What is Doxology & Theology? (And Who Are These Guys, Anyway)? | Episode 01

[00:00:01][music] Welcome to the Doxology and Theology podcast. My name is Matt Boswell and I'm joined here with Ben Haley from Calvary Church in Inglewood, Colorado. Welcome.

[00:00:14]>> Great to be here. Great to be here. Love Texas.

[00:00:16]>> And David Ames from the Trails Church in Salena, Texas.

[00:00:20]>> So glad to be here. And both of these guys serve uh not only great churches and and shepherd well, but they also shepherd the weekly worship service of the church, which is the heartbeat of doxology and theology. We exist to glorify God by equipping churches in the practice of gospel- centered worship.

[00:00:42]And guys, I'm so thankful to be sitting down and having not just this conversation, but Lord willing, multiple conversations with you guys as we think about corporate worship.

[00:00:51]>> Praise God.

[00:00:52]>> Doxology and theology began way back in 2012.

[00:00:57]>> And the idea didn't originate with me.

[00:01:00]It was a friend who said, "You should do something to gather pastors and those leading the gathering of God's people to think together about it." And so in 2012 we gathered for the very first time in Frisco, Texas. And then we met every other year. We met bianially uh through 2020 and just recently have started doing these one-day conferences. Just recently meeting here in Dallas Fort Worth again, but now plan to meet all over the nation hopefully and and by God's grace all over the world. And in addition to that, creating resources, really trying to take the conversations that that we're having, that pastors just like us are having to help bring them into the conversation as well. So, let me start by just asking this, Ben, how did you end up leading worship? What is the story behind that?

[00:01:55]>> Yeah, good question. Well, I started um Yeah, I think you guys know this about me. I'm I'm primarily a drummer.

[00:02:02]>> Okay. which don't let the joke start flying.

[00:02:05]>> Well, I thought you started leading worship so you were sure you didn't ever make a lot of money. [laughter] >> But but now you're saying I wanted to be poor. I aspired to be poor.

[00:02:13]>> This was >> Yeah. So I started I I will never forget I was in I was going into seventh grade >> and my mom came into uh came into my bedroom and said, "Hey, you're at the new school. You're going to be in band.

[00:02:27]I signed you up for band class. you can play snare drum or trumpet.

[00:02:33]And I was like, I mean, snare drum sounds better to me. [snorts] So, I started playing snare drum in seventh grade. And my seventh grade band teacher gave me my first drum. And I'll actually never forget, she said, "I think the Lord is going to use music in your life."

[00:02:50]>> Wow.

[00:02:51]>> And I didn't think much about it. I I until I started getting into high school, started playing drums in youth group and that was like my first taste of of I think just leadership in music.

[00:03:04]I led worship the very first time when I was a senior in high school. And I don't think you guys know this. I had the audacity to play a an original song I had written the [clears throat] very first time I led worship. Oh my gosh.

[00:03:20]Wow.

[00:03:21]>> Which was a big mistake. Yeah, >> a big mistake, but my my youth pastor was a gracious man.

[00:03:25]>> Do you remember the song?

[00:03:27]>> I do. I don't even remember it. I wish I had it somewhere, but no. Um, and that man, that really started the journey, though. I And then through college, just continue to lead and serve in the local church. Um, I still consider myself really a drummer. I'm a bit of a hack on guitar. And >> do you play drums ever on a Sunday morning?

[00:03:46]>> Not as much as I'd like. Maybe once every six weeks now, cuz we have some good leaders at the church. So, I get to I get to do it more. Now, I'm rusty. Way rusty.

[00:03:56]>> Yeah.

[00:03:57]>> But, uh, >> have you ever Phil Collins and drumed and sang at the same time?

[00:04:01]>> I have been tempted. In fact, on Easter Sunday, I played I scheduled myself to play drums on Easter Sunday. And, uh, I thought, man, we could use some harmonies. I wonder if I could do that from the drum kit and then I chickened out.

[00:04:15]>> So, I just I just played drums. I I just a short aside after Phil Collins did that I don't think anyone ever should.

[00:04:22]>> Well, that's right. Yeah.

[00:04:23]>> An amazing drummer, right? I don't [clears throat] know technically, but what a gorgeous voice.

[00:04:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, >> you should give it a go.

[00:04:30]>> Any but anyone who does it always will be >> You're trying to be Phil comparison.

[00:04:35]Yeah.

[00:04:35]>> Yeah. He's the one guy that did it and that was it.

[00:04:38]>> I felt that way when I would try to play bass and sing at the same time, but not Phil Collins, of course.

[00:04:42]>> See, I didn't know you were a basist.

[00:04:43]>> Sting. Well, we're just talking about you right now. So, all right. So, you're playing drums. How did you end up at Calvary?

[00:04:50]>> Uh, yeah. So, I started at um at our church back in um try to keep this story brief, but uh it was a declining church at the time. And there was a a a guy who's still there who's who I serve with as one of the pastors who said to a couple of college kids. I was one of them and then my roommate was was the other. Guys, our church needs help. And he said to my roommate, "Would you preach?"

[00:05:19]And I I said, "Well, I can I can lead music." I don't know what they were thinking, but the Lord used it in our I mean, if anything, I don't know if it was good for the church. it was good for us just to sort of begin to to um get reps as worship leaders and preachers.

[00:05:36]And so that was that was about that was over 20 years ago. Um and then we got married and my wife and I we had a stint at another church for a period of time.

[00:05:46]And then I got a uh a Facebook message years ago from Mark Hallock who you guys have met um saying, "Hey, I I know that you you you guys used to be at this church. would you ever want to come back and and lead music again? And so we did and I think the very first Sunday back leading music was the first Sunday he ever heard me sing.

[00:06:09]>> Uh so he took a bit of a risk. Um but I've been back now at the church for over 15 years at Calvary in in Denver.

[00:06:16]>> Yeah. It's been it's been sweet to see what the Lord's done.

[00:06:19]>> And has your role changed there? I know it has. So what what has your role looked like over those years? And and tell us about that.

[00:06:26]Yeah, I' I'd be curious to hear because I know I know we have a similar story.

[00:06:31]Um, it was years into worship leading where I the Lord started to put a burden on my heart u to preach. I think what I started to realize was what I loved the most about music leading became less and less about the music >> and more and more about the word. And I thought, gosh, I, you know, I would finish singing three songs and go, the part of that that fired me up the most was the in between the stuff that I would be able to encourage the congregation with or the prayer afterwards.

[00:07:03]>> And the Lord started to stir in me a desire from for preaching. And so my role has shifted now. I preach about 25 or 30% of Sundays and have have gotten the great joy of being more of a sort of the leader of leaders role pouring into other people who are more gifted than me at the music piece. Let them lead um and I can just encourage them and play drums because I they're up there doing it, you know. I I do remember feeling some of that and I I remember even probably 10 12 years ago uh at a conference with John Piper trying to communicate that I said I feel as the worship leader there's some things I can do but but I I I can't say all the things that I want to say >> and so I feel like in preaching I could do more and he said you know you can't do it all in preaching either. It was a helpful corrective to me to think through. It's it's both of those things working together. In fact, I mean, as we'll talk about, >> it's the whole gathering of God's people that we want to be talking about. And when we find a healthy church gathering, it's where all these things find their right alignment.

[00:08:17]>> Yeah.

[00:08:18]>> And right expression, uh, all aimed, of course, at God's glory and for the building up of his people and for the advancement of his gospel. But I did feel that same kind of tension of of wanting to both lead in song and lead in sermon and I still haven't quite figured it out.

[00:08:35]>> Well, I do think there there's a common thread with the three of us an understanding of the importance of the word a and a desire to preach. So, we're all worship leaders who have preached or do preach. I I've noticed since I've become more conscious of the sermon writing process and even conversations that we have as you're talking through what you're preaching or what your sermon is going to look like. I think it makes I think it makes us better service leaders. Have you guys seen that understanding of how the sermon works and and how it should shape the liturgy actually makes you better at picking different elements of the service or have you seen that in your own experience?

[00:09:11]>> I I would say yeah for sure. I mean I would imagine you are the same.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting the the longer now that I've preached on most Sundays, I see the similarities more than I did even at the at the beginning.

[00:09:23]>> Yeah.

[00:09:24]>> Because when you're leading in song, you're after the same thing as the sermon. You want people to behold the glory of Christ, to be changed by the power of the spirit, to be conformed more into the image and likeness of Jesus. It's just a different methodology. It's a different tool in the hand. The preacher has the Bible. uh the music director has you know some instrument usually at least the voice but you you want when I'm preaching I still care very much about the music and when I am leading music here I still care very much about the ministry of the word because as pastors it's it's the whole gathering that we're called to shepherd and so >> David how tell us your story David Ames uh one of the pastors here at the trails David how did you what did like how did you get into leading worship what did that look like for you?

[00:10:13]>> Yeah, that that was not on my radar. So, I grew up my dad was an army chaplain, a pastor, and and early on as a kid, people would ask, you know, are you going to follow in your dad's footsteps and be a pastor? And I would always say absolutely not.

[00:10:27]>> And not because I was against it, but I I he talked about a calling always. He he had known at a young age. I did not feel that growing up. I wanted to I did want to be a musician. Uh, and so I got my first guitar in seventh grade. Do you I've asked you this. Do you remember on the Home Shopping Network there's this guy called Estabbon?

[00:10:46]>> This is an obscure reference.

[00:10:48]>> Okay. So, he he would he was selling these like flamco style classical guitars.

[00:10:54]>> Okay.

[00:10:54]>> And he he acted like he knew he was probably from Cleveland, but he acted like he he was trained in this in this Spanish style guitar. And my parents not knowing the difference between, you know, like a nylon string classical and a steel string, they they ordered me this guitar and I didn't know the difference either. And so my first guitar was this thicknecked classical string guitar and it came with an instructional video on how to play these like flamingco style classical pieces.

[00:11:23]>> Ju just to be clear from an infomercial >> from Yeah. from like Home Shopping Network.

[00:11:27]>> Wow.

[00:11:28]>> Okay. Just a a quick excursion here.

[00:11:30]>> Yeah.

[00:11:30]>> First guitar. Uh, first guitar was actually well I feel like I'm bragging but nicer than that if my dad bought me my dad bought me a nice guitar my senior year.

[00:11:43]>> Okay.

[00:11:43]>> So he he Yeah. He was he was a guitar player >> and had some had some good guitars and so >> I never slumbed it. I hate to say it. I mean so I don't know anything about this Estabbon guy.

[00:11:54]>> Yeah.

[00:11:55]>> But I do know something about flamingco guitar. My first guitar was a Brazilian flamco guitar. No way.

[00:12:01]>> That my dad had my dad grew up a missionary kid living in Brazil and so he had two classical guitars from Brazil.

[00:12:10]>> Okay.

[00:12:11]>> And I I took one of them and I that's how I learned to play on that guitar.

[00:12:15]>> You still have it?

[00:12:17]>> That's a great story. That's a great question. So when I left h when I left the house, I ended up Oh, no. It was the second. So the second guitar I had was also my dad's. The church had given it to him for his 40th birthday, I think.

[00:12:32]>> Wow.

[00:12:32]>> So then when I left home, I took [clears throat] that guitar with me >> and then I gave it back to him as a birthday present 10 years later.

[00:12:40]>> He's been gifted the same guitar twice.

[00:12:43]>> He's [laughter] been gifted two guitars that were his, then they were mine, now they're Let's get back to David. Yeah.

[00:12:49]>> Anyway, I learned on this classical style guitar. I was I was into learning John Mayer songs. And back then, this is when I had to buy a DVD. This was before YouTube. There was a live DVD of John Mayer, and I could tell his guitar was different from mine. I didn't know how, but I thought, "It sounds different. It looks different." I convinced my parents to get me a a real a steel string guitar, a Taylor, a little Taylor 100 series, and man, I just fell in love with it. And I would look forward to coming home from school. This this would have been high school now, so that I could come home and write songs and play guitar and get better and better at it.

[00:13:23]But it was for selfish motives. I mean, I again, I wanted to I wanted to be a musician like John and and write songs and uh it's it's cool fast forwarding to see how the Lord has redeemed that. So, I was in the army for a few years. I was in a Acts 29 church in central Texas and um was invited by their worship leader to come accompany him one Sunday. He found out that I played guitar and he gave me an opportunity to play on stage with him and then found out that I could sing and they had a recovery ministry, a celebrate recovery ministry that met on Monday nights and he said, "Man, you should play on Monday for these people."

[00:13:58]And >> how old how old were you at this point?

[00:14:00]>> This this would have been I was a young adult. So I was a I was a single guy in the army um early 20s.

[00:14:06]>> Early 20s. Okay.

[00:14:07]>> Yeah.

[00:14:07]>> Captain in the US Army.

[00:14:09]>> That's right. I got out as a captain.

[00:14:10]That's right. At any point in time during this podcast, you can refer to me as captain names and it would it would be appropriate.

[00:14:16]>> I'd love to. [laughter] >> You know, sometimes I do.

[00:14:19]>> You do. You do. That's right. You But usually in the Dead Poet Society, remember Oh, Captain My Captain.

[00:14:24]>> Yeah. Right. Famous scene.

[00:14:27]>> So good. Okay. So anyway, so yeah, I I on Monday nights I would play for these people uh who were in I mean some of them were at rock bottom and were hungry for songs that were true about Jesus.

[00:14:42]And I I caught the bug for worship leading. I mean it was just it it was a it was a really sweet season. I learned how to play in front of people. I learned how to accompany a congregation.

[00:14:54]And I didn't know at that time that that was going to turn into into into getting to do this. Um, but it was the best way to learn how to lead worship. I mean, it was really sweet. Fast forward, I I met my wife. We moved to the Dallas area.

[00:15:06]>> And this same worship leader who who gave me an opportunity there in in central Texas said, "Hey, if you're close to Matt Boswell's church, you should go uh you should go attend his church. He's a worship leader in the area, and I think you'll like his music." not knowing, Matt, that you were about to you're about to plant the trails. Um, and so one Sunday, one Saturday night, my wife and I are looking up what time Providence met the next morning, and I saw a letter from you saying, "Hey, prayerfully consider joining this new church that we're planting in the area, and the last line was an invitation. It said, "I need an intern who can help lead music on Sundays in this new church endeavor."

[00:15:45]Man, I just emailed you. Sight unseen.

[00:15:48]We had never met. And similar to you, you said Mark had never heard you before that Sunday. Matt Matt just said, "Hey, bring your guitar >> to church."

[00:15:55]>> Yeah.

[00:15:55]>> And uh after the service, we're going to get together. A number of us will get together. You can play some hymns.

[00:16:00]>> And uh that could have gone terribly, man. Well, what I knew at that point was at that we were about a group of maybe 80 people meeting in a pretty small room and the singing was so loud and we didn't have the person leading the hymn even plugged in or anything. Remember?

[00:16:17]>> That's true. So, and it couldn't have gone worse than it had the last time we had we had met. And so, that's the story for another time, but it couldn't have gone worse. And so, what I told you is I I said, "Sure, the hymn we're going to sing is The Solid Rock."

[00:16:31]>> That's right.

[00:16:32]>> And I All I said was, "Let's do The Solid Rock in the key of D."

[00:16:34]>> That's right. You gave me the key.

[00:16:35]>> And that was it. And there's a story behind each one of those things. And so, >> um, but what I remember is you showed up early. you're helping my kids put bulletins on every chair and uh your heart for the Lord and for his people was really evident from the very beginning.

[00:16:50]>> That's sweet. I think what's what's awesome to hear about that is whether it was Matt later on or this other worship leader or my youth pastor, >> it was it was someone who was like, you know, in in sort of a human sense, I I'll take a chance on this kid. But in in the in the spiritual sense, a a sight to see, man, the Lord's doing something.

[00:17:15]And we all need people that call those things out in us. Yeah.

[00:17:19]>> What I mean, I'm sure there's there's got to be people that you could name as you started into worship leading that were that filled that same role. Who was it that was like, I see something? I had a youth director in my middle school years who was incredible. His name is Brian Richardson. Uh he's at Second Baptist in Springfield, Missouri. And uh he was here at DFW going to seminary.

[00:17:46]And he's the one who really got me into just Christian music really in a way that not only I could I consume it, but I could help contribute to it.

[00:17:54]>> So, he's the one who said, "You should learn to play an instrument." And that's why I started playing bass because it's the I I don't want to be rude, but it's the easiest of the stringed instruments, right?

[00:18:03]>> Well, there's only four, [laughter] >> right?

[00:18:06]>> Instead of six.

[00:18:07]>> And and then after he graduated, he moved. And we had to have someone to lead the music for our student ministry.

[00:18:15]And so I quickly learned this is in 1995 when thankfully many songs were only three chords.

[00:18:22]>> Very simple. Yeah.

[00:18:23]>> So I got to work with three chords and literally I was just kind of a Wednesday night ahead of people >> trying to learn how to figure out to play the songs at all. Not even thinking really about leading them, but just how can I play these songs appropriately without messing them up.

[00:18:40]>> So that was the start for you. That would have been I mean around the same age, right? I mean >> Yeah.

[00:18:46]>> Well, before high school, I guess. Oh, yeah. This is my >> freshman year of high school.

[00:18:51]>> Okay.

[00:18:52]>> And then by my junior year, I'm leading for adults.

[00:18:56]>> Yeah.

[00:18:56]>> And I just I the Lord was doing a tremendous work in my heart during those years. And all I knew to do was sing about it.

[00:19:05]>> And so I do remember the first song that I wrote. It had four chords, not three, and it was in C# minor, which felt interesting.

[00:19:15]>> Okay, that's a jump. I was gonna say I think Johnny Cash only knew three or four chords, >> but he wouldn't have written something in C minor.

[00:19:23]>> I was also in a rock band at the time, so to do things kind of dark and brooding was was kind of the the thing of the day.

[00:19:30]>> But I I started leading there. And then the Lord just placed a real burden on my heart for church planting. And so the two things with with songwriting and church planting, I I've never gotten over those two things.

[00:19:43]>> And so through my 20s, I was at one church for the majority of those. Um and then in my 30s, uh and that church by God's grace, the one in my 20s, grew tremendously, and those were fruitful years of ministry. And then in our 30s, we went to Providence, which was much smaller than the church that I had come from, but thankfully had the ability to serve the church there and learned so much in those years, not only in what it meant to lead worship, but also to pastor people.

[00:20:13]>> So, I had [clears throat] the privilege of there of serving with Afen Zapat. And I feel like in those years, we kind of grew up in a lot of ways together learning to to love the Lord, learning to love the people of God. and then in 2018 planting the trails out of that and I didn't want to stop leading worship but we couldn't not plant this church and so I knew that would mean a a difference for me and I had a growing passion in my heart still to lead worship but just not in song >> because I see the practice of preaching still as an [clears throat] expression of leading worship all the service being >> uh ultimately uh worship unto God >> and so I I've been trying to wrestle through those things and and love getting to the Sundays that I preach.

[00:20:59]Absolutely love it. The Sundays where either David's preaching or just having a day of rest, me getting to lead the music that day. I love that. And so I'm grateful to be able to to serve God in both of those ways.

[00:21:12]>> Yeah. Do you feel do you feel like if your guitar is hanging on the wall for a couple weeks, do you start to get that like let's say you've preached three weeks in a row, do you get an itch like, "Oh man, I I want to pick up the guitar.

[00:21:27]I miss I want to I want to lead music or or is it something that you feel like, okay, if I if I if we need someone to do it, I'm happy to do it.

[00:21:37]>> I'm happy to have the guitar hang on the wall for a long time."

[00:21:40]>> Really? Okay.

[00:21:40]>> Yeah. And I think happy to show up and have I mean David's a much better guitar player than me anyway, so I'm happy to show up at church and have him the one playing guitar. Um I love leading God's people in songs still. Yeah. That has not diminished a bit.

[00:21:53]>> Mhm.

[00:21:53]>> Um I And it's taken different forms.

[00:21:55]Sometimes I'll stand up on a Sunday and after communion >> and just have everybody open their himnels and we'll just sing unaccompanied. So I'm still getting to lead sometimes those ways and at pastor's conferences and missions conferences and those things. So, I'm around it enough here. Here's what I know. Even going back all the way to the beginning of doxology and theology, I've been studying the worship of God a as a as a committed practice for 32 years. I've been leading music now for 32 years or preaching. I've been leading God's people in some way. And I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface >> of my own understanding of it.

[00:22:42]>> And the heart behind beginning this at the start was trying to reach young worship leaders 18, 23, 26, us at those ages, >> and try to provide a resource that didn't exist when we were those ages.

[00:23:02]>> Yeah. Um, and so I I I want to just think about ongoing learning.

[00:23:08]>> Um, so let me let's just maybe take the conversation there. What has ongoing learning looked like for you in the practice and pastoral side of of corporate worship?

[00:23:21]>> How have you continued to grow through these years? Yeah, I mean I I I what comes to my mind I mean for sure kind of the lowhanging fruit reading is I think just has been huge. Um and I mean I mean reading stuff that might be related to to ministry specific but honestly just just growing in a knowledge of the word just just theology. Um you guys know I I went and got my Mdive much later in in life. I didn't do it right out of college. So that was a huge component um to just deepening my understanding of of the scriptures which then I mean if we want word centered gatherings whether that's preaching or music or honestly anything else that happens in the church building on a Sunday >> or with God's people as they're meeting throughout the week it's it's word driven. It just has to be. You got to be able to show people >> here's why we do what we do and here's where we see it in the scriptures. So just generally reading and growing in in my love of the word and in theology has affected every single aspect of ministry.

[00:24:27]>> Yeah.

[00:24:28]>> And then honestly I mean in terms of of real practical even music stuff I mean just the amount of resources we have on things like YouTube is is great. That's >> it's been really helpful. So, >> could I just ask, is there any book on corporate worship that was specifically formative for you?

[00:24:50]>> Well, I'll tell you one book that I think is just a a classic. Worship Matters by Bob Coughlin is such a great one when when I'm helping train younger worship leaders. That's sort of always where we start. Um, I mean, this is this is getting a little more nerdy. You you like that?

[00:25:07]>> No, we go nerdy. That's fine. Well, I don't know if it's that nerdy, but like Brian Chapel's Christ-Centered Worship, that's a great one.

[00:25:12]>> Is a great one.

[00:25:13]>> That's a great one.

[00:25:14]>> Just seeing the history of it all and the structures tell stories. Yes. Right.

[00:25:19]First words in that book. Yeah. Yep.

[00:25:21]>> So helpful.

[00:25:22]>> So good. Yeah.

[00:25:23]>> Praise God for the work Brian Chapel's done. What's interesting is you talking about doing an MD. And by the way, none of us are later in life. We're just, you know, solidly middle-aged men.

[00:25:34]>> That's right. But and it's interesting you mentioned that as a way to continue to grow. You've done the exact same thing.

[00:25:40]>> Yeah. So I mean similarly I I tend to be bookish. So even before seminary I enjoyed I enjoyed reading theology and and um wanting to grow as as a minister of the word and and knowing that uh I can learn a lot from people who have done this before me and and have written good books on it. Similarly, yeah, went back to seminary and and was able to study online, which is which is a neat option for people who are already maybe in the job that they would want out of seminary, right? And so getting to stay a pastor and stay here at the church.

[00:26:12]What maybe an encouragement for our listeners is the these [clears throat] are more formal opportunities for learning that we're talking about. What one of the informal ways that I've learned and grown the most over the past eight years is like conversations like we're having right now in our green room or in your study or when we're, you know, hanging out in Denver and we're just getting dinner together and we're talking about doing ministry together. And I think that's what's been so exciting for me about getting to getting to do this podcast. So, just looking forward over some of the episodes that we want to do.

[00:26:47]We wanted to get into the nuts and bolts of uh what it's like to lead worship.

[00:26:52]Things like picking songs and why a liturgy is important. going back to Brian Chapel's book and how to prepare your heart for for worship, the importance of the different elements so that maybe people who wouldn't naturally pick up that book and read it on their own or doesn't have the time or the resources to devote the next three years to getting an MD can kind of pick up some of those nuggets from this conversation. And so even thinking about who's the audience for this this podcast, well, it's Christians broadly, but I think specifically uh pastors and worship leaders, people who are involved in planning a service. We hope that this is um an informal way to just get to hear from people who have done this maybe longer than they have. Invite them in on conversations that we're having all the time and and say, "Here's how we think about things and maybe here are some things you can you can learn and bring back to your own church."

[00:27:45]>> Yeah. David, same question. What's been the book that's most helped your formation in regard to corporate worship?

[00:27:53]>> Uh, so this this worship leader in Colleen, Texas, gave me Bob Coughlin's book, Worship Matters, I remember that was kind of paradigm shifting for me because I just hadn't seen anything like that before. Um, I I love biblical theology and so David Peterson's book on is it um engaging with God where he basically kind of traces worship throughout the Old and New Testament.

[00:28:16]That was another sort of shift in paradigm to look at not just what are churches doing today, which can be tempting to to try to model your service after maybe what another cooler church is doing, but to say what does the Bible say about this? What what patterns are already established in scripture that we can model today? And then rooting that in also this is how the church has been doing it historically, right? That's what they've cared about. We should do a whole episode on books.

[00:28:42]>> I was going to say the same thing. Yeah, we that would be amazing.

[00:28:46]>> Yeah.

[00:28:46]>> So, I'll just >> I don't know if anyone else would like it, but we would nerd out on it. We would love it.

[00:28:50]>> Yeah, we would love it.

[00:28:51]>> And we'll do it.

[00:28:52]>> And we'll do it.

[00:28:53]>> I think for me the book that was so helpful was Worship by the Book. It was edited by Don Carson.

[00:29:01]>> How old is that?

[00:29:02]>> And it was published in 2002. Thanks for asking. I also know the ISBN number. No, I mean [laughter] I don't [snorts] tell you I can tell you if we're doing footnotes. It's Grand Rapids. We don't do that with the new Chicago, but Grand Rapids Baker 2002.

[00:29:19]>> Okay.

[00:29:19]>> I don't know the ISBN, but I thought that [laughter] now it's nerdy.

[00:29:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. But I think that showed me how in a Baptist expression, free church, Presbyterian context, the Anglican communion, we can have faithful representations of what it means to be word governed.

[00:29:40]>> Mhm.

[00:29:41]>> In um in our practices across the spectrum of denominations, >> I just love the vision that it gave that that for me. I it's interesting uh as I mentioned a few minutes ago being solidly middle-aged now I think the way that I have grown most I'm I'm specifically thinking these last two to three years is doing something that I haven't been comfortable with for a long time and that's articulating specific convictions when it comes to corporate worship being asked questions by younger worship leaders >> and younger pastors it's forc force me to be able to think more carefully and to then be able to articulate my thinking in a way that will serve them.

[00:30:26]So when I think about growth the last few years, I think young guys trying to sort all of this out and and the joy that I have found in that. And >> so you're saying that it's the questions that you've received that is helping sharpen you going, man, I I I need to have a good answer for this.

[00:30:43]>> Oh, yeah. because there's so many questions that that that church leaders are asking. We're not all asking the same questions.

[00:30:51]>> And so just having to articulate the same truth from a different angle or the same conviction or value specifically applied to the question has just been good for me.

[00:31:00]>> Yeah. I think it that jives totally with what you just said, which I think is is I mean that's the heart of what we're doing is how much have we been shaped just by conversation.

[00:31:12]>> Yeah. You can read a book. You can you can you can do it. You can go get reps, right, as a worship leader or do it in different contexts.

[00:31:20]>> But there is I mean I've been shaped by you guys just just watching and >> and asking questions.

[00:31:27]>> So hopefully what we're doing here is here's what I know. It will be of great benefit to the three of us. And if anyone else wants to listen in, that'd be great, too.

[00:31:36]>> That's right. Well, maybe Yeah. Maybe as we wrap up this episode, again, another encouragement for our listeners is we we want to hear from people, right? We we want to get to um hear the questions, especially that newer pastors or worship leaders might be might be wrestling through. And so, we'll include an option, an email address, uh that people can write in questions. And as we uh think about future episodes, we can even do maybe like a mailbag episode, [music] but we can we can start to think through some of these specific questions and uh and and come up with episodes that address [music] those going forward.

[00:32:09]>> I'm so excited to get to do this together, guys.

[00:32:11]>> Me, too. This is awesome.

[00:32:12]>> I can't wait.

[00:32:13]>> Well, thanks for this first conversation. [music] Let's keep going.

[00:32:16]>> Love you guys. Let's have another one.

[00:32:18]All right. See you guys.