Pashupati Seal Row Sparks Clash Between Historians Over Shiva Link | Plain Speak | News18

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]A huge row on deniialism of ancient [music] India continuity broke out on X after a professor of South Asian history Audrey Trash [music] claimed that the figure in the famous Pashupati seal is not Shiva. After Ministry [music] of Culture posted the image of the seal to send a message on India's unbroken civilizational [music] continuity.

[00:00:18]Audrey refuted outrightly that the image denotes Shiva in the 4500year-old seal [music] found at Mohindaro site. Now, Ministry of Culture had tweeted seemingly giving [music] a message to Pakistan and its leadership where leaders have been appropriating ancient [music] relics as evidence of Pakistan's continued history. But a whole another row broke out when Audrey [music] denied any links to Shiva and instead suggested that this more likely adapted from a protoelmite [music] ainography showing a Eurasian daty as a lord of animals.

[00:00:53]Well, responses were swift and straight.

[00:00:55][music] Amish Tripati, for example, noted author questioned how a water buffalo and a rhinoceros [music] seen in a seal can be connected to ancient Ilam while which was centered in southwestern Iran. [music] He added, "Elephants, water buffaloos, rhinoceroses are not native to ancient Ilam [music] by the way. They are native to India. Also, the figure is se shows a seated in a yogic [music] posture is yoga elemite." Now seriously and then there is of course a response from historian Hindul Sen Gupta who also questioned Audrey's intent [music] as a white woman telling Indian ministry that she knows better than Indian culture and whether any Indian can get away [music] doing the same with American history. He also made comparison to the protoelomite imagery of the kneeling bull which was being compared to the pashupati sea [music] to suggest interaction between the two periods. Now he says even if interaction existed, it can't deny [music] that the Indis Valley seal is an ancestor to Shiva imagery in India. He also says a mere [music] suggestion of interaction becomes full-blown cultural denial and theft by the likes of Trushki. The tiger, elephant, rhino, buffalo are all contextually relevant for the Indis [music] Valley civilization. And in context he adds of comparison to the Gundastrop cauldron he mentions how IVC predates the cauldron [music] period by 1500 years again therefore to make the point that IVC cannot be [music] seen as adapting from those that came after it.

[00:02:25]So the big debate really is if there [music] is an attempt especially by foreign historians and commentators to deny what is known in India very plainly as [music] a continuity of the Hindu faith. That's coming up.

[00:02:42]And one of those historians and author who actually gave it back to Audri Trashk Hindul Sang Gupta is now joining us. Hindul I did read out your responses. Uh you know you've also questioned out why foreigners are getting to have this kind of discourse and completely negate what is the Indian understanding of not just the seal but of our own history versus what foreigners believe. Do you think this is mostly about a foreign lens versus uh an indic lens?

[00:03:10]>> About two things. Let me take the second part of your question first.

[00:03:14]Everybody would believe that anyone ideally in an ideal world should be able to comment on anything. However, that's not the way the world exists. There is huge gatekeeping if you look at the sheer quantum of critical analysis from western authors traditionally and even today that happens about developing countries. The gaze is never reversed. M >> you you can I'm sure you can and I can of the cuff of our you know off the cuff of our head can name a range of western authors who have written about developing economies, developing countries and indeed about India but rare is the Indian author based in Indian academia based in an Indian institution of research who is ever allowed to critically analyze western societies. The numbers are very clear.

[00:04:08]Anybody can go and see the numbers. The gaze is never reversed. And I am saying until a level of balance if they criticize or critically analyze us, we should be able to critically analyze them. Now to this some people say, well, why hasn't India built the institutions?

[00:04:26]>> Obviously, there is a historical imbalance. There is a material imbalance. A lot of this of the basic material that is required for this kind of scholarship has traditionally been in the west. Now this tide is beginning to swing in China. They've already applied many of this. India is becoming more prosperous. No doubt we will also do it.

[00:04:46]But at the moment there is a huge difference. We are no India, no one from a de developing world, based in the developing world, working from the developing world can ever really turn the gaze, critical gaze and analyze western societies the way they analyze us. This is number one. Number two, let's talk about the seal.

[00:05:08]>> The fact is that the industry is still undeciphered. There are many people who have many opinions about this but final you know we still don't know exactly what the industry contains the day we know that a lot of lot of these things will be clear there is a debate some people believe I will give you an example for instance of somebody like Mahadev chakrabarti and others and I there are range of historians and scholars who have spoken about this protosha of course as you know John Marshall himself spoke about protoshiva Some others Doris Sinasan and others believe that no perhaps this could this could showcase something else.

[00:05:51]>> This is a debate. However, is this ever presented as a debate? No. It is immediately presented as oh look at these Indians always trying to prove Hindu continuity. What is the problem if this is protosha? There are many elements in the seal that suggests that this is a proto what does protoshiva really mean? some sort of imagery that later we have come to recognize with later evidence as the deity Shiva as the god Shiva. What is the problem with this? Why are people so against this John Marshall and others argument about this? Because it showcases the antiquity of Hinduism and India. And the moment you say India and Hinduism has antiquity, a lot of people have a problem.

[00:06:38]>> Why do they have a problem? I was going to come to this like this. No, no. I I wanted wanted to come to this. Why do they have a problem? Because you have also suggested that Audrey Trushk is one of those individuals who are clearly biased against Indian history.

[00:06:52]>> Please remember the history of of the kind of things this particular person has said. I I cannot say on on a national television channel what she said about Lord Ram. By the way, she absolutely faked what was actually in the translation of the text she was quoting. And the scholar who actually did that translation had to come out and say that Trush was saying something that was not true. His translation had nothing to do with this. She used a profoundly abusive word which was not even there in the translation and put it on Lord Ram. I have been noticing this about this person for a decade now. This is a repeat offender who does this purposely. This is the person who I mean there's a whole lot of things she has said but she's the person who always insists that supposedly there were Hindu terrorists so to speak who were attacking the British in the Raj. They were not revolutionaries. They were not people fighting for freedom but they were Hindu terrorists. Now one can go on and on about all kinds of >> if if you ignore this one person is there a larger case to be made of westerners not wanting Indian indicity civilizational community to be established and to be um accepted. Do you believe so?

[00:08:11]>> True. I do believe so. And I let me say this >> in scholarship. Number one I want to go back to the first point I made. There is a basic inequity. If so many people from an outside culture have the right to analyze my culture, there should be enough of from my culture based in my culture who should reverse the gates.

[00:08:31]And that's never true. It's never ever true and it's not going to be true for a long time. Number two, I think there is a fundamental problem. We only see one bunch of people and they are the dominant voice. They are the critics.

[00:08:44]They are the people who say Hinduism is is an invented religion. There is no such c no category called Hindus. But there are a lot of others I tweeted today people like you know David Lorenzen a whole range of others people like Thomas Trotman who don't agree with this people like Dilip Chakraorti there are lots of scholars who don't agree with this but this is never presented as a genuine dialogue. It is always presented as a fact that we are all quote unquote right-wing fascists and therefore we are saying Hinduism as continuity. But that's not true. This is an abuse. This is a slur. There is a genuine academic conversation. And I think we should have that genuine academic conversation. The problem is the problem is not not only what other people from other countries are saying.

[00:09:32]The Indian elite in in places like Delhi and Mumbai only present before us and have traditionally presented before us one viewpoint which is the critical viewpoint. They have never nobody everybody is very happy to talk about all kinds of people about Audrey Trushki also but do you have you ever heard of anyone talk about David Lorenzan's brilliant paper who invented Hinduism >> you know which brings us back to the point that we need more scholarship of Indians and I remember Vikram Sat who's also historian he had started his own you know uh uh society for Indic uh research into Indian history from an Indian lens uh but I want to ask you also you know there what I felt there was also a very clear uh backing of some of the claims that Pakistan has recently started to make right they've always made these claims because many of these sites like Mahanchjadaru lie in present day Pakistan but recently I've been seeing that there is a whole revisionist uh attitude in Pakistan where they are somehow claiming that these sites represent Pakistan's continuity over 5,000 years and in that context is where the Ministry of Culture tweet came the ministry of cultures tweet was very clearly a message to Pakistan appropriation when it said that you know these sites may lie in various different modern borders but they are a symbol of Indic civilizations and then Audri Trushk comes in and I see on many issues the same people trying to make grounds to take away whatever is Indian or Indic or Hindu uh also set stage for Pakistan for example to claim oh but this is also about us how is this about Pakistan at all.

[00:11:14]>> As I tweeted to somebody who wrote to me saying India is supposedly named after a Pakistani river that of course when Alexander the Great was at the banks of the Indas River. Exactly. The father of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jina was strolling on the banks of the Indas River and waved merrily clearly at uh at Alexander. You know this is a farical conversation. This is a farce and this is being pushed down our throat by vested interest and this vested interest lobby includes a whole range of people.

[00:11:50]There are institutions, there are you know academics, activists. This is a lobby. This is a anti-India lobby. This lobby exists in various formats in various places and their biggest one of the things that irritates them the most is this idea that India has antiquity and in that antiquity obviously one of the strongest elements is the element of Hinduism. If you say this immediately you will be called racial racist fascist right-wing all kinds of things. And I want to make it clear none of us who are making this argument are any of that. We are only saying let us go by the real conversation in academic terms. Let us not continue this farce that has continued about India for decades. And I again want to put to you Shivani I blame the Indian elite if it was equitable.

[00:12:43]Even the debate would be presented as debate. Did Andre Tushk present this as a debate? No. She presented it as you know this ignorant Indian ministry of culture which doesn't know anything.

[00:12:53]>> I don't know what it's talking about.

[00:12:54]and she had given a verdict on what is still up for debate, isn't it?

[00:12:58]>> This white scholar knows everything about India and will tell us the truth.

[00:13:03]That's not the truth at all.

[00:13:05]>> Even the comparisons to the uh prototype or iconography has been called out. Uh would do you want to expand on that why that comparison is could be wholly false? Each of these things Shivani please understand tomorrow one scholar can look at the same thing another scholar can look at the same thing find another detail in it and write a paper saying no no no I actually think this >> about this what we call the pashupati seal various scholars have had various interpretation these are interpretations but a large number of scholars have also had the same interpretation that this is indeed a proto version of the figure that we came to know as Shiva. So if you ever want to have a conversation about this, we have to have a proper conversation. There are people pointing out absolutely accurately that the animals that are there in this seal are all native from our part of the world.

[00:14:05]>> But can I just point out on the issue of Pakistan, can I just uh you know call out some of the statements that have been made recently? This is as recent as April 2026.

[00:14:14]uh availari the Pakistani president said Pakistan is a at a crossroads of ancient civilizations mentioning Indis Valley Gandhara and of course Mughal heritage his son Bilaval Singh Bhau was had said that Pakistan is the true custodian of the Indus civilization that civilization lies in Munjadaro in Lana I don't see any South Asian uh professors of Indic history ever rebutting uh these characters on X these are all to be found on social media won't because you see the if you have to rebut this you have to say what is the truth which is that there was no Pakistan before 1947 >> why believe or hard to accept >> and the Indian elite is far happier saying there was and people have told me this actually there was no India before 1947 then they happier than they are happy to say there was no Pakistan before 1947 this is a fundamental problem you see there's a geopolitical angle to this shivani and if you give me 10 seconds. Allow me to say this.

[00:15:15]>> Pakistan is trying to reinvent its image.

[00:15:18]>> Yes.

[00:15:19]>> To try to go closer to powers in the west who in some senses had abandoned it. Now look at the dichotomy in Pakistan. You have consistently over so many decades eliminated in statistical terms of any significance your minorities especially Hindus and Sikhs.

[00:15:39]You've almost eliminated them. Now you're claiming all these things and renaming towns and so on and so forth.

[00:15:45]>> That project has been shelled by by the way u it facs and Islamists in Pakistan. I actually did a whole story on that yesterday and uh of course the ministry of culture tweet is sitting right at the heart of that uh appropriation that is going on currently in Pakistan. And you're absolutely right. This could well be an image breakover but I don't think Pakistan will succeed in that endeavor.

[00:16:09]they can't succeed because the their core is so toxified with extremism. They cannot succeed. And also this is highly duplicitous. You're basically eliminated statistically significant minorities totally eliminated.

[00:16:22]>> And then you're claiming everything that that minority stood for or what this greater land of Bhat stood for before partition. But I have to leave it at that. Uh thanks a lot Hindul for joining us.

[00:16:31]>> Thank you. Thank you very much, Ronnie.