State Of The Nation: Nigeria At The Crossroads - Opeyemi Adamolekun | Jide Ologun | Pro.Anthony Kila

追加: 2026-05-17

[00:00:05]is wonderful.

[00:00:06]>> Welcome back to this live Sunday talk show here on the Arise News Channel. Now with me in the studio I have Mr. Jugun, legal practitioner, national development advocate and fellow Institute of Leadership Coaching and Strategy. He's also a fellow of the Nigerian Institute of Public Relations. Emmy Adam, former executive director, enough is enough and professor Antony Kila, director, Commonwealth Institute of Advanced and Professional Studies, Caps. Well, lady and gentlemen, uh, thank you very much.

[00:00:43]Uh, indeed last >> it was. Thank you. It was only Mr. Lug that showed up. But very quickly, we've had two guests. First pastor Aayoris Javo uh commenting on the state of the nation and then immediately after him we have energy expert Mr. and I'm currently commenting on recent economic uh uh development issues um Africa forward summit uh in Nairobi Kenya uh latest inflation figures the subject of poverty the issue of NNPCL engaging uh two Chinese companies to come and turn around rehabilitate uh pot and war refineries and then the Nigerian government saying it wants to borrow uh more money $1.5 billion uh from the uh World Bank which ADC says uh is a Ponzi scheme and people are saying what happened to all the money uh that we borrowed before. Now those basically are all the uh topics that we have looked at but I would like to start with you uh >> thank you I'll start with um pastor Jafur and I like how you engaged him because I mean yeah there are issues and I do agree with quite a number of the things he flagged borrowing poverty lack of direction not caring about the people but I mean the list is there but when you then ask him then what like okay these are then all the issues as um a shepherd of flock as they say what is then the hope and then he went on some more on on you cannot renew a hope that doesn't exist my challenge I would say with pastor for's framing it's not to say that there are no we don't have issues it's not to say that the primary responsibility of government is security and welfare is the fact that he offered no solutions is the fact that he also doesn't take responsibility for the fact that for many years the church actually did not encourage its members to participate in politics. So there was a very strong sense of because quote dirty um you can get killed. I mean we've heard stories of people getting killed just at primaries we haven't even entered election proper just doing primaries which is a within party situation people are being killed in Lagos in plateau some reports have said um so it's not to say that those things are not there and those challenges are not there it's the fact that the church which I mean yesterday I was having a conversation with someone and I said there were three primary institutions that by the very nature of the institutions should defend their realm in Nigeria one is academia Yeah, because you do research, you understand data, you have information.

[00:03:30]Two, the judiciary. Your role is to enforce law and ensure that the right thing is done and people who are doing wrong go to jail and people doing the right thing get justice. But both academia and the judiciary are struggling in Nigeria today. And finally, religious institutions who by very nature of the faith that we profess, there's certain things that we should not do. Uh there's certain things that way we should see things. And I don't think pastor Risha Jafur um rises up to that occasion in his talk in terms of what what Christianity as a faith encourages people to do. And there was then the conversation about poverty. I I mean I disagree with Mr. Kum. The point is not to say there's not poverty. The Bible is clear. There will always be the poor amongst us. But it also says what do you do with the poor? The point is not to increase the number of poor people. The point is to ensure they stay to the minimum. and when there are poor people to ensure that there are social services that that support them. So anyway I I'll land with just end with professor pastor Risha Jafur in saying that luckily the church has moved a bit from don't get involved in politics is dirty but the structure of the church is still very um how what's the word I look for in the in the way that we frame the faith for the church is that God will solve the problems. So and it also shows up in a language God day God will do it it is well in a very Nigerian sense of how we do Christianity but the truth of the matter is that the Bible says that Christians are salt and light and so the idea of the faith is that you enter places and you make a difference and you turn and you change things because of your belief system because you as he said because you have hope that you shall have a mansion in heaven then you're in earth you make and contribute to society in meaningful ways. So the church has a huge responsibility to play. Yes, there are lots of issues.

[00:05:17]Yes, there are issues that government should sort out. But the church also needs to that there are Christians.

[00:05:23]No matter what conversations we're having about corruption, about decisions that are made, there are Christians in leadership in Tinubu's administration, there Christians in leadership across state governments, across local governments. The question for someone like a pastor Risha Jafu is what are the Christians in government doing? And how are you as a leader in the faith supporting them?

[00:05:43]Okay. No comment on Mr. Dun's statement.

[00:05:47]>> Oh yeah. The one I talk I've spoke about poverty. The only other one I want to talk about really is um agreeing with him wholeheartedly on this MOU with the Chinese. Take us back 14 years when we had occupy Nigeria. Part of what triggered it was not just that we're removing full subsidy was the fact that we're throwing money and in fairness to the government at the time we were throwing out money in Oh no not fairness. This is not No, it's not government. We removed subsidy and part of the challenge at the time was that we're throwing money into turnaround maintenance. So every year we have a budget for turnaround maintenance.

[00:06:19]Between Bhari and Tinubu we've thrown out money. Mr. Feifala sued because several milestones of completion were not met. Then NPC came and said you know what nobody wants to help us fix these things. These things are irredeemable.

[00:06:31]Let's just sell them and move on. We're paying salaries for people not working by the way. And then now we've signed this agreement with Chinese companies that Mr. Doule said are uh questionable without the backing of the Chinese government which usually in a sense is well bad or good that's another different conversation but anyway so my point with this is that we really it's election time it really reads like another opportunity to get money out in trying to perpetually fix these refineries that refuse to be fixed and then Dangote that has a refinery that's working is struggling to get crude out so I don't know not adding Mr. L, >> thank you very much. I quite appreciate the positioning of pastor and I I'm glad that he at a point it was like he was expressing the fact that he's losing trust in the neck as umpire whether votes will count but he now retreated to say he encourages his members to to go out there and vote and by the grace of God in the redeemed Christian church of God I am the coordinator of the directorate of politics and governance in Lagos Province 27. And I'm happy when this opportunity came when the redeemed Christian to go realized that you need to be active in politics because my argument has always been that there is no separate market for the Pentecostals.

[00:08:00]We are all exposed to the economic environment and social environment. So we are mobilizing people not just to come out and vote. get registered if you're of age but also to participate.

[00:08:14]I've spoken to many that from your word level even though the politics going on there because the politics we play in Nigeria is such that the candidates will be prompted from the primary. So are you relevant there? I've been monitoring a primary held in Lagos recently and we read about the ranks and things like that. So we should all get involved and I give kudos to my sister here talking about the Christians who are in government.

[00:08:40]What light are they showing and I will bring that to the bigger picture of pastor talking about the poverty in the land and everything and the fear of borrowing. You know what proverbs 22:7 says is that the rich rules over the poor and the borrower is a slave to the lender. Yeah, I quite agree that you need to borrow. But for what? You see, you don't dig yourself into a hole as if you want to be buried alive. The the values of what you create with the money you borrow should be there for all to see. And it is development. So, and I want to connect that now with the plan to go to the World Bank and borrow. I did a research. The foundation of the World Bank is solving the crisis created by the second world war you know rebuilding Europe when about 44 nations came together the Brentwood uh conference I said let's see how we can raise funds to help then later it extended to some developing countries but with all we have borrowed what have we achieved because it's about sustainable development and if you look at the SDG of the United Nations that was active debated in around 2015 2016 and that will be evaluated in 2030. It is you know zero tolerance for poverty for hunger and things like that. How far have we done? And that is why on the platform of public relations the perception of the people is that oh we need this money for election. I was discussing with someone earlier today and um he told me the money is there amongst politicians and pastor mentioned the fact that it's as if there are two worlds in Nigeria. the world of the politicians where there are no problems and the world of the citizens where there are issues and on the issue of hope I've mentioned it and I'm suggesting against the president to look at the word hope hop e the H stands for help you need to help your citizens you need to develop them like she zed did in the UAE when you develop the people you move the direction of development then the O stands for opportunities create opportunities for them and you can check section 16 of Nigerian con 1999 as amended for that the P talks about power let power be in the hands of the citizens that is what our conition says sovereignty belongs to the people and the E is for empowerment and you need to go out there how many citizens are empowered to flourish now particularly when we have about 140 million citizens within the poverty uh window so I hope that those who should will listen to it. And finally, on the scale of leadership within the governance system, if you read 2 Corinthians 8:9, 2 Corinthians 8:9 says, "Even though Jesus was rich, he became poor so that through his poverty, you know, the people can be rich. So the leadership we are talking about that we bring about sustainable development is leadership through service." The likes of Mandela has shown us Linuay in Singapore and we look forward to that season when it will not just be about polit because right now the desperation is obvious. And coming to NNPC, yes, I totally align with NECA demanding that NPC should try and explain what happened to about 24 25 billion US on turnaround maintenance that has failed to turn things around and the new MUS we are planning. But I think that that sector of our life has become a scam. As far back as 1977 or so, the first is it $2.8 $8 billion that disappeared from the NNPC account was traced to Midland Bank in the UK and everything fizzled away and since then it's been one and this NNPC was established on the 1st of April 1977 to deliver prosperity to the citizens.

[00:12:48]Where are we and Dangote has shown that it's possible to maximize our oil and my recommendation to the government also is to look at Norway.

[00:12:59]Norway relies heavily on oil and gas and through the proceeds of oil and gas and the prevention of corruption Norway today has the largest sovereign wealth in the world about $2.2 2 trillion US you know amass amassed wealth for generations on born while it may be that we are mortgaging the future of generations on board because it's easy to say oh our borrowing ratio to GDP or whatever who we pay these loans in fact pastor Resaur even reduce the total indebtedness of this country it's now in the region of about 159 trillion right it was about 12.12 trillion in March 2015 so we need to really maximize what we have and talking about Macron now offering access uh to maybe risk-free uh loan must Africa can continue to borrow and I totally agree with Mr. Dan lead that you see France itself is in trouble right now. Some of the colonies they held are really jumping out to say we want to stand on our own. But please let's go and read the pronouncements of Macron. Macron has advised Africa that you don't continue to blame the colonialist who colonizes you. And he's not only saying we open up access to borrowing. He's saying that investors also should come to Africa to invest in France. So we need to look at that balance and he did not deny the fact that when this colonialist case they even stole our artifacts which some of them are returning. So why should Africa that has about 40% of the whole resources of the world even though Africa has about 1.5 billion in population compared to the 2.8 billion population of the world? Why must Africa remain in poverty? And that's a question I throw on the table of leadership.

[00:14:48]>> Okay. Uh professor killer. Well, let me start from the international scene and I think the first thing I want to say is where um Mr. Along stops from. The reason why Africa has 40% of the world resources and is still poor is that it is not resources that make poam wealth.

[00:15:06]It is human capital development. It is development. It is leadership. So if you lack leadership, if you lack human capital development, regardless of what you are, you're still going to be poor.

[00:15:16]When you mention Norway, you're very right. But one must learn that Norway has a lot of oil resources. But nobody refers to Norway as an oil rich country.

[00:15:24]You talk about them in terms of social welfare. You talk about in terms of development, security, education, you know, a good life. What they've done is that they've used their oil, invested in it, built, used it to build like you know the Emirates have done. So the issue of poverty is that to the summit in um in Kenya I mean we call it an African summit but the the summit in Kenya is like a state hosting NBA but it's an NBA show.

[00:15:53]>> It is.

[00:15:53]>> So you know it was it happened in Kenya but it's a France show and why did France do it? France is trying to gain a position you know it has geopolitical problem because of the Sahel countries.

[00:16:04]There's a lot to be said about it but let us go to the Nigerian issue. I think for Nigeria it presents an opportunity um it exposes a limit and it also warns us about something the opportunity is that with a new relationship I don't think any Nigerian president I've spent so much time with France and in France like presidentu so we have a new alignment that actually worries some people um in in in Westminister in England but you know we have a new alignment and France recognizes it and because France needs Africa in a new way Nigeria has an opportunity to reshape itself in a new world order. We talk about the people who are in France and what they said. I am very interested in the people who are not there the Sahel people because those are the the spots Nigeria is trying to take today belong to those people and whilst it might be good for Nigeria is also a warning. We have an issue that other African countries do not have visual security transational problem and we have to balance our relationship with France because if we are becoming the friends of France when those people abandon in France and we still need those people for security we have some balance we need to strike. M is right I think but Africans also need to wake up. Um you cannot rule away colonialism but it's not all colonialism problem anymore.

[00:17:21]Opportunities are there. We just need the kind of leadership and human capital development to tap into it. That is what we need. Then to the issue of debt. I understand that morally and perhaps religiously you know is um people are legit to debt. Mr. Lush quoted the Bible. Let me quote Shakespeare you know that says be neither borrower nor lender be. So but but again Shakespeare is neither a finance expert nor nor economics expert. I don't think Jesus did very well with his finances either.

[00:17:51]He did miracle. So what >> financial problem though?

[00:17:55]>> No, but you know it wasn't I don't think he put himself in a place to give lessons on finance. Anyway, he was leading another kind of life. He wasn't going through that. But the point here is that yes, it is difficult to manage macroeconomy without borrowing.

[00:18:09]You know the issue Nigerians have is not really the amount of borrowing. Let us put it. There's a moral allergy to it.

[00:18:17]There's a valoral issue with borrowing.

[00:18:19]You don't go home to your family problems. I have borrowed more money and they're happy with you. You know, you're they turn you to you, at least in my part of the country, being a borrower is not is not something that you go borrowing.

[00:18:31]>> Yes. Ghosts are soaring.

[00:18:33]>> Exactly. So those are the kind of traditional things we have against borrowing. So I think there's an underlying moral allergy to borrowing.

[00:18:39]>> But more importantly, the issue Nigeria has is the purpose of borrowing.

[00:18:43]>> Exactly.

[00:18:44]>> That is a major issue. So there's issue of purpose, there is issue of trust.

[00:18:48]There is an example of the purpose issue. When Sata Fabala was prime minister, he wrote a letter applying for a loan that showed exactly what he was going to do with that loan, how he was going to get the money back, when he was going to repay it back and what the rest will be. That is not an example from Taiwan or Liquan country. That is a Nigerian example. We just shows that we've left the good ways for this strange way. The other issue is trust.

[00:19:16]And there I go to pastor reg his opening statement when I was talking to you Dr. He says, I quote him, "There's a dichotomy in Nigeria." He said, you know, to use his word, dichotomy is not exactly right. But I guess what he mean, >> here's the thing. This dichotomy is a leadership issue. Even pastors lead a life that does not correspond to their followers. You know, they have all these golden suit. I think they have special tailor those kind of golden things they wear that they that they live in this world, you know. But I say that, you know, we were talking to you because actually I agree with Christ. I think the duty of the church is to denounce is to pers to commend and to condemn. When people say like my panelist here say that the church should encourage people to organically enter in politics. It sounds good but it's bad.

[00:20:03]>> Why is it bad?

[00:20:04]>> It is bad. You see because the idea of democracy is an individual issue. You don't go there by gender. You don't go there by ethnicity. You don't go there by religion. The moment you go with those things, you're bringing a baggage.

[00:20:15]It becomes a sharing of power. That's where the turn by turn thing starts from the church should be present on the political scene with value. The essence of the church ecclesia >> is universal is to bring you don't need to be a Christian to know that thou shall not steal.

[00:20:30]>> You don't need to be a Christian you know thou shall not lie. The role of the church is a standard for the church to say >> thou shall not steal. We suspect that man is stealing. you, our brethren, that you're minister, commissioner, governor, what you're doing or saying is not Christlike. Let us tell you in private and if you don't listen, we might as well tell you in public.

[00:20:51]>> The church should be for everybody because the kingdom of the church is not of this world. Their interest should be the values, >> not the organizing, not Mr. Lugu's job to be having a directorate of politics in church. I think it's a dangerous nonsense >> because that is the origin of turn by turn of let gender let ethnicity then they say the governor is a Christian the deputy must be a Muslim total dangerous nonsense >> until we're able to get into politics into democratic space as individuals >> who care about road you're very right when you say that or was it you when you say the >> the price of bread or petrol is not different from Catholic or Muslim or this thing but for them reason it shouldn't matter Whether you're a Christian or not, we should just look at what is prosic, what is functional, what fits 2 plus 3 goals 5. That is the rob of politics, not >> sorry. I need to respond to this and I think it's important and I hear you and I do agree. I didn't think I did, but I do agree. But I think what's important to note is from where the church is coming from, from where it's trying to go. If the church as an institution for many years has said there's a in a sense a separation of church and state so Christians should not go into politics if you now then understand >> but I tell you sorry to interrupt you I don't think the church has ever held that position maybe I'll say >> but never really said >> but they do that it's a statement of fact and Mr. Lug can be >> is it true they told you not to join politics >> you should have told me let me finish okay let me let me stand by the one I meant it's a so Mr. who wants to be saying yeah you see it is a very it's true with then at least I'll speak for the Pentecostal church which I'm familiar with there's that very strong narrative that because of um the the stories that we hear of oultic people going to swear and all of that that there's a sense that it's a a a dangerous place for people of faith to go your faith will be tested there's corruption so therefore stay away now if the church is now shifting in its positions recognizing to your point that it is for everybody it's you the values that you bring to the table then there must be I guess a bit of an intentionality of having a directory that's then trying to help you bridge the gap between don't go to now you can go hold on one second hold on and then the second bit of that is the point around the values that you taking and what you then do and that's why I said by the very nature of your faith you don't need to be a Christian to know that thou shalt not steal but the fact that you are a Christian and it is part of the faith you profess there's a greater Exactly there's a greater responsibility on you to emulate that or to >> I totally agree with you and I also want to say this and this is my declaring the Pentecostal people not to journey because it's dirty the leaders of the church were very happy to commune with the leaders and that is the disingenuity of the house very quickly before our time runs out let's take this subject and its security US and Nigerian forces have killed so the report senior ISIS commander and President Donald Trump announced the defeat. He named the target as Abu Bilal al- Minuki, second in command of ISIS globally. President Bahameu also confirmed the killing. But on the same day, suspected Boo Haram terrorists invaded the school in Boronu state. Many pupils were abducted. The deputy speaker of the Bonu assembly says the terrorist struck barely a few minutes after troops on patrol left the community. In a separate attack, government also invaded some schools in O state, abducting an unspecified number of students. Well, some reports say 45, some quote 42. The contrasting events of the same day raise difficult questions for security forces. A major terrorist commander is eliminated. Yet in two separate regions, school children are still being taken in broad daylight. uh let me come back to you because I don't know whether I will see you next week.

[00:24:54]Let me maximize to this opportunity.

[00:24:57]>> Thank you. It >> it's so we keep we say this a lot I think Mr. Lugu and I that the primary purpose of government is the security and welfare of the people and one of the things that we've seen if you take chibo girls as a marker and that's 2014 is that that sense has gradually declined not only in government's responsibility to its people but also the general sense of do we really care is is anything happening and I'll take the abduction in Bonu that happened Friday morning unless I'm mistaken as we sit here nothing has been said by either uh defense the governor or the presidency. So these things then become so normal that we just move on. I mean chibi happened literally the whole world stopped.

[00:25:41]>> Nigeria stopped and the world followed us in stopping because it was it was it was shocking. It was this it was what all the words that you want to use. But now these ones are even those were secondary school students. The list I just saw from premium times is that a lot of these the abduction in Bono on Friday was primary school. So even talking younger children that were abducted and governor hasn't said a word. Senator Andum said something. It was first I first saw it in foreign newspapers. A Jazzer Reuters all yesterday before Nigerian papers started picking up. Again, one of the things that's circulating is that media has been told to be um circumspect around how they report this thing. So they're not given terrorists a platform. But really though I people are being kidnapped, people are being killed. So, not giving terrorists a platform, but it continues quietly. Is that our plan for solving this problem? And the front page of this day, Trump Tinubu confirmed killing of ISIS leader. Somebody dug up a tweet from 2024 where the same guy with the same name was supposedly killed. Um, as someone said, Shakaro was also >> Shak not Shakar. My apologies, sir.

[00:26:49]>> Was killed several times.

[00:26:50]>> My apologies. Shaka was killed several times before he was finally killed. Now I think there's also a responsibility given where we are in the country and the challenges when that is known that the government frontloads with that information by saying that in 2024 it was reported that this person was killed. We realize that that's not the case. However, this time we have confirmed yada yada bloody bloody and do that. It's election season. Let's be clear. And is it not to say that people will not use insecurity and violence to make the government look bad?

[00:27:23]Definitely. But it is then the government's responsibility knowing that that is the case to show that it actually cares. It is very easy to make this government look bad visa vising security because it has been a pattern since it came into office. So it's nothing new. They're not just trying if you're not trying to make you look bad, people will be like, "No, that's not that's not the case." But since 2023, you haven't cared. So even if someone is trying to make you look bad now, you've laid a very good foundation for it.

[00:27:50]Again, let's not forget it's election season. Nigerians lives are very valuable and as we are seeing in some of the primary results that are coming out, people are choosing to vote for very interesting reasons.

[00:28:01]>> Mr. Logan, >> yes, you know, for Trump is a huge victory because according to Trump, this almani has been traced is the second in command in the ISIS. He's branded a terrorist. So, it didn't matter to Trump wherever he was. But he's been taken out in the Chad basin with collaboration with Nigerian uh troop. That's a good one. And um I read about the abdu abduction of the students in New York state the same manner coming on motorcycles you know matching some into the bush carrying some away and I just pray that we rise up to this occasion and it's what we are saying when this h this man of boo haram started around 2002 with that ideology I was one of those shouting that if anyone is saying he is against western civilization we need to be careful about it. Look at where we are today. So, but I also must acknowledge the fact that the government must have woken up now to know that you must bombard bombard these people headlong. And finally, it's becoming more dangerous spreading across the country particularly when I read about 33 kings fled their palaces in quir state because bandits have been writening writing threat threats to them >> and those are Euroba kings.

[00:29:19]>> Do does it matter?

[00:29:24]I like to say traditional >> you know and you know >> does that include a king in your community and you don't have >> so we pulled that to the concept of democracy section 14 subsection 2 of the Nigerian convention 1999 says the security and the welfare of the citizens shall be the primary primary not secondary not tertiary purpose of government. So wish the government let's hear from the >> well I think well but I think I think you know this idea of the you know it's a very bad coincidence that he killed um an ISIS leader again and then some people went kidnapping again >> problem that they was a witch guy yesterday so they killed again it's like so what you killed one it shows us terrorism is now an institution so you take away the leader the institution remains while the legal institution of the state is weak but I want say something two things number one is that it's very sad as you pointed out that we become numb to these things so in a way we have normalized abnormality but there's also one thing and I start doing mere ka even though I do not consider myself guilty of it but I think some people in this country and history and their conscience should be with them they instrumentalized terrorism against Jonathan's government >> and I think it is an evil that must be condemned in this country including those of us who supported those people without having those intention. Shame on all of us because in reality Nigerian elite used something to outdo a government. They got into power and they've not been able to do better.

[00:31:04]These are the issues that we really need to think about.

[00:31:07]>> Dr. You go off please. I mean I think this is also an important thing to note this pattern consistent pattern of soldiers retreating just before terrorists arrive. And you see it over and over and over again. We've said this on this platform several times that when you have a list of people that you are in government to your point who you say backing terrorists and nothing has happened to them. This is what you this is what you get.

[00:31:29]>> This is what you get.

[00:31:31]>> Okay. I'll just take one more topic.

[00:31:32]Maybe it's only prof. >> Well, okay. I'm being told that we've run out of time. Anyway, thank you.

[00:31:42]Thank you, Mr. Lug. And thank you, Professor Kila. and I look forward to seeing all of you again next Sunday.

[00:31:49]You've been watching this day live, the Sunday talk show here on Arise News. I'm Ruben Abati. From my entire team here in Lagos is bye for now and thank you very much for watching.