31 person impeachment committee‼️

Added: 2026-05-18

[00:00:01]Mbuyiseni Ndlozi asked an interesting question today. Let me read it for you.

[00:00:05]What is so special about Senzo Mchunu?

[00:00:09]Sisi Tolashe, dismissed as Minister of Social Development following severe allegations regarding misconduct, including registering vehicles donated to the ANC Women's League under her children's name.

[00:00:23]Dr. Naledi Pandor, Gabane, July 2025.

[00:00:27]Removed as Minister of Higher Education and Training following allegations of misconduct regarding appointments to the Sector Education and Training Authorities, SETAs. Enoch Godongwana, Whitfield, June 2025. Dismissed as Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry and Competition.

[00:00:46]And this was pertaining to the America trips and all of that stuff. Remember that?

[00:00:50]The Democratic Alliance member was removed for traveling to the US without presidential permission.

[00:00:57]Barbara Creecy, November 2025. Removed as Minister of Forestry, Fisheries, and the Environment with reports suggesting underperformance.

[00:01:08]So, Ndlozi asked the question following the announcement that Sisi Tolashe would be removed as Minister of Social Development. He asked the question.

[00:01:18]What is so special about Senzo Mchunu? We saw some reports that over 2 million has been spent on him while he's suspended. So, Ndlozi wants to know, what's so special?

[00:01:30]What's so special? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think in the comment section? The Madlanga Commission is still circling General Kahn. Still circling General Cardo. Trying to understand what exactly did they do in the Arett drug bust?

[00:01:46]On the side of the National Assembly, there's progress in the impeachment committee preparations. Let's get into it. Let's get into it. But, before we do that, let me greet you properly. Let me greet you properly. Oushe lo za, oushe lo za, oushe lo za, welcome to another episode of the dissection where we cut from the skin to the bone marrow, leave it hollow. Oushe lo za, South Yorkshire, Lat on Village, I think it's how you say it. Oushe lo za, Mahikeng eMalahleni Oushe lo za, Giyani Oushe lo za, Polokwane, Oushe lo za, Giyani Oushe lo za, eMelo, Oushe lo za, Witbank, Soshanguve Mabopane, Newcastle, Nongoma Oushe lo zi bye Oushe lo za, Mdantsane, Gugulethu, Khayelitsha Oushe lo za, Nairobi Windhoek, Maseru, Gaborone Dar es Salaam, Harare Accra, Douala, New York New Jersey, Dublin, Berlin, Sydney, Melbourne, Hong Kong wherever you're watching from Oushe lo za, welcome to the show and please don't forget to tell us in the comments section where you're watching from the dissection nation is one family.

[00:02:50]Let's do it empirically, surgically, logically, actually, factually tactically methodically methodologically, methodically. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Hey!

[00:02:59]Impeachment, it's it's yeah, it's coming.

[00:03:02]Kganwane kganwane, yes, on daily impeachment. The speaker has announced the composition of the impeachment committee the one that will look into whether or not the conduct of the president as it pertains to the Phala Phala scandal meets the threshold of impeachment as per section 89 of the constitution. The The committee is going to be quite a large committee if I'm being honest, 31 members. 31 members nine seats to the ANC five seats to the Democratic Alliance three seats to uMkhonto weSizwe, two seats to the EFF one each to 12 other political parties. So, all of the other smaller political parties will be getting one seat each, that includes uh Build One's South Africa, ACDP, etc. And political parties will be requested to submit the names of members who will serve on the committee to the National Assembly Secretariat by the close of business on Friday, the 22nd of May. So, things are moving. I don't even know why they need all of that time to just say their names. I'm sure they already know their names. The composition was guided by the National Assembly Rule 154.1, which states that parties are entitled to representation in committees substantially proportional to their representation in Parliament. I quote from Parliament, "The effect of giving each party represented in the National Assembly a minimum of one member to enable participation by all is that it skews the proportional strength of the house in favor of the smaller parties.

[00:04:39]This is only mitigated with larger composition of the committee with a limited proportional feature. Pure proportional representation will completely exclude smaller parties."

[00:04:50]So, on the one side, smaller parties are represented, this is a good thing. On the other side, it then bloats this committee, makes it extremely large.

[00:04:58]What this basically means is for the purposes of a hearing, you can imagine just on a on a day, how many minutes is each speaker given? How many times does each person get to speak? How many times do they get to cross-examine? How many times do they get to ask, you know, probing questions? This can be really limiting for um in-depth questioning. We already saw in the um ad hoc committee that sometimes members of Parliament would run out of time uh asking some questions to witnesses.

[00:05:32]They wouldn't actually get a lot of room to ask the questions which would go much further. So, let's say you ask a question on layer one, you ask layer two, before you know it, your time's up.

[00:05:44]So, maybe you ask, "President, what's your relationship with Bejani Chauke?"

[00:05:47]He says, "He's my advisor." He goes on and on. "No, speaker. My time My time is finishing." He goes on and on and on. He says, "No, I need to answer properly."

[00:05:54]Then he goes on and on. Then when he's done explaining that he's his advisor, you wanted to ask, "Did you instruct him to go with Wally Rhoode to Namibia to collect your money?" And maybe you want to ask follow-up questions about Bosasa.

[00:06:08]Maybe you want to actually establish that the assistance that the president has been getting from Bejani Chauke is long-standing, multi-layered, and also there's been reporting from News24 that he was taking a lot of trips with the president to Dubai, etc., etc. You want to ask all of those questions, but if they give you 3 minutes, how are you going to ask all of those questions? And sometimes what happens then the questions get repetitive, and it's inevitable that some of the people who'll be asking questions will also be asking those questions to fluff the time, to spend as much time on non- essential questions because there's a game theory to this in that those who are from the president's party may also be instructed by the NEC to do their very best to make sure that they protect the interests of the president, the reputation of the president, and in so doing may actually undercut the fact-finding nature of this particular impeachment committee. And of course, it is in the ANC's interest to try to design a committee process which will buffer and be the softest to the president who comes from their political party. There's That is That is a given.

[00:07:23]But inasmuch as all of that is true, I don't think that it's not it's necessarily going to help avoid some of the hard questions. For example, what is the source of the money?

[00:07:36]That's a 10-second question. And political parties will then have to be strategic to then allow for the progression of the questioning, not for everyone to repeat the question 15 times. That sometimes happened with some of the most important witnesses, and it was frustrating to watch. So, I think the committee members need to understand litigation techniques. There's a book actually called litigation techniques. I have it around here somewhere, but I um maybe I'll post it in the in the in the description.

[00:08:06]That's going to be something that's going to be important for them to do and for them to apply themselves. But let's let's let's think through who could be on that committee. From the EFF, you've obviously got Julius Malema. He's going to be there. Do they go again with um Lien Mathyse, or do they go with a different combo altogether? Maybe put Sitinawutambo, maybe put uh Siphile Buthelezi there, maybe put someone senior who they think can really put it to the president in a big way. Then obviously, you'll have uh from the Patriotic Alliance, you'll have our our our honorable one there, Ashley Solomons, saying, "President, you've got holes, but you're also holy, but you've got holes.

[00:08:52]Thank you for your contribution to drafting the constitution, leading the unions. The mine workers, thank you uh for the new dawn. Thank you for the sun that rises in the east and sets in the west. President, let me ask you now, if you count the holes and you count the holiness, are you a pope or are you not a pope?"

[00:09:17]You know how honorable Solomons going to go. You know how he's going to go with the holes and the holiness and some have got holes and some have got >> [laughter] >> Then you've got honorable James.

[00:09:27]Honorable James is going to cook.

[00:09:30]They're going to be telling her, "Come down. This is our president." "No, I won't come down. I won't come down. He needs to uh Honorable James going to be cooking. So, regardless of the level of minutes, I think that there's still going to be a lot that happens here. A lot of members of parliament also have something to prove.

[00:09:51]If you have a small party, the concern that people have is that the small party is going to be co-opted, maybe offered something, asked sweetheart questions, that type of thing.

[00:10:02]But, small parties also have an incentive to survive, to grow, to get bigger. So, some of the names here may be willing to really show the nation that, "Hey, you've been overlooking us."

[00:10:14]You know, you haven't been, um, taking us as seriously as you need to take us.

[00:10:19]You've been sleeping on us, so to speak.

[00:10:21]In battle, legends are made. Some men make their name on the battlefield. And it may very well be the case that as we go into this, we will then begin to see some of the people try to make a name for themselves. Even this year, honorable Ngola, honorable, um, who else really stood out? Honorable James, you know, some of the names we knew prior to this. We knew, uh, Julius Malema, Lindiwe Mazibuko, all of that. But, some of the people really came into their own and stood out within the committee. Ngola was not playing games with nobody. I think also, uh, honorable Nomvula, he was not a known entity in in like the broader national discourse. But, now he is a known entity and I think it actually helped him to secure his own position within the ranks of the Umkhonto weSizwe party. So, if you think about those dynamics, there are going to be people within even the smaller parties who are going to want to really show that they care about accountability, they care about transparency, they've been reading the room, and they actually want to participate at a high level. Obviously, uh, Zuma Zuma is going to be difficult for the president to navigate. He's going to be in that committee as well.

[00:11:38]There going to be a lot of people in that committee who want to get to the bottom of the issues even though it does feel a little bit bloated. 31 Yeah, 31 is a lot. I'm I'm just trying to think if there's ever been a committee that large. And I'm also trying to think if it would have been necessary to have all of the smaller parties represented because at the ad hoc they were not all represented. But, you know, I guess you could have done some kind of like randomized system or whatever the case may be. But, in any event, the mission is to get to the bottom of the facts. We'll have to see how everybody does in terms of their own individual performance. This impeachment committee cannot be stopped by a review application um on the face of it.

[00:12:26]The review application would have to come with an interdict in order for it to be able to stop the impeachment committee from uh starting its process and continuing with its process. And in fact, the courts have been loath to stop a proceeding of this nature. And in fact, in the Was a See When Quevana impeachment proceeding proceedings, that's exactly what happened. And if you think about it today, the high court said that the issue of the arms deal case has to go on regardless of any other legal um steps that are taken by Jacob Zuma and uh the French company Thales to slow down the process or to appeal or to whatever. They said we got to go go on with this trial. We're done with Stalingrad. What that means is that it's going to be very difficult for Mr. Ramaphosa to then rely on a similar tactic. Right now, it looks as if the committee will go on. Obviously, right now the dates have not been put in place. They're buying a little bit of time here by asking for the names by 22 May. I don't know why it had to take that long for for the names to come out.

[00:13:30]Then we'll have to then see what dates are set, but the the wheels are in motion. The wheels are in motion. Right, let's let's move on now to the second topic, which is what has been happening at the Madlanga Commission. Today was relatively interesting actually because the witness was not interested whatsoever.

[00:13:50]Whatsoever at the Madlanga Commission.

[00:13:52]He wasn't interested in mentioning two names, General Khan and General Carder.

[00:13:57]It looked like he was willing to take the fall, no matter what other evidence the Commission brought before him. They say, "Listen to the statements. Listen to that version. This eyewitness saw him." This person is like, "No, no, no, no, they weren't there. They weren't there."

[00:14:11]So, today um on Thursday, 14th May, the witness testifying before the Madlanga Commission was Lieutenant Colonel Gwanasebola. And he's from the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, the Hawks. Now, he is the DPCI official who took over the Errol Cotton drug uh seizure crime scene from Chief Samuel Mashaba and from Marumo Makane. And then he arrested the mix etc. But, there's a question around how exactly did he take over. So, there's two versions that I'm going to play for you.

[00:14:46]First, just listen to how he was denying everything. Oh, he was denying it. Yeah.

[00:14:52]>> [laughter and gasps] >> Oh my word, the denial is longer than the River Nile. I'm telling you, this denial is longer than the River Nile.

[00:14:59]Listen to this.

[00:15:00]So, it seems to me that Khan, General Khan, played a significant role at the scene.

[00:15:08]Um Mhoboja goes as as far as quality as saying that he was in charge of the scene at a particular point.

[00:15:16]And so, to me it your answer to Commissioner Baloyi um seems insufficient because it appears from the docket that Khan played a very significant role at least in the time that he was there.

[00:15:34]And just to say that um General Khan does also confirm that uh General Khan was at the scene and gave him a briefing.

[00:15:46]I think I have answered it to say I never interacted with General Khan.

[00:15:54]I even further say for on on on the issue that can you dispute the fact that General General Khan was there?

[00:16:03]I am say still say I can't dispute if he was there, but the only thing that I did I did have never I never had any contact with General Khan.

[00:16:19]I suppose Colonel oh If he had taken over the scene, would you not have seen that?

[00:16:27]Because one of the statements that uh Miss Powell referred us to says uh that General Khan took over the scene.

[00:16:35]If if that had happened, would you not have seen it?

[00:16:38]Commissioners if when I was >> Especially as as especially as I understand the situation you were now in charge of the scene.

[00:16:48]Or not?

[00:16:50]It would never have happened in when I I'm in charge of the scene. Yeah.

[00:16:56]How how how do you explain the statement that says he took over the scene?

[00:17:01]No, I'm saying when I took over the scene, I got it to I was I got it from Sergeant Ndlovu. Yes, I know. I know.

[00:17:09]So, which would mean that he either took the scene over from you or further down the line from somebody who might have taken it over from you.

[00:17:19]But uh I don't think anybody else took it over from you. So, would you not have seen him if he had taken over the scene?

[00:17:26]>> I would have I would have seen him.

[00:17:28]Unless if he came before me because when I look at the time frame, let's speak about someone is saying nine, the other one is saying 10.

[00:17:36]But Before before I don't want to use Before does not seem does not look possible.

[00:17:43]So Not on the information that we have.

[00:17:45]I'm saying before does not look possible.

[00:17:48]>> It does not look possible.

[00:17:50]Even in my presence, it did not happen.

[00:17:52]So, my question then is are you able to explain the statement that says that at some stage he took over the scene?

[00:18:01]No, he did not.

[00:18:03]Thank you.

[00:18:04]You see what what he says in his statement, this is General Khan.

[00:18:10]He says when he left, he left the scene he left General Khadwa in charge of the scene. That's what Khan says.

[00:18:17]Um >> [clears throat] >> He he's he's at the scene at some point that you say you in charge of.

[00:18:26]He approached the members who is standing next to the black backy. So, we know he was at the scene. Yes. Um in fact, Pakula does say that he was at some point they were made to stand next to the backy.

[00:18:40]Um he introduced himself as Khan.

[00:18:44]He asked them what they were doing there.

[00:18:47]Uh then one of them was Maluleke told me that this was his operation and that he was from the DPCI Pretoria.

[00:18:54]These are the members that are standing next to the black vehicle.

[00:18:59]I asked him who his commander was and he said Colonel Bock.

[00:19:03]He gave me the number whom I called.

[00:19:05]Bock told me he was not aware of the operation. I think Miss Powell has done that with you.

[00:19:11]Then he says, "I then saw a member that I recognized on the scene, Warrant Officer Pakula."

[00:19:19]And Pakula does say that this man was there.

[00:19:23]Uh and we know that Pakula would have been on your on your version you called into the scene. So, Pakula would have been there because in the end he's one of the people that I arrested.

[00:19:34]Khan says, "I saw Pakula there."

[00:19:37]>> [clears throat] >> And asked him the same question, "Requested the number of his superior."

[00:19:43]Uh he then spoke to Mahane, the member who was driving the black bakkie.

[00:19:49]"Told me his name, asked him for the details of his superior.

[00:19:54]Um and he told me that he didn't know.

[00:19:57]He was just about to accompany his friend Mashaba to the operation."

[00:20:04]Um I decided that more investigation is required. I called Kadwa.

[00:20:10]So, General Khan calls Kadwa.

[00:20:12]General Khan is on the scene. He calls Kadwa. General Kadwa, rather.

[00:20:17]Um I requested him to come to the scene.

[00:20:21]I also called General Likalakala. I think he's the one that General you wanted. So, Khan is placing himself on the scene.

[00:20:29]And he introduced He also calls Kadwa.

[00:20:31]You say you were told later that Kadwa was there standing.

[00:20:35]Um >> [clears throat] >> And then he called somebody else, Myisela, who is the commander of Mashaba.

[00:20:42]Um who told him they were looking for Mashaba and they didn't know about the operation.

[00:20:48]Kadwa and Likalakala arrived on the scene. He explained the situation to them.

[00:20:54]After a few minutes, I left the scene.

[00:20:59]And then I then informed my divisional commissioner, and then I received a call from Sipungo who asked me for permission to visit the scene.

[00:21:09]I told him to please contact Quad Kadwa, who was left in charge of the scene. So, on General Khan's account, you were never in charge of the scene. That's on his account. You were never on the scene. And this is a statement, it's part of the docket.

[00:21:27]>> [clears throat] >> You were never in charge of the scene.

[00:21:30]Kadwa was in charge of the scene.

[00:21:35]What What I'm seeking to make sense of is in your statement, you don't mention Kadwa. In your evidence, you say you were told he was there. So, on your account, he was just in inactive there.

[00:21:51]But Khan places him on the scene.

[00:21:54]Pakula makes him active on the scene, because Pakula explains, "This is what Khan did." Which coincides with what Khan has done here in his statement.

[00:22:06]We've also seen WhatsApp exchanges between Khan and Pakula, which confirm that Khan was on the scene.

[00:22:15]So, that you don't mention him at all and is the first curiosity, but two and Kadwa as well.

[00:22:26]One and then two, that you say you you could not have seen him. You didn't see him.

[00:22:36]Um it's it's difficult to comprehend if if you were in charge. So, in my mind, there are It would make sense if you were not in charge of the scene.

[00:22:49]Right? If If you were not placing yourself as the in charge of the scene, I would say, "I can see how you may have missed him." You know, maybe you were focusing on other things.

[00:23:00]Um but as the in charge of the scene forget for now that there's this contradiction here of who was in charge of the scene in fact because you say you were, Khan says you were and then he says he left Kadwa in charge of the scene. Forget for a second that.

[00:23:21]If you were in charge of the scene you must you would have known Khan is there given how he describes what he was doing.

[00:23:32]Forget what Sep- Sepia says and the strangeness in his statement. Let's work just with what Khan himself says that a general who places himself as being that active on the scene either you were not on the same scene with him and so you didn't see any of that.

[00:23:56]Uh, or he's being untruthful about being on the scene and being as active or you are the one that's being untruthful about seeing him, not seeing him on the scene, um, and therefore not accounting for him.

[00:24:16]But that also goes for Kadwa as well.

[00:24:19]Um, I think you have there has to be an explanation for that which which which is at best curious. Um And and maybe let me finish off by saying that >> [clears throat] >> even if you had not seen him on the scene you come to know you say through the IPID process. And for purposes of our discussion now, um, prepared to assume or accept that it's the first time you came to know that Khan was on the scene when you now dealing with the with the IPID process.

[00:24:59]You You prepared this statement to the commission uh very recently.

[00:25:05]You don't say, and I would have expected you to say, "I was informed.

[00:25:12]Uh I learn later that General Khan was on the scene."

[00:25:18]And I see this from other people's statement because this is your docket.

[00:25:22]So, I see it in the docket, but I it should only become became aware of it when I dealt with uh with IPID. You're completely quiet about just Khan's presence at the scene, completely.

[00:25:38]Uh Kadwa, you minimize his role to being a bystander. That's I don't understand it.

[00:25:48]So, Commissioner Kadwa did You You said You don't mention You You said in your statement, you said very little about Kadwa as well. I remember noting it somewhere. In fact, it You You refer to him in quite a confusing way.

[00:26:01]At paragraph 11 of your statement, you say, "Colonel Ludik then arrived immediately after he dropped his phone with General Kadwa and Brigadier Louwela and I approached Colonel Ludik."

[00:26:15]Ludik, rather. So, that that's the only mention of of of of Kadwa that I picked up, and please correct me if I'm wrong, in your statement. And then in your oral when you were testifying now earlier in the day, you said, "Well, yeah, Kadwa, I heard later that he was there." Uh he was standing there somewhere, but he never played any active role. I think that's how I remember your evidence.

[00:26:40]>> Kadwa Khan, Commissioner. Kadwa. Kadwa.

[00:26:44]Kadwa.

[00:26:45]So, I'm saying two things to you. Your statement is completely silent about Khan.

[00:26:52]Even your oral evidence, completely quiet, silent about General Khan.

[00:26:58]You are silent about him even as you have a docket of statements that place him on the scene.

[00:27:05]And his own statement where he places himself on the scene. You say nothing. You not even "I later became aware when I was dealing with Ipid that General Khan was there and this is what he's supposed to have done." You don't say anything like that to us in your statement. So, reading your statement, you give the impression because you are counting, it's your say.

[00:27:31]You are counting for what happened in the time that you were there. Your statement gives the impression, "Oh, this is all that had the people that were there." You mentioned many, many names. You don't mention Khan. So, Khan was not there when one reads your statement because nothing is said about him.

[00:27:47]And then you mention Kadwa in passing, in paragraph 11. Someone was talking to him. I've read for you that paragraph 11.

[00:27:56]Uh you say, uh Ludik immediately, he arrived immediately after he dropped his phone with Kadwa.

[00:28:05]And that's all you say about Kadwa.

[00:28:08]And in your oral evidence now, testimony, you said Kadwa, you later learned that Kadwa was there standing somewhere. You didn't deal with him on the scene. I think that's how I remember your evidence. So, what I'm what I'm putting to you is >> [clears throat] >> it's quite strange >> Maybe I did not Can I get clarity in terms of General Kadwa?

[00:28:31]Yes. That the Commissioner is Commissioner is saying, "I later learned that he is there." You I think I understood you in your oral evidence.

[00:28:40]And that you say, "Kadwa was there, but he played no active role."

[00:28:47]Am I am I wrong in my recollection of that >> You are correct, Commissioner. Yes.

[00:28:52]That's something you say in your oral evidence, right?

[00:28:55]But Khan says he left him in charge of the scene.

[00:29:00]And >> [clears throat] >> so what I'm putting to you or what I'm raising with you as a matter of concern and that at this point requires a satisfactory explanation is how could you have missed the presence of Khan?

[00:29:19]If you were in charge of the scene and he tells us in that statement what he did on the scene.

[00:29:27]He I I assume Khan has no reason to lie about being on the scene.

[00:29:34]He has no reason to to lie about it. So he places himself on the scene.

[00:29:39]How could you not have seen him if this was your scene?

[00:29:44]That that does require an explanation.

[00:29:53]You may You may You may answer.

[00:29:56]Commissioner, I I I still maintain I did not see General Khan on the scene.

[00:30:03]I did not interact with General Khan on the scene. For him to say General Khan was in charge of the scene, I don't know where he get it from.

[00:30:13]Because General Khan, even when Colonel Stein was there, Colonel Stein was the one who was briefing briefing General Khan. That is why I cannot say anything about him.

[00:30:27]Even when the Brigadier Brigadier Swemela arrived, I was not the one who was briefing him about because I briefed Colonel Stein.

[00:30:36]He was talking to this. And then also I get to know that the general the [clears throat] other general present there was General Khala Khala. I did not see the two I did not see. I still maintain when I took over the scene I have never I never came across that.

[00:30:55]When I was engaging with Rihoxo, yes, he confirmed that it is just that maybe you were not careful.

[00:31:03]Khadro Khana was there and but to me I did not see. I've never engaged General Khan.

[00:31:10]Never talked to him on the scene.

[00:31:12]And and General Khan was never in charge of my scene.

[00:31:16]Clearly, he does not want to concede what happened with General Khan and General Khadwa. And in fact, he may not want to concede those things because what has been said about their conduct and behavior is equally troubling. So, his whole mission was to say, "No, let me tell you Boy Pakula, Makhani, all of these guys, they were misbehaving, they were here to steal the drugs. I came in there, you know, like Rambo. I'm out here, I'm taking one prick of the drugs, I'm determining that it's cocaine. I'm sorting all these guys out. Nobody's going to get out of here.

[00:31:51]You get an arrest. You get an arrest.

[00:31:53]You get an arrest. You Everybody's getting arrested. Nobody's going to steal this cocaine."

[00:31:58]That's his version. But when he got probed in the second part of his testimony, he got probed so much they told him, "You need to come back, Baba. We're not done with you. You need to come back. We're not even through the documents." So, he's going to have to come back, but yesterday, the witness was Boy Steve Pakula and he is attached to the South African Police National Intervention Unit. He corroborated some of Makhani's version.

[00:32:28]He seemed really to be on the side of Makhani, but his narrative was different significantly to the way it was presented today by Sebola. Before I play you the narrative, this is what it looks like.

[00:32:42]It looks like there's this guy from Transnet who used to work at Transnet, Itumeleng Khoo. Right? I think this Itumeleng Khoo character, as he's working at Transnet, becomes aware of what's going on at the docks or whatever the case may be. And then he decides that, "Hey, I'm not going to work at Transnet anymore. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I am going to work with whoever is stealing these drugs from these, uh, you know, containers, and we're going to get into the game." So, he's even there at the Airport drug bust in a car. He's sending messages to and fro with another person, and it looks as if that that's he what he he figured out.

[00:33:23]He was who clever and yeah, because he he spotted that there were some criminality happening at the ports, and he was like, "I'm I'm getting in on this. I'm getting in on this." That's what it looks like, Mr. Khoo. That's what it looks like.

[00:33:37]So, he was there. He was being described as an informer by one side of the equation.

[00:33:42]That's, uh, the Makhane side. But then, you know, today they denied that he was an informer. He wasn't registered with any informer database, etc. But it looks like that's what happened. So, you've got Itumeleng Khoo figures this out and working with other people to steal these drugs. Then it looks as if you've got some people in law enforcement who are actually also involved in the delivery of these drugs. Because when we heard about the rip on and the rip off, one of the things that was discussed is that as the drugs land in the destination country, there are police officers and other authorities who actually participate in making sure that those drugs are offloaded without being detected.

[00:34:23]So, here's what was said yesterday, and as you listen, you begin to connect some of the dots. It's a a of a long clip, but I think it's essential to hear everything that this gentleman says because you begin to see the picture and the complications as they are associated to this particular story.

[00:34:40]At around quarter past 10:00, Captain Mido arrived closely followed by a talking unit members, Sergeant Pakula and and Sergeant Sappi.

[00:34:49]I went and briefed them about what was happening on the scene and I also introduced them to Warrant Officer Mohana and Chief Mashaba. While waiting for the photographers, a certain gentleman came and instructed the two police members to write their statements as he was now taking over the scene.

[00:35:05]I asked the gentleman who he was and that he should introduce him he should introduce himself as he already knew who I was. That member did not want to give his name and I told him that it that that is not procedural to walk in a crime scene and start giving instructions. He He said he is not going to listen to me and that General Khan was on his way.

[00:35:27]I said I said to that gentleman, "That is fine.

[00:35:31]He General Khan may come." I was later informed that the name of the gentleman was Warrant Officer Rikhotso from DPCI.

[00:35:40]Warrant Officer Rikhotso further asked if I had an inquiry registered for that operation and I told him there was no time to first drive to Pretoria to register an inquiry and then drive back to the scene as the delay would have defeated the purpose. The information was received was received that same morning and I had to act on information first. At that stage, I was approached by Sergeant Pakula who introduced me to Lieutenant Colonel Maluleke of SAPS National Head Office. They had just arrived together with Sergeant Masuma. I went and introduced Lieutenant Colonel Maluleke and Sergeant Masuma to Warrant Officer Mohana and Chief Mashaba.

[00:36:16]Sergeant Masuma was in possession of an inquiry file and he also showed me a message on his phone between him and his informant [clears throat] talking about the container from Durban. I remember the message on Sergeant Masuma's cell phone was received on a on a Thursday, the 8th of July, 2021.

[00:36:33]And it it read that the container with the consignment of trucks will be leaving the Durban the Durban Harbor to Gauteng. And that Sergeant Masuma must be on standby. After seeing the message, I was convinced this could be the same information and continued briefing them with the intention of handing over handing the scene over to them.

[00:36:51]I also pointed to them a suspect who was already placed under arrest. A Major General Kan arrived on the scene with within minutes. Major General Kan indeed arrived. I approached him and introduced myself to him.

[00:37:05]He asked me if my commander was aware of my whereabouts, and I said, "Yes."

[00:37:10]He requested my commander's number, and I gave him contact numbers of Colonel Sipungu.

[00:37:15]After a few minutes, he came back and said he got hold of my commander, and he confirmed my version. But something does not add up.

[00:37:24]I then went and stood with Lieutenant Maluleka while still waiting for the photographer. Major General Kan wanted to know who the driver of the black Nissan NP 200 was, and he instructed Warrant Officer Mohana to go and sit in the said vehicle. I was waiting for the photographer to arrive. I fetched the driver of the truck who was already standing on the side of the truck. I then brought him back and handed him >> [clears throat] >> him to Captain Midupi place him under arrest as I was busy trying to manage the scene. Captain Midupi cuffed him with cable ties. The reason the truck was not cuffed The The The reason the truck driver was not cuffed earlier was that he was going to drive the truck to the SAPS taking pound. After the arrival of Captain Midupi, he Captain Midupi told us that there is no need for the truck driver to drive the truck to the pound as he Captain Midupi will drive the truck. He has a code a code 14 driver's license. Once the photographer arrived, I introduced myself to her, and she also gave her name, which I forgot. I went to Major General Khan together with the lady photographer and found him standing with other two gentlemen whom I did not know, standing on the loading bay at the back of the trailer. I introduced the photographer to Major General General Khan and told him that the photographer has arrived and she wants to start with her duties. Major General General Khan told me to stand back and I did. I left the photographer with Major General Khan and went back to where the buggy was. I then removed the two seals were placed on the passenger side of the black buggy with the intention to get the photographer to take pictures of, but I was stopped by Lieutenant Colonel Ludick and Captain Sewula and I was told that they were now taking over the scene.

[00:39:02]Colonel Maluleke of Johannesburg DPCI approached me, Warrant Officer Mohana and Chief Mashaba and asked that we explain to him what happened and how did we get to the scene. We explained to him what transpired and he understood our version. Colonel Maluleke then left us and after a while he returned to where I was standing and told me to prepare my statement and otherwise I will be placed under arrest. Other members were also ordered to submit their statements include Lieutenant Colonel Maluleke, Captain Midupi, Sergeant Pakula, Sergeant Sarpe and Sergeant Masuma. I obliged and started writing my statement. I handed over my statement together with the statement of Zoline I took earlier as well as the waybill copies to Captain Sewula. Colonel Mabasa also approached me and requested my cell phones. I will I asked why, he told me I'm being arrested. So, I told Colonel Mabasa I want to make a phone call to my commander and he granted me permission to do so.

[00:39:56]Captain Midupi and I made a call to Brigadier Bale the section commander at National Investigation Unit and informed her what was happening. She further said she will not be able to come and that she will phone Colonel Sibungu to come to the scene. While waiting I was approached by Captain Sewula and another gentleman who demanded my phones and this time I handed them over to Captain Sewula. I was still standing and confused when Colonel Steyn came and aggressively told me he wanted my car keys, my appointment certificate and firearm. I handed him the car keys and the SAPS appointment card. However, the firearm was at home locked in a safe. Captain Dylan came and searched the car accompanied by the photographer who was taking pictures of the car I was driving.

[00:40:42]I was then placed under arrest by Captain Sewula at about 13:45. Captain Sewula was one of the last officers to arrive at the scene. However, he arrested us without a proper explanation of what we were arrested for.

[00:40:56]After a few minutes, we were instructed to get out of the Booysens Parkie. At that stage, there were several members of the media with cameras.

[00:41:04]I then saw Colonel Sipungu and he came and asked what was happening and I explained to him that I was under arrest.

[00:41:12]Colonel Sipungu went and I saw him talking to Colonel Steyn and General Kadwa.

[00:41:17]We were then ordered to stand next to a black Nissan bakkie where Brigadier Khovela and her DPCI members were busy offloading black bags from the back.

[00:41:30]At no stage were we were we handcuffed.

[00:41:34]I counted 35 bricks in each of the first 10 bags black bags that were opened in front of us. We were then we were told to get in the back of the Booysens SAPS police bakkie while they were still busy unpacking the exhibits from the black bags to the forensic exhibit bags.

[00:41:51]It was at around 19:30 when I was taken to Booysens SAPS where I was detained together with Warriors of the Soul Khana, Chief Mashaba and a gentleman I only I only knew when I was in the back of the police bakkie as Thumelo G.

[00:42:10]The suspects whom we placed under arrest, including the truck driver, were released. The truck and trailer with registration number HP01HG GP that we were going to book in at SAP13 were sent it back without being booked in.

[00:42:26]There was interference from members of the public as well as SAPS members.

[00:42:30]This amount to defeating the ends of justice as well as obstructing a police officer from performing his lawful duties. The dog unit was stopped from performing their duties. Lieutenant Colonel Maleleke, who had an inquiry file, was made to leave the scene.

[00:42:48]On the 11th, um maybe [clears throat] perhaps to to follow through with your evidence properly, um warrant officer, maybe uh let's clarify um your specific role when you arrived at the scene. I think you have explained in your paragraphs what transpired, but what we we we need to understand is that from the briefing, uh what uh what warrant officer Maleleke, Chief Mashaba, um who whom at least we we accept that he when he testified uh yesterday, he accepted that he was the first responder.

[00:43:29]Um then what happened? Did Did he hand over the scene to you? Who was in charge after that? Can you explain the process after that? When you found the scene and then after the briefing, who was in charge? And what was the plan having seen I mean found the scene the way it was set out?

[00:43:46]Yes, sure.

[00:43:48]So, um warrant officer Maleleke was the the scene was the scene manager before I I I I take it he was he was the scene manager before my arrival, and he handed over the scene to me.

[00:44:00]So, I was in charge of the scene.

[00:44:02]And hence I started giving instructions for the cordon off and the photographers to be called.

[00:44:11]And up until when I was about to give it to Lieutenant Colonel Maluleka.

[00:44:17]Where where I was arrested. So I couldn't even give it hand it over to to Lieutenant Colonel Maluleka. Okay, can you explain why was the scene handed over to you?

[00:44:30]And why do you also ultimately intend on handing it over to to Sergeant Maluleka?

[00:44:37]Okay.

[00:44:38]It was handed over to me as a better person equipped to investigate perhaps at that stage.

[00:44:47]Because I was the first person to arrive and investigate and I was the one who was called to the scene.

[00:44:53]So when when when I handed over to Lieutenant Colonel Maluleka, he's working at South Africa at SunEd. So it is it it's his mandate.

[00:45:04]So I was handing I was handing it over to a relevant person.

[00:45:09]And then what did you make of of the fact that the drugs were removed as you were informed and placed in a in a black bag key?

[00:45:21]In terms of scene management, you you do explain that you are aware of the national instructions dealing or relating to uh managing the scene.

[00:45:33]What did you make of that situation when you when you arrived?

[00:45:37]Yes, unfortunately the the drugs were already removed and on in the back of the back key. So I was not going to instruct them to place it back as to where otherwise we were going to further contaminate the scene. But as as as as he Mokhana considered the scene was already contaminated.

[00:45:59]Uh but upon my arrival I had to now make use of what is there and continue with the investigation of the of of of the scene from where it from where I found it.

[00:46:13]They basically managed the scene as as as it were. As it were, yes.

[00:46:18]>> Yes. Yeah. My my my concern um warrant officer um is is when you then attempted to remove um what they call the the seal. duplicate seal. And then that's when you are stopped by I think a socialite Ludick. Can can you explain that a bit more? What what was happening there?

[00:46:44]No, I was innocently taking the those seals to Remember I left the photographer with Major General Khan. So, I was taking those seals to the to her to to take photos of those of those seals. And obviously it she was supposed to take a further uh uh to to take them further to to to to to to forensic.

[00:47:12]I I think the obvious concern, as you will appreciate, would be uh you handling the the seal. the exhibit as it were and moving uh that exhibit as it were.

[00:47:25]No, it was already moved. From what I from the explanation I got, it was removed from it was found in the back of the trailer. So, it was removed and placed there.

[00:47:35]So, mine was to take it and give and hand it over to the to the photographer.

[00:47:40]Poison's case 252 of 10 2021.

[00:47:43]Since our arrest, it has always been our intention me, Warrant Officer Mohana, Chief Mashaba, and the informant that we should open a case against the members who arrested us.

[00:47:54]After consultation with our attorney, we opened a case against Major General Khan and the members of the DPCI.

[00:48:02]General Kadwa, Brigadier Khovela, Colonel Stein, Captain Sebola. We opened a case of defeating the ends of justice and theft of drugs.

[00:48:11]The case was investigated by IPID.

[00:48:14]According to crime scene management guidelines, the first member on the at the crime scene, regardless of rank of or position, is tasked with assuming control and ensuring that no unauthorized individuals including higher ranking or police officers unrelated to the incident, gain access to the crime scene. These individuals played a huge role in arresting us, releasing the suspect that we had placed under arrest and further tampered with exhibits which we believe were stolen.

[00:48:44]We relied on the investigation from IPID to further identify other perpetrators who might have also played a role in defeating the ends of justice and theft of drugs drugs.

[00:48:55]When Major General Khan first arrived at the scene, the scene was under control.

[00:49:00]There were officers who came to from crime crime intelligence such as Lieutenant Colonel Muloi who interacted with Warrant Officer Mohana who congratulated us on the good work we did. There were also other members who came to us like Lieutenant Colonel Lela.

[00:49:15]He had our our story and left. Upon the disposal of the Booysens case 987/98 of 7/2021, I realized that the exhibits were booked at Booysens SAPS on Friday the 9th of July 2021.

[00:49:29]On Monday the 12th of July 2021, those exhibits were booked out and transported to Tshwane SAPS College. Exhibits were only booked in at forensic on Monday, 19th July 2021. I then noticed that the forensic bag numbers of exhibits that were received at forensic were different from those that were initially booked at the Booysens SAPS.

[00:49:49]Furthermore, Warrant Officer Morris from DPCI who transported the exhibits to forensic.

[00:49:56]His statement stated that a few forensic bags were damaged during transportation, that new forensic bags were used.

[00:50:04]Uh warrant, um here in this paragraph, when you say um you you realize that the exhibit uh were booked at Booysens.

[00:50:15]And then you later on say you notice that the forensic bag numbers of exhibits that were received were by forensic were different. Um what what do you mean by that? How did you realize this? When did you notice this? Where did you get this this information?

[00:50:33]Okay, when when when we went for for for trial at the at the at the High Court, they disposed the copy of the docket to us. And copy of the docket included uh the SAP copy of the SAP 13 at the at the Booysens SAPS.

[00:50:53]So, from that from from from from that copy of the SAP 13 compared to the two and two statement from FSL, there were two like the there were bags that were were not reflecting that were there there at at at at Booysens but they're not reflecting at uh at forensic. Upon further investigations, it was found that one brick with a new forensic bag number was only received at forensic on the 10th of August 2021. This information was not part of the docket that was disclosed.

[00:51:24]The circumstances of this single brick are unknown.

[00:51:27]Who booked it? Where was the brick all this time? That information was developed was deliberately concealed from us.

[00:51:34]It is evident that the intentions of these officers at the scene were not to investigate the crime. The only way for them to take control of the crime scene was to arrest us. In that way, they could divert their attention to the arrested police officers and let the real perpetrators free.

[00:51:52]Now, I'm curious as to what will General Khan say. What will General Khadwa say? They are the only ones who the commissioners can put it to them. And then we start to get to the bottom of some of this because there are so many versions now flying around from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. It's getting difficult to get to the bottom of is Mahane right? Is is Pakula right?

[00:52:17]Is actually today's witness right? It's a lot. We need these people in the room.

[00:52:23]But as you begin to look at this story and all of the versions, you know, everyone is telling versions from their perspective.

[00:52:31]But we can rely on the commissioners, I think, to get to the bottom of the truth.

[00:52:37]I think as we can see some of the information that was even given to different investigating entities as they were doing this investigation was incomplete, was manipulated at some point. You know, it looked like General Khan was very interested in that Pakula never gets to work again or gets promotions, showing up every disciplinary process, etc. So, there's some rivalry here. Pakula says he knew that they were General Khan's drugs or he said to General Khan that they are his drugs. There's a lot happening here. Whose drugs were those?

[00:53:09]Whose drugs were those? And remember, this is the same year that the other drugs was stolen, right?

[00:53:17]Uh from from from Durban.

[00:53:19]So, now we've got the Port Shepstone issue. We've got the Ayrton issue. This is close to 2 tons of drugs at this point. And then remember this consignment itself ended up missing 136 or so kilograms. So, somebody was obviously recovering the loss that they had made cuz this was supposed to be a proper, you know, rip on rip off doesn't happen because one group of cops tries to steal the drugs, then another group of cops shows up and is now threatening to arrest other group of cops.

[00:53:47]Cops v cops. Cops v cops. Now, the question that has been lingering in my head is why did General Kahn and General Khathide go to such a scene? They're very senior.

[00:53:59]They're very senior.

[00:54:02]And they went that to me is something that I hope that the commissioners asked, "Well, listen, you know, this is ongoing. This is ongoing. So, we'll see who shows up tomorrow. Maybe they will give us the final clue in this particular equation."

[00:54:17]So, let's have a conversation. What do you think Audrey Dlwaba has been now officially announced as a judge judge president in Gauteng? We've seen Jossey Buthane. He's going back to court tomorrow.

[00:54:30]We'll see what they say there. We know that also um Ferial Mr. Shoulder Fikile Shoulder.

[00:54:38]In life, Melusi Fikile Shoulder. Fikile Shoulder.

[00:54:42]You put a shoulder where the shoulder is not supposed to be shouldered and now you are shouldering the weight of the PKTT. Yeah, we saw also, you know, the Fanyana Masemola being added to the Vusi Mathabela doc. A lot is happening. Let's talk in the comment section. I'll catch you guys in the next one.

[00:54:59]Um yeah, let's let's get into it. Who should lose? The comment section.

[00:55:04]Siyabonga Ngen.