawyer.
Um, I bonded out the next morning, same guy that came to save me that night bonded me out of jail, had Waffle House for my first meal.
So, I'll never forget that. But, uh, yeah, dude, it was bad. Um, so I I was in the court system for, I think it was on about a year. I had to do therapy, anger management therapy. Um my wife at the time never never left my side, was cool, never never was in fear, none of that stuff.
Tennessee has a um primary aggressor law when it comes to DV. I don't know if you guys do that up here. No. So, if you and I are, you know, partners and we get in a fight, one of us is going to jail. You have to determine the primary aggressor. That's a that's a weird law and I almost went to law school after that because I wanted to wanted to study that more, but um so I didn't hit her, I hit the wall.
Punched a hole And that's what I told him, if I was going to hit her, I would have hit her. That's why I hit the damn wall cuz I wouldn't do that.
So, I go through the whole department circus with going through IA and all that kind of stuff, and my lawyer advised me, she said, um do not take the polygraph, even though it is not admissible in court, but they're going to share that information with the DA. They had to bring an outside prosecutor, and she said, "Even if you're not lying and and they they think you are, it's going to skew this whole case." So, I um ended up getting all charges expunged.
Um but I was told to resign, so I wasn't fired because if I wanted to still be a cop somewhere, that'd be the best way to do it would be go out on my own power.
Because of the city hearing, you couldn't have a lawyer present. And she my lawyer told me she said, "They will crucify you in that city hearing. It's like there's no way you're keeping your job here."
And at the time, my department had the largest number of interdepartmental lawsuits in the state of Tennessee.
Go figure. So, there's the thin blue line. They all turned their back on me.
I was a cancer. No one wanted to talk to me.
Um guys I went to the academy with that were like brothers wouldn't talk to me.
I was told and I was in You guys have Walmart here? Of course.
>> So, I'm in Walmart one night grocery shopping and uh another guy I used to work with comes up to me and goes, "Don't ever let us see you at such and such's bar or you're going to jail." I was like, "What are you talking about?" He said, "We're not You you got in trouble for a reason. We know who you are and we don't we're not we're not going to deal with you anymore. I'm like, all right, no worries. So, I I kept a low profile, man, for years in that town. I live in that town now. So, did you you ended up resigning? Yeah, I resigned. Yeah. You resigned? Yep. Did law enforcement was over? Was How many years?
Two. Two years? Yeah, two years, man. Uh so, they were going through a chief uh change when I was there, and the oncoming chief, he was the deputy chief when I was working. He told me he goes, "This is the best move you could make.
You're a good cop. If you ever want to work somewhere else, I'll give you a letter of recommendation." Okay. So, I put in in another department, um south of where I was at, smaller, thought I had the job.
It was actually harder going through their hiring process, and um another agency was had a bunch of guys lateral in over, so I didn't get picked in the first wave, and that's when I started my business I have now. They called me a week later and like, "Hey, we want to offer you a job." And I was like, "Well, I've already started a I've already started a business." And it was a a lower-paying gig, and my second wife and I were together now, and she said, "Hey, I really don't think you should do this. You hated being a cop. I just don't think it's a great idea." Cuz at this point I'm divorced, co-parenting. Anybody who's ever dealt with that, so yeah, man, and my law enforcement career was was pretty quick, but um I talk about purpose and identity a lot on my show, and I really struggled not not having that identity anymore. So, the the I'm I'm seeing a pattern. Yeah?
All right, I'm seeing a pattern in you.
It's in you Well, I'm sure initially when it happened, you not getting in or graduating from Buds, >> Mhm.
you saw as a failure. Yeah, oh yeah, big time. And I'm sure your police career at the time when you resigned, you saw as a failure.
Yeah.
I believe that you do things in life, and they either they you will you will either grab onto them, and that'll be the way you're supposed to go, or it'll they'll drive you to another position where you're supposed to go.
So, they become conduits it's order to get to the place you need to get to. You know, you're put you're given pain and suffering, you're given you're given hardships in order to reveal something about you. Yeah. So, asking that question, being removed, and this is how long ago did you resign?
>> 15 years ago. 15 years ago.
>> Yeah.
I'm going to ask you this question. It's going to be a hard question. I'm going to ask you, too.
Do you think you were meant to be a Navy SEAL?
Not now. Okay.
Do you think you were meant to be a cop?
No.
Okay, so what were you meant to be?
Where I'm at right now. Which is?
Podcast host, helping people. I'm helping people now instead of taking away from the world and giving back to the world.
And the way I'm doing that is I'm trying to um trying to share my experience with people so they don't make the same mistakes I did.
But there's value to mistakes. So, well, let me rephrase that. Not maybe not mistakes, but the self-sabotage part.
Well, self-sabotage is yeah, that's completely I'm very good at self-sabotage. But if you think about it from your perspective, had you not gone in the military, you wouldn't have as much value as a podcaster. Had you not gone into police work, you wouldn't have as much value as a podcaster. So, while you think these things are failures, they're actually one of your biggest victories. Yeah, that's true. You know, and it only takes time. Like the I just spoke about this and I was just talking about this in New Mexico.
When you get through your trauma, when you get through your past, and it takes it's a long trip and it sucks while you're going through it, you realize that your greatest weakness becomes your greatest strength, but it takes time.
Yeah. And you never think it's going to happen. But it's funny how it works out that way. Those two those two career paths were to make up for what happened to me as a kid.
The trauma. That's why I was trying I was trying to um numb even more. Prove to the world that I wasn't the kid that was 5 years old and went through this crazy horrific experience. So, I was trying to to push him away when I should have been trying to figure out why do I why do I drink like this? Why do why do I do these things? Like what is inside of me that is off, but I didn't want to address it. So, I tried to turn that into, you know, pain is power. It'll make me stronger. And >> That which does not kill us makes us stronger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All those things that people like to tell.
Right. There's a saying and I'm I'm going to get it wrong, but it says um heroes What is it How's it go? Heroes are people that were hurt by the world, but they want to help people. And then villains were people that were hurt by the world and they want to hurt other people. It's pretty good.
>> was in a villain role for a long time.
So, what changed? Like so, you're no longer you're no you're no longer military guy. You're no longer in the Navy. You're no longer a cop. You like something had to change for you to get to this spot right here.
>> I hit rock bottom. All right. So, what's what's rock bottom? So, rock bottom at first was me getting arrested by my own department. I was on the news. I mean, it was everywhere. I had people calling me. I hadn't talked to them in years.
Man, are you okay? Like we saw what happened. And uh So, I bounced back from that, man. I'm a I'm a survivor and instead of fixing the problem at the root cause, I just uh slapped a band-aid on it and I started a business and it took off and then I thought I found my purpose as a as a business owner, as a personal trainer.
But um the self-sabotage part of me crept back in because I didn't I'd experienced so much failure.
I didn't know what to do with success. I didn't feel worthy of it.
So, I started drinking more. I drank more outside of law enforcement I ever did in law enforcement or military. So, as a as a small business owner man, I would just I would just unwind on the weekends and um I shared this on my show, but I had an accident in um I get the year's wrong. I've been sober almost 5 years in uh October. So, this would have been I think it was 20 2021. Yeah, 2021.
I had a major accident, was piss drunk.
And my son's mom, who I'm no longer married to, was over my [ __ ] cuz I was just drinking too much. Her father was an alcoholic and so she saw me as her dad.
I crashed through a plastic Adirondack chair one night. And um part of the plastic cut me here, pierced my uh face and then it got me on the forehead, I had to go to the ER, get stitches, and we were in marriage counseling at the time, and the the therapist said, "Steve, you got two options. You're an alcoholic, which I still to this day do not feel like I'm an alcoholic, and I'll explain why.
Um he said, "You can either keep drinking and lose your family, or you can go get help.
Pick your option." And I said, "There I was no way I'm choosing alcohol over my family." And we had just got back into church at this point. So, it's ironic that I get back into church, find start to find Jesus again, and then all of a sudden God's like, "Hang on, dude."
And flips me out of this chair. Um so, that was my come-to-Jesus moment. So, I knew like I had this aha moment. Okay, now I'm going to start trying to be a good man. Try to be a good dad. I always thought I was a pretty good dad. I just was selfish in the way that I would drink, and I I didn't do it with the kids, but it would be like when they went to bed. Cuz I I I just I did I was not cut out for the suburban lifestyle. I was bored. The funny thing about finding finding your faith.
>> Yeah. Okay? You start walking this path, and the path feels really good. And then you slip up. Yeah. Right? And you're like, "Oh, man." Yeah. You know? And then you got to get back So, the the true people who find their faith now I'm at the point now where if I fall off the horse with my faith, I have to get back on the horse. Like, that's that's what it is. I'm I'm I'm a human being. I'm going to make I don't want to make mistakes. I try not to make mistakes, but I understand that they're going to be there. So, what do I got to do? When something like that happens, I got to get back up, and I got to dive back into that faith. Yeah. So, I started to get sober, and I tried AA, went to meetings, uh it just wasn't for me. So, a really good friend of mine named Eric, we were cops together. Um He was a deacon at the church we were going to, and I pulled him aside. And this is a Church of Christ. People don't openly talk about alcohol abuse or any of that stuff.
And I said, "Hey, do you guys have like a men's group or something?" Cuz um I I need some help. Like I I'm trying to get sober." And he goes, "No, but we'll start one." So, I started going every Wednesday night. We we had like group of guys sit around, and we were reading like a uh Positive Dog was the name of the book.
It's not even like a Bible book or whatever. So, start doing that and then I took it upon myself to start a morning routine.
Uh start listening to podcast. I always thought podcast were stupid, man. No offense, but like I was like, I'm going to listen to music. I'm not listening to somebody talk. It's like talk radio.
And so uh I started listening to podcast, started reading books, um and my whole perspective shifted. Then I realized, okay, I actually want to be a good person now.
I didn't want to be a good person before. I didn't care. I was obsessed with the dark side, dude. I never worshipped it, but I was obsessed with it.
And I It was edgy. It was cool. And then I saw like the church guys were like, "Mm.
Dorks. I don't want to do that." So, then I was I'm I was on this path. So, for a solid year, man, I stayed sober, right? Stayed sober. On my 1-year sobriety, October 15th, week after I find out my son's mom wants a divorce. Mm.
>> And dude, you talk about suicidal all all that stuff, man. Like I I was like floored. I did not see that coming.
>> But that's That's how you know you're on the right path. Look what's Look what's coming. Seriously.
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm I'm grateful for it. I really am. I really am.
>> you're about to do something meaningful and great, >> Yeah. watch the obstacles get put up in front of you. All the time cuz something Something sees what you're going to do and you're going to do something really good and they don't want it to happen because all of a sudden the evil's going to be put out to the side.
>> Yeah. Well, >> So, they just put up all these all these blockades.
>> It's funny you say that because up until that point, even though I was going to church and reading, I still hadn't surrendered to Christ. Fully surrendered. I was praying. I was doing all the I was doing all the legalistic things, right? And I was staying sober.
I didn't do it her way. She wanted me to go to therapy or go to a rehab. I was like, "I'm not doing that."
Um so, when she told me that, we had a Jacuzzi tub in our master bathroom. And as soon as she told me that, I'm looking at that tub and the the thought in my head was, this I can't do this cuz at the time my son was was he was three.
Three-year-old son and I had you know a daughter that was in middle school from my first marriage and I'm just like I can't do this man.
She leaves the room cuz we we'd actually been like she'd been sleeping in a different room but even before she told me and that was the moment where I just told God I was like I can't do this.
Like I need help.
One of the lowest levels of of an example of surrender.
Before when I used to fly, I am scared to death of flying. Really? I am frightened by it. I used to shake.
I would do it but I would shake.
And until once you got up in the air I was fine but take off and landing Yeah.
>> a mess. I couldn't be spoken to.
Now full being fully surrendered, I'm like all right. This is it. Please accept my my apologies for anything I did wrong and please forgive me.
And and then it puts me at this weird peace.
>> Yeah. And once you do it if for those people who have done it you understand it. You're like oh, this this kind of feels really good.
>> When you can and you get to that point of surrender it's not easy but you start to embrace trials. You start to learn how to forgive people, right? And um that was really difficult for me. It it really was cuz I stayed in the house until we were divorced in 90 days. So in the state of Tennessee you can do it in 30 with no kids. If you have kids you can do it in 90 and she wanted 90. We did it right on the nose, 90. And here's the weird part man.
I graduated from OCS on March 31st 2020 or 2006, right? March 31st.
My divorce was finalized on March 31st, 2023. The same day that divorce the ink was dry the first time I'd ever done a podcast.
It was remote dropped on March 31st. It's a very important day. Yeah. Yeah, so like my story went out the day that I was no longer a husband anymore.
And I moved into I signed the lease on my rental that same day. It was wild, dude. So like I God is I really think God has put me where I'm at today. That's how we met. I wouldn't be here and I said this I had a guest on and I think it was Zach. Zach Ferguson was on the show and I was talking I was like I wouldn't be here, dude, if it wasn't for God. There's no way. And people sometimes people kind of shy away when I talk about Christ.
But and you and I talked about this on the phone, but like I'm dead serious, dude. I wouldn't be here. There's no way. But think about all the things that God did for you, not to you. Right.
Right. Right. Right.
>> Right. Before they used to think, "Why are you doing this to me, God?"
>> Yeah. You know, the the getting out of Buds, losing your police job, divorce, you know, whatever it may be, childhood trauma.
>> Yeah. Like, "God, why are you doing this thing?" But he actually did it for you.
>> Yeah. I made peace with the childhood trauma one's been the hardest, but the I made peace with everything else. I really have. Like I didn't think God It took me 15 years to get over not being a SEAL.
That's a long time, man. But I finally made peace with it. And now even and I'll share this when I first started this podcast Give them You didn't You never You got to tell them You got to tell the name of the podcast.
>> Peace, power, and purpose podcast. Well, I wrote it on the cup, you just can't see it. Um I got it on my shirt a little bit here. Well, that's why the the episode's called peace, power, and purpose, so. That's right. So when I first started I didn't think I could sit across well, remotely from a SEAL.
I didn't know how that would go. And um I I prayed about it and I thought about it and Taylor Canfield was the first SEAL I had on my show. Super cool guy. T Cav, you're awesome, man. Much love. He sat He sat right there.
>> Nice. Yeah. Yeah, that's right he did.
And so then I kind of started to realize like, "Hey, man, I want to get to know the man or the woman behind the uniform more than just the the cool guy stories, which is on every other podcast. I live in the town with one of the biggest shows in the world and that's all he does.
And I I I want to learn more about the individual. I want to get to know them and where their purpose is. So, that was kind of weird for me, man, because um I I was like, how's that going to go?
Cuz I never I I didn't do what they did.
But then I I made peace with it. So, I made peace with it. The childhood, like I said earlier, has been the hardest cuz that's I don't know, man. It's um You'll take It takes time.
>> Yeah, and I've been to therapy I've been through therapy for it and I've I've talked to a specialist and and all that.
And I understand it now and I I like your point about God. That makes a lot of sense and it's helped me have more empathy and compassion for people instead of hatred and rage and like, you know, all that.
>> Speaking from personal experience, your childhood trauma, when you do get over it in its own time, there's no way to force it.
When you do give up that forgiveness for whatever happened, it is a huge weight off your shoulders.
But, you know, you [clears throat] have to do it in your own time.
>> Yeah. I can tell you the exact spot where I gave that up.
>> Wow. I was sitting on a a road called Cathcart Drive. And I'm sitting in my car and playing or looking at TikTok or looking at Instagram, whatever I'm doing, and it was just mhm this moment.
>> Yeah. And once that happened, my world changed. Wow.
>> My world changed. And first time I told somebody cuz you don't want to tell nobody, right? You you get embarrassed by it. So, first time I told somebody, I'm thinking they're going to judge me, they're going to look at me differently.
It's not that. It's all It's It's love.
It's connection because I've said this so many times.
You think you can impress people with all your successes. So, if you were a SEAL, you could impress people with that. If you were a cop doing all this badass [ __ ] you could impress people with that.
>> Yeah. You don't You don't connect to people with success. You You connect to them through vulnerability.
>> Right. Right? So, those beats, how many Navy SEALs go out and talk on podcasts say, yeah, I rang the bell. I could have to quit. I couldn't do it.
>> Yeah.
>> Nobody talks about that.
>> Mhm. Why?
Well, it's embarrassing.
>> Why? Because I couldn't be a Navy SEAL.
so all of a sudden we got something in common. Well, the childhood thing too, the thing I found is it's unfortunately it's very common. It's happened to especially guys like us that went into law enforcement. We want to save the world, right? Because we were we were hurt as kids. I don't know your story, but like mine mine happened at five and um that's where I learned I developed shame at five years old. So, the the profile of a cop, this is well documented, lives in chaos, um born in chaos, lives in chaos, can't live without chaos, creates chaos when chaos doesn't exist. They were abused from a young age both physically, sexually, emotionally, or combination of one or two.
They usually go up to play some sort of contact sport.
Sound familiar, right? I was told this by somebody who who is well versed in all this, a doctor.
And then so when they when they become cops, they're great cops.
They're really shitty husbands or or or spouses. But it makes them great cop cuz think about all the stuff that you learned as a child. And I don't know what happened to you. So, this is this is all theory. Yeah.
Um you learn to take the temperature of a room really real quick, right?
>> Mhm. You learn when to speak up and when to be quiet.
You learned uh how to read people.
Yeah. You learned how to read people very early. You weren't trying to, but that's it's a survival mode. You learned how to survive. You learned not to trust anybody.
>> Yep. Think about all these actually all these things that I just mentioned. That makes you a fantastic cop.
>> kidding. It does. Yeah. It does. But >> And it's hard when you leave that job and you still act that way.
To relate to people and um Well, that's because when the when the trauma ends, you know, everybody says what what I what I like to say, my partner Sherry Allsup says that when the trauma ends, that's just when it's beginning.
>> Mhm.
You know, and then you got to carry with it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, that that takes some time and you know, listen, one day you'll you'll get there and it's it's very good.
>> Yeah. So, we're coming to the end of the And at the thing. Where can our audience find you? So, I'm easy to find. Peace, Power, and Purpose podcast, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, and Apple Podcast. Right.
Or just punch it in, easy to find. Um Yeah, man. It's all remote. But, it's uh I started the show in July, and I do two episodes a week. So, every Wednesday and every Thursday, minus this week. But, uh had Tony Lavery on yesterday. Awesome show. Shared her perspective. And so, my show and and I think I've gotten almost like labeled as based. I don't know if you've heard that term before, because I talk about Christ and then a lot of people think, "Well, I can't come on your show if I'm not a Christian." And that's not true, folks.
Like, I'll talk to anybody. And um it's not just vets or law enforcement. I mean, I've and I've had a lot of guests that aren't, but somehow a lot of that crowd's kind of come in my direction, which I can relate to those folks. But, one thing I want to share tonight, I think more awareness needs to be brought about the um perspective for men in divorce.
I really I'm I'm working on trying to get more awareness for that. I was talking with a um men's coach this weekend while I was up here. And uh I'm going to bring her on the show, cuz I think that perspective needs more more awareness, especially in Tennessee.
Yeah. Cuz dad single dads, man, it's it's uh odds are stacked against us.
Well, when you um I can I can definitely steer you in certain directions on that one. Okay. Um so, I end the show the same way every time, because I believe it is my belief and it's why this show is called what it's called, that suffering is the greatest teacher you could ever have.
Suffering is going to teach you things about yourself, and it's going to reveal things about your personality that's both good and both bad.
And you will if you didn't learn a lesson from whatever you went through, what a wasted opportunity.
>> Mhm. So, if you look back, whether it's not you it's you not making the maybe being a Navy SEAL or or not doing a full career in in police world or going through divorces or childhood trauma, you have this suffering. Mhm. And it's had to taught you teach it's had to have taught you something. So, what do you think it's taught you?
Put God in everything you do.
There's a famous line from the cheesy Punisher movie with Thomas Jane. I'm going to say this cuz you have the tattoo and so do I and he goes, "God's going to sit this one out."
That was a decision I made at 25 years old. It was the summer of Steve, like the summer of George from Seinfeld. And I thought, "Okay, now I got my shot. I'm going to go do my thing." and I did not put God in it. And I have learned through my sobriety, through getting back into faith is that he wants a relationship with me, but he can't force it because it's we have free will, right? Yeah, so now I realize I I'm not perfect, folks. I'm not I'm not like textbook Christian, all that kind of stuff.
But that's the one thing that um that I've taken away from this whole thing is if you have to put God in your life. You have to. He's got to be at the He's got to be at the foundation in everything.
You are a textbook Christian. You want to know why? Mhm. Because you realize that you're not perfect.
That's a good point. And it's I'm thinking of Ned Flanders.
>> [laughter] [gasps] >> Like that going to watch Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Steve, thank you so much for coming in here. I appreciate it. Um look for it check out the Peace, Power, and Purpose podcast. Yes, sir. Um I've watched a couple episodes. You're doing well You're doing good stuff.
>> Thank you, man. Appreciate it. And that's going to do it for this episode of the Suffering podcast, the Suffering of Peace, Power, and Purp- Purpose with Steve Marsh. And let's think about all the stuff that we that that we I've learned. You've learned, I've learned.
So, you can't uh you can't hold up uh unrealistic standards. You can't hold up to them.
Uh rushed dreams leave you lost or crushed dreams leave you lost. I can't read tonight. Sometimes we're all passively suicidal even though we don't realize it.
Be a survivor cuz I think that's what you have been. But most importantly, and God, this is most important.
Put God in everything you do.
And that's going to do it for this episode. Don't forget to go to popple.com, put in the code TSP20 for a 20% discount on your digital business card. Follow us on all social media.
That's Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Clapper, TikTok, Only Fans. Follow me at real Kevin Donaldson, and of course follow the Suffering Podcast, and we'll see you on the next episode.
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