"This is chaotic" | Tim Stanley and opposed Labour MPs debate the challenge to Keir Starmer

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]And I can tell you now that the p the public will say to you, "We hate your leader. We want rid of them." So you get rid of your leader and the public says, "We're a bunch of backstabbing lunatics and we hate you even more." Once you get rid of the leader, it's like first blood. It's like the piranhas smell the blood in the water. And they never forgive you for it. It's a cycle all the way down.

[00:00:20]>> This is chaotic to have this contest, to have this fight.

[00:00:23]>> It doesn't have to be chaotic. you sitting here as Labour MPs are the embodiment of division of the division in the Labour party which is splitting your party and you both >> No, I disagree with that.

[00:00:36]>> You both know that divided parties don't win next.

[00:00:39]>> No, and I disagree with that. I think we're at a particular point. We're at a crossroads.

[00:00:45]>> Tim Stamley, how how are you? I mean, Andy Bernham's also arrived in London today. Another man that we know wants to be leader/p prime minister. How do you see all this? Prime Minister is very unpopular but where Street doesn't yet have the votes and Andy Bernham isn't yet in the House of Commons. Uh we've seen in the Prime Minister in the last 24 hours uh the characteristics of arrogance and stubbornness. I have to say I'm very impressed. I'm rather I'm genuinely impressed. He everything we thought was a weakness, his loyalness has worked to his advantage because what has he said? Sure, you've got 81 plus names that are against me, but what you don't have is 81 plus names behind an alternative, and under the Labour party's rules, that means you can't trigger a ballot against me. So, until Wes comes to me with that number of votes, I ain't going anywhere. Now, I have to pick up on this point because you mentioned Liz Truss. I write for a center-right newspaper. I've seen this from the inside among the Tories. And I can tell you now that the p the public will say to you, "We hate your leader.

[00:01:44]We want rid of them." So you get rid of your leader and the public says we're a bunch of backstabbing lunatics and we hate you even more. Once you get rid of the leader, it's like first blood. It's like the piranhas smell the blood in the water and they never forgive you for it.

[00:01:58]It's a cycle all the way down. Labour will be better off sticking with the devil they know.

[00:02:03]>> Do you accept that Katherryn McKenna?

[00:02:05]>> No, I don't. Um >> it didn't work for the tourists, did it?

[00:02:09]So but you think it would work for >> No. and but they were long into their term and they were far into chaos by the time they descended into that.

[00:02:17]>> Do you think in which case it looks like you've truncated it. So you've only waited two years to descend.

[00:02:24]>> Just let me finish. We we have a a very clear manifesto and a clear mandate to deliver. We are not changing the goalposts on what we are delivering to the country. We are just we've had misstep after misstep after mistake and I think we're forgetting some of the really fundamental challenges that we had just leading up to the local elections which was the Peter Mandelon and the decision to appoint him as US ambassador. It was a very serious mistake that the prime minister has rightly acknowledged. Yes. But the consequences of that continue and go on and will continue for some time because the it hasn't gone away. It's going to continue coming back.

[00:03:08]>> The public is not just angry about personality or Mandlesson. They're angry about policy as well. And one thing that will never change is you're trying to do progressive government in an era of austerity plus mass migration. That's very difficult. And I just don't see that any of the alternatives are bringing something different in terms of policy cuz I think it's actually people's uh financial position or the boats coming across the channel. I think that's what people are really angry about even more so than Mandlesson >> and we have delivered huge amounts on those things. But the problem is the public are not feeling it. They're not seeing it. They're not hearing it. It is not cutting through in terms of our messaging and in terms of the delivery that they see on the ground. And that's what needs to change.

[00:03:51]>> And is that not fair, Andrew Luen, that actually that does need to change because you can see the polling. You saw what happened on Thursday. You can look at the Yugov polls, the Ipsos polls, and all the rest of it. You know that Karma isn't particularly popular.

[00:04:03]>> Look, what I would gently say is people are not going to hear it if they're only going to hear about having a leadership challenge. So all the more reason to to unite together. And just my final thought on on that on the question of all, we we might want to change leader but have the same policy perspectives.

[00:04:17]I've looked at most of the statements that colleagues have put out who said that they wanted the prime minister to go. They're in very different places.

[00:04:23]Some of them are saying we want a swift timet which suggest a preference for one candidate. Others are saying it needs to be an orderly transition which would suggest a preference for another.

[00:04:31]>> Both.

[00:04:31]>> Well, but I think >> swift and orderly but well want to open the borders. Some want to nationalize everything. Some don't. It's not just about person.

[00:04:39]>> But I think that's the point, isn't it?

[00:04:41]because this is chaotic to have this contest to have this fight to be chaotic and so actually we're in a better place tonight as as I said a moment ago the the mood from Downing Street is that we're going to get through this and we can focus on the King speech and a legislative agenda that we have to deliver on. I mean, if I may, you say we're in a better place tonight. Both of you sitting here, and I'm grateful for both of you coming here and being respectful to each other, but both of you sitting here as Labour MPs are the embodiment of division of the division in the Labor Party, >> which is splitting your party. And you both >> No, I disagree with that.

[00:05:16]>> You both know that divided parties don't win.

[00:05:19]>> No. And I disagree with that. I think we're at a particular point. We're at a crossroads. And I think many of us have agonized for some time about not just often the Bananaama song, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.

[00:05:34]That's what gets results. And that song comes to me often. I'm showing my age, but I do think that it matters not just what we do, but how we do it, both amongst ourselves and how we deliver for the voters. And they feel it. They're telling us, "We know this isn't right.

[00:05:50]We know that it's not good enough. We're telling you it's not good enough. And I think if we keep saying let's just carry on and paper over the cracks and just keep going, we will just get the ultimate result which is written on the wall if we don't change things.

[00:06:05]>> Okay. Very briefly, AL because I'm going to go to Nick.

[00:06:07]>> I'm so pleased that we have that we're having this discussion because I think more than anything I've heard in recent weeks or months, this is the best representation of the conversations I have with Labour MPs all the time. And actually, now that we've had this few days of resignations, finally we're getting an on there version of the of the debate and the kind of crisis that the Labor Party is in. I just don't know how these two views are reconcilable or where the Labor Party goes from here because you can hear the sincerity of both positions. people like Kat and there's so many of them and they go right up to the top of the cabinet that really sincerely believe that if Labor doesn't change direction and change leader that you're locked out of power for a generation and you let the extreme right in. And people like you, Andrew, right up to the prime minister believe that if Kier Starmer goes and you plunge into the chaos of a leadership election, then you're locked out of power for a generation. And Labor has been having this debate on a loop since basically last September. And I mean finally something has kind of happened and yet nothing has really happened. K star is still in place but the concerns are even louder. You've got nearly a hundred people expressing their frustrations with him. Home secretary told him to consider his position and and go last night. It's just an absolutely crazy position and he's he survived the day but actually stepping back from it. I have no idea how Labor can govern from here. I really don't and no one's been able to give me a good answer and it does sometimes sound like games and like haha we've beaten Wes or Andy's still not here but actually beyond the sort of the the games >> I don't think we treat I would say Catherine but I don't think we treat it as games on news I really don't >> no no but I don't think Newsight does but just but beyond that there's just like a really serious question of like the government of this country is so profoundly lost and it and it's not finding its way despite this sort of big emotional spasm that it's out over the past few days. I >> have to say sometimes the media covers uh Labor infighting as if it were some venerable church that's in danger of schism. From the center right I see things rather differently. I see a sanctimonious party that enjoyed the Tories tearing each other apart when they're in opposition.

[00:08:19]>> It was a conservative psycho drama >> and said we will be better than them when we come in. And they've come in and discovered that uh actually government's very difficult especially when there's no money especially when you can't control your border when your backbenches are revoling. If only Stum had been this stubborn over say welfare reform, perhaps the country would respect him more. And more than that, it turns out that the good people, Labor people, are just as nasty about each other as the bad people are. I think the problem is politics, not one particular party. This is what Westminster does to people.

[00:08:48]>> How do you see this unfolding over the coming hours and days?

[00:08:51]>> Oh, I think we'll have more of the same maybe for weeks and weeks. I mean people, >> but you're hearing these calls for unity from people like Chris Ward, from from people like Andrew Leuen. Is that not going to cut it with some of the party?

[00:09:04]>> I think what we've seen for months is that Labour will have this conversation, but nothing will really happen. And we know that there'll be another iteration of the Peter Mandlesson files that that will be another really uncomfortable moment for Kier Starmer. He'll have to revisit that decision that he's apologized for again and again. And I think that this sort of steady drip drip just won't go away. I mean, I I don't think the way streeting is finished.

[00:09:29]We'll see what happens with that conversation tomorrow and then on Thursday. There's also Andy Burnham, you know, his allies saying that he's increasingly confident that he will find a route back to Westminster. I'll believe it when I see it, but that's like that's not finished either.

[00:09:44]>> Have you heard have you heard any intel about a credible plan?

[00:09:48]>> No. for Andy Burnham to get for someone to give up their seat in the northwest of England.

[00:09:52]>> No, no one knows who this magical MP is who's going to resign to give Andy Burnham his seat. His allies say that there is one and you know even there was some some suggestions we'd hear who it was today and that has obviously not materialized. Maybe it never will.

[00:10:07]There's definitely anxiety among all these people who've pinned their hopes on Andy Burnham inside the Labour party that it might not come to anything.

[00:10:15]There's definitely a lot of anxiety among west streeting supporters thinking will he go for it? I have my hopes pinned on him. Um you know across the Labour party there this you know and then obviously there's the the anxiety of all the Starmer supporters who feel like this can't really go on. I think that this might go on for months and months. I don't think that any serious person really thinks that Kier Starmer will lead Labor into the next election.

[00:10:38]even his closest allies and I'm not sure many people even his like closest supporters think he'll make it to September but the the the party is really struggling to reach any sort of decision so I think that all we know is that this will just keep rumbling on.

[00:10:51]Okay.