Mark Bonar from Phantoms to Fables

[00:00:03]Hello and welcome to Hair in the Hawthorne. My name is Kate Ray. I'm your host. And I always say that it's been a bit of a hot minute since I've been on here, but it really has. And it seems a bit longer since I've had a guest sat with me. So, for the last three, I've been sat on my own gobling on about whatever I was gobbling on about. And I'm absolutely delighted that I'm not on my own this evening that um I can introduce somebody else in into the conversation. Then I don't look slightly schizophrenic by uh by doing things. Not that I do slightly mad sometimes. So if you like anything strange, paranormal, supernatural, anything odd, weird, anything from folklore, anything from history, anything from the field of 14, then this is the place where you you want to be. Um, I always have amazing guests on who have got incredible stories within that realm of just high strangeness. And today's guest is absolutely no no different. Well, slightly different. Slightly different um because of his ultimate velvety velvety voice and that will become apparent why that's important a little later on. So I just want to introduce you very very quickly uh Mark Bonner and he's going to talk about um himself in a nutshell or not a nutshell whichever he wants to do. So thank you so much Mark for coming and sitting on the virtual couch with me this evening. How are you doing?

[00:01:24]>> I'm very well thanks kid. I'm very well indeed. Thanks very much for having us.

[00:01:28]It's uh it's um it's actually a pleasure. It really is a pleasure to because you actually I think I seem to remember you actually asked me to come on your show uh probably in my transition between falling out of love with the paranormal and and eventually getting into the folklor thing and I wasn't really probably in a quite the right place there I suppose didn't know whether I was coming or going even want to even do it again but no thanks very much for inviting me yet again and this time we are here >> we are we are and you have gone through that trans transition time and sort of come out into um I suppose into my comfort landscape as well and my kind of uh my pair of slippers landscape. So we both share that traversing the gap, don't we, between the sort of the paranormal and um folk and folk and fable and what what really interests me about you is because you're very very passionate. We had a I think we were slightly tipsy chat outside at Paramed where I was probably ranting on about something or other and you were very uh gentlemanly listening to me but we were talking about about folklore and you you were telling me about a certain case that you were you were looking into with that um and you are very passionate about it and it's so nice to meet somebody who who has that passion and that kind of joy out of uh finding folktales and retelling them. I I want to go back really um because I I know you first and foremost from from the world of paranormal. Um so I mean where did the paranormal thing start for you?

[00:03:07]>> Um it's kind of something I've always been interested in to be fair. I mean even you go I'll go back as far as being kids always like the ghosty side of things. Probably like being scared too many times. don't like being scared but like being scared if you know what I mean. [laughter] But um yeah, the um I remember we even like as you might have heard me say this before in various other things, but I've uh we even had our own what we call our horror club um when we were kids on there of Mimi Brother and a few other lads on the estate all shared a similar kind of like [sighs] I don't know um vision if you want to call it that to start this horror club out and we had to have our we make our own transfer stickers and all that kind of stuff and reading spooky stories and sending people down sending each other down dark lanes and trying to scare the wits out of each other. But um yeah, so we that kind of like always I always liked that and I always liked a few I mean brother's mate um he's my brother's mate his older brother he was a bit older than me had a couple of like um uh horror books. Uh so he had led the Hamlin the Hamlin book of horror.

[00:04:18][clears throat] I don't know if you've ever seen that one before. or it's got a big um I should have actually I should have actually had it here so I can show you. It's got a big like Dracula or vampire on the front with a steak going through his heart and various other things the book's about. I think Hamlin actually did a few other things as well.

[00:04:34]So I think they did the the Hamlin book of ghosts, Hamlin book of UFOs as well, something like that. But I only had the Hamlin book of horror.

[00:04:43]Excuse me. I got a bit of a sore throat there today.

[00:04:46]>> That's why that's why I've got a bit of a uh that's why I've got me tea on the go. That's a witch's brew. That's not a cup of tea.

[00:04:54][laughter] >> I got it. I got it out the cupboard just for just for this just for this session.

[00:05:01]>> Did [laughter] you?

[00:05:03]>> I actually got that cup from um not this I'll do this quite often kind of thing.

[00:05:07]I'll just I'll wander off into a subject and then wander back in again. Yeah, >> I got that uh I got that cup uh when I went and did Pendle Hill with the Ouija brothers at the um at Witches Galore on Pendle Hill, I think it's called.

[00:05:19]>> Oh, nice.

[00:05:21]>> There. Um yeah. So yeah, that's going see I'm going to go back there now again. So the um >> the Yeah. So growing up through teenage years and never really like I always used to like watch as we all used to do.

[00:05:35]We used to watch things like Most Haunted and Arthur C. Clark's World of M was what it was called world of mysterious whatever it was. Um and I remember as a kid as well very much like in um this it was almost like a children's ghost story uh program was called Spine Chillers.

[00:05:56]>> Um probably liked it more for the introduction animation and um and voice over that the guy had I think uh more than anything else. But they would tell you like some you'd have you'd have like a guest almost like it was almost like spooky Jackori basically. Um I mean I'm sure I don't know how old you are Kate but uh I mean I'm 54. Um so I remember Jackori. I don't know if you do.

[00:06:22]>> I'm not that far behind you. [laughter] I wasn't trying to get your age out of you.

[00:06:30]>> Um but um no. So yeah, I used to like all that stuff and then and obviously then Ghostbusters came along eventually, that fantastic film that I still love to this very day. And uh yeah, so that I mean that progressed all the way through really um up until probably obviously I used I never really used to watch watch YouTube paranormal people kind of thing, you know, like paranormal teams on YouTube.

[00:06:56]YouTube for me was something that didn't really happen until quite later on in life. I used to watch other things on YouTube like cartoons and goodness knows what else, but I never watch any paranormal people. Um, and I was about I don't know what was how old it was there now. This isn't this isn't very long ago. So, I'm probably talking back uh about a year before CO hit the first time. And uh I was talking to a friend of mine up in Nottingham that um and she was saying uh well about just about visiting paranormal places. So she says, "You want to go?" She go to the um well she when you're up here next cuz I used to go up there and see her and her husband Jez. Um when you're up here next we'll go to the um oh god there was that uh that haunted cinema.

[00:07:49]Um, I might be going back some years again now, but I think the think the same people now own the uh the Hopkins building down in Nottingham. They do like it's like a paranormal museum basically.

[00:08:04]>> Oh, the the Museum of Curiosity, >> something like that.

[00:08:08]>> Yeah.

[00:08:09]>> Yeah, >> that's the one. Um, so yeah, then I just I just happened to click on YouTube and she always says, "Have a look at on YouTube."

[00:08:17]They might have they might have well I looked at it. I actually look was looking for uh something on doing an internet search on the place and then YouTube came up to look to look at it.

[00:08:27]So I clicked on that one. Um and then I saw a few people that were at there doing the um uh doing the uh uh their investigation and it just so happened to be the Ouija brothers.

[00:08:41]Um, and I kind of like, you know, right from the get- go, I kind of liked their their spin on things, being quite well, being very honest to be fair, cuz if you've ever watched any of their stuff before, they they well, they never get they never get nothing really, [laughter] bit like me. I mean, you didn't never never really got nothing. Um, but uh, no, there was um, they so I just really liked the pair of them to be fair. And I watched a few other people there and this that and the other and I think well you know I didn't really like them. I'll not go into names and name names for the people that just blatantly like want to fake things for the sake of faking. But um I I just got on watching them and then started watching more of their stuff and more of their stuff and think I really I really like this this stuff like this honest approach.

[00:09:29]But obviously all the all the all the all all the time in the back of my mind I'm I'm thinking well I used I've watched Haunted many times before and um and they get loads of stuff so why aren't these guys getting anything but you know then you know it took me a few more years to actually realize what they were actually doing because I'm a bit slow sometimes.

[00:09:52][laughter] I >> think we're all sucked we were all sucked in by Mouse Haunted at one point.

[00:09:56]We've all got to admit it.

[00:09:58]>> I think we were. Yeah. Everyone was. So, I mean, it's a I mean, you know, say what you like about it. I mean, I I you know, I I probably dislike them now for like all the lies they probably told, but >> I'd still I'd still watch I'd still watch one of their shows.

[00:10:12]>> Even if it was just for entertainment purposes. [laughter] >> Yeah. [snorts] >> I actually remember watching the uh one of their shows. I think it was in 20 it was Halloween 2020 and in the opening credits um wasn't even credits. The creds weren't even rolling. So they p they were panning across this old dining room in the stately home. Lots of cobwebby like you know tables and chairs hanging around. Then right out the blue this chair just hurls itself through the through the screen from one side to the next. [laughter] The guy see the guy behind the camera probably Stuart. He said >> God did you see that? Come on. Look at that. [laughter] >> Oh here we go again. You know, we're laughing now, but um I I have a confession, unlike you. I mean going back to your early childhood that that to me sounds like um almost the rights of passage that we used to have you know sort of pagan rights of passage of because we haven't got those scary situations to put young young boys and men into young men into where they're going out hunting or you know they have to spend a certain amount of time in in a an isolated place and it's usually around about the ages of seven or 11 historically that um they were the passageways for young men. And it's almost like, you know, with your spooky club that that was kind of your own right of passage because you were inducing that kind of fear to see who were men, you know, see who would kind of stand up to that. Whereas you did that and kind of were facing it front on. Me as a child, I was terrified.

[00:11:52]Absolutely terrified. And I joke about most haunted. However, I didn't watch Most Most Haunted until I was 28 >> and um I decided to challenge myself to face fears in my life and I it petrified me honestly that and Ghost Adventures.

[00:12:14]I'm 28 and I'm sat there and I'd watch a couple back to back and then I'd have to watch cartoons afterwards just to laughing about that chair flinging across. If I'd have seen that, I would have been catatonic. If I'd have seen that episode back then, I'd have been catatonic.

[00:12:32]>> You're saying that?

[00:12:34]>> You said that about about watching cartoons afterwards. I remember watching things like, you know, Jaws when I was I was absolutely shocked to death and scared the crap out of me like watching Jaws.

[00:12:47]>> A couple of times it was on >> and I uh I couldn't sleep afterwards.

[00:12:50]So, I found myself reading reading a comic book or something uh just to try and like take my mind off it or watch as I say watching cartoons afterwards. So, yeah, we've all done it. It's uh take your mind off.

[00:13:01]>> I think it it is and I mean it's that whole um generation X, you know, they reckon that there is probably two things that generation X really fear and one of them is sharks and the other one is quicksand. I mean, when are we ever going to come across sharks or quicksand [laughter] >> ever? That was from the old Tarzan movie. Shulie, >> everyone that it was it was Tarzan. It was Lassie. Something always got and Skippy and stuff like that. Somebody always got stuck in quicksand. I've never seen it in my life. Never seen it in my life. Well, [laughter] >> so how how did you go from watching sort of uh getting into those because they are hugely entertaining and most haunted and for whatever people think of them now, they they were they made the basis of pretty much all paranormal TV that came afterwards. It, you know, it's it's it set a a certain standard of who was involved in the production um of of things. So, you were watching the the Ouija brothers and um found those um interesting and intriguing. Um I mean, in between times, so from being in that ghost club right the way up to watching the Ouija brothers, had you had any paranormal experiences?

[00:14:19]Um, [clears throat] I'd like to probably think that I haven't had any paranormal experiences um through all the way through that that time. I don't know, maybe, you know, like kids or young teenagers trying to like, you know, scary scare each other.

[00:14:36]I wouldn't really call call that as a paranormal experience.

[00:14:40]>> Um, I I've had a few strange waking nightmares before. Uh, I did suffer a little bit from um sleep paralysis um which is absolutely freaking petrifying if that ever happens to you.

[00:14:59]>> Yeah.

[00:15:00]>> I Jesus wept. I tell you what, I think I don't think I've ever been so scared in my entire life when you basically just can't move and um and you feel as if like you know I felt I actually felt as if I can still I can still remember there now. It was probably in my late teens and through the spit parts of me early 20s. Um, it almost felt like someone was kneeling on me back. M >> um I felt you felt pre I felt pressure on me shoulders as if it was p pushing me down into the uh into the mattress and I could hear breathing as well but I was sure that it wasn't my breathing but it probably you know having now looked at what sleep paralysis is it obviously was me that was you obviously your brain is it your brain stay your brain's awake awake but the body's still half asleep kind of thing >> basically that's what it is isn't it?

[00:15:49]Yeah. And I mean it's amazing how many people have u really strong paranormal uh experiences or perceived par paranormal uh experiences in sleep paralysis [snorts] and the two kind of can go hand in hand. So people who are having paranormal activity in the house can suffer with and and never have suffered with sleep paralysis before.

[00:16:11]I've had it twice. Um, both times in my childhood home. Um, as an adult and one was just before COVID, the last one. And it for me, I felt like I woke up, I could open my eyes, I could move my eyes, and I was like, I'm dead. You know, my first thought was, I'm I'm dead because I can't move anything. You know, I've got no I'm just totally disconnected.

[00:16:36]>> And I saw a black shadow figure at the end of the bed. And again, you know, scientifically that can be explained, but in that moment it is.

[00:16:44]>> And I was in [clears throat] a childhood childhood room that had activity when I was younger. Um, my brother experienced it. So my head was just like, I'm not sleeping with the lights off in this room anymore. You know, the lights are staying firmly on. [laughter] But it's horrendous, isn't it? Because you don't know whether you don't know whether you're breathing. You don't know how you're going to bring yourself out of that. Um, I'm on the fence whether it is fully um fully explained through science. I I I I do believe science is is a great tool, but I think that it's not um it shouldn't be a religion and it shouldn't be that like paranormal shouldn't be a religion. It shouldn't be blind faith in one or the other. I think it's a >> I like to to keep an open mind on on the two. But you never you never seen a ghost or had >> you know it was it was just the p pure kind of fright factor that you were enjoying.

[00:17:43]>> I've never I'd never I've never I can put hand on hard and say I've never seen a ghost in my entire life.

[00:17:49]>> Wow.

[00:17:50]>> Um and that's probably what actually drove me to actually start uh to start doing my own paranoral investigations. I know, but I've talked to my mom about this many times and she says that she always said that she had a me granddad's old house. My granddad's old house used to be used to be um a bigger house, but then when they bought it, it was actually knocked into two.

[00:18:16]>> Um just a wall straight down the middle basically. So when you go upstairs, you go to the end of the hallway and obviously there'd be a bedroom there, but obviously you could have actually walked down and through the ne into the next house. But my mom said a few times when she was young, she'd seen like she'd seen um apparitions or something or ghosts.

[00:18:36]You always call them ghosts, walk down there or just appear in the room sometimes at my granddad's old house.

[00:18:43]And apparently like um saw me um a long time after me granddad died kind of thing, the house eventually got sold.

[00:18:51]Um, somebody bought it. Uh, and me uncle, me dad's, um, he me mom's brother had gone up there to see the builders kind of things just to see how things were going on. And they've said they said there was some odd things happened when they were when they were when they were um, you know, doing reurbs in the place.

[00:19:09]>> You know, the radio would turn itself on now and again. I know that can probably explained away, >> but you know, things, one of the builders said that uh, things just seem to get randomly moved now and again. You know, I know he says, "I know I put one thing at the end of the day and then unless somebody's actually been in at night because obviously it's everything's locked up. Nobody else has a key except the builders cuz nobody owns it now apart from the builders have the keys and that's that." Then, you know, odd things just get moved around now and again. So, um yeah, it was quite strange, I suppose.

[00:19:42]But >> did you did you did you ever stay in that property? Were you >> Yeah. And you didn't sense anything or >> uh no I never did. Um uh stopped at both me grandparents properties. Um I mean it was in little the where me grand when we when we grand I mean mom's side lived it was in a little mining village called Cassup in County Durham.

[00:20:08]And where me dad's parents lived my other grandparents they lived in another another one actually very close to Casp.

[00:20:15]They were that's what how my mom and dad met cuz they're fairly close villages kind of thing. Um but uh yeah, so they lived in another place called Thornley.

[00:20:25]Uh which apparently uh so me mom tells me had it I've never been able to find any anything about this or cuz when she told me I said I've got there's got to be something some documented somewhere that uh there were a priest was brought in to exercise a house uh through polic activity in in Thornley at one time and I can't find anything about it know whether it was documented back then. And I mean, I can't imagine when that would be. I don't know, maybe I'm going back as far as maybe 1950s, 1960s, maybe.

[00:20:57]>> Um, but that's what that's what she told me.

[00:21:00]And me mom's like my mom's a very honest person. I mean, she she says she hasn't actually really seen anything else since. Um, and she wouldn't say she wouldn't say it for the sake of me, you know, because she knows I do that. I'm into the paranormal. you she mentioned it well before I me started getting towards paranormal investigations and things like that.

[00:21:20]>> I mean at that time I you know an exorcism on on a poltergeist case would have been uh well and truly buried if it was you know seen as a sensible village with workingclass people. It would have been something that that people would have been terrified to talk about because >> there's this whole concept of you you talk something out and you invite it in.

[00:21:42]Um, and I mean I I grew up in a mining village and >> um, it takes me a heck of a long time to coax any bits of stories out of of the community who've lived here forever.

[00:21:54]It's just like, >> yeah, >> pit pit men don't talk about that kind of thing, you know, and >> once, you know, you start pulling pulling the right threads and people start admitting, oh yeah, you know, um, there was things that went off at the pit or there was things that, you know, went off in people's houses, but people just literally turned a blind eye. So it's not surprising that something like that >> would be buried.

[00:22:15]>> So you went on to um uh did you start investigating on your own? Did you start going out with different teams? How how did that that kind of side of things transpire for you? [snorts] >> Um long and short of it was I I start after watching the Ouija brothers a lot started finding other other teams that worked in a similar kind of vein or how they did. I got on quite talking to to to Ste and Griff um just on messenger uh about various things and I told him I was interested and he he says well he says the only thing the only way you're ever going to find out for yourself is if you end up doing it yourself. So, I looked up a few places um and uh found a um found the first place ever went to was um was called Christmas Church uh which is near where in uh the northwest side of um Harford.

[00:23:15]>> Mhm.

[00:23:16]>> Um where spelled W A R E.

[00:23:20]Um, >> yeah. So, that's I found that place and that's and I I found it because of its folklore stories to be fair.

[00:23:28]>> Mhm.

[00:23:29]>> has like you know ghost stories and folklore stories and so it's just a ruin. It's a media it's it's a ruin of a church basically in the graveyard still there. Um but you know the the the church is apparently nearly a thousand years old. I think it's like >> 10 1086 or thereabouts when it first got put up. Uh there's nothing much left of it there now. It's you know the majority of it actually got taken the majority of it actually got got taken down um after after a couple of centuries and uh and it was the building material sorry was used to build the new church in um further down the road in in Thundidge which is another great name for a village.

[00:24:13][laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:24:15]>> So did you did you go there on your own?

[00:24:17]Did you go and just thought >> I'm I'm I'm just going to do this just going to investigate it. Now I mean it sounds like you're definitely ering on the side of skeptic >> um >> sort of the scientific critical thinking side of things with with uh investigation. Did you take any kit with you? Did or did you just go and to see what you could figure out?

[00:24:40]>> Well, I [snorts] went during the day to be fair. Um.

[00:24:43]>> Mhm.

[00:24:44]>> Just to have a cuz I'd never been there before and I knew it was a bit of a walk from where you parked the car. It was about a two-mile walk, mile and a half maybe from where from where you park the car and you walk down through the lanes because it's right in the countryside and there's nothing else around it. Um apart from maybe a farm on the on the on the ridge on the high ridge. But uh yeah, so I just I went down there during the day uh on a maybe like late afternoonish mid mid to late afternoon.

[00:25:11]There was a few people obviously there.

[00:25:12]It's got a it's got a public footpath that runs along near it and so you get people coming past walking dogs and going out for family walks and such like. Um and yeah, so I just stopped there for like maybe 3 hours or something like that. Just took in took in the scenery. Uh I had a K2 meter with me. Not that I actually use them anymore because I don't want to believe in them.

[00:25:33][laughter] >> Flashy gadgets.

[00:25:36]>> Flashy gadgets. [laughter] If if Justin if Justin sees this, he'll be he'll be happy that I'm now saying that. [laughter] >> Oh, he hates me with my uh with my flashy gadgets. Bless him. And I I do tend to wind him up at any given opportunity.

[00:25:53]>> Um yeah, flashy gadgets. So, um I I find it um I find it really intriguing and I think uh from what you've been saying as well that you get two kinds of people who get into the paranormal. You you and and I often forget that there is an incredibly emotive side to the paranormal because you're dealing with the dead.

[00:26:19]>> Yeah.

[00:26:20]>> And you get those people who get into the paranormal because in fact there's three I think there's three types of people. So there's those people who want answers because of grief or um having lost somebody. Um there are those who have had a an experience that they want explaining.

[00:26:39]And I think from what you've been saying, you probably fall into the curious camp.

[00:26:46]>> That sounds really bad, doesn't it? The curious camp that you know the camp of of being highly curious about. And it it it fascinates me what then keeps that momentum going of that curiosity. So you've been to this church, your K2 meter, I'm I'm figuring didn't go off and didn't give you the the enlightening conversation that we all want from the K2 meters. Um so what then kind of spurred you on to think, okay, then I want to do this again and I want to do it maybe differently. [snorts] Um, again, it was just I go back to the stories. Um, so I'm I'm trying to after being there and not and not finding anything in particular and probably being a little bit too scared to stop after dark. Um, if I'm honest, [laughter] um, with it being me first thing, me first outing, so to speak, um, I went, uh, after went back home, I looked at, uh, started researching a few more places and I found this, uh, this place uh, on the other again probably about maybe 20 20 minutes, half an hour away from me um, called uh, called Devil's Bridge, which N had uh great name of course but not to be confused with the devil devil's bridge that's actually in Wales.

[00:28:09]>> Mhm.

[00:28:10]>> Um but um yeah some great stories and some great history as well. And after read reading through it all first before before decided to go there. I'm thinking yeah I really like the stories attached to that place. I'll uh I need to go and see this place. Uh eventually found it again. went by myself and actually went this time at um I did a wrecky first uh during the day. Uh I think it was the previous weekend and then um the next weekend I decided to go by myself. It was it was getting on for like dusk this time kind of thing. So I'm being brave and stopping out thinking yes. Got me big boy pants on and uh and uh you see yeah and then I started set me set up me tripod. got a still I was still using me phone to film by this time. Um set on me tripod and um and started explaining a few things about the about the history of the place and the stories that surround it and then um it's basically just a path uh like a sunken it's a sunken path with with builtup sides. um some that as you get further down the uh the path as well. Uh it is the sides have been built up by stonework. Um then you get to the and then you get to this uh this the bridge itself which is uh which is quite it's all in brick work but it's very old. It's very old brick work. I would imagine probably it's been there since probably Victorian times I would think maybe a bit longer. Um yeah, and just it was just there being there and probably probably got attacked by several angry feeasants during the night. Um which scared the crap out of me when they do that that that all of a sudden squawk.

[00:29:59]>> Yeah.

[00:30:00]>> But um yeah, but people were saying like when I made the video for it, people were saying, "You're nuts going out yourself. You don't you know nobody goes out by themsel especially in the middle of the night and uh and it's dark.

[00:30:10]You're in wooded area. you don't really know the area very well which I didn't know the area very well but I don't know it was just maybe maybe the you know the adrenaline or the wanting to actually find something you know cuz I I I was I was a believer pretty much I was a pretty much pretty much full-on believer even though I was very curious about it you know and you obviously see very rational with your thoughts but I was still a believer and in my mind I was going to in my mind I was going to see things and that was and that was and that was probably what I was probably more scared about >> but again second one down and I never did apart from getting scared out scared scared out me wits by the wildlife more than anything else [laughter] um yeah and that's and went on from there I went to an old chapel at Minsden after that which is uh which has got its own uh great great little stories I think the uh the uh the Peter Peter Underwood from the ghost club uh he'd actually done a piece there in the uh in the administ in chapel. I'd read his I'd read his book on it, uh his passage on it in the book, uh which I found quite interesting. So, I went there by myself.

[00:31:20]Um again, um you're out in the middle of the sticks in the middle of nowhere.

[00:31:25][laughter] Just like when I think about it now, I'm thinking, why did I ever do that? Out in the middle of nowhere, anybody could have followed me there.

[00:31:33]>> Um you just don't know, do you? Forget the dead. What about the bloody living?

[00:31:37]>> Exactly. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're looking that way for for an apparition. There's a serial killer coming up behind you that way.

[00:31:44]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:45]>> Yeah.

[00:31:46]>> I mean, it's nuts when you think about it.

[00:31:48]>> Uh and I think not long after that, um I I was talking to you might have seen Steve in some of my my videos. [snorts] Um he said he so I decided I was talking to him about it at one time because my daughter and his daughter used to play football together. So that's why I kind of got to know Steve. [snorts] Um, and I said to him, listen, I'm doing this doing this now. I've got this like channel. I've got par doing paranormal investigations, but like, you know, it go it more to do with like, you know, the history and the and the and the stories that surround the kind of the location. I says, "Oh," he says, "I'm thinking about going back again to Cole Christmas Church." He says, "Uh, would you be interested in going?" And I told him what I told him what it was. He says, "I'd love to see that place." Um, he says, "I can't believe something like that's even in Harfordshire." Because, you know, it's just unbelievable what you find once you start looking.

[00:32:45]>> Yeah.

[00:32:45]>> As you, as you probably well know yourself. Um but no it's um so we went back there again and then we you know we did a few things together and then I started meeting more people when the when the videos started gaining a bit of traction and eventually met up with the Ouija brothers as well which was like a bit of a a night a cherry on the a cherry on the cake to eventually meet them after being like you know watching them for you know watching them for like a year kind of thing and then meeting up with them that was grand. Um but then yeah just seemed to go from there really met more and more people obviously then obviously I'd met yourself as well and and and Laurian and uh and and um John and Neil from Paralle Parctivities just just some and that's I think in the end it for me it became quite a socialable quite a social thing.

[00:33:34]Um you starting to meet these like and these these people have have become friends friends for life.

[00:33:41]>> Mhm. It's just uh it's just it's just been, you know, and I know I don't do the paranormal stuff anymore and and and they kind of don't do it either as well to be fair. I mean, Laurian still does, but she never doesn't do Investigate anymore.

[00:33:54]>> Mhm.

[00:33:55]>> Um not that I've seen anyway.

[00:33:58]>> So, what what I mean because that that was Dead Cold Tales. Have I got that right? The >> It started off the YouTube started off as Dead Cold Paranormal. Yeah.

[00:34:06]>> Um, and then it progressed into just being Dead Cold and then I changed it again to Dead Cold Tales because it was wanted to do more to do with like, you know, stories about the place and then and then it just kind of went um >> cuz I was just kind of like fed up of uh of investigating. Um, and you know, fair enough there was like, you know, fed up of invest I wasn't fed up of investigating.

[00:34:29]I think the uh I think the paranormal buzz for me went and I'd lost interest. I remember being the last place I ever really investigated and I and I began to film was uh was um was it called?

[00:34:51]Oh god, I can't remember it there now, but it's in Bedford. Um and I took Beardo came down with DOSA Paranormal Investigators and Nick from Walking the Weird.

[00:35:03]Uh, which unfortunately Nick doesn't do anymore there now, which is which is a terrible shame because I I thought she was bloody marvelous.

[00:35:10]>> Um, uh, so yeah, they came down and I started filming with them. I brought me own stuff, started filming and and I just kind of lost interest straight away. Within about 10, 15 minutes, I remember talking to Dale about it kind of thing. And he says he says, "You're not going to fil you're not going to film this one, are you?" I said, "No, I'm not." I says, "I think I'm probably done now." I says, "No, you know, and I en I really enjoyed the night with them with that with that lot.

[00:35:37]It was a really good night. We really enjoyed the uh the experience we have of being in in such beautiful ruins and I've been there before myself several times." So, they came out to see me and I took them there as a as a place that I think they'd enjoy [snorts] and had a great time. And I went another few and I went another few investigations with Karen um and and all of her crowd as well. And I didn't bother filming. I tried to film one time and again I just thought, "Ah, I'm trying to film them again. What's the point? I'm not I'm not interested in doing it." Just pack that rubbish away.

[00:36:09]Let's just try and enjoy the investigation for what it is. Um and and then I didn't I think I did I did another one and that was it really. That was for me. I just kind of like fell out love with investigating all together.

[00:36:22]>> Didn't and I've never been and I've never been back and done and done it since unfortunately.

[00:36:27]>> I mean it does it does happen. I mean it's not a It's a story that I mean I I particularly have heard time and time again. Um you know for for different reasons people sort of just falling out of love with and and losing the the the the passion for um [snorts] the the investigative side of things whether that's to do with a lot of the times to do with politics. Um but sometimes it can just get you like that. I mean I go out uh events regularly. Um I'm I'm team lead on that and there are multiple times in the year I question you know do I want to do this because I I am passionate about pushing boundaries you know whether that's on a scientific side or whether that's on a woowoo side. I I I'm the kind of kid that would put my finger in a plug socket just to find out whether my hair stood up, you know. So I that's me in the paranormal world.

[00:37:23]>> Don't try that at home, kids.

[00:37:25]Yeah, don't try that at home. No, because I would I would be on the receiving end of somebody investigating them, wouldn't I? I'd come back as the apparition. Um, and I I get frustrated.

[00:37:35]I get frustrated with the formula of it all. And I get frustrated with I think the [snorts] disparacy between um between fractions of people within the paranormal that um I think stop things from expanding. So those who are saying you know it's scientific and we've got to look at this and there's this theory and blah blah blah blah and it it's not ghosts it's not spirits of the if everybody actually clubed together and said right let's start devising the the most ultimate experiments that we can to see if we can elicit some kind of you know it doesn't have to be datadriven kind of communication but just something that we can all go you know this is making it more real um >> and so I totally feel you with that I totally feel that it gets to a stage where it's just like >> how many times can you kick a dead donkey, you know, before you realize that it's not going to get back up and and uh you know, >> and start walking again.

[00:38:35]>> How many times can you talk to walls and talk to thin air without getting any kind of response?

[00:38:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> you know, and I'm happy for people that actually get to think that they get their responses kind of thing. You know, that's that's entirely up to them. Some people think by, you know, the gadgets that go off and, you know, if they're getting there, if they're getting a pleasure out of it, then so be it.

[00:38:55]>> I don't begrudge them whatsoever. And if they're enjoying it, more power to them because >> Yeah. And like >> at the end of the day, that's what we do it for. It's a hobby.

[00:39:04]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:05]>> If you're not enjoying your hobby, then you probably shouldn't do it.

[00:39:09]>> Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And like you said, there is a massive social element to it as well, you know, >> and I see that from from doing the events. Um, and in terms of evidence with that, it's uh it's the non flash of gadgets. I I very rarely get excited about um evidence if you like when when I'm on events, whether I'm I'm leading it or whether I'm on somebody else's event because there's so many people there that you never know. and you know devices sometimes I get excited if there's a sequence of stuff that goes off in a flurry. Yeah, >> but I was having quite recently one of those moments of talking to a wall, talking to the ether and it's like trying to jockey things for people as well who were there paying the money and and you know wanting the experiences >> and um this always happens the very rare occasion when something does happen.

[00:40:02]We're in a prison. Um, we'd been hearing shuffling noises, which, you know, you just think, I don't know what that is.

[00:40:08]And doors started slamming down the other end of of one of the corridors.

[00:40:13]So, I grab grab my stuff as quickly as I can and I'm bolting in that direction going, "Come on. You know, this is it's happening down here." And I turn around and they're all like, "We're not moving." It's like, "You've paid your money. Come on.

[00:40:28]Let's go and find out what this door slamming is." Um, but I can never tell.

[00:40:32]And I think that's what frustrates me on on those. And it's very rare that I get the opportunity to investigate a place that I know is haunted or has a a long haunted history without crowds of people being around. And that that is is frustrating.

[00:40:49]Do you think do you think there would be any one thing or series of things that would kind of get you back into the paranormal side of things? Do you think you'd ever jump back into that?

[00:41:02]>> Um, I don't know. I think uh well, again, if I ever went out and did an investigation and and I and in my eyes, I found something that was that really tweaked my curiosity enough to actually like think, hm, what was that? Um, I mean I I don't think I don't think and and I do say obviously my time I I'm that was probably a wrong thing for me to say at the beginning of the video saying that my that I've never seen anything or never witnessed anything. I have heard many things >> that have made me think Christ that was a bit strange. Um I wonder where that came from. Um and you know you try to make it in and controlled environment as much as you possibly can. Um I I had a very strange experience at um with uh when I when Laurian and I went to uh the Hill House in um near Ross and Y. I love that place. Um I definitely put that in my top three of places I've been to.

[00:42:10]It's just got a vibe all of its own.

[00:42:12]It's not like, you know, it's a it's a great looking place, I must say. But um but it's just got like, you know, it's got it's got a vibe about it. I don't know. Maybe it's just the deco inside.

[00:42:20]Maybe it's just the the very eccentric owner.

[00:42:24][laughter] Um, but yeah, there was some I've been there a couple of times and got very strange vibes and and and not so much on the night, but I've gone back over the footage and I'm thought thinking, well, where on earth's that come from? found something on the uh on the on on the mic or nothing nothing ever visual but I've heard things on there and I remember obviously there was I don't ever seeing the video when me when me and Lori were there by ourselves and we're playing cards by the fireplace and um and she said you hear that lady's voice and I said no that was you um she says no and I I even got Dale to have a look at the footage because I had the camera on And he says that that female sounding voice. He said even he says I don't think that came from Laurian. He said because her mouth wasn't moving even at the same time at that as that as that noise came out.

[00:43:25]>> You know you know and Laurian even says herself. She says, "I would never ever, you know," >> he says, "Because we know we we've known each other for a lot of years now, Laurian and I, and we trust each other with what we do or when we used to do the kind of like investigations.

[00:43:40][clears throat] So, she'd never fake anything, that's for sure." Um, but yeah, it was just a very strange thing.

[00:43:45]And the the thing is about that place without going into too much detail there is ev not as much evidence people have said in the past that there is a copycat um type entity there um a very old a very old entity that can copycat certain things and even like make you make it make you make it can make it can it can make itself sound like you like I could or like Laurian could or like somebody else could like a mimic if that's the word.

[00:44:22]>> Yeah.

[00:44:22]>> Yeah.

[00:44:23]>> So read into that what you will. Uh but it was a very good experience that uh that I've had on several occasions at Hill House. M >> and that that kind of goes nicely with kind of the second part of >> what we're going to be talking about because um Hill House and and particularly MMA and surrounding area absolutely steeped with folklore >> and we have this kind of merging don't we of I I've spoke to um to a few people about Hill House and about my my thoughts on on what's going there and very much sort of traverses into that into that folklore folklore world. [gasps] And it sounds like with the paranormal, it was almost like it was the narratives and the the tales of the places that were, you know, pulling you in because you were going to those places like the Devil's Bridge that had >> that kind of real deep connection with with uh folklore stories?

[00:45:22]>> Yeah. Did that seem like a really easy transaction then or was it something that you kind of had to separate the two or um h how did that transaction go for you?

[00:45:33]>> Um so from moving to paranormal to folklore for me it was always like quite an easy um transition or transaction whatever you want to call it. Um because thinking about it and you know obviously we we we've been talking about it there tonight and you've mentioned it just there that was what for me visiting these places and the stories about these places that I that probably drew me there in the first place not because somebody told me oh by the way if you go there you'll see a headless horseman or something like that. Um, it was more the stories and um and and and the history of the place to be fair.

[00:46:15]>> I've always said this, give me uh give me give me stone and give me all stone and timber over over bricks and mortar any day.

[00:46:23]>> Yeah, definitely. So [snorts] I mean f folklore is something it's like I think intrinsically I don't think there's any culture that can step away and say I know um when that first kind of entered into my life because it is everything from your family's folk history isn't it you know the stories that you get passed down about your grandparents like one one of our famous ones is that we're related to Dick Turpin you know that's part of our family folklore So we're all it's all kind of within our sort of lexican before we we even reach an age where we we can distinguish the the two. [snorts] Um and it sounds like when you were younger that that kind of formulated >> [snorts] >> uh a lot around the kind of uh scare factor if you like because I'm sure you would have come across lots of um motifs of of of folklore. So that coming back in and revisiting it was did you start um looking at folklore from a standpoint of I know that tale or I know nothing about this? Did you did you sort of beline for ones that you'd heard of and were quite familiar with or have you been kind of squirreling around for for stories that you you possibly hadn't heard of before?

[00:47:43]>> Um I I like to squirrel around for for stories. Um, I don't really know because I'm as as you as you know. I mean, I live in I live in Harrier in the in the south of England. I'm not from here originally. Um, I'm from Durham in the northeast of England. So, I know stories from around there, but having never lived there now for goodness knows how many years. Um, I know mom me mom still lives there and and me stepdad and uh and I go and I will be going back up and see them. So, I think when I go up there, I might actually visit a few stories when I go back up to Durham around the around there. I mean, it's got some fantastic old stories around Durham. It really has. But, um, it's been been a very, very old city as well.

[00:48:26]Um, but yeah, so scrolling around for uh for for stuff down here has been the one thing that I did. and actually did end up buying. I bought some like um >> I bought some folklore maps of three counties cuz I live we live in the three count I live very close to the border of like three counties. So I'm in Harfordshire the the uh the Bookinghamshire border is like five miles down the road and maybe northwards um and Bedfordshire is probably only about maybe 10 15 mile away. Uh so I'm right kind of like on the border between three. So, I bought I bought those three counties folklore maps and uh and it just went on from there. I know at the end of like, you know, the uh the the paranormal stuff when I started making a few uh when I'd started making a few folklore videos and I kind of I it was so that was something new for me and a bit of a different direction and I really enjoyed it to be fair, something a bit fresh, especially when I went back to Durham and I I revisited my childhood. the lamp worm story was which is >> I know like I probably I probably droned on that video quite a lot of the times reminiscing about childhood dapness and stuff like but that was good fun for me that one I really enjoyed um skimming stones and stuff like that but uh it was um but yeah that again that that was a good one but obviously then I found that other that other great one down here um the tale of uh the tale of Pier Shunks in the u which was probably my second off last video I ever made on the uh on the old channel. Um was it that when he was like you know it's quite similar story really to the lantern worm know the the lantern worm was more of a snaky creature this was a dragon um and pierced air and and again that is uh that is over in uh the far side of Harper uh in a little village called oh god what the hell was it called there now you put me on I put myself on the spot >> yeah I [laughter] have >> I can't remember it can't remember it um I I'll I'll I'll I'll probably post >> it'll come to me. I'll and I'll probably post the the video anyway at some point in uh over the next like few weeks.

[00:50:43]>> But uh yeah, and then obviously bringing bringing it right up to uh right up to the beginning um finding the one uh over in um again over in Harfordshire uh about the devil in the boot. I mean >> yes, >> that's I mean I just as soon as I read that I'm thinking where the devil in the All I did is putting the putting it put into a search engine forklaw tales of Harper and then uh and then this odd one come up about the uh about this this devil in a boot. I'm thinking gez what's what's that all about? A devil in a boot. So I just started researching the story [snorts] and um thinking well this place ain't too far away from me. It's actually it's a it's only half an hour away from me. Um it's actually not it's actually it's in Bookinghamshire, not not at Harfordshire, pretty much directly north of where I am. Um and that what a great story and obviously something you can actually go and see with the pump and the um and the uh and it pops the uh pops the devil out of the boot. I mean, what more would you I mean, it's just that's just that's that's there is like the epitome of folklore tales for me. I'm smiling because I I have um I've recently watched that video that you did on it which was absolutely brilliant. Um but that that bit where you pumping it and you going give it some willy lad. So you pumping this pump and it was like um can you remember Jim Henson's the storyteller?

[00:52:10]It was >> big. Yes.

[00:52:13]>> He he used Oh, you've got to watch them.

[00:52:15]Just get them up online. They're absolutely brilliant. And there was one about um uh they're all global stories, folk tales. [clears throat] And there's one about uh getting these devils into a bag.

[00:52:29]>> And I expected this devil when you're pumping to come up and it literally looks like one of these Jim Henson muppets as it comes up and it it fair made me smile that I did. I mean, one of one of the things that struck me about um um talking about how how you put that together and uh one of the things that I particularly liked about it because I think that the um the danger is with folklore is that it can go very much into a a dry academic uh dusty, you know, library type um angle where you people deal with it like they would deal with Yeah.

[00:53:10]>> And we forget that it is um it's bic and it's it's something that's enriching and emotive for a community and for people and you very much get that over that it's very personal and very personable and um you know it has to have that cheeky element. It has to have the element of for me of somebody saying you know I'm telling this from from my heart and I may get you know for me folk law you should almost get little bits wrong and and sort of absorb little bits to make it yours because that's the beauty of it this story.

[00:53:48]>> It becomes yours in that moment and it very much does on that video. It was lovely to watch. It was really really nice. So >> go out and watch it if if if people out there haven't seen it. Go out and watch.

[00:53:58]Is it your is it your first one? I know you've done you've redone some narrative, haven't you, from previous investigations, but >> was that the very first one that you put on table?

[00:54:09]>> Yeah, the very first one. Yeah, the very first one just called The Devil in the Boot. Um Yeah. Yeah. And I then I released a few audio tales that I did from uh from uh from from old [clears throat] and then I just about 3 or 4 days ago I'll put up like I put up the lantern worm one on the uh on the on the on the page as well.

[00:54:30]>> But hopefully this weekend I'm getting out to start filming a new story um that I found >> which so this is the way an exclusive for yourself. [laughter] >> Wow.

[00:54:45]Can you give it can you give us a tiny clue tiny clue of what what that might be?

[00:54:49]>> Yeah. Well, it's the story is going to be about an alchemist uh how their lie how they're an alchemist and a sweet shop owner and a brewery how they all collide.

[00:55:06]>> That's interesting. I've I have not seen I've seen clips of or snippets of I mean somebody may have done it but I've seen how this story of this Harper alchemist uh called John Kellerman um I've read I've read the story like all folklore tales they're only short so I'm thinking of like it's a short story how can I actually um I researched the story how how can I make this a bit longer from say 5 10 minutes.

[00:55:39]I kind of want want it to be about like you know 15 to 20 max. That's so I need to incorporate something else into it.

[00:55:44]It's going to it's going to let you know. So there's a slight continuation of the the two stories of the sweet shop owner and John Kellerman do cross over >> in life after death kind of thing. Um, and then they and then it go and then the next part of the story you'll go into the sweet shop owner and then the next part of the story you'll go back to the brew the brewery that is 10 minutes up the road from me.

[00:56:12][laughter] >> I'm intrigued. I'm absolutely intrigued.

[00:56:16]Definitely.

[00:56:17]>> There's a link there there's a there's a link there a steady link that links all three things.

[00:56:24]>> I mean that you do get that as well, don't you? in in um especially stories that are uh within a county, you'll get the same story which has been um you know taken into another part of the county and yeah >> it changes to to suit that that particular landscape and and it kind of gets shifted around. I I often thought of because I I lived in Booking Bookinghamshire for a while and um I I I've always been into to to folklore and different tales and Bookinghamshire and Bedfordshire I've lived in Bedfordshire as well um just seem to be really devoid really devoid you have to so dig deep to find to find these stories I mean one of them I don't know whether you've come across it um in Bedfordshire [snorts] is Uh, Pancake Hill.

[00:57:18]>> No, not heard of that one.

[00:57:20]>> So, the um I I won't tell you too much if you want to go and have a look. It's publicly accessible uh Pancake Hill, but it's about a witch on Pancake Day who lives in the hill.

[00:57:31]>> Yeah. And um basically up and I think it was up until the 70s this they may have res resurrected it um over the uh the last sort of 20 years but the kids were given pancake day afternoon off to go and find the witch.

[00:57:48]So the local primary schools would go into Pancake Hill to find the witch. You you ought to look it up. It's it's a lovely little folk tale.

[00:57:54]>> Oh you need to find that one >> don't you? And the thing is trying to find out what the ounce of story is going off there. You know, it's just like, you know, how because I I I assume that you do it as well. You try and unpick and think, where on earth did that come from? You know, what >> Yeah.

[00:58:11]>> What what did that mean back then that we're missing out on? because all of these tales were, you know, staying away from water or, you know, not jumping over a cliff edge or not going into the woods at night or but this whole Pancake Hill thing for me was just like this is just weird and I love it and I don't understand it, but look it up. That that was a nice one. Um, but there there was a couple there's also a church in Bedford um that I think you'd be interested in that um there's two stories that are very very close by. One of them is the um the actual you know my brain's gone where they have the bells. The belfree >> um is not part of the church. So the church they're meters apart and it there was a story about the devil coming down and saying you're not building the two together and kind of sat on the belfry so they couldn't but the church up to the belfry and not far away from there is um there's uh Neolithic uh parts of a stone circle and it's like but I had to so I had to dig so hard to find. Yeah.

[00:59:25]>> I mean, I don't know because you're not that far from, like you say, from the Bookinghamshire border.

[00:59:30]>> Yeah.

[00:59:31]>> I mean, how are you having to really troll to get to get stuff in those three counties or >> um Well, those folklore maps that I've got um seem to point to there'll be a point of reference on the map. Uh either it'll like have a little dragon on it or something like that or it'll have like a little witch or it'll have like a little something like something on there anyway.

[00:59:51]>> And then so I'll look at that. doesn't say it doesn't say anything else about it really. Um and then so I'll I'll go and find out on the internet what I can find out about that said little town that's anywhere near it. [snorts] >> Um [clears throat] which is what I did do for the um for the legend of P Shunks uh which is just a superb name. And even like there was a comment on that video as well when I put it out the a guy had said he says I live near there and he says I have never heard that tale before.

[01:00:20]>> Yeah. Um, so it it's just I think you just got to do some digging to be fair. I mean, that one did take me some digging to be fair.

[01:00:29]I I >> went back there a few times thinking I'm I'm not happy with that. I've need to do some more research on that one because that's not the place where I think it might have been or this that and the other. And I eventually found I eventually found the uh the the well I don't think anybody really really knows where P Shs's mansion was, but there is a place on the outside of this village uh which has like a a moat.

[01:00:56]You can see it's been a dug mode. Uh, and it's called, it's actually, look at the map, the map, and it took me a while to find this on the map reference on various other like little ordinance survey maps, older ones. It's called Shons's place. [laughter] And all it is is just like totally overgrown field, >> trees in the middle of it and everything. And um, and this mat that goes around the outside. It's like square sections. It's weird.

[01:01:25]How bizarre. How bizarre. [snorts] >> So, final couple couple of questions because we're we're actually getting up to an hour.

[01:01:32]>> Oh, wow.

[01:01:34]>> I know. I know. Blown by. That's gone crazy fast. I think what we'll do is I'll have you back on when couple couple of >> more videos deep and um >> we should have a folklore exchange. some kind of like um you know how they do in rap battles where they kind of slam down some bars and I'll go have you heard about this one and we'll see who can get the weirdest folk tale out there. Are you up for that?

[01:02:00]>> Top Trumps.

[01:02:01]>> Yeah, that would be brilliant, wouldn't it? Well, mine's got a witch, a ghost, and a fairy. What's yours got?

[01:02:06][laughter] >> Oh, that would be funny. So, la last final two questions.

[01:02:13]So, um, why do you think in general folklore is important, um, to keep alive and why is it important to you?

[01:02:23]>> Um, I think it's to definitely keep alive. Uh, because I just to find these stories, I personally think to find these stories and once you've researched them, it it puts a smile on your face.

[01:02:38]>> Yeah, >> it does. And you're thinking that is a great story. I just loved I love I love going through that. I love researching it. Um even though it might only be short I the most folklore tales are not not epically long anyway.

[01:02:54]>> You sometimes have to like add things to them that you think may have actually happened or may not have even happened to try and like you know to to bump them out a little bit. Um, but yeah, I just uh I I I just think because they actually they made it made me happy reading them and that's and that and that was the was the best thing. Puts a little rise smile on your face or even makes you chuckle.

[01:03:18]>> Yeah. [laughter] It also I I think it also it connects you with place that you live in a lot more, doesn't it? because you you you feel like you have an understanding and knowledge of the landscape of maybe people who used to live there and um you know it it gives I mean Nottinghamshire is I've said this time and time again I always believe that it was the most devoid uh simply because we're overshadowed by Robin Hood you know it's [clears throat] um it's such such a huge global legend that everybody knows Nottingham Shafat So, [gasps] um, and I, you know, I'm I I I'm quite proud of the Robin Hood thing, but I was a bit agrieved, um, that, you know, we didn't have, we had spooky paranormal tales and stuff that, you know, everybody everybody knew about when we were kids, but anything like, you know, I I would have loved a devil's bridge or, you know, a fairy pool or, >> but there's more and more sort of coming out and bubbling to the surface. And there seems to be this renaissance, doesn't there, with with folklore and wanting to reconnect >> with all these stories. Um, and I think there's a need within that for human connection as well, >> you know, because um, I I know that there's pubs now around here and you should do this. You have to do you have got such the voice to do this. There's pubs that are setting up uh folktale nights >> where it's like, you know, the old, you know, um, uh, open mic nights for playing guitars and stuff. They're now doing it with like bardic nights where people will just go and and tell tales while people are having a party. You should so set one of those up.

[01:05:02]>> The thing is, I mean, this might surprise you, K, but I'm not a natural reader. I know obviously in my in my narrative stories as well, there's a lot of editing goes on there. That's for sure. I can guarantee you that.

[01:05:13][laughter] >> No, no, no. This is not this. This is people are um the prowess is to do with the fact that they don't read >> that they remember the bare bones of the tale and then they make it their own and they kind of literally embellish it and they will put you know >> uh bells and whistles on it to to draw people into into that fireside. And that's how folk tales would have been you know it wouldn't have been read. It would have been oral. It would have been. You've got You've got to do it. I can see you doing that. Give me a couple of years and you'll be uh holding court in your local pub telling all these tales. [laughter] >> As long as I'm dressed up like Edmund Black added, that's fine.

[01:05:53]>> That would be genius. Genius. You've got to do it now. You've got to do it.

[01:05:59]>> I am going to have you back on, but I don't u I think we could we kind of topheavy on the on the paranormal.

[01:06:06]>> Yeah. and we could have really gone into the folk law. Like I say, I'm going to let you get um get a few more um videos under your belt. So, where can people find you? And um how often do you put out and put that sounds really wrong, doesn't it? How often do you put how often do you put your videos out? Oh god, I'm going to shut up now. So, where people where can people find you to start off with? Mostly you can find the stuff that I put out on YouTube um under Fork and Fable. Um uh there's links on me social um bits as well. So I've got like Instagram under the same name. Uh which is actually just a continuation of the Dead Core Tales one really. I just swapped the names on those. The the YouTube channel is a brand new thing. So the two that can be entirely separate from my old paranormal stuff and then and then and now the the folklore stuff's two separate channels altogether. Um, but yeah, Facebook as well. And so that's it. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, FK and Fable.

[01:07:06]>> So if anybody's got any weird folk stories that they want to sort of throw your way and say, "Have you heard of this one? you okay with people sort of contacting you and uh >> yeah by all means direct message me if you need to direct message me through any of those Instagram or uh Facebook shoots and uh yeah pedal me a story please >> that's a brilliant way to finish pedal me a story [laughter] absolutely brilliant thank you so so much for coming and talking to me it's been an absolute pleasure and it's >> it's just absolutely flown by it's absolutely flown by which has been it's it's been really good so um and I hope you'll come back.

[01:07:46]>> Thanks very much indeed.

[01:07:48]>> Yeah, let's do let's do that. Um, uh, folk law smackdown sort of Septemberish autumn time, you know.

[01:07:55]>> Yeah, when when when everybody's got the love >> I'll bring for I'll bring me big form finger.

[01:08:00][laughter] >> Oh, that would be funny. We've got to do it now, haven't we? We've said it. We've put it out there. We've got to do it.

[01:08:07][laughter] >> All right. Thank you so much, Mark. And I shall speak to you very soon.

[01:08:12]>> All right. Take care.