3 Christians Came To Convert A Muslim… Then THIS Happened! | Hamza

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[00:00:00]Three, you're cool with Jesus claiming that he's not God.

[00:00:02]>> No, I I I I disagree I disagree with your takeaway, but I'm using a verse that shows why I disagree with it.

[00:00:09]So, I it says I and my father are one.

[00:00:12]>> Okay, so can we Yeah, sorry, go on. Go >> He again uses the talks about his father and he talks about himself.

[00:00:20]So, by your logic, it wouldn't follow that he's talking about these are two separate. They can't be the same.

[00:00:26]>> do you reconcile between the two then?

[00:00:28]You've brought one to what? Refute the other?

[00:00:30]>> Can I Let me let me just finish.

[00:00:32]>> Cool.

[00:00:32]>> So, he says I and my father are one.

[00:00:35]So, he is claiming and we can tell because what happens next, verse 31, the Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Why did they pick up stones to stone him? Because they knew what he was claiming which is that he is God.

[00:00:46]>> Oh, really?

[00:00:48]>> I believe so.

[00:00:48]>> Okay.

[00:00:49]>> Unless you disagree with >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, before we get to that >> I'm I'm going back to John's >> I just need you to now take that and show how it refutes what Jesus is saying in John chapter 17 verse 3. So, you're saying essentially, Jesus is claiming to be God, but he's not claiming to be God.

[00:01:05]So, can you reconcile the two?

[00:01:06]>> No, we've never said that John chapter 17 verse 3 means that Jesus is not claiming to be God. That's what you said.

[00:01:11]>> Right, so so let's reconcile it. I'm saying what I've said. You said what you said.

[00:01:15]>> How do we reconcile >> How do we reconcile the two?

[00:01:17]>> So, what I would the way I would reconcile it is that the takeaway that you've taken from John 17 that because it's and one and two is not correct.

[00:01:28]Means they can't be the same.

[00:01:30]>> Grammatically or be correct?

[00:01:31]>> Grammatically you mean?

[00:01:32]>> Really? So, tell me which grammarian has said that two phrasal nouns that are separated by a coordinating conjunction means that phrasal noun one is also phrasal noun two at the same time.

[00:01:43]>> I am the I and my father are one.

[00:01:45]>> Okay, so let's let's analyze this because you guys are hung up. You I don't think you guys can actually get around the grammar nor the proclamation.

[00:01:53]So, can >> stories of Jesus where he as my brother has said is ready to be stoned. People are angry.

[00:02:02]>> No problem. Can we Can we address this?

[00:02:03]>> And then let's let's >> I can address this.

[00:02:04]>> Let's come to the same John 17 which you're talking about.

[00:02:07]>> Yeah, but before we do that because otherwise we're going to end up jumping around here, there, and everywhere.

[00:02:10]>> It feels like sometimes you ask us to defend John 17 and then when we start going there you don't like that. So let's just do John 17.

[00:02:17]>> Okay, go for it. Are Are you going to go to verse five?

[00:02:19]>> Let's go to verse one and then let's read all the way.

[00:02:21]>> Go for it. I'll be careful.

[00:02:22]>> So Jesus had spoken these words.

[00:02:23]>> Just Just one second. Be careful.

[00:02:25]And And this is from >> I will tread very carefully.

[00:02:27]>> No, very carefully because John chapter 17 verse five is going to be an evidence against you, not for you.

[00:02:32]>> Understood.

[00:02:32]>> Go for it.

[00:02:33]>> When Jesus had spoken these words he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son that the son may glorify you. Since you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." And this is the verse which you started to reference.

[00:02:48]"And this is eternal life that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ."

[00:02:54]>> You have sent.

[00:02:55]>> "I glorified your name having accomplished the work you gave me to do.

[00:02:59]And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before you were in existence."

[00:03:04]>> Yeah.

[00:03:04]>> "I manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were and you gave them to me and they kept your word.

[00:03:10]>> Yeah.

[00:03:10]>> Now they know everything that you have given me is from you."

[00:03:14]And we could keep going but I would go I would just jump >> Just give me your take. Give me your um Go on.

[00:03:20]>> My take?

[00:03:21]>> Your take.

[00:03:22]>> I'm clear for what Jesus said.

[00:03:23]>> Yeah, what is he saying?

[00:03:23]>> He's speaking about his father.

[00:03:25]>> Yeah.

[00:03:25]>> And he's saying his father is God.

[00:03:27]>> And he's the only true God?

[00:03:29]>> He is the only true God. Correct.

[00:03:30]>> And so therefore Jesus is not God because he's the only true God. So is the son of God two Gods, right?

[00:03:36]>> Why is the son of God God?

[00:03:37]>> No.

[00:03:38]>> The son of God is not God.

[00:03:39]>> No.

[00:03:40]Unless you can bring me a verse where he says that the son of God is God.

[00:03:44]>> Okay, interesting. So you don't believe that the son of God is God.

[00:03:47]>> No.

[00:03:48]Let's Let's break it down.

[00:03:49]Just one second. One second.

[00:03:51]>> disagree that the son of God is God.

[00:03:53]true God is the father. Agreed?

[00:03:55]>> Correct.

[00:03:57]>> Can't get away from >> I disagree with the only true God being the father, but keep going.

[00:04:00]>> The father, the son, and the Holy Spirit.

[00:04:03]>> Yeah, fine. So, you're saying that Jesus is God because he claims to be God the son?

[00:04:10]>> Because he claims to be >> Right?

[00:04:11]>> Correct.

[00:04:12]>> So, where does he claim to be God the son?

[00:04:16]>> So, who is >> John chapter 10 verse 30?

[00:04:18]>> No, John 17, the one you read me.

[00:04:20]>> And what does he say?

[00:04:21]>> He says, "Father, the hour has come.

[00:04:22]Glorify your son that the son may glorify you." Who's he talking about?

[00:04:25]>> Right.

[00:04:26]Do you know that >> Sorry, who do you think he's talking about?

[00:04:28]>> I I think he's talking about himself, but he's not talking about in the way that you guys believe that he is.

[00:04:34]>> let's break it down to you.

[00:04:35]>> going to break it down. I'm going to break it down because I'm I'm answering you.

[00:04:37]>> He's talking about the son of God.

[00:04:38]>> I'm going to answer I'm going to answer you. I'm answering.

[00:04:40]>> He's talking about the son of God.

[00:04:41]>> He's asking me a question. I'm going to break it down. He asked me the question.

[00:04:44]I'm answering. I haven't finished my answer.

[00:04:46]>> Okay, fine.

[00:04:47]>> I haven't finished my answer, right?

[00:04:48]Good.

[00:04:49]>> Sorry, what's your name again?

[00:04:49]>> Jonathan. What's yours? Jonathan. John chapter 17 verse 5.

[00:04:54]Why is Jesus asking the father to glorify him when glory is supposed to be an essential attribute of God according to the Christian paradigm?

[00:05:04]Anyone who claims to want to be glorified before the worlds began, and the Greek word there is eon, which means that it's a it's an it's a it's a impersonal verb.

[00:05:19]And anyone who knows the English language knows that an impersonal verb is a past tense verb which is ongoing.

[00:05:26]So, what Jesus is claiming here is the following.

[00:05:29]I don't have the glory before the worlds began, hence why I'm asking the father to glorify me. My question to the Christian is, why would God want another God to glorify him when the attribute of glory is an essential attribute, meaning it can never be lost.

[00:05:48]You can't acquire glory because glory is an eternal attribute.

[00:05:53]>> Go for it.

[00:05:55]>> And I'm going to ask you, I suspect you're going to say no, but I'm going to ask you anyway.

[00:06:00]Are we Can we finish the point about the son of God and then we'll come to this point? Is that okay?

[00:06:03]>> What was this What was the point about the son of God?

[00:06:05]>> I believe the point we were discussing is that he's God.

[00:06:08]>> the son of God make you God?

[00:06:09]>> No.

[00:06:09]>> And you were saying the answer is no.

[00:06:10]>> No.

[00:06:11]>> And we were thinking otherwise.

[00:06:12]>> The reason why >> that is that is key to understanding the question which you have asked.

[00:06:16]>> From chapter 17?

[00:06:17]>> Correct.

[00:06:18]>> So, you're going to bring a verse from chapter 17 that where Jesus says >> You only want us to look at chapter 17.

[00:06:25]Is that what you're saying?

[00:06:25]>> No. I'm I've just asked you the question. You said correct. And the question was, from chapter 17? You said correct. And now you're asking me, "Oh, you only want me to" I'm not saying that. You've just said that. You've affirmed it. That you're only willing to go to chapter 17. So, unless you want to change the paradigm >> Hamza, you're very good at skipping between reflecting between scripture I had.

[00:06:47]>> I never said correct.

[00:06:48]>> The question is very simply whether being the son of God makes you God.

[00:06:53]>> Yes, do you have a Do you have an evidence for that?

[00:06:55]>> I have some evidence for that.

[00:06:57]Do you have some evidence against this?

[00:06:59]>> I'm not I'm not here to actually make a negative claim. The person who makes the positive claim is the one upon whom the onus is to bring the evidence.

[00:07:08]>> So, let's use then the passages Let's stay in the passages that we're speaking about.

[00:07:12]Does Jesus claim to be the son of God? I believe the answer is yes.

[00:07:15]>> Yeah, but he also claims to be glorious.

[00:07:18]>> You believe that Jesus the son of God is God.

[00:07:21]And then does Jesus >> Not in the sense that you do, that he's God.

[00:07:24]>> But do you agree that he claims to be the son of God?

[00:07:26]>> He said he claims to be the son of God, yeah.

[00:07:28]>> Okay, fine.

[00:07:29]Then the question is, does Jesus claim to be God?

[00:07:32]>> No.

[00:07:33]>> No.

[00:07:33]>> I haven't found any verse where he clearly claims to be God.

[00:07:35]>> claim that the Father is God?

[00:07:37]>> Yes. John chapter 17 verse three. The only true God.

[00:07:41]>> So, when Jesus says the Father and I are one, what does that mean?

[00:07:45]>> Uh can we go to the >> Sorry?

[00:07:46]>> Read verses 28, 29, 30. It'll give you the context. And then I'll refute you from the very same chapter where Jesus uses Psalms 82:6 to refute the claim of blasphemy that the Jews are making against him.

[00:08:00]In doing so, Jesus is refuting you, Jonathan, in the 21st century.

[00:08:05]>> Understood. Understood.

[00:08:06]>> So, verse 28.

[00:08:08]>> 28.

[00:08:11]>> John 10:28.

[00:08:13]I'll read from 25 where he starts.

[00:08:15]>> for it.

[00:08:15]>> I told you and you do not believe.

[00:08:19]The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice and I follow them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[00:08:31]>> Here comes the big one.

[00:08:32]>> who is greater than all, has given them to me.

[00:08:36]is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand.

[00:08:39]>> I am not the same.

[00:08:40]>> I and the Father are one.

[00:08:41]>> Stop there, Jonathan.

[00:08:42]>> I'll just read the next verse. The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

[00:08:44]>> Yeah, you've done that. We'll come to that.

[00:08:46]Listen to what Jesus is saying here.

[00:08:48]He's talking about giving salvation.

[00:08:51]>> Yes.

[00:08:52]>> And he's claiming that salvation isn't something that he gives.

[00:08:56]He acquires the means of of giving salvation through the one who is greater than all.

[00:09:03]>> I don't think that's how you're getting How are you getting that from there?

[00:09:06]>> My sheep hear my voice.

[00:09:08]>> Correct.

[00:09:09]>> Go on. Read it.

[00:09:09]>> And they follow me.

[00:09:10]>> Yeah, they follow me.

[00:09:11]>> I I give them eternal life >> and none can pluck them out of my hand.

[00:09:15]My Father, who is greater than all, gave them to me and none can pluck them out of my Father's hand. So, the Father is saying So, he's saying the Father gives >> There are sheep in his hands and the sheep have been placed there by the Father, but they are in his hands.

[00:09:33]>> Right.

[00:09:33]>> He is the >> And who's greater? The Father or the Son?

[00:09:37]>> He doesn't say.

[00:09:38]>> The father who is greater than all. They them to me and none can pluck them out of my father's hand.

[00:09:46]So, the oneness here, one second, one second.

[00:09:51]Yep, including Jesus.

[00:09:54]He doesn't say that.

[00:09:57]But, can we can we One second.

[00:10:00]Can we One second, one second.

[00:10:06]So, I've heard I've heard you I've heard your I've heard your argument. Can we at least agree I'm going to explain to you. Don't worry, it's so simple.

[00:10:14]Can we at least agree that the word the words there are ambiguous enough for us to also come away the with the interpretation, given that all is an exclusive statement, an all-encompassing statement, a universal statement, that it could mean that the father is greater than Jesus. It could I'm a So, >> Linguistically, could it mean that? Yes.

[00:10:38]>> Thank you very much.

[00:10:39]>> But, in context, we know that's not what Jesus is saying.

[00:10:42]>> So, in context, you're claiming Go on, Jonathan.

[00:10:46]>> Sorry, is it Hamza or Hamza?

[00:10:47]>> Hamza.

[00:10:47]>> Hamza, sorry.

[00:10:48]>> Hamza, Hamza. Actually, you're right, Hamza, yeah.

[00:10:51]>> [snorts] >> We know in linguistically, of course, you could one could read it like that.

[00:10:57]But, that interpretation would be wrong and we know that because the very next thing he says >> I and my father So, you say you mean to say that this isn't oneness of purpose, it's oneness of divinity, right?

[00:11:10]And the next verse says that the Jews picked up stones to stone him, right?

[00:11:13]Right.

[00:11:14]So, Jesus says to them, "Many good works have you seen from my father? For which of those For which of those good works do you stone me for?" Right?

[00:11:22]>> He does.

[00:11:23]>> And the Jews answer, "For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, that thou being a man makest thyself God. Now this is exactly the argument you Christians are making.

[00:11:36]>> Yes.

[00:11:36]>> And have been making for 2,000 years.

[00:11:38]Unfortunately, you Christians don't realize that this is an evidence against you. Because Jesus perfect opportunity for Jesus to say Hallelujah.

[00:11:47]The penny's dropped. Yep, finally. I am God. I'm the son of God. I'm the second person of the Trinity. And what?

[00:11:54]But Jesus doesn't say anything of the sort.

[00:11:56]Jesus proceeds to refute them. Watch what he says.

[00:12:00]He says Is it not And and I'm quoting from the No, no, you do it cuz I'm going to quote it from the cuz I've got to memorize from the KJV.

[00:12:08]He says Is it not written in your law?

[00:12:11]What's the law?

[00:12:13]>> The Torah.

[00:12:14]>> The Torah. Come on, you guys should know this. Is it not written in your law? I said and he's quoting here Psalms 82:6.

[00:12:24]I said ye are gods, children of the most high.

[00:12:28]And look what he says.

[00:12:29]If he called them gods unto whom the law of God came and the scripture cannot be broken, meaning you can't contradict your own scripture. That that you say of me that I blaspheme because I say I'm the son of God.

[00:12:44]Look what Jesus is saying here. He's saying Your own scriptures are calling you gods.

[00:12:50]Because if you read 82:6, it says that they are in the assembly of gods.

[00:12:56]The Jews are being called Elohim in the Hebrew.

[00:13:00]So Jesus is saying the following.

[00:13:02]>> Just because you're a linguist. That word God is the same one that we is being used elsewhere.

[00:13:07]>> Just just just one second cuz otherwise we're going to bounce around.

[00:13:10]>> That's a very >> No, no, no, no, I'm not going to let I'm not going to let you guys shift to another subject cuz that's completely different.

[00:13:15]>> same subject. When he said ye are gods, what is the word that he is used?

[00:13:19]>> He said Elohim.

[00:13:20]>> So Jesus is saying here that God is calling them gods.

[00:13:24]If you are going to find fault with me number one, for saying I and my father are one.

[00:13:30]And for saying I am the son of God. So, he's killing two birds with one stone here, people.

[00:13:35]He's saying I and my father are one, and the son of God does not mean that I'm God. And if you believe that it does, you guys are guilty also, because your scripture calls you gods, and your scripture cannot be broken.

[00:13:52]Yes or no?

[00:13:53]>> Uh no.

[00:13:54]>> I don't think that's the >> No, but the reason >> The reason >> The reason though >> So, you're saying Jesus isn't refuting them here?

[00:14:01]>> I'm saying that Jesus >> Why is he Why is he quoting 82:6? Why is he saying that you you are gods?

[00:14:06]Your scriptures are saying, "Ye are gods, children of the most high."

[00:14:10]Because they claimed Sorry, that Jesus is >> that passage, what is the word for gods there?

[00:14:16]>> Elohim.

[00:14:16]>> Is it the same one that he he uses for his father?

[00:14:19]>> Does it matter?

[00:14:20]>> Yes, it does.

[00:14:21]>> So, what tell me what all it is.

[00:14:22]>> Because uh if Jesus come to Jews, are you saying that Jesus is not blaspheming? That the Jews are wrong.

[00:14:28]>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying Jesus is saying that if you are going to hold me accountable for saying I and my father are one >> So, you don't think Jesus claimed to be >> and I am the son of God, Jesus is saying you have to hold yourselves accountable as well.

[00:14:42]>> So, does Jesus claim to be God?

[00:14:43]>> No.

[00:14:44]Obviously.

[00:14:45]>> Obviously no.

[00:14:46]>> No. How can he? He's saying that son of God son of God does not mean blasphemy.

[00:14:52]The Jews are saying that >> Okay.

[00:14:54]>> And Jesus says, "That thou sayest of me that I blasphemous because I say I'm the son of God." Jesus is quoting them. He's saying, "If you are going to stone me >> to be the father, would that be blasphemous?

[00:15:06]>> It would be blasphemous according to your doctrine, unless you're some >> you believe it would be blasphemous?

[00:15:10]>> No, I'm saying that it would be blasphemy for you because according to the Christians, the father is the father. According to the Athanasian Creed, the Constantinopolitan Nicene Creed and thank you very much.

[00:15:22]So, why are you trying to Why are you trying to catch me out?

[00:15:24]>> I'm not trying to catch you.

[00:15:25]>> Jonathan, Jonathan, you're sneaky son.

[00:15:27]>> I'm trying to verify that if claiming to be the father is blasphemous, then claiming to be >> Don't go to the verse where Jesus says, "Whoever seen me has seen the father."

[00:15:37]You know that >> That wasn't what I was getting >> Okay.

[00:15:40]Don't don't don't don't bring that verse up. It's a terrible verse, my dude. It's a If you claim that the father is the son in essence, you committed modalism.

[00:15:50]>> Yes, no, I agree with that.

[00:15:51]>> Okay, good. So, don't bring that verse because it's an evidence against you.

[00:15:55]>> Yeah, so I think God is relational.

[00:15:57]>> The The other thing I will say, and maybe we should end here, but I'll say why.

[00:16:04]He's saying that he and the father are one. Do you agree that means he's saying that You're saying it means they're just of one purpose.

[00:16:10]>> One purpose?

[00:16:11]>> Okay.

[00:16:11]>> And it's obvious from verses 28, 29 where he says >> So, that I and my father are one.

[00:16:16]>> Sorry?

[00:16:17]>> Me, Jonathan. If I am following what I believe to be God's purpose.

[00:16:22]>> The oneness doesn't Guys, oneness doesn't mean You see, Greek >> Oneness means purpose.

[00:16:25]>> Just one second. Jesus spoke in parables, right?

[00:16:27]>> Yes.

[00:16:28]>> If we're taking Jesus If we're taking Jesus when he says, "I and my father are one." as a literal divine oneness, >> Yes.

[00:16:35]>> you're going to HAVE A PROBLEM.

[00:16:36]>> [screaming] >> WHAT the Anyway, must be the cry the battle cry, right?

[00:16:44]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, he's coming in.

[00:16:45]>> He's coming in.

[00:16:46]>> He's coming in.

[00:16:46]>> He's ready.

[00:16:47]>> If you guys are going to say that this is oneness of divinity, Jesus uses the same oneness analogy in John uh in John chapter 17 verse 21 where he says, "Father, that they all may be one, as thou father art in me and I in thee, may they also be made one in us. I in thee and thou in me, so that the world may know that you have sent me."

[00:17:13]>> I agree.

[00:17:13]>> So, the oneness here, thank you. So, the oneness here parabolic in nature. It is not literal oneness because otherwise just one second. Otherwise, you have to now reconcile between Jesus using oneness in one verse and using oneness in another verse where the other one is speaking about the disciples being made one with him and the father. Are you going to be able to What's the symmetry breaker?

[00:17:49]Of course I can because eternal life was given to the to to the angel in Exodus that my name will be in the in the angel and the angel will give eternal life.

[00:18:00]That he will he will he will he will give salvation to the to the children to the people who come to him, sorry.

[00:18:06]So, just because someone is given a name, it doesn't mean that that person is God. The concept of a person acquiring the name was something known by the Jews.

[00:18:25]Well, like I said Well, I've given you the context. I've I've given you two contexts which you guys aren't willing to accept. There's no problem. You guys have your own mind.

[00:18:43]You do your own research. You come to your own conclusions.

[00:18:46]What my purpose here is to show the people at home that it's obvious when you open up that verse.

[00:18:54]20 verses 28, 29, 30, Jesus it can be interpreted. It can be plausibly interpreted that Jesus is talking about oneness of purpose. That I can give eternal life because the one who is greater than all gives me the authority to give eternal life. You guys just just one second. You guys, you guys um then go to the next verse, which is Jesus Christ being stoned. And I've shown you, I think, very, very plausibly that Jesus is refuting the claim of blasphemy.

[00:19:24]You guys are hung up on oneness. I've taken you to John chapter 17 verse 21, where he's talking about the disciples being made one with him. So, I think the plausibility the plausible argument here is as follows.

[00:19:36]You guys have nothing that except that you have to read into the verse.

[00:19:41]I've given you verses where Jesus cannot be God. John chapter 17 verse 3. You guys went to John chapter 17 verse 5.

[00:19:48]>> that passage and we said that Jesus That doesn't show that Jesus is claiming not to be God.

[00:19:53]>> Well, like I said, grammatically it has to be. And also contextually, because Jesus is claiming the only true God is the Father. That means that Jesus cannot be God.

[00:20:02]>> The assumption behind your claim >> Go for it. What's my assumption?

[00:20:05]>> only the Father is God.

[00:20:07]>> That is That is the Guys, that is that because I'm not I'm not It's not my assumption.

[00:20:14]>> It is the assumption.

[00:20:14]>> The English words are only true God.

[00:20:22]No, I'm coming I'm coming from a biblical position and linguistic position. Now, you guys can bring any linguist on earth that Sorry. That comes along and says Jesus Christ is actually claiming to be the only true God.

[00:20:34]>> I understand. I understand.

[00:20:36]>> And believe me, the people at home who are listening on this, they're going to think they're claiming to have learned the English language and they don't know this ABC my 13-year-old knows. That when you have two phrasal nouns separated by a coordinating conjunction, they can't be one in the same thing, my dear. And if you don't know that, I would invite you to further studies in English.

[00:20:56]>> Wow.

[00:20:56]>> I think you'll find that only the assumption If the assumption is not true, and let's do a thought experiment that it isn't.

[00:21:03]A thought experiment that it isn't. That the Father is that claiming to be not you don't have to be the father to be God if that is not true.

[00:21:13]Do you accept that you could read the text?

[00:21:16]showing that he is claiming to be >> Only if I turn up my brain. I'm not willing to do that, guys. I'm not willing to So we can just agree to disagree.

[00:21:22]>> So we agree that it relies on that assumption.

[00:21:24]>> Not the assumption on the clear on the clear reading of the text, the plain reading of the text.

[00:21:29]>> But the plain reading of the text is >> and Jesus Christ in balance and >> like you want to do the plain reading of the text in this occasion.

[00:21:36]But you don't want to do the plain reading of the text which is "My father and I are one."

[00:21:39]>> No, but the plain reading of the text has to be taken in context, right?

[00:21:43]>> Okay, so let's take let's take let's take the >> So we did take John chapter 17 in context, didn't we?

[00:21:48]>> And well, then we didn't cuz you said you said that the assumption is >> remember when I remember when I argued that John chapter 17 verse 5 isn't any evidence against you? A god who is asking another god to glorify him at any moment, even for a millisecond, is proof that that claim to godhead cannot be true.

[00:22:09]If Jesus Christ says therefore >> assumption which I'm I don't think I agree with. I will say I my sense and I apologize if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, is that you're not really debating to learn, you're debating to convince >> I I feel that I've done enough biblical studies that would there's probably double the time that you guys have studied. That's the issue here.

[00:22:32]>> That's fine. That's fine. And I think that is >> Probably true. I don't know I don't know whether I look younger or do I look young to you?

[00:22:38]>> You do look young. You're doing very well.

[00:22:39]>> Am I doing all right?

[00:22:41]>> You're doing very well.

[00:22:42]I suspect that as we come away from this conversation, you're not going to listen to what we have to say.

[00:22:48]And so if that's the case >> I would, I need to know I need to know salvation here as a Muslim we have to be certain Jesus is God because this is the be all and end all of it all for us. I need to give up my faith in order to become a Christian.

[00:23:04]And the very bedrock of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus, that Jesus died for our sins, not as a man, but as a god. Because only God can take upon himself the sins of the world.

[00:23:15]>> based on the text we've looked at today, that Jesus claims to be God?

[00:23:18]>> I need something clear like the Quran.

[00:23:20]In the Quran, Allah says, "Qul huwallahu ahad." Say, "He is Allah, the one and only. Allahus samad."

[00:23:25]He is >> So, the Quran is clear.

[00:23:27]>> tawhid So, I need something clear.

[00:23:29]>> You think that the Quran is clear and the Bible is not clear, essentially.

[00:23:32]>> No, I'm saying that when it comes to God's >> concept of God >> the concept of God, the proclamation of God, it should be as clear as daylight.

[00:23:39]No reading into the text, because my salvation just depends upon it. I don't want to be standing before the And what I don't want to be doing is pay placing the cart before the horse. So, cuz some Christians they come to me as, "Hamza, you need the Holy Spirit, mate." I said, "Well, I need to become a Christian, right?"

[00:23:54]"Yep." "Well, I'm not going to do that.

[00:23:56]Why would I become a Why would I It's like a Hindu or Sikh coming to me and saying, "Brother, you need to become a Sikh in order to understand God."

[00:24:05]>> You don't need to become a Christian.

[00:24:06]>> Exactly. So, that's my point, Jonathan.

[00:24:08]My point is I need clear evidence.

[00:24:10]>> I understand.

[00:24:10]>> And any Muslim would ask I think And that was That's a sensible question.

[00:24:12]>> And I think that's fair. I think that's fair. What I was saying, maybe we should wrap it then, would be um And I appreciate you've done a lot of study.

[00:24:21]In your study, when you look at it, I would ask yourself, does the standard that you hold Jesus to the same as the standard you hold your text?

[00:24:31]If Jesus came to the Jews and said, "I am God," straight up like that, their assumption, I think, would be the same as what you've taken, which is that "I am God" means "I am the Father."

[00:24:43]That is what they would hear.

[00:24:44]>> Okay.

[00:24:45]>> And that would be an incorrect takeaway, and they would misunderstand.

[00:24:49]>> Right.

[00:24:49]>> So, he doesn't say that because he knows the takeaway would be wrong.

[00:24:54]And I think you agree you agree with that.

[00:24:56]>> And then what?

[00:24:57]>> The question then is is he claiming it in his other statements that he is equal to God or you that he is God but not the Father.

[00:25:05]>> Yeah, I hear you Jonathan.

[00:25:07]>> And I think that is the assumption upon which all of our statements and all of your statements lie.

[00:25:13]>> No, no, I disagree with that.

[00:25:15]I disagree because you're saying it lies on on me. I'll say the following.

[00:25:19]Again, my problem is as follows.

[00:25:21]Let's just say for argument's sake you're correct, Jonathan. That there are verses where Jesus claims to be equal with the Father.

[00:25:28]My issue is that there are just as convincing verses where Jesus is attributing himself with properties that can that clearly denote him not being God. Like for instance >> God or not being the Father.

[00:25:44]>> No, not not being equal. Obviously if he's not God, he's not he's not equal to the Father, is he?

[00:25:49]>> But you said there are three verses where he is not God. I'm saying what you mean is there are verses where he clearly says he's not the Father.

[00:25:56]>> But that's by implication. If he's not God, he can't be equal to the Father because you guys >> think it's not by implication. I think it's the wrong way around. There are verses where he says he is not the Father and you are claiming that that means there are verses where he is not God.

[00:26:08]>> No, but being But being equal with the Father, I'm not saying that he is the Father. I'm saying that he's on a on par with Father. I e.

[00:26:15]the Father is God and and Jesus is God.

[00:26:16]That's your claim, right?

[00:26:17]>> Yes.

[00:26:18]>> Yes. So, I'm saying >> Are there verses which where he says that he is not God?

[00:26:22]>> Yeah, so what I'm saying is >> There are not.

[00:26:23]>> One second. One second.

[00:26:24]>> where he says he is not the Father.

[00:26:26]>> Yes, so I heard you. So, my my my response to that was that there are just as many verses in the Bible that I find very convincing where Jesus cannot be equal to the Father. Like for instance, Jesus being ignorant of the hour. Like for instance, Jesus >> sorry?

[00:26:41]>> Ignorant of the hour.

[00:26:43]Like for instance, Jesus growing in wisdom and stature. Jesus being gloryless. Jesus saying that I cannot of my own self, John chapter 5 verse 30, I cannot of my own self do nothing. I hear as I judge and my judgment is just for I seek not my own will but the will of the one that sent me."

[00:26:58]>> Yes.

[00:26:58]>> When I look at these properties that Jesus is affirming for himself, the only takeaway I can come away with is that he's he cannot be God. God is all knowledgeable for eternity. Any entity that claims he is God but does not have knowledge of all things cannot be God. You can't have a square circle, people. You can't have a married bachelor.

[00:27:16]Either God Jesus is God for eternity and so therefore has knowledge of all things or he's not.

[00:27:22]As soon as he says in Mark 13:32 that I do not that of that hour and of that day knoweth no man, no, not the angel which are in heaven, neither the son, but the father only.

[00:27:33]Paters mono monos is the Greek in in Matthew 24:36.

[00:27:38]>> Yeah, yeah, but >> I would say to you guys that Jesus cannot be God.

[00:27:41]>> be God because he doesn't know the Father.

[00:27:42]>> Yes. Now, you going to re-post your your re-post is going to be, "Well, Jesus in his human nature did not know the hour, but in his divine nature he did." My response is going to be, "Did Jesus have ready access to his to this knowledge in his divine nature when he said, 'I don't know the hour?'" You guys are going to say, "Yes." I'm going to respond and say, "Then he must have either been delusional or he was lying."

[00:28:06]>> I'm not sure how I I don't know your conclusion.

[00:28:09]>> Let me let me let me show you.

[00:28:10]>> I I follow I follow your I follow your arguments. I I disagree with the conclusion.

[00:28:14]>> And and the context as well, people. The context Mark 13:32, 24:36. Jesus is clear in this context as well that this is not any type of declarative knowledge.

[00:28:25]Oiden can mean declarative knowledge, but here the context is Jesus is saying he does not have conceptual knowledge of the hour. Only the Father has it. That tells me that tells me as a Muslim and anyone else that looks at the plain reading of the verse, this can't be God.

[00:28:39]>> So, >> The man's ignorant.

[00:28:40]>> What you're saying is that there's a logical confusion essentially between God and God and all knowing.

[00:28:45]Contradiction. He's either God and all knowing but here he's saying >> Exactly.

[00:28:50]>> Is God all Is Allah all powerful?

[00:28:51]>> Yes.

[00:28:53]>> So Allah has the power He knows everything.

[00:28:55]>> Yes.

[00:28:56]>> Can Allah forget?

[00:28:57]>> No.

[00:28:58]>> But he's all powerful.

[00:28:59]>> Yes.

[00:29:00]>> Is that a logical contradiction?

[00:29:01]>> No.

[00:29:02]>> Why?

[00:29:03]>> Because he has essential attributes.

[00:29:05]>> So he can't forget.

[00:29:06]>> Because he's all powerful and all knowledgeable. Remember his power is not his knowledge.

[00:29:10]>> But he's unable to forget.

[00:29:12]>> Because he's all knowledgeable.

[00:29:13]>> He He does not have the power to forget.

[00:29:15]>> He can't because he's all knowledgeable.

[00:29:17]>> Okay. So you see how this is a contradiction?

[00:29:20]>> No. No, it's not a contradiction, people. You don't know what a contradiction is then.

[00:29:24]All powerful? Let's go through what a contradiction is, a logical contradiction.

[00:29:28]>> I can tell you contra means against and diction is from the Latin for speech. So the two things that are being said are against each other.

[00:29:33]>> No, but I'm going to I'm going to break >> Is that okay?

[00:29:35]>> No, I'm going to break it down even further. I'm going to break it down symbolically.

[00:29:39]A proposition, i.e. a truth claim, A.

[00:29:43]And not A is false. That is your classic Aristotelian definition of the contradiction. A and not A. It means if you affirm one truth claim >> Yeah.

[00:29:55]>> Example, God is all knowledgeable.

[00:29:57]>> Yeah.

[00:29:58]>> The opposite cannot be true.

[00:30:01]>> Yeah.

[00:30:02]>> That God is not all knowledgeable. When as soon as you bring in a second truth claim, God is all powerful it's no longer it no it no longer falls in the remit of the law of non-contradiction. Because you've brought in two truth claims. And the law of non-contradiction is A and not A, not A and not B.

[00:30:20]>> Okay.

[00:30:20]>> Does that make sense?

[00:30:21]>> I understand. I think that's a nonsense argument but I do understand. So when Jesus says he doesn't know the hour and the day is that a contradiction?

[00:30:30]How is that different to the two truth claims that you example again?

[00:30:34]>> God is all knowledgeable.

[00:30:35]>> Correct.

[00:30:36]>> Jesus is God.

[00:30:37]>> Uh-huh.

[00:30:37]>> Right? Jesus is Jesus says that he's not all knowledgeable.

[00:30:40]>> Uh-huh.

[00:30:40]>> Contradiction.

[00:30:41]>> Does Jesus have the power to not know?

[00:30:45]>> If he's >> Very quickly. Very quickly.

[00:30:48]>> But answer the question.

[00:30:49]>> Is it possible for God >> Why don't you answer?

[00:30:52]>> I'm going to answer it. But I'm not going to >> Just answer yes or no.

[00:30:54]>> No, it's not yes or no. It's not a It's not a yes or no because it's a loaded question.

[00:30:58]I'll tell you why it's a loaded question. I'll tell you why it's a loaded question.

[00:31:01]>> Yeah.

[00:31:02]>> Because you're presupposing that power or being all powerful can make the impossible possible.

[00:31:09]>> Yes.

[00:31:10]>> That's the assumption, right? Now you have to justify that. Can you bring an argument to show Some argument to show >> What does powerful mean to you?

[00:31:18]>> That powerful can make the impossible possible.

[00:31:22]>> What do you believe >> no. Please, sir, sir.

[00:31:25]The claim The onus is upon the claimant.

[00:31:27]>> Do you believe that God can But you >> not Is the onus not upon you to now >> To prove that powerful means being able to make the possible impossible.

[00:31:35]>> Impossible or the impossible possible.

[00:31:37]>> is you who is saying that powerful does not >> No, because I've already given you a textbook definition. Unless you're saying my definition is false, you're bringing in >> is false.

[00:31:46]>> You're bringing in Guys, you're bringing in a second truth claim that God is all powerful. I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the first truth claim, which is God is all knowledgeable.

[00:31:59]>> That's fine.

[00:31:59]>> Now you have to show here how God's power can make God who's all knowledgeable forever and ever and ever not all knowledgeable forever and ever and ever.

[00:32:08]>> I think we're We're in semantics. The The The point I was making >> Semantics. This is semantics. This is debating, guys. Come on.

[00:32:13]>> The point I was making is that there are things which our human mind to us are contradictions which we are unable to solve.

[00:32:21]>> Mystery. Don't go back to mystery now.

[00:32:22]Come on.

[00:32:24]>> You are much more of a biblical scholar probably than I have studied. Now I can >> But you don't need to be Jonathan, you don't need to be a biblical scholar to understand basics of logic.

[00:32:32]>> But as you've said, this is not a basic of logic cuz I threw one back to you and it was unclear.

[00:32:39]Uh Jesus not knowing the hour and the day >> That's a tricky one. That's a That's an underhanded one right there.

[00:32:44]I'll tell you why it's underhanded. I've just given you the answer. I've said being all-powerful cannot make someone who's all-knowledgeable forever and ever and ever not all-knowledgeable forever and ever and ever.

[00:32:53]>> Maybe your viewers will like that line.

[00:32:55]I suspect they might not.

[00:32:56]Uh anyway >> Yeah, go on.

[00:32:58]>> As I said before, I think we're not And if the two of us are not willing to learn from each other, I don't think it's a productive conversation.

[00:33:06]>> If you were to die tomorrow, Jonathan, >> Yes.

[00:33:08]>> could you honestly say that you could stand before your God and if he was to ask you point-blank, "Where did Jesus say I'm God?"

[00:33:16]And your salvation lay your two routes lay in hellfire one side and paradise on the other, do you really honestly think that if you were to die tomorrow, you have evidence in your Bible to show the God of all things >> And I believe that that is a difficult thing to say, but I do.

[00:33:35]The Bible says that the God of this world has put a veil over people's eyes.

[00:33:40]And I would ask you the same thing that if you were to die tomorrow, do you know for sure where you would go?

[00:33:47]>> Yes.

[00:33:48]Because because the Prophet Muhammad and Allah he guaranteed the believers paradise.

[00:33:54]He He guaranteed the believers paradise.

[00:33:56]>> We shall see.

[00:33:57]>> I would my my and I will pray for you as well, Hamza, and sorry, I didn't catch your name and and your name.

[00:34:02]>> No problem.

[00:34:03]>> So, I'll be praying for you both.