This podcast episode explores how Australia's immigration policies, particularly high immigration levels, are creating significant social and economic challenges including housing affordability, infrastructure strain, and cultural integration issues. The discussion examines how these challenges are fueling political polarization and the rise of One Nation, while also addressing the broader implications of military accountability, war crime allegations, and the impact of public scrutiny on veterans and military personnel. The conversation highlights the tension between maintaining national security and fostering an inclusive society, suggesting that effective governance requires balancing economic growth with social cohesion and addressing the concerns of citizens who feel their voices are not being heard in political discourse.
#103 - Former SAS Captain Mark Wales - Immigration, War & Australia’s Future本站添加:
[music] Hi guys, welcome back to Two Worlds Clyde podcast. On today's episode, we have former SAS captain Mark Wales. I hope you guys enjoy. And mate, we're away. No debating today. Uh >> just uh I'm looking forward to a smooth conversation unlike the last one. with m Mark Wales. Welcome to Squad Podcast.
How are you?
>> Yeah, man. Good. Thanks for having us.
>> No, no dramas. Came in from uh Melbourne.
>> Melbourne.
>> Yeah. A little bit more freezing than uh Adelaide.
>> No, it's a bit erratic there most of the year.
>> Yeah.
>> But then I'm Perth boy as well and I've seen Perth's been slammed. So, looks like everyone's getting a bit of winter.
>> Is that where you grew up? Perth.
>> Perth mostly and and regional kind of WA like born up north in Newman and lived in Geraldton for a bit and then Perth.
So, >> is that where you wanted to go? Perth is in west as in >> mate. It helps. I I wanted to do it anyway, but just the fact that it was in Perth was gold and it's such the base actual Swanborn base is in a it's the best bit of real estate in WA pretty much. [clears throat] So, it was it was a good bonus to be back home.
>> I was recently in Perth for a podcast called The Hard Yards. They're good people. Those those guys that run that.
And uh I went over there for a weekend and I didn't realize how beautiful Perth was.
>> No matter.
>> I didn't realize.
>> It's probably the best kept secret around.
But it's just it's hard to get there pretty much anywhere. It's the most city around.
>> Yeah. Someone said to me a long time ago that most people from Perth has been to part Balley over over Sydney or Melbourne.
>> What's that?
>> They've all been to like if you talk to people from Perth, they're like they've all been to Bali.
>> Yeah.
>> And or Thailand, but have never been to Sydney or or Melbourne, which is too far.
>> And Sydney, Melbourne is just called over East. Like it's all just lumped into the one.
>> Oh, you're from Over East. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a funny place, but they're and totally different culturally, just a they're all, you know, >> what what do you mean >> culturally? Well, they're all very business focused, entrepreneurial, not a lot of social issues that you'll see canvased in the other major major cities.
>> Um so yeah, it's pretty easy living.
>> And the mining boom, the mining boom built that town, >> mining um for sure. And I did a bit of work in I was embedded in one of the top miners for about 6 months when I was with a consulting firm. So kind of saw some of that firsthand. It was pretty interesting stuff.
>> Yeah. It's like the major one of the major um buildings in Perth. You look across and it's got the BHB on the side of it.
>> You're like, I know I know what town this is.
>> Yeah. Spend a bit of time in that one.
>> But it's be beautiful. That nice big lake that comes through the middle. Um, and it just like in the afternoon the sun hits and then you get that pick up off the water and I was over the other side on the southern side of the city across the lake.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Look looking across at night and I'm like this magic >> beautiful.
>> Did you get um Yeah, that's the beach when you were there.
>> Not really. We're only there for 2 days. Um but we did get up where was it? We got up to a bit north of the city and they had this like it was almost like a bit out of, you know, [snorts] European Greece and they had this beach and it was beautiful and >> Oh, yeah. Not um on the coast, was it?
>> Yeah. It wasn't like Hillary's or anything like that.
>> Maybe. [clears throat] >> Yeah, >> maybe. But it was beautiful. But um mate, so you started off in 1 hour, then you went to SAS and you spent a whole bunch of time there and now you're out doing what are you doing now?
>> I do corporate speaking mostly. I do leadership and resilience training for companies.
>> Y >> and just use time in the SAS and then time in McKenzie and just talk about what out of those two worlds kind of works best. [clears throat] >> I don't know how much you can comment on it, but we'll see. We'll see how we go, man. What's your thoughts across, you know, all of this stuff with Ben and and these war crime stuff?
>> Yeah, so I talked I've talked about publicly I think about two or three times. The first time it came out I and it was this was very early on. I talked about the less about his case, more about the broader conditions of the war and just complained that it was very a drift kind of strategically. So I kind of didn't tackle it directly and then later more recently after his arrest I spoke to um Mark Burus and Carl Stephanovic.
So the case itself will be sorted out by the feds however however [clears throat] however that gets run.
I've noticed people have really really entrenched viewpoints on this. It it kind of doesn't people have picked their side and it kind of doesn't matter what you say about it. Um, I've got a lot of mates, quite a few that ended up being witnesses in the first >> case [clears throat] in the second.
Yeah.
>> They were pulled Well, it's hard cuz they was, and I think a lot of people don't know this, they were subpoenaed to attend and then >> Yeah, they didn't just go in willingly, did they? They >> didn't go in willingly.
>> And then once they're on the stand, they had to tell the truth.
>> They're under oath. So that's So they've kind of lost both ways. like I didn't want to go into court and talk about some of the worst moments of my life and then be, you know, be accused of being against a former mate. It kind of wasn't like that. So, in some cases, yes, but in other cases, no. So, those guys have been they've coped a um a rough deal. I had one mate that was in the seat for I think about 5 days >> getting grilled. So, he's it's been hard and I I talk about it really wearily because of I value kind of the mat with those guys.
above all else. But um no, it's unprecedented. It's never happened. I think they'll his side will obviously try to not have it heard at all. They'll get a I think it's called a state of prosecution.
>> Well, yeah. You can't really get a fair trial if most of the country has heard about it from someone like myself or the other side of >> Yeah.
>> Nick McKenzie from what is it 60 Minutes or whatever he runs.
>> Yeah, that'll be the that'll be their argument. And then I think I think that's only happened once though in the history of Australia. But again, this is another case that's only happened once in the history of Australia. They tried to do it with the uh teachers pet.
I don't know if you were tracking that one.
>> That was pretty interesting. They done a podcast on a the disappearance of a mother uh on the northern beaches of Sydney in the I think it was the ' 80s or early 90s.
And the podcaster had gathered all this evidence as part of his investigation.
They'd run a podcast, became internationally famous, and then when the prosecution came and they arrested the guy for murder or the disappearance of his wife, they made that argument.
They're like, "It's too it's been too public. Like, we want to get it stayed."
>> But that was very different, dude. It wasn't wasn't anywhere near as intensely covered as as that one is.
>> And this is a bit of a political war piece as well. You know, >> people are using it to gain to to jockey for advantage. Definitely.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean like um I've had discussions with mates about this. It's like it's being used unfairly or fairly, however you see it, but it's being used to jockey and get a whole bunch of patriotic Australians on board to, you know, really save save Australia. And I think um >> uh one thing this has done is it has woken a lot of people up in regards to patriotic Australians that were maybe just dormant before. They were a bit quiet. They didn't really say too much and now this has happened and they're like that's it.
>> I don't we can't have this government anymore. I think that's what it's done as well.
>> So many people um that pull me up in the street >> ever since I started talking about it.
That's one of the main topics. They're like I literally have only started >> really waking up to what happened after I've seen what's going on with Ben.
>> Right.
>> And that's been one of the um waking up points. There hasn't been too much said politically like in regards to I mean Pauline Hans >> it's kind of smart because they know that Yeah.
>> Well trial is going to happen.
>> Yeah. That's it. I mean >> and the Liberals won't say too much about it. Labour hasn't said too much about it. The Greens have said a fair bit about it um in regards to they think that Ben should be prosecuted. But that's just that side of politics, right? They need to go against that.
It's like >> so it's really interesting. very very interesting to see the culture shift around that exact moment I think.
>> Yeah. And I think I picked this up just um just doing a bit of uh YouTubing reaches a broad audience, mostly [clears throat] Australians. And you you forget how across the topics a lot of people are that are kind of discounted, I think, by the learned class or the, you know, people that are in either highly educated, top paying jobs, whatever it is. They think they know best, but then you you present topics to people and they're far more educated and opinionated on these things. And I think people knew even I knew. So I I think that's where the current government's run into trouble because they've >> they've they've been misleading with what they've done with the budget and they're now >> uh people are wise to it and hence the >> the headlines, you know, over the last day or two. what actually came out a couple of days ago. There was an article written about it and I didn't know this um during Oliver Schulz's trial or during his arrest. The Anthony Abanzi government actually lowered the threshold for what is a war crime.
>> I did see that. I didn't fully understand >> what that done. I think the argument from the DG is they bought it more in line with international standards or something, [clears throat] >> but the timing of it, you know what I mean? Yeah.
>> Yeah. and they seem to do a lot of this stuff. But man, have you been across the budget much?
>> A little bit. Yeah, I've been reading a bit about it. Yeah, for sure. It's an interesting one.
>> Yeah. I mean, just some of the stuff that I've sort of seen from it, but they keep telling us and gaslighting us is for young Australians. You know, we have to sacrifice for the young generation of Australians so they can get into a house. And I'm like, well, maybe we should just shut the gate on immigration. You'll see the housing market drop and then everyone will be able to get into the housing market from there. They won't do that because a lot of them have millions of dollars in their real estate portfolios and big business and foreign lobbying sits behind these government members who actually want high levels of immigration because more people in the system means a bit more dollars circulating for them to be able to profit off. But it's um I mean we I woke up to the polls this morning that One Nation is well well ahead and it's because of stuff like this budget. What's your sort of views on on the budget? And >> yeah, it's the I I read those headlines this morning and they cuz the guy that runs Redbridge, he was comedy on it, which is a polling firm that worked with the Finn Review to generate this poll.
And whenever I've heard them talk in the past about what people are saying, they have a really good finger on the pulse because they're sitting in focus groups and they're hearing about what the average person says about the [clears throat] leading class or the the um political parties that are out there.
and they were saying that a lot of disaffected Labour voters have kind of leapfrogged past the Liberals and have bolted onto kind of one one nation and that's where the increase in their primary votes come from.
>> Um and the thing they keep hearing is like it's not working. I want to burn the whole thing down.
>> It's not working. I want to burn they're not no one's listening to us. Both parties aren't we're going to it's so it looks like a a protest of sorts. Um, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see where it goes because it's for the first time that's it's steered away from two major parties.
>> The last time this happened was [clears throat] post World War II, >> right?
>> Never happened before.
>> Really?
>> So, it means uh historically we've never been this pissed off.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It looks like it looks that way.
>> Yeah. And I think the I mean it's if you were kind of watching from late last year, they've just taken these step up this frequent kind of step changes in popularity starting with Bondi because of how consistent they've been around the immigration um topic and then gradually bit by bit they've increased then this budget has come along and then people have [clears throat] so they're starting to get a lot of momentum. I don't know what their >> what their plan will be. I know I heard Barnaby Choice talk about Western Sydney. Um I think there's parts of the outer parts of the major suburbs is where they're going to try and secure seats. If I was in their position, that's kind of >> that's what I guess they're going to do.
>> Yeah, they're probably going to wipe out the NATS.
So we we might see some NATS defer to them so they keep their seat before the election.
>> They're potentially going to wipe out some Liberals in rural areas.
>> Yep. Um, so we'll see some people potentially deflect to them before the election.
>> Is this what you've heard?
>> It's just what I think.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Because right now they say the Liberal vote is something like 23% and the One Nation vote is something like 29%. But when it all comes down to it, all right, Labour and Greens own the inner city >> and they will have a stronghold in those positions historically, right? Um and your rural outer city fringe places they are normally competed by by liberal or normally dominated by liberal >> right but in the far election we just showed this is this isn't the case one nation took that pretty comfortably but >> one nation are realistically only taking away votes from the Liberal party because to win them inner city seats is going to be very very hard.
>> Yeah. So, I mean, One Nation were up in the polling, but it doesn't mean they will win the election >> because they're stealing >> different voting. Yeah.
>> Because they're stealing a lot of obviously this goes down to um areas.
You got to win that area to win that seat. But it's just going to be um I don't think they're there yet. And they're saying that if they do combine the votes of even Liberal or One Nation, they still won't get a huge amount because they're just stealing from each other. They're competing for the same seats.
>> Yeah. So >> yeah, and and Labour's not silly either.
They they look at the election date and reverse engineer >> Oh yeah.
>> major events. So they and [clears throat] I think their bet will be that you know we can take this gamble now. It's two years to the election.
>> It'll be forgotten about by then.
>> It's just uh the question is how many world ending events will happen between now and then.
>> Yeah. Could get derailed >> for us to continuously push further.
Right. But the whole the the the budget's been an interesting one because if you look at most some of the more pragmatic kind of um labor political figures have always been progrowth >> keing you know a few other ones like that they were very much recognized that the whole engine to living standards is you have to have thriving business community that grows and that's that's kind of how you >> but it's kind of anathema to some of the philosophies around equality. quality and you know maintaining you know fairness for everyone like it's it doesn't it runs counter to that the problem [clears throat] is if you don't have that growth engine no one no one goes forward >> so I think that's where this budget's been problematic they punished >> either higher income earners or businesses or investments capital in general >> yeah that's >> in favor of in favor of labor it is a mistake I think because then you'll you'll find the across the board will our economy will contract.
>> Well, I just don't I didn't even get that. Um I mean the negative gearing whatever, right? You put that aside, but even the capital gains tax that they the incentive tax that they took away, it's like okay, maybe they could make an argument for doing it on the real estate market, but there's no argument for shares, stocks, >> gold, Bitcoin. There is no argument for that because >> it's a bit more punitive, isn't it? I mean, if I if if I'm holding gold or crypto, like, you want to be selling that thing before this law comes in so you don't have to give over half of your investment to them. And it's just I was talking to a friend about this the other day. He's he's built this business over 20 years and he's looking at exiting >> and you know, they're not calculating the >> all the tax that he has paid to his 13 employees. He hasn't they're not calculating the first five years where he didn't take any money.
>> Yeah. They're not calculating um the blood, sweat, and tears, the relationship breakdowns, the hard work, the risks he had to take.
>> Y >> and now when he sells that thing, he's going to be giving him 60% higher.
>> Yeah.
>> And he can't have that 50% t capital gains incentive tax on it.
>> Yeah.
>> It's like, >> how are you taking that away? And it's clearly because they are the government overspending and they can't manage a budget.
>> Yeah. And they all they're going to do is uh put a dampener on any sort of risk takingaking even with like the ne negative gearing stuff. So you could take a bet on property and even if you ran a loss at least you'd have negative gearing. So you're a bit more willing to take that risk but that's going to evaporate >> and same with a lot of businesses like your mate like why would you why would you not take your business to another country that has much lower tax rate so they do reward that. I think a lot of people are going to be setting up in New Zealand.
>> Could be. They're already ask they're already pitching for it. So, >> and what does that do? That just moves more millionaires overseas.
>> Yeah. Constructive business for sure.
>> Yeah. Which is um I don't know. I just think this uh this budget is low-key communism. They've obviously got hundreds of millions of dollars to bringing in more immigrants. They've got uh hundreds of millions of dollars going to silencing our speech. But then on top of that they want that single family home home you know individual or people in one house owning one thing working one job all on the same type of level.
It's all linked to like the if you don't have this is where they've gone wrong. If you don't have good policy making the economic growth will slow down. Therefore, they, you know, higher immigration levels to try and artificially boost it and then it just creates problems later on if you don't have the housing to do it if you don't have the infrastructure to do it.
>> Well, yeah. I mean, the housing infrastructure debate, that was probably this time last year. Now, it's like, hey, you're just flooding in too many people and Australians are becoming visitors in their own country debate. I mean, that's the one I've been having lately and really seems to be getting me in a whole bunch of trouble.
>> [laughter] >> mate. But it it it seems like everyone out there agrees with me.
>> You get a lot of lot of outrage. I'm I'm sure >> everyone out there agrees with me. The amount of messages I've had over the past >> two to three weeks since I've started talking up against this and uh the amount of emails I' had, the amount of famous people message me.
>> It's all right.
>> Saying, "I love what you're doing. Can't follow you, but love what you're doing."
over the past two weeks. It's like maybe I am just saying a lot of things that uh a lot of people were they either can't say or um they're just not ready to say.
Maybe we're in that point. But >> yeah, >> anyway, we'll keep doing what I'm doing.
>> Well, I think that's where you're seeing if if people aren't speaking about it, that's where they're putting a protest vote potentially in another direction.
That's where they [clears throat] can that's where they can do it.
I don't really want to ask you who you would vote for, but you know, is there ever a day in day in a life where you would potentially vote One Nation?
>> Well, I m I did I did pre-selection for the Liberal Party. This is a few years back now, >> become a politician >> to become to run in a seat in South Perth.
>> And so I did pre-selection there, which is a the way the Liberal Party runs, it's pretty fair actually. There's like 250 delegates in that mug, mate. Chug a mug.
>> Sorry, bro.
>> Didn't have the right spot, did I?
>> Yeah. Um, >> have a drink out of it.
>> Yeah, there's like 250 delegates and you basically present your case. There'll be five or six other people running to be the pre-selected candidate for the seat.
So, I did that which took about 6 weeks and then why was I able to go forward?
But yeah, I was and I had worked with Andrew Hasty who was in Canning and there was another senator in that area.
They were like, "Okay, this is our plan.
We lost the seats. First time in 40 years we lost it. We're going to try to take it back from the Labour Party." So, it was it was interesting hearing about it cuz all these policy conversations were happening, >> including CGT was a part of it, but that people were like, >> "We we know it's affecting housing prices. We know it's in some cases inflating to the point where young people can't get a home, but I don't think they're in a position to to be able to tackle anything at that point."
>> So, that's where I started. I don't I I don't I don't think we're going in the right direction now. I know twothirds of Australians are are thinking the same way or 61% or something. Uh so mate, I don't know which way I'd go at this point, but it wouldn't be with the current government. [clears throat] >> Yeah. And I always like to think to myself as well, deep down, is One Nation the answer or are they just a push in the right direction? I mean, for me personally, right, there's some stuff that I've been banging on now for a long time with shutting the gate in immigration, deporting some illegals and the people that have come here um legally and committed crimes and then a reimigration program of potentially anyone that came in under the Anthony Abenezy era that hasn't assimilated, right? Because they they Tony Burke has told them they don't need to assimilate.
>> So saying [clears throat] to these people, you either assimilate or you get out and you've got 3 years to get out sort of thing. How would you do I mean how would you do it though? How would you know if someone has versus someone hasn't?
>> Um I mean I'm sure there's could be certain cultural tests that we could make up. There could be um something there could be something. I mean I can tell you right now that a whole bunch of people piling into one home that's not assimilating into Australian culture.
>> Uh Islamic extremists that's not assimilating to Australian culture.
Postcode machete wars with kids running around with um machetes that's not assimilating to our culture. So there could be a few people you could obviously get out and by a few I mean a lot. Um but my question is with you know the Pauline Hansen One Nation government they've never really come out and said that. I think that's what we need to work towards but obviously they need to be mainstream. So they need to try and appeal to everyone now cuz they need that 40 40% of the vote or something.
So, um, they might surprise us and sort of go down that path, but maybe they're just a step in the right direction of what we truly need in the 2030s. But, >> um, I mean, again, that's heavily up for debate. There's a lot of that going on at the moment of, um, >> what we truly need as a as an Australian society to protect our people, history, and culture. But >> yeah, >> again, then you got to balance that in with this forever modern Australia that they keep telling us are jamming down our throat.
>> Yeah. But at the same time now this modern Australia these big parties they have to uh pander to certain communities to get their vote because that's a big percentage of it.
>> So >> it's unusual because the and we had this discussion too because there was a there was an Indian segment in my electorate and I spent a fair bit of time with them. They're actually quite conservative normally and I don't know if they fully understand that maybe the history of the differences between the parties because they do present fairly similarly.
>> But um another angle I mean immigration is one angle. You could look at another one though which is if you did have the growth that you needed then you could economically you could absorb more people. But um as it stands now because there's not economic growth, there's not productivity growth.
>> When you bring more people in, it's just >> and I've seen this in the outer sub.
I've lived in both outer suburbs of of [snorts] Melbourne and Sydney. I was telling about this before, you do notice there's like more traffic, less uh access to healthcare. There's all these [clears throat] things come. It wouldn't matter what nationality or segment they're from, there's just more people.
So if we're not equipped to deal with the increases, your standard of living is going to drop dramatically and that's when people get really pissed off >> and that's where we're importing people to get our GDP per capita up or sorry GDP for the government up but per capita for you and I we're actually getting poorer.
>> Yeah. It's happening across the west like they've had low productivity for ages and they don't they kind of know why but it's been >> common to a lot of western >> countries and they're trying to like Yeah. They don't not quite know how to bring it back up.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you can rip away a lot of the red tape and and um you know, really dive into our natural resource sector, but >> mate, there should be no barriers to starting a business, growing a business.
The the taxation should be pretty low.
Ours is high by international standards.
>> Highest in the world. I think we have the most we have the most taxes in the world.
>> It's pretty pretty bloody high. And I think it's good because we do have a really good safety net and like in in a way that even in the US it would be considered socialist almost the universal healthcare and uh super and things like that. But they are I mean it is good. It's good when you when you see it being used. We've got a mate who has a really sick baby. They've come back from the Middle East and they're just getting they're getting worldass healthcare. So it is good in that regard. Um but yeah, you got to you got to pay for it and you got to cater to all citizens when they come in. So >> yeah. Yeah. And that's where the uh I think that's where the government is sort of slipping at the moment. We've sort of turned our back on on the citizens of 10 to 15 years ago.
>> Yeah.
>> And because we have over spent, we've over borrowed and we've overcommitted in so many areas, >> the government has now panicked. They can't cut back on areas like NDIS that has got to $50 billion a It's enormous.
>> Um, and they can't cut back on the green energy sector cuz they're too in too deep with it.
>> And they can't cut back on immigration because now that's a very economic or economically um good thing for the government.
>> And if they pulled back on any one of those, they would lose a lot of support.
They would lose uh potential um a money revenue coming in.
>> Yeah.
>> And they would lose votes in the end as well.
>> Yeah. So they're in this awkward position where they know they're destroying a nation.
They know they're over printing. They know they're over borrowing. They know they're overcommitting. But they're just trying to get through to the next election.
>> Yeah.
>> To try and keep their head above the water. And it's like, >> you know, I don't know if we're I don't know if we've hit the iceberg yet on the on the Titanic, but we're pretty close.
there there there's a lot of uh I would say they're taking directions that are going to be extremely expensive and not deliver on what they're promising. Net zero is a good example. Yeah, >> it's going to cost I I don't the numbers are astronomical if depending on where you look, but it's [clears throat] instead of that I'll be saying you need to actually maximize your energy supply and minimize [clears throat] your price and just make it as cheap as possible to we should be doing that with the biggest country around.
>> You're pretty um you understand, right?
This is a good good subject for us to get into about energy as well with recently what has happened over in Iran.
you know, if >> like the world sanctioned Iran for like 40 years and it survived and then Iran sanctioned the world for like 2 weeks and we're all screwed, right?
>> And um but you are very uh very well educated. I listened to you on the >> Cobic podcast about talking of our energy security, shipping lanes and how exposed we are as Australians and our government in regards to resources or >> or fertilizer, you know, that comes through the Middle East. Um, >> do you want to talk to me about that?
Yeah, you know, you've I just Yeah, you seem like you're the expert on it. So, >> I keep I talk a lot about the security of shipping into Australia. If that gets compromised, we will we will revert to like a 1960s level economy.
>> We won't be able to fuel in um electronics, supplies, vehicles. All the stuff that we take for granted will not come into the country and we won't be able to make it here. M >> and with um fuel obviously we don't have a big big reserve there at all. It was it was going to be I think 16 billion to get an extra 30 days. It was some high highly priced thing. They looked at it.
I know they've got McKenzie and company doing some consulting on it now to figure out what the fuel reserve shape and size and look should be. But um may we're hugely vulnerable. We're a small island country. We've chosen to import a lot of uh you know oil based products.
We don't have a lot of manufacturing on shore. Um, we should be able to sustain ourselves if we're cut off for a really long period of time, but we're not set up that way.
>> And it takes a long time >> to build the infrastructure to do it and the and the knowhow. And it is, like I was saying, it is more expensive in some cases to onshore these types of tasks.
Like if you're bringing fuel in from from other refineries around the world, it can be cheaper, but >> I think it's a for your national security, it's worth the price. Yeah.
Yeah. At what cost? Cuz uh that was one of the main points that I made >> right after um the straight of Hormuz got closed. Like back in the early 2000s, we used to extract and refine 80% of our oil. We had eight refineries then and now now we do about >> we we extract and refine 20% and we import 80%. And now we have two refineries and >> one of them just uh magically decided to have a fire a couple weeks ago. It's like, >> yeah, >> but um and then the same thing with our fertilizer. The fertilizer situation was almost identical in regards to percentages of importing and exporting back in the early 2000s. So over the last 20 years, our politicians, especially with the changing landscape with China, Russia, the US, and even the EU now, who seem to be sort of turning away and separating a little bit from the United States, >> the forever changing global environment that's been happening over the past couple decades, and Australia has just openly said, >> "Yeah, we'll just make ourselves uh >> uh completely exploed on the world stage in regards to our fuel and our fertilizer. Probably the two most important things you need.
>> Ammunition, like weapons, all that stuff, too.
>> Yeah, dude. I I did I remember doing one video on this ages ago. It was when the Chinese fleet went round Australia in waters >> did a loop. Yeah.
>> Did pull a lap. And I I [clears throat] just remember talking about Anyway, I got a heap of views. I was like, "Oh, people want to know about this stuff." I think the US we we fought World War II. We secured all this territory across the Pacific. The US obviously lost t, you know, hundreds of thousands of troops doing it. They've tried to hang on to this world system for a long time, but it is starting to unravel a bit. And part of the reason is cuz China is not what the Soviets were in the Cold War.
They're so much more powerful economically um population-wise. So, it's not what it was when the US was kind of dominant from the late from the '9s onwards once the Cold War had been won. They've now got these peer competitors and they're both saying, "We're actually peers. We want to see at the table. We don't want to follow your rules-based uh international order >> and that's where the toing and from you know the the argument between the large powers is that and when you see the for example this is where the US hitting Iran is like you've now lost credibility when another country like Russia attacks Ukraine or >> they'll just turn around and go well you do whatever you want." So we'll do the same thing. So you can kind of see the the argument from both sides. The US is trying to preserve what it fought so hard to win >> and everyone else is saying, well actually it's it's a double standard what you what you're doing.
>> Yeah. What was that other place they hid as well and they took all their oil?
Venezuela.
>> Oh, Venezuela. Yeah.
>> That little chestnut. Yeah. You >> kidnapped the dude overnight.
>> Exactly. So yeah, it's going it's getting to the point where the international law is a bit of a it doesn't stand for much. It used to I don't think it even then it didn't really at least they debated or pretended to debate invading Iraq. They at least took it to the UN >> whereas with in um Iran they uh they didn't even talk about they just went and did it.
>> Yeah. I was talking to a mate about this. He's a uh comedian and he was like, you know, when they went in there, at least the uh at least what do they call it?
Something it just, you know, at least the propaganda was was was half okay, you know, like, you know, they sold us the weapons of mass destruction. They, you know, they told us that that's it.
Saddam Hussein had had links to uh >> to terrorism. Like, at least they told us the propaganda was sort of okay. with Iran, it's just like, no, it's done now.
[laughter] >> They've been too honest.
>> Yeah, it just happens.
>> Do you see um do you see over the next next couple decades more sort of insecurity on the global stage with with these big powers?
>> I think the big Yeah, I think the the one that's concerning is you've got all three of the major leaders are in their twilight kind of years, particularly [clears throat] Russian and Chinese leaders. They're getting pretty old, especially gee, they think longer term, so they may not do anything about Taiwan in the short term, >> but they they might too. Like, you just don't know. So, the China said we're going to re reunify with Taiwan. It's not a matter of if, it's going to be when.
>> And so, how that happens and what the US does and what how it affects Australia would be the big is the big one. I think the the European and Middle Eastern wars will carry on. But for Australia, the Pacific is is the big one.
>> Yeah. And what's the Taiwan is the chips there, isn't it? Manufacturing chips.
>> Yeah. So, uh, traditionally, I think it was something like a huge percentage of the world's high-end chips were manufactured >> in Taiwan, including the some of the more exquisite ones, the weapons ones.
the US has started bringing that on shuring that because they're seeing kind of the writing on the wall with >> the fact that it could be either taken over peacefully or invaded.
So um that was the major that was the major strategic uh production thing they had going there which was the chip manufacturing which relies on helium which is another thing that goes through the straight horus >> in significant numbers. I was reading something the other day about the collapse of every empire. I'm really really love my history, right? And uh it's a bit of a um >> yeah, a bit of a passion of mine that and uh fine wine.
>> Yeah.
>> And as you've probably seen coming in here, but um >> uh why civilizations have collapsed.
>> Y >> and uh in particular the Roman Empire, how they expanded so far, so wide, so vast. They took over so much. They had these outposts everywhere, >> right? like the US have now. They have bases everywhere. Yeah. All over the world. And to sustain that, they had to continuously print more money >> and inflation just got so high that the Roman coins weren't worth anything.
>> Oh, really?
>> And we're seeing a similar thing happening now with the US dollar. It's like that's potentially why Trump went into Venezuela because there's trillions of dollars there worth of oil and they needed that to protect their dollar.
>> Yeah. And um it's just funny sometime empires they just get too big.
>> They try to control too much >> and in the background they print too much money >> and then you slowly start to see the cracks >> of civilization. And I think we're starting to slowly see it now. Whether that's a slow burn over the next 50 years or >> or it just happens overnight like it did with sort of well the Roman Empire was a very very slow long drawn out process.
But I mean they got invaded pretty quickly when all that fell down.
>> Yeah.
>> So I mean I potentially see something similar happening now.
>> But it's it's uh like I say with everything it's even Iran um what's happening in Europe and you know what Trump is doing with Venezuela and that it's all just chess pieces.
>> Yeah. a bomb like with all the global powers around the world >> and the US has always taken exception to interference in the Americas. They had like the Monroe Doctrine which was it was in the 1800s they're like no no no European influence in the Americas now like we're [clears throat] in charge of the Americas. So Venezuela was kind of a return to that. And then Cuba, which they're talking about now, is just this attempt to reshape the the region in the way that the US always wanted it to be, which was we don't want an outpost like Cuba >> that's socialist or whatever. You can see where Taiwan's a problem for China in the same way.
>> It's like you've got this democratic outpost that's used by the US >> to control waterways and whatnot and uh some of the economies. So the US is trying to do the same thing. They've got Venezuela. They're talking about Cuba at the moment. Um and they took action on Iran, which every president, I think since the 70s has been canvased by Israel, you know, we need to do this at some point [clears throat] >> and no one did it. And then Trump came [laughter] along >> and actually pulled the tri. I didn't think he would, but um there you go. He did.
>> Yeah, that was a uh when I was watching it, I was one of the first ones to come out and speak out against it, saying that this is not our war. we've got nothing to do with this. And uh I got pretty heavily attacked from it. But um and those people that uh came out and attacked me for it, there's haven't heard of boo since then for a while because it seemed to be a pretty big mistake >> on the world stage. I just couldn't see especially how you like you know you would know how Iran works like like how they have the provinces and individually.
>> Not not really. Not entirely. Not really. So obviously Iran over the past 30 years has just watched the US invade countries all around them, Afghan, Iraq, you know, Syria to to an extent and they've also seen Israel sort of work in Lebanon and places like that.
>> And they've obviously learned they've learned that um instead of having like a key key structure of one in command, I know the Ayatollah, right? But there was >> he just had more of a symbolic position, not really a strategic position. So every province in Iran is sort of broken down into um >> their own structure, their own setting.
They have their own weapon cases, their own weapon manufacturing.
>> Just decentralized >> that's completely. So if one command gets t taken out then the other 29 provinces can act alone and fire back.
>> Yeah.
>> So like you have to literally go in and you fight 30 individual small countries.
>> Yeah.
>> With their own weapon cases and their own weapon manufacturers. specifically the war they've been rehearsing for for since forever.
>> Yep. And they've known, they've seen, they've learned around it and um obviously straighting closing the straight of Humus as well. It's just pushed global pressure on and they're only letting through >> Chinese ships and it's like >> yeah, >> everyone else is getting angry at the US. It was never really going to end well. But I heard they just bombed them the other day again. US just bombed Iran. I'm >> there still. I don't know if they finalized the final deal, but [cough] [clears throat] excuse me. I was I did a a piece on you when they first struck the Iranian nuclear facilities. Remember doing a video on that and then >> that was a B-52 bomb.
>> Yeah. But that was this is a year ago now. Yeah.
>> Um and I didn't actually think they'd go and try and hit everything else. I just didn't think they it would happen. I didn't never even thought they'd hit the facilities. I thought they'd >> they' just kick that can down the road.
But um they haven't. They've gone and done it. and you just don't control the outcome once that happens unless you're willing to totally take the country over. You can't really and even then there's no guarantees.
Uh yeah, I think it's um yeah, I think they took a big gamble and it's it's still in play. I don't know how it's going to turn out.
>> Yeah, I mean and Australia's just seeing the side effects of that now. But I'm just glad that cuz there was like three weeks there where everyone in Australia was just talking about it.
>> Yeah. And I'm just like, "Guys, can we just go back to hammering the Labour Party? Like, [laughter] >> get back to the main."
>> Yeah, that's it. Get back to what we sort of can control here. Cuz um >> but it is it is related cuz like as these wars unfold, they do land the the impacts do land in Australia, the fuel boughs or wherever it is, people start to feel it. So, >> they are connected. Yeah. Yeah. And we saw it with the Ukraine as well once once because they're a massive producer of grain and all these ex like once the wars start and it becomes harder and harder to move products around >> and there's more money being spent in Australia, you do get uh prices going up for sure.
>> Yeah. I mean, it was like one day uh that war over in Europe between Ukraine and Russia started and then everyone was talking about it and like 6 months later, >> it just uh I mean, it just it stopped on the mainstream media. It stopped on Instagram and and YouTube. No, everyone stopped talking about it and but they're still going at it.
>> It's it's absolutely savage. And I heard the secretary of state uh Rubio talk about the other day. He's like the Russians are losing 15 to 20,000 soldiers a month killed. Not wounded, killed.
>> Wow.
>> It's just it's it's pretty bad. So I don't know how this one's going to end cuz now obviously Ukraine aren't folding.
Russia's not winning. I just I don't know how that ends.
>> Just just a meat grinder.
>> It's going to be meat grinder for a while.
>> Yeah. One of my mates was over there. Uh Matt Williams of >> Yeah.
>> Will he beating cancer?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He's been on the show four or five times.
>> Oh yeah. Nice.
>> Good guy. And uh he went over there and reported on the front lines >> and he's like >> crazy, >> mate. When you tell me the stat like there's 15 to 20,000 Russians dying per per month. I completely agree. Really?
>> 100. He he goes, "Dude, there were some basements over there >> where >> um they had no time to bury bodies, so they just chucked him in basement and he would open up and just be full of bodies."
>> He's and he's So whenever you say like there's a lot of people dying, I 100% believe it.
>> Cuz he told me he's like, "Dude, there is >> heaps of people dying. They don't have any time to bury these people, so they just chuck them in basement."
>> Well, that's why the numbers aren't even that accurate cuz they haven't they can't recover it. I know they try and verify stuff with open source. All the intelligence agencies and that are doing it, but the number is a lot. It's a astronomical amount.
>> Yeah.
>> Hey, um you said before you went for pre-selection. Would you ever go again?
>> Uh I don't I don't know about that. I think one of the things that stopped me last time, we had a family health issue, but also I was like, I'm actually not going to see my son because the amount of time you have to travel over to the uh east coast from WA for parliament alone is really substantial.
Um >> so yeah, that made it open my eyes up to the amount of work that um that goes on.
>> Yeah, it looks like a a very tough job.
Yeah. I mean, purely for the fact that you just it's like a I don't know how many days they sit. Maybe they'd sit for something like 60 or 80 days.
>> I think it's even more. It's more >> maybe more. Maybe more. But um yeah, the whole time obviously you're back in CRA.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh I'm assuming that uh you know you're house up with other politicians and stuff like that.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean if you're in CRA pretty straightforward or Sydney, but if you're in the regions obviously you're away from the family. It's, you know, then you're back in your electorate and >> meeting people and it would be would be a hard job.
>> I would hate to just go to that bubble of CBER every uh every every few weeks.
I mean, I was there the other day hanging out with >> uh Robert Pot's parents. He's the guy he's a guy that died on my trip during the green on blue. So, I went and stayed with his parents.
>> Yep.
>> And uh met them. Um Hugh and Janney.
Hugh's going to come on the podcast actually. It' be cool. And uh yeah, but just in that CRA, it just felt different. It felt weird.
>> I've been a longtime critic of uh CR only cuz I went there from Perth and I was like, what is this place? But >> for um work when you were >> when I when I joined. Yeah. When I joined and went through ADA.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Um it was the late ' 90s, but it was just a small I couldn't believe how small a town it was.
>> Um and then obviously went back and lived there when I was in Dun. So interesting place. They seem to be very disconnected, Camber. And the one way you can tell how disconnected they are when >> that voice was being voted through.
>> Yeah.
>> So, every other state said no.
>> Craber said overwhelmingly yes.
>> And it just shows you how disconnected they were. I remember that was one of the main points I thought to myself.
Yeah. They're >> they're very disconnected to the rest of Australia. They're that Camber bubble that's real.
>> Yeah. I can remember him pitching all the all the hard pitching that was going on with it and I [clears throat] was like the they were I was in Melbourne at the time and they were I'm like it's not people like you don't need to go into um Brunswick and convince them to vote for it. It's people like me or people that have a question about amending a constitution which is a pretty big deal.
That's your whole operating system. I was just a bit more skeptical about it.
I think there's a smarter way. And um they misread it. But also I think from what I'd seen is they had been spooked by Gillard or or Rod Rudd or Gillard giving up on their um carbon tax and a few other promises.
They kind of pledged to pursue and because of that they kind of stuck to their guns and said we're going to see it through anyway.
>> But it was a mistake. I think it was a divisive thing and a big waste of money.
>> Yeah. Massively. I mean, you know, I just think as Australians, we're all equal and it sort of doesn't matter if you come from that Angloeltic or European background or if you come from that indigenous background.
Everyone can like just enter into Price, you can run for parliament and and you can speak on behalf of the indigenous population.
>> Yes. if you run for parliament like >> you don't need to >> have a certain part of Australia that only permits for 5% of the people maybe or or or less or whatever that population is.
>> Yeah.
>> To have a separate voice >> for that. It's like well you people can also parliament >> there's already mechanism for it. Yeah.
And it's Yeah.
>> It just never made sense to me.
>> It's not saying there's not pockets of Australia that are severely disadvantaged. There are. But is that the way to address it? I I didn't think so.
>> Yeah. Cuz then you'd look past it and you're like, "Hey, [snorts] everyone comes out." I could imagine in 20 years time when uh you know the Angloeltic population are like, "Hey, we want our separate voice department now because we're 1% of the population.
We're heading there with our low birth rates and importing people."
Yeah, >> I seen a stat the other day and I haven't stopped banging on about it where we're importing two to three migrants for rebirth in this country.
>> Yeah, right. I know there's well something like 1.2 million in the last or since the commencement of the Albanese government 1.2 million which is a big increase and um again if you don't have housing it's just going to get more and more inflated. all your all your prices are going to be inflated. Your rent's going to be inflated. Um so yeah, I mean the good thing about having a democracy is you can vote a government out every couple, you know, every couple of years. You don't need to wheel the guillotines out like they used to.
>> Um so m I think people will decide if this keeps if it keeps going this way and they're not happy about it, it will be they will be turfed out and it'll be another party that forms government. M it was interesting thing that you said before um how you were like um you know the Indian community or whatever they're like mostly conservative people but they might vote I yeah 100% are >> yeah I picked that up.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So where they come from, it's like even if you're importing Middle Easterners, like they're more conservative than conservative people in Australia, >> right? They're like the traditional, you know, men are in parliament >> sort of thing. And um most of those third world countries around the world it's vastly different to voting on the left side of politics but they vote on the left side of politics because the left sort of speak up from where the US more conservative even further right nationalist approach are like you know we just want to protect what we have here but all these people coming in and voting for the left are normally if they're in their own country they would be voting for the right side of politics.
>> Just very interesting how it works out cuz all these people are important. They are very conservative people. Yeah, it is a bit odd. And I know the problem is then you see things like the Biden government was criticized for this cuz they were very loose on border control.
It was something like 9 million people enter the country illegally >> during that window, which is you've then got a all the administration that comes with that is an issue. So, [sighs] and that's where you see candidates like Trump getting leverage because they're like this is unfair. It's, you know, you can see how it kind of works in that direction. But um and they had this this isn't the first time this discussion has been had. I remember so after Vietnam we took on something like 40 or 50,000 Vietnamese refugees might have been even more but they had the similar argument then they're like no this is this is bad for culture. I know that when the English were being brought over as uh the e the10 prom program they had similar discussions. So I don't know if this is different. I don't know if the numbers are different but yeah it's um two years time it's going to be front and center I re well it is now but it's going to be front and center then >> yeah I think the Labor government is just going to see how many people they can fast track to citizenship to get to vote for I mean cuz that's even price came out and said that majority of these people that are coming will vote Labor >> isn't it a few years people have a few years after citizenship before they can vote or >> I'm not too sure >> I think it was 3 years or something >> I'm not too sure >> yeah you can't you can't run in the door and then start voting I think it's um but still yeah >> I mean I would love to see um the [ __ ] citizenship status get pulled away completely like they do in um overseas in Dubai and stuff like that like there's only >> oh they're ruthless absolutely ruthless >> and um like you can come to the country and just live as a permanent residence and >> you can uh buy this house but at any one time if we feel like we need to get people out there's no citizenship. I'd love something like that happen.
>> I'd love for the only citizenship in this country to be granted via birth.
Well, the I know that when um the mining boom started to take off and the libs were they were there at the start of this curve going up cuz I know it was an [clears throat] issue in the early 2010s.
>> Mining boom was taking off. We didn't have enough people basically, especially skilled people. So the libs did start increasing then but it's it's absolutely skyrocketed after um co as well. So yeah m we don't have the infrastructure for it. I don't know what they're going to do. Um but it could be a real social issue and a voting issue >> um pretty soon.
>> And the turn back as well, right? Cuz we've went so far down the hole for the last like 10 years slowly, right? Really slow. But the rip back and the U-turn is just going to make a lot of people upset. Like so many people upset.
>> Yeah.
>> On the left side of politics.
>> Yeah.
>> Because they've slowly just had their way.
>> Oh, you mean if they reverse everything?
>> Yeah. So, like say if a One Nation gets in and they do a bit of a U-turn, net zero gone, we're burning coal and gas.
[laughter] We're slow. We're shutting down immigration. We're pulling welfare from a whole bunch of people. NDIS gets cut in half.
>> We're going to shrink the government sector. Half the bureaucrats are gone.
It's just going to be a shock, a good shock to the system, but there's going to be a lot of people out there heavily complaining that have been on the >> Yeah.
>> government tip for example. Yes, I know.
So, that that has distorted uh the both the labor market and the economy because I'll give you example.
So you've got someone who for who's a young guy that works in a bicycle shop, good with bikes, athlete, repairs bikes, does all that works for say 45 bucks an hour doing that job.
You get an offer to go on to an NDIS, uh, you know, become a carer, whatever it is at 65, $70 an hour doing arguably less work. What What are you going to do? you're going to switch from that primary role where you're skilled and productive into another role which is kind of government subsidized and is less productive even though it's important. You got to we need a scheme to look after um disability for sure.
But you can see where when it's so enormous it does [clears throat] >> it does reduce productivity. There's no there's no way it it it can do anything other than that in some cases.
>> And fraud creeps in.
>> What's that? Sorry.
>> Fraud.
>> Oh fraud. Fraud always creeps in. Uh greed always creeps in and people take advantage of the system, right? And that's what's happening now.
>> You can see it >> all across Australia where people are taking advantage of the NDI system and >> yeah, it's it's uh it's sad to see that the government let it get here and the way back is to make some hard cuts and unfortunately there's going to be some people that need to be on it that are going to be taken off >> massive system. Exactly. It's um it's just a mismanage. Good idea, but it's been totally mismanaged for sure.
>> I think they went from over seven or eight years ago, it started off with a 5 billion program >> and now it's with um >> 60,000 people on it and over the last decade it's went from 5 billion to 50 billion and 60,000 to over 700,000 people on it.
>> Oh, really? And then you think as well like the admin, the carers, the organizers, >> all the people that that employs.
>> Yeah.
>> The machine's gotten too big.
>> It's a big It's a big >> It's like It's like double the uh double the budget of our military.
>> Did you know that?
>> So our military budget is something I think like 30 billion a year.
>> Yeah.
>> And the NDIS is over 50.
>> Yeah. [laughter] They're going to run into trouble with that. Um Yeah. I I know they're trying to kind of wind it in, but it's um mate, it's a lot of money. We don't we don't really [sighs] Yeah, we've got we've got to build in a different direction, I reckon.
>> Yeah, we got to get back to basics. I always tell people like this. Um the recent basics we've seen with Anthony.
He got [laughter] there's this uh is this lady named Karen, and I always like to bully her now cuz she bullied me on the ABC.
>> Oh, no. I don't even know her name, but I've just named her Karen, cuz you know how you get um >> you know, it's like a >> Do you mean a reporter or something?
>> Yeah, like a news news host for the ABC.
>> Yeah, [clears throat] right.
>> Um she hates Australian, she's Australian.
>> Oh, really?
>> She Yeah, she just hates us. And uh so I I've nicknamed her Karen.
>> And the other day, and there is a story out of this, but I just want to get this funny thing out. The other day, uh her and a few others came at me on the ABC for my comments with just into [snorts] >> Price on the podcast.
So on the Sunday I shared a story saying because when they were there they were just saying like this podcast guy.
>> Oh yeah.
>> And I'm like they were never they would never say my name.
>> Yeah.
>> So um I just put a story up saying wouldn't it be funny if a whole bunch of my followers go to her page and comment on her post saying say his name Karen.
And she got like hundreds within the first 30 minutes. So she disabled the comments on it.
>> Yeah. And it was just like it was one way that I was like, you know what, you can't just go there and talk [ __ ] about people online or on TV stations >> and there be no accountability now.
Like, welcome to the world of accountability.
>> I have like I actually thrive off this stuff when people come at me.
>> And uh yeah, welcome to the world of social media where I can now push back, >> mate. I've run into this. We had some, this is post when I did Survivor when there was a there was one or two people that rounded up their their crew to go after someone digitally and I was like got to be careful with that.
>> It happened to to a mate, similar guy I was talking about just then.
>> But um yeah, it's a funny world.
>> It's uh Yeah. Anyway, but uh yeah, the so story I was getting to was um Anthony Abanzy was on a ABC show with Karen and Karen asked her um asked him, sorry, um what is a woman? And his response was, I'm not going to get into those low identity politics.
>> Oh, right. And I thought to myself, bro, I mean, the starting point for me of who I'm going to vote for is if you can't define the difference between a male and a female, it's like that's the basic common sense. And if a government can't get that right, then I'm not going to trust you in a trillion dollar budget.
I'm not going to trust you to make, you know, um, calls on immigration, net zero, >> whatever's happening within our society.
It's like if you can't get that right, >> I'm sorry, you can't run Australia.
>> Yeah, it's funny cuz this was never really a discussion topic, but there no one ever paused when they were asked um to do that, but uh now it seems to happen pretty often. I think people are afraid to kind of weigh into that one.
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, One Nation came out and defined it. The Liberal Party came out and defined it, but um the Labour Party don't want to. But I think this is if this happened a year ago, I don't think anyone would have came out and defined it. We're just changing as a society now.
>> No, I feel like it's kind of normalizing, you know, returning back to the the center a bit more.
>> Yeah. The common sense, >> which is nice to see, but um I just hope we're not too far gone. There's going to be have to there's going to be some pretty brutal calls at the next election that has to be made in regards to the government to get us back on.
>> It'll come back. I just feel like the because of how and you would have seen this with your own channels and your own stuff because of how incentives work on either social media or broadcasting platforms you do gravitate towards stuff which is more likely to generate comments or more agitating and so it has a I think it's got an inflationary effect on people you know they'll they'll get one particular thread they don't like and then they'll be fed more content about it.
>> So it is more It's more polarizing. It generates more money for the companies that run the platforms. And then people like you and I if we, you know, I did one one video on China coming to Australia and I get all of a sudden a lot of ad revenue from it and I might be tempted to keep doing that.
>> So you can see where this [clears throat] is different to what it was even 10 years ago. This didn't really exist. So you've got voices like your own or mine that can talk about it, but in some ways it's also there it is being skewed by these companies that profit from it too.
>> Yeah. The algorithm controllers >> and um >> just feeding off dopamine hits.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's an it's a it's a totally new phenomenon. I don't >> and and legislation hasn't caught up to it. They don't know what to do. Moves too quick. So yeah, I don't know what's going to happen with it.
>> Yeah. That's why I love doing these long form ones.
>> Um cuz the short form content, >> it's just a hook to try and get people here >> to listen to these.
>> Y >> um but unfortunately my sort of business structure or andor my voice >> um has launched off the short 3minute rules.
>> Yeah.
>> And obviously, you know, you I push hard in them. I I say what I believe. I say what I think needs to happen.
>> Um but I don't hold back because people's attention span these days. I mean, like if you're not if you haven't got them in the first 3 seconds, >> you're done.
>> It's like they they just move on. It's it's cutthroat. They move on.
>> And then to try and drag him here for, you know, an hour and 15 to to an hour and a half.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, they would have stayed for the last episode cuz there was some fireworks, but >> Yeah. How long did that go for in the end?
>> 2 hours.
>> Oh, really?
>> 2 hours. And how long was the kind of battle the the verbal battle going on for?
>> From 25 minutes to about an hour and a half and then the last Yeah. last half an hour sort of come down. So >> that long?
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> I didn't know that.
>> Yeah. But uh man, I've got respect for James and Joe and >> Yeah.
>> You know, but that's what we have to do, right? We have to be able to come in here and and uh debate with each other.
Sometimes it gets a bit heated.
Sometimes it gets a bit um we get a bit angry at each other.
We did come around at the end and we both sit on the right side of politics.
>> Yeah.
>> And um yeah, it was good to just have someone in. Then we went and sat out there and had a coffee for half an hour later and sort of giggled about what happened.
>> Yeah. You should mate you should be able to debate these topics and not have it land on your head.
>> But um but mate, tell me about I know I don't know what you said about Hasty. I know and cuz he's a mate of mine, but tell me more about him and the issue that people ran into with Hasty or how they've disagreed with what he said >> during the hate speech or >> hate hate speech and then I think BRS as well. What what happened there? Cuz I don't I haven't I'm not fully across it, but I know he's been criticized by a bunch of people and >> yeah, >> I did and I did see an article in the West which was that was a bit of a it was a bit of it was very selective and they kind of piled on him. So, but I'm interested to hear what you think about it.
>> Yeah. I mean, uh, Hasty came on my podcast, uh, would have been 9 months ago.
>> And, um, yeah, I mean, nice enough guy, did a podcast together, did a lot of surface level issues.
>> Yeah.
>> And, um, yeah, I mean, there was a few times where I called a few things out after that and I don't think he was >> too happy about it, but, you know, again, it didn't really do anything. It just that was my opinion on something.
Yeah.
>> But yeah, the hate speech laws came around and um the hate group laws and all week he sort of came out and said, "We're against this. We're against this.
We're against this."
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And then he voted for it.
>> Yeah.
>> And I don't think it would have been that much of a blowback for him if he didn't stop at that.
>> So if he stopped and just went >> the reason I've done this is to ban headport to or whatever. There's some some you know Islamic group.
>> Oh, that's right. Yeah. and and the Nazis. He goes, "I you know um we worked the bill. We gutted it >> and we have worked it out so we can ban these groups."
>> Mhm.
>> If he didn't if he left it at that reckon he would have been all right.
>> Yeah.
>> Just cop the pile on for a couple days, stay off social media and move on.
>> But he came back and started chipping.
>> Yeah.
>> At the very community that sort of >> helped him sort of get there. And it was just to me it was just a little bit childish >> at why he came and chip backed at everyone >> cuz I don't know man if you're going to be a good leader you need to be able to take criticism like dude if I chip back at people that were chipping at me every single day that's all I would do >> you know there's like people make 20 reels about me a day across a whole bunch of content creators you just >> you just you just cop it and move on.
>> I think I don't know how much that would have worried him. I think the and I don't know cuz I haven't I didn't actually talk to him about that but I think the BRS thing >> and this is this is the point I made about the witnesses is like >> he those guys were compelled to go and then discuss the problem is he him being a public figure um has made him a bit of a lightning rod for you know if people are supportive of Ben Robert Smith it is easy to single out someone who's either you know politician or maybe it was an officer or whatever else. So, I feel like he's coped it unnecessarily for that. I know the article [clears throat] in the West was really quite bad. It painted painted it as though he had some organized campaign against BR. It's not true. It that argued on selection or BRS had given him [ __ ] on select. Mate, it doesn't it doesn't happen like that. I know that >> cuz Hesto came out against that. Oh, did he?
>> No, no, not came out against it. He sort of uh >> that's what he suggested and it went viral on the cast overcast.
>> I didn't know that.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, mate, um he's he wasn't in the unit like he wouldn't know. And I know I know Hesto, but guys that have actually have either done selection with that unit would know.
>> No one talks about selection after you've done it in the sense that if I if I watch you on selection, you're at your worst. So I don't talk to you about 2 years later and go remember that time in selection you were a bag of [ __ ] >> No one says that cuz it's just it's hard. Um so I don't think like this this idea that if they had some uh rivalry I don't think that's fair. Uh so yeah I know he's coped it from that. I'm sure it's I'm sure it would have hurt him.
But mate I think he's a good guy. He's got outstanding family values. He is still serving his country. I think guys like that, we need to throw him some some slack because especially being an MP, I didn't have the courage to do it, mate. I couldn't do it.
>> Um, but he has uh, you know, he's continued to do it and I give him a lot of credit for that. So, yeah, you know, anyone who's kind of thought differently about it, I I'll offer that perspective.
>> Yeah. And, uh, this is the toughest thing about this whole BRS uh, hasty position. um the the people that are standing on the stand against him, the people that are with Ben, >> it's a very high environment, high level performing environment that you guys have performed in, right?
>> And um for your average person, even me, for the average soldier, we don't really understand >> that high level environment that uh you guys were operating in. Um, have I enjoyed or liked any of the slander going either way? No, because it's members of the public shooting out >> not really knowing about >> No one wins mate either. Like no one's going to win out of this. it's just going to be bad for like it's just it's not a >> but one of my issues with um Hasty is uh >> his relationship whether he has it or doesn't has it or or doesn't have it with um Nick McKenzie, >> you know, he he went and did that piece with Nick McKenzie and I sort of sat back there. I've watched it back again and I'm like, why would you go sit down with someone like Nick McKenzie after he openly went after some of your fellow SA soldiers? I just didn't get that from a maybe from a soldier perspective. I understand Nick has a whole bunch of uh connections. He's very powerful within the media world. And I thought to myself with hasty, I'm like, why would you go sit down with someone like that? I think I would look at it less from a soldier perspective and probably more from a political one. So >> but that's the problem I think I have with >> but yeah but a lot of it's not unusual I think for uh elected reps to have a relationship with a journalist which is they rely on the journalist to get the right information out to the public and vice versa journalists [clears throat] will rely on them to source either background or other other material. So, it's not unusual they do have a relationship and rely on each other for for [clears throat] different things.
So, Hasty may have had another agenda, something totally unrelated that we that he would need help with later and that's why they might cooperate on one topic, >> but yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously it's >> that's Yeah, >> people won't agree with that. I know what you're saying.
>> Yeah, but and that's the thing. It's just like >> I never made it to that level, so I would never be in their position. So, it's like I don't know. But if I compare that to me and a guy from 3 hour, I just wouldn't sit down with Nick McKenzie. I wouldn't sit in the same room. I I understand. I I understand where you're coming from in regards to >> in regards to um political powers as such and having to work with people.
>> I just mate, there's something in there that would just want me to jump over the table and jump out his throat. You know what I mean? Like I like I couldn't bring myself to be in the same room as him.
>> Yeah. And you know, Hasty sort of did it. And I'm like, I just I just And then it just it just didn't it just didn't look great as well after all that. It's like, oh, Hasty's with McKenzie against BRS. It's like, what's going on? Aren't they supposed to be soldiers together?
It's like that's the thing with the media though. You're talking about leverage points >> and there's not I don't know if these binary camps kind of exist. You know, I think >> and this is the way I see it. people who are a lot more qualified than me with the law are going to be looking at this.
It kind of irks me a bit that it's like how does the jurisdiction work? If these crimes are committed or these allegations are true and they've happened in on international soil >> potentially under a different entirely different system, how are they then prosecuted in in Australia? I don't >> I don't know how jurisdiction works exactly, but [clears throat] these are all questions you can see the average Australian would be interested in. M I also think as well like >> man yeah I'm of that spirit of like uh yeah who is anyone to judge from a position of being in your uh your airond conditioned environment going up and going to university or just your standard Aussie trying to um question people for >> what happened over there when the enemy were un you couldn't even identify them.
They used women and children as human shields. On our trip, there was a 13-year-old suicide bomber.
>> They did um green on blue tactics. You know how it is over there, mate. Like >> pretty under.
>> You know, how how for you how could someone get judged in an environment like that?
>> And what does that do on our national security and our patriotism as a country?
>> Yeah.
>> Like who's going to want to join the military after this?
because they'll be more afraid of the dudes in suits in >> the farmers running around with AK-47s overseas. It's like it's going to create an environment where soldiers second guess themselves.
>> Yeah.
>> And when they do that, people die.
>> And I think this has come about because there has been something fester within our government with this Australia hating culture. But as a result of this, if we do get into another conflict, god forbid, but if we do, people are going to second guess themselves >> and we're going to be put at risk at that. That's what I think.
>> Yeah. And if if you looked at it from just a justice perspective, it's like, yeah, you need to do all this, but there's so many other layers on this that um a lot you just pointed out. Um, but having said that, if you're a specialist or even a highly trained or professional soldier or special forces, you do have to follow rules of engagement. So, [clears throat] this is where it'll get interesting is when they test all this in court and they they try and figure it out.
>> And I mean, Hesto said it perfectly as well.
>> It would it should have only ever went directly here. So, it could have been tested beyond reasonable doubt, not >> just on the probability of This might have happened.
>> Yeah, I think that was a mistake >> because when they ran through with the defamation, it was like, well, it's clearly channel 9 verse channel 10 here.
>> Well, I was thinking less the defamation, more the Breon report.
>> Well, yeah. The minute you find the possibility of what you think is or allegations or evidence of a war crime, why would you continue to investigate it knowing that you could be compromising the legal process later on >> and then presenting to the public as though it's a [sighs] you know a done you know these allegations are happening then apologize to the Afghan people. It just it was a very badly handled >> Yeah. and and you know Breton came out and uh said there's no requirement to investigate any of the higherups in the military. All the brass got a dodge on it in there.
>> It's not for him to it's not for him to say.
>> And um >> because like for example, right, what's the uh you you love footy AFL?
>> Yeah.
>> What's the first thing you do when there's a failing team? You know, you look to the coach, right?
>> Definitely kill a few uh few of the play a few of the players. No, go to the top.
But uh >> yeah, accountability. You can't be half accountable like if you're picking up, you know, medals and on the other hand, you got to be responsible for what's happening.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I think and people aren't wrong for being supportive of one side of the other. So, you you know, whatever side of this argument you see, but my whole issue with it is this is going to be um it's going to be very tough, very damaging, and yeah, I don't love it, mate. A lot of my mates were caught up in it. It's um it's not fun. I am I am praying for both sides because um I have had uh I caught up with someone the other day who's close to this as well. I won't obviously drop his name and all but uh yeah he's saying that you know it's it's um people on both sides like you and it's it's obviously not nice.
It's not nice for for for both sides having to go in under under oath as well being subpoenaed in. Yeah.
>> So the whole process doesn't have to go through, you know, the trial process.
>> Um I mean that's what that's what I hope so it can just be put behind us.
>> M I'm going to be watching it with with interest. It's going to be um >> yeah it'll be super interesting I think >> cuz people are weaponizing it as well.
Like um if you know who we're talking about the right side is is like a lot of Patriots have woken up from it. the left side is weaponizing it more than the the the right. From what I've seen online, there are more left-leaning accounts that are coming after this um to try and um >> uh rocket ship their platform or rocket ship their movement >> to um help the cause of far-left politics.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be messy. Um for sure.
>> But we won't know this for the next five or six years.
>> No, I think it'll take ages for sure.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Yeah. I mean, such a touch. It's such a Now that you sort of sit back on it's just such a It's such a [ __ ] I I wish this never got out in the first place. You cuz this all started with uh Chris Masters getting embedded in the SAS, didn't it? And he came out and wrote a book out.
>> It's embedded in SOTG and through his reporting picked up on rumors that also the defense headquarters had picked up on as well, >> which they then started investigating.
So, it wasn't like I wouldn't say it's exclusively a reporter that started this. It was kind of >> was all seemed [clears throat] like it was all unfolding at a similar point in time.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I remember um cuz I was talking to Hugh P about it and uh he had his book there and just bagged him out, but uh we we were both sort of having a beer together when I was down there in CRA and he was saying, "I just don't I just don't understand how someone from SOTG or the army came out and said, yeah, we're going to let an independent reporter be embedded with SOTG overseas and tell the story." I just as like a as I just from a security perspective I just don't think that was the right call.
>> I think the defense I think defense had some vetting rights. I don't think it was like unfettered >> access. I think they had fairly strict control over it. But one of the problems you run into is when you are in a conflict like this which I saw is like how do you how do you communicate it with the public? M >> I don't think defense did a good job.
They did they very restrictive around what the public knew [sighs] and I think there's a reason for it. If the public knew they would have seen how fragile the progress was >> and you know you were there you would have seen the guys getting killed for very little you know some progress but not really anything lasting.
Um so >> well they they took the place back in 2 weeks mate >> mate 2 weeks >> and it was uh completely overrun but yeah I just um I also I also think and this is where my mind runs that you know over the past decade they've been telling a younger generation that landeron is stolen they've been pumping them full of hormones >> they've let this Australia hating culture fester um the universities are doing the same thing the government's flooding us with immigration And now I just think this is one of their just another another attack on Australian patriotism, culture, and history. And how do you do that? You go after the toughest. If you can throw the toughest in jail, >> then none of the young men have anyone to look to.
>> It's like another another damper on Western society. I just think, man, that's where my conspiracy brain goes.
>> Yeah. I think if the if that's if what you're saying is true, then if we if if you can construct the right argument to point that out, then you know people can people can vote with their feet.
>> You might [clears throat] be able to influence something in a direction that that you think's right.
>> Um, one thing I wanted to say is that uh Lachlan Muddle, an SAS guy died parachuting >> not long ago, was buried on Friday. Mhm.
>> And I had mates go to the funeral. I wasn't able to get to it, but um and I'm going to do a video on this myself eventually because he's one example of a bunch of guys that do this training. It's so high risk. You would have seen it even just in the infantry stuff.
>> And then um you get fatalities in train. I think it was about one a year when I was there.
and including one of my mates guy Josh Porter I did Rio with who [clears throat] died training off Fiji.
So yeah and I get people ask me this all the time like how do we help if people want to help? So, anyone who's listening, if if you do want to help people like uh Lachlan or his family or anyone from the services, there's um there's a bunch of organizations you can you can support. Legacy being one and also um the foundations either SAS or Commando. So, >> yeah, I uh yeah, someone sent me through that model one, the um the parachuting accident.
>> Yeah, it's uh extra guy.
>> Oh, really? Did you know it?
>> No, no, no. way before my time.
>> All right.
>> But apparently he was a bit of a weapon.
>> Yeah, he was he was a couple years older than me. I remember he joined a bit later, like 2009 or something. I remember being a I only met him briefly, but yeah, it's um >> it's a dangerous game. Anything parachuting at night under under MVGs or whatever, it's pretty >> pretty high risk. So, >> how much did you do you get all your free fall tickets in that?
>> No, I did. I was I was vehicle mounted.
Um, everyone made fun of us for being overweight, but yeah. So, vehicle mounted and then I did you do the static line stuff and >> so I didn't do any intense kind of free fall stuff, but that looks I mean it looks fun, but looks pretty >> pretty risky as well. Did you do any of that or no?
>> Um, no, none of the free fall stuff. I did I did get paracquel >> um just the static line stuff.
>> I didn't mind the static line stuff. It wasn't too bad.
>> It was easy. It was just fun. You just [laughter] >> And it was good as well. You went down a narrow for a few weeks.
>> Yeah. and um bit of a change of pace but uh yeah then mate we had our we had our three arrow got their wings taken off us and we went up to Townsville.
>> Yeah.
>> Then they sent us over to Afghan >> is like the uh so went from Sydney >> when was shipped to Townsville >> right before Afghan so 2011 and they dangled that carrot to get everyone up there.
>> Yeah.
>> Everyone moved from Sydney to Townsville. Went to Afghan and then we all came back and put our D's in because no one wanted to live up in Townsville.
>> A dirty trick. And then they uh >> Tails was all right. I didn't I didn't mind it.
>> Yeah. I just It was too much in the end with one, two, and three hour there.
>> Oh yeah. It was bad enough with one and two, >> mate. You could go out and you just could not get away from army.
>> Oh, really? Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And you'd go out and then you just fight BS from one and two.
>> Oh, really?
>> And it was just like what am I?
>> One and two B would have been united for the first time in Yeah.
>> Yeah. I enjoyed I didn't mind my time in towns. It was pretty pretty uh you know.
How long were you up there for?
>> I did three years there. Yeah.
>> Um so a lot of guys who were at Dantrun and about to graduate wanted to go to two RA because they were the next rotation to East Tele. That was pretty much the only the only show happening back then. [gasps] So um yeah, me and a few m from Drew got in and went up there and um yeah, it was good fun.
>> Why' you uh why did you want to go Perth?
>> Oh mate, it's the only reason I joined the army. I saw I saw photos of uh Princess Gate the hostage siege in London back in 1980 >> and I was like who's this like was doing hostage rescue and found out it was the Brit SAS did a bit of homework on it. I thought this looks pretty good and then found out the Aussies had formed our own unit [clears throat] and thought I better get in. I actually called the guard room when I was I think it was in grade nine or 10. I was like, [sighs] you know, he looked it up in the phone book, Campbell Barracks, and rang him up and I'm like, "Hey, uh, how do I get SAS?"
>> Oh, really?
>> And the guy was like, "Yeah, he's just some security guy." He's like, "Who are you?" I'm like, "Oh, Mark, I got a high school in Perth." He's like, "Well, I'm not telling you anything, mate. Like, you got to go through army ch."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, um, yeah, mate. It's kind of how I got started in the army anyway.
>> And then, um, what? You spent seven years there? Seven years. Seven, eight years.
>> Yeah. Uh, 2004 to 2010. So, about six years. got any highlights in your career?
>> Oh mate, it was we were lucky cuz we joined um the first couple two or three tours of Afghan had happened.
There was Iraq, the initial invasion.
Then there was a bit of a lull 2004 and then John Howard recommitted a squadron um in 2005 when I was doing my Rio cycle >> and we were like this is interesting and I was like this is going to be over in the next year or two. So we got to get over there. [sighs] And then I did some deployments to East Teeour uh and as a true commander in a few cases. And then 2007 got the rotation to be a true commander in the winter. Like it was like the winter kind of the weird rotation from about uh June through to December.
>> Sorry, late it was late that like July through to September. end of summer and um yeah mate it was it was full on as as you know it's like the [clears throat] the old days and we didn't have much of a footprint in Torah and a few other valleys and yeah we just it was a case of get in there support a clearance uh find out what you can make sure that you know when the helicopter's coming to land we don't have heavy weapons so it was very traditional >> close target reconnaissance observation posts it wasn't as aggressively um targeting missions like we did later.
That was when we didn't have as many helicopters, so it was a lot of vehicle and footbased stuff. But yeah, it was it was a great job.
>> Was that them long range ones that you guys started doing?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh, mate.
>> Pretty good until you hit, you know, IDs and whatnot.
>> Yeah, I remember my cousin telling me about a few of those. The uh them long range ones you went out. He's like, "You just go camping for a couple weeks, but with weapons, >> shooting the bad guys."
>> Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty um they were good if you weren't getting channeled into a particular area, >> but the minute that happened, it was, you know, it was problematic. But obviously the bush r bush masters were starting to come in about that point kind you were running with the uh them them uh like Humvey four-wheel drive things, weren't you?
>> Um [sighs] we had the six wheel longrange patrol vehicle. M >> and then for the kind of heck the main headquarters vehicle we had a Bushmaster but um the problem was they just they couldn't take mine strike at all or they just not really designed for it.
>> Yeah. They didn't have that hole-shaped button bottom like the >> put a bucket on top of a bomb just blow it to bits.
>> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Um man that's where we probably end up and finish there.
>> Nice.
>> But uh mate Mark Wales thanks for coming on tour.
>> Thanks for having me mate.
>> You're welcome. Thanks for listening to Two Worlds Collide podcast. If you guys enjoyed the episode or you just enjoy what I do in general, then you can head to my website link is in the description where you can buy some merch or jump on my Patreon program. What's your thoughts?
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