The State Security Agency (SSA) faces significant challenges in protecting South Africa from organized crime, which has escalated into a multi-dimensional threat undermining national security, economic stability, and democratic governance. The debate highlights the need for modernizing intelligence systems, strengthening anti-organized crime strategies, implementing e-vetting systems, and establishing the National Center for Intelligence Coordination (NCIC) to break down institutional silos. Key concerns include the contamination of the criminal justice system, political interference in intelligence operations, and the critical need for sustained investment in intelligence capabilities to combat sophisticated criminal networks operating across borders.
Mini Plenary: Budget Vote 8, Department of National Treasury, 22 May 2026Added:
There will now be an opportunity for silent prayer or meditation.
Please be seated.
The secretary will read the order.
Deote on vote number eight, National Treasury State Security Agency appropriation bill, bill 4, 2026.
>> I now invite to the podium the honorable minister in the presidency.
Honorable House chairperson the chairperson of the joint standing committee on intelligence in absentia.
Members of the joint standing committee on intelligence who are present today the acting director general of state state security agency ambassador Tony Gab Musimang the acting coordinator of national intelligence uh committee Dr. Gando the top management of the SSA, management of the OIC, representatives of the OIG.
Honorable members, the rapidly changing global landscape is not only reshaping the international order, but fundamentally changing a challenging long-standing arrangements on security, economic stability, and the role of the state itself. We are living in an era where threats evolve faster, risks spread wider, and certainity grows thinner. Heightened geopolitical tensions, technological disruptions, cyber threats, and transnational nature of organized crime continue to define the security environment confronting nations. Under these conditions, the responsibility placed on the intelligence community has never been greater. The intelligence community is called upon not to merely gather information, but to convert information into strategic insight. not to merely anticipate events but to interrupt them.
For intelligence without foresight is like a radar without range that remains operational in form but unable to detect the dangers approaching the nation. This demands institutions that are agile in thought, focused in conduct and decisive in action. institutions that can protect the republic while remaining firmly grounded in the constitution and the democratic accountability.
Honorable members, for the state security agency to fulfill this responsibility of securing the republic, we must modernize our systems, strengthen the capacity to anticipate and respond to emerging threats, build the skills and capabilities required for a changing security environment, and above all, we must decisively act to secure the republic. Our most immediate frontier to secure the republic is through a focused, non-negotiable and decisive fight against organized crime.
Organized crime in South Africa has escalated into a multi-dimensional and deeply entrenched threat that undermines the country's national security, economic stability, democratic governance, and social cohesion.
We are witnessing structured and highly coordinated criminal networks that operate systematically for profit through illegal activities. These networks range from local gangs to transnational syndicates and often exploit weaknesses in border management, social economic conditions, corruption and state capture risks, international criminal connections, technological systems, and limited law enforcement and coordination capacity in some areas.
During the 2025-26 financial year, the State Security Agency completed a comprehensive intelligence-led anti-organized crime strategy to focus its operational plans. This strategy prioritize prioritizes critical pillars such as criminal networks, cartels, and syndicate profiling, mapping, and monitoring. Enhance disruption and enforcement capabilities, including through multi- agency collaboration and cooperation. Increase partnerships with critical role players. building our technological capabilities as well as improving the technical ability of our members to stay ahead of evolving criminal tactics. In the 2026 27 financial year, the SSA will spare no effort in translating the goals of our anti-organized crime strategy into tangible results. Accordingly, we commit to a strengthened intelligence-led approach that prioritizes the identification of priority syndicates and the coordinated deployment of multi-disiplinary capabilities to disrupt and dismantle criminal networks.
The fight against organized crime in South Africa and across the globe is always undermined by the contamination of the criminal justice system. Since 2021, the national intelligence estimate raised the need to decontaminate the criminal justice system. However, compromised elements within the system have always made it impossible to implement this national intelligence priority. I must take this moment to appreciate the decision by his excellency president Sir Raaposa to appoint the Matlanga Commission that is bringing to the public the extent of the contamination of the criminal justice system and thus making it slightly difficult for compromise elements to continue to operate. On our part, the SSA has commenced to implement the state of the nation address directive to revet members of senior management service of the SAPS and vet members of the metrop police departments and metropolitan municipalities. This work coincide with our own project of implementing the evetting system and reviewing the vetting regulations.
The evetting system will make it possible for SSA to undertake large scale vetting projects. Currently the user acceptance testing on phase one of the e- vetting system has commenced and will be deployed for subs and eurolin metropolitan department vetting in the first quarter of the 2026 27 financial year. A total of 39,000 files out of 56,000 files dating back from 2018 have been digitized to date. The reviewed vetting regulations are undergoing consultations with a plan to have them finalized by the end of September 2026.
Two of the critical and new provisions of these regulations are worth mentioning. A the provision to refer criminal suspicions to law enforcement for investigations as part of the outcomes of the voting process. B the provision for continuous lifestyle audit for public sector panel in strategic positions. Honorable members, a stable and cohesive society is the backrock of national security. Violent societal conflicts pose a direct threat to social cohesion, economic stability and South Africa's international standing. These tensions when left unchecked manifest in sporadic outbreaks of violence, community clashes and heightened parallel polarization that undermine the very foundations of our conal democracy.
Such conflicts not only endanger lives and destroy livelihoods by al but they also damage investor confidence and disrupt local economies. We are starting to observe the intersection of violent societal conflicts with organized crime and influence of foreign actors.
of recent South Africa is experiencing a rise in anti- illegal immigration linked protests that are exploiting the genuine concerns of South Africans about the spiraling illegal immigration problem.
And these genuine concerns are opportunistically being used by criminal elements, populist agitators and external actors seeking to destabilize our nation. In the 202526 financial year, the state security agency stren strengthened its focus on early detection and mitigation of these threats. The SSA will continue to monitor underlying drivers of violent societal conflict including economic inequality, service delivery failures, unemployment and inflammatory rhetoric and provides timely strategic and operational intelligence to relevant government departments and law enforcement agencies to address these challenges. as the lead agency for national security.
>> as a lead agency for national security.
>> Honorable minister, my honorable from the MK party, your microphone is on. Can we just mute that member, please? Please proceed. Honorable Minister, >> as a lead agency for national security, the SSA remains committed to safeguarding social cohesion without compromising the rights and freedoms enshrined in our constitution. Our assessment is that South Africans are not xenophobic. Hence, we uphold the Kushal principle that national security must reflect the resolve of South Africans as individuals and as a nation to live as equals to live in peace and harmony to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life. Honorable members, the intelligence services recognize that illegal immigration when exploited by organized criminal syndicates constitute not merely a domestic border management challenge but a broader transnational security concern requiring coordinated regional and international intelligence cooperation.
When when the international transorganized crime protocol is implemented, South Africa plays a role in upholding that protocol with South African intelligence services increasingly engaging foreign intelligence agencies and security counterparts on the need for a coordinated co-continental and regional security response directed not against law lawful migration itself but against organized criminal facilitation networks that exploit vulnerable populations.
poorest borders, corruption, vulnerabilities and weak governance environments for financial and operational gain. South Africa continues to advocate for enhanced intelligence sharing mechanisms among regional and continental partners regarding organized migrant smuggling syndicates, trafficking networks, Julian documentation system, illicit financial flows and trans criminal uh transnational criminal facilitators operating across multiple jurisdiction.
The republic further supports the strengthening of cooperative early warning systems capable of identifying emerging migration security risk criminal transit corridors and evolving patterns of crossber organized criminal uh activity. South Africa also continues to engage encourage greater cooperation within the African Union and Southern African Development Commun community framework regarding harmonized border security standards, intelligence fusion mechanisms and coordinated counterorganized crime strategies aligned with the obligations contemplated contemplated under the palenmo convention.
Modern terrorism is also increasingly operating through decentralized networks, digital transform platforms, illicit financial flows and transnational facilitation systems. This means that counterterrorism today is not only about preventing attacks but also about protecting the integrity of financial systems, strengthening coordination and disrupting the financial infrastructure that enables extremist activity. In the last year, South Africa has shown great progress in strengthening its resilience against and response to countering violent extremism and terrorism. The state security agency and other law enforcement agencies have placed specific focus on disrupting and countering terror terrorist financing and improving instrumental coordination.
This included better inter agency and interdep department collaboration, an increased use of financial intelligence in investigations, and an increase in the detection of terrorism and terrorist finance financing related activities in line with the country's risk profile.
Noteworththing advancements have been made in this regard such as finalizing the comprehensive terrorism financing national risk assessment. Compiling the national countering the financing of terrorism strategy, developing and implementing a targeted financial sanctions operational framework regime.
improving access to beneficial ownership information and strengthening the capability and capacity of law enforcement and other role players in order to effectively detect, investigate and prosecute at um terror financing offenses.
Today, every aspect of our lives relies on digital systems which are increasingly vulnerable to malicious actors. Consequently, nations globally have made cyber security a top priority in South Africa is no different. As South Africa's digital economy rap speedily transforms and expands, it increases vulnerabilities and provides more entry points for increasingly sophisticated cyber criminals, hackers, and state sponsored actors. During our budget vote last year, we communicated that we are finalizing consultations on the draft national cyber security strategies.
Considering the feedback from the consultative se sessions and growing number of cyber attacks affecting multiple sectors and causing significant disruptions, it is imperative to develop a comprehensive strategy that transcends traditional defensive measures and focuses on resilience to achieve digital resilience. We are pri we are prioritizing cyber resilience, the ability to anticipate, withstand and respond to and recover from cyber uh security incidences.
Intelligence coordination is a central pillar to intelligence success. In 202425 financial year, we finalized and brought into implementation the regulations for intelligence coordination and that effort strengthened the effectiveness of national intelligence structures. This term we finalized the establishment of the national center for intelligence coordination. Since uh the dawn of democracy, there's been just an office for the national coordinator for intelligence and the national intelligence coordinating committee principles without the structure to support their work. In this regard, we have sought to implement the recommendations of the 2006 task team on the review of intelligence related legislation, regulation and policies.
The task team had recommended that that there be a distinction between the office of the coordinator and the Niko principles and the staff supporting the work of the intelligence coordination.
As as such, we have established and launched the national center for intelligence coordination. This body represents the final piece of the puzzle in our quest for a unified national security picture and strategic reforms.
The NCIC serves the daily integration hub where Nikok the committee which is the heads of SAP's CI defense intelligence sa and sis regularly meets to synthesize raw data into actionable wisdom for the executive. It is through the full functioning of the NCIC that we are finally breaking down the silos that once allowed organized crime and sabotage to flourish in the gaps between departments. This center ensures that our response to national threats is no longer reactive but is instead guided by a single coherent and a narrative for risk facing our nation.
As we meet today, the National Security Council will soon co consider the 2026 National Intelligence Estimate and the National Intelligence Priorities and so that they can be implemented. The work of the NCSC and Nikok is pivotal in housing the attention of our national intelligence structures to key intelligence priorities that sought to be addressed in a financial year.
In today's rapidly evolving digital landscape, communications have fundamentally transformed.
Criminal networks, organized criminal syndicates, and national security threats actors increasingly operate across encrypted platforms, datadriven applications, and borderless digital environments. These actors continue to exploit advanced technologies to operate with greater sophistication and anonymity. Traditional methods of investigation and lawful interception and surveillance are therefore no longer sufficient on their own. As a country, we must ensure that our capabilities evolve at the same pace as the threats confronting us.
The operations of the OIC are currently constrained by aging infrastructure characterized by challenges relating to reliability, maintenance, scalability, and increasing digital technological op obsence amid repeat advancements in telecommunication. The similar problem applies in the National Communications Center. It is therefore imperative that the OIC and the National Communication Center prioritizes the modernization and strengthening of their interception capabilities and surveillance capabilities to ensure that law enforcement agencies are equipped with lawful, reliable and effective tools to fulfill their mandate. This modernization will enhance techn stability, minimize downtime and establish a s sustainable technological environment capable of meeting future operational needs. Cloud computing is no longer an is no longer optional. It is essential. The vellum, velocity and variety of data associated with modern communications requires scal scalable, flexible and resilient infrastructure and therefore the SSA will be investing in robust cyber security and data protection measures to make sure that sensitive informations remain secure by through digital through data secured platforms and also networks that are reliable and a vibrant and reliable data center.
The financial resources have been appropriate appropriately referenced to enable the OIC to respond rapidly to technological changes introduced by electronic communication service providers. Given the dynamic nature of the telecommunications system, OIC system must remain agile, adaptive and continuously modern.
It is precisely in this context of our modernization that during the 2024 202526 budget vote we reflected extensively on the transformation currently underway within the state security agency and reaffirmed the commitment of the agency's leadership to implement the recommendations of the high level review panel as part of the broader program of renewal and repositioning. A key priority over the medium-term is the implementation of human resource strategies and policies that improve the organizational framework and strengthen alignment between skills and functional requirements across the organization.
This will ensure that the skills are aligned to roles in a manner that supports effective delivery of the agency's um uh mandate. This process is is being guided by the development of the business model, capability model and operational model and capacity model which will provide clarity of what the organization must deliver, the capabilities required and how this should be structured and deployed. This model will also models will also inform how how technology can be leveraged to enhance specific components of the operational model enabling improved efficiency, integration and responsiveness. In the 2026 27 financial year, we will prioritize the disestablishment of the state security agency and the establishment of the South African intelligence agency, the domestic service and the South African intelligence uh service, the foreign service. Work is already underway to prepare for the proclamation including the articulations of the functions and structures for the reconfigured intelligence services as well as the finalization of regulations which are key requirement for the implementation of the general loss amendment act to support the effective functioning of the surveillance services within the allocated resource framework. I've approved the shared service structure which will provide integrated corporate support services across the intelligence environment. This model will support key legislated entities including the office of the interception centers, the office of the inspector general of intelligence and the newly renamed the newly established national coordination center national center for intelligence coordination. These international reforms are not taking place in isolations. They are being driven by the nature of the threats confronting the republic today. Chief amongst this is the growing sophistication of organized criminal networks that are increasingly operating across borders but that require decisive action on our part.
Honorable House chairpersons, the challenges confronting nation states are not only internal but they also arise from external pressures as both are interrelated and are part of the bigger system. South Africa has not been immune from the effects of contemporary global geopolitical contestation. Indeed, many of the challenges facing our country, the region, and the continent emanate from this fact. The global security environment is undergoing a period of intense geopolitical tensions and conflicts which threaten and disrupt supply chains and overall business environment. South Africa remains a key financial and strategic country in southern African development community to advance regional integration and cohesion. The region faces a myriad of threats which impedes the enhancement of priorities of the medium-term development plan 202429.
Inclusive economic growth, job creation cannot materialize if political instability and conflict in the region continues to exact pressure on South Africa's bilateral relations. As the chair of SAD community, South Africa will not only seek to strengthen exist existing partnerships towards diversification, diversifying its trade and commercial relations, but will also continue to champion regional in integration and industrialization to advance regional security. The state security agency continues to closely monitor developments in the north and in the Horn of Africa regions whose instability carries implications for South Africa's national security. In Sudan, the ongoing civil war and escalating drone attacks have worsened the humanitarian crisis, ongoing displacement and arms proliferation.
These more terror activities such as espoused by al-Shabaab in Somalia coupled with transnational organized crime further threaten the horns of Africa stability with impact on the South African situation and SADC in general. The situation in the Middle East remains tense due to the long-standing Israeli Palestine conflict and a fragile ceasefire between the United States and Iran. In Gaza, violence continues, exa exacerbating a severe humanitarian crisis and mass displacement. But also in Iran, the nonresolution of the ceasefire creates a problem for the stability and security of wealth supply and therefore the stability of our economies. Contemporary dynamic and fastch changing landscape in the fields of intelligence and national security has necessitated organational agility. It has become imperative for the intelligence community inclusive of the SSA to stay ahead and ab breast of techn technology induced threats and opportunities and thus the need for technologically inclined intelligence and counter intelligence uh production.
The evolution of the intelligence environment demands for continuous alignment of skills, knowledge and tools matching them with everchanging cutting edge technologies used by potential advisory. It is upon this premise that the South African National Intelligence Academ SAI is utilizing its con convenience to foster business optimization through the alluded technically inclined intelligence production. As the minister in the presidency, I've directed the agency to help optimize its business by leveraging the power of data. This vision aims to improve strategic decision-m and operationally efficiency amongst others and thus establishing a data institute through Sanai is of paramount importance. The data institute will then serve as a dedicated hub for research and development and will foster datadriven innovation, develop data capabilities through training and continuous professional development in support of data related technologies for the intelligence community in order to advance South Africa's national security interest. Data institute as a strategic enabler of Sanai and SSA will attract and house experts in the field of data science, cyber security, machine learning and artificial intelligence.
These experts will collaborate on complex data challenges ensuring governance, security and integrity of data and in creating advanced solutions that can transform SSA's operations across uh businesses. The geospatial information data h dashboard is another innovation intended to help reorientate functions of the organization towards geospatial technology inclined intelligence collection, analysis and dissemination. Through the academy, the SSA has entered into MOU with the South African National Space Agency in 2024.
The scope of which makes provision for collaboration in various areas encompassing training provision of and provision of to other data platforms and thisou is being enhanced to to add other functionality. The academ has embarked on a project to register as a higher education institution with the department of higher education and training which will also include accreditation with the council for higher education. A higher education the higher education institution project task team was established cons constitute consisting of various expertise within the academic and across other structures of the agency. In support of this strategic repositioning, the agency is also strengthening the agency the academy's role as a center for research innovation and future orientated capability development. I thank you.
>> Thank you honorable minister. I've allowed you to uh complete your speech honorable minister. We'll just adjust the time at the end. Thank you very much. The next speaker is the honorable papane.
Thank you very much honorable house chaperson, honorable minister, the intelligence family, colleagues, I greet you all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30 years ago, South Africa adopted a constitution that marked only the birth of a new democratic order, but the renewal of a nation.
It was a moment in which hope was given legal form, where division was replaced with a shared commitment of to dignity, justice, accountability, and where power was placed firmly under the authority of the rule of law. Our constitution did not our constitution did more than establish democratic institution.
It redefined the relationship between the state and its people. It declared that government exists not above the people but in service of the people. It enshrined the values of human dignity, freedom, equality, transparency and accountability as the moral and legal foundation of our republic. It is within this constitutional framework that our intelligence services services find both their mandate and their obligation.
Intelligence is not about is not power unto itself. It is a solemn responsibility to protect the republic, defend its sovereignty, safeguard its people and preserve the constitutional order.
As we mark three decades of our constitution, we are reminded that these principles are not self- sustaining.
They require constant constant stewardship, vigilance and renewal. The constitution remains our compass not only in the times of stability but especially in the moments of reform and renewal.
We gather at the time when the world is becoming increasing increasingly unstable, interont interconnected and unpredictable across the globe. We are witnessing rising geopolitical tensions, shifting alliances and the erosion of long-standing security certainties.
Cyber threats now move faster than the legislation can be drafted and implemented.
Disinformation spreads faster than truth and organized crime crosses borders with ease. While the instruments of state often struggle to keep pace, these are not distant developments. They are realities that shape our nation, our national security environment. Every day at home, South Africa faces a growing challenge from organized crime network crime networks that are increasingly that are increasingly sophisticated, deeply embedded and economically destructive.
These networks erode the foundation of public trust, weaken institutional governance and threaten the everyday conditions necessary to necessary for economic development and social cohesion.
It is for this reason that the elevation of organized crime as a national security priority is both necessary and urgent and we support this.
As the joint standing committee on intelligence, we will continue to exercise rigorous oversight over this priority area. We do not only we do so not only in fulfillment of our mandate but in recognition of the real and lived impact of these threats on communities across our country.
We note the progress made in the development of the anti-organized crime strategy which represents an important step towards more coordinated intelligenceled response to one of the most pressing security challenges of our time.
Honorable House chairperson, the transformation and separation of the state security agency remains a work of national importance and forecast focused oversight for the committee. The reforms underway guided by the general intelligence law amendment act are not merely administrative exercises. They represents an effort to res to restore institutional integrity, rebuild public trust and ensure that intelligence services are aligned with the constitutional values that underpin their work. The the committee acknowledges progress in the development of the critical regulatory frameworks to operationalize Jillaa, including the shared services regulations and strengthen technologicallydriven vetting system designed to protect the integrity of the intelligence services and guard against corruption and potential compromise.
We also welcome the continued work on the white paper on intelligence. It offers an o an opportunity to re to re-imagine intelligence policy for a democratic era shaped by technological change, global complexity and evolving threats. The committee notes that the ongoing separation on the SSA The committee notes that the ongoing separation of the SSA into the South African Intelligence Services and the South African Intelligence Agency. This process is not about institutional separation alone. It is about clarity of mandate, operational effectiveness, and the strengthening of South Africa's intelligence services to anticipate and respond to threats in a coherent manner.
We must acknowledge that transformation of this scale is neither simple nor swift, but it is necessary and driven by demands of the changing security environment and the constitutional duty to ensure that intelligence services are effective, lawful and accountable.
This transformation is taking place under this under severe uh financial constraints.
Honorable Minister, we've been raising this concern of financial constraints within the security cluster uh department. The reality is that increasing uh intelligence responsibilities are being carried by institution whose resources are not growing at the same pace. This tension carries consequences for capabilities, technological advancement and longterm institutional sustainability.
National security cannot be built on aspiration alone. It required sustained investment.
Honorable House Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to say that as the agency, we do support this uh budget vote as h tabled by the minister. I thank you.
>> Thank you, honorable member. The next speaker is the honorable Mollo on the virtual platform.
Honorable honorable chairperson, fellow South Africans, uh chair person, may I switch off my video because of the natur of natural conditions where I am?
>> Yes, you may.
>> Thank you. So thank you so much honorable chairperson and honorable members.
fellow South Africans.
The MK party rises today to reject this budget with the contempt it deserves and before this house attempts to lecture us about constitutional order.
Let us first place on record the truth is parliament and the presidency have deliberately delayed the swearing in of Jul MK MKP members to this committee for over a month and a half.
The official opposition has effectively been held ransom while democratic representation is manipulated through delay, bureaucracy and political convenience.
That alone tells South Africans everything they need to know about the state of of governance in this country.
This governance fears accountability.
It fears scrutiny.
It fears oversight.
As I speak to a person, I was told MK party was not going to be allowed to speak because it was a sw in. Hence, I'm at home and nowhere is a fear more visible than in the collapsing state security environment before us today.
Chapen, state security should be the shield of the republic.
Instead, under this government, it has become one of the greatest symbols of state decay.
South Africans are being asked to approve billions for intelligence structures that cannot secure borders, cannot dismantle criminal syndicates, cannot stop corruption, cannot anticipate instability, cannot protect infrastructure, and seemingly cannot even detect major breaches of national security happening under their noses.
What what exactly chap are we finding here today?
Because we are clearly not finding intelligence excellence.
We are finding failure dressed in secrecy.
We are finding incompetence protected by classification stamps.
We are finding a government that wants taxpayers to believe that national security means parliament must stop asking questions while the country bans.
Chapen a serious intelligence state does not wake up after the facts.
A serious intelligence state prevents rise crisis before they happen. But this government intelligence structures operate like spectators to national collapse.
Ra cartels have established kingdoms in South Africa. Not even networks but kingdoms.
Entire communities are controlled by organized criminal syndicates.
While ordinary South Africans leave behind back the gates, razor wire and fear. Ports are infiltrated.
Borders are compromised.
Townships are flooded with narcotics.
Young people are being destroyed by drugs. While syndicates become wealthier and wealthier and more powerful.
Where is state security?
What intelligence is being gathered?
What operations are six are succeeding?
What exactly justifies these billions?
Because the evidence before South Africans is not evidence of a capability, but it is evidence of a captured and weakened one. Chapen, if South Africa had a functioning intelligence capability, our borders would not resemble open corridors of undocumented migration, trafficking syndicates, illegal firearms, contraband and trans and transnational criminal operations.
A sovereign state knows who enters its territory. A sovereign state controls its borders. A sovereign state protects its economic and national interest. This government does none. None of that.
Instead, communities across South Africa are carrying the burden of failed border management while government officials sit comfortable in conferences speaking the language of regional cooperation with the republic itself. With the public itself is bleeding authority with the republic itself, chairperson bleeding authority. And then comes the greatest embarrassment of them all. Pala pala.
Millions in foreign currency allegedly entered this country, moved through this country and set hidden on a farm belonging to the president of the republic undetected.
Undetected person.
South Africans are expected to believe that a state which monitors citizens tracks financial activity and claims sophisticated intelligence capability somehow failed to detect massive volume of foreign currency moving within the republic linked to the highest office in the land.
Chairperson, there are there are only two possibilities.
Either the intelligence services are completely incompetent or they knew or chose silence.
Both polit possibilities are devastating because if millions of foreign currency can alle allegedly enter and move South Africa undetected at presidential level then what confidence should South Africans ordinary South Africans have in the integrity of our national security systems?
What else enters undetected?
What criminal money flows through this country unnoticed?
What foreign interest operate freely while state sleeps? What national security threat threats chap this is very very embarrassing.
Today the state security agency has become associated less with protecting the republic and more >> your time has now expired.
>> Battles MK vote is not supported on this budget. Thank you.
>> Thank you. The next speaker is honorable May.
Honorable House Chair, uh, honorable members, distinguished guests, on the occasion of this budget debate, as much as we appreciate and acknowledge their work, it will serve us well to reflect frankly on the management and the efficacy of our intelligence services.
Firstly, we need to acknowledge that our intelligence services have paid far too high a price for improper political interference resulting in numerous investigations pointing to gross abuse of power and resources. This is a matter for the record. This has not only lowered the standing of our intelligence community in the eyes of the general public, but has also severely damaged the ability of our services to contribute effectively towards the goal of a safe, free, and prosperous South Africa for all. Years have now passed since the first adverse findings were made against some in our intelligence structures. Yet no evidence has thus far been produced of any meaningful consequence management for serious wrongdoing. As I did a year ago, I again today pose the following question to this house. Has anyone to date been reported to any law enforcement agency or charged in relation to the disappearance of SSA firearms or the hundreds of millions of rans found by the Zandu commission to have been wrongfully withdrawn and handled by Mrs. Tulani DLmore Mr. David Schlor now deputy minister and of course Arthur Fraser. Of course the political masters maintain a deafening silence hoping that the people will forget. But South Africa's societal and economic well-being as well as the authority of the state is increasingly under threat.
Not so much from foreign actors but instead self-inflicted through poor policy decisions and even poorer governance. For instance, our economy is is stagnating. Subsire Africa and our neighbors are growing at 4 and a half%.
We are sitting at 1%. Resulting in rich in rising poverty levels and a cost of living crisis directly due to poor policy decisions and ineffective governance. Also, service delivery protests often violent and destructive shows no sign of abating. In addition, the scour the scourge of corruption, much talked about these days, but very seldom acted upon, continues to undermine the electorate's belief in the preferential nature of a democratic political system. And the danger is real uh honorable members because when you continue to vote year after year but never see corrupt politicians and crooked officials go to jail, you come to the conclusion that voting is irrelevant and you start looking at other options to express yourself. And this is the danger. So to add insult to injury, 5 years after the riots of July 2021, we still have no credible assurances that the intelligence failures associated with it have been addressed properly at all. But what does the president what did the president of the republic say about all of this? The president told the human rights commission that the riots destroyed 2 million jobs and wiped 50 billion rand off the economy.
Let me repeat that. 2 million jobs and 50 billion rand wiped off the economy.
The president also told the commission that the state failed in its duty to detect and then to quash the unrest which was of course nothing but an attempted insurrection by the Zuma faction of the ANC.
But still no one got fired and of course no one resigned. Honorable members, to illustrate the severity of the crisis in intelligence, we only have to note the following. We have an an inspector general of intelligence effectively removed from office with no prospect of a successor in the foreseeable future.
We have an acting director general of state security who's been acting for as long as anyone can remember. We also have an acting coordinator of intelligence, critical a role as that is.
In fact, we have various acting senior managers across the service. And then we have a new intelligence act crucial for restructuring and improving South Africa's intelligence services, but deliberately not being implemented. And to compound the crisis further, we have shrinking budgets making it increasingly difficult for our intelligence services to meet their constitutional obligations towards the republic. House chair the conclusion appears inescapable.
We are looking at a clear dereliction of duty amongst those who bear political responsibility for our services. This is not alarmist rhetoric, House members, but a clarion call to get our act together. Because unless we act with purpose and far greater urgency to fix education, to grow the economy with the right policies, to restore law and order, and send crooked politicians and officials to jail, our intelligence services will be reduced to passive onlookers, unable to stem the tide of societal upheaval. and the collapse of our democratic constitutional order. May we never see that day. I thank you.
Next speaker is the Honorable Tisha.
Thank you, honorable House Chair, House Chairperson. This is what we know about state state security today. We know that organized criminal syndicates have infiltrated elements of South African criminal justice system including the intelligence community. We know that there has been a systematic weakening of South Africa's state security apparatus over the past 10 to 15 years because of instability in leadership, corruption and the looting of secret funds to finance luxurious lifestyles and political patronage. We also know that this weakening has produced nepotism, factionalism, and the employment of incompetent operatives who spend more time protecting political interest than protecting the republic.
The instability within the office of the inspector general of intelligence is itself deliberate. Political leadership does not want an independent oversight institution capable of exposing corruption, abuse of secret funds and un and unlawful intelligence operations. They want intelligence structures that operate without accountability so that they can be weaponized to settle political scores, manipulate internal factional battles and influence conferences within the governing party. We have had evidence during the ad hoc committee that intelligence structures have increasingly drawn drawn into fictional um political warfare instead of defending the sovereignty and security of South Africa. Deputy ministers instruct instructing sec state security intelligence officers and collecting evidence themselves as if they are not political leadership. Even the blocking of the inspector general of intelligence from appearing before the ad hoc committee on on the allegations raised by General Muanazi was malicious and deeply dishonest. It was a deliberate abuse of parliamentary rules while refusing to find practical arrangements that would have protected legitimate state security concerns without undermining oversight.
The president and the minister prioritize protecting the governing party and shielding pro corruption over protecting the integrity of parliament and restoring confidence in the intelligence services. They want to continue weaponizing intelligence structures and secret funds for narrow political gain. State security secrets are leaked without consequences. Secret funds are looted without consequences.
intelligence assets disappear without trace and later emerge in in private bank accounts and properties registered in people's names. Parliament itself admits that it is failing to exercise meaningful oversight over intelligence structures while the auditor general cannot properly audit intelligence expenditure because everything is hidden behind secrecy and classification.
House Chairperson, the EFF maintains that as long as South Africa does not have co a coherent national economic security strategy, intelligence structures will remain disjointed, corrupt and inter internally compromised. The state security cannot be about spying on politicians and protecting factions within the governing party while organized crime captures institutions of the state. Illegal mining syndicates expand. Drug cartels operate across borders and foreign interest undermine h the sovereignity of South Africa. We are witnessing transnational criminal networks coordinating themselves better than South African state itself. Intelligence services must protect the people and sovereignty of South Africa, not fictional political interest. The the EFF therefore believes that the following must happen urgently. Firstly, South Africa must develop a national economic security strategy that links intelligence works to intelligence work to industrial policy, cyber security, border security, energy security and financial sovereignty. Secondly, there must be a complete lifestyle audit vetting and an and vetting review of all senior intelligence officials including a full investigation into the abuse of uh secret services accounts and intelligence/ funds. Thirdly, Parliament must establish a far stronger and and genuinely in independent oversight mechanism over intelligence structures with protected with with protected investigative capacity and the ability to hold the executive accountable without political inter interference.
Fourthly, South Africa must professionalize the intelligence community through the proper training, merit-based recruitment and removal of fictional patronage networks. Lastly, there must be consequences. Those who looted intelligence resources, compromised national security, and turned intelligence structures into factional battles must be criminally pro prosecuted and permanently rem removed from public uh office. The security of the public republic cannot be sacrificed for corruption, incompetence and fictional politics. We reject this budget. But chap before I step down, we encourage all young people to go out and register to vote for the EFF so that we can attain economic freedom in our lifetime.
>> The next speaker is the honorable TV person.
Uh South Africa has a complex history with state security.
In this in the past uh uh such organizations uh were used as tools of of oppression to isolate and target communities.
Today the state security agency is committed to reforming its legacy by protecting the welfare of all citizens.
It plays essential uh role in guarding our nation and deepening South Africa uh safe from both internal and threats.
However, we must ensure that uh we do not uh revert to the fear and anxiety that uh govern previous state security regimes. Citizens must not be intimidated by the unknown workings of the National Security Agency, particularly when it is the people's taxes that fund them. For this reason, we call for increased transparency around the financial workings of uh the state security agency. We are deeply aware that uh much of the agency's business must by nature uh of its work remain uh in clanderstein. However, this does not uh mean that uh it is exempt from uh the rigorous vetting and monitoring uh that other government bodies are subjected to.
Without sufficient government governmental oversight, it becomes far too easy for financial exploitation to thrive.
We acknowledge that uh program two has been allocated billions for the current fiscal year. This program encompasses both the uh security uh or state security agency and the financial intelligence center. The IFP welcomes this funding as it indicates a commitment to enhancing the state's uh capacity for fighting financial crime.
However, we urge the treasury to consider implementing u practical steps that will uh increase the amount of oversight that the state security is um subject to.
uh two bodies are currently informed of the state's uh security agency's activities to a limited extent namely the joint standing committee on intelligence and the office of the inspector general.
This does not leave any space for public scrutiny or command which is at odds with our government's commitment to trans transparent democratic uh governance. The IFP is the IFP's priority has always been to ensure that reason is the guiding principle behind governance. We cannot reconcile the lack of uh uh transparency surrounding the state security budget with our government's uh commitment to remaining accountable to its uh public.
The IFP supports uh budget vote 8 but strongly urge the treasury to take a practical action in making uh the financial workings of the state secret agency more accessible to the public.
Thank you.
>> Thank you honorable member. The next speaker is the honorable Basson.
Patriot State Security Agency.
South Africans deserve a security agency that protects the people, not politics, corruption or connected few.
In corrupty polit for the Patriotic Alliance.
Fore chairperson supporting this budget vote must go hand in hand with clean governance profession. Professionalism and integrity.
The Patriotic Alliance.
It is time illegal foreigners are sent home. The procedures are far too lengthy. Our people, the poor of the poor is losing their jobs, their livelihoods by the day. Abahham is not just a slogan. It's a reality.
Every foreigner in this country takes a job from a South African, bread from a South African, food from a South African.
Africa.
Get the foreigners out of our country and give South Africans their dignity, their lives, their jobs back. I thank you.
Yeah. The next speaker is the honorable James.
Honorable chairperson, the state security agency is meant to be a shield that protects our democracy, our constitution, and the people of South Africa from threats both inside and outside our borders. Instead, South Africans have watched an intelligence structure plagued by scandal, political interference, and a complete collapse in public trust.
At a time when organized crime syndicates are growing stronger, illegal mining networks are expanding. Extortion mafias are terrorizing communities and corruption continues to hollow out the state. Our intelligence service should be focused, professional, and effective.
Yet year after year we hear more about infighting, suspensions, allegations and dysfunction and dysfunction um than about successful intelligence operations that keep South Africans safe. South Africans are losing confidence in the border broader criminal justice system.
Senior SAPS officials continue to face arrest, suspensions, and serious allegations of corruption and misconduct. Instead of stability and professionalism at the highest levels of law enforcement, there is constant turmoil. This creates the perception that crime syndicates are becoming more organized than the very institutions meant to fight them. How can ordinary South Africans feel safe when senior officials entrusted with enforcing the law are themselves under investigation?
How can communities trust the state when political battles and internal power struggles appear to take priority over public safety? The reality is that when intelligence uh structures fail, gang violence flourishes in our communities, illegal firearms continue flowing across our borders, drug syndicates expand their reach, critical infrastructure is sabotaged, and ordinary citizens are left vulnerable while communities operate with growing confidence.
The SSA SSA cannot continue to operate under a cloud of secrecy without proper parliamentary oversight and consequence management. Intelligence structures must serve the country, not political factions or personal interests. We need properly skilled intelligence professionals, stronger vetting systems and modern capabilities to combat cyber crime, organized crime and financial crimes. We also need far stronger coordination between SSA, SAPS, the Hawks, and other law enforcement agencies if we are serious about restoring law and order. Most importantly, we must be accountable.
South Africans are tired of hearing about commissions, investigations, and dabbing reports with little consequences for those responsible. Public trust cannot be rebuilt while wrongdoing is ignored or protected. The people of South Africa deserve intelligence and law enforcement institutions that are credible, ethical, and capable of protecting them. Until that happens, crime will continue to flourish, corruption will continue to thrive, and public confidence in the state will continue to erode. Again, I say, I thank you. The next speaker is honorable.
Uh thank you house chairperson, honorable ministers, minister and honorable members and also leadership of the services.
I must say from the onset honorable chairperson that those that were speaking who are not member of the JCI they were speaking rhetoric or hogwash uh trying to disinform South Africa and they must that their speeches must be rejected. They know what they need to do to become members.
Uh, House Chairperson, allow me from the onset to salute men and women uh of our intelligence services, not with empty rhetoric, but with pride, deep respect, and recognition of their sacrifice and unparalleled unparalleled patriotism.
Through uh close cooperation amongst these agencies, they've shown time and again that they are equal to the task.
Effective intelligence enable the state to anticipate it threat before they become crisis.
These are men and women who serve in our intelligence service to carry out significant responsibilities under the demanding conditions. Often without public recognition, their contribution to national security deserve both the institutional support and sustained strategic investment.
We have no doubt that they will continue to fulfill their mandate effectively and professionally in full accordance with the constitution and in service of the expectation of the JCI and the people of South Africa.
They do not march in public parade.
Their names do not appear in headlines.
Their families are not do not often know where they go or what they witness as they've proven again time and again that they equal to the task. They are alive to internal threat and external threat as they disrupted the gang violence, illicit mining networks, criminal syndicate of the organized crime and drugs cartel and they tracked the crossber terrorist activities and they can see the encroachment of our sea, land and airspace.
This is not gay work but professionalism and patriotism in action. We strongly believe that um in fact to underscore we note that they serve the constitution they don't serve uh anyone else the democratic state and the people of South Africa to underscore the intelligence capability cannot be rebuilt overnight.
They require sustained intervention.
House chairperson, we welcome the cabinet approval of the defense strategy, the journey to greatness precisely because it will be the enabler to mobilize resources to fund the defense intelligence and and to ensure that it strengthen their operational capabilities required and also the product they need for their professional work. House chairperson. The Gila Act was a watershed act precisely because it build the legal and operational foundation for all domains that are now critical to and central to modern warfare that is cyber security, protection of the information infrastructure, the dedicated cyber command, artificial intelligence domain for defense intelligence. These are not optional addition. They are nerf center or the very same brain that our intelligence service operational capacity and efficiencies requires. Therefore, Gila is the basis for a digital arteries.
No structure of offensive or defensive uh warfare can be able to advance without cyber warfare. No AI as metric predictive threat analysis.
I must say honorable honorable house chairperson that we we are acknowledging the recovery that will it will not be immediate. Financial pressures has been the genesis for defense intelligence. So therefore they they are operating under those weaknesses and as I said earlier we're looking forward for them to rebuild their capabilities to make sure that the strategic in death of techn technological modernization digitization infrastructure renewal and retention of the scarce and specialized skills. I must say honorable chairperson the committee remains equally remains equally committed to ensure that there's accountability efficiency sound governance and measurable outcome within the defense intelligence. Every allocation must contribute to towards the meaningful rebuilding of operational capabilities, improving readiness, strengthen analytical capacity and remains focused in conducting uh focus oversight. The committee therefore expect a continued progress in addressing uh the the critical capabilities to make sure that they have resources to strengthen to strengthen the product that they need uh to operate in the current uh uh ever evolving environment.
Modern intelligence work requires specialized expertise across the range of discipline including cyber capabilities, data analysis, strategic forecasting, language capabilities, technological system and regional security analysis. Without adequate investment, the institution risk, >> we support this budget vote unconditionally, unequivocally.
Thank you.
Is there a speaker for the ICDP, the UDM?
Then honorable Ghana, are you on the virtual platform?
Honorable Ghana, we will move on to the next speaker is uh honorable Webster from Bosa on the platform.
Yes, I am. Thank you very much. um house chair.
>> I was asked in an interview yesterday about the significance of South Africa's institution and my response was that the constitution survives not simply because it is written on paper but because we strengthen and we protect the institutions that are safe that are entrusted with safeguarding it. And that's why the budget that we're debating today matters because this budget is ultimately about whether South Africa can rebuild a professional intelligence capability that protects the republic, one that safeguards the constitution and contributes to economic stability or whether we continue to fund institutions that are weakened by political infiltration and institutional decay. So this budget allocates over 5 billion for state security agency operations. Alongside that, additional allocations for machinery and equipment with the secret services uh environment. But it's not just budgets that rebuild legitimacy.
The high level review panel on the state security agency was very clear that South Africa must rebuild a professional national intelligence capability that's grounded in constitutional principles.
Yet over many years intelligence structures were diverted away from constitutional accountability and they were drawn into factional politics, abuse of power and institutional manipulation. And the problem is that when intelligence institutions become politicized, the consequences extend far beyond the security sector because intelligence and economic stability are directly connected. You can't have an economy that thrives where organized crime can infiltrate ports, uh, procurement systems, infrastructure, and state institutions. There's no investor that has confidence in a state whose intelligence capability is compromised by internal factionism and weakened institutional capacity. The July 2021 unrest exposed this reality and it did so in the most devastating way. There were more than 300 people that lost their lives and we saw supply chains collapsed. There were businesses destroyed that to this day have not been able to reopen and have not um been restored. Their strategic economic infrastructure that was disrupted and we saw similar vulnerabilities during the cyber attack on on transnet which exposed weaknesses in protecting infrastructure that's vital to economic activity. The white paper on intelligence already envision envisioned intelligence services that are politically neutral that are constit constitutionally grounded and that are accountable to parliament and that's why the reforms matter in as much as we can talk about budget today and allocations.
The reforms matter uh for stronger parliamentary oversight for investigations into abuses of power for protections against illegal orders and for rebuilding professional intelligence capacity. So those aren't merely administrative reforms. They are constitutional reforms and they're necessary to restore legitimacy the democratic.
Next speaker. Uh is there a speaker for uh ATM Aljimar NCC UTA good? The next speaker is honorable Colar Bernard.
We are living in interesting times.
Unfortunately, the phrase is traditionally an ancient Chinese curse referring to a tumultuous period. But make no mistake, this is not a curse from ancient China. And we're not victims of fate, but victims of a system that learned to weaponize secrecy.
Throughout the saps, the seemingly neverending arrests have reached the highest ranks. On Wednesday, the suspended National Police Commissioner stood in the dock next to the underworld hero, Vousy Mussy Cat Matlala along with 12 other officers. Who ever thought we'd see such a day? That's all in relation to the dodgy Medicare 24 contract. Now, we've watched as the entire top structure of crime intelligence was arrested. And despite all attempts to downplay the seriousness of the situation with claims that it was merely a human resources matter, the charges are of fraud and corruption. There are always two sides to such claims. The arrests versus the claim that is part of an internal power struggle. We've just seen the arrest of Major General Ferohose Khan, the head of SAP's counterintelligence being arrested in Hartton. He's accused of involvement in an illicit precious metal syndicate, corruption and defeating the ends of justice. Then there's Major General Ibraham Kadwa Clouting Hogs Head.
Arrested alongside of him were senior crime intelligence officers, all linked to the illegal possession of 286,000 rands worth of gold dust. The big question that has to be asked is who did their top secret security clearance vetting? Did they actually go through the process? and it seems that many have not. Or is this an example of the vetting system being undermined or even sidelined completely, simply ignored? In that vein, it's inconceivable that I feel the need to ask if all those top positions and for example, those serving the minister are even in possession of top secret security clearance. We need those asurances because people inside without such clearance are obviously a threat to national security. The attitude of the public in relation to crime intelligence and indeed the South African Police Service as a whole is inevitably back to a low not seen since the National Police Commissioner Jackie Celebi was jailed and crime intelligence head Richard was arrested. He of course still awaits his day in court in relation to the accusations of mass looting now that he's out of jail uh where he served time for another matter involving a murder. The much attacked NPA's investigate investigating directorate against corruption is amongst many other focus areas leading the charge in an effort to cleanse the police service as a whole. Of course, we see a predictably huge fight back there.
Then add to the messy mix the bizarre suspension of the inspector general of intelligence fasil appointed on the 1st of November 22 now sitting at home with his office at a standstill since October. Now, if there was ever a time when this country needed an inspector general of intelligence to be at work, it would be now. But his suspension was as predictable as was the suspension of his predecessor. The pattern is clear.
Suspend the watchdog, then complain that no one is watching. Now the focus has quite rightly been turned to members of parliament claiming a failure in the oversight process just as they in the joint standing committee on intelligence of the fifth parliament were blamed for failing to even notice let alone uncover the mass looting going on from both the state security agency and crime intelligence at that time. It was said in the 2019 high level review panel report on the SSA that systemic secrecy was actively used to hide criminality, political factionalism, and massive financial management. Back then, the SSA was found to have used secrecy while outright ignoring regulations in order to hide illicit activities, which in turn were classified, and so thick was the fog of secrecy, it was almost impossible to hold officials accountable. Thankfully, the SSA today seems infinitely more focused, has one of the finest brain trusts and threat analysis teams which work together uh surely amongst the best in the world.
Never again will a politician, as was the case in the past, simply give an order for the SSA staff to fabricate a report on non-existent evidence or use it for political gain. It's inconceivable and immoral. One is to ask whether crime intelligence has not perhaps learned from the SSA's old guard tactics. one's compelled to ask if they're ignoring certain regulations uh as irrelevant in the face of their mandate. What could be hidden as potential theft, fraud, and corruption or not? I don't know. I don't think anyone will ever know. We're waiting for the day when so many of these matters hitting the headlines eventually go to court. And perhaps we'll find out where those hundreds of millions of rans went again. One's compelled to ask if they m that that may ever happen. We've watched as every entity or individual has attempted to point to internal criminality has been sneered at, castigated, attacked or arrested. On the positive side, our intelligence sector is thanks to both the Zondo Commission and the high level review panel report undergoing major changes. The general intelligent laws amendment act that we worked day and night to process last term should ensure sweeping changes. the SSA being officially dissolved, moved to a foreign intelligence service and a domestic intelligence agency as it was before those Zuma years. Well, that's the plan. Whether or not that actually happens sooner rather than much, much later remains to be seen. And add to that the increased intelligence strategy, transparency. And finally, it does seem to me that this entire sector may well be moving in the right direction and the country should feel safer for that, a lot safer than when we had the riots when there was no intelligence at all or saps for that matter. Thank you.
The next speaker is honorable longer.
the minister to you house chair honored members and to all those listening to us. I must say from the beginning the NC fully support this budget and in fully supporting on it we are calling for more resources to be put so that our people can be protected and live free in our country.
In communities across South Africa millions of our people continue to live with a daily reality of crime and insecurity.
Families lock themselves behind gates and black bars not because they feel safe but because fear has become part of ordinal life. Communities live under the threat of gang violence, extortion, kidnappings, drug trafficking, illegal mining, infrastructure theft and organized ground networks that continue to operate within growing sophistication and alarming boldness. These crime don't occur in isolation. They are coordinated. They are organized. They are well financed and increasingly difficult to combat through traditional policing methods alone. And when committees ask how criminal syndicate is going to operate within such impunity, the question they truly asking is this where is intelligence?
Because effecting policing in the modern era depends not only visible policing but on the strength, credibility and effective of crime intelligence. Crime intelligence remains central to it to the fight against organized crime, violent criminality, corruption, economach and threat to the public safety.
After a person, one of the most critical areas require continued attention is integrity management.
The committee agrees with honor minister that integrity must become a non-negotiable foundation of crime intelligence.
Officials entrusted with intelligence responsibilities occupies positions of enormous sensitivity and trust. They must therefore meet the highest standards of professionalism, ethical conduct and security competence.
As the NC honorable minister, we're making a call of the immediate standardization and implementation of the rotation strategy or plan to all agencies based on poor performance based on the lack of top security clearance and unethical behavior. We believe that that will contribute on on safeguarding our country and making sure that integrity conduct and the way of work becomes non-negotiable.
I must say that honorable chair crime intelligence remains central to fighting crime. The recent dismantling of major candidories in Bumalanga northwest demonstrates the critical value of intelligenceled policing in the fight against organized crime. These operations which led to the seizure of drugs and manufacturing equipment worth hundreds of millions of rand were not accidental successes but the result of a coordinated work by crime intelligence and specialized law enforcement enforcement units. are law acting on gathered intelligence, surveillance and operation analysis.
They reflect the growing capacity of intelligence structures to detect and disrupt sophisticated criminal gate operating within our borders. The work of rebuilding this capability not simply about institutional reform. It is about restoring public trust. Is about ensuring that committ is fully protected.
is about strengthening the ability of a dem state to fulfill its basic responsibility, the safety and security of its people. The committee therefore will continue to exercise firm oversight over reforms over governance, initial capacity, accountability and effective use of public resources within the crime intelligence.
There are areas that need to be clarified here because at the beginning you can see the confusion but at the end there shall be clarity. If you look on from the from the MK party, he's lying here. And all you must know is that lies have got short legs. And to those who who who say this budget h reject it, they must know that they're rejecting it gambling with the protection and of of our people. Honorable member, please take a seat.
>> Honorable member, what is your point of order? Uh my point is order is um that the member on the podium has said that our member honorable MLO is lying.
You can look under 85, you can look under 87, 93, any one of them.
He's he's he's casting his personions upon our members specifically. So yeah, please rule under on that on honorable speaker.
>> Thank you very much, honorable member.
Honorable uh Zanga will you please withdraw?
>> In withdrawing I can say that is economical from the truth. Honorable house. Thank you so much.
>> No without any >> withdraw.
>> Honorable member will you please withdraw unconditionally?
>> There are no conditions. I will withdraw because the truth is in the people.
>> No withdraw. Sir withdraw. Withdraw.
Withdraw. Honorable come back and I did not give you an oppos opportunity to do a point of order. Do you >> honorable member?
>> Yeah. Can we just note that it's unc it's unconditional withdrawal please.
There must be no conditions no side notes and any outside sayings. He must withdraw. What he said was wrong and it's against the rules. Thank you >> honorable member. Honorable Nlonga did withdraw what he said.
The next speaker is the honorable minister in the presidency.
>> Thank you honorable house chair.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the stud of the uh joint standing committee on intelligence and for their continued support and their nonp partisan oversight which is very robust and is very clear from members who are not members of the committee that they'll rely on gossip on rumors on mistruth and misinformation and I'd like to clarify the house that there is no member of my staff who does not possess a top clearance security certificate.
I also want to clear to the house and South Africans who are listening that nobody has delayed the vetting of MKP members. The MKP member party delays its own members. As soon as we finalize their vetting, they withdraw the member.
So instead of vetting other senior officials, we continue to be vetting members of the of MKP.
And I do not know why honorable MO will want to talk about the virtues of of things that he's misinformed about when his own party sold young people to Russia to become mercenaries. And we asking where were the where was the states where were the services?
>> Will you please take a seat? There's a point of order. Honorable member, your point of order.
>> My point of order is that the minister is misleading the house. There was under no circumstances any people on MKP sold anybody to Russia. This is completely fallacy and it's and it's needs to >> liberal member that is not a point of order.
Honorable deputy chief.
>> Thank you very much honorable uh chairperson.
I don't think uh it's assisting this house just to call for a point of order without quoting the rule.
So we take that as a frivolous point of order. So whenever a member calls for a point of order they must quote the rule on which they are standing on. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much deputy chair or deputy chief. Uh the point of order that was raised was not a point of order. It was a point of debate and it is the rule in the house that when you raise on a point of order that you actually should quote the rule on which you raise.
Minister, you might continue please.
>> Thank you. So the intelligence services he was asking where were they? They were busy retaining the young men and women who were sold to Russia safely in the countries and we must remind their parents to be also sold their children >> and when refusing to give credit where credit is due in the speech that characterized honorable Maybeck's address. Knowing fully well the progress that has been made and acknowledging it, he decides to go and dig the past from which we are not proud of and from which we've been focused systematically to address in the in the intelligence structures. And my dear friend honorable Kalish which intelligence service were you talking about? because we have not had leaks in the intelligence service until the friends of the other people I will not name were in since the friends where other people were in the intelligence services left the services maybe honorable maybe we must ask my friends this other side to find us honorable Mr. The national sec the national security strategy honorable it was approved in 202425 our strat plan is informed by the national security strategy and the national intelligence priorities continuously we've been there so we are maybe we need to find a member in that one and SSA does not have a slash fund neither does it have a secret service our account and it goes also to to honorable Tazo Webster that our account is run by the national treasury if you so just so that people could know and honorable we appreciate your concerns but to open up intelligence services for public transparencies to weaken the national security of the country. However, we have instituted measures to make sure that there is transparency to the oversight committee and now we are institutionalizing those measures through the regulations on financial management and financial accountability which will work closely and we have undertaken to the joint standing committee of intelligence that will submit those by before end of this financial year. We are also pleased honorable person we are also pleased to know that your concerns that you have raised are a thing of the past they were long dated but we can't say foreigners are not allowed in South Africa it's only illegal undocumented foreign nation and I've indicated in my speech the measures we're undertaking to make sure that we secure our borders but also we deal with illegal migration and also to make sure the deportation of the people who are in the country undocumented I I left the country and I've reiterated in all my speeches that the budget voice speeches we've got 55,000 refugees in the country. We've got 82,000 asylum seekers in in the country. That number is not a threat and they allowed to stay here because they've been guned and they comply with our rules and I've never seen a member cast suspicion to other members of of of parliament. Honorable Adam says the joint the joint standing committee of intelligence which is multi-party nonpartisan is very is weak and I do not know why she's not a member herself and honorable caller you ask a question that you haven't answered to you know who vetted the the SUP's leadership you also know why the president requested the revetting of subs by SSA because we've got confidence in that I've spoken about them a reinforcement of our regulations to make sure that we are up to scratch and also do counter measures to make sure that those who are criminals within the subs can be arrested by referring their criminal activities because we have taken over this confidence in our system. We are bringing the vetting of other agencies including the request of minister of justice and constitutional development about the vetting of prosecutors. That work is work on hand and maybe I must ask why are you no longer a member of the committee?
Honorable Minister, your time is 658.
Thank you.
That concludes the debate and the business of this mini session. The mini plinary will now rise.
>> Recording stopped.
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